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Sam and Bucky...Sitting In a Tree?: Speculation with Spoilers

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Speculate away in here! It's okay to discuss what's happened in the MCU movies and other properties here - it will be a grey area when it comes to upcoming projects and some original source material, so please use best judgement, or PM me, the forum mod, if you have questions!

@saoirse

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I've heard they're going to get into what it means for a black man to carry the mantle of Captain America. If that is the case, I hope they bring in Isaiah Bradley.

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On 3/9/2021 at 4:36 PM, AimingforYoko said:

I've heard they're going to get into what it means for a black man to carry the mantle of Captain America. If that is the case, I hope they bring in Isaiah Bradley.

That would actually be pretty interesting. I read some or maybe all of that series back when it came out (can't remember) and the idea of other super soldiers makes sense with the MCU. Especially since Howard Stark had some new serum with him when he died. When you factor in that the government was infiltrated by Hydra then using Black soldiers as unsuspecting test subjects for experiments makes would totally work.

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I had assumed that Miki Ishikawa, the woman Bucky had his Battleship date with that they left unnamed the whole episode (not a good look, show) would not be seen again, but according to the IMDB cast and crew list she's in all six episodes. I'm hoping/assuming she's not just some fledgling love interest where they drag the courtship out as some plot point. I'm trying not follow the potential plot rabbit holes the way I did with WandaVision, so I will just remain openly curious as to her character.

I'm also disappointed to see that Danny Ramirez (Torres) is only listed for one episode, as is Don Cheadle. Rhodey I can see being a cameo, but I really liked Torres and had hoped there would be more of him. I can't talk myself into thinking that the IMDB cast list is being manipulated to prevent spoilers, so will have to take it as fact. Ah well.

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This speculation feels way out there, and while I have never read the comics I have read fanfiction written by people who have read the comics, so I know that Bucky's sister Rebecca Barnes ended up marrying some guy with the last name of Proctor. Emma Caufield's character on WandaVision was named Sarah Proctor (by marriage). Since the first episode confirmed that Bucky did have a sister, Sarah's husband could be Bucky's grand-nephew or something. The way I guess things, probably not, but it caught my attention!

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2 hours ago, Abra said:

I had assumed that Miki Ishikawa, the woman Bucky had his Battleship date with that they left unnamed the whole episode (not a good look, show) would not be seen again, but according to the IMDB cast and crew list she's in all six episodes. I'm hoping/assuming she's not just some fledgling love interest where they drag the courtship out as some plot point. I'm trying not follow the potential plot rabbit holes the way I did with WandaVision, so I will just remain openly curious as to her character.

I'm also disappointed to see that Danny Ramirez (Torres) is only listed for one episode, as is Don Cheadle. Rhodey I can see being a cameo, but I really liked Torres and had hoped there would be more of him. I can't talk myself into thinking that the IMDB cast list is being manipulated to prevent spoilers, so will have to take it as fact. Ah well.

IMDB cast lists are notoriously unreliable because they can be edited by fans. Before all episodes of a show have aired, the number of episodes each actor has against their name doesn't really mean anything. I've seen shows where the lead actor only had each episode added to their credits as they aired, while other actors much further down the cast were listed for every episode in advance because they had optimistic fans (and then had to have episodes removed when it transpired that they weren't actually in that many eps of the season after all). So unless someone from the production team has told us in an interview somewhere exactly how many episodes each supporting character is in, we don't know for sure and neither does IMDB.

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I want to know when and how Sam gets the shield back. Trailers show them both practicing with it and it looks like they’re in New Orleans while doing so. I’m super curious about that one. I hope Sam gets a chance to tell Bearded Government Dickweed to “shut the hell up” if he tries to raise a stink about it too.

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15 hours ago, Dandesun said:

I want to know when and how Sam gets the shield back. Trailers show them both practicing with it and it looks like they’re in New Orleans while doing so. I’m super curious about that one. I hope Sam gets a chance to tell Bearded Government Dickweed to “shut the hell up” if he tries to raise a stink about it too.

Wakanda repairs the one Cap used against Thanos and gives it to him?

He (and/or Bucky) beats the holy living fuck out of Captaint America (typo or not, that's sticking around for a while) and take it?

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FWIW, Miki Ishikawa's joining the cast of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier warranted a Deadline article in 2019...

‘The Falcon And The Winter Soldier’ Adds ‘Reef Break’ Star Desmond Chiam And ‘The Terror’s Miki Ishikawa
By Dino-Ray Ramos     December 13, 2019
https://deadline.com/2019/12/the-falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-desmond-chiam-miki-ishikawa-disney-plus-marvel-studios-1202808396/ 

Quote

... True to Marvel and Disney form, details about the specific details about the story as well as Chiam and Ishikawa’s roles have been kept under lock and key. We’ll just have to wait when the show debuts on Disney+ on August 2020 to find out.

If her character Leah does turn up in multiple episodes, then I would bet that there's some twist, like maybe she turns out to be a member of the Flag-Smashers, or that she has some bigger role to play in the future.

I tried to find out if there is a Marvel comics character named Leah, but the only ones I found were: (1) Leah (Earth-15513), an Asgardian with a connection to Secret Wars; and (2) Leah (Earth-616), an Asgardian with a connection to Loki. 

But I'm probably over-thinking it.

Edited by tv echo
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19 hours ago, Dandesun said:

I want to know when and how Sam gets the shield back. Trailers show them both practicing with it and it looks like they’re in New Orleans while doing so. I’m super curious about that one. I hope Sam gets a chance to tell Bearded Government Dickweed to “shut the hell up” if he tries to raise a stink about it too.

And to Ross, if he has the nerve to show his ugly face in this series. 

I can't wait to catch up with Sharon. The articles say she's more bitter and less idealistic after everything she's sacrificed, and I'm all for that, but I don't want them to turn her into a villain.

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20 hours ago, Dandesun said:

Bearded Government Dickweed 

Likely named Hayward....

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11 hours ago, paigow said:

Likely named Hayward....

Much more likely to be named

Spoiler

John Walker.

 

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I'll probably hate it when it happens, but my guess for what brings Sam and Bucky together is that the Flag-smashers do some other robbery thing that gets Bucky's friend Yori badly injured or killed.  Sam is already aware of the Flag-smashers, so he and Bucky come together to take them down.

Edited by johntfs
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In a recent interview, Wyatt Russell revealed whether or not his character is a super soldier and hinted that he will have his own complicated story..

.Spoilers! Marvel's new Captain America talks 'Falcon and the Winter Soldier' role
Brian Truitt   Mar 19, 2021
https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2021/03/19/falcon-and-winter-soldier-debuts-new-captain-america-spoilers/4741095001/ 

Malcolm Spellman also indicated in recent interviews that the new Captain America will have his own struggles and revealed what ideology he will represent...

The Falcon and the Winter Soldier team tees up what's next for that masked militia
By Nick Romano   March 19, 2021
https://ew.com/tv/the-falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-episode-1-flag-smashers/ 

Exclusive Interview: ‘The Falcon And The Winter Soldier’ Writer Malcolm Spellman On The Next Captain America And More
BY TANZIM PARDIWALLA    6 DAYS AGO
https://in.mashable.com/entertainment/20948/exclusive-interview-the-falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-writer-malcolm-spellman-on-the-next-captain-am 

I speculate that by the end of the series, the new Captain America will voluntarily give up the shield.

Edited by tv echo
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When will this series openly acknowledge that Bucky really has nothing to atone for?  And that he had committed all of his crimes, against his will, due to be brainwashed?  Because this whole "Bucky has to make amends" plot point is really starting to irritate me.

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2 hours ago, LJones41 said:

When will this series openly acknowledge that Bucky really has nothing to atone for?  And that he had committed all of his crimes, against his will, due to be brainwashed?  Because this whole "Bucky has to make amends" plot point is really starting to irritate me.

It already has.  The only person forcing Bucky to "make amends" is Bucky.  He lied to his therapist about it, probably because she would have told him that it was an unhealthy thing to pursue.

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On 3/21/2021 at 7:26 AM, tv echo said:

FWIW, Miki Ishikawa's joining the cast of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier warranted a Deadline article in 2019...

‘The Falcon And The Winter Soldier’ Adds ‘Reef Break’ Star Desmond Chiam And ‘The Terror’s Miki Ishikawa
By Dino-Ray Ramos     December 13, 2019
https://deadline.com/2019/12/the-falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-desmond-chiam-miki-ishikawa-disney-plus-marvel-studios-1202808396/ 

If her character Leah does turn up in multiple episodes, then I would bet that there's some twist, like maybe she turns out to be a member of the Flag-Smashers, or that she has some bigger role to play in the future.

I tried to find out if there is a Marvel comics character named Leah, but the only ones I found were: (1) Leah (Earth-15513), an Asgardian with a connection to Secret Wars; and (2) Leah (Earth-616), an Asgardian with a connection to Loki. 

But I'm probably over-thinking it.

After knowing Imdb has more episodes listed for her, the date reads differently on rewatch. Her questions were too on the nose and she went into great detail about Yori and grief, beyond just sympathy, like she had a personal experience.

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31 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

After knowing Imdb has more episodes listed for her, the date reads differently on rewatch. Her questions were too on the nose and she went into great detail about Yori and grief, beyond just sympathy, like she had a personal experience.

Maybe she does.  Figure the murder of Yori's kid happened at least ten years ago and probably longer Captain America: Civil War was likely 8 years ago by now and figure that Captain America: The Winter Soldier was a couple years before that.  Akie Kotabe (Yori's son) is 40.  Doing the +/- 5 years for character age, he could have been 35 to 45 or so when he was killed.  Miki Ishikawa is 29 years old and her character, Leah is likely on the -5 for age, maybe mid-20s.  Leah isn't Yori's grand-daughter, since that would have come up, but... maybe she could have been.

Suppose R.J. had been dating Leah's mother (who was single at the time) and it was getting serious.  He hasn't told his father about it yet but plans to after this Moscow trip.  But perhaps he has told his potential fiance and her young daughter about his dad, so Leah knows about Yori.  Then Moscow happens and R. J. is killed.  No wedding.  No new father and grandfather for young Leah.

I have no idea how, but I think Leah knows who Bucky is and probably that he's the one who killed R. J.  However, I think it's likely that Leah also knows something about the HYDRA brain-washing, so she was subtly pushing Bucky about the murder to see who he was now.

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New Marvel Select 7" The Falcon And Winter Soldier Falcon Figure Revealed - SPOILERS
Jay Cochran - March 24, 2021
https://marvelousnews.com/252-28374

Quote

Thanks to a heads up from Alan we have images that come via the Official Disney store at taoba, for new Shop Disney Marvel Select 7" exclusive figures.

Spoiler

... The second figure however is new. It appears to be based on Falcon from the new Disney+ The Falcon And The Winter Soldier series. You can see the logo for the show on the packaging. The figure shows him in a Falcon Cap outfit very similar to what he wore in the comics when he took over for Captain America there. Based on the oufit we almost thought this was a comic book based figure, however the Captain America shield included with the figure clearly has the MCU markings on it as seen in the new series. So we assume this is MCU based. The figure description on the site does not distinguish if its comic based or MCU based.

The figure comes with the shield, removable wings and pack as well as multiple hands. The figures looked to be priced at $45 each. You may recall back in January we saw an image of a Hasbro Titan Series figure pop up online showing Sam in a similar outfit from the show.

 


And here's the new Winter Soldier action figure (from Sideshow and Hot Toys)...

winter-soldier_marvel_gallery_605a11dfd7

(pic source)

Edited by tv echo
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Is Ross The Powerbroker?

Are those scenes of Sam throwing the shield into the tree from the season finale? Or is Walker going to die soon?

 

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3 hours ago, paigow said:

Is Ross The Powerbroker?

 

If so he needs to have every square inch of his ass beaten to a pulp. Hell, that needs to happened even if he isn’t power broker.

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I'd be surprised if it's not someone we've already met. Ross seems like a good bet, if William Hurt is available for the show.

I do appreciate that the Flag Smashers are looking more like idealistic vigilantes, crusading against the evils of tribalism than they are outright villains.

I thought that Erin Kellyman would be playing the MCU version of Sin, who was an outright villain and psychopath groomed by the Red Skull, but it looks like she's more like her Solo character.

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I think all that bit on the "Good Morning America" segment about Walker being at the top of everything is a cue that he's already obtained some version of the Super-Soldier Serum - possibly from the Power Broker even before he joined the military.  Meanwhile, I suspected that the Flag-smasher also got their serum from the PB - but likely with the "five-finger discount."

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I am really confused, some people keep calling Walker "US Agent" in addition to him being the new Captain America. Wyatt Russell is playing two different Marvel characters?

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3 hours ago, johntfs said:

I think all that bit on the "Good Morning America" segment about Walker being at the top of everything is a cue that he's already obtained some version of the Super-Soldier Serum - possibly from the Power Broker even before he joined the military.  Meanwhile, I suspected that the Flag-smasher also got their serum from the PB - but likely with the "five-finger discount."

The Flag Smashers could well be an enemy manufactured, or at least enabled, by someone who wants to reassert the norms of 21st century geopolitics. To unite the American people and get them all to work together to rebuild the country, you need an 'other' that's a big enough threat to convince people to put aside their grievances and feelings of disenfranchisement.

That's not to say these Flag Smasher characters aren't all completely sincere in their beliefs, they just might be getting played, and set up to be the bad guys in America's resurgence.

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

I am really confused, some people keep calling Walker "US Agent" in addition to him being the new Captain America. Wyatt Russell is playing two different Marvel characters?

John Walker was introduced to be Captain America in the 1980s, when Steve gave up the identity for a while. But when Steve took the mantle back, Walker took the new identity of USAgent, another masked, patriotic superhero.

I think Marvel might have also retconned Walker into being the man who replaced Captain America after Steve fell into icy water and was frozen in the last days of the Second World War, to explain why there were Cap stories in the 1950s, built around fighting evil Commies.

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37 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

The Flag Smashers could well be an enemy manufactured, or at least enabled, by someone who wants to reassert the norms of 21st century geopolitics. To unite the American people and get them all to work together to rebuild the country, you need an 'other' that's a big enough threat to convince people to put aside their grievances and feelings of disenfranchisement.

That's not to say these Flag Smasher characters aren't all completely sincere in their beliefs, they just might be getting played, and set up to be the bad guys in America's resurgence.

I think the Flag-smashers are little too "small ball" for something like that.  It's not like they're some vast global movement as far as we can tell.  They seem to mostly be a group of young trying to help other people in need, albeit through less than legal means.  I suspect that them appearing on U.S. Intelligence agencies' radar is due to the Power Broker using contacts to try to hound and harass them so he can take them down/out. 

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The conversation is drifting and starting to discuss too much from the comics. Please stick to the episode and take expanded comics talk to the appropriate topic(s). Thank you.

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After seeing the 2nd episode, I've got to say I'm gonna be mighty disappointed if there is not a conversation from Sam and Bucky about how betrayed they feel by what Steve did.  On the one hand they would both be happy for their friend but on the other...

We can tell from Endgame that Steve and Bucky had a conversation but he didn't tell his other best friend shit. Then decided to put on him the taking up of the CA mantle. Not to mention leaving Sam with his traumatized bf Bucky. Which is really not Sam's responsibility but we know he does care because he was sending Bucky texts.

Then you have Bucky who we can see is barely hanging on. If he doesn't have some real conflicting feelings about Steve leaving then I call bullshit on that.  So where is Steve? He's clearly not around. Is he dead or more likely, did he go back to his new timeline where he and Peggy may have some kids and possibly the rescued version of Bucky. While leaving the traumatized one behind. Ooo, the more I think about it, the more fucked up it is.

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Agreed on everything, @festivus

I hope the show lets us see that Sam and Bucky are (negatively) affected by what Steve did, but given how much M&M and the Russos have been spinning what happened as a wondrous thing, I don't know how much they'll go into it.

And I wonder just how much Sam and Bucky know about what Steve did. My guess would be they just have a vague idea that he used the Infinity Stones in a way that allowed him to live a happy married life elsewhere (without them), but if they knew that what he actually purposefully did was to create an alternate timeline solely so he could clone another human being in order to have a relationship with her?
Not sure how cool they'd be with it. And ugh you're right, if Bucky does know or have an idea of what really happened, he must think alt-Bucky is the more preferable Bucky to Steve (or he's torturing himself thinking that maybe Steve didn't even bother to save alt-Bucky). And Steve was totally cool with not having Sam in his life for 80 years. And...yeah, I'm getting worked up. Fuck Endgame Steve.

And it's probably very unlikely, but I wonder if there will be any mention of the Time Variance Authority in relation to what Steve did, as maybe a little nod or link to the Loki show.

Edited by Abra · Reason: Accidentally hit submit way too early
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1 hour ago, festivus said:

After seeing the 2nd episode, I've got to say I'm gonna be mighty disappointed if there is not a conversation from Sam and Bucky about how betrayed they feel by what Steve did.  On the one hand they would both be happy for their friend but on the other...

Dr. Raynor: James, shifting the blame to a dead guy is not constructive...

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Seconding everything @festivus and @Abra said, and adding how shitty it was to Sharon too. Like Steve was able to track down Nat and bust out all the other Avengers and be on the run for two years, but he apparently didn’t even try to track down Sharon?! Even if they’re going to pretend the kiss never happened, all that talk about how Peggy was the “love of his life” (barf) and he thought it would be better to create his own alternate life with her instead of track down her niece and get her to safety after she became an enemy of the state for helping him?! Fuck Endgame Steve!!!

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22 hours ago, Abra said:

I hope the show lets us see that Sam and Bucky are (negatively) affected by what Steve did, but given how much M&M and the Russos have been spinning what happened as a wondrous thing, I don't know how much they'll go into it.

Yeah. You know, it's not like I didn't want Steve to have a happy ending, up until I saw Endgame I was convinced he was going to die. But what you do has consequences. As I've been saying all along, the reverse snap could have returned the world to the moment of the first. Tony didn't want that and while it's understandable, he's not around to have to deal with the consequences of that decision now is he. Same for Steve. If this show doesn't show Sam and Bucky's anger about that then I will seriously side-eye it. So far, they've been doing a good job, we shall see. 

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22 hours ago, Abra said:

Fuck Endgame Steve.

 

45 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Fuck Endgame Steve!!!

Does this mean Walker is no longer #1 on the Internet Hate List????

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9 minutes ago, paigow said:

Does this mean Walker is no longer #1 on the Internet Hate List????

Heh, I actually like Walker so far (while fully realizing that could change in an instant).

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I don't hate Walker yet, I'm just waiting to see what happens. When Everett Ross (not to be confused with Dickweed Ross) and Woo were introduced inn the MCU they seemed like douchey government tools, but when they got bigger parts in Black Panther and WandaVision it turned out that they were actually decent guys. So it could go either way for Walker.

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31 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

So it could go either way for Walker.

Unless there is another timeline jumping Steve with another shield, Walker is going to lose his shield by dying or shame...

Edited by paigow

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4 hours ago, paigow said:

Unless there is another timeline jumping Steve with another shield, Walker is going to lose his shield by dying or shame...

He could also give it up willingly. Or Rhodey pops back up and reveals that Tony made several backup shields just in case...

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Any guesses? ...

THE FALCON AND THE WINTER SOLDIER: It Appears The Series WILL Include A Big Surprise Cameo In Upcoming Episode
Josh Wilding    March 29, 2021
https://www.comicbookmovie.com/tv/marvel/falcon_and_the_winter_soldier/the-falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-it-appears-the-series-will-include-a-big-surprise-cameo-in-upcoming-episode-a183580#gs.wwdosi

Quote

In an interview which surfaced yesterday, The Falcon and The Winter Soldier showrunner Malcolm Spellman teased a big surprise character in the upcoming fifth episode

Now, an eagle-eyed fan on Reddit has pointed to an Instagram post from Atlanta Filming - a well-known paparazzo who takes most of the photos we see from Marvel Studios TV shows and movies in Atlanta, Georgia - from last year.

In the post, he said that The Falcon and The Winter Soldier "[had] filmed here for the last two days. When you watch the show and your jaw hits the floor...this is the spot where it happened. Can't wait for you to see who is in the scene. Remember to message when your mind explodes."

ETA: The Instagram post referenced above is dated February 27, 2020.

Edited by tv echo

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I wouldn't be stunned if it was Chris Evans, filming a fill-in scene where he talks to Bucky and/or Sam before going back in time, in Endgame.

Because there was probably quite a bit of time - maybe even weeks - between defeating Thanos and then Tony's funeral and then Steve using the repaired time machine. People seem to think it all happened in the space of time it took to show on the screen, but I have always assumed that Steve and Bucky had several good conversations, because it looked to me like Bucky knew Cap wasn't coming back.

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Ahhhhh I hate and love this. I guess it wouldn't be a huge surprise (to me at least) to see any characters we've seen before, including Steve. The way Spellman talks about it in the article makes it seem like a new character is the surprise, and the way the Atlanta Filming guy talks about it makes it seem like the actor will be the surprise. I only know about the comics from what others posts here, mostly. So my mind is going to huge stars like Denzel or something.

And I don't want to cry anymore, Spellman. WandaVision got more than enough of my tears. 😞

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  • John Boyega as a Wakandan scientist who built a better shield
  • Matt Damon as a mysterious amnesiac super assassin

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14 minutes ago, paigow said:
  • John Boyega as a Wakandan scientist who built a better shield
  • Matt Damon as a mysterious amnesiac super assassin

I would love to see John Boyega in the MCU. And if it is Matt Damon I want him to show up as Jason Bourne dressed as Faux Loki from the plays 🙂

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2 hours ago, paigow said:
  • John Boyega as a Wakandan scientist who built a better shield
  • Matt Damon as a mysterious amnesiac super assassin

Or John Boyega as an adult Eli Bradley (which would mean the boy who answered the door wasn't him) already kitted out as Patriot.

Edited by Danny Franks

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If Sebastian Stan is supposed to be young Luke Skywalker...

Then Mark Hamill should cameo as a bastard son of Bucky born sometime after the Korean War

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On 3/30/2021 at 9:41 PM, paigow said:

If Sebastian Stan is supposed to be young Luke Skywalker...

Then Mark Hamill should cameo as a bastard son of Bucky born sometime after the Korean War

It seems less than likely that HYDRA would give their Winter Soldier slave weapon time off to bang, but who knows?

I hope that the situation with Ayo doesn't end with a fight but with her and Bucky talking things out and then joining the group to keep an eye on Zemo.  It'd be funny to watch Sam bounce hard off the idea that Wakandans are not African-Americans.  I mean, Wankanda has basically been a nation-state since before the beginning of recorded human history.  Zemo being a Baron is basically a child playing dress-up compared to the lineage of their royal family.

Plus, it's probable that Bucky knows that the heart-shaped herb is effectively extinct and might very well have contacted Ayo/Wakanda about what he's doing with the idea of getting them some of the Super-Soldier Serum as a replacement.

Edited by johntfs
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Talk about the credits in the episode thread make me think about that we're already halfway through 😢 and the order of the credits means Mackie will come first in Ep. 6. You know, when he becomes Captain America. The very last thing we see at the end of those credits better be:

Captain America and the White Wolf will return

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2 hours ago, festivus said:

Captain America and the White Wolf will return

For season 2! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

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On 4/3/2021 at 3:35 PM, johntfs said:

It seems less than likely that HYDRA would give their Winter Soldier slave weapon time off to bang, but who knows?

From what we just saw in the last episode with Zemo pretending to sell Bucky, time off for that was not quite what they appear to have been doing to the Winter Soldier.

So in that context, yeah, much as I love Mark Hamill and his delightful dog videos, really don’t want to see any kids popping up. That would be kind of upsetting and depressing for everyone, including the audience.

But yes, we need six seasons and a movie (at least). The Captain America movies have to continue for at least three more with Sam and Bucky right?  Or the TV equivalent, since this is the golden age of series, and this thing clearly cost at least the same as a full movie.

I’m holding on to the hope that Disney 110%  know what it would look like if non-blond Sam doesn’t get the same respect as yes-he-is-quite-blond-actually Steve. Because as far as the acting is concerned, or the likability of the character as we’ve been seeing, there’d be absolutely no reason for that. As pointed out, Captain America and the White Wolf has a pretty amazing ring to it.

I’m just so excited to see what those wings will look like with the Captain America regalia on them. Cannot wait.

Edited by Lebanna
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11 hours ago, Lebanna said:

From what we just saw in the last episode with Zemo pretending to sell Bucky, time off for that was not quite what they appear to have been doing to the Winter Soldier.

Gigolo

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