Lady Whistledown: Friend or Foe

[twoods]

Spoiler

Penelope was outed in the fourth book.

Above spoiler is regarding Lady Whistledown being outed in the books.

Edited February 17, 2021 by twoods

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

The thing is, there wasn't actually any real news about Daphne to report, which means it is hard for me to see how LW's credibility would have suffered by not piling on with snark. It isn't like she would have been allowing herself to get scooped by another scandal sheet; as long as she kept writing entertaining stuff, I don't find it credible that the fact that she didn't happen to comment on non-news involving Daphne would have been enough to sink her. On the other hand, the fact that it was hurtful to Daphne is evident; there's a difference between there being a general sense that your star is fallen and having your social failure proclaimed in the press.

For the Ton?  That WAS the news!  The "season" was the reason nearly everyone was there, and what everyone was talking about.  

The show made Daphne "The Diamond of the First Water" and had the Queen herself praise and single her out.  She should have had a house full of suiters and been the most popular at the dances, all of it.  For her to suddenly have an empty house and dance card?  For the Queen to have been wrong in choosing her?  Huge.

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

In any case, protecting Pen's identity and ensuring the success of LW are not inherently worthy goals, and should not be justifications for bad behavior. If you say something nasty about something else because doing so is pragmatically useful to you, the fact that your actions may have a discernible motive does not mean that what you're doing isn't selfish and cruel.

Again, nothing "nasty" was said and I'm really struggling to find something "cruel" she said, and I seriously disagree that Penelope breaking the mold and becoming a writer and social observer, and the talk of the town, not to mention making her own money, and having the entire city anxious to buy her newspaper is an unworthy goal.  It was a time of limited opportunity for women, especially opportunity to make money, or be recognized.

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

It just seems really convenient that super-resourceful Penelope has simply no alternative but totally outing Marina publicly, where outing Marina publicly corresponds perfectly to her own romantic desires.

Of course it was contrived, it's a romance novel.

 

4 hours ago, Callietwo said:

  Hide contents

If the book didn't out Pen to be Lady Whistledown, I'd wonder if that last scene with Penelope was what we thought it meant because

the very first episode of the season has the narrator saying something to the affect that we don't know who LW is and never would.  

 Such a strange choice to both say we would never know, and then REVEAL it a few episodes later.   Perhaps it was an error to do that, but adaptations are strange.  Possibly it's more about wanting to keep all characters "active" as the series progresses.  After all, the realities of actors availability could be playing into decisions here.

Book spoiler about Pen follows:

Spoiler

In the book, LW was Penelope, but it's not revealed for several more books.  The story is charming and one of the better books in the series.

 

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Penelope and Colin had been friends for years. Why wouldn't he have believed her at least enough to not elope in the morning? That would be an outrageous, specific, and dangerous lie for Penelope to tell; Colin would have had to be a moron not to take it seriously, especially when he thought back and realized Marina had turned on the charm suddenly, tried to get him to sleep with her ASAP, and was now unaccountably invested in eloping immediately. I mean, maybe he would have gone through with the elopement anyway, but it wouldn't be an especially likely outcome--and if he did, it would kind of be on his own head.

Men are fools when in love?  Women couldn't even mention the sexual side of pregnancy to other women, let alone to a man?  Penelope still didn't even understand how Marina became pregnant with no husband?

He WAS going through with the elopement, that was not a question.  Had the paper not come out, he would be married.  Penelope tried and tried to tell him as much as she could, he dismissed it all.

Also, they were "friends" in that Colin knew she was Eloise's bestie, and danced with her now and then to spare her being the butt of jokes as a wallflower.  They were not exactly hanging out.

6 hours ago, companionenvy said:

It is a matter of proportion. What Marina was doing to Colin was bad enough that Colin had a right to know, even though exposing her secret to the Bridgertons and scuttling the match would have had devastating consequences for Marina even without the added element of public exposure. But to me, the consequences weren't so woefully dire that it excuses exposing her publicly simply because that was definitely going to prevent the marriage and other measures were only probably going to prevent the marriage.

Different times.  I was definitely going to prevent the marriage, and did.  More importantly though?  Colin would not be used or duped into a lifelong arrangement.  IF he chose to marry Marina with his eyes wide open?  That, while a bit sad for Pen perhaps?  Would have been fine with her.  She simply didn't want him used, fooled, and humiliated or devastated.  It was a very big deal to get married then, divorce difficult if not impossible, and no, I agree with Pen.  NO ONE should marry while being lied to or used, now, or then.

 

[katha]

They just didn't think through what making LW into such a viciously cruel and nasty gossip writer who has no scruples about humiliating people and potentially ruining their lives means for the characterization of Penelope. They want to dissociate the ruthlessness of the writing from "aw shucks!" sweetiepie Penelope. But it doesn't work like that.

Added to the points discussed about Marina and Daphne, her friendship with Eloise also appears as a total sham in that light. Something Pen uses to get to the good gossip while pretending to be a friend. But the problem is, I'm sure they didn't intend for Pen to appear as a sociopath and there won't be any consequences for the hurt she has caused. Because once again, they don't know what they are presenting on screen.

It's also very troubling/questionable that the most prominent of LW's "victims" we are presented with are other women. As if destroying other women is the best way to gain power and get to the top.

[kj4ever]

I see all this differently because I had a friend that was duped into marriage in the early 90's by someone who wanted a "better option" and knew damn well the kid wasn't his.  Fast forward 13 years later when the kid yells "well you're not even my father" and yeah, she told the kid but not her husband, and yeah, complete chaos.  He went from someone having a full ride to college to working and going to school part time because he decided to marry her and take care of their family.

So hell yeah I was cheering when she outed her.  No one has the right to take away someone else's choice just because it's a better option for you.  Marina had the older dude that didn't care.  She had options but chose to be devious and try and possibly destroy someone else's life.  How babies got here may have been a big mystery, but I'm pretty sure most would know how long people were pregnant.

Really I can see people hating on Pen for getting her family drug down in a mess, but don't understand how people think she should stick up for someone she has only known a month or two over someone she has known her whole life.  That doesn't make sense to me.

[peachmangosteen]

3 hours ago, kj4ever said:

Really I can see people hating on Pen for getting her family drug down in a mess, but don't understand how people think she should stick up for someone she has only known a month or two over someone she has known her whole life.  That doesn't make sense to me.

Part of it imo is because it came off to me more like Pen was upset Colin would be getting married and therefore she'd lose any shot with him more so than she was doing it totally unselfishly just to save her friend from being duped.

Also, the smug smile she had on her face when she was revealed as LW. That was a bad choice by the director.

Plus, if she is writing LW then a lot of her personality and the naivety she portrays is fake bullshit.

[Sakura12]

For me if Pen was really interested in saving her friend, she should've just straight up told Colin that Marina is pregnant. She doesn't have to understand how she got pregnant to tell him. And even if Colin didn't believe her, it would put that in head and he would probably ask Marina about about it. She choose to out them both publicly, which embarrass both Colin and Marina. 

And I also agree if Pen is Lady W on her own then she is much more worldly then she appears. She is gleefully writing about a the women of the ton. I don't blame her for it, she's making money for herself. But I don't think she's some innocent lamb, not with what she writes about it. Her innocent act seems like just that an act.

[peachmangosteen]

I don’t blame her for it either. I actually love the idea of Pen being LW for the money and thrill of it and completely pretending to be the innocent girl. I don’t think that’s what the show thinks it’s portraying though.

[companionenvy]

Right. I think the issue is that we can't have it both ways. Obviously there can be shades of grey, where someone isn't all good and all bad. But there's just too much distance between Penelope as a sweet, bubbly innocent and Penelope as a witty, sharp sophisticate for the second to exist without the first being a total sham. If you want to cheer for Pen/LW as an ambitious conniver who is outplaying everyone else in the social game, that's fine. But then acknowledge that she's doing rotten things to other people for her own gain, which she is, rather than trying to create a scenario where Pen is LW, but she's also not really saying anything bad about Daphne, and is only exposing Marina out of high-minded concern for Colin and because she has literally no other choice.

And again, the Colin situation I can kind of buy as a combination of contrivance (why couldn't Pen go across the street to the Bridgerton's when she found out about the elopement, despite being able to trot off to the printer's whenever she likes?) and desperation. She obviously didn't want to out Marina. But...we see from the reaction of the Bridgertons that Daphne and her family clearly think there's a difference between Daphne's pool of suitors drying up (also a contrivance, frankly) and LW writing about her being out of options. So it was actually hurtful, and presumably LW is writing comparably hurtful things about people we don't know or care about, but may not deserve it any more than Daphne does.

On 2/17/2021 at 4:16 PM, Umbelina said:

On 2/17/2021 at 10:05 AM, companionenvy said:

The thing is, there wasn't actually any real news about Daphne to report, which means it is hard for me to see how LW's credibility would have suffered by not piling on with snark. It isn't like she would have been allowing herself to get scooped by another scandal sheet; as long as she kept writing entertaining stuff, I don't find it credible that the fact that she didn't happen to comment on non-news involving Daphne would have been enough to sink her. On the other hand, the fact that it was hurtful to Daphne is evident; there's a difference between there being a general sense that your star is fallen and having your social failure proclaimed in the press.

For the Ton?  That WAS the news!  The "season" was the reason nearly everyone was there, and what everyone was talking about.  

The show made Daphne "The Diamond of the First Water" and had the Queen herself praise and single her out.  She should have had a house full of suiters and been the most popular at the dances, all of it.  For her to suddenly have an empty house and dance card?  For the Queen to have been wrong in choosing her?  Huge.

I mean "not news" in the sense that an engagement, a scandal, or a break-up was news. There wasn't a tangible piece of information that other people didn't know, and that anyone who fancied themselves a "journalist," of a sort would have to report on in order to remain credible.

 

On 2/17/2021 at 4:16 PM, Umbelina said:

gain, nothing "nasty" was said and I'm really struggling to find something "cruel" she said, and I seriously disagree that Penelope breaking the mold and becoming a writer and social observer, and the talk of the town, not to mention making her own money, and having the entire city anxious to buy her newspaper is an unworthy goal.  It was a time of limited opportunity for women, especially opportunity to make money, or be recognized.

It might be a reasonable ambition. It isn't an intrinsically worthy goal in the sense of it justifying treating other people poorly--to the extent that she is treating other people poorly in order to serve her interests as LW, she's being selfish. It isn't like she needs to raise money so that her sister (or even she) can afford life-saving surgery or something. 

Again, it is a matter of having it both ways. Admiring Pen for deciding to buck social expectations and look out for number one is one thing. But that acknowledges that she's doing selfish and hurtful things. Saying "Yes, Pen is  awesome because she's turning a rotten system to her advantage, but also nothing she did was harmful or unjustifiable in any way" just isn't tenable, IMO. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by companionenvy

[BlackberryJam]

Whistledown wrote about Daphne's suitors drying up after they'd actually dried up. They dried up because Daphne was dull and Marina outshined her. Whistledown didn't cause Daphne's suitors to dry up. Pointing it out wasn't the nicest thing to do, sure, but it didn't destroy Daphne's chances with men. 

[kj4ever]

16 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

For me if Pen was really interested in saving her friend, she should've just straight up told Colin that Marina is pregnant. She doesn't have to understand how she got pregnant to tell him. And even if Colin didn't believe her, it would put that in head and he would probably ask Marina about about it. She choose to out them both publicly, which embarrass both Colin and Marina. 

And I also agree if Pen is Lady W on her own then she is much more worldly then she appears. She is gleefully writing about a the women of the ton. I don't blame her for it, she's making money for herself. But I don't think she's some innocent lamb, not with what she writes about it. Her innocent act seems like just that an act.

There are several times during the season that it's made abundantly clear men don't listen to women during this time, and I think that is probably pounded into their collective heads.  Marina was devastated when she realized only Daphne wrote the general and not her husband.  Thankfully (or not) the general still read it but time and time again it seems unless a man says it it's not real. 

[Door County Cherry]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Whistledown wrote about Daphne's suitors drying up after they'd actually dried up. They dried up because Daphne was dull and Marina outshined her. Whistledown didn't cause Daphne's suitors to dry up. Pointing it out wasn't the nicest thing to do, sure, but it didn't destroy Daphne's chances with men. 

I don't think Marina was the reason behind Daphne's suitors drying up; it was Anthony and his initial refusal to believe anyone was good enough for his sister.  

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Whistledown wrote about Daphne's suitors drying up after they'd actually dried up. They dried up because Daphne was dull and Marina outshined her. Whistledown didn't cause Daphne's suitors to dry up. Pointing it out wasn't the nicest thing to do, sure, but it didn't destroy Daphne's chances with men. 

Yes, as said below, it was Anthony's atrocious over managing of Daphne's affairs, being a MAN he assumed he knew more than both his mother and his sister.

1 hour ago, kj4ever said:

There are several times during the season that it's made abundantly clear men don't listen to women during this time, and I think that is probably pounded into their collective heads.  Marina was devastated when she realized only Daphne wrote the general and not her husband.  Thankfully (or not) the general still read it but time and time again it seems unless a man says it it's not real. 

Yes, good point.  They included several incidents of this, including Anthony with his mother and sister, Colin not listening to Pen, the General's wife saying no one would listen to a woman, and I'm sure more that I'm missing.

That's why Pen knew in her bones the only way Colin would listen is if other men knew he was being conned.  Pen tried SEVERAL ways to handle this without using Lady Whistledown.  All failed.  Then she found out the elopement was happening the very next morning and made what was obviously a very painful and conflicted choice.  She was in tears.

13 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

I don't think Marina was the reason behind Daphne's suitors drying up; it was Anthony and his initial refusal to believe anyone was good enough for his sister.  

Exactly.  Anthonly drove all of Daphne's away.

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Again, it is a matter of having it both ways. Admiring Pen for deciding to buck social expectations and look out for number one is one thing. But that acknowledges that she's doing selfish and hurtful things. Saying "Yes, Pen is  awesome because she's turning a rotten system to her advantage, but also nothing she did was harmful or unjustifiable in any way" just isn't tenable, IMO. 

We just see it differently.

I admire Pen for carving out her own way of making money and being recognized and celebrated instead of ignored and made fun of.

I think her actions with Colin and Marina were spot on.  She begged Marina, she tried several times to warn Colin.  In the end she knew he wouldn't listen to her, a mere woman, so she made sure he WAS told the truth.  This was about telling the truth, she wasn't making up lies, that was Marina.  If anyone was rotten and selfish it was Marina.

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Right. I think the issue is that we can't have it both ways. Obviously there can be shades of grey, where someone isn't all good and all bad. But there's just too much distance between Penelope as a sweet, bubbly innocent and Penelope as a witty, sharp sophisticate for the second to exist without the first being a total sham. If you want to cheer for Pen/LW as an ambitious conniver who is outplaying everyone else in the social game, that's fine. But then acknowledge that she's doing rotten things to other people for her own gain, which she is, rather than trying to create a scenario where Pen is LW, but she's also not really saying anything bad about Daphne, and is only exposing Marina out of high-minded concern for Colin and because she has literally no other choice.

Pen can still be very innocent while still having a sharp mind and great skill with writing.  She's observant, a born reporter, paying attention to all that is going on around her, keeping notes, asking subtle questions.  She has the skill of putting together a witty and well written 3-4 pages of gossip/news.  

Again, I don't think she did anything rotten at all.  As I've said in depth elsewhere in this thread and won't repeat, Pen tried several ways to stop this, including begging Marina, and trying to talk to Colin (not easy at all for a young virgin, and young women were not supposed to call on men AT ALL, let alone advise them.)  

She didn't rejoice in exposing Marina or opening Colin's eyes, she was shattered.

[Door County Cherry]

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think her actions with Colin and Marina were spot on.  She begged Marina, she tried several times to warn Colin.  In the end she knew he wouldn't listen to her, a mere woman, so she made sure he WAS told the truth.  This was about telling the truth, she wasn't making up lies, that was Marina.  If anyone was rotten and selfish it was Marina.

But he did listen to her and what she told him.  He just didn't react the way she wanted him to.  We have no evidence that, had she told him that Marina was pregnant,  he would have ignored her.  

The risk she ran by doing it privately wasn't that he wouldn't believe her; it was that he either might be too besotted to care or that he might just do the noble thing anyway.  But making it public?  No chance of him doing that. 

[Umbelina]

On 2/19/2021 at 10:59 AM, Door County Cherry said:

But he did listen to her and what she told him.  He just didn't react the way she wanted him to.  We have no evidence that, had she told him that Marina was pregnant,  he would have ignored her.  

The risk she ran by doing it privately wasn't that he wouldn't believe her; it was that he either might be too besotted to care or that he might just do the noble thing anyway.  But making it public?  No chance of him doing that. 

Perhaps.

Or perhaps she still didn't quite understand pregnancy, or saying that word out loud was too difficult.

I think she could find words when writing that she couldn't find when speaking, especially to a man, friend or not.

I disagree.  Colin could have still married her after finding out.  He couldn't stand that she was lying to him and manipulating him though.

Pen told him the most important thing, in her young mind, that Marina was in love with someone else, she was struggling to find ways to tell him more after that had no impact, but he left her.

Edited February 22, 2021 by Umbelina
too

[katha]

If there were proper writers on this show, the next seasons could explore how Pen pretending to be friends with Colin and Eloise  and being friendly with Daphne and then betraying them like that (yeah, she can tell herself all sorts of pretty stories that she stabs them in the back for their own good or whatevever, but that's just delusion IMO) in her columns would have painful consequences for her relationships.

But the writers want to make the columns vicious and cruel, while at the same time somehow not wanting to connect Penelope to their cruelty and sadism. The discussion here shows that this isn't an unmitigated success LOL. They'll just ignore it anyway and play Penelope as a pwecious, aw shucks snowflake who can't be held responsible for her decisions and actions.

[Umbelina]

57 minutes ago, katha said:

If there were proper writers on this show, the next seasons could explore how Pen pretending to be friends with Colin and Eloise  and being friendly with Daphne and then betraying them like that (yeah, she can tell herself all sorts of pretty stories that she stabs them in the back for their own good or whatevever, but that's just delusion IMO) in her columns would have painful consequences for her relationships.

But the writers want to make the columns vicious and cruel, while at the same time somehow not wanting to connect Penelope to their cruelty and sadism. The discussion here shows that this isn't an unmitigated success LOL. They'll just ignore it anyway and play Penelope as a pwecious, aw shucks snowflake who can't be held responsible for her decisions and actions.

These characters are all based on books, and their stories already written.  😉

[QuinnM]

2 hours ago, katha said:

. They'll just ignore it anyway and play Penelope as a pwecious, aw shucks snowflake who can't be held responsible for her decisions and actions.

I don’t know how they’ll write it but they sure directed and filmed it differently.  Every episode Penelope came off as just that a clueless snowflake.  You could have convinced me she was 13 years old.  But in that last 60 shot of Lady Whistledown?  I could swear she looked 30 years old.  It was different costuming, different make up and a totally different affect from Penelope.  Gave me shivers.

[katha]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

These characters are all based on books, and their stories already written.  😉

Spoiler

Well they have considerably veered away with characterization from the books, and not always for the better, in the first series. Including IMO with Pen, who seems nothing like the books to me. So who knows what they'll do going forward.

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by katha

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, katha said:

  Reveal spoiler

Well they have considerably veered away with characterization from the books, and not always for the better, in the first series. Including IMO with Pen, who seems nothing like the books to me. So who knows what they'll do going forward.

 

I know you are not alone in seeing that (that they changed Pen from the books.)  

I watched the series knowing nothing about the books, and my initial comments about Pen are all from that perspective.  I really liked her, didn't blame her, thought it was cool that she'd forged this life.

After that I did read the books, and while I can see that in a few places the editing wasn't kind to Pen on the show, or was unclear enough to make some dislike her?  For me?  I still like her.

I can't see them changing her story from the books though, it's very cinematic and would make a great season.

[janie jones]

On 2/20/2021 at 3:50 AM, Umbelina said:

These characters are all based on books, and their stories already written.  😉

I don't know what the show creators' intentions are, but I think we've all seen plenty of adaptations of books that don't resemble the actual books, so I, for one, don't expect what happened in the books to happen in the series.

[bijoux]

There obviously have been big changes already and we can expect this trend to keep going. However, changing the main couple in a romance novel adaptation is huge. Some people thought the show was building toward an Anthony/Sienna storyline next season and we're still getting Kate. 

It remains to be seen how next season will fair first of all and how far the series will get. 

[Umbelina]

When I read the books last month, I thought all of them would be so easy to adapt, since the stories held together well, and were already cinematic.  I think the main changes will be things to keep the rest of the cast on screen, not plot changes.  For example, instead of a character talking to a random, or thinking to oneself, they will talk to another main cast character, or a scene will take place in one of their houses, etc.

[bijoux]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

When I read the books last month, I thought all of them would be so easy to adapt, since the stories held together well, and were already cinematic.  I think the main changes will be things to keep the rest of the cast on screen, not plot changes.  For example, instead of a character talking to a random, or thinking to oneself, they will talk to another main cast character, or a scene will take place in one of their houses, etc.

IMO the biggest focus regarding changes is to be on people who are NOT the season's couple. That's why we had Anthony’s, Benedict's and Colin's romantic entanglements this season, Eloise's feminist leanings and Lady Whistledown having more of a bite. You can't have characters fading in and out of focus as easily in a TV series as you can in a book series. Not least of which is that you need to justify paying your cast and giving them reason to hang in there when they're not in the spotlight strictly speaking. 

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, bijoux said:

IMO the biggest focus regarding changes is to be on people who are NOT the season's couple. That's why we had Anthony’s, Benedict's and Colin's romantic entanglements this season, Eloise's feminist leanings and Lady Whistledown having more of a bite. You can't have characters fading in and out of focus as easily in a TV series as you can in a book series. Not least of which is that you need to justify paying your cast and giving them reason to hang in there when they're not in the spotlight strictly speaking. 

Exactly, that's what I was trying to say.

For example, stage a scene in the country house of another sibling, or city house, whatever, so if it's in Daphne's house, have her husband come in carrying the baby, happy as a clam, and add to their story that way.  Or instead of Anthony thinking some thoughts about Kate, have him discuss them with a brother or sister, or his mom, same thing for Kate.  Or have two other siblings talking about some action on screen with the "main" couple of the season, but have it also involve them.  Stuff like that.

[secnarf]

6 hours ago, bijoux said:

There obviously have been big changes already and we can expect this trend to keep going. However, changing the main couple in a romance novel adaptation is huge. Some people thought the show was building toward an Anthony/Sienna storyline next season and we're still getting Kate.

I am reminded of My Sister's Keeper and the completely different ending in the movie vs the book. They killed off the wrong sister!

And don't even get me started on the differences between the Forrest Gump book vs movie. Or the Nancy Drew TV series "adaptation" of the books that I don't think can even reasonably actually be called an adaptation as it is so different.

I hope they follow the general plot outline of the books, but there is certainly ample precedent for major plot points to be completely changed when books are adapted for TV/film.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

On 2/19/2021 at 1:39 PM, Umbelina said:

Pen can still be very innocent while still having a sharp mind and great skill with writing.  She's observant, a born reporter, paying attention to all that is going on around her, keeping notes, asking subtle questions.  She has the skill of putting together a witty and well written 3-4 pages of gossip/news.  

Yeah, this is where I come down. First of all, people - women, even - are complicated. And someone is rarely all one thing. The idea that she has to be all sweetness and if not, then she must be all conniving is not only boring, it's fairly unrealistic. Most people - women, even - have different facets of their personality, and have both flaws and good points of character. I'd rather see that these characters - Penelope, Marina, Daphne, Eloise, Lady Featherington, etc., presented as fully realized human beings that possess both good and bad traits than to reduce them to innocent ingenue or evil villain.

Secondly, it's not like Pen was writing pornography - she has a keen eye for observation and a sharp wit. That doesn't preclude her from also being innocent about how, like, babies are made and the finer points of seduction. I don't really even understand that criticism because most of what she was talking about had to do with what happens in ballrooms and state rooms, not in the bedroom. So if the idea that she's "innocent" comes from the fact that because she doesn't understand sex, she somehow couldn't observe and write about what is going on in society - well, that criticism doesn't make much sense to me. 

 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

On 2/20/2021 at 5:52 AM, katha said:

But the writers want to make the columns vicious and cruel, while at the same time somehow not wanting to connect Penelope to their cruelty and sadism. The discussion here shows that this isn't an unmitigated success LOL. They'll just ignore it anyway and play Penelope as a pwecious, aw shucks snowflake who can't be held responsible for her decisions and actions.

I don't see Pen's columns as "vicious and cruel." At worst, Pen revealed a truth that impacted Marina's ability to have everything she wanted the way she wanted, and opened Colin's eyes to a situation he was unaware of.  I don't think that either Pen or Marina are bad people but it does strike me as odd that people are glossing over Marina's agency in this situation - Marina had options beyond tricking Colin but she didn't want to take them because she wanted everything her way.  At the end of the day, Marina's trickery could also be described as "vicious and cruel" (though my own opinion is that it was more immaturity and a bit selfishness) but there seems to be a desire to skip over that. 

[Door County Cherry]

43 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

At worst, Pen revealed a truth that impacted Marina's ability to have everything she wanted the way she wanted, and opened Colin's eyes to a situation he was unaware of. 

At worst, she exposed Marina to all of the ton, ruining any chances she had at a respectable marriage or life.  It's not a mere "she doesn't get Colin" situation.  She could have done all of that with a private message in lieu of a public one.  It might have been difficult to give that message to Colin but I can't imagine it's more difficult than writing up a column and getting it to the publishers in time for print.

46 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Marina had options beyond tricking Colin

She had one option--an old man who likely saw her as an aquisition.  Her lover was MIA.  The brother hadn't yet shown up to do the honorable thing.  She was willing to live on the streets until Mrs. Featherington pointed out she'd be relegating her child to squalor as well.  They tried to put her in a discreet convent but the nun wouldn't do so unless she got a bribe.  

She had an old man option and a young man option.  Those were her two options.  She went with the guy who was mad about her--saw her as a person.  Someone who she probably thought she might have a reasonable chance at a decent relationship with.  The irony is, had she told him the truth from the beginning, she might have gotten that life (unless Penelope chose to blow it up anyway).  So the notion of raising another man's child didn't really bother him in the long run either.  

I think Penelope did it because she loved Colin and wanted to stop the wedding.  It wasn't out of a right or wrong, IMO, since I don't think she would have done it if Marina had Anthony or Benedict in love with her. 

 

[JunebugWA]

I have no problems with Pen outing Marina - it is a dirty trick Marina was going to play on Colin. However, I do have problems with some of the things Lady W (aka Pen) said about Daphne. There were innuendoes about Daphne's virtue and character. Book Penelope is not as mean or cruel to the Bridgertons. Show Penelope is more vicious, just my opinion. 

Edited February 23, 2021 by JunebugWA

[eleanorofaquitaine]

1 hour ago, Door County Cherry said:

At worst, she exposed Marina to all of the ton, ruining any chances she had at a respectable marriage or life.  It's not a mere "she doesn't get Colin" situation.  She could have done all of that with a private message in lieu of a public one.  It might have been difficult to give that message to Colin but I can't imagine it's more difficult than writing up a column and getting it to the publishers in time for print.

She had one option--an old man who likely saw her as an aquisition.  Her lover was MIA.  The brother hadn't yet shown up to do the honorable thing.  She was willing to live on the streets until Mrs. Featherington pointed out she'd be relegating her child to squalor as well.  They tried to put her in a discreet convent but the nun wouldn't do so unless she got a bribe.  

She had an old man option and a young man option.  Those were her two options.  She went with the guy who was mad about her--saw her as a person.  Someone who she probably thought she might have a reasonable chance at a decent relationship with.  The irony is, had she told him the truth from the beginning, she might have gotten that life (unless Penelope chose to blow it up anyway).  So the notion of raising another man's child didn't really bother him in the long run either.  

I think Penelope did it because she loved Colin and wanted to stop the wedding.  It wasn't out of a right or wrong, IMO, since I don't think she would have done it if Marina had Anthony or Benedict in love with her. 

 

No, Marina did that. Not Penelope. It's odd to me that people are ignoring Marina's agency here - Marina is the one that was pregnant, Marina is the one that lied about being pregnant, Marina is the one who who choose a course of action of trickery rather than honesty, Marina is the one who decided she wanted the young, cute guy rather than the old guy because that's what SHE wanted, Marina is the one who decided to turn down Sir Philip. Marina's actions are what are exposed them. Now, I understand Marina was in a difficult spot and again, I don't think she's a villain or evil, just young and immature. But at the end of the day, if MARINA hadn't done all of those things, then Pen's actions wouldn't matter. And I don't really understand why that is ignored.

Marina had more than one option than to marry the old guy - though that was a perfectly respectable option. She also could have told Colin the truth when it became apparent he thought he loved her and wanted to marry her. She chose not to. She chose a path of deception. Again, it's understandable why she wanted to not take the risk, but AGAIN, that was her decision, not Pen's.  

In short, I feel like a lot of people are blaming Pen while ignoring any role that Marina had here and I don't get it. One doesn't have to castigate Marina to understand that she made a lot of choices that put the entire Featherington family at risk. 

I mean, like I said, I like the fact that these two were given a complex story and I think both are interesting characters - there are things I like about both of them. But the idea that Pen is responsible for Marina's mistakes doesn't sit well with me at all. 

Edited February 23, 2021 by eleanorofaquitaine

[BlackberryJam]

2 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

At worst, she exposed Marina to all of the ton, ruining any chances she had at a respectable marriage or life.  It's not a mere "she doesn't get Colin" situation.  She could have done all of that with a private message in lieu of a public one.  It might have been difficult to give that message to Colin but I can't imagine it's more difficult than writing up a column and getting it to the publishers in time for print.

She had one option--an old man who likely saw her as an aquisition.  Her lover was MIA.  The brother hadn't yet shown up to do the honorable thing.  She was willing to live on the streets until Mrs. Featherington pointed out she'd be relegating her child to squalor as well.  They tried to put her in a discreet convent but the nun wouldn't do so unless she got a bribe.  

She had an old man option and a young man option.  Those were her two options.  She went with the guy who was mad about her--saw her as a person.  Someone who she probably thought she might have a reasonable chance at a decent relationship with.  The irony is, had she told him the truth from the beginning, she might have gotten that life (unless Penelope chose to blow it up anyway).  So the notion of raising another man's child didn't really bother him in the long run either.  

I think Penelope did it because she loved Colin and wanted to stop the wedding.  It wasn't out of a right or wrong, IMO, since I don't think she would have done it if Marina had Anthony or Benedict in love with her. 

 

Well, it’s a romance novel, so certainly Marina’s all chances of a respectable marriage were not ruined. In fact, Marina came out of the deal pretty sweet. 

The assumption Penelope could have achieved the same result with a private note is just that, an assumption, which has been debated repeatedly in this thread, so I’ll not go into it.

An old rich man was not a bad option for the time. He might have been gross, but it’s likely he would have been unable to perform and then die off, leaving her with money, position and freedom. Marina had a ton of suitors when the season began, but she rejected them all because she was so in love with George. (Only to not care a couple episodes later that the letter from George rejecting her was faked.)

It cost Colin nothing to say he’d have married Marina anyway. Maybe he would have, but there is a definite possibility that he wouldn’t have. It’s always easy to imagine ourselves making the selfless, altruistic response in retrospect. Colin’s “love” for Marina was as deep as a bird bath.

Of course Pen being in love with Colin was part of the motivation. Her actions weren’t pure and selfless, but that doesn’t make her evil...or wrong. 

[Door County Cherry]

2 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

No, Marina did that. Not Penelope. It's odd to me that people are ignoring Marina's agency here - Marina is the one that was pregnant

No.  Not ignoring.  Just taking into account the position she's in based on what we've learned about a woman's status in this time.  We know that the well bred women on this show know next to nothing about sex and reproduction.  We know that there are very few jobs out there for them--even fewer for "fallen" women.  

 

 

[BlackberryJam]

27 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

No.  Not ignoring.  Just taking into account the position she's in based on what we've learned about a woman's status in this time.  We know that the well bred women on this show know next to nothing about sex and reproduction.  We know that there are very few jobs out there for them--even fewer for "fallen" women.  

Right, but Marina made other, more informed choices along the way. Further, Marina's reproductive ignorance does not shift the responsibility for Marina's pregnant state onto Penelope or Colin. Neither Pen or Colin owed Marina any duty of care, nor should they be the ones suffering for her ignorance. 

[Door County Cherry]

3 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Further, Marina's reproductive ignorance does not shift the responsibility for Marina's pregnant state onto Penelope or Colin.

No.  But this is none of Penelope's business.  She made it her business by being her friend and then exposing her to everyone.

As for Colin...this is tough.  What Marina did is wrong but when I look at what Colin stands to lose and what Marina stands to lose, I still think Colin would have been in a better position.  Marina liked him.  The kids would have been his in every way but biologically. 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

1 hour ago, Door County Cherry said:

No.  But this is none of Penelope's business.  She made it her business by being her friend and then exposing her to everyone.

As for Colin...this is tough.  What Marina did is wrong but when I look at what Colin stands to lose and what Marina stands to lose, I still think Colin would have been in a better position.  Marina liked him.  The kids would have been his in every way but biologically. 

Actually, again, Marina made it Pen's business by telling her ahe was pregnant, telling her of her plan to trick Colin, and by using Penelope as an agent, in her own way (having Penelope, for instance, check the mail every day). Marina isn't some victim of Penelope, she may have had limited options but she did have options.

And the idea that it is okay to have duped Colin because Marina "liked him" and therefore the child would be "his in every way but biologically" is... I don’t even know. Just because he is a man, and therefore with privilege, doesn't mean he deserves to be duped. Remember, Marina's plan wasn't to, like, let him in on the secret once they were married. She was fully going to let him go through life thinking the child was his. That is truly a horrible thing to do to a person (not to mention to the child).

It is very unfortunate that women had so few choices in this era and that becoming pregnant out of wedlock meant ruined reputations and even fewer opportunities. But that doesn't mean we all have to believe that Marina was entitled to what she wanted in the way that she wanted when she wanted. There's no ethical justification for her tricking Colin, regardless of how bad her situation was. (Again, I don't think she is a villain, just mostly immature and not used to not getting her way).

[Door County Cherry]

25 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Remember, Marina's plan wasn't to, like, let him in on the secret once they were married. She was fully going to let him go through life thinking the child was his. That is truly a horrible thing to do to a person (not to mention to the child).

I have a very different POV on this.  I know she wasn't going to tell Colin.  That's why I said he'd be the children's father in every way that counts other than biologically and if she doesn't tell him, he'd likely believe that as well.  This kind of thing used to happen all the time and people lived very satisfactory family lives with the little secret never known without DNA tests.  It's not like Marina was robbing her child of the chance to know the father or the father a chance to know their child.  

36 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

But that doesn't mean we all have to believe that Marina was entitled to what she wanted in the way that she wanted when she wanted.

Nope.  But that also doesn't mean I'm ever going to agree that it was Penelope's place to make sure she didn't get it.  And by making it such public information, that's what she did.  

[eleanorofaquitaine]

3 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

I have a very different POV on this.  I know she wasn't going to tell Colin.  That's why I said he'd be the children's father in every way that counts other than biologically and if she doesn't tell him, he'd likely believe that as well.  This kind of thing used to happen all the time and people lived very satisfactory family lives with the little secret never known without DNA tests.  It's not like Marina was robbing her child of the chance to know the father or the father a chance to know their child.  

Nope.  But that also doesn't mean I'm ever going to agree that it was Penelope's place to make sure she didn't get it.  And by making it such public information, that's what she did.  

And sometimes people didn't live "very satisfactory lives" because information was withheld. For one, as someone noted above about someone they knew in real life, that information could be used at some later date against either Colin or the child by Marina (or Pen or Lady Featherington or a servant or anyone who knew).

For two, the child actually does have a family, even if the father is dead, and it's pretty awful to withhold knowledge of existence of a family member. So that's unfair to Philip. 

For three, it's an incredibly bad way to start off a marriage, and one bound to eventually corrode the bounds of trust. Poldark's plot line with Valentine is a good example of why - George eventually figured out that he was duped and it would not be inconceivable that Colin would have, too. If Marina had a full term child, he likely would have lived with suspicion and perhaps resentment towards the child.

If Marina had told Colin and he had said, "I don't care," and then Pen had revealed it all, I would say there is no question that Pen is the bad guy. But Marina's willingness to be deceptive can't just be waved away.

I will say that I think that Penelope was wrong to go the Lady Whistledown route when she could have told either Eloise or Colin privately and let the chips fall where they may. So I don't think she's totally blameless. Neither is Marina. The only one who is, in that at least, is Colin.

[magdalene]

From what I understand Colin is a very young man at this point in the story and to have his life choices taken away from him by deceit rubs me the wrong way.   Marina had another option by accepting that older man , sure that wouldn't have been as palatable for her but still an option.

On the other hand I also don't like the way Penelope went about to reveal the whole thing - especially how obvious it is that she was mostly motivated by self interest.

[BlackberryJam]

2 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I have a very different POV on this.  I know she wasn't going to tell Colin.  That's why I said he'd be the children's father in every way that counts other than biologically and if she doesn't tell him, he'd likely believe that as well.  This kind of thing used to happen all the time and people lived very satisfactory family lives with the little secret never known without DNA tests.  It's not like Marina was robbing her child of the chance to know the father or the father a chance to know their child.  

Nope.  But that also doesn't mean I'm ever going to agree that it was Penelope's place to make sure she didn't get it.  And by making it such public information, that's what she did.  

It’s okay for Colin and the children to live a lie because they’ll never know and then at least Marina gets what she wants? That’s the best outcome? I don’t get that at all. That’s a purely Marina POV without consideration of the other characters. Penelope doesn’t have to be a saint for Marina to have absolutely, completely been wrong about her plan to dupe Colin.

[companionenvy]

Marina was wrong, yes, but I think, in context, it would have taken almost heroic levels of integrity and self-sacrifice for her to have refused to lie, given the options as the show presented them.

One weakness of the plot is that it absolutely ignores the presence of what seems to me the most logical and safest option. Marina should have returned home to the country, delivered her baby in private and used some of the money in her dowry to pay off a poor family to raise the kid. It wouldn't have been a foolproof solution, and it still might well have led to rumors of scandal that would have decreased her stock on the marriage market. But without any solid evidence of her "fall," she could have re-entered society a year later and would likely have still been positioned to make a decent match.

But apparently, the show does not want us to consider this. So, as the writers have it, basically her only option is to marry before her pregnancy becomes obvious. The alternative is not only permanent social disgrace, but a life in poverty.

That means that unless she chooses the truth and the streets, ANY marriage she makes is going to be grounded in deception. We (for good reason) don't like the old guy, and we do like Colin, so the deception seems worse when it is trapping him. But if the old guy hadn't been conveniently horrible, there's really no moral excuse for conning anyone into marriage.

Even if we're willing to say that it would have been much less-bad for her to trap the old guy, it is sugar-coating it to say "Oh, well, he'll die soon and probably can't even get it up." The guy could well have still had years ahead of him--and not all old men are impotent. In fact, if he had been entirely unable to consummate the marriage, it would have been a real problem for Marina, because there's a difference between a guy desperate for an heir being willing to look the other way on a nigh-impossible timeline, and the same guy committing to a belief in immaculate conception. So Marina was looking at possibly upwards of a decade with a rotten guy who had already shown an inclination to dehumanize her physically--and who would have been a lot more likely than decent Colin Bridgerton to find ways of punishing her for her deception.

As no reasonable person would have expected someone in Colin's shoes to marry her if she told her the truth--even if we assume he actually would have done it--that's not really a viable choice.

So was it right? No, of course not. But the stakes were so high that I can't blame Marina for not insisting on the truth.

[companionenvy]

18 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Yeah, this is where I come down. First of all, people - women, even - are complicated. And someone is rarely all one thing. The idea that she has to be all sweetness and if not, then she must be all conniving is not only boring, it's fairly unrealistic. Most people - women, even - have different facets of their personality, and have both flaws and good points of character. I'd rather see that these characters - Penelope, Marina, Daphne, Eloise, Lady Featherington, etc., presented as fully realized human beings that possess both good and bad traits than to reduce them to innocent ingenue or evil villain.

For me, there's a difference between a complicated personality and total inconsistency. I could believe, for instance, that a man might sincerely love his wife and family, but also be having an affair. The latter is a betrayal of the former, but the two are not incompatible. Similarly, I do believe that Penelope really does care about Eloise and consider her a friend, despite the fact that some of the things she is writing would definitely and rightly be perceived as a betrayal of Eloise (or at least of her family).

That's different from accepting that someone who has no idea how someone becomes pregnant is also capable of making sexual innuendos about what occurs on a honeymoon and predicting that a child will soon result from it.

Even there, I get that there are probably ways of squaring that circle, technically speaking. A person could know that there was some sort of "marital act" that resulted in children without being aware of any of the logistics, or that it could happen before marriage. But it isn't simply a matter of technical possibility, it is a matter of credible characterization. LW's writing style, from the knowing winks to the witty aphorisms to the kernels of worldy wisdom, does not match in any way with a girl who accidentally asks her mother if she can "play" with her best friend.

I teach in a university. Plagiarism cases, unless you've located the original source, are always tough to prove, especially if you're working with limited samples of a student's previous writing.  After all, students do often write more effectively at home than they do during timed in-class assignments, and of course, even in comparing multiple at-home essays, we all want and expect that student writing will improve over the course of their education. But there comes a point at which pretty much any competent judge would agree that the inconsistency is so great that it is not credible that the same student could have produced them.

That's basically where I am with Penelope and LW.

 

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Marina was wrong, yes, but I think, in context, it would have taken almost heroic levels of integrity and self-sacrifice for her to have refused to lie, given the options as the show presented them.

One weakness of the plot is that it absolutely ignores the presence of what seems to me the most logical and safest option. Marina should have returned home to the country, delivered her baby in private and used some of the money in her dowry to pay off a poor family to raise the kid. It wouldn't have been a foolproof solution, and it still might well have led to rumors of scandal that would have decreased her stock on the marriage market. But without any solid evidence of her "fall," she could have re-entered society a year later and would likely have still been positioned to make a decent match.

As a young woman, Marina would not have access to her dowry to make such arrangements. Her finances were completely controlled by her father. On marriage, her finances were completed controlled by her husband. And if she was moving among the ton in London, then she was also of that class at home in the country, and having a baby out of wedlock would have been just as much a scandal there. The only option for doing what you suggest would be for her to be sent away to a place where no one knew her to have the baby, which is what often happened in such cases. But it would cost a lot of money to set up such an establishment and a chaperone would have to be sent with her, so it was a fairly major undertaking. It is well established within the show that the Featheringtons did not have the money for any such thing - that's why Mrs Featherington approached the convent, but then it turned out they didn't have enough money for that, either.

Of course, what they should have done is inform Marina's father and let him make all the arrangements but for some reason this was out of the question - I think because of Mr Featherington's debt. Marina clearly felt that making her situation known to her father was out of the question - and if the Featheringtons were the lesser of two evils there, that probably tells us something.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Llywela

[eleanorofaquitaine]

With either the old guy OR Colin, Marina had the option of telling them before marriage.  In fact, I think that was Lady Featherington's plan with the old guy - not to trick him, but to tell him. And because he was old and without an heir, I think her reasoning was that he would actually see this as a bonus.  Now, the show was very careful to not outright say that either the old guy knew or that Lady Featherington was planning to tell him, but that seemed to me to be the suggestion, so it's hard to say. But that's what I came away with regards to the old guy. So again, the notion that this all had to be deceptive doesn't make sense to me. Telling the truth is always an option.

Logically, we have to deduce that Marina's father was unaware of her pregnancy because the very last place you'd send a young, unwed, pregnant girl is to London in the middle of the season.  It is odd that Lady Featherington didn't tell Marina's father (regardless of the debt that Lord Featherington owed Marina's father, it is still something he would want to know, and it's not like the Featheringtons could be blamed since Marina was pregnant before arriving) and that Marina's father wasn't involved in the matchmaking that was going on - at the very least, to have someone ask him for Marina's hand in marriage. It's also a bit strange that he didn't show up as soon as the news became known publicly. But I know for plot purposes, she needed to be in London and not in the country and that they couldn't just send her away as soon as they found out she was pregnant. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by eleanorofaquitaine

[BlackberryJam]

27 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

With either the old guy OR Colin, Marina had the option of telling them before marriage.  In fact, I think that was Lady Featherington's plan with the old guy - not to trick him, but to tell him. And because he was old and without an heir, I think her reasoning was that he would actually see this as a bonus.  Now, the show was very careful to not outright say that either the old guy knew or that Lady Featherington was planning to tell him, but that seemed to me to be the suggestion, so it's hard to say. But that's what I came away with regards to the old guy. So again, the notion that this all had to be deceptive doesn't make sense to me. Telling the truth is always an option.

Logically, we have to deduce that Marina's father was unaware of her pregnancy because the very last place you'd send a young, unwed, pregnant girl is to London in the middle of the season.  It is odd that Lady Featherington didn't tell Marina's father (regardless of the debt that Lord Featherington owed Marina's father, it is still something he would want to know, and it's not like the Featheringtons could be blamed since Marina was pregnant before arriving) and that Marina's father wasn't involved in the matchmaking that was going on - at the very least, to have someone ask him for Marina's hand in marriage. It's also a bit strange that he didn't show up as soon as the news became known publicly. But I know for plot purposes, she needed to be in London and not in the country and that they couldn't just send her away as soon as they found out she was pregnant. 

I am starting to feel like the Marina setup is like one of those "morality" questions we'd discuss in my philosophy classes. Like these,

https://icebreakerideas.com/moral-dilemma-questions/

You are given only two options, but I would spend time on finding other options, there are always more than two options. 

[peachmangosteen]

13 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Penelope doesn’t have to be a saint for Marina to have absolutely, completely been wrong about her plan to dupe Colin.

I feel this way, but like the reverse lol. Marina doesn't have to be a saint for Pen to be a selfish, vindictive person for what she did as LW. For me, the two basically have nothing to do with each other. It was wrong for Marina to lie to Colin but it was also wrong for Pen to out her the way she did. Especially since imo it came off like Pen did it because she saw any chance she had with Colin slipping away. They both did something wrong and selfish. And neither cancels the other out for me.

[BlackberryJam]

38 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I feel this way, but like the reverse lol. Marina doesn't have to be a saint for Pen to be a selfish, vindictive person for what she did as LW. For me, the two basically have nothing to do with each other. It was wrong for Marina to lie to Colin but it was also wrong for Pen to out her the way she did. Especially since imo it came off like Pen did it because she saw any chance she had with Colin slipping away. They both did something wrong and selfish. And neither cancels the other out for me.

I would agree that Penelope is selfish, but yeah, teenage girl. She's no more selfish than Marina. I don't agree that Penelope is vindictive towards Marina. She outed Marina, in her eyes, to save Colin from a marriage based on lies to a woman who was just fine deceiving him.

Penelope, as Whistledown, is vindictive towards others, and I'll spoiler tag this because some of it is book talk, and I don't have a list of Whistledown columns in the show to compare.

Spoiler

In the book, the Whistledown columns rip up on Penelope's mother's fashion sense, Cressida Cowper, and many of the other members of the ton who are cutting and rude. With the book columns, there's a fine line between Vindictive and Vindicated. 

 

[peachmangosteen]

18 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

She outed Marina, in her eyes, to save Colin from a marriage based on lies to a woman who was just fine deceiving him.

I could believe that’s what she told herself, but I think the real reason was being upset she was losing Colin. Which honestly is fine lol. Like I’ve said before, I love the idea of Pen being a selfish person having fun being kind of a bitch as LW and getting her chance through the column to get back at people and/or help herself while also making money. I have zero problem with that. I do have a problem with her being  just a naive girl who only outted Marina to help a friend, which is obviously how the show thinks we’ll see it but is not how they actually presented it.

TPTB really fucked that by showing her with that smug smile. And also by, you know, having her be LW while also somehow expecting us to believe she’s just an innocent little girl. I feel like they kind of want to have it both ways but that won’t work.

[BlackberryJam]

6 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I could believe that’s what she told herself, but I think the real reason was being upset she was losing Colin. Which honestly is fine lol. Like I’ve said before, I love the idea of Pen being a selfish person having fun being kind of a bitch as LW and getting her chance through the column to get back at people and/or help herself while also making money. I have zero problem with that. I do have a problem with her being  just a naive girl who only outted Marina to help a friend, which is obviously how the show thinks we’ll see it but is not how they actually presented it.

TPTB really fucked that by showing her with that smug smile. And also by, you know, having her be LW while also somehow expecting us to believe she’s just an innocent little girl. I feel like they kind of want to have it both ways but that won’t work.

I don't think Pen ever thought she'd have Colin, so I don't think revealing Marina's secret was about losing him. I think that's where we differ. I think Penelope was realistic that she'd never have a real shot a Colin, so stopping the marriage wasn't about saving Colin for herself. I think Penelope is around 17/18 and Marina is maybe 19? but I'm not sure. Both of these girls are ...girls, without fully developed and mature reasoning. They are acting on limited information and making terrible choices. I just think Marina's choice to deceive is worse than Penelope's choice to reveal so publicly. 

I also struggled with the inconsistencies with Marina, not that teen girls are always consistent, but Marina's position changes were plot driven rather than character driven.  

 

[Callietwo]

4 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I also struggled with the inconsistencies with Marina, not that teen girls are always consistent, but Marina's position changes were plot driven rather than character driven.  

I do think this is a problem with all of the characters though.  And I think Penelope is the worst of them thus far but Marina is pretty high up there in season 1, anyway in how they're writing the characters. 

Spoiler

I'm just finished the 1st book and am half way through the second and I feel this is more to do with the rewrites to make the shows "more dramatic" vs how they're written in the book.  

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Callietwo

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Yeah, I think what stops me short is the idea that Penelope was being "vindictive." I don't think we see any evidence of that whatsoever. We don't see any evidence of Pen "hating" Marina (though obviously she's hurt by Marina's targeting of Colin) or desire to get back at Marina.  So I'm not seeing any support for the idea that she's being vindictive.

I do think you can make an argument for Pen being a bit selfish - and certainly self-centered or self-interested. While I think part of her motivation was that Marina's actions in deceiving Colin were wrong, I don't think it is possible to ignore Pen's feelings for Colin as part of her motivation. So yes, I'm fine in saying that she was a little selfish in what she did. But not vindictive.

Re: the smile - I had a different read on why she smiled than I think most people. I don't think she was smiling because she was twirling her mustache, going "a ha, my plan to disrupt Colin and Marina's relationship worked!" I think she was smiling out of relief that she didn't get caught. But I also think that there was enough ambiguity in that smile that they probably should have left it out if they wanted Pen to remain entirely sympathetic. On the other hand, if you had read the books, you knew that the reveal was coming, so perhaps that's why I didn't see the smile as making her unsympathetic.