Lady Whistledown: Friend or Foe

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I am starting to feel like the Marina setup is like one of those "morality" questions we'd discuss in my philosophy classes. Like these,

https://icebreakerideas.com/moral-dilemma-questions/

You are given only two options, but I would spend time on finding other options, there are always more than two options. 

Well, Marina did try a third option, aborting the baby.

EDIT, I'll leave this or later comments won't make sense, but I got the timing of Sir Philip's arrival wrong, he didn't show up until the final episode.

There was also a FORTH option, Sir Philip, the baby's uncle and at least a blood relation to the child, AND he knew she was pregnant when he made the offer, so would not be being duped.

He was young, he was titled, and he was there, and he offered.  Marina sent him away in the belief that she'd aborted the child, but she could have easily sent him a letter to return, or made arrangements to join him and accept his proposal.

Instead she decided she preferred to dupe Colin, and just have a baby in 4-6 months.  It's hard to say, since she arrived pregnant at the start of the season, and the season was winding down when she decided to lie to and deceive Colin.  She knew she might show very soon, indeed was already showing, so she arranged to plant the idea of a quick elopement in his head.  Completely despicable actions.

The season goes from April to August.  I wonder how pregnant Marina was?  

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

I would agree that Penelope is selfish, but yeah, teenage girl. She's no more selfish than Marina. I don't agree that Penelope is vindictive towards Marina. She outed Marina, in her eyes, to save Colin from a marriage based on lies to a woman who was just fine deceiving him.

Penelope, as Whistledown, is vindictive towards others, and I'll spoiler tag this because some of it is book talk, and I don't have a list of Whistledown columns in the show to compare.

  Reveal spoiler

In the book, the Whistledown columns rip up on Penelope's mother's fashion sense, Cressida Cowper, and many of the other members of the ton who are cutting and rude. With the book columns, there's a fine line between Vindictive and Vindicated. 

 

I still don't think Pen was vindictive, except that the TRUTH could be considered vindictive.  I wish they had included that spoilered part, because it's not essential to the plot, but did show that Pen told the truth.  In some ways that could have been to say "hey!  I didn't

Spoiler

choose these atrocious gowns, my mother is the one making us look idiotic."

I actually applaud that.

 

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

I could believe that’s what she told herself, but I think the real reason was being upset she was losing Colin. Which honestly is fine lol. Like I’ve said before, I love the idea of Pen being a selfish person having fun being kind of a bitch as LW and getting her chance through the column to get back at people and/or help herself while also making money. I have zero problem with that. I do have a problem with her being  just a naive girl who only outted Marina to help a friend, which is obviously how the show thinks we’ll see it but is not how they actually presented it.

TPTB really fucked that by showing her with that smug smile. And also by, you know, having her be LW while also somehow expecting us to believe she’s just an innocent little girl. I feel like they kind of want to have it both ways but that won’t work.

What about the fountain of tears, the completely shattered Penelope after she'd published?  I don't remember a smug smile, but I do remember Penelope completely shattered after being forced to take extreme measures.

Marina MOCKED her, was as cruel to Penelope, the one who was trying to help her the entire time she was in London, the one who tried to find the baby's father for her, the one who discovered that letter was a forgery.  After all she'd done for Marina, she was forced to BEG Marina to not use Colin that way, and Marina laughed at her.

Penelope abased herself to Marina who cold heartedly treated Pen just as she was about to treat Colin.  Pen then saw that Marina had also manipulated Colin into that quick elopement and was simply out of time.  Colin had to know, and he would not listen to her, walked away as she tried to get out the words that no "lady" of that time would be at ease saying.

56 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I don't think Pen ever thought she'd have Colin, so I don't think revealing Marina's secret was about losing him. I think that's where we differ. I think Penelope was realistic that she'd never have a real shot a Colin, so stopping the marriage wasn't about saving Colin for herself. I think Penelope is around 17/18 and Marina is maybe 19? but I'm not sure. Both of these girls are ...girls, without fully developed and mature reasoning. They are acting on limited information and making terrible choices. I just think Marina's choice to deceive is worse than Penelope's choice to reveal so publicly. 

I also struggled with the inconsistencies with Marina, not that teen girls are always consistent, but Marina's position changes were plot driven rather than character driven.  

 

I completely agree.  Penelope knew that she had no chance of marrying Colin, but he was kind to her and others, a decent man from a decent family, about to be duped and used by a heartless, calculating, mean, and fickle woman, bound to her for life.  

38 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Yeah, I think what stops me short is the idea that Penelope was being "vindictive." I don't think we see any evidence of that whatsoever. We don't see any evidence of Pen "hating" Marina (though obviously she's hurt by Marina's targeting of Colin) or desire to get back at Marina.  So I'm not seeing any support for the idea that she's being vindictive.

I do think you can make an argument for Pen being a bit selfish - and certainly self-centered or self-interested. While I think part of her motivation was that Marina's actions in deceiving Colin were wrong, I don't think it is possible to ignore Pen's feelings for Colin as part of her motivation. So yes, I'm fine in saying that she was a little selfish in what she did. But not vindictive.

Re: the smile - I had a different read on why she smiled than I think most people. I don't think she was smiling because she was twirling her mustache, going "a ha, my plan to disrupt Colin and Marina's relationship worked!" I think she was smiling out of relief that she didn't get caught. But I also think that there was enough ambiguity in that smile that they probably should have left it out if they wanted Pen to remain entirely sympathetic. On the other hand, if you had read the books, you knew that the reveal was coming, so perhaps that's why I didn't see the smile as making her unsympathetic. 

I completely agree with all of this.

How Penelope became the calculating shrew is honestly so strange to me.

Penelope wasn't the liar or the user here, Penelope exposed that liar, but not before trying everything she could, in her position, do to not only help Marina, but to open Colin's eyes.  She may have even mustered up the courage to shout out "She's pregnant!" but Colin walked out on her, while she was trying to sum up those words.  In her innocence she thought love the even more important factor, that Marina had no love for Colin, that she loved someone else, so she lead with that.  

The child was one thing, and a man being lied to about something so important was horrific, but a man being lied to about love was, in her innocent eyes, far more significant.

EDIT again, Sir Philip didn't show up until the final episode, I was remembering the sequence of events incorrectly.

Again, Marina DID have options, and the best of those was Sir Philip, merely a letter or messenger away.  A titled man, a kind man, a good looking man of an acceptable age, the unborn child's uncle, fully aware of Marina's situation, and willing to marry both her and be a father to his brother's child.  A man far enough away from London to keep down at least some of the gossip.

Definite book spoiler here so don't read this one if you hate spoilers because it may actually matter to the future plot.

Perhaps Marina

Spoiler

was already in the early or hidden stages of "crazy."  She was acting irrationally, and completely selfishly already.  She turned on her only friend, heartlessly mocking her.  She tried to abort the child.  She focused in on Colin to remind her of the time when she was the most desirable in the Ton, somehow thinking some magical thoughts that Colin wouldn't notice when she had a baby in 4-5 months, or her charm would make him not care that he'd been used and lied to, and not loved by her?  She was acting irrationally, especially by not taking the most logical and practical and moral choice of marrying Sir Philip.

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Umbelina
EDITED to show where I was in error about timing. Sorry!

[Llywela]

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

There was also a FORTH option, Sir Philip, the baby's uncle and at least a blood relation to the child, AND he knew she was pregnant when he made the offer, so would not be being duped.

He was young, he was titled, and he was there, and he offered.  Marina sent him away in the belief that she'd aborted the child, but she could have easily sent him a letter to return, or made arrangements to join him and accept his proposal.

Instead she decided she preferred to dupe Colin, and just have a baby in 4-6 months.  It's hard to say, since she arrived pregnant at the start of the season, and the season was winding down when she decided to lie to and deceive Colin.  She knew she might show very soon, indeed was already showing, so she arranged to plant the idea of a quick elopement in his head.  Completely despicable actions.

Sir Philip's proposal came AFTER Marina's attempt to save her child and herself from a life of poverty and misery by eloping with Colin. He wasn't an option beforehand. She barely knew he existed. Colin was her last ditch effort. By the time Sir Philip turned up, she was already outed and ruined, and the entire Featherington family with her.

I think a lot of posters here are really underplaying just how dire Marina's future was if she couldn't find someone (decent) to marry before her pregnancy became known. It was 1813. Mrs Featherington wasn't exaggerating when she pointed out that Marina and her child could end up on the streets. It is hard for us now, with our 21st century sensibilities, to understand just how limited the options were for young women at that time. We tend to judge them through the lens of today, but we really shouldn't, because that wasn't their reality.

(And everyone saying she should have taken the lecherous old man should try to imagine themselves in her shoes)

Edited February 24, 2021 by Llywela

[Umbelina]

15 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Sir Philip's proposal came AFTER Marina's attempt to save her child and herself from a life of poverty and misery by eloping with Colin. He wasn't an option beforehand. She barely knew he existed. Colin was her last ditch effort. By the time Sir Philip turned up, she was already outed and ruined, and the entire Featherington family with her.

I think a lot of posters here are really underplaying just how dire Marina's future was if she couldn't find someone (decent) to marry before her pregnancy became known. It was 1813. Mrs Featherington wasn't exaggerating when she pointed out that Marina and her child could end up on the streets. It is hard for us now, with our 21st century sensibilities, to understand just how limited the options were for young women at that time. We tend to judge them through the lens of today, but we really shouldn't, because that wasn't their reality.

His offer came just after she attempted aborting the child, and before she decided to lie and dupe Colin.  She sent him away thinking she'd solved the problem.  When she later realized she was still pregnant, she had the option of contacting Sir Philip and accepting him.  

Edit, I am mistaken.  Sir Phillip arrived in the final episode.  Yikes!

Edited February 24, 2021 by Umbelina

[Llywela]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

His offer came just after she attempted aborting the child, and before she decided to lie and dupe Colin.  She sent him away thinking she'd solved the problem.  When she later realized she was still pregnant, she had the option of contacting Sir Philip and accepting him.  

No, that isn't true. Sir Philip came at the very end of the train, after the attempted elopement - watch again. The moment she realises she is still pregnant she calls Sir Philip back. The planned elopement came way before that. Before the abortion, even. The sequence of events goes like this: she rejects the old man because she believes Sir George will come for her; she gets the fake letter from Sir George and realises she is going to have to settle for someone else; she plans to elope with Colin; the elopement fails when her pregnancy is outed; she attempts abortion as a last ditch attempt at saving herself and her child from a life of poverty and disgrace; Sir Philip turns up and offers to marry her but she sends him away because she believes she is no longer pregnant and doesn't want to marry a complete stranger; then finally she realises she is still pregnant and agrees to marry Sir Philip after all.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Llywela

[eleanorofaquitaine]

3 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Sir Philip's proposal came AFTER Marina's attempt to save her child and herself from a life of poverty and misery by eloping with Colin. He wasn't an option beforehand. She barely knew he existed. Colin was her last ditch effort. By the time Sir Philip turned up, she was already outed and ruined, and the entire Featherington family with her.

I think a lot of posters here are really underplaying just how dire Marina's future was if she couldn't find someone (decent) to marry before her pregnancy became known. It was 1813. Mrs Featherington wasn't exaggerating when she pointed out that Marina and her child could end up on the streets. It is hard for us now, with our 21st century sensibilities, to understand just how limited the options were for young women at that time. We tend to judge them through the lens of today, but we really shouldn't, because that wasn't their reality.

(And everyone saying she should have taken the lecherous old man should try to imagine themselves in her shoes)

Not downplaying it. I understand how dire her situation. That still doesn't mean that her plan to trick Colin was moral or ethical or justifiable. Just because she's in a bad situation doesn't mean she gets to put someone else in a bad situation. 

Umbelina, I had a similar thought about future possible plot lines.  

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, Llywela said:

No, that isn't true. Sir Philip came at the very end of the train, after the attempted elopement - watch again. The moment she realises she is still pregnant she calls Sir Philip back. The planned elopement came way before that. Before the abortion, even. The sequence of events goes like this: she rejects the old man because she believes Sir George will come for her; she gets the fake letter from Sir George and realises she is going to have to settle for someone else; she plans to elope with Colin; the elopement fails when her pregnancy is outed; she attempts abortion as a last ditch attempt at saving herself and her child from a life of poverty and disgrace; Sir Philip turns up and offers to marry her but she sends him away because she believes she is no longer pregnant and doesn't want to marry a complete stranger; then finally she realises she is still pregnant and agrees to marry Sir Philip after all.

You are correct.

I had to go look for it though!  I apologize.  I mixed up the timing.  I thought Marina attempted abortion before the whole Colin mess, and I remembered Sir Philip arriving right after Marina thought she'd killed her baby.

I edited my comments above to indicate I was incorrect.

11 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Not downplaying it. I understand how dire her situation. That still doesn't mean that her plan to trick Colin was moral or ethical or justifiable. Just because she's in a bad situation doesn't mean she gets to put someone else in a bad situation. 

Umbelina, I had a similar thought about future possible plot lines.  

Yeah, I took it to the book thread.  

Edited February 24, 2021 by Umbelina

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Yes, I responded over there. 

[companionenvy]

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

As a young woman, Marina would not have access to her dowry to make such arrangements. Her finances were completely controlled by her father. On marriage, her finances were completed controlled by her husband. And if she was moving among the ton in London, then she was also of that class at home in the country, and having a baby out of wedlock would have been just as much a scandal there.

Oh, of course. Obviously Marina couldn't have done any of this on her own. But that would have been the obvious thing for her parents to do as well. They would have had as much motivation for covering things up as she would have. 

3 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

With either the old guy OR Colin, Marina had the option of telling them before marriage.

Ethically speaking, definitely the right thing to do. But this would have been risky to the point of insanity. That Colin was willing to do it--if indeed we believe he actually would have gone through with it, in the cold light of day--is not something any reasonable person would have anticipated.

And I don't remember the exact dialogue, but I don't think Lady F actually intended to tell the old guy. The idea was that he'd be so happy to have an heir he wouldn't mind it when Marina gave birth to a full-term baby at six months.

Marina's no saint. But she was in a truly terribly position, once we pretend that there was no chance of delivering the baby privately. While it isn't right, I can also understand why she was frustrated beyond belief by Penelope nattering on about how wrong it was for her to dupe Colin into marriage when Marina might well have been looking at a future as a street whore otherwise--especially when those scruples only made an appearance when the dupe was someone she cared about.  The consequences for Marina if there was no marriage were likely to be catastrophic. The consequences for Colin after being duped into marriage don't compare. Again, that doesn't give Marina the right to do what she did, but it does put her actions in context.

I did find her an idiot for initially refusing Philip, and for acting like she was in for a life of misery when she went off with him. Even allowing for her grief, she should have been able to realize that she had just gotten an outcome that should have been beyond her wildest expectations, short of George having survived and come back for her. Frankly, Philip being willing to marry her wasn't all that realistic either; if he was an honorable guy, he would have given her a generous yearly stipend to support her and the child, not marry her. She should have been thanking her lucky stars.

[Umbelina]

43 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Frankly, Philip being willing to marry her wasn't all that realistic either; if he was an honorable guy, he would have given her a generous yearly stipend to support her and the child, not marry her. She should have been thanking her lucky stars.

I agree that marrying a nobleman who was actually the uncle to her child, and thus much less likely to reject or dislike him was the absolute best possible outcome for her.

More importantly, it was the best possible thing for the child.

I don't think Phillip's actions are that unbelievable though.  He loved his brother, who he recently found out was dead.  His brother loved Marina, and it was one last thing, and an incredibly meaningful thing for him to do for his brother.  Providing for the child, and saving the woman his brother loved from a horrible fate was, I think, kind of a no brainer for him.  I don't think he did it to be honorable, I think he did it because he WAS honorable, and loved his brother.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Umbelina

[eleanorofaquitaine]

48 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Oh, of course. Obviously Marina couldn't have done any of this on her own. But that would have been the obvious thing for her parents to do as well. They would have had as much motivation for covering things up as she would have. 

Ethically speaking, definitely the right thing to do. But this would have been risky to the point of insanity. That Colin was willing to do it--if indeed we believe he actually would have gone through with it, in the cold light of day--is not something any reasonable person would have anticipated.

And I don't remember the exact dialogue, but I don't think Lady F actually intended to tell the old guy. The idea was that he'd be so happy to have an heir he wouldn't mind it when Marina gave birth to a full-term baby at six months.

Marina's no saint. But she was in a truly terribly position, once we pretend that there was no chance of delivering the baby privately. While it isn't right, I can also understand why she was frustrated beyond belief by Penelope nattering on about how wrong it was for her to dupe Colin into marriage when Marina might well have been looking at a future as a street whore otherwise--especially when those scruples only made an appearance when the dupe was someone she cared about.  The consequences for Marina if there was no marriage were likely to be catastrophic. The consequences for Colin after being duped into marriage don't compare. Again, that doesn't give Marina the right to do what she did, but it does put her actions in context.

I did find her an idiot for initially refusing Philip, and for acting like she was in for a life of misery when she went off with him. Even allowing for her grief, she should have been able to realize that she had just gotten an outcome that should have been beyond her wildest expectations, short of George having survived and come back for her. Frankly, Philip being willing to marry her wasn't all that realistic either; if he was an honorable guy, he would have given her a generous yearly stipend to support her and the child, not marry her. She should have been thanking her lucky stars.

This is where she lost me entirely as a character and if we're going to talk about Pen's smile, we should also talk about the bad writing in having her reject Philip initially. Because sure, she thought her attempt at an abortion was successful, but she was still considered "ruined" (rightly or wrongly), so marrying him was a good solution for her (though in that case, she was right to tell him that she believed that the child no longer existed, but he still seemed up for it).  And then to act like she was being sent off to life in a gulag or something once she realizes she is still pregnant and he is still willing to marry her?  It's that final act that has me thinking that for all of the challenges that she faces, Marina is fundamentally a pretty selfish human being. 

I don't think telling Colin or the old dude was "risky to the point of insanity." I do think it was "risky," and so I understand why she thought that trickery was the better path.  But "to the point of insanity?" No. Colin is a seemingly nice man from a family that cares about family and who was apparently besotted with her and so if she wanted to act honorably, she could have been honest with him and laid out to him the situation and the dire circumstances she faced. For sure, it may have failed! That is the risk you take when you act with integrity. But I don't think it was an impossible course of action for her. She chose another path.

Similarly, Pen could have chosen to tell Colin and/or Eloise directly, and therefore face the consequences of outing both Marina and her mother as schemers without the entire world knowing about Marina's predicament. That also would have be the appropriate ethical action. So I think that there is something to criticize with regard to Pen - she did something that impacted people she cares about without having to face the consequences for it (immediately, at least - no doubt she will eventually).  Both women had bad choices and made bad decisions. But IMO neither are evil; but both have moments of selfishness. 

[Umbelina]

28 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Similarly, Pen could have chosen to tell Colin and/or Eloise directly, and therefore face the consequences of outing both Marina and her mother as schemers without the entire world knowing about Marina's predicament. That also would have be the appropriate ethical action. So I think that there is something to criticize with regard to Pen - she did something that impacted people she cares about without having to face the consequences for it (immediately, at least - no doubt she will eventually).  Both women had bad choices and made bad decisions. But IMO neither are evil; but both have moments of selfishness. 

I think this might have been her course of action, but she found out they were eloping the next morning, and not telling anyone.  She was out of time, or at least I feel that's how she saw it.

Colin wouldn't listen to her, why would he listen to his little sister, and then there was the issue of how she could even reach Eloise in time.  Frankly, I don't think Colin would have listened to Eloise either.  It (as shown in the previous stories) would have to be a man for Colin to listen, and Pen couldn't tell a man either, the only one she even felt slightly comfortable talking to was Colin.  Her own father was obviously no use, he already knew.

I need to watch Swish again though.  

[Umbelina]

Watching Swish again.  Stuff that jumps out to me that relates to this thread, as this is the episode Penelope outed Marina.  I'm only mentioning the Pen or Colin or Marina parts of the episode here.

Anthony, the oldest male of the family, also tries to talk Colin out of this hasty match.  He tells him he is immature, and he was completely out of line with the hasty announcement of his engagement, blindsiding everyone in the family, especially his mother.  Colin specifically tells Anthony that he didn't tell anyone because he knew his family would disapprove. 

(lots of Daphne stuff)

Colin's mother speaks to him, she's concerned since Colin flirts with multiple young women.  They mention that LW reported the engagement.  Colin accuses his mother of paying more attention to Daphne.  His mother goes on to say that it's all happening so quickly.  Colin, in retrospect, kind of sadly says "No one ever takes me seriously, except Marina."  

Marina chatting with Pen's sisters, says all of our fortunes are about to change.  Pen replies "especially Colin's."  The sisters go to another part of the room, Pen and Marina chat.  At first Marina compliments Pen, and she doesn't believe her.  Marina says she's grateful for Pen's friendship and support, and relies on it.  Pen says "my continued silence you mean."  Marina continues to compliment Pen's friendship, and says she says, "please, don't tell me you regret it."  Pen says she would never bring scandal on her or her family (!) but she doesn't condone Marina's actions.  Marina replies she wants Pen as her friend, asks for understanding and for Pen to be pleased for her.  Pen's mother interrupts to take Marina to get her trousseau.    

The sisters joke about how lucky Marina is, "a whole new wardrobe and a handsome husband, between the two of them they really will make the most beautiful babies."  One says, "He is not the father, you dunderhead!"  They giggle.  Pen says "Do not laugh at him, she makes a fool of him already."  

Next scene is the dress shop, Eloise, her mother, and then Mrs. Featherington and Marina arrive.  Mrs. F is excited that that their families will be joined, invites the fam to dinner.  Mrs. B is polite.  The dress keeper doesn't want to wait on Mrs. F, since she doesn't pay and is in arrears.  Marina blackmails the dress keeper by speaking French and implying she will be outed if she doesn't provide the trousseau. 

 The dinner.  Getting ready at the F's.  Marina is told to swish, obviously pregnant.  Pen speaks up and tries to stop the plan.  Saying deceiving Colin is one thing, but deceiving his mother as well is problematic, as she's had 8 children and she will be aware she's being managed.  At the dinner, Mrs. F suggests a honeymoon in foreign parts, and a hasty marriage.  Anthony says Colin is very young, and a lengthy engagement is wiser.  Pen is silent.

When Colin leaves during the dreadful singing of Pen's sisters, Pen gets up and follows, asking for a word.  (So this was her opportunity to talk to him, but she is rather unprepared.)  This is where she tells him Marina's heart belongs to Sir George Crane.  She says she's seen their love letters and she thought he should know before it's too late.  Colin dismisses it, and Pen tries to explain further, but is interrupted by Marina.  (I'd forgotten that Marina stopped the conversation!)

Marina tells Colin no one likes her, her father, the F's, his mother, and talks him into a quick elopement.  "We can be alone."  So he suggests what she wanted him to suggest and declarations of love are made, elopement to happen in a day.

The F's.  Pen and her mother in the house.  Pen is avoiding a dinner invitation, saying that she is ill. Her mother has only been invited since the family is now involved with the Bridgertons. Mrs. F leaves.   Pen starts searching the house.  She finds evidence of the forged letter where George dumped Marina.  She takes the evidence to Marina, to prove to her that George never dumped her or broke her heart.  "He never denied loving you, he never broke your heart."  Marina says that even so, he never wrote her, and that she was a fool, the forgery changes nothing.  She burns the evidence.

Pen asks her about what she will do when Colin finds out.  The elopement is mentioned.  Marina says Colin will care for them both.  Pen asks what of Colin.  Marina says she knows now that Pen loves Colin, but Colin sees her as she is, and regards her as he regards Eloise, his sister, Colin will never love her.  He sees Marina as a wife, a woman, and as a woman she must make these difficult choices, even if they hurt her feelings.  Pen leaves.

We see the printing press printing the column.  Eloise is outside and Penelope collapses in her arms, crying inconsolably.

Colin is leaving to elope and his mother gives him Lady Whistledown's column saying Marina is with child, and she has been from the first day she arrived in our fair city.  "Desperate times may call for desperate measures, but I would wager many would think her actions beyond the pale.  Perhaps she thought it her only option, or perhaps she knows no shame.  But I ask you, can the ends ever justify such wretched means?"

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Umbelina
burned the forgery evidence, not the letter

[bijoux]

19 hours ago, Umbelina said:

 

I don't think Phillip's actions are that unbelievable though.  He loved his brother, who he recently found out was dead.  His brother loved Marina, and it was one last thing, and an incredibly meaningful thing for him to do for his brother.  Providing for the child, and saving the woman his brother loved from a horrible fate was, I think, kind of a no brainer for him.  I don't think he did it to be honorable, I think he did it because he WAS honorable, and loved his brother.

Plus, providing for your brother's widow was normal. I know Marina’s not George's widow but it's not surprising that a responsible guy would see her now as his responsibility.

19 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

This is where she lost me entirely as a character and if we're going to talk about Pen's smile, we should also talk about the bad writing in having her reject Philip initially. Because sure, she thought her attempt at an abortion was successful, but she was still considered "ruined" (rightly or wrongly), so marrying him was a good solution for her (though in that case, she was right to tell him that she believed that the child no longer existed, but he still seemed up for it).  And then to act like she was being sent off to life in a gulag or something once she realizes she is still pregnant and he is still willing to marry her?  It's that final act that has me thinking that for all of the challenges that she faces, Marina is fundamentally a pretty selfish human being. 

This took me out of the story because Marina’s objection seemed to be ew, not George's brother and that just felt too modern for the era when this sort of thing was hardly unimaginable. Even if there was no pregnancy.

Spoiler

Much as it was in the book. 

 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I'm actually okay with the nod to modern sensibilities, but on top of everything else, it was the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of me thinking that she's pretty selfish. 

[ouinason]

Yes, Marina and Pen are both quite selfish and childish in the way they behave with/about each other.

[Umbelina]

I followed up by watching the final two episodes last night, again, this time, just watching for Pen, Marina, and/or Colin scenes.

I won't do another "in depth, scene by scene" thing, just the most important parts.  

The main and most important thing I noticed is that Colin didn't believe Marina was pregnant or was lying to him.  At all.  It basically took his family KNOWING (through Whistledown's column) to keep him from going through with the elopement.  What this said to me was that, no, Pen or Eloise telling him anything would have been completely ineffective.  Basically, that Pen guessed correctly, "it took a village" to stop him.

Daphne shows up to save the family's reputation with her new status as Duchess.  That all works well, and she's kind to all, Colin, Marina, even the Featheringtons by the finale, inviting them to the dance.  She also arranges to "find George Crane" for Marina (another option never considered by the way.)

Anyway, the important scene is of course when Daphne arranges for Colin to see Marina with Daphne as chaperone, to hopefully avoid further scandal. 

 Colin starts out telling Marina that what LW wrote cannot be true.  Marina admits it is true. 

Colin takes a step back, shocked.  "I do not understand, we were to be wed, you said you loved me." 

Marina:  "Colin, I hold you in the greatest esteem."

Colin:  "Esteem?  You are a cruel woman indeed to stand here and talk of friendly affection, as if you have not just committed a great sin against me."

Marina:  "Speak not of sin, Mr. Bridgerton.  I did not come here to be shamed by you, nor anyone else.  I did not know better.  You may think me a villain, but I did what I thought I must.  No one ever truly helped me, or guided me in a different direction.  I had no choice.  I needed to wed.  And you, you were the only man who offered me even a glimpse of happiness." 

Colin:  "So I should feel flattered then?  Consider myself lucky that you chose me, lied to me, tried to trick me into a fraud of a marriage?  I shall take my leave of you for the last time, Miss Thompson."  (starts to leave, comes back)  "You wish to know the cruelest part of your deception?  If you had simply come to me and told me of your situation...I would have married you without a second thought.  That is how in love I believed myself to be.  But I see now that was all a lie." (he leaves)

Daphne approaches Marina, concerned.  

Marina:  "I believe I would like to return home now.  After all, we don't want another scandal attached to your family name."  Marina leaves.

Just one more scene when Daphne, being kind and concerned towards Daphne, tells her she will work to find George, through her connections.     

Daphne arrives at the F's and asks to speak to Marina alone.

Marina:  "For what it is worth I am sorry, your brother is a sweet boy." 

Daphne says no need, she came to apologize to Marina.  She says she understands.  Marina says "I wish it had not happened this way."  Marina smiles when talks about George, then reflective, talks about finding herself pregnant and alone.  Daphne says George is at fault and hatched the find George plan.

(actually not much reaction from Marina, perhaps hope, but nothing I could use judge her mood at the idea of having George back.)

Anyway, mostly I just included this, to me, important follow up to Swish to show that, no, I seriously doubt a marriage to Colin, based on such lies, and manipulation, would have ever been a happy one, certainly not for him, his hurt at this much of a betrayal is extreme, imagine actually going through with it, and finding out later how long he was lied to, and that he was merely used.  His "love" all a sham?  Dealing with the gossip and rumors when a child is born 4 or 5 months after his elopement, just all of it.  

The other reason I include it, is that I think it does show that Eloise or Pen just telling Colin this would never have worked.  He didn't even believe it with the whole family, indeed the whole town knowing.  He didn't believe it until Marina admitted it.  The ONLY reason he wasn't married is that his FAMILY believed it, and stopped him from even leaving the house. 

Last episode Anthony implied Colin was a virgin, I didn't quite get that until now, saying he should have taken him someplace (a brothel maybe?)  So, to me, this shows more of a romantic/lust/love delusion he was having.  I find it especially sad for him, and for Marina, that had she chosen honesty?  I believe he would have married her, and both might have had a chance at future happiness, even though all of Marina's love and passion was for George.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Umbelina
typo

[Jess14]

On 2/25/2021 at 4:09 PM, Umbelina said:

The other reason I include it, is that I think it does show that Eloise or Pen just telling Colin this would never have worked.  He didn't even believe it with the whole family, indeed the whole town knowing.  He didn't believe it until Marina admitted it.  The ONLY reason he wasn't married is that his FAMILY believed it, and stopped him from even leaving the house. 

I know I’m jumping back in late, but I don’t think this really shows that. Lady W is a gossip rag. Of course he wanted to hear from Marina to know if the rumor was true. Who wouldn’t? On the other hand, Pen lives with Marina, so she would been privy to personal information about Marina. I don’t buy that he wouldn’t have confronted Marina about it had Pen told him the truth and told him how she learned it. Now, if Marina still lied about it, then sure, I think he would’ve still eloped, but that’s different from what happened. 

Regardless though, I think this notion that Pen had to stop him from eloping any way possible, even through public humiliation is where I lose the argument. Even if she thought telling him and him alone wouldn’t stop him, why does that matter? It’s her place as a friend to tell the truth. Period. That’s it. If Colin still wants to make a bad decision and marry Marina, well then, that’s his bad decision to make, not hers.

As an example, I’m sure basically everyone has had at least one friend who has dated and/or has married a terrible person. If my friend’s girlfriend is pregnant with someone else’s kid and I know it, I should tell him. If he blows it off, maybe I’ll tell others friends and get them to intervene. BUT if I’ve told him the truth and he still chooses to marry this woman, I can attend the ceremony and pretend to be happy for him or I can decline to attend. What I’m not going to do is stand up when the officiant asks if there’s a reason they shouldn’t marry and tell the whole church that the bride is pregnant with someone else’s kid. I’m also not going to stand up and announce this information if I haven’t bothered to tell him the truth in private. Those 2 scenarios would just be me being a shitty person, not a friend.  

With all that said, I don’t hate Pen or Marina, and I’m interested to see where the show goes with Pen in season 2.

[GaT]

I really thought that when they showed Penelope was Lady Whistledown, it was a misdirection, & we were going to find out she had found that piece of paper & was going to confront the person she thought had written it, but it looks like I was wrong. I found this Vanity Fair article that confirms it's her.

[RachelKM]

On 3/18/2021 at 2:43 PM, Jess14 said:

Regardless though, I think this notion that Pen had to stop him from eloping any way possible, even through public humiliation is where I lose the argument. Even if she thought telling him and him alone wouldn’t stop him, why does that matter? It’s her place as a friend to tell the truth. Period. That’s it. If Colin still wants to make a bad decision and marry Marina, well then, that’s his bad decision to make, not hers.

Yes.  She should have told him as his friend.  And I don't necessarily subscribe to the notion that Colin wouldn't have believed Pen. They knew one another, she's his sisters best friend, and he would know she wouldn't make up something so hurtful and scandalous.  But again, SHE TRIED. 

Pen confronted him and told him that Marina was still in love with George.  I don't actually think her starting with that truth was intended to side step the pregnancy issue for delicacy reasons, but rather an attempt to enlighted Colin enough to avoid him entering a sham marriage while preserving as much of Marina's reputation as possible.  Colin responded with "we all have a past."  Colin's response indicated that he believed, whatever her feelings for George had been or even might remain, Marina had fallen or was falling for him now. 

Pen looked as if she was going to go ahead and tell him and then Marina walked in and interrupted them. Pen hesitated and Colin walked away.

As for finding another time to tell him, as stated in previous posts, there was no such opportunity.  She and Colin are as close to being friends as a 17 year old unmarried girl who is friends with his 17 year old little sister can be to a man in his early 20s. They chatted at balls and when their families met in company. But in the ordinary course of a week, they may not see each other at all unless they attended the same dinner or ball or he stumbled upon her in his home while she visited Eloise and/or he chose to join Pen and Eloise as they visited.  Men visited women they were courting but rarely just as friends.  And unmarried women did not visit men at their homes at all.

If Pen had known at that dinner when she approached him that he and Marina would decide to elope in a matter of days, she may have pressed harder during that conversation, following him when he moved to step away and/or simply blurted it out Marina being present be damned.  But she didn't know.  As far as she knew, a wedding (however hastily) would be planned. 

Then she learned about the elopement the night before it was to happen. At that point, she was utterly out of options.

Even had Penelope run across the square, presented herself at the front door in the middle of evening, and Colin was at home, she could not have asked for him directly. Young unmarried women did not pay visits to or request an audience with unmarried men to whom they were not related. Even going to the Bridgertons' home and asking to see Eloise in the middle of the evening/night would be highly irregular no matter how close the girls were.* 

And if he was not home, she would have absolutely no way of locating him or getting to him if she somehow learned of his whereabouts. Bold enough to take a carriage to an as of yet unknown party used to accomplish publishing the LW pages or no, she would be denied entrance to almost any place else he could be even if she took the ruinous step of seeking him out.  She flat out could not enter a gentlemen's club and she couldn't enter another home, assuming he was at party or ball, without an invitation. 

So there really was no reasonable way from the time she learned about the elopement until the time it was to take place that she could hope to speak with him. 

 

*It is unclear to me whether Pen did go the house when she found Eloise or if she slipped into their garden looking for her.  The fact that she wasn't announced by a butler or footmen indicates that she did not present herself at the door and ask to see Eloise and instead sought her where she believed she would be. (Eloise did seem to favor that swing at night.) 

Edited April 12, 2021 by RachelKM
Somehow I quoted the wrong section of the prior post. Oops.

[Chicago Redshirt]

At a minimum, Pen could have told Eloise the whole truth and counted on her to tell Colin. 

I will never ever believe that someone as clever and resourceful as Pen is could not have found a less painful way of letting Colin know that Marina was running a game on him than to write about it as LW. 

[Meow25]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

At a minimum, Pen could have told Eloise the whole truth and counted on her to tell Colin. 

I will never ever believe that someone as clever and resourceful as Pen is could not have found a less painful way of letting Colin know that Marina was running a game on him than to write about it as LW. 

I know this has been discussed to death, but Pen was an immature teenager in love.  Obsessive love.  Penelope is also smart, and creative, and likely had very vivid daydreams of the possibility of Colin...even though in reality she knew it was unlikely.  Colin is also very young to marry, so I am sure that she thought she had years to prepare to "lose" him.  Obsessive love and unrequited love is very strong.  I was a teenager 24 + years ago and I still remember how it felt.  

She may be smart and clever, but when the heart is involved it all comes out in idiot to quote Lorelai Gilmore.  This is why I highly disliked Marina's character...she was only there to add unnecessary drama.  

So no.  I don't think that Pen is evil.  I think she is an immature girl, lowest on the rung of her own family, the ugly duckling at parties, sweet friend to Eloise and Marina, and she was pushed to her emotional limit.  Was it the best way to handle it?  NO.  Was it typical of something a teenage girl in love, who is desperate to keep her man would do?  Yes.  Absolutely. Hell, I'm personally dealing with bitchy 14 year old girls and their bitchier mothers who pick on my daughter relentlessly trying to get her to quit her softball team.  Jealousy, ambition, greed, and obsession make otherwise nice people do desperate and ugly things.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Meow25 said:

I know this has been discussed to death, but Pen was an immature teenager in love.  Obsessive love.  Penelope is also smart, and creative, and likely had very vivid daydreams of the possibility of Colin...even though in reality she knew it was unlikely.  Colin is also very young to marry, so I am sure that she thought she had years to prepare to "lose" him.  Obsessive love and unrequited love is very strong.  I was a teenager 24 + years ago and I still remember how it felt.  

She may be smart and clever, but when the heart is involved it all comes out in idiot to quote Lorelai Gilmore.  This is why I highly disliked Marina's character...she was only there to add unnecessary drama.  

So no.  I don't think that Pen is evil.  I think she is an immature girl, lowest on the rung of her own family, the ugly duckling at parties, sweet friend to Eloise and Marina, and she was pushed to her emotional limit.  Was it the best way to handle it?  NO.  Was it typical of something a teenage girl in love, who is desperate to keep her man would do?  Yes.  Absolutely. Hell, I'm personally dealing with bitchy 14 year old girls and their bitchier mothers who pick on my daughter relentlessly trying to get her to quit her softball team.  Jealousy, ambition, greed, and obsession make otherwise nice people do desperate and ugly things.  

I am not saying that she was evil for choosing the route that she did. 

I am simply saying it is false to say she had no other options. 

She clearly had other options that were available to her that were (or should have been) apparent to someone of her intelligence and creativity. 

[Mrs. Hanson]

On 4/19/2021 at 11:23 AM, Meow25 said:

I was a teenager 24 + years ago and I still remember how it felt. 

I was a teenager 40 years ago and remember how it felt, lol.  

 

On 4/19/2021 at 11:23 AM, Meow25 said:

This is why I highly disliked Marina's character...she was only there to add unnecessary drama. 

I agree and in the beginning I liked her!  Then as it went on.....not so much.

[Jane Tuesday]

I don't think it helps Penelope's cause that she's played by a 30+ year-old actress. NC is great in the role, but she absolutely does not come off as a teenager. (I would say the same for CJ as Eloise.) It will help when they need to time-jump the characters later, but for now, neither is bringing the naive innocence that the current roles require. It makes it easy for the viewer to forget how young they're supposed to be. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

So I would be interested in hearing from people who defended Pen after S1 if S2 changed their minds at all. It seems like her betrayal of Eloise is even worse than her betrayal of Marina, as is her resuming the LW persona.

On another front, I'm curious as to how profitable her being LW is. She tells the printer that the profits from one week's LW was 10 pounds. How much would that translate to in today's money?

Is there a good explanation for why the Queen hasn't been able to figure out who was LW? It seems pretty simple to figure out who is publishing LW and then grill them for info or stake that place out. Indeed, the Queen had a variant of that plan that was in place at the end of S1 when Eloise managed to warn off Pen. But even failing to capture LW in the act doesn't mean that they couldn't lean on the printer to tell them what they needed to know or to set LW in another trap.

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

So I would be interested in hearing from people who defended Pen after S1 if S2 changed their minds at all. It seems like her betrayal of Eloise is even worse than her betrayal of Marina, as is her resuming the LW persona.

I think I would people who condemned Pen would characterize as having defended her.  On a friendship level, it was a greater betrayal. Pen's goal was to get the Queen off Eloise's trail, however, and she lacked any other plan.  As she noted, simply confessing wouldn't necessarily work. I think she might have also been scared of turning the Queens attention to herself. Which may be self-centered, but not unfair to consider.

As far as the harm it caused, I'm not sure it was all that bad socially.  Unless I misunderstood, she mostly outed Eloise as a going to the wrong side of town and engaging in politics.  Under normal times when the Bridgertons were in good standing, as they almost certainly would be again, this wouldn't necessarily make Eloise more than an oddity in the long run.  She already is and wants to be known as a bluestocking (a woman more interested in intellectual pursuits which was considered unfeminine and, thus, unladylike.) The loss of the flirtation with the printer boy is sad. But realistically, if Eloise pursued that in any fashion, Lady would be the least of her problems amongst the Ton.

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

On another front, I'm curious as to how profitable her being LW is. She tells the printer that the profits from one week's LW was 10 pounds. How much would that translate to in today's money?

I wasn't sure if that was £10 for an issue, and it would have been 11 plus if she had not wanted something and accepted a round 10. Either way, it's a decent income.  I'm not at all an expert, so I'm 100% sure. But looking it up, £1 regency would have the purchasing power of around £40 in today's money, or $65. A woman with £20,000 as a dowry was was considered an heiress.  

The London Season started around late January through the Summer coinciding with the sessions of Parliament.  Pen is only publishing during the season.  So maybe 30 weeks? So £300 per season that presently she isn't spending.  If she had all her earnings still from the year prior, she could easily have £500 by mid/late second season. If it's per issue, she could have close to £1,000.  That's far more money than any young woman would be given for pin money.

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Is there a good explanation for why the Queen hasn't been able to figure out who was LW?

The only thing I can think of is that Queen Charlotte doesn't want to search openly because she doesn't want it known that Lady W bothers her. She's trying to keep it quiet and only use people she can manipulate to keep quiet.  

[ouinason]

My position has not changed, I still don't think she's a villain.  Short sighted, sure.  Definitely waltzing down that path to hell with it's golden bricks of good intentions at times, but not evil or anything.  

I think the 10 pounds would be a bit over 600 dollars, based on a currency calculator (first historic value from 1810 to 2017 and then from current pounds to dollars) so that's not a fortune or anything.  If she saved all of it though, she could work up enough to invest and live comfortably on once she aged out.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, RachelKM said:

But realistically, if Eloise pursued that in any fashion, Lady would be the least of her problems amongst the Ton.

Wasn't it Eloise's choice to make? 

Pen thinks she has a right to make choices on the behalf of Colin and Eloise and in the same time she insists to continue her career as Lad W despite the probability of being caught and get herself and her family into serious problems. 

[Sakura12]

I do think Pen enjoys being the center of attention as Lady W. Since she gets none of that as herself. 

What I still don't get is, Lady W is worldly and knows about sex. Yet Penelope presents herself as navie and sheltered. That makes that persona seem fake. She can't be both. 

Also the Queen would've believed her since she is on the list of suspects. I know Pen doesn't know that, but I think she would make any excuse to not stop. She loves the power she holds over the ton. She also could've made fun of Eloise in any way, her dress, her slouching, her manner with the eligible men that have tried to court her. Because the political angle could've made her sound anti monarchy and get her in much more trouble with the Queen. While yes she thought it was the only way to help El, but it also kept her as Lady W. 

I do wonder how she can go back to writing when El could expose her now. 

[Roseanna]

39 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Also the Queen would've believed her since she is on the list of suspects.

Pen could easily prove to the Queen that she is LadyW by writing a piece - she has her own style of writing just as everybody. 

Also, the owner of the printing shop saw and could identify her although she pretended to be a servant. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 hours ago, RachelKM said:

I think I would people who condemned Pen would characterize as having defended her.  On a friendship level, it was a greater betrayal. Pen's goal was to get the Queen off Eloise's trail, however, and she lacked any other plan.  As she noted, simply confessing wouldn't necessarily work. I think she might have also been scared of turning the Queens attention to herself. Which may be self-centered, but not unfair to consider.

As far as the harm it caused, I'm not sure it was all that bad socially.  Unless I misunderstood, she mostly outed Eloise as a going to the wrong side of town and engaging in politics.  Under normal times when the Bridgertons were in good standing, as they almost certainly would be again, this wouldn't necessarily make Eloise more than an oddity in the long run.  She already is and wants to be known as a bluestocking (a woman more interested in intellectual pursuits which was considered unfeminine and, thus, unladylike.) The loss of the flirtation with the printer boy is sad. But realistically, if Eloise pursued that in any fashion, Lady would be the least of her problems amongst the Ton.

I wasn't sure if that was £10 for an issue, and it would have been 11 plus if she had not wanted something and accepted a round 10. Either way, it's a decent income.  I'm not at all an expert, so I'm 100% sure. But looking it up, £1 regency would have the purchasing power of around £40 in today's money, or $65. A woman with £20,000 as a dowry was was considered an heiress.  

The London Season started around late January through the Summer coinciding with the sessions of Parliament.  Pen is only publishing during the season.  So maybe 30 weeks? So £300 per season that presently she isn't spending.  If she had all her earnings still from the year prior, she could easily have £500 by mid/late second season. If it's per issue, she could have close to £1,000.  That's far more money than any young woman would be given for pin money.

The only thing I can think of is that Queen Charlotte doesn't want to search openly because she doesn't want it known that Lady W bothers her. She's trying to keep it quiet and only use people she can manipulate to keep quiet.  

Thanks for the calculations. My understanding was that the 11 pounds was the money she was owed for just the latest issue. But it also sounds like she typically was pumping out 2 issues a week. And also, one might suspect that business might be better when more juicy stuff was going on, so like the issue that came out after the Edwina/Anthony wedding was a disaster might bring in, say, 20 pounds. Anyway, it's good to have a ballpark sense of how well Pen is doing, seemingly pretty well for herself but not enough to bring her house out of debt singlehandedly or anything like that.

As Queen, surely she can figure out cats' paws that would be perfectly serviceable. Trying to use Eloise last season was an example, but kind of an awful choice since Eloise as smart as she is at the end of the day is just a teenage girl who has limited ability to look into anything. I suppose we're still like 50+ years prior to the time of Sherlock Holmes, but one would think that the concept of a private detective would exist by now.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Asked by @Roseanna in the Viscount Who Loved Me thread:

What right has Penelope to believe that she knows what is Colin's "best interest"? 

She had the "right," as Colin's friend, to assess Marina's plan and to determine if she thinks her friend will benefit from it. Again, it wasn't Penelope's fault that Marina was pregnant or that Marina's plan was to lie to and trick Colin. Marina decided to do those things on her own and it wasn't Pen's responsibility to keep Marina's secret for when Marina wanted to do something despicable (namely lie to Colin and trick him into marriage without knowing the truth. To be clear, I don't think getting pregnant shows a lack of character in Marina but tricking Colin and not seeing why her plan was bad does).

As for Penelope in this situation - I do think that this betrayal of Eloise is worse because Eloise was acting rashly but wasn't doing anything wrong. And I think that Penelope was offering an excuse for not coming forward. She could have told Eloise first and she could have provided the evidence that she was Lady W.

But I still like Penelope as a character. I like the complexity of her character and I think Nicola Coughlan does a great job teasing out that complexity. 

[Conotocarious]

I love Penelope as a character. I don’t need my show characters to be only good to be worth rooting for. Lord knows I am complex and have many unpleasant facets of my personality and I enjoy seeing it reflected in others. 

[Sakura12]

If Pen is such a good friend to Colin she should've told him directly not made him look like a fool and throw her cousin under the bus. Or she could've told Eloise and she could've told her brother. And if he still wanted to marry Marina after knowing that would be his decision to make, not Pen's. 

She is not to be trusted since she will take private information and spill it to the world for her gain. Hating her doesn't mean she's a bad character, it makes her more interesting then say Colin who is boring. 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

If Pen is such a good friend to Colin she should've told him directly not made him look like a fool and throw her cousin under the bus. Or she could've told Eloise and she could've told her brother. And if he still wanted to marry Marina after knowing that would be his decision to make, not Pen's. 

She is not to be trusted since she will take private information and spill it to the world for her gain. Hating her doesn't mean she's a bad character, it makes her more interesting then say Colin who is boring. 

Yes, my position is that Penelope should have told Colin or Eloise before writing it about it. That is something worth criticizing her over.

But I think that the idea that exposing Marina was for "her gain" is tenuous, at best. Yes, she has feelings for Colin. But I never got the sense that she believed that exposing Marina would suddenly make Colin have feelings for her. Furthermore, she was also very well aware that revealing Marina's condition would, in fact, be pretty harmful to her family and her prospects for a decent marriage. Her "best interest" would have been to let Marina go forward with her trickery and have Colin suffer the consequences. 

[shapeshifter]

My (our?) most humble apologies to mods for my not bothering to look for this thread sooner.🙇‍♀️
But I'm here now. 
Love this post👆directly above from @eleanorofaquitaine pointing out Pen likely knew she stood to lose at least as much as to gain by outing Marina. Likewise, we saw Pen crying as she hesitantly penned her outing of Eloise.

And, my favorite posts from the 2.8 thread:

On 3/26/2022 at 2:04 AM, Door County Cherry said:

Goodness.  First Penelope damaged Marina's reputation.  And now her best friend's.  I'm glad when Eloise was yelling at her, she mentioned Marina and called her out on it.  But I just don't know how the character recovers?  Although maybe the writers don't think she needs to since they seem to focus a lot on her and her POV more than almost any other character consistently.

22 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

That seemed a little like fan service to me. While I can understand why Eloise was upset with Penelope, if I found out a woman was planning to trick my brother in such a profoundly dishonest way, I don't think I would be angry with the person who exposed that dishonesty. It struck me as a wrong note coming from Eloise, though if Marina herself found out, I could understand why she would be upset with Penelope. 

Anyway, once again, I give them credit for putting enough nuance in these situations to make both positions understandable. Pen was not wrong that for all that Eloise is cosplaying radical politics, she seems to be pretty unwilling to give up the privileges of her upbringing to do anything about it. And Penelope warned Eloise a number of times that she needed to stop visiting Theo or she was going to get discovered.

All of that being said, Eloise's anger that Penelope was hiding this from her - and exposed Eloise to ruin - was understandable. Madame Delacroix suggested that Pen come forward and she dismissed the idea but she could have at least told Eloise before she revealed her secret. So she's not innocent there.

To which I replied:

Quote

I've interpreted Pen having altruistic motives when she wrote about Eloise going to see Theo, because Eloise refused to listen when Pen said Eloise must stop seeing Theo, and so Pen saw this outing Eloise's visits to the print shop as a way of killing 2 birds with one stone.
That is, it would prove that Eloise was not Lady W., and  make her break off the friendship with Theo, which was bound to get her in trouble. 
Does Pen ever tell Eloise that when they have their final fight?
Maybe not? I don't recall.
Regardless, maybe at some point next season Eloise will tell Pen she forgives her and thank her for (whether on purpose or inadvertently) preventing her from ruining her life. 

But this👆reply of mine doesn't emphasize enough that I am really asking all of you here:
Am I wrong in thinking Pen really does at least convince herself she is doing her friends favors by outing situations from which they really would look back on in years to come and wish they had not continued on those paths of youthful desires?
In both the cases of Colin and Eloise, Pen first tried to warn them of making a poor decision before outing them under the guise of LW.

Of course, I'm not sure that Colin would not have been happy with Marina and the twins. I guess that depends upon how the rest of his life turns out in comparison. 
But it is probably correct that Eloise would not be happy marrying working-class Theo, or at least more likely she would regret it. IDK. 
There are similar situations that my mother warned me against, and yet I now see that probably the end results of either path chosen would have been equivalent.
And here we have the parallel example of Mary, who did marry her lower-class husband and gives a heartfelt line about having never regretted it.

However and meanwhile, Pen does have the perspective of living in a family that is on the edge of financial ruin. This can serve to make her both realistic and paranoid. 

IDK. Is Pen just a cuter version of the paparazzo who chased Princess Diana's car through that fateful tunnel?  

Edited March 28, 2022 by shapeshifter

[eleanorofaquitaine]

It's hard to know if Colin and Marina would be happy now. Maybe they would be but the fact that is content with Sir Philip, who went into the situation fully aware of what was happening, and the fact that Colin seemed to still have feelings for her does not mean they would be happy if Marina's plan succeeded. Because it would mean they were in a marriage built on lies and that is a corrosive foundation for any relationship. 

As to your question - IMO, Penelope's biggest flaw is that she thinks she knows better than people she cares about re what they need. She is probably right that she saved Colin and Eloise from bad situations but she owed it to both of them to talk to them first. By taking to Lady Whistledown instead of talking to them, she robbed them of agency in their own lives. 

I like her character but that is still a rather large flaw.

[shapeshifter]

6 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

She is probably right that she saved Colin and Eloise from bad situations but she owed it to both of them to talk to them first. By taking to Lady Whistledown instead of talking to them, she robbed them of agency in their own lives. 

This👆 is what most posters agree about. And, admittedly, I only watched each episode once.
But I thought Pen did try to tell Eloise not to go back to Theo, and Pen only used LW when Eloise ignored that strongly worded advice, right? Or is that just the way I want it to be?

And WRT Colin: I recall even less, but would it be taboo for Pen to tell Colin about Marina's "condition"? IDK.
I do think there was more jealously involved in the outing of Marina's pregnancy, and perhaps it is coloring how we think about what Pen did in Eloise's case this season?

Regardless, Pen is using LW to give herself a sense of power and agency that she does not otherwise have. Unfortunately, it is a rather inglorious path to power, but also probably her only path.

Next season, it could be interesting to see how the Queen engages LW. Will there be a power struggle?

[RachelKM]

3 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

If Pen is such a good friend to Colin she should've told him directly not made him look like a fool and throw her cousin under the bus. Or she could've told Eloise and she could've told her brother. And if he still wanted to marry Marina after knowing that would be his decision to make, not Pen's. 

I do not want to relitigate season one, but I will once again point out that Pen tried to talk to Colin.  She started off by telling him that Marina was still in love with George. It appeared that Pen was trying to convey the situation to Colin while protecting as much of Marina's privacy as possible. Colin, smitten as he was, decided to interpret that as Marian not being over George but falling for him.  She started to go on and they were interrupted by Marina herself. 

Maybe Pen should have blurted out the truth right there.  But at that time, she believed she had weeks yet before the wedding and would have another opportunity.  She only used the nuclear option when it was the night before Colin and Marina were planning to elope and she had no way of directly communicating with Colin.

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

In both the cases of Colin and Eloise, Pen first tried to warn them of making a poor decision before outing them under the guise of LW.

This.  Probably one of the reasons I have less sympathy for E than I maybe should is that she was behaving recklessly, Pen had pleaded with her to stop, and she was only in a position of being under the Queen's scrutiny because she had been found out. She ditched out on her brother's wedding, FFS. She was hardly being careful.

Granted, I've been 18 and infatuated.  So I'm not saying that E was TEH WORST.  It's just that she had been behaving in a way that was likely to get her in any of the gossip rags any day.  And they would have left out that she was going for political reasons.  

And, yes, Pen could have simply outed herself.  But I question the notion that Pen was obligated to out herself, give up her work and income, and expose herself to the Queen's reaction because Eloise acted rashly and got caught (after Pen's multiple warnings).  The fact that Pen considered it shows she cared about Eloise.

1 hour ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

As to your question - IMO, Penelope's biggest flaw is that she thinks she knows better than people she cares about re what they need. She is probably right that she saved Colin and Eloise from bad situations but she owed it to both of them to talk to them first. By taking to Lady Whistledown instead of talking to them, she robbed them of agency in their own lives. 

I agree with this.  Although, I will give her credit that, as discussed above, Pen at least tried talking to them.  And she only took the steps she took when options had run out and it was do something or nothing.  Maybe nothing would have been better. 

But the latter situation with Eloise had implications for Pen too. And she is allowed to consider herself. 

1 hour ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I like her character but that is still a rather large flaw.

Same.  Pen is smart and sees the world pretty clearly.  But she assumes she knows what's best and, even if she's right, that she has the right to take the reigns when people she cares about are making what she deems mistakes. 

Eloise is likewise likeable and flawed.  For all her complaints about the limitations of her station and sex, she doesn't seem to want to shed the privileges she lives in.  And Political cosplay is a good term for what she was doing meeting with Theo. She was escaping to an exciting world that felt freer to her. But that was because she had the ability to leave it and run home to her servant filled house where food insecurity was so foreign a concept Eloise would probably assume it meant worrying your chef wasn't up to par. 

And it was that same privilege and security that had her thinking she could run all over town without consequences either physically (it was legitimately dangerous) or reputationally. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by RachelKM

[eleanorofaquitaine]

52 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

This👆 is what most posters agree about. And, admittedly, I only watched each episode once.
But I thought Pen did try to tell Eloise not to go back to Theo, and Pen only used LW when Eloise ignored that strongly worded advice, right? Or is that just the way I want it to be?

And WRT Colin: I recall even less, but would it be taboo for Pen to tell Colin about Marina's "condition"? IDK.
I do think there was more jealously involved in the outing of Marina's pregnancy, and perhaps it is coloring how we think about what Pen did in Eloise's case this season?

Regardless, Pen is using LW to give herself a sense of power and agency that she does not otherwise have. Unfortunately, it is a rather inglorious path to power, but also probably her only path.

Next season, it could be interesting to see how the Queen engages LW. Will there be a power struggle?

She did talk to Eloise about not going back to see Theo but at that point, IMO, she probably should have told Eloise the truth about who Lady W was. They could have devised a plan together to deal with the Queen.

Re not telling Marina - it probably would have been taboo but at the very least, IMO, Penelope could have told Eloise, who would have then told Colin. So Penelope did have a few options that she didn't take. 

[RachelKM]

7 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Re not telling Marina - it probably would have been taboo but at the very least, IMO, Penelope could have told Eloise, who would have then told Colin. So Penelope did have a few options that she didn't take. 

Taboo, yes.  But it was a step Pen probably would have tried before Lady W if she'd had time. Colin and Marina were engaged and planning a wedding. Reading of the banns alone took weeks.  However, Marina and Colin had decided to elope and Pen learned that fact the night before.  At that point, even telling Eloise didn't provide high odds the information would get to Colin before he left.

[Sakura12]

Pen had time to write her article, travel to the lower class neighborhood to get it printed first thing in the morning, but didn't have time to walk across the street to her friends house and tell Eloise or Colin. Or even tell Mrs Bridgerton. 

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Pen had time to write her article, travel to the lower class neighborhood to get it printed first thing in the morning, but didn't have time to walk across the street to her friends house and tell Eloise or Colin. Or even tell Mrs Bridgerton. 

I have explained this previously, that yes, it seems a bit magical that Pen got all that done.  But it was all stuff she could control.  What she could not do was, in the middle of the evening, traipse over to the Bridgeton home outside "at home" hours and demand an audience with either Colin or Viscountess Bridgeton.  The former would be ruinous for her reputation and the later would be absurdly rude and likely denied.  She probably could have gotten to Eloise and possibly to the Viscountess. But that had no real likelihood of reaching Colin.  It might reach him if he 1) was home or 2) returned home that evening before running off and either Eloise or his mother manage to corner him. 

So, no, she could not just walk across the street. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by RachelKM

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I have explained this previously, that yes. It seems a bit magical that Pen got all that done.  But it was all stuff she could control.  What she could not do was, in the middle of the evening, traipse over to the Bridgeton home outside "at home" hours and demand an audience with either Colin or Viscountess Bridgeton.  The former would be ruinous for her reputation and the later would be absurdly rude and likely denied.  She probably could have gotten to Eloise and possibly to the Viscountess. But that had no real likelihood of reaching Colin.  It might reach him if he 1) was home or 2) returned home that evening before running off and either Eloise or his mother manage to corner him. 

So, no, she could not just walk across the street. 

While the show is set in a fantasy world, it does stick to the mores and laws of Regency England.  Pen tried to discreetly tell Colin, but he brushed her off.  And in this world, once Colin married Marina they are married.  Annulments and divorce do not happen.  Technically divorce is legal, but the hoops one had to jump through are lengthy and include a literal act of parliament.  And once those babies are born, Colin is their legal father.  She was trying to stop Colin from making a mistake.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

In my view, the compressed timeline was a bit of a writing misstep. They could have had Penelope find out a day or two beforehand rather than the night before, and it would have seemed a little less fantastical.

But I noticed this season they were playing a little fast and loose with the timeliness. Like I couldn't tell if this was all happening in a matter of days or several months.

Edited March 28, 2022 by eleanorofaquitaine

[RachelKM]

4 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

In my view, the compressed timeline was a bit of a writing misstep. They could have had Penelope find out a day or two beforehand rather than the night before, and it would have seemed a little less fantastical.

But I noticed this season they were playing a little fast and loose with the timeliness. Like I couldn't tell if this was all happening in a matter of days or several months.

If Pen had days, she definitely would have had time to get a message to the Bridgerton family.  So it was a bit of catch 22.  Unless they wanted to portray Pen trying to see Eloise and missing her repeatedly. For using Lady W to no be utterly unforgiveable, there had to be no time for any other option.

As for the timeline of this season, it was at minimum a few months.  The first few events would have been spaced over at least a few weeks.  The pre-house part visit was, I think a week, and the full house party another.  Then there would have been at least a month between the proposal and the formal wedding.  And that only gets us to the middle of the show season. 

Not sure how quickly the remaining season would happen.  But it would a another few weeks at least. And then another month for Anthony and Kate's wedding. 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I think that they could have gotten away with a day or two, just by having them miss each other. I do agree that longer than that becomes more problematic for Pen's character. 

Re this season timeline, there was a moment where Anthony was like "we've been hiding our feelings for months" and months seemed longer to me. I thought more like weeks. But it's neither here nor there, really. 

[Door County Cherry]

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

What she could not do was, in the middle of the evening, traipse over to the Bridgeton home outside "at home" hours and demand an audience with either Colin or Viscountess Bridgeton. 

But demanding to talk to Eloise?  That'd likely be approved.  Or sending a note in the middle of the night?  That kind of thing happened all the time.  She had the money to hire someone to deliver a preview of the next newsletter that she didn't need to publish. 

5 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Pen is smart and sees the world pretty clearly.  But she assumes she knows what's best and, even if she's right, that she has the right to take the reigns when people she cares about are making what she deems mistakes. 

Right.  She wants to control the choices her friends make.  She doesn't want to let them make the choice or didn't like the choices they were making.  Everything Penelope does is a risk to get out the newsletter but Eloise can't take a similar risk to pursue her passions?

 

But flaws are a bit beside the point, I think.  Pen and Eloise have flaws but Eloise's flaws had nothing to do with Penelope.  Pen's flaws directly impacted the lives and reputations of Colin, Marina, and Eloise (and Daphne). Pen did what she did.  So the question that remains is whether or not Pen is a trustworthy person to the Bridgerton clan.  I think she has proven herself not to be.   

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

I have explained this previously, that yes, it seems a bit magical that Pen got all that done.  But it was all stuff she could control.  What she could not do was, in the middle of the evening, traipse over to the Bridgeton home outside "at home" hours and demand an audience with either Colin or Viscountess Bridgeton.  The former would be ruinous for her reputation and the later would be absurdly rude and likely denied.  She probably could have gotten to Eloise and possibly to the Viscountess. But that had no real likelihood of reaching Colin.  It might reach him if he 1) was home or 2) returned home that evening before running off and either Eloise or his mother manage to corner him. 

So, no, she could not just walk across the street. 

IIRC, what she did do was accomplish all the things she needed to do to get the issue printed and then go to the Bridgertons and have a cry with Eloise the night before the issue printed. So it seems that there's no good argument that Pen was somehow prevented by time or other constraints from instead going straight to the Bridgertons and telling Eloise and trust Eloise to tell, Violet, Anthony, Colin or whoever would have been appropriate. Or that she could not have gotten an anonymous note sent just to the Bridgertons putting them on notice of Marina's situation. Someone as creative as Pen could probably come up with a half-dozen less harmful ways of getting the information to Colin that Marina was pregnant with another man's baby and was trying to rope him in marriage because of it if that was what she wanted to do.  

The main two conclusions that I think can be drawn are either 1. Pen was blinded by love when she made the decision to print the story and didn't think enough about alternatives/consequences or 2. Pen consciously or unconsciously knew the potential consequences and either actively desired them or thought for some reason stopping the Colin/Marina wedding was important enough to risk them.

One of the things I don't know if it has been/will be a consequence: even though Marina's kid(s) are technically legitimate through marriage, there's a LW article calling them bastards and talking trash about Marina. Although LW may not live forever like something posted online, there is still a very good chance that the article will follow the kids for a long time.

[RachelKM]

9 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

But demanding to talk to Eloise?  That'd likely be approved.  Or sending a note in the middle of the night?  That kind of thing happened all the time.  She had the money to hire someone to deliver a preview of the next newsletter that she didn't need to publish. 

Not really approved.  Possibly allowed.  As it turned out, she found Eloise that night in the garden anyway.  But again, communicating with Eloise did not have any significant guarantee Eloise would be able to tell Colin.  He could choose to stay out all night and/or simply refuse to listen to her at all.

Just now, Chicago Redshirt said:

and then go to the Bridgertons and have a cry with Eloise the night before the issue printed.

Yes, as I said.  She saw Eloise.  But as I've noted over and over, communicating with Eloise in not the same as getting information to Colin.  (She also found Eloise outside and there was no indication she presented herself at the front door.)

It's also possible that Pen chose not to expose herself as the vessel for the information since she was essentially tanking her own household.  Portia would have been ready to kill her.  And if Pen was so scared, I wouldn't blame her.  (

So the choice to tell a Bridgerton was not as straightforward as suggested in these posts. 

As for sending a midnight express, that was not at all common and was only done for emergencies.  I'm not sure who Pen would be expected to send it to? Eloise? The Viscountess?  Colin?  Setting aside that a note presents the same communication logistic issues as speaking with the above - getting the message to Colin and/or ruining her reputation. It would hardly be discrete as it would alert the house and there would be questions, sending it to Viscountess Bridgerton would be 

Was her course wise?  Possibly not.  Was it her only option that might work? Also possibly not.  Was it the only option that had a high probability of success?  Yes.

So, @Chicago Redshirt, your bianary options ascribing stupidity or conscious or subconscious malice are not the only motives I see.  The compressed time may have prevented some deliberation that might have presented another option.  But even if she considered them, there were reasons for not taking them.

And I just don't subscribe to the notion that the desperation of Marina's circumstance justified her actions.*  Explain and mitigate them? Sure.  Excuse and justify? No.

 

*I will admit that Colin's visit to Marina seemingly still a dipshit who couldn't understand that Marina didn't love him diminished my sympathies for him.  But Marina's practical exasperation with him likely removed some of her regret it wasn't him after all.