S01.E06: Swish

[Ohiopirate02]

9 minutes ago, ouinason said:

You know, I watched the scene directly after the infamous moment again and Daphne says that she really thought it wasn't true.  So here I am thinking "was this a test".  Not that it wasn't still what it was, but that she really, until that moment, did/wanted to believe that he physically COULDN'T come inside her (and btw, this is the weirdest and most graphic conversation about sex I have ever had about a TV show).

Because Simon told her that he couldn't have children, and Rose told her that it involved spilling inside her, therefore she went into it thinking "if he can't pull away it just might not happen" or something along those lines.  It's like she's putting him in a position where he is either unable to come at all or he's revealed as a big fat liar.  

 

It's super messed up, when she could just ask him.  And he could lie, but she'd know it.

 

And again, Simon (invested as he is in not getting his wife pregnant) does know that pulling out is a very shitty form of birth control, right?  

Yeah, Simon is not thinking this through very clearly.  He loves Daphne and wants to bang her, but he also doesn't want an heir.  He may be banking on his chosen method working because he is a rake who has successfully not impregnated anyone yet.  The key word her is yet.  Daphne really jumped the gun instead of waiting.  Chances are, Simon would have gotten too caught up in the moment and spilled inside of her eventually (I also struggle to type this without being too vulgar).  She needed to give him time.  He needed to work out his own conflicting issues.  He saw how much she wanted children and he wanted to keep on having sex with her without siring a male heir.  Again key word here, male.  They could have been like the Featheringtons and only had daughters.  Then Daphne would have gotten the children she wanted and he would still keep that promise to himself. Since Simon is a rich duke, adoption was also on the table.  

[Growsonwalls]

20 minutes ago, ouinason said:

And again, Simon (invested as he is in not getting his wife pregnant) does know that pulling out is a very shitty form of birth control, right?  

That really bugged me as well. They used to say "the best way of getting pregnant is using the pull-out method."

[Kim0820]

23 hours ago, mledawn said:

In the scene we're discussing, Simon actually asks Daphne to stop. It doesn't matter WHY he withdraws his consent. Regardless of gender, when one party no longer consents to an act, it is a form of sexual assault. The appropriate term for non-consensual sex is rape. The notion that it requires force is outdated and misleading.

Is this a trash storyline all around? Absolutely. Netflix could have removed the line where Simon asks Daphne to stop, and this would be a different discussion about the morality of Daphne's actions.

She could not physically force him to continue.  I think it should not be considered the same level, at least.  Just because the woman is on top makes it possible that she could become a rapist at any minute?  He could have stopped her, and could still have done the withdrawal method.  If her being on top means he cannot, then he'd better tell her never to do that, otherwise, it is not justice to call her a rapist.  I think there should be different categories for this.  People would be afraid to have sex at all if every second could result in being accused of rape.  And generally there are no witnesses, so society just can't handle this level of judgment on the situation.  We would never know who is telling the truth.  And they both could be, in their own minds.  

 

[Door County Cherry]

On 12/30/2020 at 1:03 PM, katha said:

I think it is also a problem of genre and that the show wants to pretend that it's 1987 or something. The term "bodice ripper" wasn't coined for nothing. There has always been at least a subset of romance novels that actually have presented very questionable/non-existent consent as a feature. Romance novels, particularly historicals, have been criticized for glamorizing rape and assault since forever.

True.  But this kind of thing isn't limited to romance novels.  And the reason it was employed did have something to do with a woman's fantasy and the idea that wanting sex is something "bad girls" do so they need to be taken.  I'm sure there have been tons of essays written on this so I won't go on.  Romance novels have made strides but things like 50 Shades and that Netflix movie (based on a book) 365 Days are still popular because many of those old fashioned notions are messages girls/women still get about what good girls do.  And that's just talking about things written for women.  There's the whole rape situation in other genres which isn't meant to fulfill some sort of ravishment fantasy. 

But raping a man isn't something commonly employed in romance books and sexual assault of men is still something society doesn't take seriously enough.  Writers often get this wrong and it's why including this scene, with all we know in 2020, is still off.  

Compared to the books:
 

Spoiler

They tried to make it "better" but it was still a non-consensual sex act.  They didn't try to think far enough outside of the box to have the same effect without the ickiness.

As for whether or not he said "stop" or "wait" is why the talk has moved away from "no means no" to "enthusiastic consent" when we talk about sex.  There are many things we saw to indicate a "no" that everyone understands. Daphne knew damn well what he wanted.  She chose to ignore him. So rape is definitely a logical conclusion.

And there's room to think that AND think that Simon's choices to lie, deceive, be unclear were toxic.  They betrayed each other.  

[Growsonwalls]

One thing Im not certain of is did Simon's speech impediment prevent him from clearly saying "no" to Daphne? Because it's written into the storyline that Simon has a marked speech impediment.

[ursula]

On a lighter note, I'm rewatching (lost count now!) and I love little details like how Rose gets a job upgrade to prepare Daphne for her wedding and her new job as Duchess. The scene in in the kitchen when everyone is asking her questions (roses or lilies? soak the cake in rum or brandy?) and the poor girl is overwhelmed, while the Bridgerton's housekeeper is practically telling her "you are already failing at your job" is LOL-worthy. 

[bijoux]

The servants' scenes in general were good and every featured one was an actual character, not just there for background. All three housekeepers we saw - Bridgertons', Featheringtons', Hastings' - played roles to move the plot. I loved how the servants were integral in exposing Berbrooke. 

[Growsonwalls]

6 hours ago, bijoux said:

The servants' scenes in general were good and every featured one was an actual character, not just there for background. All three housekeepers we saw - Bridgertons', Featheringtons', Hastings' - played roles to move the plot. I loved how the servants were integral in exposing Berbrooke. 

I really loved the scene where Eloise thinks Whistledown is a servant and the maid laughs saying she doesn't have time to be the gossip girl.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Growsonwalls

[bijoux]

4 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I really loved the scene where Eloise thinks Whistledown is a servant and the maid laughs saying she doesn't have time to be the gossip girl.

And then she shoos her off. Shows who's the boss there. 😄

[Adeejay]

14 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

That really bugged me as well. They used to say "the best way of getting pregnant is using the pull-out method."

There’s an old joke, “What do they call couples that used the pull-out method? Mom and Dad.”

Edited January 1, 2021 by Adeejay

[shapeshifter]

17 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Yeah, Simon is not thinking this through very clearly.  He loves Daphne and wants to bang her, but he also doesn't want an heir.  He may be banking on his chosen method working because he is a rake who has successfully not impregnated anyone yet…

Since this same episode has the conversation between Daphne and Ye Olde Head Housekeeper about Simon’s father seemingly not being very fertile, I am guessing my plot theories revolving around Simon also have a low sperm count may still prove to be correct.  
But I have not read the books, nor have I yet seen the final episodes.

Regarding the last sex scene: From the ages of 28 to 36, when my ex-husband (Simon’s size) and I (Daphne’s size) had sex, he routinely flipped me over without asking, and although I was never injured, I would have preferred he waited a bit. So it puzzled me why Simon did not do so, and made me wonder if this was a Chekhov’s Non-Flip, meaning Simon was changing his mind about not having a child because of his love for Daphne. The line from the Housekeeper about Simon’s father wanting “an heir” while Simon’s mother wanted “a child” were there for reasons ——perhaps including that while Simon does not want to produce an heir for his father, he might be beginning to want a child ——which Daphne could have then had without the angry sex. But also in this episode (or was it the previous?), Simon mentions that he first fell in love with Daphne when she punched the dude in the night garden. 

[nodorothyparker]

Ye gods, I hate contrived plots that could be entirely avoided if the adults involved just acted like, you know, adults and talked to each other.

Neither of them come off looking very good here. Oh, you just thought she knew how babies were made? Seriously? This is the girl who had no idea what masturbation was until you inappropriately told your then best bud about it. As she rightly points out, there's a huge difference between "can't have children" and "won't" and she made the decision to marry him and have a life with him based on the former. The problem with being a melodramatic ass is that one might take you seriously when you offer yourself up to die in a duel rather than see it as how deadly earnestly you feel about not furthering the family line, especially when that's not what you said. At the same time, you've just been clued in that your newly discovered sex life is not what it should be to even make the making of babies possible and start to wonder if that and the aforementioned supposed sterility are connected, making your husband a big fat liar from the beginning? Then use your big girl words and have that fight instead of physically forcing the issue as a test case. I'm not sure how much time has passed showtime, but judging by what's going on back in town they haven't really been together long enough where it's going to be easy to regain trust again after that.  Gah. I seriously just can't with this.

Penelope was kind of breaking my heart in this one. Yeah, it's a one-sided crush at this point but no one is listening to her or taking her seriously. 

They can probably now safely assume that whoever Lady Whistledown is that she's someone who has fairly intimate access to the Featherington household. Not only did she know Marina was pregnant, but that she was already pregnant when she showed up at their door. That narrows the suspect list considerably.

The housekeeper was serving up excellent side-eye to the chit of a girl who just happened to be her new duchess. I'm sure the servants appreciate all the semipublic sex happening all about the grounds.

[Growsonwalls]

Ok now that I've rewatched this series again (!!! -- yeah, the eye candy is fun) in the previous episode on their wedding night Simon asks Daphne whether she wants him to stop specifically. So even though they're married he's careful not to force any physical intimacy on her that she might not be ready for. 

So in that light Daphne's actions at the end of this episode are shitty. Because Simon has established a culture of respect and consent in their marriage.

[Avabelle]

They’re both assholes but there’s been no rape and I was surprised by the intensity of the conversation stating otherwise. I hope those two kids work it out. They’re both shits but no relationship is perfect. Especially a tv relationship.

While I get Marina’s predicament I found her very manipulative this episode and it was unappealing. I just found her lack of consideration for him at all to be very harsh. 

 

[ursula]

53 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Simon certainly owed it to her to explain his reluctance to have children.  Before the wedding.  Letting her go through with it with the belief that he was physically unable to perform and taking advantage of her naivete was cruel. 

What he owed her was the truth before their marriage and he did - he told her he couldn’t give her children. It wasn’t really her business at the time to know if it was from a physical disease or, in this case in a way, a psychological trauma. But after she became his wife, and early on in their sex life, he should have elaborated. He definitely should have told her the truth when she asked him if pulling out hurt. It was wrong to keep her in the dark about their sexual life.

 

And of course this is just speculation, but Daphne had known the truth, I feel she’d have married him anyway and just tried to change his mind by more delicate means. After all there was a time when she thought he was literally impotent and she still wanted to marry him.

What I think really pissed Daphne off was being made to feel foolish about something that would have been so obvious if she was just a little less ignorant.

Spoiler

She has the same anger at her mom.

 

[Avabelle]

54 minutes ago, ursula said:

It wasn’t really her business at the time to know if it was from a physical disease or, in this case in a way, a psychological trauma

Well it was actually because she entered the marriage thinking him incapable of having children out of inability rather than his own choice. It’s a huge difference and he owed her the full explanation...

...I agree though that she would have married him regardless so it’s a moot point really. 

[ursula]

54 minutes ago, Avabelle said:

Well it was actually because she entered the marriage thinking him incapable of having children out of inability rather than his own choice. It’s a huge difference and he owed her the full explanation...

 

Well think about it. If, for example, he was really impotent and before they wed he tells her this and she nopes out, he’s now confided a deeply personal, embarrassing secret to someone who isn’t obligated to respect his privacy. All he owed her was what was relevant to her - if you marry me, I won’t give you kids, can you live with that? Her answer was yes.

After they married, he definitely owed her as his wife and partner a full disclosure. Maybe not every sad aspect of his childhood trauma right away, but he definitely should have explained why he never ... completed inside her. Because that was just rude. 

Quote

...I agree though that she would have married him regardless so it’s a moot point really. 

Yep. Again I think what bothered her about the revelation was being made to feel/look stupid. She’s not just angry at him but at every one who kept her in that state of naïveté. 

[Growsonwalls]

I understand that Violet was a very old-fashioned well-bred lady but given the fact that she had 8 kids I'm thinking that she could have come up with a better sex-ed lesson for her daughter. What she said was so nonsensical and confusing it's not a surprise poor Daphne was completely clueless. 

[ursula]

9 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I understand that Violet was a very old-fashioned well-bred lady but given the fact that she had 8 kids I'm thinking that she could have come up with a better sex-ed lesson for her daughter. What she said was so nonsensical and confusing it's not a surprise poor Daphne was completely clueless. 

If you really want to give yourself Nightmare Fuel, remember that Daphne almost married Berbrooke with that level of ignorance!

[Haleth]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

What he owed her was the truth before their marriage and he did - he told her he couldn’t give her children  

But that wasn’t the truth. He could give her children if he chose to.  He deliberately misled her into thinking he was incapable. 

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Avabelle said:

...there’s been no rape and I was surprised by the intensity of the conversation stating otherwise. I hope those two kids work it out. They’re both shits but no relationship is perfect. Especially a tv relationship.

Ditto. 

However, regarding:

3 hours ago, Avabelle said:

While I get Marina’s predicament I found her very manipulative this episode and it was unappealing. I just found her lack of consideration for him at all to be very harsh. 

I wish they'd written Marina's story so we could see more clearly the duality of both her calculating manipulation and her necessity of doing so.

For example, I wish they had shown her being a little less antagonistic towards the elderly suitor, and instead more sad about it, and then show us a...[spoiler tagging because I think this suggestion references a later plot point] 

Spoiler

slightly older, less attractive and poorer woman who welcomes his proposal.

This would give more sense of her desperation when trying to manipulate Colin into an early marriage.

At least they did make it clear that... [spoiler tagging because I'm not sure if this is from a later episode]

Spoiler

Colin really did want to marry Marina after a love-at-first-sight encounter.

But just as they've painted the 2 main love birds with the brush of selfishness, so did Marina get a layer of that unattractive quality 
--which feels a little false to me, because I would think the wealthy wouldn't have reason to cultivate selfishness, having had so much handed to them
--but that seems to be a theme of the series
--and what do I know about society in those times? Not much, except as presented in the Jane Austen novels.

Edited January 2, 2021 by shapeshifter

[shapeshifter]

12 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I understand that Violet was a very old-fashioned well-bred lady but given the fact that she had 8 kids I'm thinking that she could have come up with a better sex-ed lesson for her daughter. What she said was so nonsensical and confusing it's not a surprise poor Daphne was completely clueless. 

Ah, but Daphne is the oldest. Violet has never had the marriage-sex talk with a daughter before, and, likely, her own mother had no such talk with her. 
Violet may do better with Eloise, but, more likely, Daphne will explain things to El first--or at lest in more detail.

[Growsonwalls]

9 minutes ago, ursula said:

If you really want to give yourself Nightmare Fuel, remember that Daphne almost married Berbrooke with that level of ignorance!

Or she could have married the Prussian prince, been whisked away to a far off land, and then had servants and courtiers gawking at her on her wedding night. All the while only knowing that dogs make puppies. 

She's lucky that Simon was gentle and patient with her.

[ursula]

15 minutes ago, Haleth said:

But that wasn’t the truth. He could give her children if he chose to.  He deliberately misled her into thinking he was incapable. 

It is true from his perspective, because his vow to his father didn’t make it a choice for him. I mean even semantically “can” is defined as “able to do” or “permitted to do”. Again I agree he should have elaborated more when they were husband and wife, and that was where he misled her. Before the wedding, he told her all she needed to make an informed choice to marry him or not. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by ursula

[bijoux]

15 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Or she could have married the Prussian prince, been whisked away to a far off land, and then had servants and courtiers gawking at her on her wedding night. All the while only knowing that dogs make puppies. 

She's lucky that Simon was gentle and patient with her.

With the vantage of hindsight, I can actually say I think the prince would have been a good match for Daphne. I was the first to say that the prince was wholly inappropriate because he was from God knows where, but then he said he was educated in England and was interested in spending plenty of time there. Plus his temerampent suited Daphne well, better than Simon's IMO. 

Daphne chose Simon, which certainly her perogative, but I don't think her match with the prince would have been a bad one. 

[ouinason]

I mean, informed consent is important, especially with a permanent commitment.  He knew she didn't understand and made a concerted effort to deceive her.  Also, IF he had had some kind of disease... he most DEFINITIVELY should have told her before marrying her.  That's deal breaker territory way beyond "no kids".

[ursula]

On paper it should have been a good match, but in reality, she'd have been miserable. Even her mom knew this* as you can tell from her vastly different reactions when she thought Daphne was engaged to the Prince vs Duke. The Prince would have been a good match for an older Daphne, after a few unsuccessful seasons and willing to settle. But she was too young and idealistic to compromise what she wanted, and she'd have self-sabotaged her marriage the same way she had a literal panic attack at the thought of being engaged to someone else. 

*We need to talk more about Violet getting increasingly plastered that night, and insisting the next morning that she didn't "overindulge".

[shapeshifter]

12 minutes ago, bijoux said:

With the vantage of hindsight, I can actually say I think the prince would have been a good match for Daphne. I was the first to say that the prince was wholly inappropriate because he was from God knows where, but then he said he was educated in England and was interested in spending plenty of time there. Plus his temerampent suited Daphne well, better than Simon's IMO. 

Agree, however, regarding:

12 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Daphne chose Simon, which certainly her perogative, but I don't think her match with the prince would have been a bad one. 

If not for the *scandalous* garden interlude and the dueling, Daphne probably would have married the prince, right?
Or am I misremembering? 
So marrying Simon is not really her choice, but rather a duty because she felt responsible, right? I mean, the whole no-kids thing (regardless of "will nots" or "can nots").
(Although I don't doubt Daphne was turned on by Simon more than the Prince, I'm sure she could have had hot sex with Prince eventually, had they married.)

[ouinason]

Having a panic attack at just the idea that he was going to propose did not bode well for a match with the Prince.

[ursula]

2 minutes ago, ouinason said:

I mean, informed consent is important, especially with a permanent commitment.  He knew she didn't understand and made a concerted effort to deceive her.  Also, IF he had had some kind of disease... he most DEFINITIVELY should have told her before marrying her.  That's deal breaker territory way beyond "no kids".

She had informed consent to marry him - because he told her he couldn't give her kids. I mean, I really don't know what more he owed her at that point in time*. Short of disclosing personal information that wasn't her business at the time, Simon made it very clear to her that she wouldn't be getting the life she wanted from him, and she should let him go and she refused. After they married, he definitely should have told her more details. 

And obviously, he didn't tell her he had a disease because he didn't have any? 

 

*Heck, part of the reason why Simon told her he can't have kids - as opposed to "I physically am capable of having children but I have chosen not to for reasons" - is because he suspected (and the story kind of proves this true) that if she knew he could have kids, she'd marry him and start trying to change his mind. He was basically giving her the worse case scenario and asking her if she could live with that.

[ouinason]

I was responding to the idea that he didn't have to tell her about the exact nature of the "no kids", be it disease, impotence, injury or vow, until after they got married.  That's all. 

[ursula]

3 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

If not for the *scandalous* garden interlude and the dueling, Daphne probably would have married the prince, right?
Or am I misremembering? 
So marrying Simon is not really her choice, but rather a duty because she felt responsible, right?

Nope. The Queen wanted her to marry the Prince and actually gave Daphne the choice in the end when they asked for the license. Her brothers and Simon would never have said anything about what happened so it would have been Cressida's - jilted, title-less sour grapes Cressida's - word against hers and as Daphne says as much "I'm going to be a Duchess Princess and you're going to be unmarried and untitled. Do you want me as a friend or enemy?" Even the Prince wants to be sure that she's marrying the Duke by choice, not by force so she could probably have told him and he'd still want her. (And she basically confesses that she's the one trapping Simon into the marriage). Basically, Daphne married Simon because she wanted to marry Simon. 

2 minutes ago, ouinason said:

I was responding to the idea that he didn't have to tell her about the exact nature of the "no kids", be it disease, impotence, injury or vow, until after they got married.  That's all. 

OK I understand. He definitely should have elaborated on disease and/or impotence if that was the issue. But it really was just kids. He could fulfil every other aspect of his marital obligations just fine. 😄  

[Katsullivan]

9 minutes ago, ursula said:

*Heck, part of the reason why Simon told her he can't have kids - as opposed to "I physically am capable of having children but I have chosen not to for reasons" - is because he suspected (and the story kind of proves this true) that if she knew he could have kids, she'd marry him and start trying to change his mind. He was basically giving her the worse case scenario and asking her if she could live with that.

I think this is a very good point about Simon's own agency and sense of betrayal that the story kind of overlooks. His reasons behind his choice to not have kids are definitely fucked up, but that was still his choice, and everyone's choice should be respected, not just Daphne's. If we're talking about informed consent and betrayal, we also need to talk about Daphne promising Simon that she was OK being without kids and just being an aunt, then going back on that the moment she realised she could make him give her children. Even if that scene never happened, her immediate about-face from "I'm happy being childless with you" to "OK, you owe me kids and I won't be happy until I get them" was a betrayal. 

[Growsonwalls]

44 minutes ago, ursula said:

 *We need to talk more about Violet getting increasingly plastered that night, and insisting the next morning that she didn't "overindulge".

It's pretty realistic. Women at that time after they raised their kids hadn't much to do during the daytime. So it was not unusual that many of them "overindulged" themselves into serious drinking problems. Violet wasn't at that point but many women were. 

Also at that time various alcoholic drinks were given as medicines for pretty much anything. Cough? Alcohol. Pain? Alcohol. 

[ursula]

2 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

It's pretty realistic. Women at that time after they raised their kids hadn't much to do during the daytime. So it was not unusual that many of them "overindulged" themselves into serious drinking problems. Violet wasn't at that point but many women were. 

 

I just think it was just funny. She drank whenever Daphne danced with the Prince. Then whenever Anthony looked piningly at Sienna. And whole gulps not just shots. She was doing her own mental drinking game that night. Colin walks her drunken ass up the stairs while she's protesting that she did not overindulge, how dare he! And the next morning, she insists she's not hungover while her housekeeper just pretends to agree with her as she prepares the hungover tea. 

[ursula]

23 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Even if that scene never happened, her immediate about-face from "I'm happy being childless with you" to "OK, you owe me kids and I won't be happy until I get them" was a betrayal. 

The focus becomes primarily on Daphne and - I know people hate this word but it's really the only appropriate one - her entitlement to have kids. And we all kind of ignore that Simon is exactly in the same position he spent his whole life avoiding - married to a woman who's asking him for something he doesn't want to give her. We just kind of have to look at things through the fantasy Regency "Babies Make Everything Better" lens that Simon not wanting babies is a moral failing that Daphne needs to help him overcome.

[Growsonwalls]

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

I just think it was just funny. She drank whenever Daphne danced with the Prince. Then whenever Anthony looked piningly at Sienna. And whole gulps not just shots. She was doing her own mental drinking game that night. Colin walks her drunken ass up the stairs while she's protesting that she did not overindulge, how dare he! And the next morning, she insists she's not hungover while her housekeeper just pretends to agree with her as she prepares the hungover tea. 

I kind of wish they gave Violet more of those human moments. They made her a pretty dull character whose most memorable scene was the spectacularly ineffective sex ed lesson.

[Enginerd]

Watching the supposed rape scene, I didn't see a rape at all. Simon said "wait", which was vague, but then was just moaning "Daphne...Daphne", which could be interpreted as being in the throes of passion and wanting to keep going. That's what I thought was happening, especially since he looked excited when she got on top, until it was over and he was mad. He's much bigger and stronger than her and could have easily pushed her off, or actually told her to stop instead of vaguely moaning things she was apparently supposed to interpret.

I didn't think she was trying to force him; she knew she was physically incapable of doing so if he wanted to stop her. I think she wanted to see how far he would go with his scheme and if he would confess to what he was doing. She did want a baby, but needed his cooperation on some level.

[nomodrama]

14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

18 hours ago, Avabelle said:

...there’s been no rape and I was surprised by the intensity of the conversation stating otherwise. I hope those two kids work it out. They’re both shits but no relationship is perfect. Especially a tv relationship.

Ditto. 

Agree as well. 

I also think that Marina wants to have her cake and eat it too. She's in a desperate situation with very limited options but she still wants to be choosy and is willing to lie to an innocent person in order to maintain her happiness.  She's no better than any of the other jerks on this show. 

[ouinason]

14 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Women at that time after they raised their kids hadn't much to do during the daytime.

Heh.  I know it's not what you mean, but I find the idea that she's done raising her kids when the youngest is 11 funny.  It reminded me of that one scene in Look Who's Talking with Kirstie Allie and George Segal.  "I've raised my children" "Your daughter is 6"

[Avabelle]

6 hours ago, nomodrama said:

I also think that Marina wants to have her cake and eat it too. She's in a desperate situation with very limited options but she still wants to be choosy and is willing to lie to an innocent person in order to maintain her happiness.  She's no better than any of the other jerks on this show. 

Agree with this on so many levels. Her situation is shitty but she wasn’t willing to settle for any old schmuck. She was happy to lie and manipulate Colin because she viewed him as the best of the bunch. Had the truth come out once they were married I don’t think she’d have been that sorry. Maybe it was the way the actress played her so sullen but she didn’t come off as particularly thoughtful of anyone’s interests bar her own. I respect her but still don’t think she’s a victim of much bar being pregnant at a terrible time. 

[peachmangosteen]

11 hours ago, Enginerd said:

I didn't think she was trying to force him; she knew she was physically incapable of doing so if he wanted to stop her. I think she wanted to see how far he would go with his scheme and if he would confess to what he was doing. She did want a baby, but needed his cooperation on some level.

I agree with this which is why I would say Daphne violated Simon. She was testing him, which was a dick move. She should have talked to him. Now, he also should have talked to her and told her exactly what he meant by 'can't have kids.' Like a few others have said, they're both assholes lol. The problem imo is that it doesn't appear the writers wanted us to see anything wrong with what Daphne did.

[MrsR]

Goodness,  I really do prefer my Regency romances without all the jizz. And the talk about the jizz. Hopefully next years ton season will be sans jizz.

[Nidratime]

On 12/29/2020 at 3:49 PM, Atlanta said:

It's also on Amazon Prime for those who may want to catch it. You get a Carla Gugino, pre Oscar Mira Sorvino and a swoony Greg Wise.

Good to know. Yes, both Greg Wise and Carla Gugino are both beautiful in the Buccaneers and their love is heartbreaking. Based on the Edith Wharton unfinished novel. Highly recommend.

On another topic, the idea that Simon and Daphne entered marriage without her knowing that he didn't want to have children is totally on him, being the most experienced and the person with the issue that's central to this discussion. She, understandably, thought he couldn't have them. I'm not shocked she felt blindsided when she found out.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Nidratime

[funnygirl]

F**k Daphne. And f**k Marina. 

[shapeshifter]

35 minutes ago, funnygirl said:

F**k Daphne. And f**k Marina. 

Well, as a matter of fact,

Spoiler

both of those happen

 

[Enginerd]

14 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I agree with this which is why I would say Daphne violated Simon. She was testing him, which was a dick move. She should have talked to him. Now, he also should have talked to her and told her exactly what he meant by 'can't have kids.' Like a few others have said, they're both assholes lol. The problem imo is that it doesn't appear the writers wanted us to see anything wrong with what Daphne did.

Definitely. What she did was not right at all. Although her anger at his deception was justified, that was not the way to address it. Simon was also right to be mad when he found out she did this on purpose, although if he really wanted to stop, he should have said so. I myself thought his behavior during the scene indicated "this is hot; let's keep going; to hell with my stupid revenge plan". 

Also, to be indelicate, he doesn't seem to last long, does he? All these quickies with like two seconds of foreplay. How has Daphne been enjoying most of their encounters?

[katha]

The problem is also that Daphne and Simon are acting as romance tropes here, not really as characters IMO. What they actually need to do to solve their problems is talk and assess their behaviour so they can have a better marriage going forward. No amount of "twu wuv" declarations will help their issues. But since people just communicating with each other is "boring", there is never a satisfying conclusion to their story. Just more "romantic" nonsense thrown their way that is supposed to signal that all is awesome now or whatever. Far as I can see, they haven't confronted their problems at all.

[Roseanna]

On 1/2/2021 at 6:54 PM, ursula said:

Well think about it. If, for example, he was really impotent and before they wed he tells her this and she nopes out, he’s now confided a deeply personal, embarrassing secret to someone who isn’t obligated to respect his privacy. All he owed her was what was relevant to her - if you marry me, I won’t give you kids, can you live with that? Her answer was yes.

After they married, he definitely owed her as his wife and partner a full disclosure. Maybe not every sad aspect of his childhood trauma right away, but he definitely should have explained why he never ... completed inside her. Because that was just rude.

These two situations aren't equal at all. An impotent man had an initimate medical problem that was embarrassing. Thus, he would have spoken totally truthfully by saying before he proposed: "I can be your husband only nominally" or "we will live like brother and sister".

Instead, Simon's situation wasn't embarrassing and it was totally his choice. He had a duty to tell the whole truth to Daphne before they married. He would have deceived her even if he had revealed the whole truth after the marriage.       

On 1/2/2021 at 7:22 PM, ursula said:

It is true from his perspective, because his vow to his father didn’t make it a choice for him.

No vow is  The English people (or rather the Protestant elite) had broken their vows to their king and chosen another ruler.

Simon should have gone to the priest who certainly would certainly made him see sense. If he had vowed to revenge on his father's enemy, it would have been right to break the vow that was harmful to the other. Why would he then have to keep the vow that was harmful to himself?

And as Daphne rightly said, his vow to his father was against his marriage vow (marriage in the church meant a willingness to get and raise children).  

On 1/2/2021 at 8:03 PM, ursula said:

*Heck, part of the reason why Simon told her he can't have kids - as opposed to "I physically am capable of having children but I have chosen not to for reasons" - is because he suspected (and the story kind of proves this true) that if she knew he could have kids, she'd marry him and start trying to change his mind. He was basically giving her the worse case scenario and asking her if she could live with that.

The story doesn't prove that, because Daphne acted in anger. If she had made a choice to marry Simon knowing all the facts, she would have accepted it. If not, she would have argued with him (which was her right), but not tried to trick him.   

On 1/2/2021 at 8:53 PM, ursula said:

The focus becomes primarily on Daphne and - I know people hate this word but it's really the only appropriate one - her entitlement to have kids. And we all kind of ignore that Simon is exactly in the same position he spent his whole life avoiding - married to a woman who's asking him for something he doesn't want to give her. We just kind of have to look at things through the fantasy Regency "Babies Make Everything Better" lens that Simon not wanting babies is a moral failing that Daphne needs to help him overcome.

 

On 1/2/2021 at 8:26 PM, Katsullivan said:

I think this is a very good point about Simon's own agency and sense of betrayal that the story kind of overlooks. His reasons behind his choice to not have kids are definitely fucked up, but that was still his choice, and everyone's choice should be respected, not just Daphne's. If we're talking about informed consent and betrayal, we also need to talk about Daphne promising Simon that she was OK being without kids and just being an aunt, then going back on that the moment she realised she could make him give her children. Even if that scene never happened, her immediate about-face from "I'm happy being childless with you" to "OK, you owe me kids and I won't be happy until I get them" was a betrayal. 

That not wanting children of his own would have been OK if he wouldn't have to compromised Daphne's reputation in the park or if he had, he should have been told her the whole truth before the marriage and then make sure by having other kinds of sex with her than intercourse.

Simon would even have chosen to marry Daphne to save her reputation but give her freedom to have children by another man (wouldn't that have been the best revenge on his father?), instead of becoming a jealous husband.  

[Avabelle]

2 hours ago, katha said:

Just more "romantic" nonsense thrown their way that is supposed to signal that all is awesome now or whatever. Far as I can see, they haven't confronted their problems at all.

 It works here though because Simons decision of never having kids was more about revenge on his father then it was an actual real mature decision that kids weren’t for him. It was a childish declaration done in order to hurt a man who rejected and was horrible to him. He felt he was never enough and once Daphne told him he was that was the end of it. The reason that they didn’t need to go that deep was because his decision didn’t go that deep. It was made out of hurt and anger. 

 

Had he actually not wanted kids a la Cristina Yang style then yes I’d agree their problems were definitely not resolved. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Avabelle