Lady Whistledown: Friend or Foe

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, RachelKM said:

This assumes her motivation was preventing Colin being taken off the market as opposed to protecting him from being duped into a loveless marriage, being made a fool, and a lifetime of misery to follow.

The assumption that Pen was doing this because she loved Colin seems pretty well grounded in the show, ranging from her "anybody but Colin" stance to her fig leaf of a protest that she wasn't opposed to it because she loved Colin.

And here's another thing: as Lady W, Pen could have spread any friggin' rumor that she wanted to scuttle the marriage. As we saw, the notion that Daphne and Simon were kissing in a garden was enough to provoke a duel and to have both Daphne and Simon worry that Cressida was going to out them and they would be ruined. Surely as clever as she was she could have said, the equivalent of "My dear readers, I am hearing Lord Foggybottom took liberties with with Miss Marina Thompson."

If we are to believe that the journalistic integrity of Lady W is at stake, Pen could have even told a more veiled version of the truth to do the job: "Miss Marina Thompson has had a former paramour before she came to this ton, raising questions about what bearing this might have on her engagement to Mr Colin Bridgerton. Perhaps Mr Bridgerton would be well served to probe into the affairs of a Sir George Whatchamacallit before he makes any rash decisions." 

The issue IMO wasn't the duping for Pen. She could have enlightened Colin directly and privately to let him make an informed choice. She was IMO scared he would still choose Marina. As Colin himself says -- and we have no reason to disbelieve him -- he was taken with Marina and if she had said straight up "I'm pregnant with another man's child and I don't want to have my child grow up a bastard and me to be an outcast" he would have still married her.

As to the "loveless marriage, being made a fool of, a lifetime of misery," seems to me that is an extreme possibility. There was a good chance the scheme would have worked and no one but the Featheringtons would have known that Marina's child was with George. Marina did have some affection for Colin, just not Pen-levels of love, which was more than one could reasonably expect out of a marriage. Even should the secret get out, "a lifetime of misery" seems overly dramatic. Maybe I am overly seeing things from a 21st century perspective, but as a man with money, he endures scandal for a bit, kicks her to the curb, keeps any legitimate children they have at that point in his care, and moves on with his life by marrying a more respectable wife.

Consciously or unconsciously, Pen did what she did to blow up the possibility of any marriage, happy, sad, deceitful or honest, by putting so much public stank on Marina that even the easy-going human golden retriever known as Colin could not tolerate the concept. She wrote the story in such a way to try to insulate the Featheringtons by pointing out Marina came to them already pregnant, but that didn't work, and they too became persona non grata for a bit. 

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Penelope sobbed near hysterics after. So obviously she does care about the damage done 

I don't remember the particulars since I breezed through the show in one sitting. But I'm fairly sure we cannot tell if whatever tears are crocodile tears, if those tears are because she only now realizes the impact of what she has done as Lady W, whether she is crying not because of the impact of what she has done but because she still is no closer to a romance with Simon, or what.

[katha]

I just think they want to have it in all ways and consequently created a situation where Penelope has acquired way more "baggage" than she ever had in the books. It's not insurmountable, but I don't trust them to know how to handle it in a satisfying fashion. They're good at the froth and fun and vaguely naughty, pretty terrible at the more serious stuff. That only works in individual moments, never in a coherent storytelling way. They wanted to have Lady W wreck way more havoc in society so as to create maximum drama, but don't really want to connect it to Pen and how her actions as Lady W reflect on her and call a lot that she does as "herself" into question.

[BlackberryJam]

@Chicago Redshirt Presumably after she writes the LWD column on Marina and turns it in, but before it is published, Penelope sneaks off to see Eloise that night and falls into her friend’s arms crying. Eloise has no idea why but provides comfort. At that point, Penelope has no motivation to perform crocodile tears for anyone. It’s pretty clear she’s crying because she’s emotionally devastated. 

[Door County Cherry]

8 hours ago, RachelKM said:

This assumes her motivation was preventing Colin being taken off the market as opposed to protecting him from being duped into a loveless marriage, being made a fool, and a lifetime of misery to follow.

Pretty much.  That's why there's such a debate because there's disagreement when looking at Penelope's choice.  

I am of the opinion that she did it the way she did it because she needed to make sure Colin didn't have a choice.  The most leeway I'll give her is that she might not have realized that she was going for the jugular because only one outcome was considered acceptable to her but go for the jugular she did. We have the ability to lie to even ourselves about our motives.

 

 

 

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The assumption that Pen was doing this because she loved Colin seems pretty well grounded in the show, ranging from her "anybody but Colin" stance to her fig leaf of a protest that she wasn't opposed to it because she loved Colin.

Wanting to protect him could also be motivated by love.  I apparently stand corrected in not recalling Penelope actively supporting the, "Marry a dupe" plan.  But that does not change the fact that for anyone, we are better at ignoring the damage that might be done to strangers than that of loved ones. Is it hypocritical that she could live with the knowledge of some stranger being duped but not her friend and crush Colin?  Sure.  But that just makes her a human.  And that she was willing to plead only for her friend makes her tribal, not evil.

As for making something less damaging up, that would be scandal for scandal's sake while lying.  She had already told Colin that Marina had a past.  His attitude was, "So do I."  So it would be ruining Marina publicly and, should he continue to Gretna Green, Colin as well.  As for telling him privately, how and when?  I wish she had done so at the musical they attended instead of stopping at that Marina had a past with another man.  But she didn't.  And, as someone else pointed out, Marina and Colin were already packed intending to elope the following day. 

And, again, it would still come out, at least enough to ruin Marina. Colin calling off their engagement would ruin her. And if Colin left her, it would be doubtful she could get another gentleman to come up to scratch in time before she showed. 

And there was absolutely no chance that Colin would never have figured it out.  Marina was more than 3 months pregnant.  Mrs. Featherington mentioned "six months" multiple times, before the engagement.  Marina had been in London for more than a month when Mrs. Featherington noticed that she had not bled.  And it was several weeks before Marina agreed to the plan to trap someone, initially waiting on a response from George.  Babies that premature did not survive, let alone come out full weight and healthy.  No one wouldn't know.

Finally, assuming that when Penelope came to Eloise sobbing it was crocodile tears is just that, an assumption.  We will have to wait to find out how she feels about it.  

12 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

@Chicago Redshirt Presumably after she writes the LWD column on Marina and turns it in, but before it is published, Penelope sneaks off to see Eloise that night and falls into her friend’s arms crying. Eloise has no idea why but provides comfort. At that point, Penelope has no motivation to perform crocodile tears for anyone. It’s pretty clear she’s crying because she’s emotionally devastated. 

This is true.  It was before the story broke.  Eloise was more likely to be baffled than conned. 

4 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

Pretty much.  That's why there's such a debate because there's disagreement when looking at Penelope's choice.  

I am of the opinion that she did it the way she did it because she needed to make sure Colin didn't have a choice.  The most leeway I'll give her is that she might not have realized that she was going for the jugular because only one outcome was considered acceptable to her but go for the jugular she did. We have the ability to lie to even ourselves about our motives.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if she did lie to herself or if her motives were mixed.  Penelope seemed resigned to the idea of Colin marrying someone else and didn't seem put out or jealous when Colin was among Marina's suitors before finding out Marina was pregnant.  But there was likely at least an element of "Eventually, almost certainly, but not like this."  And yes, she went no holds barred.

I'm not certain Colin couldn't have married her if he wanted to.  He's a third son, so heirs are not as big a deal.  It would have been a scandal, but he might have looked to at least some people like a gracious hero if he chose it willingly as opposed to being lied to and tricked into it.  Even if he had been told privately and chose it, it would come out eventually.  The ton can count to  9 at least. So he would be accepting scandal either way.

Likewise, as I noted above, I'm not sure Penelope had the option of telling Colin privately.  She's a woman.  Even if she wanted to track him down that very night, she couldn't go traipsing around London in the middle of the night and half the places he could be she straight up wouldn't have access to, for instance, his clubs.  Actually, an unmarried woman showing up anywhere seeking an audience with a bachelor would ruin her. 

[BlackberryJam]

And Penelope is what? 16? 17? In the show. She’s not a woman with 30 years of experience behind her, able to reason out every choice, every option. Sixteen year old girls do stupid things. Speaking of that, Marina is what? 18? 20? And she had sex with a boy because he brought her food in church and then compounded that mistake with bad decision after bad decision. Penelope was also working under a time constraint. Colin and Marina were set to leave the very next day. 

[Jess14]

14 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Likewise, as I noted above, I'm not sure Penelope had the option of telling Colin privately.  She's a woman.  Even if she wanted to track him down that very night, she couldn't go traipsing around London in the middle of the night and half the places he could be she straight up wouldn't have access to, for instance, his clubs.  Actually, an unmarried woman showing up anywhere seeking an audience with a bachelor would ruin her. 

So, she had the time and ability to write the column, get it to the printer (which presumably, she took it there at night), and go cry in Eloise's arms, but no time or possibility to tell Colin? Eloise is his sister. She could've even tried to get a message to him through her or she could have requested to speak to Colin's mother, but Pen didn't try because she wanted the news to be as public and damning as possible. What is the reason for disclosing that Marina was pregnant when she got to town, other than to close the possibility of Colin still agreeing to marry and pretending to be the father (had he wanted to)? Sure, the timing would've still been off, but they could have left town or something during the end of the pregnancy to obscure that fact. Bottom line, Colin/Marina could have come up with a plan and solution if they wanted to, which I think Pen knew (and was reinforced by Colin blowing off the news that Marina loved someone else), so she tried to foreclose that possibility. 

To be clear, I don't think Pen is the worst person ever. She is young. Lots of people do dumb and stupid things when they are young and their feelings are involved. However, she certainly had other options then to go nuclear on Marina and Colin. 

[BlackberryJam]

We as adults are Monday Morning Quarterbacking those options. There were other options, but did Penelope, who is at most 17, see them? Understand them? Have an opportunity to execute them? Or did she do the one thing she knew would work, no matter the cost to herself?

As I said people do stupid things, but that doesn’t make them evil, despicable or terrible. There are very real villains in the show, like Simon’s father, Penelope’s father, Lord Rutledge. I wish that this hadn’t come to pitting one foolish teenage girl against another. 

[RachelKM]

3 minutes ago, Jess14 said:

To be clear, I don't think Pen is the worst person ever. She is young. Lots of people do dumb and stupid things when they are young and their feelings are involved. However, she certainly had other options then to go nuclear on Marina and Colin. 

I agree on both counts.  And yes, going to Eloise would have been a possibility.  But it would still rely on the information getting to Colin (even Eloise or Violet couldn't be certain to locate him in time) and it would have definitely brought the wrath of her mother onto her.  There is no way Portia wouldn't learn what she'd done. 

Again, dramatic, ill thought out, possibly cowardly, and hurtful.  But I don't think malicious or catty or vindictive.   And, regardless of her motives, I hope there is a point where she acknowledges the harm she did. 

[Door County Cherry]

45 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I'm not certain Colin couldn't have married her if he wanted to.  He's a third son, so heirs are not as big a deal.  It would have been a scandal, but he might have looked to at least some people like a gracious hero if he chose it willingly as opposed to being lied to and tricked into it.  Even if he had been told privately and chose it, it would come out eventually.  The ton can count to  9 at least. So he would be accepting scandal either way.

He could have married her if Penelope hadn't included the tidbit that Marina was pregnant when she came to London.  

If people didn't know that she got pregnant before coming to London, then everyone would have assumed that the baby was Colin's after they got married in haste.  They'd know it was probably conceived before marriage but they'd play along with the polite fiction of a premature baby.

But once Penelope pointed out that Marina was pregnant before coming to London, everyone would have known that it wasn't his.  And no, I don't think his family, who were already hesitant about the sudden proposal, would have allowed him to marry with everyone knowing the baby wasn't his. 

[RachelKM]

51 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

If people didn't know that she got pregnant before coming to London, then everyone would have assumed that the baby was Colin's after they got married in haste.  They'd know it was probably conceived before marriage but they'd play along with the polite fiction of a premature baby.

Maybe.  And it would be Colin's choice to make.  But there is a difference between the polite fiction of a 7 or 8 month baby and also ignoring that the timing places it pre-meeting.  Even a 7 month baby would have meant that they were having sex immediately after meeting and while she was continuing to entertain a slew of callers.

Some people might go with it and the Bridgertons were probably powerful enough take the hit to one of the men in the family.  But there would definitely be whispers if not outright accusations. 

[bijoux]

On 12/27/2020 at 8:07 PM, BlackberryJam said:

Well, no @Neurochick

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I’m trying to remember the details, but book Marina may have been schizophrenic. That’s not Penelope’s fault. If I remember correctly, the twins tell Eloise that Marina would talk to people who weren’t there and have screaming fits. I did wonder if they were laying the foundation for Marina’s mental health issues by having her motivations and decision whiplash so badly. 

But I agree; shame on Shonda or whoever did the casting. 

 

You're mixing it up with some other book most likely. 

Spoiler

Marina had always been depressed or sad as Eloise recalls. During the time they spent as kids together she never laughed or smiled, chose to stay inside to read over playing with other children, but then she didn't actually read. 

After the twins' birth it was horrid post partum. She hardly left the bed and only saw them when they were brougjt in to see her. She suffered terrible crying jags at night. But no, there was no talking to imaginary people. 

19 hours ago, ursula said:

Now thanks to Marina’s marriage, Penelope and her mother get to continue enjoying their comfortable life after doing everything to ruin Marina’s. But let’s not get caught up in little details like that. 

How do you figure? I honestly don't see the connection between Marina’s marriage and the financial straits in which the Featheringtons find themselves at the end of the season. 

What Penelope did was fucked up, no doubt about it, but thinking about it some more, maybe it's not such a bad choice from a writer's point of view. This reckless thing gives her a chance to take stock of herself and see who she wants to be as both Penelope and Lady Whistledown. Because while Penelope is overlooked, Lady Whistledown shapes the ton as much as Lady Danburry or the Queen. How does she want to use that influence?

She's also IMO a little too influential this early in the game. She's only just come out. She couldn't have started writing before she had done so because she wouldn't have been present at necessary events. And I feel it's to soon for her to become Whistledown straight after her debut. I almost wish there was another Whistledown earlier on and she passed the baton to Penelope sometime during the season.

It's a good exposition device and certainly a popular aspect of the books, plus they got Julie Andrews, but logistically spraking, this may have been too soon for Lady Whistledown. 

[ouinason]

Quote

If people didn't know that she got pregnant before coming to London, then everyone would have assumed that the baby was Colin's after they got married in haste.  They'd know it was probably conceived before marriage but they'd play along with the polite fiction of a premature baby.

 

And that wouldn't give Colin a choice, it would mean that the ton assumed him the father instead and forced his hand anyway.  Because if people thought he was the father and he didn't' marry her, that would be an even bigger scandal.

 

Also Penelope not only could not seek Colin out, because scandal, young women were also forbidden to WRITE to unmarried men.  It was a huge no no.

 

She couldn't stay with Eloise and hope Colin came home at a reasonable hour (for them), she couldn't go find him, she couldn't write him a letter that anyone in his family might maybe see.....

 

I don't think her solution was right, but I don't know that there was much alternative besides letting him be victimized.

Edited December 28, 2020 by ouinason

[BlackberryJam]

6 minutes ago, bijoux said:

You're mixing it up with some other book most likely. 

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Marina had always been depressed or sad as Eloise recalls. During the time they spent as kids together she never laughed or smiled, chose to stay inside to read over playing with other children, but then she didn't actually read. 

After the twins' birth it was horrid post partum. She hardly left the bed and only saw them when they were brougjt in to see her. She suffered terrible crying jags at night. But no, there was no talking to imaginary people. 

How do you figure? I honestly don't see the connection between Marina’s marriage and the financial straits in which the Featheringtons find themselves at the end of the season. 

 

 

You're absolutely right about Book!Marina. It wasn't what I thought it was. I thought I remembered something about 

Spoiler

the children being terrified of her. But it's post partum/clinical depression (I'm not a MH professional, I may be using the wrong diagnostic terms.) I don't think she had a manic phase? But the way JQ addresses mental health is ...not good.

And Penelope and her family are only better off in that Marina is no longer in their household and they don't have to pay for her. Crane didn't bail the Featherington family out of debt. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

@Chicago Redshirt Presumably after she writes the LWD column on Marina and turns it in, but before it is published, Penelope sneaks off to see Eloise that night and falls into her friend’s arms crying. Eloise has no idea why but provides comfort. At that point, Penelope has no motivation to perform crocodile tears for anyone. It’s pretty clear she’s crying because she’s emotionally devastated. 

Having rewatched the parts of the episode, I'll concede that it is not likely that she is crying crocodile tears about the damage done to Marina and her family. (Not impossible that the tears themselves aren't genuine, mind you. It depends on how much forethought and malice you want to attribute to Pen.)

It remains the case, though, that we don't know exactly why she is crying or what (if anything) she tells Eloise about why she is crying.

It could be that she is crying over guilt about what she felt she had to do, about what Marina said to her about her not having a chance with Colin, about Marina potentially marrying Colin or what. Without knowing that Pen is Lady W, the viewer would naturally think it is the latter. With the knowledge that she is Lady W, my take is that it is quite possibly the former. It seems to me Lady W's writings in outing Marina are meant to be, perhaps, Pen reflecting on what she has done as well. Or at least, they apply equally well to what she has done in outing Marina. 

Quote

All is fair in love and war, but some battles leave no victor, only a trail of broken hearts that makes us wonder if the price we pay is ever worth the fight. The ones we love have the power to inflict the greatest scars. For what thing is more fragile than the human heart? The bond between man and bride is private, sacred, But I must tell you, I have learned that a grave fraud is afoot. As if the Featheringtons did not have enough to be dealing with, Miss Marina Thompson is with child and she has been from the very first day she arrived in our fair city. Desperate times may call for desperate measures, but I would wager many would think her actions beyond the pale. Perhaps she thought it her only option, or perhaps she knows no shame.  But I ask you, can the ends ever justify such wretched means?

2 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Wanting to protect him could also be motivated by love.  I apparently stand corrected in not recalling Penelope actively supporting the, "Marry a dupe" plan.  But that does not change the fact that for anyone, we are better at ignoring the damage that might be done to strangers than that of loved ones. Is it hypocritical that she could live with the knowledge of some stranger being duped but not her friend and crush Colin?  Sure.  But that just makes her a human.  And that she was willing to plead only for her friend makes her tribal, not evil.

As for making something less damaging up, that would be scandal for scandal's sake while lying.  She had already told Colin that Marina had a past.  His attitude was, "So do I."  So it would be ruining Marina publicly and, should he continue to Gretna Green, Colin as well.  As for telling him privately, how and when?  I wish she had done so at the musical they attended instead of stopping at that Marina had a past with another man.  But she didn't.  And, as someone else pointed out, Marina and Colin were already packed intending to elope the following day. 

And, again, it would still come out, at least enough to ruin Marina. Colin calling off their engagement would ruin her. And if Colin left her, it would be doubtful she could get another gentleman to come up to scratch in time before she showed. 

And there was absolutely no chance that Colin would never have figured it out.  Marina was more than 3 months pregnant.  Mrs. Featherington mentioned "six months" multiple times, before the engagement.  Marina had been in London for more than a month when Mrs. Featherington noticed that she had not bled.  And it was several weeks before Marina agreed to the plan to trap someone, initially waiting on a response from George.  Babies that premature did not survive, let alone come out full weight and healthy.  No one wouldn't know.

Finally, assuming that when Penelope came to Eloise sobbing it was crocodile tears is just that, an assumption.  We will have to wait to find out how she feels about it.  

This is true.  It was before the story broke.  Eloise was more likely to be baffled than conned. 

I wouldn't be surprised if she did lie to herself or if her motives were mixed.  Penelope seemed resigned to the idea of Colin marrying someone else and didn't seem put out or jealous when Colin was among Marina's suitors before finding out Marina was pregnant.  But there was likely at least an element of "Eventually, almost certainly, but not like this."  And yes, she went no holds barred.

I'm not certain Colin couldn't have married her if he wanted to.  He's a third son, so heirs are not as big a deal.  It would have been a scandal, but he might have looked to at least some people like a gracious hero if he chose it willingly as opposed to being lied to and tricked into it.  Even if he had been told privately and chose it, it would come out eventually.  The ton can count to  9 at least. So he would be accepting scandal either way.

Likewise, as I noted above, I'm not sure Penelope had the option of telling Colin privately.  She's a woman.  Even if she wanted to track him down that very night, she couldn't go traipsing around London in the middle of the night and half the places he could be she straight up wouldn't have access to, for instance, his clubs.  Actually, an unmarried woman showing up anywhere seeking an audience with a bachelor would ruin her. 

There was absolutely a decent chance Colin would have not figured it out. Premature babies happen all the time even today, and there's nothing to say Colin is particularly in touch with the details of reproduction. Plus there is an element of possible willful blindness. Pen concedes that they might fool Colin in perpetuity when she laughs at the plan and says you might fool Colin but not his mother.

But more to the point, there was a huge chance it would not matter if it was figured out as long as it was figured out privately. When Pen confronts Marina with the notion that Colin will find out eventually, Marina responds with another thing that we probably have to take as true: at that point, Colin, being the good man he is, will still care for her and the baby as they ever would. In other words, the most likely scenario in case of discovery isn't that bad: Colin gets disappointed in the fact that he was duped into marrying a non-virgin and raising another man's child, but gets over it and keeps the secret to himself or among a small group of friends.

Penelope definitely had options beyond outing Marina. She started to tell him at the party but was interrupted by Marina before she mustered up the courage to say straight up "she's pregnant with George Crane's child and she's in hurry-up marriage mode to avoid scandal." She could have sent him a letter. Now whether those options were palatable to Pen, or whether they would achieve the objectie of "Colin doesn't marry Marina" is an open question. But she 100 percent could have achieved the "Colin doesn't get duped into marrying Marina" objective if that was all she wanted. It wasn't. 

 

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

And Penelope is what? 16? 17? In the show. She’s not a woman with 30 years of experience behind her, able to reason out every choice, every option. Sixteen year old girls do stupid things. Speaking of that, Marina is what? 18? 20? And she had sex with a boy because he brought her food in church and then compounded that mistake with bad decision after bad decision. Penelope was also working under a time constraint. Colin and Marina were set to leave the very next day. 

 

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

We as adults are Monday Morning Quarterbacking those options. There were other options, but did Penelope, who is at most 17, see them? Understand them? Have an opportunity to execute them? Or did she do the one thing she knew would work, no matter the cost to herself?

As I said people do stupid things, but that doesn’t make them evil, despicable or terrible. There are very real villains in the show, like Simon’s father, Penelope’s father, Lord Rutledge. I wish that this hadn’t come to pitting one foolish teenage girl against another. 

A 16- or 17-year-old generically is still capable of making moral choices. Knowing that Pen is Lady W, she is an exceptionally bright teenager and she knows, if not exactly the ramifications of her actions, at least enough of the general outlines to be held accountable.

We see the arc of what Pen does in "Swish."

She learns of the engagement. The reaction she has cannot be taken as "Oh no, my buddy might be made a fool of." It is heartbreak.

Then she's salty toward Marina and claims that she would never bring scandal on Marina or her family.

Then she tells Colin that Marina loves another still. Colin tells her back, that doesn't matter to him. Before she can go the extra mile and say "she's pregnant with his child" Marina interrupts. Pen is apparently eavesdropping when Colin tells Marina about going to Scotland to get married.

Then she digs up the letters and proves to Marina that the heartbreak letter is a fake in the hopes that she will go back to George and leave Colin for her. Marina pulls no punches and calls Pen's feelings a childish infatuation.

I think it is doing a disservice to the character to act like she did not see fairly obvious options like a. being more direct with Colin about what Marina's condition is b. making a direct threat to break off the engagement to Colin or she would expose her secret c. Enlisting someone like Eloise to get Colin the truth d. writing something in LW that isn't quite so devastating but would still cause Colin to question or call off the marriage.

Pretty much any of those options could have been executed in the time it took for Pen to write the column and get it to press. But none of them would guarantee that Colin would not marry Marina. The only one that would involved making Marina so radioactive that no matter how much Colin might care for her, neither he nor his family would allow it. And that's what she did, even knowing the cost. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by Chicago Redshirt

[RachelKM]

14 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Colin gets disappointed in the fact that he was duped into marrying a non-virgin and raising another man's child, but gets over it and keeps the secret to himself or among a small group of friends.

And that his wife lied to him and likely never loved him and married him for security. 

He actually didn't seem overly concerned about the virginity part.  At least, that was what I took from his "She has a past. So do I," response.  But being lied to and manipulated will sour most relationships.  And marriage til death to a woman who lied and manipulated you into a marriage is not a nice future.  Could Colin decide to get over it?  Sure, maybe.  Or he could be crushed and trapped.

17 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Pen is apparently eavesdropping when Colin tells Marina about going to Scotland to get married.

She wasn't eavesdropping.  Penelope saw the bags packed and Marina told her they were eloping the next day. It was already the evening before when she learned of their intention to elope.  

[Jess14]

21 minutes ago, ouinason said:

 

And that wouldn't give Colin a choice, it would mean that the ton assumed him the father instead and forced his hand anyway.  Because if people thought he was the father and he didn't' marry her, that would be an even bigger scandal.

 

Also Penelope not only could not seek Colin out, because scandal, young women were also forbidden to WRITE to unmarried men.  It was a huge no no.

 

She couldn't stay with Eloise and hope Colin came home at a reasonable hour (for them), she couldn't go find him, she couldn't write him a letter that anyone in his family might maybe see.....

 

I don't think her solution was right, but I don't know that there was much alternative besides letting him be victimized.

Regarding the bold, I disagree. Colin could’ve denied that he was the father and said that he never had sex with Marina, which was the truth. What makes you think that he, as a man, lacked the ability to do that? It’s not like he had been courting Marina for a long time, such that his denial would be unbelievable.

On the rest, I just think this goes to the problem of her being Lady W. All of this may be true with a regular young woman in town. But with Pen, clearly, she manages to get around at night and to hear about everyone’s business, write, and publish it just fine. She can’t be so savvy as to successfully and secretly write this column that has the whole ton gossiping, while also being so naive and constrained as to be unable to tell her best friend’s brother that he is about to be tricked into a bad situation.

[RachelKM]

1 minute ago, Jess14 said:

On the rest, I just think this goes to the problem of her being Lady W. All of this may be true with a regular young woman in town. But with Pen, clearly, she manages to get around at night and to hear about everyone’s business, write, and publish it just fine. She can’t be so savvy as to successfully and secretly write this column that has the whole ton gossiping, while also being so naive and constrained as to be unable to tell her best friend’s brother that he is about to be tricked into a bad situation.

Taking my response to the book vs. show thread.

[BlackberryJam]

31 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Having rewatched the parts of the episode, I'll concede that it is not likely that she is crying crocodile tears about the damage done to Marina and her family. (Not impossible that the tears themselves aren't genuine, mind you. It depends on how much forethought and malice you want to attribute to Pen.)

It remains the case, though, that we don't know exactly why she is crying or what (if anything) she tells Eloise about why she is crying.

It could be that she is crying over guilt about what she felt she had to do, about what Marina said to her about her not having a chance with Colin, about Marina potentially marrying Colin or what. Without knowing that Pen is Lady W, the viewer would naturally think it is the latter. With the knowledge that she is Lady W, my take is that it is quite possibly the former. It seems to me Lady W's writings in outing Marina are meant to be, perhaps, Pen reflecting on what she has done as well. Or at least, they apply equally well to what she has done in outing Marina. 

There was absolutely a decent chance Colin would have not figured it out. Premature babies happen all the time even today, and there's nothing to say Colin is particularly in touch with the details of reproduction. Plus there is an element of possible willful blindness. Pen concedes that they might fool Colin in perpetuity when she laughs at the plan and says you might fool Colin but not his mother.

But more to the point, there was a huge chance it would not matter if it was figured out as long as it was figured out privately. When Pen confronts Marina with the notion that Colin will find out eventually, Marina responds with another thing that we probably have to take as true: at that point, Colin, being the good man he is, will still care for her and the baby as they ever would. In other words, the most likely scenario in case of discovery isn't that bad: Colin gets disappointed in the fact that he was duped into marrying a non-virgin and raising another man's child, but gets over it and keeps the secret to himself or among a small group of friends.

Penelope definitely had options beyond outing Marina. She started to tell him at the party but was interrupted by Marina before she mustered up the courage to say straight up "she's pregnant with George Crane's child and she's in hurry-up marriage mode to avoid scandal." She could have sent him a letter. Now whether those options were palatable to Pen, or whether they would achieve the objectie of "Colin doesn't marry Marina" is an open question. But she 100 percent could have achieved the "Colin doesn't get duped into marrying Marina" objective if that was all she wanted. It wasn't. 

 

 

A 16- or 17-year-old generically is still capable of making moral choices. Knowing that Pen is Lady W, she is an exceptionally bright teenager and she knows, if not exactly the ramifications of her actions, at least enough of the general outlines to be held accountable.

We see the arc of what Pen does in "Swish."

She learns of the engagement. The reaction she has cannot be taken as "Oh no, my buddy might be made a fool of." It is heartbreak.

Then she digs up the letters and proves to Marina that the heartbreak letter is a fake in the hopes that she will go back to George and leave Colin for her. Marina pulls no punches and calls Pen's feelings a childish infatuation.

I think it is doing a disservice to the character to act like she did not see fairly obvious options like a. being more direct with Colin about what Marina's condition is b. making a direct threat to break off the engagement to Colin or she would expose her secret c. Enlisting someone like Eloise to get Colin the truth d. writing something in LW that isn't quite so devastating but would still cause Colin to question or call off the marriage.

Pretty much any of those options could have been executed in the time it took for Pen to write the column and get it to press. But none of them would guarantee that Colin would not marry Marina. The only one that would involved making Marina so radioactive that no matter how much Colin might care for her, neither he nor his family would allow it. And that's what she did, even knowing the cost. 

Again, this is Monday Morning QBing regarding events that happened over the course of maybe three or four hours. And there were no cell phones.

Regarding the two bolded parts, it's a whole that more than Colin getting pantsed at a ball. He's not just being made fun of. He's giving over his life and happiness to another who is lying to him and fooling him. You call it Marina pulling no punches. It can also be viewed as Marina being deliberately cruel to the one ally that she has. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

Just now, RachelKM said:

And that his wife lied to him and likely never loved him and married him for security. 

He actually didn't seem overly concerned about the virginity part.  At least, that was what I took from his "She has a past. So do I," response.  But being lied to and manipulated will sour most relationships.  And marriage til death to a woman who lied and manipulated you into a marriage is not a nice future.  Could Colin decide to get over it?  Sure, maybe.  Or he could be crushed and trapped.

She wasn't eavesdropping.  Penelope saw the bags packed and Marina told her they were eloping the next day. It was already the evening before when she learned of their intention to elope.  

I don't know if Colin fully appreciated that Marina "loves" someone else meant that she was no longer a virgin, which would have been presumably a big deal for him. He responded by saying it was OK because he had flirted with half the girls in London. Anthony takes himself to task for not getting Colin laid at a brothel. So it seems Colin is, if not a virgin, at least inexperienced and is likely under the illusion that Marina's love affair was not physical. It could be that finding out that she was a non-virgin was a deal-breaker, or that it was no big deal to him because he was that head-over-heels in love. We'll never know for sure, but my suspicion is that Colin's wokeness has limits only a little to the left of most men of his time.

Pen leaves before Colin says the name of a specific Scottish town where they would go to elope. Then when Marina and Pen have a confrontation, Pen asks essentially "why are your bags packed? Tell me you not going to (specific Scottish town)?" Now admittedly, it could be that that town is the 1813 equivalent of Las Vegas for eloping couples and Pen guessed that from knowledge of that. It seems to me at least as likely if not more so that she wanted to hear what Marina and Colin were saying to each other, heard about the plan to go to Scottish town, which led to her trying the bolder move of going through Marina's things to try to break up the engagement. There was no scene showing that she learned of the intention to elope between when she left Colin and Marina together and when she was in Marina's room. So the two main possibilities IMO are that she eavesdropped off-screen or she just deduced that they were eloping to the specific Scottish town.  

[bijoux]

4 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't know if Colin fully appreciated that Marina "loves" someone else meant that she was no longer a virgin, which would have been presumably a big deal for him. He responded by saying it was OK because he had flirted with half the girls in London. Anthony takes himself to task for not getting Colin laid at a brothel. So it seems Colin is, if not a virgin, at least inexperienced and is likely under the illusion that Marina's love affair was not physical. It could be that finding out that she was a non-virgin was a deal-breaker, or that it was no big deal to him because he was that head-over-heels in love. We'll never know for sure, but my suspicion is that Colin's wokeness has limits only a little to the left of most men of his time.

Pen leaves before Colin says the name of a specific Scottish town where they would go to elope. Then when Marina and Pen have a confrontation, Pen asks essentially "why are your bags packed? Tell me you not going to (specific Scottish town)?" Now admittedly, it could be that that town is the 1813 equivalent of Las Vegas for eloping couples and Pen guessed that from knowledge of that. It seems to me at least as likely if not more so that she wanted to hear what Marina and Colin were saying to each other, heard about the plan to go to Scottish town, which led to her trying the bolder move of going through Marina's things to try to break up the engagement. There was no scene showing that she learned of the intention to elope between when she left Colin and Marina together and when she was in Marina's room. So the two main possibilities IMO are that she eavesdropped off-screen or she just deduced that they were eloping to the specific Scottish town.  

I don't think Colin interpreted Marina as having been in love as her sleeping with the guy either.

As for Gretna Green, it most definitely was the Vegas of the era.

[RachelKM]

4 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Pen leaves before Colin says the name of a specific Scottish town where they would go to elope. Then when Marina and Pen have a confrontation, Pen asks essentially "why are your bags packed? Tell me you not going to (specific Scottish town)?" Now admittedly, it could be that that town is the 1813 equivalent of Las Vegas for eloping couples and Pen guessed that from knowledge of that. It seems to me at least as likely if not more so that she wanted to hear what Marina and Colin were saying to each other, heard about the plan to go to Scottish town, which led to her trying the bolder move of going through Marina's things to try to break up the engagement. T

Gretna Green was indeed the 19th century equivalent to Las Vegas.  It was a town directly over the border of England and Scotland and had a cottage industry of elopement marriages. It was literally shorthand for elopement. "They've gone to Gretna Green."

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Again, this is Monday Morning QBing regarding events that happened over the course of maybe three or four hours. And there were no cell phones.

Regarding the two bolded parts, it's a whole that more than Colin getting pantsed at a ball. He's not just being made fun of. He's giving over his life and happiness to another who is lying to him and fooling him. You call it Marina pulling no punches. It can also be viewed as Marina being deliberately cruel to the one ally that she has. 

Well, any examination of what a character does after the fact could be reduced to Monday Morning QBing." That doesn't mean anything as to whether the analysis is itself is valid or fair. 

It would be one thing if some random character like Hyacinth -- who is clearly too young to understand the ramifications of spreading gossip -- to have done what Pen did.

Hell, if Pen were just any random 16-year-old girl, there's a plausible argument for her not fully understanding the possible consequences of her actions.

But knowing that Pen is Lady W., who has plenty of first- and second-hand savvy of what it means to appear in her column, it's hard to allow for ignorance of consequences as an excuse.

I am not trying to minimize the nature of what Marina was doing. It is awful and Colin deserves better. But again, it would be just as awful to do it to any poor sap. Pen only cares because her Colin is the intended target. 

[BlackberryJam]

 

8 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

 

I am not trying to minimize the nature of what Marina was doing. It is awful and Colin deserves better. But again, it would be just as awful to do it to any poor sap. Pen only cares because her Colin is the intended target. 

Penelope cares about the man she's known since she was a child more than she cares about regular randos. Yes. 

[Door County Cherry]

40 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Now admittedly, it could be that that town is the 1813 equivalent of Las Vegas for eloping couples and Pen guessed that from knowledge of that. It seems to me at least as likely if not more so that she wanted to hear what Marina and Colin were saying to each other, heard about the plan to go to Scottish town

As others have said, Gretna Green was the equivalent to Vegas.  In England, if you were under the age of 21, you couldn't get married without parental consent.  In Scotland, you could get married at 14 if you were a guy and 12 (eek) if you were a girl.  Pretty much anyone could marry you in Gretna Green as well.  It didn't have to be an official officiant like a government worker or a member of the clergy. 

[RachelKM]

6 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

It didn't have to be an official officiant like a government worker or a member of the clergy. 

This part is my favorite fact of Gretna Green.  Almost any adult could marry a couple provided there were two witnesses.  It was a common second income stream for the town blacksmith in Gretna to the extent that another euphemism for elopement was "marrying over the anvil."

Edited December 28, 2020 by RachelKM

[Chicago Redshirt]

Thanks to all who have spelled out the facts as to Gretna Green. As a newcomer to British period dramas, I had no clue. Or should that be clew?

[Nidratime]

Here's an interesting article that was just posted. It's an interview with Nicola Coughlan who plays Penelope and sheds some light on how she sees Penelope, her role as Lady Whistledown, and how it effects the other characters.

https://ew.com/tv/bridgerton-nicola-coughlan-penelope-interview/

[Chicago Redshirt]

And here's an article about hints that Pen was Lady W throughout the series;

https://news.yahoo.com/17-moments-gave-away-lady-150100169.html

[EyewatchTV211]

7 hours ago, RachelKM said:

As for making something less damaging up, that would be scandal for scandal's sake while lying.  She had already told Colin that Marina had a past.  His attitude was, "So do I."  So it would be ruining Marina publicly and, should he continue to Gretna Green, Colin as well.  As for telling him privately, how and when?  I wish she had done so at the musical they attended instead of stopping at that Marina had a past with another man.  But she didn't.  And, as someone else pointed out, Marina and Colin were already packed intending to elope the following day. 

 

I was wishing the same. I actually assumed she didn't at that point because she was trying to keep that part of Marina's secret. That she was hoping it would be enough for him to hear that Marina was in love with someone else. Unfortunately, it wasn't, and everything else happened the way that it did. Everyone else has said enough about that, so I won't bother commenting on the rest.  

[DearEvette]

Well I am on the side of Pen was trash for what she did.

We are to believe this girl is resourceful enough to listen in undetected to gossip at parties, write it all down, slip off and get it to a publisher -- by the way she had to have somehow connected with, negotiated with and gotten that publisher to agree to print a distribute her stuff all before the age of 17 when she made her come out -- and yet she couldn't find five minutes to tell her next door neighbor the truth about his intended?  Hell she knew they were going to run off to Gretna Green the next day, she could have intercepted them then and told him.

Regardless of what Marina's decisions were re: Colin it was contained and it would be a private matter between Colin and herself.  Pen's actions affected two entire families, mostly hers and her family was already in a precarious position with society as it was.  And even worse, she is a member of this society.  She was very aware that what she did would completely ruin Marina's entire life.  Marriage with a pre-pregnant woman would not ruin Colin in the way what Pen did would have ruined Marina.

My take is that Pen didn't want to tell Colin in the off chance that he wouldn't care about the baby (which we know he didn't).  In that sense is she is just like Marina in that she made a decision that would not give him a choice.  Only again, hers was worse because it was public instead of private.

And finally, I am on the side of 'Pen is trash' because I think the show is trying to have us sympathize with what she did.  If I had to think of an theme of the entire show, it was the shit choices women had in life and what compromises they had to make in order to survive.  But in this case it seems to want to preserve Pen's good character at the expense of Marina because it seems to be saying that Marina's shit choices and compromises are coming  at the expense of Penelope's love and that her love is somehow more valuable that Marina's survival.

Honestly for me the show did not do well by book Penelope.

[TheOtherOne]

8 hours ago, Nidratime said:

Here's an interesting article that was just posted. It's an interview with Nicola Coughlan who plays Penelope and sheds some light on how she sees Penelope, her role as Lady Whistledown, and how it effects the other characters.

https://ew.com/tv/bridgerton-nicola-coughlan-penelope-interview/

Because this is most relevant here:

How difficult was it for her to decide to betray Marina (Ruby Barker) and expose her? Do you think it was a decision made rashly or impulsively in some ways?

She always knew it was the ace card she had in her back pocket, but it's such a huge thing to do. It's funny because we didn't get all the scripts at once, so I was reading it going, "I can see where this is going, but Penelope is not going to do that. She's too sweet and she's too kindhearted, and it would be too bad, because it would not only destroy Marina's life and her prospects and her children's life, it would destroy her sister's prospects for marriage, her prospects for marriage." It just had so many knock-on effects that I went, "She's never going to do it." So when I got the script, and she did it, I couldn't believe it. I was so shocked. I talked to Claudia Jessie about it, who plays Eloise, and I said, "How has she done this? It's so bad." And Claudia said, "She's a child. She's 17, and that's not like a 17-year-old nowadays. She's so innocent, she's so protected, and she hasn't fully realized the extent of the power that she's garnered by being Whistledown." But she feels tremendously guilty. It really eats away at her, because deep down she is a really good, kind soul. But she's just desperately in love with Colin [Luke Newton], and sees him being tricked, and she feels out of control, but then she has the most control of anybody, and she utilizes that.

 

Nicely put. That whole interview is great. Love the actress, love the character.

Edited December 29, 2020 by TheOtherOne

[Chicago Redshirt]

I appreciate the actor's viewpoint. But I don't consider it any more authoritative than anyone else's. Even authors can from time to time just miss the mark on what their own creations do or mean through their actions. (See: Dani forgot about the Iron Fleet and then continued to torch the innocent men, women and children of King's Landing even after it surrendered in Game of Thrones).

[UnoAgain]

On 12/27/2020 at 7:35 PM, bubble sparkly said:

Then, after deciding to go nuclear with the Marina reveal, instead of just telling Colin to his face, she is sobbing and in hysterics over the ruination of her family that she deliberately caused!

I thought she was crying because Colin was leaving... And her plan failed... I mean part of it probably also easily her dad was killed but if its the scene where she's sobbing into eloise's shoulder... While eloise os comforting her telling her its ok to miss her dad etc... Pen is looking at the bridgertons house right after Colin left... Least that's how I read it

[UnoAgain]

On 12/28/2020 at 3:43 AM, RachelKM said:

This assumes her motivation was preventing Colin being taken off the market as opposed to protecting him from being duped into a loveless marriage, being made a fool, and a lifetime of misery to follow.

Well after marina had been destroyed and Colin had been embarrassed and hurt she was all set to tell him her true feelings towards him at Daph's party... But he beat her to it by telling her he was leaving... In part because she kept mentioning  him wanting to travel when she was again... Trying to stop marina and Colin getting together... And as I said earlier after that scene she can be seen wailing staring at his house right after he left... So yeah based on that it seems she was at the very least hopeful that maybe she could get him

[Chicago Redshirt]

I may want to do a rewatch with the knowledge that Pen is Lady W. to see if/how it changes the series for me. Just looking back to the first episode, for example, it puts  a different spin that it is Pen who writes to the world about Baron Featherington's family and the three daughters being put on the market like "sorrowful sows" by their tasteless, tactless mama. Pen uses the fact Lady W said that there were three, but that there are actually four women including Marina, to argue that she should not go on the market. 

I know that Clark Kent writes about Superman and Peter Parker sells pictures of Spider-Man, but somehow this seems different. Maybe because we have the context of their origin stories and we don't yet know why Pen does what she does? Maybe because the self-benefits are just a small part of their gigs? Maybe because the ways Clark and Peter profit off their alter egos isn't so directly to the detriment of others (the occasional case of things like Lois being scooped or having a hare-brained attempt to prove Clark is Superman blow up in her face excluded). 

[UnoAgain]

On top of everything else.. I'm really mad at pen.. And I guess all og her defenders here saying Colin is innocent... So as to mitigate what she did a bit... And he is... He was a gentleman of standing and wealth and the Third son... A scandal while bothersome could be overcome.. He's now the brother of the duke and duchess... All that is to say.. Thanks to his gender and wealth and relationships he was somewhat protected... You know who was innocent and try put in peril... Marina's child... Who Pen put on blast as a bastard of unknown origin.. Hell even the queen herself know knows that marina thimpson's firstborn is a child of questionable  parentage with a fallen and sullied mother.. Who's been branded lower than low... Its only by grace that the child's uncle will look after him/her.. But odds are the child would  be a second class child in his/her own home.. Even to his/her sibling-cousins..and that's one of the more positive endings.. If it wasn't sir Phillip but just some guy who knew.. How would he.. Better yet his family treat that kid... So Pen crumbling into Eloise's arms after presumably writing and delivering the missive that could destroy that unborn child's life .. gives me little sympathy... As she could've spent that time telling her best friend eloise.. Who the show proved in the aftermath of said story would move mountains to help Pen.. She could've explained to Eloise what was happening... If she did feel sadness for marina.. But wanted to protect Colin more.. She could share with eloise.. Who if she didn't force Colin to listen could've told Anthony or Lady Bridgerton.. As both were at the very least apprehensive at the marriage prospect... In part because they weren't too fond of mama Featherington... 

[DearEvette]

8 hours ago, TheOtherOne said:

She's a child. She's 17, and that's not like a 17-year-old nowadays. She's so innocent, she's so protected, and she hasn't fully realized the extent of the power that she's garnered by being Whistledown."

See, I don't buy that explanation that she wasn't aware of the power of Whistledown.  It was established that one of the things that made Lady Whistledown so popular was that she named full names.  Other gossip rags worked more like blind items.   It would be one thing if Whistledown had worked like a blind item, she could have peppered it with clues about Marina that only Colin would pick up so that only Colin got clued in.  But she put Marina on blast full out.  Super sheltered or not, even a 17 year old girl of her time would have been made very much aware of the society she lived in at all times.  Reputation was everything and for women it was precarious which is why they had to be accompanied by a maid at all times or chaperoned.  She knew the expectations of the women of her station.  What was and was not acceptable. It is why Cressida Cowper could have blown Daphne's world wide open with just one word.  If Pen was not aware of what she was doing to another young woman's life when she sent that off then she isn't just jealous, she is monumentally stupid.

[Atlanta]

I guess I feel for Pen a bit. She was ignored by her family, the Ton, and possible suitors. She was friend-zoned by Colin and only her BFF seemed to give her any agency. It's been forever since I've read the books (rereading now but only on book 2), but I wonder if the LW pamphlet started as a way of venting her frustration with society and being a wallflower or started as a private diary. Maybe she didn't realize the influence until it was too late? Perhaps she got a high off of her peers finally hanging on her every word. She got tired of being 'poor harmless Penelope'. The ton was easily bored (they mingled with the same people year after year) and this gave them a little excitement.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, UnoAgain said:

You know who was innocent and try put in peril... Marina's child... Who Pen put on blast as a bastard of unknown origin.. Hell even the queen herself know knows that marina thimpson's firstborn is a child of questionable  parentage with a fallen and sullied mother.. Who's been branded lower than low... Its only by grace that the child's uncle will look after him/her.. But odds are the child would  be a second class child in his/her own home.. Even to his/her sibling-cousins..and that's one of the more positive endings.. If it wasn't sir Phillip but just some guy who knew.. How would he.. Better yet his family treat that kid... So Pen crumbling into Eloise's arms after presumably writing and delivering the missive that could destroy that unborn child's life .. gives me little sympathy... As

Yep. Marina’s kid has just been outted as a bastard permanently for the rest of his/her lives. But hey, Penelope is “fat” and never picked first so she’s the real victim here. 🙄

20 hours ago, ouinason said:

young women were also forbidden to WRITE to unmarried men.  It was a huge no no.

.... young women were also forbidden to write gossip rags.

[EyewatchTV211]

4 hours ago, Atlanta said:

I guess I feel for Pen a bit. She was ignored by her family, the Ton, and possible suitors. She was friend-zoned by Colin and only her BFF seemed to give her any agency. It's been forever since I've read the books (rereading now but only on book 2), but I wonder if the LW pamphlet started as a way of venting her frustration with society and being a wallflower or started as a private diary. Maybe she didn't realize the influence until it was too late? Perhaps she got a high off of her peers finally hanging on her every word. She got tired of being 'poor harmless Penelope'. The ton was easily bored (they mingled with the same people year after year) and this gave them a little excitement.

I also mentioned this in the book vs. series thread but

Spoiler

You are correct that she started the LW writing to vent her frustration and anger at the bullies and people who mistreated or ignored her in society. Kind of like a private diary. She felt better writing it all out for herself after coming home from various events. Then one day, when her family is all out of the house, she is working on it and leaves briefly to "go to the bathroom." Her father's solicitor happens to come by or was there and sees her writing, reads it, seems entertained by it, and comes up with the idea of publishing. He helps her set everything up. But this TV plot point never happened in the books, so we can only guess what factors influenced her to follow through and publish what she did and what consequences she anticipated. You pose some possibilities. 

 

[Nidratime]

Hopefully, how Penelope ended up doing all of this will be explored in a future episode, with flashbacks. In fact, I would bet on it unless the writers are incompetent.

[quarks]

I can't be the only person seeing Sir George Crane as the original and major villain here?

After all, he's the one who slept with Marina and then took off without publicly acknowledging her as his intended, or without taking her to Scotland to look at some nice anvils, even though he had to know there was a chance she could become pregnant and a chance he could die in battle. 

[Gwendolyn]

On 12/27/2020 at 11:45 AM, ursula said:

Marina at several points in time in the story calls the Fs for being wealthy and privileged in a way she's not so while the show doesn't explicitly define her social status, it's clear that she's of lesser status than the Fs. 

I was watching this really late at night, so I will need a re-watch, while the Featheringtons are titled and part of the ton, we know that their wealth is an illusion and they don't have the social cache of say the Bridgerton's, but we do know that Marina comes from a family with enough money that Lord Featherington is in their debt. Is it made clear she's the daughter of a country gentleman or is she of the merchant class, therefore a social upstart with money, but using the Featheringtons for an entree into a higher social class?

Her father clearly is using Lord Featherington's debt to him to find her a husband in a social class to which its implied they don't have access themselves (and I'm unsure if it's race based or social class based in the world Bridgerton is set in, as it's an AU Regency where orchestra's play Taylor Swift songs, no one smells,  has bad teeth or have to step around horse poo). So while Marina's yelling at Lady F about her wealth and privilege, what Lady F knows is that is an illusion (well eventually when she discovers they're broke), all she knows with THREE daughters to marry off, because laws of primogenitor/entailment mean that they cannot inherit and if they're not married before their father's death they could be in worse straights than Marina is when she arrives.  Now she's got competition for her daughters in the marriage mart, so of course when she finds something on this girl, she uses it. Even with that she does try to find Marina a husband that will overlook a 6 month baby and if Marina's lucky will die and leave her a titled young widow. I think after Lord F dies, Marina starts to realize a little that Lady F wasn't as evil as she thought. Hence asking her about a loveless marriage. And Lady F discovers the ill gotten gains from the thrown fight has been taken back by the bookies, so while marriage to Sir Phillip helps prevent her daughters from being a associated with a "fallen" woman, they're still broke and at the mercy of Lord F's male heir.

Which leads us to Penelope, how much of Lady W's gossip is overheard from Lady F, not verbatim, but her negative take on it (because Lady F knows they're not top tier and so she belittles those around her in her gossip), it would explain some of Lady W's stories before Pen's official come out where she was attending events herself. It could explain why Lady W sounds more grown up and more in the know than she actually is, because she's repeating gossip from older women around her?

Also Pen was wrong to out Marina as she did, 100% wrong, and I think the tv writers have written her into a corner with this. Lady W's motivation for pointing out Marina arrived pregnant, so Colin didn't look like a cad for abandoning a pregnant woman. Because you could see by Lady Bridgerton's reaction she was not going to let her baby be trapped into marriage, but everyone would have thought he was involved without Lady W saying she arrived in that condition. And Pen clearly did not realize by Marina being under their roof, she and her sisters were now of questionable morals per the society as well.  So this was a rash decision by a 17 year old, that the writers in their eagerness to build clues to out Lady W in this series are now going to have to course correct. They're going to have decide how vicious they want Lady W to be and realize that reflects poorly on Pen.

[RachelKM]

3 hours ago, Gwendolyn said:

but we do know that Marina comes from a family with enough money that Lord Featherington is in their debt. Is it made clear she's the daughter of a country gentleman or is she of the merchant class, therefore a social upstart with money, but using the Featheringtons for an entree into a higher social class?

 

She is almost certainly the daughter of a country gentleman.  A daughter of the wealthy merchant class would have been viewed as an interloper even with the sponsorship of a peer.  Any interest in a daughter of the merchant class would be viewed as wholly mercenary and she would never be considered a contender for "diamond" of the season. The fact that she was thronged with admirers indicates that she was of their class and had a sufficient dowry to make her acceptable to the peerage at large. 

While a four figure dowry was acceptable for the peerage to be considered an adequate match among the gentry, it would not be enough to elevate a merchant's daughter to acceptability to the peerage.

Marina being a country cousin also cuts against wealthy merchant class.  There were not a lot of opportunities to become a wealthy merchant outside of the cities, especially outside London itself.

Edited December 30, 2020 by RachelKM

[UnoAgain]

I hope we get more Mama Featherington and Marina in the following seasons... I haven't read the books.. And while we've all been griping( and rightfully so)  the show has set up a world of pretty interesting pieces and ingredients they could  expand on book themes but with its own spin... As the critiques roll in.. As its my understanding each book followed one of the kids and while centering them kinda let others play wallflower... I hope tge following seasons are more like a large ensemble that keeps us appraised of certain folks and how their issues are impacting them.. And the world ( and as a by-product the ppl around them) 

[Vella]

Making Penelope Lady W was a stupid decision. It basically suggests that Lady W is her true personality and that Penelope is basically a mask she wears and the Penelope we see for the better part of 8 hours is not the 'real' Penelope. She's not sweet and reserved and kind to the outcast farm girl, or having simple pleasures like wanting to go 'play' with Eloise and be a random teenage girl.

She's a clever, vindictive troublemaker who most certainly made a living spreading rumors about others, talking shit and not feeling an ounce of guilt for doing it. The fact that she so often caused strife for the Bridgerton family speaks to a level of vileness that I wonder if the show even realizes it created. This is a family that has always been kind to Penelope. Eloise is her best friend, she's known and cared for Colin since childhood and Daphne never said a single unkind word to Penelope so how am I supposed to believe Penelope cared about any of these people when she so readily caused grief for their family and PROFITED from it? It's not okay for Marina to trap Colin, but it's totally find for Penelope to write shit about his family for MONTHS on end?

Other than the stupid shock value, I don't understand the rationale behind the reveal. Lady W had no qualms about who she wrote about, no boundaries or sense of morality. She saw all the families as playthings, going as far as including the Queen in her barbs.  That's fine for Lady W, but once you reveal it was Penelope, that brings a whole lot of "WTF?!" into it.  And there is no way Eloise would forgive it. There is no way Colin would look at her as anything other than a vicious rat who gave his mother and sister grief. There is no way the Bridgerton family would welcome her into their home. So what was the purpose of what she wrote?

It just presents Penelope as this cruel, selfish and self-absorbed opportunist.  And if that's the direction the show was going, it would be fine, but I very much doubt the showrunners envision that path for Penelope.

[JunebugWA]

1 hour ago, Vella said:

Making Penelope Lady W was a stupid decision. It basically suggests that Lady W is her true personality and that Penelope is basically a mask she wears and the Penelope we see for the better part of 8 hours is not the 'real' Penelope. She's not sweet and reserved and kind to the outcast farm girl, or having simple pleasures like wanting to go 'play' with Eloise and be a random teenage girl.

She's a clever, vindictive troublemaker who most certainly made a living spreading rumors about others, talking shit and not feeling an ounce of guilt for doing it. The fact that she so often caused strife for the Bridgerton family speaks to a level of vileness that I wonder if the show even realizes it created. This is a family that has always been kind to Penelope. Eloise is her best friend, she's known and cared for Colin since childhood and Daphne never said a single unkind word to Penelope so how am I supposed to believe Penelope cared about any of these people when she so readily caused grief for their family and PROFITED from it? It's not okay for Marina to trap Colin, but it's totally find for Penelope to write shit about his family for MONTHS on end?

Other than the stupid shock value, I don't understand the rationale behind the reveal. Lady W had no qualms about who she wrote about, no boundaries or sense of morality. She saw all the families as playthings, going as far as including the Queen in her barbs.  That's fine for Lady W, but once you reveal it was Penelope, that brings a whole lot of "WTF?!" into it.  And there is no way Eloise would forgive it. There is no way Colin would look at her as anything other than a vicious rat who gave his mother and sister grief. There is no way the Bridgerton family would welcome her into their home. So what was the purpose of what she wrote?

It just presents Penelope as this cruel, selfish and self-absorbed opportunist.  And if that's the direction the show was going, it would be fine, but I very much doubt the showrunners envision that path for Penelope.

Penelope is Lady W in the books - revealed in 'Romancing Mister Bridgerton". However, she is not as vindictive in the books as she is in the show. In the books, she did not target the Bridgertons as she did in the show. Show made her to be a two-faced friend and a cat. 

[Treehugger]

In one of the many picnics and promenades, Penelope asks her mother if she can go and play with Eloise. Mrs. Featherington reprimands her and reminds Penelope that she wears long skirts now, not short skirts like she did last summer.

I think that Penelope's actions were reprehensible, but I also believe that she is young enough to learn and to make amends if possible. This could give the series an out in redeeming Penelope if subsequent episodes show Penelope's journey.

[ouinason]

I think one of the factors in sending Marina to the Featheringtons in London was most likely that she didn't have another appropriate female relative to bring her out.  If Marina's mother was dead, ill, or just not born of the correct social class then her father HAD to find someone who could be her chaperone and minder in London for the season.  Lord F has a wife who moves in the correct circles and is also bringing out their daughters, so dad uses the debt as leverage.  That's just how things were done (according to the approximately 500 regency romances I have read anyway).

 

Marina could have the money, but not the social standing.  She could be the poor cousin.  Or, she could just have a dead or unable mother and need a sponsor for the season.  We really don't know enough about her to judge, besides her disdain for conspicuous consumption.