S15.E20: Carry On (Series Finale)

[7kstar]

21 hours ago, AuntTora said:

I suppose they’d say, if you’re still worked up about it a year later, we did our job. That’s just another way they completely miss the point.

I'm not worked up about it a year later, because it was forgettable and I'll just pretend it didn't happen.  Not ready to do a re-watch yet, but I'll stop before last 2 seasons.  14 and 15 just aren't worth my time.  Not sure there is one ep worth watching.  I'll create a better ending for me and I doubt I'll ever support something that those writers write again. 

Many series have a problem with their last show, but usually there is something in it you can say is good.  Unfortunately, Supernatural's is just bad and I don't remember anything worth my time.  So if their goal was a forgettable ending, they did it in spades.

Dean and Sam slammed their trunk down. "We've got work to do!"

The end.

For now, that's what I'll live with.

 

I'm glad that Mark Sheppard clarified his views, but I never thought he had a problem with the actors and crew.  As much as I loved him on SP, they lost focus on what to do with him at the end.

Jenson is smart about never burning bridges, but I do wonder if he was ever the one responsible for a series, if he could create something that over 90% of the fans would love.  There will always be those that will hate on something, but it will be interesting to see if he could do it...

[MAK]

On 9/4/2021 at 3:11 AM, FlickChick said:

Ultimately, they killed both of the boys - Dean after a short time and Sam after what appeared to be a long and lousy life. So, if their goal was to make sure that by the end, both Sam and Dean were most certainly dead, then they should have had them go out in some dramatic, overwhelming Butch & Sundance scene - together. How many times did we hear both of them say, "so we go out fighting - Butch & Sundance". That Badd wouldn't give them that - I have no words.

I also would have preferred them finishing their lives together. A  Butch & Sundance type of one last sacrifice to save the world or living out their natural lives hunting or whatever without Heaven and/or Hell involved. It was possible to show one of these endings, even with COVID.

Not that they couldn't have relationships, but I never thought a traditional marriage/home/family was in the cards for either brother after the lives they had lead.

[millennium]

On 9/3/2021 at 5:41 PM, FlickChick said:

Ultimately, they killed both of the boys - Dean after a short time and Sam after what appeared to be a long and lousy life. So, if their goal was to make sure that by the end, both Sam and Dean were most certainly dead, then they should have had them go out in some dramatic, overwhelming Butch & Sundance scene - together. How many times did we hear both of them say, "so we go out fighting - Butch & Sundance". That Badd wouldn't give them that - I have no words. 👿

Yes, sort of like the Angel finale, which always sat well with me.

I realize many Dean fans feel cheated by Dean's fate.   I've always been a Sam fan and I feel pretty disgusted by the way things turned out, too.   Just as you said, "They killed both boys."  At least Dean's death was relatively quick.   Sam's colorless, protracted fate, a life without Dean, seemingly devoid of friends and even an onscreen wife, marked by lonely visits to the Impala in storage and punctuated by a bad wig and makeup, is unbearable to think about for very long.  

I know, Covid.  But the script reeked of haste and fatigue, a desire just to finally get it all over with.   The penultimate episode wasn't perfect but it would have been a better ending by far -- in fact, I thought it was the finale when I was streaming, only to discover that another episode remained.

Dexter, which had the worst finale of all time, is being rebooted so perhaps there's hope that the egregious wrongs of the Supernatural finale will someday be put right.

[Aithne]

I left this show many years ago, and came back recently due to seeing the drama in the news about the prequel. So I've caught up (to a point, some of the later seasons were kind of just too much to slog through) and watched the ending, and yeah, this was one of those endings that was just... perfunctory. Like no one in charge cared enough to give it any thought, but didn't want to leave it open for more creative interpretations post-show, either. JA crushed Dean's death speech, as regressive as it was (didn't he give this speech in, like, Scarecrow? Where was the reciprocity about Dean's own strength and awesomeness? Guess we had to rely on Cas's death speech for that), but how much more iconic would that performance have been if it had been in the context of something more meaningful? (Also, having them both standing stiff as boards for it was also really weird.) It felt wasted. (Although I did think it was cool that Dean and Castiel both spent their dying words praising and strengthening the ones they were leaving - Cas really did learn how to love from Dean, in the end.)

And Heaven was so bland. It was all the definition of going out with a whimper. What a blah end to a show that was once really good. 

[roamyn]

On 9/4/2021 at 11:58 PM, 7kstar said:

I'm not worked up about it a year later, because it was forgettable and I'll just pretend it didn't happen.  Not ready to do a re-watch yet, but I'll stop before last 2 seasons.  14 and 15 just aren't worth my time.  Not sure there is one ep worth watching.  I'll create a better ending for me and I doubt I'll ever support something that those writers write again. 

I'm glad that Mark Sheppard clarified his views, but I never thought he had a problem with the actors and crew.  As much as I loved him on SP, they lost focus on what to do with him at the end.

I disagree abt S14.  That was one of the better seasons IMO.  They actually made Jack interesting, Dean had good storylines, and Mary was a minimum.  I just wish they had done something more w/Sam, other than being a great leader of the AU hunters. In fact I’d say of the final five seasons it’s my favorite.

And I agree w/you abt Crowley.  S12 was his worst - the storyline was a joke, and you can tell Mark S just wasn’t into it.  Not that he didn’t deliver his usual snark, but most other lines and his body language just gave off the appearance of being done w/this sh*t.  And I wish they would’ve found a way to mend fences so we could get him in S15.

They brought back unnecessary characters like Ruby, Lilith, Jo/Annael, Kevin (I esp hated his fate, as we clearly saw him go up in 11.20) - all for pure fan service.  And all of a sudden Amara’s this good being on ‘our’ side, when she was this destructive entity & wanted to destroy Chuck’s creations in S11.

But hey, at least Adam’s finally out of the Cage!

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, roamyn said:

I disagree abt S14.  That was one of the better seasons IMO.  They actually made Jack interesting, Dean had good storylines, and Mary was a minimum.  I just wish they had done something more w/Sam, other than being a great leader of the AU hunters. In fact I’d say of the final five seasons it’s my favorite.

It's definitely better than 13 and 15. I'll give you that.  I think I liked 10 and 11 better, though.

[gonzosgirrl]

Coming up on a year since this trash fire aired, and reading this thread still fills me with rage toward Badd and Singer. I continue to hope neither of them ever work again. 

[gonzosgirrl]

On 9/8/2021 at 1:41 AM, roamyn said:

I disagree abt S14.  That was one of the better seasons IMO.  They actually made Jack interesting, Dean had good storylines, and Mary was a minimum.  I just wish they had done something more w/Sam, other than being a great leader of the AU hunters. In fact I’d say of the final five seasons it’s my favorite.

Taking to BvJ

[PAForrest]

Misha m&g from a recent Sunday con regarding the finale - pre & post COVID.

So the gist is that, pre-COVID, Misha had said in Las Vegas that he was supposed to shoot 4 more days after 15-18. That made it sound like he'd be in both 19 & 20, and COVID changed everything. But once again he reiterates here that Cas was never in Heaven, and he played Jimmy in the big party/concert scene, which we've heard before. That very well could take about 4 days to shoot because of all the cameos and the band being there, etc. Definitely a time-consuming set-up.

Whether or not you shipped Dean and Cas or just liked the friendship, or whatever, the fact is that it sounds like Dabb inserted one more F-U to his least favorite character by yanking away the hope that Dean would ever see Cas again. Canonically Cas was his best friend. Whether he shared the same feelings Cas had for him doesn't matter. 15-19 made it clear that Dean wanted Cas to still be alive when Luci tricked him with the phone call, and he'd certainly want to see him again in Heaven along with the rest of his family and friends. Putting Jimmy there was just one more cruel rebar to the back from Dabb, because Jimmy meant shit to Dean and Sam. He shouldn't have been there at all. That was cruelty for cruelty's sake at that point. Hardly the Heaven Dean deserved. I don't know if Jensen knew that part of it back in the summer when he was told to "take it or leave it" with the finale, but I can't imagine he'd have been thrilled with that stupid part either.

So obviously Cas was supposed to sacrifice himself for Dean in 18 as his exit stage right from the series. I don't mind that in theory because Dean is the one person in the universe Cas should sacrifice himself for - not Jack or Sam or anyone else. Just Dean. And I understand Misha's feelings that if Cas returned, it would not be a real sacrifice. But the sacrifice ends up being sad and worthless because all Cas did was buy Dean a couple of weeks. Dean was going to die anyway. Given the finale we got, I frankly think they should have died together in 18. It would have been better than Dean being literally stabbed in the back at the end.

So what the hell was 19 supposed to be about? My guess now is that it wasn't much different than we saw, except for the fact that Dabb and/or Singer had indicated way back when filming started that we'd see a lot of villains again. Maybe all he was referring to were the stupid Party City ghosts at the beginning of the season - except Showalter who directed that episode said there was originally supposed to be a big battle in 19 pre-COVID.

I don't know if the Empty ever comes into play or if it's just one more dropped ball/red herring that meant nothing at all. The Empty should be where all the villains we knew over the years would be - but would the Empty care? If the Empty sent charges from that realm, then frankly Cas should have been among them. But he wasn't supposed to be, obviously.

Perhaps it's just as likely Rowena was going to come through one more time by sending a lot of demons from Hell to help fight Chuckles, and that's where a bunch of random villains came into play. Then the flip side of that in 20 would be all the "heroes" in Dean's heaven - family and friends.

But when you think about it, the bottom line is that the Winchesters were never going to end up being the heroes of their own story. The set up was always going to be for Dabb's Mary Sue insert to become god and save the day all by his little annoying lonesome. The brothers would have been better off sticking around the bunker getting drunk. They weren't needed at all, especially if others were originally supposed to be there battling Chuckles.

Pre- or post-COVID, the finale was a limp noodle.

Edited September 29, 2021 by PAForrest

[MAK]

16 hours ago, PAForrest said:

So obviously Cas was supposed to sacrifice himself for Dean in 18 as his exit stage right from the series. I don't mind that in theory because Dean is the one person in the universe Cas should sacrifice himself for - not Jack or Sam or anyone else. Just Dean. And I understand Misha's feelings that if Cas returned, it would not be a real sacrifice. But the sacrifice ends up being sad and worthless because all Cas did was buy Dean a couple of weeks. Dean was going to die anyway. Given the finale we got, I frankly think they should have died together in 18. It would have been better than Dean being literally stabbed in the back at the end.

IA, Dean is the only one Castiel should sacrifice for.

Unfortunately, I don't think his sacrifice had to do with Dean surviving for a long life or "happily ever after." Castiel was a soldier and I don't think that mentlity ever truly left him. IMO, Castiel sacrificed himself at that moment because he knew, or thought he knew, that it was the Winchesters, together, who would defeat Chuck, whether they survived the victory or not. Especially since throughout the seasons, Castiel has always made decisions because of Dean, for Dean, in Dean's name, whatever, but never because of what Dean actually wanted or desired. I don't think Castiel ever actually asked Dean what he personally wanted. 

Whether it was a day, a week, a month, or years between 19 and 20, doesn't matter, because Castiel's sacrifice only had to do with winning against Chuck, and Dean living even one day after Chuck's defeat was a victory as far as Castiel was concerned. 

16 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Perhaps it's just as likely Rowena was going to come through one more time by sending a lot of demons from Hell to help fight Chuckles, and that's where a bunch of random villains came into play. Then the flip side of that in 20 would be all the "heroes" in Dean's heaven - family and friends.

All this seems very likely also. It would have nice to see Rowena as Queen of Hell fighting against Chuck. But I will never be convinced that Dean's Heaven would be full of "found family." There were a few instances where the boys had forgotten to let Jody know that they were okay, or found, or whatever (don't remember the episodes). That doesn't show closeness.

The pearl gave him his "heart's desire." His blood family together again as a unit. His Heaven would be more closely modeled on that, rather a crowded Roadhouse. I can imagine Dean sitting at a table with a drink, by himself, smiling and chatting with whoever wandered by, waiting for Sam to show up so they could "blow the joint." I'm grateful that only Bobby, Baby (his only home), and eventually Sam were actually shown. 

[roamyn]

On 9/30/2021 at 6:17 AM, MAK said:

All this seems very likely also. It would have nice to see Rowena as Queen of Hell fighting against Chuck. But I will never be convinced that Dean's Heaven would be full of "found family." There were a few instances where the boys had forgotten to let Jody know that they were okay, or found, or whatever (don't remember the episodes). That doesn't show closeness.

I’ve been working on a story abt this, because it recently struck me that Donna gave her “friend in Austin” DEAN’S other, other phone number.  Which she wouldn’t have done if she knew Dean was dead.  So therefore it’s implied that Sam never told Jody, Donna, Claire…. Did he even tell Garth or Donatello?  Garth exp was close w/Dean, as they worked together first.

[gonzosgirrl]

One year ago today, and yep, still hate it. Still hate Badd.

#DeanDeservedBetter

#HellEvenSamDeservedBetter

 

[FlickChick]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

One year ago today, and yep, still hate it. Still hate Badd.

#DeanDeservedBetter

#HellEvenSamDeservedBetter

 

One more to add: Hell, the fans deserved better! I spent fifteen years watching this show, only to have asshole Badd give us this!!!👿

[gonzosgirrl]

At the NOLA con this past weekend, Jensen revealed that while filming the final fight scene in the barn, he encouraged the vamp actors/stuntmen to really give it some oomph when they pick 'Dean' up and slam him to the floor. In trying to help the scene, he forgot to tuck his chin (a technique to avoid what happened, happening) and got his head slammed into the concrete for real. Said it nearly put him out, definitely had a concussion. 😲

You can see it here beginning at 20:25

[Mulva]

I loved the way the ending showcased what a strong person Sam is.  No matter what life throws at him he just keeps on going, making the best of things.  It was great seeing Sam get that apple pie life he's always wanted.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Mulva

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, Mulva said:

I loved the way the ending showcased what a strong person Sam is.  No matter what life throws at him he just keeps on going, making the best of things.  It was great seeing Sam get that apple pie life he's always wanted.

I wouldn't have minded Sam having an apple pie life.  Unfortunately, he didn't look happy at all--or at least, they didn't show it.  We saw no joy, no friends, no job, no spouse (except one glimpse of blurry woman on porch who was never mentioned or shown again, even in pictures) and not even laughing or smiling much.  No interactions with anyone except YoungDean (walking with ToddlerDean and helping TeenDean with homework, which didn't seem that much fun) and sitting in Baby looking mournful.   To me, it didn't seem like he'd really moved on.  I think the writers wanted to show how codependent they really were, and being separated for decades didn't change that.  They were both just killing time, waiting to be reunited.

I'd say the finale sucked for both characters.    And especially for the fans.  😩

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I wouldn't have minded Sam having an apple pie life.  Unfortunately, he didn't look happy at all--or at least, they didn't show it.  We saw no joy, no friends, no job, no spouse (except one glimpse of blurry woman on porch who was never mentioned or shown again, even in pictures) and not even laughing or smiling much.  No interactions with anyone except YoungDean (walking with ToddlerDean and helping TeenDean with homework, which didn't seem that much fun) and sitting in Baby looking mournful.   To me, it didn't seem like he'd really moved on.  I think the writers wanted to show how codependent they really were, and being separated for decades didn't change that.  They were both just killing time, waiting to be reunited.

I'd say the finale sucked for both characters.    And especially for the fans.  😩

I agree. Personally I don't think that the finale showed strength in Sam, just how poorly he functioned without Dean. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by DeeDee79

[Casseiopeia]

8 hours ago, Mulva said:

I loved the way the ending showcased what a strong person Sam is.  No matter what life throws at him he just keeps on going, making the best of things.  It was great seeing Sam get that apple pie life he's always wanted.

I think that was the intention of the montage of Sam's life. For some it looked like he was able to have that family he craved while still honoring his brother (Dean Jr.). To others though it seemed like Sam never really moved on. I mean how could he? Sam spent his entire life with his brother and expected that Dean would also get that apple pie life. That didn't happen so like you said he "kept on going, making the best of things." He had a wife/partner and a son who loved him but his life seemed empty. It was a sad way to end the series for both brothers.

[Pondlass1]

They never wrote a real ending. They just stopped the story.

[MAK]

IMO, SPN was a tragedy from the beginning. There could never be a "happy ending" for either of them, after these 15 years. 

It would have been weird if either of them suddenly got married and lived happily ever after with other SOs. Especially considering that the one thing in all of Chuck's creation that he had no control over was the brothers consistently choosing each other over everyone and everything else. It would be weird if now, without Chuck's influence, they decided to go their separate ways by finding true meaningful relationships with other life partners. 

It was sad that Dean died so soon after being set free, but it was equally sad that Sam had to carry on alone (regardless of wife/partner and son). A tragic end all around. 

[BabySpinach]

I personally think the "gritty ending" ship sailed a long time ago. Just the previous episode, we saw Mayonnaise Sue magically sucking up all of Chuck's God juice and conveniently restoring everyone back to earth, no strings attached. Giving Sam and Dean crappy hollow endings just didn't jive with the show's tone anymore, and it was severely misguided of Dabb to attempt it.

I can guarantee that almost no one would have complained if Dean semi-retired and opened up a bar/halfway house and Sam became a lore expert/hunting consultant, then both died of old age and met in heaven. That kind of conventional, somewhat-predictable happy ending would have absolutely fit what the show became, and we would have still gotten weepy over it, but in a good way.

[MAK]

8 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I can guarantee that almost no one would have complained if Dean semi-retired and opened up a bar/halfway house and Sam became a lore expert/hunting consultant, then both died of old age and met in heaven. That kind of conventional, somewhat-predictable happy ending would have absolutely fit what the show became, and we would have still gotten weepy over it, but in a good way.

I would have loved that type of ending!  My HC is that was what the brothers planned to do. But then sh*t happened and there we are.

I think we got what we did because Dabb literally did not care, because Dabb was petty (he wanted to kill both of them off with a complete finality so that they would have a hard time bringing them back), and COVID.

[gonzosgirrl]

8 hours ago, MAK said:

I think we got what we did because Dabb literally did not care, because Dabb was petty (he wanted to kill both of them off with a complete finality so that they would have a hard time bringing them back), and COVID.

Well, he killed Dean off with finality. There are about 30-40 years of Sam's life that could still be told. One person got screwed by Badd, and it was Jensen/Dean.

[Aithne]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Well, he killed Dean off with finality. There are about 30-40 years of Sam's life that could still be told. One person got screwed by Badd, and it was Jensen/Dean.

That's why I have zero qualms about a retcon, haha. Dude only came into this show in S4, it's not like it's his baby. I'm completely happy if someone else wants to come in and wipe the slate clean. 

[ahrtee]

26 minutes ago, Aithne said:

That's why I have zero qualms about a retcon, haha. Dude only came into this show in S4, it's not like it's his baby. I'm completely happy if someone else wants to come in and wipe the slate clean. 

Cue "Heat of the Moment." 😊

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, Aithne said:

That's why I have zero qualms about a retcon, haha. Dude only came into this show in S4, it's not like it's his baby. I'm completely happy if someone else wants to come in and wipe the slate clean. 

A retcon would be as simple as, Jack changed his mind about interfering and sent Dean back.  But the only way I ever want to see anything SPN again is if neither Badd,  nor Berens, nor Singer (or his wife) have anything to do with it.  

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

A retcon would be as simple as, Jack changed his mind about interfering and sent Dean back.  But the only way I ever want to see anything SPN again is if neither Badd,  nor Berens, nor Singer (or his wife) have anything to do with it.  

I could name a few others that I don't care to see along with your list but I don't think that it would go over well...🤔

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

A retcon would be as simple as, Jack changed his mind about interfering and sent Dean back.  But the only way I ever want to see anything SPN again is if neither Badd,  nor Berens, nor Singer (or his wife) have anything to do with it.  

All they'd have to do is a version of the Dallas "Bobby in the shower" scene.  Something like, Sam wakes up in a hospital bed with Dean sitting next to him saying "Dude, you scared the shit out of me.   But the doc says you'll be fine."  Then they can reset to whatever season they want... preferably before the writing went to hell.   (They can say Sam's been in a coma for years and that's why they both look so old.)

ETA:  A question (probably for a different thread):  if you could reset the show back to an earlier season, which one would it be?  Assuming there would be someone who really loves the show in charge, and that the entire show from that point on would be rewritten?  (That also means characters originally introduced or changed after that point don't exist--though they might be brought in again.)  

Edited December 21, 2021 by ahrtee
Additional thoughts.

[MAK]

It is canon that Chuck controls "time and space," so now Jack conrols "time and space."

It seemed so organic to end it with Alpha & Omega. I wouldn't mind a reset to around that point. No Mary, no BMoL, no Apocalypse World. I guess Jack would have to be born, but Lucifer is taken out quickly. 

Or Sam has been in a coma since Dean found him with the BMoL. Mary can (or not) also be there. In between, the negotiated with the BMoL and they left.

I'd be ok even if they didn't (or did) bring back any dead characters. Let the brothers move forward, not back. No control by Chuck or Jack, no grand destiny. Just being hunters and actually living.

[Aithne]

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

A retcon would be as simple as, Jack changed his mind about interfering and sent Dean back.  But the only way I ever want to see anything SPN again is if neither Badd,  nor Berens, nor Singer (or his wife) have anything to do with it.  

Totally. Or, Jack was evil all long, that thing that came back from the Empty wasn't Cas, and the "heaven" they made isn't what it seems. 

I do kind of prefer these ideas of resetting to an earlier season, though, to wipe the last few seasons out of existence entirely. 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Aithne

[tessathereaper]

2 hours ago, Aithne said:

Totally. Or, Jack was evil all long, that thing that came back from the Empty wasn't Cas, and the "heaven" they made isn't what it seems. 

I do kind of prefer these ideas of resetting to an earlier season, though, to wipe the last few seasons out of existence entirely. 

If they wanted then they could re-do the Michael arc with someone who actually wanted to tell a story and NOT just get Jensen off the screen because everyone else apparently(that seems to be Dabb's belief, he's the one who did it) disappears when he's on screen.

I think going back to when Dabb became show runner and erasing it would be pretty much perfect.  There are flaws prior to that sure, but nothing that can't be overcome or moved on from.   It'll be a shame to lose Regarding Dean as a canon episode, but it really did what it had to(gave Jensen something interesting to act), so it still exists in that sense.  Who knows maybe having Mary come back wouldn't be so bad with someone else besides Dabb running the show, she could have an actual decent storyline where she is both a pretty good hunter and not totally disinterested in what happened in her children's lives while they were gone, she doesn't have to go right into mom mode(which Dean never expected anyway, he just wanted to get to know her) but not sneaking around lying to Dean and Sam getting into bed with their enemies(literally) and caring more about people she met once then them would already be an improvement.  And NO JACK!(Except as Lucifer's evil son).

Or heck even barring that, if they can't just erase the final 4 seasons, have it be a Sam coma as suggested above, HE is the one who got injured in that dime store vampire fight and it was all a coma dream.  The words "dying Dean" is saying to him are similar(not the same as) what Dean is saying talking to him by his bedside, don't particularly like how Dean totally downplays himself and props up Sam in that speech but it's not so bad if it's Dean worrying about Sam, talking to him in his coma after being told he can hear him, etc, etc.  Like maybe the last thing Sam saw before he went into the coma was Dean ALMOST being impaled on that rebar but his mind changed it in the coma and he's thinking Dean died.  Or Dean can still get stuck, which is what Sam sees before going unconscious, but it misses all the major organs as it's more off to the side of the abdomen, so Dean can pull himself off.

Edited December 21, 2021 by tessathereaper

[ILoveReading]

I'd open the season with Sam and Cas pulling the Malak box out of the Ocean and we find out that Dean went through it with and and last season and a half was Michael torturing Dean.  When that didn't work, he did the whole in heaven thing as a way to break Dean. 

 Sam and Cas had to bring him up because Jack absorbed God and went power mad and they need Michael.   So Dean has to try and keep Michael at bay, and also convince him to help, all the while dealing with kind of being half insane from being trapped under the ocean for a year and half.  

I'd acutally tell the Michael story and really give Jensen a chance to play him.

[tessathereaper]

40 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd open the season with Sam and Cas pulling the Malak box out of the Ocean and we find out that Dean went through it with and and last season and a half was Michael torturing Dean.  When that didn't work, he did the whole in heaven thing as a way to break Dean. 

 Sam and Cas had to bring him up because Jack absorbed God and went power mad and they need Michael.   So Dean has to try and keep Michael at bay, and also convince him to help, all the while dealing with kind of being half insane from being trapped under the ocean for a year and half.  

I'd acutally tell the Michael story and really give Jensen a chance to play him.

Ooh I like that idea!

[MAK]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd open the season with Sam and Cas pulling the Malak box out of the Ocean and we find out that Dean went through it with and and last season and a half was Michael torturing Dean.  When that didn't work, he did the whole in heaven thing as a way to break Dean. 

That sounds so good! 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

Ooh I like that idea!

Me too. Amazing what great ideas can be produced when you care about the show and its MAIN characters, and not just your pets and your wounded pride. Gah. Maybe one day I will stop loathing Badd with the heat of the sun, but today is not that day.

[FlickChick]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Me too. Amazing what great ideas can be produced when you care about the show and its MAIN characters, and not just your pets and your wounded pride. Gah. Maybe one day I will stop loathing Badd with the heat of the sun, but today is not that day.

Honestly, I don't think that you ever will, and neither will I. S11 will be my series ending minus the Brit bitch. I wouldn't even mind Dean seeing Mary because he does love her so much and without Badd ruining her character, there can be the possibilities of a wonderful relationship. I think that good writers and creative thinkers could put together an amazing mini-series of the boys, but unfortunately, I believe that ship has sailed. Both *or three, if Misha is included* have moved on to other projects and commitments, so it probably would never materialize. But I would have loved to see it - no BMOL, no Jack, no "God" interfering with their lives and Lucifer only a bad memory. 🙂

[Scout Finch]

Finally watching the dee-lux box set which I bought mainly for all the extras since I had never watched the show until binge-watching Seasons 1-14 on Netflix last year (and then re-watched it there through S8 when I bought the set...which I've started from the beginning!). Unfortunately, had to watch S15 in real time and am debating at this point if I just want to skip S15 discs, and maybe S14--basically anything containing Jack/Jack-related/Jack-adjacent/Jack-referenced...jack squat! I do know with all certainty that I'm skipping this episode. As far as I'm concerned, the series ended with "Inherit the Earth"!

Edited January 16, 2022 by Scout Finch
Oh, also nothing with Mark Pellegrino's obnoxious scenery-devouring..

[gonzosgirrl]

To erase Jack and all things Jack-adjacent - including Psycho Chuck and most things Dabb - I consider 11x23 minus the last few minutes (*erasing all things MOL)  to be the series finale, with a select few episodes from 12-15 as one-off movies of the week.

*I used to say including Mary's resurrection, but as long as the ensuing garbage where they systematically destroyed the character doesn't exist, that scene can stay. Dean did deserve something good, and having his mom back should have been a just reward, not more punishment.

[roamyn]

I happened to like S14, even Jack & Mary, to my surprise.  But I would change the end of S14 to end the series.  Dorky, lovable Chuck doesn’t turn, He doesn’t kill Jack; lop S15 off, but keep Jensen & Christian singing as part of the end credits.

Then we can start over from there a few years down the road.  They’re still living in the bunker, but take more time off from hunting due to age & attrition.  Jack now does the heavy work of hunting.  Cas is back to his bad ass self w/emotions like in S5-7.  Alt-Bobby shows up now & then.  More Rowena & Ketch.  More Jody & Donna.  NO CLAIRE.  No Alt-Charlie (sorry she was too mopey & dark).  Maybe the focus at the beginning of the reboot is them trying to finally get Adam out of the cage.

I really need to see the guys on the beach in Hawaiian shirts!  AND BRING BACK CROWLEY!

[Nick24]

I have a question about that ''masterpiece''. Probably this is a stupid question, but WHERE WAS DEAN'S REAPER??!! 🤬

Sorry, if that was already asked.

[gonzosgirrl]

46 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

I have a question about that ''masterpiece''. Probably this is a stupid question, but WHERE WAS DEAN'S REAPER??!! 🤬

Sorry, if that was already asked.

They caught Covid.

[Nick24]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They caught Covid.

Oh, you made me laugh! Thank you, I really needed that, because after writing that question I made myself rewatch this episode. 

Well, it got worse. I mean, emotionally. A lot worse. On my 1st watch I was too busy hating Dabb/Singer and being in denial.

This time I was focused on Dean and his death. Now I feel completely empty. I'm just trying to figure out, why this time hit me that hard.

I guess, I finally realized the finality of Dean's death. Yes, we've been talking about possible reboot, but I'm convinced they'll never change that ending. 

It leads me to the other point. Dean was so scared of dying alone. I mean, he wanted Sam to stay with him so badly...It's just...idk.. God, how lonely the man had been all his life, that he didn't want to feel that loneliness on his deathbed. So much trauma and pain in his ''Can you stay with me, please?''. He was asking, he was so afraid that Sam wouldn't listen to him and the last look in his eyes would be directed at some empty barn... 

And how scared Dean was of dying in general. Putting those assholes showrunners aside for a moment, then with all that Dean's ''It's okay... it was always gonna end like this for me...We had one hell of a ride...'' he was trying so hard to convince himself in it, because it wasn't OK, it wasn't supposed to end like this and he knew it. He'd known that for some time (at least I hope). But at that moment he realized that that was the end. No cure. No resurrections. No miracles. And with all that speech he was comforting himself  (apparently there was no one else to do it for him), he was trying to stay brave as the true warrior he had always been, because otherwise, all that unfairness would hit him and cause much more mental pain to his physical pain he was feeling and that would make all his suffering even worse. He was doing it for himself, not just for Sam (again putting those assh*les aside).

That is why he wanted Sam to say it too. Dean couldn't convince himself that it was Ok,  he wanted to hear that too....It's like when the things are so bad and you know they're not going to get better and you can do nothing to change it, you realize that....sometimes you just want to make yourself feel like ''Well, I've tried, I've done my best, but it's over and.... it wasn't all that bad, right? Tell me it wasn't and maybe I'll believe that too....''. Dean was doing that I suppose. 

Sorry for that disjointed post. 

F*ck Dabb. F*ck Singer.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Nick24

[MAK]

I usually tear up even thinking about the barn scene,  but your post just made me straight up cry ....

Well, at least I know my tear ducts are clear...

[Nick24]

@MAK I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to upset you....It's just...This is really hard to watch, to write/read/think about. My hands were shaking for about an hour. Jensen put so much heart and soul into that scene. Dean deserved a lot more than turning his death into some kind of joke. This is no joke. This is a grievous tragedy of the life of such a wonderful selfless man whose death was the climax of all his suffering. And that should have been framed that way!

[MAK]

Not upset. Like I said, I randomly tear up just thinking about it. Sometimes a good cry is ... good.

A lot of people say that it was Sam's story because he was the last one standing, but, guess what, the show (and story) ended with *Dean's* death. There was no "story" for Sam after that. He didn't even live "happily ever after." It seemed like he was sad, grieving, lonely, and just surviving until he died. I guess that's tragic(?) but, not "tragic hero" tragic. That was Dean. 

[Nick24]

16 minutes ago, MAK said:

A lot of people say that it was Sam's story because he was the last one standing, but, guess what, the show (and story) ended with *Dean's* death. There was no "story" for Sam after that. 

IA. SPN completely died when Dean had said his last words and taken his last breath. Period. Well, probably SPN had been dead for seasons because of Dabb and Co. But Dean was the last thing keeping that little spark of life alive in the story. As soon as he was gone, that spark was gone with him.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

I've also realized that we don't even know where Sam put Dean's ashes. He couldn't leave them there, could he? Dean said in 11.23, where he'd like it. Did Sam honor Dean's wish or not? 

Dabb and Singer had no right to blame COVID for their total laziness and carelessness. 

[Nick24]

This might be a very UO, but I'm not very fond of Bobby greeting Dean in Heaven. He'd told Dean so many horrible things before....idk...I don't want to see John/Mary either. 

I just can't say who I'd like to see greeting Dean. Wow, this got even worse. IDK, maybe Ellen Harvelle, I kinda liked her. Maybe Charlie. I didn't like Robbie's worshiping her, but Charlie seemed to genuinely love Dean and kind of cared about him. Maybe Henry Winchester (to acknowledge that Dean had been carrying the MoL's legacy with dignity). I don't know. This is so sad, that there weren't many people in Dean's life who would care about Dean just for Dean and who I'd love to see in Heaven with him. 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Nick24

[MAK]

Actually, IMO, Bobby was the best one to greet Dean. As far as saying horrible things, Bobby was 100% wrong about not telling Dean that Sam was out of the cage, but he didn't do it out of selfish reasons to further his own agenda.

Out of everyone we knew who was dead (not including Sonny), Bobby truly loved Dean for Dean, not because he was (fill in the blank with -- the good son, the perfect soldier, the older brother, hunter, protector, whatever). And Dean was comfortable with Bobby, he could be himself, which included everything listed above, and then some.

Dean didn't feel obligated to sit around to make Bobby feel better. His death was one of the many that,  IMO, Dean felt less guilt for. If John/Mary had greeted him, would Dean have just driven off waiting for Sam? Or would he have felt he had to hang around and catch up with his parents? He had gotten his closure with John in "Lebanon." Would he really have been at peace with them? Without Sam?

Don't know if this is UO or not, but I think Dean going off and waiting for Sam was totally in character for Dean. For all he loved helping/saving people, he didn't seem to like to hang out with them much.

[Nick24]

24 minutes ago, MAK said:

He had gotten his closure with John in "Lebanon." 

I can't see that. Dabb/Singer/Glynn just whitewashed John. Maybe Sam got his closure in 14.13, but not Dean* IMO.

ETA: *I guess Dean just made his peace with that. Maybe he didn't want/need that closure anymore. 

24 minutes ago, MAK said:

Don't know if this is UO or not, but I think Dean going off and waiting for Sam was totally in character for Dean. For all he loved helping/saving people, he didn't seem to like to hang out with them much.

IMO it felt like ''Dean can't/don't want to do anything without Sam''. Probably that was exactly what Dabb/Singer wanted us to think. IMO Dean wouldn't have been driving for all those years, he would've found something to do. He just can't be sitting around doing nothing or driving with no purpose. I can only hope for Jensen and Robbie to fix at least that problem.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Nick24