Murder On Middle Beach

[bilgistic]

I wondered about the traveling, but I assume Ali married someone that isn't from the U.S. and they traveled to her spouse's home. It was established that she lives in Argentina. When Madison first interviewed her, the chyron with her name was a different last name from Hamburg (Madison's and Barbara's last name)...I think.

Edited December 2, 2020 by bilgistic

[chick binewski]

10 hours ago, fountain said:

I am enjoying this doc. It is a different style than many docs but some of the differences are the appeal. Madison does a good job of questioning people who are talking shit about his immediate family. He seems to be getting things from them that you would think they would want to hide. He even hugs these relatives who are doing things like saying they were going to hire a hit man to kill you. He seems to remain objective through all this, showing both the good and bad of his parents, sister and himself.

This family is a piece of work. There are so many skeletons.

I go back and forth from being intrigued by Madison's general attitude to thinking he's made this series to crack his family open like a boiled peanut. I dont mean the latter in a completely negative way - many families have secrets and violent crime tends to thicken the shroud that cloaks them.

My mantra of "the husband did it" just isn't completely taking bc there's SO much stuff here. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

He seems to remain objective through all this, showing both the good and bad of his parents, sister and himself.

It really is amazing how measured, normal and calm Madison manages to be given how messed up his family is. No wonder he turned to drugs. Of course, he's editing this thing, so who knows what's he's like off camera. I'm impressed with what I see though.

[Maysie]

18 hours ago, fountain said:

This family is a piece of work. There are so many skeletons.

When we were watching, we actually remarked on how normal their mother seems but how fucked up all the kids (Conway, Barb, etc) are. I know their dad was an alcoholic, but he had been sober for like 30 or 40 years when Barbara was murdered. From all accounts, so far, it looks like they had a pretty good life - unless we find out in the next episode that Mom and Dad were also hella messed up, which given how this is unfolding may be a possibility!

16 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The fights that Conway described between Ali and Barb sounded like typical teenage girl stuff crossed with Ali being a brat. I can't imagine calling my mom and then my aunt in the middle of the day to tell them that I wanted to leave school for no reason. Ali may have been a bratty, demanding teenager but that doesn't mean she murdered her mom. I think that Conway absolutely believes everything she says, but she seems like the kind of person who is a shit stirrer who creates drama wherever she goes. And somehow Conway thought it was okay to run away from home, prostitute herself, do drugs, and then move in with her sister (after hiring a hitman to murder said sister along with her niece and nephew) but she draws the line at teenage Ali telling her mom to fuck off.

Absolutely! I got along with my mom, but man, when we argued we could do it right! And my sister and mother - holy mother of god, the throw downs! It was hormones, teenage angst, personality conflicts and we all grew out of it and moved on into peaceful adulthood. And I think it's an excellent point that somehow believing that hiring a hit man to kill not only your sister, but her husband and young children is not worse than the teenage girl telling mom to fuck off is a bit . . . odd. When Conway was telling the story about cashing in her 401(k), meeting the hit man at the nice hotel and waking up to find out she's been rolled, well, we already knew the end of that story, didn't we? On one hand I feel sorry for Conway because she seems like a fucked up, lost soul. But on the other hand, she's a grown-ass woman and needs to get her shit together. Throwing her niece under the bus isn't a good look on her.

So far, I'm thinking the culprit is Barbara's ex or the murder has something to do with the tables.

Finally, I am really impressed with how well Madison is documenting all of this. He's still pretty young (early 20s when he started this, right?) and he's not shying away from the tough questions and learning some unsavory things about his family, including his mom and dad. I find that he's been asking the questions I've had - often he asks them before I know I had them. The documentary itself is interesting, obviously helped along by the fact that his family provides a wealth of material. It must have been hard a difficult project for him.

[FozzyBear]

I don’t think the sister (Ali?) did it. It didn’t even seem like Conway had a reason to suspect her other than Conway didn’t like Ali. I didn’t really trust Conway’s version of events anyway. If Ali was pushing her mom to ask Conway to move out that gives Conway a pretty good reason to paint Ali as a drugged up psychopath. Partying with friends and having a few boyfriends doesn’t really stand up to facing a huge child support award or fucking admitting  to trying to hire a hit man before!

im on the fence if Conway believes her own bullshit or not. I think it’s possible. It sounds like she lived pretty rough even by addiction standards, it’s possible she has some sort of cognitive difficulty as a result. Maybe she has trouble telling facts from fantasy. Or maybe she knows who did it and is placing blame on Ali out of spite. I mean this is the woman who tried to have an entire family killed out of spite. Maybe her and Ali just never got along and Conway would be fine seeing her go to jail innocent or not. BECAUSE SHE ALREADY ADMITTED TO TRYING TO MURDER THE ENTIRE FAMILY OUT OF SPITE! 

Edited December 3, 2020 by FozzyBear

[mamadrama]

Listening to Conway talk about wanting to hire a hitman to take out two adults and two kids was strange. IMO she didn't come across as embarassed, apologetic, or any of the things one might expect. I realize she was in the throes of addiction, and maybe some other issues, at the time but even watching her talk about it now with all the time that's passed she seemed a little off. 

[bilgistic]

22 hours ago, bilgistic said:

I wondered about the traveling, but I assume Ali married someone that isn't from the U.S. and they traveled to her spouse's home. It was established that she lives in Argentina. When Madison first interviewed her, the chyron with her name was a different last name from Hamburg (Madison's and Barbara's last name)...I think.

Quoting myself to say I can't find anything about Ali being married, but I was interested to find several people on Reddit saying that Conway is drunk throughout her interview with Madison. I thought there was something weird about her affect and didn't know what it was. She's kind of checked out and glazed over but telling these wild stories about prostituting and hiring a hit man like she's telling Madison what came in the mail that day. AND she had cancer and a brain tumor?!

Several years ago, I had a friend who was a "high-functioning" alcoholic (and pill addict, I later found out), but I had no idea for the longest time. I wasn't exposed to anything like that when I was growing up. I didn't drink until I was of age and got bored of it quickly, so I guess I'm kind of naive about addiction. I don't see it because I don't know any of the signs.

It seems that sadly, addiction is practically a rite of passage in the Beach family. We've got mental illness and not taking responsibility for it on lock in my family.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, FozzyBear said:

I don’t think the sister (Ali?) did it. It didn’t even seem like Conway had a reason to suspect her other than Conway didn’t like Ali. I didn’t really trust Conway’s version of events anyway. If Ali was pushing her mom to ask Conway to move out that gives Conway a pretty good reason to paint Ali as a drugged up psychopath. Partying with friends and having a few boyfriends doesn’t really stand up to facing a huge child support award or fucking admitting  to trying to hire a hit man before!

im on the fence if Conway believes her own bullshit or not. I think it’s possible. It sounds like she lived pretty rough even by addiction standards, it’s possible she has some sort of cognitive difficulty as a result. Maybe she has trouble telling facts from fantasy. Or maybe she knows who did it and is placing blame on Ali out of spite. I mean this is the woman who tried to have an entire family killed out of spite. Maybe her and Ali just never got along and Conway would be fine seeing her go to jail innocent or not. BECAUSE SHE ALREADY ADMITTED TO TRYING TO MURDER THE ENTIRE FAMILY OUT OF SPITE! 

Reading this I wonder if Conway could be jealous of Alli because she was Barbara's actual daughter and Conway wanted Barbara to take care of her instead. So in her head she cast herself as the hero of the family, protecting her sister against this terrible, monstrous teenager who has herself dealt with the worst father ever.

[ccphilly]

Conway reminds be of my Aunt-a functional alcoholic during the day, but can get blackout drunk and forget the terror she inflicts at night.  

[mamadrama]

Now I'm wondering if Conway's story about the hitman was even true. It sounds crazy to make something like that up, but she DOES come across as a little nuts so...

[pigs-in-space]

11 hours ago, bilgistic said:

Quoting myself to say I can't find anything about Ali being married, but I was interested to find several people on Reddit saying that Conway is drunk throughout her interview with Madison. I thought there was something weird about her affect and didn't know what it was. She's kind of checked out and glazed over but telling these wild stories about prostituting and hiring a hit man like she's telling Madison what came in the mail that day. AND she had cancer and a brain tumor?!

Thanks for mentioning Reddit, now I've gone down that rabbit hole! A lot of them seem convinced that Ali was involved, which seemed weird to me at first, but they mainly seem to think so based on the timeline. We know Barbara was supposed to be in court that morning, but when she was killed she was in her pajamas. People think that maybe Ali killed her on the way out as Conway suggested.

I wish they'd clarify the timeline, as it's not clear at all what time Barbara and Ali left the house. If it was 7:30 am or something I could understand Barbara still being in her pajamas. But move that to even 8:30 am and you start to wonder why she'd still be in her PJs when she was due in court so soon.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Y'all, the father of Barb et al is named SANDY BEACH.

On 12/1/2020 at 9:37 PM, bilgistic said:

I wondered about the traveling, but I assume Ali married someone that isn't from the U.S. and they traveled to her spouse's home. It was established that she lives in Argentina. When Madison first interviewed her, the chyron with her name was a different last name from Hamburg (Madison's and Barbara's last name)...I think.

Ali said that she left town as soon as she finished high school (she also mentioned that she hadn't been back to their hometown since she was 18) and traveled to a bunch of different countries, which is why I wondered where she got the money to do that. She said she backpacked to Chile, Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, and then finally Argentina. All I know is that my 18 year old self couldn't have afforded a plane ticket to South America. Hell, even if someone had given me a plane ticket to Chile, I wouldn't have had enough money to buy myself a meal once I arrived.

I'm still shaking my head over the fact that Madison's father owed $153K in alimony and $324K in child support. What an ass.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Reading this I wonder if Conway could be jealous of Alli because she was Barbara's actual daughter and Conway wanted Barbara to take care of her instead. So in her head she cast herself as the hero of the family, protecting her sister against this terrible, monstrous teenager who has herself dealt with the worst father ever.

I think Conway already had a lot of resentment towards Barb. She mentioned that she took care of her baby sister, but it's obvious that she felt very overlooked within her family (like when she mentioned how well her siblings did in school and how everyone liked to make fun of her) and it seems Barb was the only one who gave Conway positive attention. And as adults, Barb the little sister was taking care of Conway the big sister, which can be a strange dynamic. The feeling I get is that Conway felt both like she deserved to be taken care of as well as resentful that her little sister was in a position to take care of her (I remember in the first episode, Conway kept talking about how Barb lived a privileged life with all the traveling and other perks and how Madison had a very privileged childhood which made her sound a bit jealous).

And on top of that, Conway was extremely resentful that Barb and her family took in Conway's son while she was doing drugs and living with a pimp in Florida. From a logical point of view, Barb did the kind compassionate thing by having her nephew live with them while his mother was AWOL in another state. I mean, what was she supposed to do? Let him fend for himself? Instead of being grateful that her kid wasn't living on the street, Conway felt like Barb had usurped her place as Tyler's mother figure, and she was so angry about it that she hired a hit man to kill Barb, her husband, and their two children. That seems like a bit of an overreaction.

I don't think that Conway was actually offended by Ali telling Barb to fuck off. I think what really bothered her was that Ali told Barb that either Conway had to leave their house or Ali would. I was rolling my eyes when Conway said that Ali was running around with boys and drinking/doing drugs. Really, Conway? This from the woman who abandoned her son to do drugs and live with a pimp in Florida? I'm sure there are some people who would be clutching their pearls at the idea of a teenage girl partying or being around boys, but Conway should not be one of them after all the shit she did.

On 12/1/2020 at 9:37 PM, bilgistic said:

I wondered about the traveling, but I assume Ali married someone that isn't from the U.S. and they traveled to her spouse's home. It was established that she lives in Argentina. When Madison first interviewed her, the chyron with her name was a different last name from Hamburg (Madison's and Barbara's last name)...I think.

In this episode, the chyron said Hamburg (as did the family tree shown in the previous episode). Was she interviewed in the first or second episode? I can't remember (partly because the interviews/footage aren't in chronological order).

[sistermagpie]

49 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think Conway already had a lot of resentment towards Barb. She mentioned that she took care of her baby sister, but it's obvious that she felt very overlooked within her family (like when she mentioned how well her siblings did in school and how everyone liked to make fun of her) and it seems Barb was the only one who gave Conway positive attention. And as adults, Barb the little sister was taking care of Conway the big sister, which can be a strange dynamic. The feeling I get is that Conway felt both like she deserved to be taken care of as well as resentful that her little sister was in a position to take care of her (I remember in the first episode, Conway kept talking about how Barb lived a privileged life with all the traveling and other perks and how Madison had a very privileged childhood which made her sound a bit jealous).

And on top of that, Conway was extremely resentful that Barb and her family took in Conway's son while she was doing drugs and living with a pimp in Florida. From a logical point of view, Barb did the kind compassionate thing by having her nephew live with them while his mother was AWOL in another state. I mean, what was she supposed to do? Let him fend for himself? Instead of being grateful that her kid wasn't living on the street, Conway felt like Barb had usurped her place as Tyler's mother figure, and she was so angry about it that she hired a hit man to kill Barb, her husband, and their two children. That seems like a bit of an overreaction.

I don't think that Conway was actually offended by Ali telling Barb to fuck off. I think what really bothered her was that Ali told Barb that either Conway had to leave their house or Ali would. I was rolling my eyes when Conway said that Ali was running around with boys and drinking/doing drugs. Really, Conway? This from the woman who abandoned her son to do drugs and live with a pimp in Florida? I'm sure there are some people who would be clutching their pearls at the idea of a teenage girl partying or being around boys, but Conway should not be one of them after all the shit she did.

 

Yes, good point--that is pretty much how I see it. She's casting herself as being horrified by the way Ali treated Barb, but really she's got a lifetime of resentment where she sees 1) Barb being privileged when she had it so hard 2) Thinks she should be Barb's priority and 3) Resents the hell out of Barb for usurping her place with her child and now having some authority over her. 

She seems to always embrace these extremes, so easily able to both demand attention from others and want to be taken care of while also resenting people for acting like she's not on their level. Now that Barbara's dead it's easy to imagine herself as the one who really protected her all along and was her greatest ally. Sure, she wanted to hire a hitman that time to kill Barbara and her whole family, but Barbara was fine with that. She understood that Conway wanted to do that because she was a "mama bear" protecting her kid. 

[bilgistic]

Ali was interviewed in the third episode. I must've made up the non-Hamburg last name.

I don't know where she got the money because her father, Jeffrey (I finally learned his name, thanks to Reddit), had cleaned out her and Madison's trust funds/educational funds. So not only did he owe years of child support, he also owed hundreds of thousands in money he stole from his kids. What a prize.

Edited December 4, 2020 by bilgistic

[Pop Tart]

9 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

I wish they'd clarify the timeline, as it's not clear at all what time Barbara and Ali left the house. If it was 7:30 am or something I could understand Barbara still being in her pajamas. But move that to even 8:30 am and you start to wonder why she'd still be in her PJs when she was due in court so soon.

I think the pajamas were what makes me see Ali as a possible. When Ali was telling her version to Madison she gave almost too much detail. She was running late so her mom had to take her, then on the way to school they stop at a coffee shop, thenAli’s at school and starts texting her mom ‘cause she wants to go home. And when her mom doesn’t answer, she contacts Conway to get her.

Few things jump out at me: mom is in pajamas and Ali is already late but they stop for coffee? Ali gets to school but suddenly isn’t well enough to be there? I get that she was probably a not great student, so trying for an out is reasonable, but she persists through to Conway? Then there’s the “crime scene” comment, which did seem premature given what they knew at that point. And the pallet and cushions as cover ups but not picking up the purse and cup? Feels like immature panic.

I’d really like to know if the coffee cup found was a mug like you’d have at home or a cup like you’d get at a coffee shop. Can’t remember if they’ve said.

Of course all this said I could make a similar case for the husband or for Conway or Jill or some other table person. Or even Madison I suppose. I think I remember feeling in the first episode that the police were at least not 100% discounting Madison as suspect. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I didn't see Ali as giving too much information. If what she said is what happened, she was just relaying that information. Although I personally found it ridiculous that she was running late for school but they stopped for coffee, this is the same bratty teenager who called her mom to tell her she wanted to leave school because she just didn't feel like being there so I found it believable. Conway said that Ali always got her way and Barb catered to her, so again stopping for coffee when she was already late for school and then deciding she wanted to leave an hour or two later sounds in line with what has been said about Ali.

I'm guessing that since they lived in a small town, someone at the coffee shop remembered them coming in the morning of the murder. If I were the police, I would have questioned the employees to verify that part of Ali's story in order to set up a timeline of where Barb went before she was murdered.

[pigs-in-space]

I really wish they'd just clarify some basic timeline stuff. I guess if it's all with the police and they're not sharing...but still, I feel like they have info they're just withholding to up the suspense. I also really, really wanted Madison to ask his sister if their mother ever abused her like their father claimed. He said their mother pushed her down the stairs! And who is this mystery half-brother that we have only heard about once in passing? Surely he should at least be mentioned at some point in the family history.

I also didn't catch the first time that the Beach family was from Alexandria VA. No wonder Conway sounds soooo much like my two aunts who are Conway's age and also grew up in that area and also smoked a lot. The accent, the inflections, everything screams DC suburbs.

I've got to admit something - I don't understand how exactly the gifting table was supposed to get anyone money. You come in, you bring $5k. Exactly who does that $5k go to? The person directly above you, or the "dessert" person? If it's the dessert person, do you just go to a bunch of dinner parties until you make your way up to the dessert level, and only bring $5k to the first? And of course it all depends on the people who are recruited actually being able to find people who can pay $5k so even one person not being able to find the requisite two people would screw the whole thing up.

Yeah, I can see how this is a pyramid scheme now that I've talked it out lol. Sure it's a lot of money but it also sounds like way too much effort for me. I'll take my boring old job over having to constantly scramble to find new marks to recruit.

 

[heatherchandler]

23 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

Thanks for mentioning Reddit, now I've gone down that rabbit hole! A lot of them seem convinced that Ali was involved, which seemed weird to me at first, but they mainly seem to think so based on the timeline. We know Barbara was supposed to be in court that morning, but when she was killed she was in her pajamas. People think that maybe Ali killed her on the way out as Conway suggested.

I wish they'd clarify the timeline, as it's not clear at all what time Barbara and Ali left the house. If it was 7:30 am or something I could understand Barbara still being in her pajamas. But move that to even 8:30 am and you start to wonder why she'd still be in her PJs when she was due in court so soon.

Do you have a link for Reddit?  I don't know how to Reddit... but I am interested in reading more about that.

 

6 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

I really wish they'd just clarify some basic timeline stuff. I guess if it's all with the police and they're not sharing...but still, I feel like they have info they're just withholding to up the suspense. I also really, really wanted Madison to ask his sister if their mother ever abused her like their father claimed. He said their mother pushed her down the stairs! And who is this mystery half-brother that we have only heard about once in passing? Surely he should at least be mentioned at some point in the family history.

 

I've got to admit something - I don't understand how exactly the gifting table was supposed to get anyone money. You come in, you bring $5k. Exactly who does that $5k go to? The person directly above you, or the "dessert" person? If it's the dessert person, do you just go to a bunch of dinner parties until you make your way up to the dessert level, and only bring $5k to the first? And of course it all depends on the people who are recruited actually being able to find people who can pay $5k so even one person not being able to find the requisite two people would screw the whole thing up.

Yeah, I can see how this is a pyramid scheme now that I've talked it out lol. Sure it's a lot of money but it also sounds like way too much effort for me. I'll take my boring old job over having to constantly scramble to find new marks to recruit.

 

I agree, I would like to know some hard, undisputed facts.  Like, witnesses saw them at the coffee shop at xx time, and then Ali was at school from xx to xx.  He should have clarified all of that from the beginning, like, "this is what we KNOW."

I think a pyramid scheme like this would give say $2,000 to the person who brought you, then maybe $3,000 to the person above them.  So, the person who brought you (and 4 others) gets $10,000 and the person above gets $75,000 ($3,000 x 5 x 5).  I can see why this is illegal, as the recipients don't pay taxes on these "gifts."  BUT these people are going into this with their eyes open.  They know how it works.  Bringing in people from AA is crappy, but I assume they are all adults and they know how the process works.

The people in Madoff's scheme didn't know that they were part of a pyramid.  They thought they were straight up investing.  So, the fact that Madoff took their money to pay others, and himself - that is FULLY illegal on it's face.  He was robbing people.  This is more of a chain letter, but with money.  And if they had paid taxes on the income, I don't know if this is technically illegal - as long as there was no intimidation, or strong-arming.  It is not illegal to gift someone money.

 

 

 

 

[mamadrama]

35 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

Do you have a link for Reddit?  I don't know how to Reddit... but I am interested in reading more about that.

 

I agree, I would like to know some hard, undisputed facts.  Like, witnesses saw them at the coffee shop at xx time, and then Ali was at school from xx to xx.  He should have clarified all of that from the beginning, like, "this is what we KNOW."

I think a pyramid scheme like this would give say $2,000 to the person who brought you, then maybe $3,000 to the person above them.  So, the person who brought you (and 4 others) gets $10,000 and the person above gets $75,000 ($3,000 x 5 x 5).  I can see why this is illegal, as the recipients don't pay taxes on these "gifts."  BUT these people are going into this with their eyes open.  They know how it works.  Bringing in people from AA is crappy, but I assume they are all adults and they know how the process works.

The people in Madoff's scheme didn't know that they were part of a pyramid.  They thought they were straight up investing.  So, the fact that Madoff took their money to pay others, and himself - that is FULLY illegal on it's face.  He was robbing people.  This is more of a chain letter, but with money.  And if they had paid taxes on the income, I don't know if this is technically illegal - as long as there was no intimidation, or strong-arming.  It is not illegal to gift someone money.

 

 

 

 

The only person at the table getting the money is the person at the top ("dessert"). The appetizers bring the money, the desserts get to keep it, and the entrees are basically just there, hanging out, until the person at the top leaves, allowing everyone else to level up. 

[bilgistic]

3 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

Do you have a link for Reddit?  I don't know how to Reddit... but I am interested in reading more about that.

Look up "Reddit Murder on Middle Beach" in your chosen search engine and you'll find several discussion threads.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

Do you have a link for Reddit?  I don't know how to Reddit... but I am interested in reading more about that.

 

I agree, I would like to know some hard, undisputed facts.  Like, witnesses saw them at the coffee shop at xx time, and then Ali was at school from xx to xx.  He should have clarified all of that from the beginning, like, "this is what we KNOW."

 

Yeah, that's frustrating. Especially because Conway is straight-up denying it. She claims she thinks Ally did it when Barb was leaving the house with her and not returning, right? So if Ally says they stopped for coffee, why not tell us if that can be verified? Conway, I think, is claiming that Ally killed her and just walked to school. Did she go in to get coffee by herself? Did somebody pay by credit card? Was the coffee cup in the yard from a coffee place? 

Because otherwise or we've got is Conway's imagination, and she doesn't seem like she's done any fact check on it. Personally, I wouldn't take her word for it that Ally made that "crime scene" comment at all, or at the time Conway said she had it. 

[Pop Tart]

10 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

I've got to admit something - I don't understand how exactly the gifting table was supposed to get anyone money. You come in, you bring $5k. Exactly who does that $5k go to? The person directly above you, or the "dessert" person? If it's the dessert person, do you just go to a bunch of dinner parties until you make your way up to the dessert level, and only bring $5k to the first? And of course it all depends on the people who are recruited actually being able to find people who can pay $5k so even one person not being able to find the requisite two people would screw the whole thing up.

1 dessert (top)
2 entrees (next)
4 soup and salads
8 appetizers (each brings $5000)

Splits into 2 new events led by the entrees from first event (top dessert person out)

1 dessert (entree from previous meeting)                                      1 dessert (entree from previous)
2 entrees (soup and salads from previous)                                    2 entrees
4 soup and salads (appetizers from previous)                               4 soup and salads
8 appetizers (2 each brought in by soup and salads)                   8 appetizers ($5000 each)

When you're brought in, you are an "appetizer" and bring $5000. There are 7 other of you at that level. So $40,000 for the person at the top, the "dessert". You and one other of those appetizers would have been brought by someone who was a step up (a "soup and salad") who would have brought their own $5000 at a previous meeting where they were the appetizer. Then after this meeting the dessert person steps away and the two people who were entrees then host separate events where they are now "desserts" - 2 of the "soup and salads" would go to each of those events and 4 of the "appetizers" to each. 

So you join, bring your $5000 and that goes to the dessert person. At the next meeting, that dessert person would be gone and the "entrees" from the previous meeting would now each be hosting their own party. Soups and salads move up to entree and you the "appetizer" from the previous meeting will have now recruited 2 people so that you can move up to "soup and salad" and they are your appetizers.

This is why Jill was so mad at Barb and Conway for bringing in her estranged sister Tracy (and others who were in AA). When she talked about having the conversation with her mother and how her mother was pushing her to bring her sister Tracy into the Tables. Jill asked her mother who Tracy knew who would have that kind of money. Her mother was like "no one". That's why Jill knew it would be a failure and lead to bad feelings (which it clearly did). If Tracy can't find 2 people to come in after her with $5000 each, then she cannot move up, and thus she would have paid her $5000 but never make it to dessert herself. 

Tracy herself when she was interviewed by Madison on the phone said "I didn't have that kind of money"  and that she didn't know anyone with that kind of money. And we know that the initial complaint to the feds about the tables was about Barb and her domain of tables. So someone (and I really think it may have been Tracy) got brought in who scraped together their $5000 but then could not find 2 other people with that money. So they're stuck. Their $5000 already went to the "dessert" at the event they attended. It's gone. But they cannot move up the chain to dessert themselves without bringing in 2 others. And now they're feeling scammed and robbed.

As cold as she's coming across, Jill did split with Barb because she apparently began to get greedy and was drawing in people who had no chance of succeeding at the table. I do think Jill has some reason to be angry. It was Barb's tables that generated the complaint and it was because of that complaint (and the newspaper article, to be fair) that the Feds began to investigate. And who went to jail? Donna and Jill who were heads of the whole thing in their geographic regions. Barb was the third of those and would have gone to jail as well, perhaps for even longer, if she had not been killed.

This is not to say that it wasn't going to collapse at some point, because pyramids schemes always do, but just that Jill had reason to be resentful. She seems to have a pretty solid alibi, so personally I'm not putting much weight on her being the one, but angry? Yes she is.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Pop Tart

[carrps]

10 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

Yeah, I can see how this is a pyramid scheme now that I've talked it out lol. Sure it's a lot of money but it also sounds like way too much effort for me. I'll take my boring old job over having to constantly scramble to find new marks to recruit.

I hate pyramid schemes. They were huge in the 80s. There was this horrible manager at my job back in the early 80s who was essentially fired (he said he left for bigger things, but y'know). He called people including me after he left. He was trying to rope us into his pyramid scheme. It was one that was popular at the time, though I'm completely forgetting what it was called. I was a low level programmer/analyst at the time, and I felt pressured. It was horrible. I was strong enough to say no and resist him, but I hated being put through that. I hope he was arrested!

 

4 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

The people in Madoff's scheme didn't know that they were part of a pyramid.  They thought they were straight up investing.  

Yeah, but some of these people were consistently making 15% profits. Completely unrealistic at the time they were making those percentages. They knew somewhere deep down (or they were stupid), but were willing to overlook these suspicions because they were in the group making bank.

[nexxie]

Just watched the first three episodes and love the way this is edited. The pieces of memory, nostalgia, fact and horror fit together like a puzzle - very appropriate to have been produced by Jigsaw Productions.

Madison’s adult review of his childhood family is something we all do to some extent - but there are enough suspicious characters and situations here to really hold my interest. Can’t wait for the final episode!

Edited December 5, 2020 by nexxie

[blixie]

Quote

I don't think she ever fully resolved with Barbara and her family, and I think that's affecting her judgment of them. If that makes sense.

Oh I think she NEVER forgave Barbara for taking her kid. I do not think she murdered her sister (I haven't forgotten the bit about the skin under the fingernails being a male Hamburg), but I think she might at some level have taken Barbara's murder as karma, that her sister ironically in some form, from  her perspective, got her just desserts. It's really telling that she says she can't look at Ali, because she looks SO MUCH like Barbie (and I don't actually think Ali does) and that she tries to let go of "the resentment" she feels toward Ali. It makes no sense for her to resent Ali, it makes no sense for Ali to have murdered her, Conway resents Barb STILL and she feels guilty for feeling that way especially since she had once planned to kill her. 

Anyway the fucking dad did it. C'mon. 

I think the technical aspect of this is very film school project, but I still find it compelling because of the personal angle, this stuff has probably bubbled underneath his family for years and he was sick of the bullshit and wanted everything out in the open, as well as wanting to come to terms with his grief, and if he can nail his dad to the wall for killing his mom that would be great too.

[spaceghostess]

This has been a really interesting watch for me, for many reasons, not the least of which are the weird family dynamics and the fact that the murder took place in Madison (WHY do you name your kid after the place where you’re raising him? 🙄), which is about half-an-hour south of where I live in Connecticut and has an excellent indie cinema where friends and I met for movies regularly, pre-‘rona.

I actually like the production values of this doc, particularly the art direction and Madison’s use of sound bites from old films and/or radio describing idyllic settings and how to raise perfect (per mid-century values) families. I’d like to know whether all of this was done under Madison’s direction or if a much rougher original was HBO’d to spruce it up.

Conway, IMHO, couldn’t get her act together to murder anybody; she is, however, one hundred percent guilty of being a shit-stirrer extraordinaire. I mean, to outright accuse Ali of killing her mother is beyond the pale—not because Conway doesn’t have a right to her suspicions, but because it’s completely unnecessary and basically nuts to go shouting them from the rooftops.

IDK, the dad is a garbage human, but I just don’t think he killed Barbara. He’s a creepy, manipulative mental abuser, but seems like someone who literally wouldn’t have wanted to get his hands dirty; if he’d wanted Barbara gone, he’d have hired a pro who’d make it look like a robbery gone wrong or something. She hadn’t managed to take him to the cleaners in the divorce and there wasn’t a custody battle (...was there? Please correct me if I’m misremembering.) so what would his motive have been?

I keep going back to the gifting tables scheme. You’ve got a hub of extremely entitled investors casting their nets wide for dupes: the likelihood of reeling in someone unstable and/or a greedy Karen going homicidal because she felt ripped off still seems very possible, IMHO.

[bilgistic]

4 hours ago, blixie said:

Oh I think she NEVER forgave Barbara for taking her kid. I do not think she murdered her sister (I haven't forgotten the bit about the skin under the fingernails being a male Hamburg), but I think she might at some level have taken Barbara's murder as karma, that her sister ironically in some form, from  her perspective, got her just desserts. It's really telling that she says she can't look at Ali, because she looks SO MUCH like Barbie (and I don't actually think Ali does) and that she tries to let go of "the resentment" she feels toward Ali. It makes no sense for her to resent Ali, it makes no sense for Ali to have murdered her, Conway resents Barb STILL and she feels guilty for feeling that way especially since she had once planned to kill her. 

Anyway the fucking dad did it. C'mon. 

This is why I think it's Jeffrey Hamburg (Barbara's ex-husband) and that he's got the cops on his side. There are only two male Hamburgs that I know of--Jeffrey and Madison. Madison was in college in Georgia when the murder happened.

2 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

if he’d wanted Barbara gone, he’d have hired a pro who’d make it look like a robbery gone wrong or something. She hadn’t managed to take him to the cleaners in the divorce and there wasn’t a custody battle (...was there? Please correct me if I’m misremembering.) so what would his motive have been?

It seems to me like that's exactly what he did (hired a hit man), hence him saying in the first episode that he "couldn't be placed at the scene." He owed literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in back child support and trust fund money he had stolen from Madison and Ali. He and Barbara were due in court for that issue that very morning when Barbara was killed.

It took my mother years to get child support garnished from my cop father's wages, so I don't have an issue believing that the battle over the non-payment was taking so long. My folks divorced when I was five and it was at least another five years or more before Mom was finally able to have my cheating piece of shit father ordered to pay.

Edited December 6, 2020 by bilgistic

[pigs-in-space]

25 minutes ago, bilgistic said:

This is why I think it's Jeffrey Hamburg (Barbara's ex-husband) and that he's got the cops on his side. There are only two male Hamburgs that I know of--Jeffrey and Madison. Madison was in college in Georgia when the murder happened.

It seems to me like that's exactly what he did (hired a hit man), hence him saying in the first episode that he "couldn't be placed at the scene." He owed literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in back child support and trust fund money he had stolen from Madison and Ali. He and Barbara were due in court for that issue that very morning when Barbara was killed.

They mentioned that Madison has an older half-brother, who must have been on the Hamburg side in the scene where his grandmother was showing them family photos. No mention of him or where he is located since then though. (Also although we heard in the interrogation that there was male Hamburg DNA under her fingernails, we can't verify that. Police are allowed to lie in interrogations so it's possible they said that to try and get Madison to tell them more about his father.)

I do wonder if Jeffrey could have stopped by the Hamburg house on his way to court, confronted Barbara as she was coming back from dropping off Ali at school, and then continued on to court after he killed her. It all depends on the timing I guess, and whether or not there would be blood splatter and the like. I'd guess there would be if it was a hammer that killed her. I don't know that I buy that he would have hired someone to kill her on the exact day they were due in court.

I think I still lean towards someone involved in the gifting tables, and it being a crime of opportunity. But again without all the hard facts it's difficult to make a real determination.

[spaceghostess]

4 hours ago, bilgistic said:

This is why I think it's Jeffrey Hamburg (Barbara's ex-husband) and that he's got the cops on his side. There are only two male Hamburgs that I know of--Jeffrey and Madison. Madison was in college in Georgia when the murder happened.

It seems to me like that's exactly what he did (hired a hit man), hence him saying in the first episode that he "couldn't be placed at the scene." He owed literally hundreds of thousands of dollars in back child support and trust fund money he had stolen from Madison and Ali. He and Barbara were due in court for that issue that very morning when Barbara was killed.

It took my mother years to get child support garnished from my cop father's wages, so I don't have an issue believing that the battle over the non-payment was taking so long. My folks divorced when I was five and it was at least another five years or more before Mom was finally able to have my cheating piece of shit father ordered to pay.

Ah, I forgot they were still in court about the child support and other money (duh)! I totally buy the protracted and bitter battle over that, as I had a divorce trial over custody and support (my ex didn’t want to pay any AT ALL when he makes at least three times what I do [when he feels like working]) and we’ve been in and out of court multiple times since the divorce was finalized because of his delinquency. He’s currently 8k in arrears and also refuses to pay for the kids’ extracurriculars or contribute to any school-related expenses. I expect to have to bring him to court again soon because of his refusal to support the orthodonture they both need as well as his likely refusal to allow them to have Covid vaccines (don’t get me started). This doesn’t scratch the surface of the crazy with him—he’s a malignant narcissist, so. . .  But even at his most batshit, I don’t think he’d have had me murdered—mainly because he’s too cheap to pay someone else to do it; he’d no longer have someone to take care of the kids whenever he decides to fuck off out of town on “business;”  and it wouldn’t be worth the risk to his own freedom if something went wrong. Of course, he could just kill me himself if he wanted to (he has lethal hand-to-hand combat skills), but I (and my lawyer) have ample evidence of his nutso ranting, so I’m sure he knows he couldn’t get away with it. He has done a lot of creepy stuff, but it’s a bridge too far, I think, even for him. Clearly, my personal experience biases me re: this case, although not in the direction many would expect!  I’m sorry about what your dad put you and your mom through; I sometimes still wonder how I managed to pick such a winner 🙄

If Jeffrey Hamburg did put a hit out on Barbara, it seems like a pretty sloppy job to me. On the other hand, Jeffrey’s still walking free, so mission accomplished if he did. 😞

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by spaceghostess
And another thing...

[ElectricBoogaloo]

SERIES FINALE!

S1.E4: Reasonable Doubts

Quote

With the 10-year anniversary of his mother's death approaching, Madison leaves no stone unturned in his quest for the truth, despite concerns that his documentary may be doing more harm than good.

Original air date: 12/6/20

[blixie]

Quote

 in the interrogation that there was male Hamburg DNA under her fingernails, we can't verify that. Police are allowed to lie in interrogations 

Yeah, I'm aware they can lie, but the DNA evidence results seemed to be widely distributed via news sources and to the family, the cops seemed to be confirming things they assumed Madison already knew, that the cigarette dna was his own and that the under the fingernail stuff could only be narrowed down to Hamburg male descendent. But yeah it's not clear that is an actual fact in evidence or if it was just something they were saying to fuck with Madison and hope he gave something up on his dad. 

But I also say if the evidence is real than he certainly did not hire any hit man and it fits the general police theory that it was personal crime of passion. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by blixie

[Annber03]

Oh, my god, the look on Madison's face when he read that letter about his dad being in potential trouble for suspected money laundering and his mom wanting to send stuff about his possible financial crimes to freaking Interpol. "What the f...", indeed. 

Yeah. That is definitely some explosive discovery there. No wonder Madison's dad gets so freaking squirrelly and defensive when he tries to talk to him about his past. Even if it turns out he's not involved in his wife's murder, he could very well wind up being on the hook for that financial stuff. It drove me nuts to hear him say that there was no reason for Madison to be digging into this stuff because it "had nothing to do with him or his sister". Uh, gee, I dunno, I'd say being away for months on end because you're claiming to do "work", only to actually be involved in some potentially very serious financial fraud instead, would definitely fall under "things that have to do with your family". What if he'd gone to jail for any of that stuff? What if he'd gotten involved with some shady people because of his questionable financial dealings? What if his family had lost money/their home because of his crimes? How was he going to explain that away to his children? They were bound to find out about this one way or another eventually, and it's something they absolutely deserve to know about. 

And he continues to put on this sanctimonious, "I don't hold this stuff against your mom" attitude while simultaneously dragging her through the mud and going on about all her flaws and faults, knowing full well she's not here to contradict him or dispute his claims. What a piece of work. At best, he's a total dick, at worst, he's a potential murderer. I have absolutely zero problem believing he had some involvement in Barbara's death-that bit about the curious time difference with the court date is...interesting, to say the very least, and if she was on to him about his financial schemes* and the fact she seemed genuinely afraid of him, and given the contentious nature of their divorce as it was...that's quite a lot of motive right there. The way he behaved anytime Madison even tried to talk to him about his mom, the way he instantly tried to shut down any conversation about her or her death, and the bitter way he keeps talking about her...it's just too weird and creepy. 

*I love, too, how he's trying to dismiss all those claims she made about his financial issues as the result of her heavy drinking. I mean, that stuff looked pretty detailed and organized, if she's drunk to the point of stumbling around and falling over and passing out, like he claims, I would imagine it'd be hard for her to be together enough to compile such an extensive list of information like that. Yes, she did have a drinking problem at one time, but those accusations and those documents don't look like they're the result of someone who was drunk when they put it all together. 

On a lighter note, I am glad that Madison was able to officially clear Ali's name, and that he let Conway know that besides, so she could let go of that suspicion. Ali's reaction to finding out her aunt was pointing the finger at her-she handled that with way more class and maturity than I think some would if they were in her shoes. I really appreciated the way she responded to that, and that she was sympathetic to the struggles her aunt was dealing with as well (given her own history, it makes sense she would be). It was nice to see her getting married-she seems to have found a peace that the rest of the family is still struggling with, which I found rather touching. Given the awkward tension Madison has with the rest of his family, seeing how close he and Ali are is all the more sweet. 

The bit with what they did with the remainder of Barbara's ashes was a nice touch, too. 

Very cool that Madison was able to get access to the case files. I hope they prove very helpful in giving him and his family the answers they deserve, and that they're able to finally nab whomever was responsible for his mom's death. And I hope the family can figure out how to move forward and heal in their own way with time as well. That bit with the tearful phone call from Conway had me legit worried we'd find out she, or  perhaps some other family member, succumbed to their own struggles somehow as this documentary was being made. It was kind of surprising to see the family gathering together as they did, given the messy history and all, but hey, it's certainly a start towards sorting this stuff out. 

[spaceghostess]

Wow. The finale made it really hard for me to remain loyal to my FORMER notion that Jeffrey probably isn’t guilty. Proof of his mountain of white-collar crime and apparently constant lying to Barbara, not to mention his doubling down on gaslighting and/or talking shit about anyone—living or dead—who questions him about ANYTHING makes him stink to high heaven. Manipulating those closest to him, refusing to take responsibility for anything, turning nasty on a dime, and being incapable of engagement, not mention introspection, on any serious matter are such classic hallmarks of a narcissist.

Remind me never to get murdered in Madison; the MPD’s combination of arrogance and incompetence is not a good look. How frustrating for Madison (the human, not the town). Poor kid. At least he was able to conclusively eliminate Ali as a suspect AND attend her lovely wedding to that very nice man. Conway continues to be a mess, but every family has at least one.

[iMonrey]

This was a very good finale, although the cliffhanger ending screams for a sequel. I was absolutely riveted by the scene where the police detective was confronted by the Yale law students and squirming in his seat as he had his own words read back to him. Conway was right about one thing, the Madison police sucked. Either that or there was just something shady going on with the investigation. Either way I'm glad Madison was awarded access to their files. 

I suppose it's still possible that someone tied up in the Gifting Table mess was responsible for Barbara's murder, but all trails lead back to Madison's father. What a piece of work. I thought Madison made a very good point asking him if he and Ali were in danger considering the financial shenanigans his father was involved in. I think Jeffrey's only interest in having a relationship with his son is to the extent that he can control him. 

Overall this turned out to be a pretty good docu-series. I was critical of the execution early on but Madison really did his homework. There was a lot more going on here than just pointing a camera at people and asking them questions.

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Conway was right about one thing, the Madison police sucked. Either that or there was just something shady going on with the investigation.

Given the dad's financial history, it wouldn't surprise me if he were trying to pay people to look the other way about his shady dealings. This is a rather ritzy area, so I can definitely see money having some influence over how investigations play out here. 

[Pop Tart]

After each of the first 3 episodes I could mentally make a case for "this person did it" or "that person did it" but I always had the dad at or near the top of the list. After this episode he's back to being my number one, almost only, suspect. Everything about his behavior screams of guilt and deflection and everything that was going on makes a circumstantial case for his guilt for sure. Now that we know for sure that Barb was returning home and the whole weirdness of thinking her court appearance had been moved to 2 pm? The husband did it, the husband did it, the husband did it.

As to the police, I do understand to some extent their position. What we think we know for sure (the husband did it!) and what they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt are very different things. But when Madison and his team went in there to offer their expertise and assistance and the detective was just like 'no, don't need it'. And when he said they'd basically known who their prime suspect was based on the DNA and have known since 2010? Well what are they doing about it? Did they examine the calls that came into Barb's phone to see who made the call about changing the court appearance? Had they attempted to login to her FB page to see what's up? (no!) Did they gather all the evidence at the crime scene? (purse! no) Did they talk to anyone regarding the tables? 

If they really do know who it is (the husband!) and need help to get to absolute proof - which I'll admit there isn't much of so far - then why not put Madison and his team to use? 

I really want to have some follow-up as to what all is in those 1600 pages Madison finally gets from the FOIA request. There needs to be a follow-up couple of episodes to tell us all about it. And perhaps this doc will have galvanized the Madison police to do something more as well.

[iMonrey]

Quote

Given the dad's financial history, it wouldn't surprise me if he were trying to pay people to look the other way about his shady dealings. This is a rather ritzy area, so I can definitely see money having some influence over how investigations play out here.

Isn't he broke though? He was living with his sister from what I could gather. And he wasn't paying a dime of chid support which was the whole reason he was in court, and likely the reason he wanted Barbara killed. Then again I can't figure out how he'd pay a hit man if he was broke but maybe he got some lowlife to do it for scraps. Either that or he knew Barbara had this paper trail of his financial dealings and didn't want those coming out in court. Maybe he planned to plead poverty but knew Barbara would pull out these records showing millions here and millions there. It's all very confusing though. From what I could tell, most, if not all of those transactions were phony. 

[cpcathy]

The husband did it (ALLEGEDLY!) He had motive, possibly $, and opportunity.  I wouldn’t be surprised if he wasn’t broke at all, paid a hit man, and the police were hiding something, they seemed so shady. A few episodes ago they asked Madison what he had on the case. Then this episode they say, “we don’t even have an anonymous letter or phone call!” Are they sitting around waiting for an anonymous call?? 

[blixie]

Quote

And when he said they'd basically known who their prime suspect was based on the DNA and have known since 2010? Well what are they doing about it? 

I hate cops and I'm so glad they FOIA'd them, but I do think there might be something else going on with their dragging their feet, and that the cop in his way might of thought he was giving Madison everything he needed to know, aka that the DNA they have is a male Hamburg descendent, Madison knows it's not him, and it's pretty clear the step brother is off the table, probably because he doesn't even live in Conn., so that only leaves one person. They also said the subject was unreachable by cell for 24 hours around the murder and we know his dad was unreachable for at least that (save his appearance in court?). I can see where maybe they didn't think it was enough, to go to trial, but I think it's far morel likely the FBI/Interpol have offered him some deal and so they will never move forward with a prosecution. So it really could be their hands are tied. Having said that, fuck them anyway, because they for sure screwed up the entire investigation including having enough DNA to develop a suspect w/o having enough DNA to prosecute. 

If there is one thing I think Madison wasn't honest with himself and the audience about (rightfully I guess in that he can't or ethically shouldn't accuse w/o evidence) its that he totally thinks/knows his dad did it/ so he knows what happened, what  he wants to know why from his dad and he wants to see his dad held accountable for having done it. I hope he gets at least one of those before his dad kicks it. 

[nexxie]

Really want to know who called to say court was at 2 instead of in the morning - thought that info would be in the case files Madison finally got.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

I doubt Jeffrey Hamburg is flat broke. Somebody who had so many business dealings overseas surely has some hidden off shore accounts. I don't doubt he told everyone he was broke in order to try and get out of child support payments but Barbara probably knew he had money, why else would she bother to take him to court? I noticed that Conway said if Ali hadn't pressured her mother into going after the child support, she would still be alive. Which makes me think that even Conway now thinks that Jeffrey is involved. Like if they had let go of the whole child support thing, Jeffrey wouldn't have a motive. Of course, Conway has to Conway and continue to blame Ali in some form or another.

I do think Jeffrey is the number one suspect. I think he hired a hit man. He kept telling Madison over and over that "he wasn't there" and "timeline doesn't work." So I don't think he did it himself. Plus, there's the guy in the ski mask skulking around. I doubt Jeffrey would do that, he'd have more luck getting close to Barbara if he showed up as himself.

I rolled my eyes so freaking hard whenever he told Madison that "there were 2 victims here" meaning Barbara and HIM. That's what made me say WTF. Who would even think to say something so absurd and callous to the son of a murdered woman? And his own son! Only a narcissist or similar would even think that way.

I'm interested if there's any follow up to this. I'd like to see them dig more into the tables if there's anything there or if it all points to Jeffrey.

[Darian]

Whether Madison's father did it or not, and I lean to guilty AF, he's a right bastard. Those poor kids. I'm so glad we got to see Ali happy on her wedding day, to what seems like a warm, loving man. She found her home (sniff). The first episodes, I wasn't crazy about the story-telling, but I warmed to it and ultimately I think it worked. Madison can feel proud of what he's done and I hope, as did Ali, that he finds peace, however it can come.

What a family. Yow.   

[blixie]

Quote

Somebody who had so many business dealings overseas surely has some hidden off shore accounts. 

He for sure did, Barb told her lawyer that he had referenced at least three to her, because I remember at least one she said was in the "caymens" and the typo/misspelling, much like the other lady saying misdemeaner made me twitch, which is uncool because I'm queen of typos.

[pigs-in-space]

Even if Jeffrey Hamburg ends up not being a murderer, he sure as hell is an awful person and an awful father. What did all of this have to do with his kids? I don't know, maybe NOT PAYING CHILD SUPPORT AND STEALING FROM THEIR COLLEGE FUND had something to do with them. Just a little. I also love how he went from no, all those financial docs must be nonsense to oh yeah, I know what bank transfer whatevers are but no those aren't related to anything, there's no man behind the curtain there.  "Family first" ha ha ha.

Compare him to Conway, who clearly has issues, but her issues seem to come from a place of deep hurt and regret. I didn't like the way she talked about Ali (wow, a child wanted her mom all the time...that never happens), but I'm glad that she accepted Madison's explanation about finding the school records. I hope she's able to find some peace. I don't believe she could be the murderer because I honestly don't believe she could keep a secret to save her life at this point. 

I hope there's a second season. I find the whole story very compelling.

Edited December 8, 2020 by pigs-in-space

[blixie]

Quote

Really want to know who called to say court was at 2 instead of in the morning - thought that info would be in the case files Madison finally got.

This is still speculative though, we don't know that a phone call led her to think a change of time, it could be she just had the time wrong all on her own. I say this having just gone to a dental appointment set tonight that was set for tomorrow night. Also while I get that it's a reasonable speculation, there is no way I'd accept a change in the time unless it came right from my own lawyer, and I'd side eye the hell out of court clerk calling me personally to change the time. Now maybe it was someone claiming to be an admin assist with her lawyer that would make more sense, but I'd still think any last minute change of time communication would come directly from the lawyer. 

[bilgistic]

I hate Jeffrey Hamburg almost as much as I hate my own father.

I cried and cried for Ali. I'm so happy she has a new family. Good for her for healing.

I want Madison to stop worrying about how people are going to react and understand that he's not responsible for other people's behavior. I hurt for him. His father has done such a number on him (and Ali, but she's done work on herself that Madison hasn't). That Madison still wants a relationship with Jeffrey speaks to how much gaslighting Jeffrey has done. Jeffrey sat there in the car and told Madison that he (J) wasn't involved in dealings that were proven by physical documents Madison saw with his own eyes. There's no redeeming Jeffrey. He's a toxic, pathological narcissist (coughandmurderercough), and Madison would do very well to break ties forever.

Conway is just going to drink herself to death, isn't she?

[chick binewski]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Isn't he broke though? He was living with his sister from what I could gather. And he wasn't paying a dime of chid support which was the whole reason he was in court, and likely the reason he wanted Barbara killed. Then again I can't figure out how he'd pay a hit man if he was broke but maybe he got some lowlife to do it for scraps. Either that or he knew Barbara had this paper trail of his financial dealings and didn't want those coming out in court. 

 

2 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I doubt Jeffrey Hamburg is flat broke. Somebody who had so many business dealings overseas surely has some hidden off shore accounts. I don't doubt he told everyone he was broke in order to try and get out of child support payments but Barbara probably knew he had money, why else would she bother to take him to court? I noticed that Conway said if Ali hadn't pressured her mother into going after the child support, she would still be alive. Which makes me think that even Conway now thinks that Jeffrey is involved. Like if they had let go of the whole child support thing, Jeffrey wouldn't have a motive. Of course, Conway has to Conway and continue to blame Ali in some form or another.

At certain points I would find myself doubting that the husband did it bc of what Madison left out of the doc. Ali started traveling right after her mother's death and Madison finished his college education - how was this financed by a pair of teenagers? Ali was moving between her mother & father's homes but Madison & Ali made it seem like they were cut off (emotionally & physically if not financially) from the father for some time. 

I've seen college funds weaponized after divorces, but Madison didn't really explore that or the lawsuit dad won after he was fired. Was Barbara's child support settlement awarded prior to Jeffrey getting canned? What were the details of the $3mil settlement? It seemed odd that Madison was going over papers he couldn't decipher when there seemed to be plenty of stuff available as public record. 

 

2 hours ago, blixie said:

I hate cops and I'm so glad they FOIA'd them, but I do think there might be something else going on with their dragging their feet, and that the cop in his way might of thought he was giving Madison everything he needed to know, aka that the DNA they have is a male Hamburg descendent, Madison knows it's not him, and it's pretty clear the step brother is off the table, probably because he doesn't even live in Conn., so that only leaves one person. They also said the subject was unreachable by cell for 24 hours around the murder and we know his dad was unreachable for at least that (save his appearance in court?). I can see where maybe they didn't think it was enough, to go to trial, but I think it's far morel likely the FBI/Interpol have offered him some deal and so they will never move forward with a prosecution. So it really could be their hands are tied. Having said that, fuck them anyway, because they for sure screwed up the entire investigation including having enough DNA to develop a suspect w/o having enough DNA to prosecute.  

If there is one thing I think Madison wasn't honest with himself and the audience about (rightfully I guess in that he can't or ethically shouldn't accuse w/o evidence) its that he totally thinks/knows his dad did it/ so he knows what happened, what  he wants to know why from his dad and he wants to see his dad held accountable for having done it. I hope he gets at least one of those before his dad kicks it. 

I try to give the benefit of the doubt to law enforcement and while I didn't like hearing how they addressed Madison for exploring his mother's death I don't think Madison can expect much cooperation after secretly recording them (btw they received a tip a week before the FOIA hearing? I am doubting this.)

And I think we know what Madison seems to believe deep in his heart - even if his dad didn't actually kill Barbara, Madison believes Jeffrey's actions were the cause of her death. He wouldn't have secretly recorded his father over several years if he wasn't ready to completely sever that relationship for good.

[blixie]

The cops were uncooperative and stonewalling long before they had any idea he was recording them, and they now HAVE to cooperate with him because he won the FOIA based on those recordings.  

[spaceghostess]

4 hours ago, blixie said:

He for sure did, Barb told her lawyer that he had referenced at least three to her, because I remember at least one she said was in the "caymens" and the typo/misspelling, much like the other lady saying misdemeaner made me twitch, which is uncool because I'm queen of typos.

I’m so with you on the bad spelling; I was clenching my teeth.