S15.E20: Carry On (Series Finale)

[Aeryn13]

I think it almost always had a certain goofiness but a lot of charm behind it and fun. There are maybe 2 or 3 episodes I would hold up as genuinely great. 

Their essence was destroyed later on narratively but by themselves they stood head and shoulders above the rest of the show.

In the end I'd say Seasons 1, 2 and 4 for all their flaws were the good Seasons of the show. 

[PAForrest]

We're dumping our cable and going to a streaming service the end of the week, which means getting rid of the DVR we currently have. So the decision was made for me as to when to rewatch the finale off the DVR - now or never.  And maybe because I anticipated watching it again with all the joy of going in for a colonoscopy, I ended up not hating it as much as I had the first time it aired - which upon re-reading my initial thoughts, was not as badly as I came to feel about it very shortly thereafter.

It's still not a good enough finale for a 15 year show, and a lead playing the most iconic character is treated shabbily in favor of shoehorning in promo hints for a new CW show. Mark Pedowitz should be slapped repeatedly for including them. Too much is missing and unaddressed, and too much doesn't work. But a lot of what doesn't work actually leaves a wide open door for revisiting the Winchesters & Co. down the line. And I can see where the average viewer would be fine with the finale, except for probably wondering where Castiel or some of the other characters were.

The biggest annoyance continues to be why Dean's life had to be cut short so soon after the events in 19. Why not indicate some time lapse? Costs nothing to do that in editing, and would make it less problematic even as to why Sam isn't with Eileen anymore. With a time lapse they simply could have grown apart. With barely a week or two having been, we assume, un-Thanos'ed, the question remains why she no longer factors in Sam's life?

The dog, cute as he is with Dean, really doesn't make sense. Did Dean go back and steal Miracle from the owners he was clearly running toward in 19? But we never saw the dog in the car with the brothers or in the bunker at the end of 19 . Honestly, Miracle's appearance in 20 makes everything in that episode from the opening scene feel very off - like the entire thing is an AU version of Supernatural's end. And maybe it is?

I missed this Easter egg the first time around, but this time I saw it - Castiel's trenchcoat in the trunk of Dean's car, which the camera clearly focuses on for a couple seconds before Dean opens the boot to take out the weapons for the vamp hunt in the barn. Obviously a nod to Misha who was screwed out of appearing in the finale, which I fully believe he was supposed to be in. And my feeling is this is a detail Jensen probably came up with, as he did with Misha for the hand-print in 18, and as he did back in season 7 with Dean keeping Cas's trenchcoat after Leviathan'ed Cas disappears under the water. It's a gesture, but also feels unreal given the way Cas was taken via the Empty. It shouldn't be there, but it is.

The vamp fight in the barn is not as awful for Dean as it felt the first time around. Jensen gets the bulk of the stunt work because he's good at it - it's why Sam is rendered unconscious for a time. When that happens, Dean is overwhelmed because all the vamps focus on him. And after Sam pops up and kills Jenny - who no one needed to see again - Dean no longer has his weapon and is only fighting with his fists. So that explains why he doesn't get to lop off anymore heads.

Jensen also gets all the dialog in Dean's death scene, which is only fair at that point, even if the dialog is to blow smoke up Sam's ass. Jared at least brings legit devastated emotion. There's still no reason not to have Sam say something to Dean, like "I love you" or "You were the best big brother a guy could ever have." But there's something about this damn Winchester family - they could almost never say anything nice to Dean to the bitter end. Annoying AF.

We immediately see again that it's always been Sam who cannot live without Dean. It's also obvious he has not told anyone Dean is dead. Otherwise why does Donna suggest to the guy in Austin to call Agent Bon Jovi aka Dean on Dean's other phone? That's why no mourners at Dean's pyre. No one knows he's dead at that point.

I've already suggested that the episode can be rewound to Dean's death scene as being a coma dream of everything that happens thereafter. Second time around it's obvious Dean's Heaven is just a soundless, flat, unpopulated TV/movie set. But in watching the episode again, I realized it's just as easy to go with the idea that Dean dies, but so does Sam on the werewolf hunt in Austin a week or two later; and that's why he appears in record time to Dean in Heaven looking like he did when Dean died.

Sam is clearly leaving the bunker for good with Miracle to go to Austin, but the dog who already feels like an imagined component no longer appears in Sam's supposed blurry sad life; and he should have at least been alive and in the park with Sam and the Dean stand-in evidenced by the name blazoned on his Oshkosh.

Aside from the blurry broodmare and the creepy picture shrine of no one except BTS shots of the Winchesters and one lone pic of Sam's supposed kid - his Dean stand-in - the other very unreal part of Sam's "life" is the house. It's very dark and old-fashioned - and it never changes from the time Sam is doing homework on the old dining table to the time he dies many years later in the even more dated livingroom. What's weirder is that the interior of the house looks almost identical to Bobby's house - and that would make sense if everything that happens is Sam's dying dream of a life he thinks Dean would have wanted him to live with a faceless "wife" he can't quite envision.  Aside from the bunker, which isn't a house, the only home Dean and Sam would really know as a constant in their lives is Bobby's.

What if on the way out to Austin, Sam makes a detour to give Jody or Donna the keys to the bunker and the dog. Then he goes to Austin, still grief-stricken and alone, and commits suicide by werewolf pack, even if it wasn't a conscious choice? Given the weird one-dimensional scenes of Sam's life, it works almost too easily.

That was the biggest takeaway for me from the second viewing of this episode. The episode honestly doesn't feel real in terms of the universe the series is supposed to be set in. The whole 40 minutes feel like a fever dream.

Edited February 11, 2021 by PAForrest

[Myrelle]

On 2/10/2021 at 12:19 AM, Aeryn13 said:

I think it almost always had a certain goofiness but a lot of charm behind it and fun. There are maybe 2 or 3 episodes I would hold up as genuinely great. 

Their essence was destroyed later on narratively but by themselves they stood head and shoulders above the rest of the show.

In the end I'd say Seasons 1, 2 and 4 for all their flaws were the good Seasons of the show. 

I'm going to take my comment/question on this to the all episodes thread. 

[Kx100]

Honestly pathetic ending. Great show for so many years. Roller coaster of character development. But the decline in writing is just sad. What a waste. Didn’t even want to bother to watch after Dean died in such a mundane way. I get it- Covid complicated things, but a show that’s been building things for 15 seasons should take time to develop the appropriate ending, especially after the whole ‘deaths books’ things- and Dean dies by being slammed against a piece of rebar? Ok. Don’t waste your time w the finale- just watch episode 19, you’ll be left with a better ending, with the same number of strings left untied. Extremely disappointed. 

[Casseiopeia]

Possibly leaked script from the finale pre COVID there are several pages

 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Possibly leaked script from the finale pre COVID there are several pages

 

It's too small to read properly on my phone. As a (non-shipping) Dean girl, do I want to?

Edited April 7, 2021 by gonzosgirrl

[Casseiopeia]

18 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's too small to read properly on my phone. As a (non-shipping) Dean girl, do I want to?

No Destiel/Wincest moments that I could see or interpret.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Casseiopeia

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

No Destiel/Wincest moments that I could see or interpret.

Actually, it's still post-COVID, dated 9/11/20. So these still aren't the original pre-COVID scripts. I've read through both of them, and mostly what's missing from the final aired product is some exposition and a few scenes between characters that frankly would have gone a long way to making certain scenes make more sense. But unfortunately exposition is exactly the kind of thing that gets cut down in the end, either in directing or editing.

As bad as 19 was, I think it works better without the lame ass video montage. Plus apparently there's a final scene with a newscaster from the area they were in when Jack brings everyone back talking about pet adoption days. Totally explains Miracle who was obviously part of a pet adoption site that all disappeared, and he was loose when everything was brought back. So the assumption is Dean goes back and adopts the dog - he doesn't steal him and it isn't an AU. That kind of information would be handy to know.

We're also supposed to know that it's been six months between 19-20 at the start of 20. Still a shitty short time for Dean to enjoy any kind of a life, but at least it wouldn't have come off like it was only a week, two at most, the way the final product did.

ETA: I don't know if it will ever happen, if anyone will get comfortable enough or even allowed to talk about what would have gone down in 19 & 20 pre-COVID. I think 19 must have changed far more radically. For instance, we already know from Showalter that there would have been a big battle scene in 19. But that's the information I really want.

Edited April 7, 2021 by PAForrest
addition

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

We're also supposed to know that it's been six months between 19-20 at the start of 20. Still a shitty short time for Dean to enjoy any kind of a life, but at least it wouldn't have come off like it was only a week, two at most, the way the final product did.

That's one thing I would have really liked to see.  And all they had to do was add a card or something onscreen to say "six months later..."  Sheesh.  

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Actually, it's still post-COVID, dated 9/11/20. So these still aren't the original pre-COVID scripts. I've read through both of them, and mostly what's missing from the final aired product is some exposition and a few scenes between characters that frankly would have gone a long way to making certain scenes make more sense. But unfortunately exposition is exactly the kind of thing that gets cut down in the end, either in directing or editing.

As bad as 19 was, I think it works better without the lame ass video montage. Plus apparently there's a final scene with a newscaster from the area they were in when Jack brings everyone back talking about pet adoption days. Totally explains Miracle who was obviously part of a pet adoption site that all disappeared, and he was loose when everything was brought back. So the assumption is Dean goes back and adopts the dog - he doesn't steal him and it isn't an AU. That kind of information would be handy to know.

We're also supposed to know that it's been six months between 19-20 at the start of 20. Still a shitty short time for Dean to enjoy any kind of a life, but at least it wouldn't have come off like it was only a week, two at most, the way the final product did.

ETA: I don't know if it will ever happen, if anyone will get comfortable enough or even allowed to talk about what would have gone down in 19 & 20 pre-COVID. I think 19 must have changed far more radically. For instance, we already know from Showalter that there would have been a big battle scene in 19. But that's the information I really want.

OK I thought I read it was pre COVID.  It didn't really add much to the finale in any case.

[PAForrest]

19 hours ago, ahrtee said:

That's one thing I would have really liked to see.  And all they had to do was add a card or something onscreen to say "six months later..."  Sheesh.  

That's exactly the kind of effect that happens in editing and costs them literally nothing at all. So what the hell? Why did they opt instead for it to look like only a week or two had passed?

The thing that kills me is cutting out the scenes with Jodi, Eileen, even Rowena getting the news that Dean had died and clearly mourning him, as if he actually mattered to the world. Because he did, dammit. These are one-person scenes they could have even shot in LA to get around the whole travel/quarantine problem. I think those are the biggest loss to the episode.

[gonzosgirrl]

36 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

The thing that kills me is cutting out the scenes with Jodi, Eileen, even Rowena getting the news that Dean had died and clearly mourning him, as if he actually mattered to the world. Because he did, dammit. These are one-person scenes they could have even shot in LA to get around the whole travel/quarantine problem. I think those are the biggest loss to the episode.

This, always and forever. He died without one single person saying a word about his passing. Dean Fucking Winchester. I will hate Badd forever, no matter what kind of retconning bullshit he or anyone from his team spouts to try and justify it.

[iMonrey]

Just finished binging the entire series on Netflix. My issue with the ending was how quickly Dean accepted his fate. I understand the limitations they were under due to Covid, and I understand what they were trying to do with Dean's death, so I can get past a lot. But the problem for me is that Dean survived so much worse than this. He got the crap kicked out of him by Chuck just one episode prior. Something like this should have been like a flesh wound as far as he was concerned. So for him to suddenly go "Nope, that's my number up, time to say goodbye" just didn't feel genuine to me. The whole goodbye speech didn't feel earned.

I also didn't understand why Sam wasn't hollering for Jack to come save him. Yeah, yeah, I know Jack wasn't going to interfere with free will and there was some indication he had "gone" somewhere else, but I still can't believe Sam's gut instinct wouldn't have been to call out for him to help, just to see. 

I think this would have worked better for me if Dean had had to sacrifice himself to save Sam, sort of like Castiel did for Dean. But I also get that they had already been down that road so maybe there's no good answer here. The death just felt rushed in every way.

[Casseiopeia]

27 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

. The death just felt rushed in every way.

I watched it the other day. Not counting commercials it was about 17 min. into the ep that Dean was impaled, 4 min for the death scene and pretty much no dialog for the rest of the episode.  

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Just finished binging the entire series on Netflix. My issue with the ending was how quickly Dean accepted his fate. I understand the limitations they were under due to Covid, and I understand what they were trying to do with Dean's death, so I can get past a lot. But the problem for me is that Dean survived so much worse than this. He got the crap kicked out of him by Chuck just one episode prior. Something like this should have been like a flesh wound as far as he was concerned. So for him to suddenly go "Nope, that's my number up, time to say goodbye" just didn't feel genuine to me. The whole goodbye speech didn't feel earned.

I also didn't understand why Sam wasn't hollering for Jack to come save him. Yeah, yeah, I know Jack wasn't going to interfere with free will and there was some indication he had "gone" somewhere else, but I still can't believe Sam's gut instinct wouldn't have been to call out for him to help, just to see. 

I think this would have worked better for me if Dean had had to sacrifice himself to save Sam, sort of like Castiel did for Dean. But I also get that they had already been down that road so maybe there's no good answer here. The death just felt rushed in every way.

I'm still not able to talk about that half-assed finale, much less watch it again.

Not in any kind of an in-depth way.

Writing-wise, it still feels to me as if it was little more than straight up character regression for Dean, yet again and some more, with my reasons for feeling that way belonging more in the B vs J thread. 

But I think that I can add here that yet once again, Jensen Ackles acting stole the episode right out from under all the writers' nonsense, and his Critic's Choice Best Actor Award win was proof of that, AFAIC. 

Jensen's acting was the one and only superlative in this sorry excuse for a series finale that Dabb tried to pawn off on us, IMO.

And that's how I've had to learn to reconcile myself and my thoughts with it, at this point, because not only did Dean's death feel rushed and OOC to me also, but it also felt incredibly under appreciated from both the writing standpoint and from the canon within the actual series-long storyboard standpoint-and yes, covid was no excuse for that at all AFAIC too.

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Myrelle

[Casseiopeia]

Don't let Jensen near Baby props...

[Pondlass1]

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

But the problem for me is that Dean survived so much worse than this

It just killed me... the cheap pathetic way they had Dean F. Winchester die. 

[shoetingstar]

16 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

It just killed me... the cheap pathetic way they had Dean F. Winchester die. 

A first time viewer could have come up with something more compelling. They just didn't give a fuck.

And I told ya'll before the finale that every awful thing was going to be blamed on COVID. Yes it took everyone by surprise and had a huge impact on the industry. But I bet what we got is probably equal to their original intent = completion of their disregard for Dean and lack of appreciation of Jensen. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by shoetingstar

[PAForrest]

8 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

And I told ya'll before finale that every awful thing was going to be blamed on COVID. Yes it took everyone by surprise and had a huge impact on the industry. But I bet what we got is probably equal to their original intent = completion of their disregard for Dean and lack of appreciation of Jensen. 

Apparently - and I didn't listen to it myself because I just can't anymore - one of the extras on the series dvd set has Singer and Dabb, or tells of Singer and Dabb, being all shits and giggles that the one thing they always wanted to accomplish with the finale, if not the ONLY thing, was killing Dean Winchester. Sounds like they would have been fine doing just that and filling the rest of the episode with more lame music montages. So essentially you're right, COVID changed nothing really except for the number of guest star cameos they would have lined up for 19 and 20.

I also realized that the deleted scene with Dean & Sam in the car talking about boarding Miracle makes it seem, or rather very clear, that this is the first hunt they've gone on since the end of 19 and however long it takes Dean to go back and adopt Miracle (guessing a day or two).

So while an early draft intention might have been to say it was "Six Months Later", it was obviously changed to make it clear it hadn't been more than one-three weeks after 19 at best. But that's how almost all viewers understood it anyway, save for Dabb apologists. And not even all those tried to sell the idea that it was more than a couple weeks after 19 that Dean was stupidly slaughtered. What's on screen is what's on screen. Your eyes do not deceive.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just go watch the featurettes for S15 and pay attention to Badd. He did exactly what he wanted to do (to Dean), regardless of any changes effected by Covid.  There is no other excuse or explanation for killing off one of the two leads 20 minutes into the finale and then never having even one character say a good word about him (including Sam), never mind mourn him or lament his death (except for Sam).

And I'm sorry, the weird speech from Castiel in 15x19, which was, in my opinion, nothing but fan-service to a very narrow segment of the fandom and so OTT as to be laughable, does not make up for it.

Dabb made Dean's death all about Sam, which, whatever, but to have him let his brother die without a single word of comfort or any attempt to reciprocate the love and admiration Dean expressed. Screw that.

[shoetingstar]

29 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Apparently - and I didn't listen to it myself because I just can't anymore - one of the extras on the series dvd set has Singer and Dabb, or tells of Singer and Dabb, being all shits and giggles that the one thing they always wanted to accomplish with the finale, if not the ONLY thing, was killing Dean Winchester. Sounds like they would have been fine doing just that and filling the rest of the episode with more lame music montages. So essentially you're right, COVID changed nothing really except for the number of guest star cameos they would have lined up for 19 and 20.

I also realized that the deleted scene with Dean & Sam in the car talking about boarding Miracle makes it seem, or rather very clear, that this is the first hunt they've gone on since the end of 19 and however long it takes Dean to go back and adopt Miracle (guessing a day or two).

So while an early draft intention might have been to say it was "Six Months Later", it was obviously changed to make it clear it hadn't been more than one-three weeks after 19 at best. But that's how almost all viewers understood it anyway, save for Dabb apologists. And not even all those tried to sell the idea that it was more than a couple weeks after 19 that Dean was stupidly slaughtered. What's on screen is what's on screen. Your eyes do not deceive.

I rather I had been wrong and a real life Miracle took over the script and gave us something worthy of this man’s 15 season struggles to save good people. 

The hunt was so excessively thoughtless that I've seriously teared up in frustration when I think about. So I try not to think about it. I'd rather Jared's Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid had been the finale of someone had to die. 

Here's the thing, making the think that kills Dean be a normal hunt - not my favorite but not bad in and of itself. But put some actual teeth on it, like care. Make what seemed like an easy situation turn out to be catastrophic. Show Sam trying to save him and showing real emotion. Give a real reason why Dean would just give in to death at this point.

I know there's an equivalent to what I'm describing but I can't pull it up just now. 

27 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Just go watch the featurettes for S15 and pay attention to Badd. He did exactly what he wanted to do (to Dean), regardless of any changes effected by Covid.  There is no other excuse or explanation for killing off one of the two leads 20 minutes into the finale and then never having even one character say a good word about him (including Sam), never mind mourn him or lament his death (except for Sam).

And I'm sorry, the weird speech from Castiel in 15x19, which was, in my opinion, nothing but fan-service to a very narrow segment of the fandom and so OTT as to be laughable, does not make up for it.

Dabb made Dean's death all about Sam, which, whatever, but to have him let his brother die without a single word of comfort or any attempt to reciprocate the love and admiration Dean expressed. Screw that.

I've never seen a series lead treated this way. I didn't hate the Castiel speech at the time. In fact, I found it moving, if only someone finally expressed to Dean how amazing he is. The show beats him up at every moment but doesn't balance it with his goodness.  Now, not so much due to the Implications, seen and unforseen, that took over the series finale. I just avoid anything related to it at this point. 

Guys, when I think about Dean's death and rewind the first episode coming to his little brother because his Dad is essentially missing. "Dad's on a hunting trip and he hasn't been home in a few days". I actually teared up. It's beyond unfortunate. Not even the death itself, but the aggressive disrespect for this character (and Jensen). Fighting Things, Hunting people, instead of just sitting it out until their Dad came home, was the direction for the whole show. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by shoetingstar

[iMonrey]

Quote

It just killed me... the cheap pathetic way they had Dean F. Winchester die. 

Well . . . I understand what the show was trying to do. They were trying to show how the circumstances had changed, and trying to make some kind of ironic point about Dean dying in a rather unremarkable way. I get all of that. 

The problem is that while the circumstances may have changed, Dean and Sam have not. It's not as if they have forgotten the past 15 years and everything they have survived up to this point. This isn't "the one" that should have immediately made them go "oh, this is it." After everything they've been through? The immediate reaction should have been "Oh, I had worse." They should have been in denial, and then in shock. Instead they went straight to "Yup, Dean's a goner." I just don't buy they would react that way in that situation. It's contradictory to their own history.

And I still don't understand why Sam wasn't yelling for Jack to come help them because I was. That's all I kept saying, over and over again though that scene. "Call Jack!" I mean - unless there was a prior scene that demonstrated Jack would never save them no matter what, it makes no sense. He just saved them in the last episode and even said he'd "be around" if they wanted to hang out! Whatever existential change occurred with Jack was too vague to make me understand why they weren't calling out to him for help.

[Casseiopeia]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Just go watch the featurettes for S15 and pay attention to Badd. He did exactly what he wanted to do (to Dean), regardless of any changes effected by Covid.  There is no other excuse or explanation for killing off one of the two leads 20 minutes into the finale and then never having even one character say a good word about him (including Sam), never mind mourn him or lament his death (except for Sam).

And I'm sorry, the weird speech from Castiel in 15x19, which was, in my opinion, nothing but fan-service to a very narrow segment of the fandom and so OTT as to be laughable, does not make up for it.

Dabb made Dean's death all about Sam, which, whatever, but to have him let his brother die without a single word of comfort or any attempt to reciprocate the love and admiration Dean expressed. Screw that.

Dabb did  exactly what he promised the fans he was going to do. He wrote an episode that 30% of fans "liked".  I own S1-14 of SPN on DVD. I haven't opened 12-14 and I don't plan to buy S15.   

 

 

[ahrtee]

9 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

Here's the thing, making the think that kills Dean be a normal hunt - not my favorite but not bad in and of itself. But put some actual teeth on it, like care. Make what seemed like an easy situation turn out to be catastrophic. Show Sam trying to save him and showing real emotion. Give a real reason why Dean would just give in to death at this point.

I've been thinking about this, and I can see a way it *could have* worked (with better writers who actually gave a damn, of course).

First of all, yes, I hated the stupid, pointless hunt, which made no sense logically or in any other way, but I'm not going into that here.  Yes, I definitely would have liked some twist that made the fight more....interesting at least.  Have them outnumbered and not just by stunt vamps Moe, Larry and Curley.  Have Dean go down fighting.  At least they did save the kids.

But Dean has been saying for quite a while that he can't see a life without hunting, and he's tired.  This is the first time in his life he's had a choice of what he wants to do without feeling guilty or responsible for anyone else, and I would have liked him to *make* that choice, even if it wasn't what we might have wanted.

The way I would like to imagine it:  Sam calls frantically for Jack, who shows up in the nick of time.  He stops time (or at least, Dean's death) long enough to give Dean the choice.  Jack says he can heal Dean so he can stay here with Sam and they can keep fighting, or he can go to Heaven.  Mary and John are waiting dinner for him, and even Cas is there now, together with Bobby, OG Charlie, Jo and Ellen, etc.  

Dean gets to think about it, the "peace when you are done," (which is what Sam wanted for himself in season 9 and was furious when Dean refused to let him go.)  So...he tells Sam that he's ready.  There's nothing for him in this world now--all the demons are under control, the monsters are boring and there are plenty of hunters to pick up the slack.  It's the first time his death hasn't been in the middle of a world-ending disaster, and he knows others can take over.

Sam tries to talk him out of it, but can't (after the season 9 debacle), so he says he'll go too; but Dean shakes his head and says "you still have things to do.  You can still have the life you always wanted.  And I'll see you later."  Cue teary farewell scene, except with Dean peaceful and Sam sad but accepting. 

Sam can have his normal life, only happy now, instead of being miserable and missing Dean all the time.  He can actually have a wife with a name and face, and enjoy his son.  

And then at the end, he joins Dean at the Roadhouse with everyone they ever knew in a big party.  Or at least greenscreen them in.  (Depending on how long Sam takes to die, it's likely everyone they knew--except probably the younger Wayward sisters) would already be in heaven to greet him. )

 

[ahrtee]

To clarify a little further:  in my scenario, I don't see it as Dean is giving up, or "choosing" to die; it's that he's choosing *not* to accept supernatural inference just to stay alive.   It's recognizing that he's finally free from outside interference, no matter how well intentioned. 

He's also giving Sam the chance to choose to quit hunting and settle down; if Dean stayed, he'd keep hunting and most likely so would Sam.  And since death is nothing to fear any more, Dean doesn't have to worry about Sam being killed because he's not there to protect him.  So Sam is given the freedom to make his own choices and mistakes as well.

Basically, Dean is following Bobby's last *last* words:  "when it's your time, just go."  

Edited May 28, 2021 by ahrtee
More thoughts. Always.

[Pondlass1]

No blood in mouth, he could move arms and legs.  The spike hadn’t impacted lungs, heart or spine. It was survivable. Any other episode duct tape would’ve sufficed till they got back to bunker.

Why would Dean give up? Why? Why now?  He’s a warrior. Was it made clear? That’s my issue. Have to admit I wasn’t paying much attention at this point.  (Unlike our Dean I had given up.)

Despite show runner jealousy, at least he didn’t live on to  marry a fuzzy faced woman or wear a dollar store wig. 

[Pondlass1]

58 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

No blood in mouth, he could move arms and legs.  The spike hadn’t impacted lungs, heart or spine. It was survivable. Any other episode duct tape would’ve sufficed till they got back to bunker.

Why would Dean give up? Why? Why now?  He’s a warrior. Was it made clear? That’s my issue. Have to admit I wasn’t paying much attention at this point.  (Unlike our Dean I had given up.)

Despite show runner jealousy, at least he didn’t live on to  marry a fuzzy faced woman or wear a dollar store wig. 

But what irks me the most is that Jensen had to be talked into accepting the ending. He knew it was wrong for Dean. He knew. But he’s Jensen so he went along with it. And it just kills me.  

 

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Pondlass1

[MAK]

4 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

No blood in mouth, he could move arms and legs.  The spike hadn’t impacted lungs, heart or spine. It was survivable. Any other episode duct tape would’ve sufficed till they got back to bunker.

Even if it had not pierced critical organs, the action of removing the rebar could have resulted in him bleeding out. They were not near medical facilities. 

Unfortunately, earlier, it could have been Chuck making sure that a piece of duct tape was sufficient to keep them alive until they reached wherever to get additional treatment. Perhaps Dean realized this? 

They should have made all of it clear that it was not "just giving up", but unfortunately....

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

No blood in mouth, he could move arms and legs.  The spike hadn’t impacted lungs, heart or spine. It was survivable. Any other episode duct tape would’ve sufficed till they got back to bunker.

If it were survivable, why did he die?  He didn't kill himself. It only took him about 5 minutes to die.  They wouldn't make it back to the bunker in 5 minutes, even if removing the obstruction didn't hasten his death.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

If it were survivable, why did he die?  He didn't kill himself. It only took him about 5 minutes to die.  They wouldn't make it back to the bunker in 5 minutes, even if removing the obstruction didn't hasten his death.

Exactly. You don't need to bleed from the mouth to have catastrophic internal injuries. Dean didn't just give up, he knew what he was feeling, just like he knew in 9x23. 

[Pondlass1]

Well he died because that’s what the script said.  But visually he appeared practically fine.  Compare with the Metatron stabbing. Now that looked fatal.

Maybe it’s just me? But I wasn’t happy with it. It was a sterile and cheap death and not the exit from the world worthy of Dean....IMO of course.

[Aeryn13]

54 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Well he died because that’s what the script said.  But visually he appeared practically fine.  Compare with the Metatron stabbing. Now that looked fatal.

Maybe it’s just me? But I wasn’t happy with it. It was a sterile and cheap death and not the exit from the world worthy of Dean....IMO of course.

Well, with the easy way of being defeated on what appeared to be the very first hunt without Chuck interference, the humiliating manner and speech of putting himself down as uber-weak some more along with no acknowledgment of his worth or anything, zero legacy to leave behind and just waiting aimlessly around bland heaven, pretty much everything was designed to be the blandest, lamest way the character could go out.

Contrast that with Sam doing fine without Chuck's protection, getting to have a family and legacy and being heralded as the strong one, it was as cookie-cutter clear as it could have been.

I always laugh when I read "that is exactly what Dean wanted and how he wanted to go out". Ha. By the time of that Finale even he didn't want to go out like yesterday's trash. And his speech in Trial and Error - which he got derided for back then - is not a justification to now say it was oh-so-joyful what happened and his best ending ever. If it happened to a character they cared about, that tune would change very quickly.

[gonzosgirrl]

I was never angry that Dean died, it was everything else around it. Even the idea that it was a routine hunt, like the Rawhead in S1 that should've killed him (again, after the kids were already saved) wasn't the worst - in other hands, it could've been well done. But for Dean to die still diminishing himself while singing Sam's praise? For there not to be one single word of praise for him, from Sam or anyone else? No one to mourn him at all?  For all we see of him in Heaven is driving endlessly until he can be with Sam again? And for all this to take place mere weeks (at best) after finally gaining their freedom? No. No way. I'll never accept this finale, nor forgive Badd & Co for presenting it. 

[shoetingstar]

13 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I was never angry that Dean died, it was everything else around it. Even the idea that it was a routine hunt, like the Rawhead in S1 that should've killed him (again, after the kids were already saved) wasn't the worst - in other hands, it could've been well done. But for Dean to die still diminishing himself while singing Sam's praise? For there not to be one single word of praise for him, from Sam or anyone else? No one to mourn him at all?  For all we see of him in Heaven is driving endlessly until he can be with Sam again? And for all this to take place mere weeks (at best) after finally gaining their freedom? No. No way. I'll never accept this finale, nor forgive Badd & Co for presenting it. 

👆🏾 This!

That's where i'm at. There are assumptions that Dean fans are only upset because of Dean's death or even that it was a routine hunt. It's the entire context of what you listed that makes it impossible to reconcile this careless finale.

[Casseiopeia]

Pretty much everything Jensen said publically about the ending...

 

[Myrelle]

5 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Pretty much everything Jensen said publically about the ending...

 

I think this was made to convince some that Jensen didn't hate the last episode of the series-which I'm sure he didn't by the time it aired and even by the time they filmed it, tbh.

But the greatest constant in all of this effort , IMO, was that Jensen did indeed  become convinced that he was "too close" to his  character and the show, on the whole, for his initial reservations to have been afforded enough merit or consideration; and especially when everyone else was "on board" with things.

And because of that, Dabb's prediction that 30% of the fandom might like it, came true-which means that 70% of the fandom didn't like it, so I'm not sure what to think of that, but it certainly isn't "Way to go, showrunners, writers, and producers!"

In fact, it feels more like perhaps they should have listened a little bit more to the guy who was apparently "too close" to everything and maybe those numbers could easily have been reversed, but hey, when 95% of those BTS are hell-bent on having things done their way, there isn't a whole lot that the 5%er can do, except exactly what Jensen did(and likely had become accustomed to doing after 15 years of the same) which was to give his all, in every way, to the project he was working on, as an actor and from an actor's POV.

I do so hope that he learned some valuable lessons from it all as he leaves this project and goes on to others and that he especially remembers those valuable lessons that he learned as he takes on roles other than strictly and only an actor's, BTS-because IMO, he was not too close to his character. 

No, on the contrary and to me, others BTS, were not close enough to his character to have dismissed his reservations so quickly and so out of hand.

And that's what I got more than anything else from the above production, too.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

I will never, ever believe that Jensen 'loves'the way it ended. If even one person (in power) supported him in his reservations,  maybe he would be more willing voice disappointment. But with Jared singing its praises from the jump (no surprise), there's no way he can without seeming... whatever.  As it is, I doubt we'll ever hear him say differently now. I still believe his original feelings remain, he's just too much of a team player to trash it now.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I will never, ever believe that Jensen 'loves'the way it ended. If even one person (in power) supported him in his reservations,  maybe he would be more willing voice disappointment. But with Jared singing its praises from the jump (no surprise), there's no way he can without seeming... whatever.  As it is, I doubt we'll ever hear him say differently now. I still believe his original feelings remain, he's just too much of a team player to trash it now.

IMO, after giving 15 years of his life to the show, he simply made a conscious effort and decision to go with it because what else could he do other than continue to unsuccessfully rail against it and take on the role of the one and only "malcontent"-which likely would have also affected his performance; so for that reason, more than any, I think he opted to try and embrace it so as to do his job as an actor to the best of his ability.

I always remember him once saying that an actor's first priority when taking on any role is to sell the writing.

Perhaps he felt that he couldn't do that if he couldn't accept the ending. It would make total sense to someone such as he, IMO.

And I think that's why he was ok with ending the show when they did, too-because he had gotten to a place and time where he was having too much trouble trying to sell the writing that he was being given.

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Myrelle

[MAK]

15 hours ago, Myrelle said:

No, on the contrary and to me, others BTS, were not close enough to his character to have dismissed his reservations so quickly and so out of hand.

This was exactly the problem.

IMO, I don't think JA had a problem of Dean dying first, just the how and why. With the writers saying they first decided on Dean's death, then wrote everything else to lead up to it? How? Nothing in the entire season "led up" to Dean's death. The only hint I saw was when Mrs. Butters gave them "last holidays" together, but wouldn't celebrate Dean's birthday. 

Was the working consensus that since all apocalyptic threats are gone, Dean, the blunt instrument is no longer needed so dies, and Sam the hero can go live happily ever after?

Such lazy writing. Someone even commented that this last episode only  had 1700 words. 

[PAForrest]

13 minutes ago, MAK said:

IMO, I don't think JA had a problem of Dean dying first, just the how and why.

Actually Dean dying was what Jensen had a problem with. Even Jared finally admitted that recently in some interview - how Jensen "bristled" when he learned of Dean's fate. At the time when they were told how it would end, I don't think they knew the details so much, just the broad strokes. Of course, the details made it worse, but that's a whole other story.

Jensen had to come to terms with it, obviously - and I think it helped that he had another gig to go to after the show ended, plus whatever he and D are doing with their production company, as well as the music he was working on. He's busy. And Jensen has always been the consummate professional and team player, regardless of whether he was happy with this story or that one. However, when he was asked at the most recent virtual con about the finale, in both his M&G and the open panel he talked about his belief that Jack would bring them back. So it's pretty clear in Jensen's mind that wasn't Dean's ultimate end - not the one Jensen envisions for Dean.

As for the details, the fact that Dean isn't coughing up blood actually matters WRT whether or not he could have been saved. Two paramedics on twitter were talking about how Dean could have been saved. If Dean was truly that far gone, yes, he should have been coughing up a lung. But the reason he didn't is simple and two-fold - 1) whoever, probably Pedowitz (because Dabb wouldn't care), wanted a "pretty" death. Something that would look clean and good on screen, not messy and ugly as death often is. And 2) if Dean was coughing up that lung, he wouldn't have been able to spend his dying moments blowing smoke up Sam's skirt, which was what was most important to Dabb.

Ultimately the whole Dean giving up and dying on a vamp milk run made zero sense, and I hate it. I'm with Jensen, that was not Dean's end. I don't buy it.

[S Cook Productions]

So I don't know whether to post this here or Public appearances...but probably here since it's about the finale. I wanted to post this a couple of weeks ago but am just now getting the time. I went to the first in-person Creation con in over a year and a half....the Star Trek con in Vegas from Aug. 10-16. There were a lot of celeb guest cancellations, and Creation replaced a couple with Jim Beaver and Mark Shephard literally days before the con. Their panel kind of turned into a SPN panel lol (even though they were both in a Star Trek ep). Anyhoo, Jim Beaver said the original script and plan for the finale would have "absolutely knocked our socks off," before covid changed it all. He said he was happy with what they ended up with because it was the best they could do under the circumstances...but that he was well aware and understood that a great many people DID NOT like it.....as for Mark Shepherd, he never even saw the finale, not surprisingly lol. Although he is still bitter about his end and the powers that be at SPN...he wanted it known that the actors and crew were indeed a family and he will never experience quite like that again and he's grateful. Anyhoo, I was interested since I saw them in person and heard them speak with my own ears- and thought you all would be too. (the Orlando con where I live for SPN which was supposed to be next week and their first con back got canceled a couple of weeks ago...postponed to 2022).

[tessathereaper]

5 hours ago, S Cook Productions said:

So I don't know whether to post this here or Public appearances...but probably here since it's about the finale. I wanted to post this a couple of weeks ago but am just now getting the time. I went to the first in-person Creation con in over a year and a half....the Star Trek con in Vegas from Aug. 10-16. There were a lot of celeb guest cancellations, and Creation replaced a couple with Jim Beaver and Mark Shephard literally days before the con. Their panel kind of turned into a SPN panel lol (even though they were both in a Star Trek ep). Anyhoo, Jim Beaver said the original script and plan for the finale would have "absolutely knocked our socks off," before covid changed it all. He said he was happy with what they ended up with because it was the best they could do under the circumstances...but that he was well aware and understood that a great many people DID NOT like it.....as for Mark Shepherd, he never even saw the finale, not surprisingly lol. Although he is still bitter about his end and the powers that be at SPN...he wanted it known that the actors and crew were indeed a family and he will never experience quite like that again and he's grateful. Anyhoo, I was interested since I saw them in person and heard them speak with my own ears- and thought you all would be too. (the Orlando con where I live for SPN which was supposed to be next week and their first con back got canceled a couple of weeks ago...postponed to 2022).

Thanks, that's really interesting.  I'm glad the issues with TPTB of SPN didn't sour Mark on the whole experience.  He was one of the better parts of the show and deserved better from the production and writers.

[PAForrest]

15 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Thanks, that's really interesting.  I'm glad the issues with TPTB of SPN didn't sour Mark on the whole experience.  He was one of the better parts of the show and deserved better from the production and writers.

Dabb & Co. really f'd over Mark, as blatantly and boldly as they could do, and no one would fault him if he harbored nothing but ill will from his entire time on the show. So yeah, I'm glad he could look past the last two or three years of terrible writing/showrunning to still appreciate his time with the cast and crew (thanks for that insight, S Cook). Besides, where it concerns crap write-offs, he's in stellar company with Jensen Ackles.

I was so glad Creation canceled/was forced to cancel Orlando, because I live here too, and Florida is a shitshow right now. But honestly, my guess is the real reason they canceled is because Jensen isn't done filming in Toronto, and they really didn't want to go ahead without him.

I'm sure everyone was looking forward to the "party" aspect of the heaven scenes with Kansas playing a gig and a bunch of guest stars from the past showing up. I'm thinking that's what Beaver was referring to, and sure, that would have been cool. But this Dean fan would have still hated Dean's "take it or leave it" less than illustrious ending. So a concert wasn't going to be the salve that made it all better.

Edited August 31, 2021 by PAForrest

[FlickChick]

10 hours ago, PAForrest said:

I'm sure everyone was looking forward to the "party" aspect of the heaven scenes with Kansas playing a gig and a bunch of guest stars from the past showing up. I'm thinking that's what Beaver was referring to, and sure, that would have been cool. But this Dean fan would have still hated Dean's "take it or leave it" less than illustrious ending. So a concert wasn't going to be the salve that made it all better.

This x1000! Regarding Mark Sheppard, I was pleasantly surprised to see him in the retrospective episode, so perhaps some fences were partially mended? Even so, he still took the high road - maybe because of how he felt about the crew and actors - minus the showrunner/writers.

[AuntTora]

Finally recovered my Primetimer password after a loooong time in order to finally put this down. Obviously have had a lot of time to think about this, and the last season has cycled through TNT at least once since it aired originally. (WFH for 18 months now, live alone, and have the TV on low volume most of the time to keep from going insane.) I haven't watched the finale again, and doubt I ever will, but I have paid sort of half-attention to some of the final season episodes. I find that the "Chuck has been running the show all along for his own entertainment" storyline actually holds up decently well, knowing what we know now, going back many seasons.

I'm sure TPTB did the ending they did because they thought it's more memorable than a "happy" ending, or even a "the road goes on" ending. But -- it's memorable because it was terrible (and lazy and incompetent), and it sours the experience of the show both retroactively and prospectively. I thought at the time, and still think, that Sam and Dean, and we the fans, should have been given a happy ending, given the 15 years we've put into it. And because of 2020 generally, for glavin out loud. I'll never stop thinking that. I was extremely surprised that isn't what happened.

But. If Dean had to die, and Sam had to carry on, it would have cost NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to have allowed Dean some period of time after defeating Chuck to enjoy a life. It would have been so easy to put up a "five years later" card. The way it was done wasn't in any way meaningful, it was just mean. It wasn't bittersweet, it was just shitty.

When Covid hit and it looked for a minute like we might never get a final ep, I thought that was the worst thing that could happen. But it turns out that would have been better. Because then we would have been able to create a fitting end in our imaginations. Or at least, not have to have the canon ending.

[MAK]

18 hours ago, AuntTora said:

But. If Dean had to die, and Sam had to carry on, it would have cost NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to have allowed Dean some period of time after defeating Chuck to enjoy a life. It would have been so easy to put up a "five years later" card. The way it was done wasn't in any way meaningful, it was just mean. It wasn't bittersweet, it was just shitty.

I was ok with one of them dying and the other carrying on, although some years having passed before the death would have been ideal.

But if I, a random fan, can think of low cost, COVID friendly ways to have made the finale richer, than the only excuse the showrunners/writers have is laziness and/or incompetence. 

[ahrtee]

42 minutes ago, MAK said:

I was ok with one of them dying and the other carrying on, although some years having passed before the death would have been ideal.

But if I, a random fan, can think of low cost, COVID friendly ways to have made the finale richer, than the only excuse the showrunners/writers have is laziness and/or incompetence. 

They had how many months?  to come up with a better way around things, or ways to improve the ending.  That they didn't just means they didn't want to.  And to me, that's worse than laziness or incompetence.  

[Pondlass1]

Dean’s had some heart wrenching and spectacular deaths. This was neither. 

I belong to the … We got work to do crowd.  
Its night and ominous with lashings of rain and there’s Baby speeding along a dark winding road, classic rock pounding.   Fade to black.

Corny, but never cheesy. 😉

Edited September 3, 2021 by Pondlass1

[FlickChick]

Ultimately, they killed both of the boys - Dean after a short time and Sam after what appeared to be a long and lousy life. So, if their goal was to make sure that by the end, both Sam and Dean were most certainly dead, then they should have had them go out in some dramatic, overwhelming Butch & Sundance scene - together. How many times did we hear both of them say, "so we go out fighting - Butch & Sundance". That Badd wouldn't give them that - I have no words. 👿

[AuntTora]

8 hours ago, FlickChick said:

That Badd wouldn't give them that - I have no words. 👿

Yes. He (or they) made it about HIM, about being “clever” and … provocative, or transgressive, or something, and not about Sam and Dean. Supernatural was a really unique thing, with a really incredible relationship with its audience and fans. The ending should have honored that. I’m bummed that the people in charge cared so little about that. 
I suppose they’d say, if you’re still worked up about it a year later, we did our job. That’s just another way they completely miss the point.