S15.E17: Unity

[KayCordingly]

Okay, I just wanna say before I get into reading the comments here: this episode was much better than I thought it was going to be. That's most likely due to my low expectations after the cringe ending of the previous episode. 

I feel like I understand a lot more where Dean is coming from now, especially after he blurted out that Jack's not family. I think that what he is feeling is totally valid and don't view him as the bad guy at all. 

Death's intention of becoming the new God for the sake of keeping everything in its natural order makes sense to me and is in line with Billie's character.

Yay Meg! Or notMeg. Still, it was nice to see the actress. 

The Amara/Dean/Sam title cards were pointless, seeing as how one usually only uses that technique when they are showing the same series of events from different perspectives, which was not what was happening here.

Sam & Dean's fight at the end was much better-handled than I thought it was going to be. 

Why is Chuck mad at team Freewill if he's the one who orchestrated all of that in the first place? Weren't they just unknowingly following his own script for events? Shouldn't he be calling them good little soldiers or something?

Also, I'm just gonna say it: Chuck is worse than Metatron.

[Smad]

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Since my post from last night is missing, I'll try and reconstruct a couple of my points.

So it's not just me. Every single one of my posts has so far disappeared from this thread.

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

BabySpinach and ukgirl71 made excellent points about Amara's extremely misogynistic ending, which IMO is made so worse when it comes from a female writer. Amara is not this pathetic, she is not this weak, she should not be that easily manipulated by "that dweeb". Disgusting.

It's an absolute disservice what was done to her character. And in such a sexist way, since the beginning really. That's been her entire story on the show, in hindsight. I thought considering how they wrote her in 15.02 we would turn a corner but nope. Should have seen it coming after 15.15 and her naively trusting Dean (after she had already been tricked and 'betrayed' by Dean in S11). This all powerful being was brought down because of feelz. Chuck, Lucifer and Dean...betrayed/abandoned/tricked/locked up but she falls for it every time because she's a woman I guess with feelz. So freaking insulting. What makes this worse, she is the only higher power in this fight purely to defend THE WORLD. Empty, Chuck and Billie (granted Billie is God's puppet) are all in it for their own selfish reasons not caring a fig about the world. But Amara, the world's one defender, gets betrayed and used by everyone in the most sexist way. And this travesty was written by a woman? This was an internalized misogyny sledgehammer episode. Will be lovely having this writer as an EP on The Boys (🤮).

Amara broke my heart so many times this episode. The only character that I felt anything for. I wanted to feel for Dean but he wasn't in the episode.

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

That is an insult to Baby Yoda!

Seriously. I'm offended on behalf of the cute green puppet. Babies can get away with being babies because they are babies. Most people expect more of those with a fully developed brain like Jack. The Nougat spend the last 3 years learning nothing. Even his facial expressions haven't developed, he only has one.

40 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

Amara's ending sounds awful, but I still haven't watched.  I do hope she was playing him, but that would also mean giving these writers some credit.  I don't know that they can do it.  I wish I had stopped with last call.  But part of me needs to finish the train wreck.

I'm guessing it's her ending and it is awful. Even if by some miracle it's not, she will still do the fighting without having a VOICE because she's in Chuck and that's where the fight will be, if there really is going to a fight (I bet not).

[Terese]

34 minutes ago, KayCordingly said:

Okay, I just wanna say before I get into reading the comments here: this episode was much better than I thought it was going to be. That's most likely due to my low expectations after the cringe ending of the previous episode. 

I feel like I understand a lot more where Dean is coming from now, especially after he blurted out that Jack's not family. I think that what he is feeling is totally valid and don't view him as the bad guy at all. 

Death's intention of becoming the new God for the sake of keeping everything in its natural order makes sense to me and is in line with Billie's character.

Yay Meg! Or notMeg. Still, it was nice to see the actress. 

The Amara/Dean/Sam title cards were pointless, seeing as how one usually only uses that technique when they are showing the same series of events from different perspectives, which was not what was happening here.

Sam & Dean's fight at the end was much better-handled than I thought it was going to be. 

Why is Chuck mad at team Freewill if he's the one who orchestrated all of that in the first place? Weren't they just unknowingly following his own script for events? Shouldn't he be calling them good little soldiers or something?

Also, I'm just gonna say it: Chuck is worse than Metatron.

I think it is the blind rage and incoherent words people speak when they are angry and insulting. If Dabb is Chuck, he can't say all that he really thinks, so his disdain for the characters is convoluted and non-sensical. In my opinion, Dabb has attempted to rewrite the story in his own vision. What he hasn't been able to retcon, he has nothing but disdain for. So, he insults them for the writing that was done in the past that he can't completely change. But he can nullify it by a reset, as can Billie. 

[FlickChick]

I have come to the conclusion that I find each episode more aggravating, insulting, infuriating, and loathsome than the last. I cannot understand how Jensen was able to deliver the dialog on the page. If anyone had any doubts about the level of his acting ability, all they have to do is watch this episode, and see the master actor that can act against his own character. I agree with all that has been said about the absurdity and downright nastiness shown Dean. It was so obvious that they were out to show MEEN DEEN that I almost did throw something at the TV. And yes, Glynn has finished drinking her KoolAid. It's hard to believe that she once wrote an episode that was positive toward Dean. I am so angry and sad that this once favorite show has become something that I dread to see how they're going to ruin it next. BTW, where's the gag emoji?

[7kstar]

Well, I finally watched.  God's speech, who cares.  Only bright spot was the Meg part.  Meaning the actress, don't remember her name.

I did like that Amara and Dean went off script.  So as I was watching, I started wondering where would I change the script.  Totally rewriting it in my mind.  I did have some ideas I could play with when this train wreck is over.

My only ending impression a big bunch of nothing.  Not excited about anything at this point.  I'm afraid Jensen is just too nice,  and I have zero faith that the show will end in a way that makes this fan happy.  Guess the good news, I only have to buy one ep from this season because I do want to watch Christian Kane and Jensen sing together again and it was enjoyable.  So I'll probably put down $1.99 for it.  Won't bother with HD.  I can wait till the season is over before I buy if maybe they can turn it around, but if this hadn't been the last season I would have just stopped.

[PAForrest]

3 hours ago, 7kstar said:

PA how I laughed when I read your first paragraph about Chuck.  I've never bought him as the big bad.

Well, I never said he was a good Big Bad - 'cuz he ain't. LOL! But on paper and for the sake of whatever the hell the showrunner's intentions are, Chuckles is considered the Big Bad. Like my husband said, it's stupid.

2 hours ago, KayCordingly said:

Also, I'm just gonna say it: Chuck is worse than Metatron.

Metatron was WAY better than Chuckles! And his motivation was clearer, being that Chuckles broke his heart. And it's somewhat in line with the other angels who wanted the Apocalypse, and what AU!Michael said about the same - they were all just trying to get God's attention. Honestly, they shouldn't have cared or bothered.

We're at the end here and I have no idea what Chuck's real issues are. He's suddenly just a garden variety sociopath, for no apparent reason.

[starfishka]

Hate this show so much right now.
Why Dean suddenly trusts Billy so much? Was there a conversation between them/a scene or two i missed? 
So Sam doesn't trust Billy, but has no problem to trust the Empty. Amara knows Chuck is a liar and manipulator, but of course after a while he is suddenly the most trustworthy entity in her eyes. 
Great that they finally remembered they have a key to Death´s library hidden somewhere in the bunker. Why bother trying to find it immediately after you are told about it. But of course they found it in a few minutes.
Dean is right. Jack is not a family. But am afraid neither is Sam nor Cas anymore.
They will apparently find the right solution how to defeat Chuck (and Billy) in max. two episodes. Makes sense to me now why the "writers" made no effort to write at least a few decent scripts this season. In the overall scheme of things, they are pointless.  
And am sorry, but this episode has made me realise even more that i really am not/never will be a fan of Jared´s acting.

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by starfishka

[KayCordingly]

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

We're at the end here and I have no idea what Chuck's real issues are. He's suddenly just a garden variety sociopath, for no apparent reason.

This is why I keep thinking that there HAS to be more to Chuck than meets the eye. There's no way he can be such a one-dimensional villain... can there?

[Castiels Cat]

15 hours ago, KayCordingly said:

Okay, I just wanna say before I get into reading the comments here: this episode was much better than I thought it was going to be. That's most likely due to my low expectations after the cringe ending of the previous episode. 

I feel like I understand a lot more where Dean is coming from now, especially after he blurted out that Jack's not family. I think that what he is feeling is totally valid and don't view him as the bad guy at all. 

Death's intention of becoming the new God for the sake of keeping everything in its natural order makes sense to me and is in line with Billie's character.

Yay Meg! Or notMeg. Still, it was nice to see the actress. 

The Amara/Dean/Sam title cards were pointless, seeing as how one usually only uses that technique when they are showing the same series of events from different perspectives, which was not what was happening here.

Sam & Dean's fight at the end was much better-handled than I thought it was going to be. 

Why is Chuck mad at team Freewill if he's the one who orchestrated all of that in the first place? Weren't they just unknowingly following his own script for events? Shouldn't he be calling them good little soldiers or something?

Also, I'm just gonna say it: Chuck is worse than Metatron.

I think Dean was supposed to kill Sam and he didn't... it was supposed to play out until it faIled so Chuck could enjoy Dean's pain.

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Bergamot]

On 10/29/2020 at 9:47 PM, Frost said:

And I really don't get the problem with Billie's plan.  Just because some people that Sam cares about, that actually should be dead, would be dead because of the reset, he absolutely refuses to consider it?  And Dean's the selfish one?  Angels back in Heaven, Demons back in Hell, no more interference on Earth.  Sounds good to me.

 

On 10/29/2020 at 10:57 PM, BoxManLocke said:

It's incredible that after all those times the brothers had apparently grown through learning that choosing to save each other or a single person instead of making the difficult sacrifice for the greater good made things worse every single time, Billie's plan not only isn't even considered, they're actually going to kill her because of it.

Billie is the new showrunner we all need.

These are exactly the arguments that Dean -- the real Dean -- would have made. But because this was Chuck's poorly written version of Dean, all he was allowed to say is that he wanted off the hamster wheel. (Because Dean, of course, has ALWAYS put what is best for himself first, am I right? Sure he has.)

When I heard what Billie had planned, I was on Team Billie too. Think of the untold human suffering that we have witnessed being caused by both angels and demons being on Earth, fighting and scheming and destroying how many human lives. Think of how much damage we have seen being caused by the dead not staying dead. And who knows what could end up happening if the Empty stays awake?

But Sam, without giving it a second's thought, immediately goes straight to "We can't allow this to happen!" No, sir, not even if Chuck is about to obliterate the entire world. So you go right ahead, Sam, and make those instantaneous snap decisions that will affect the lives of billions of human souls who have no say in the matter. Don't consider what the consequences might be, because you possess that shiny, pure "moral compass" and of course will be written to have been right in the end.

On a side note, I think the main reason I knew that this was Chuck's badly written version of Dean and not the real one, is that he pulled a gun on Sam to try to get past him. Seriously? Give me a break, Chuck! We all know that the actual Dean is not so wimpy and ineffectual as to need to wave a gun around, in order to get by someone lacking supernatural powers who is standing in the way of him doing what he thinks he must do. Dean would have gone straight through him and left him tossed aside on the floor, with bloodied nose and various bruises, because Sam might have been able to slow him down but would not have been able to stop him.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Bergamot

[Terese]

9 hours ago, KayCordingly said:

This is why I keep thinking that there HAS to be more to Chuck than meets the eye. There's no way he can be such a one-dimensional villain... can there?

There are mustache twirling histrionic and egotistical supervillains that pop up all the time in comic books and cartoons. They are cheesy, and over the top, saying hateful scary things to frighten, well, children mostly.

Usually, adult stories have well-developed, nuanced characters with motivations, and they almost never blow raspberries.

I keep thinking Chuck has an agenda. Since everyone appears able to spy on everyone else(Billie able to leave her domain and spy on other worlds, eg) while planting ideas and manipulating, I would like to believe it is all an act; that no malice could be that obvious. The Empty seemed clueless. Maybe it will fall for the act. (I love Meg and Rachel Miner. Absolutely no insult intended.) But, I loved Chuck and far prefer the God who stepped aside believing in his most cherished children. So, I will hope that the writers, who seem to like dull stories punctuated with big surprises, will have yet another big surprise that restores Chuck.

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

 

These are exactly the arguments that Dean -- the real Dean -- would have made. But because this was Chuck's poorly written version of Dean, all he was allowed to say is that he wanted off the hamster wheel. (Because Dean, of course, has ALWAYS put what is best for himself first, am I right? Sure he has.)

When I heard what Billie had planned, I was on Team Billie too. Think of the untold human suffering that we have witnessed being caused by both angels and demons being on Earth, fighting and scheming and destroying how many human lives. Think of how much damage we have seen being caused by the dead not staying dead. And who knows what could end up happening if the Empty stays awake?

But Sam, without giving it a second's thought, immediately goes straight to "We can't allow this to happen!" No, sir, not even if Chuck is about to obliterate the entire world. So you go right ahead, Sam, and make those instantaneous snap decisions that will affect the lives of billions of human souls who have no say in the matter. Don't consider what the consequences might be, because you possess that shiny, pure "moral compass" and of course will be written to have been right in the end.

On a side note, I think the main reason I knew that this was Chuck's badly written version of Dean and not the real one, is that he pulled a gun on Sam to try to get past him. Seriously? Give me a break, Chuck! We all know that the actual Dean is not so wimpy and ineffectual as to need to wave a gun around, in order to get by someone lacking supernatural powers who is standing in the way of him doing what he thinks he must do. Dean would have gone straight through him and left him tossed aside on the floor, with bloodied nose and various bruises, because Sam might have been able to slow him down but would not have been able to stop him.

I suspected something when we started getting extremely soapy... Cas saying "Dean we need to talk" and the BMOs got super trophy. Plus that motw Saw mash-up was so very bad with the lesson... you were always saving people and not thinking about your family.???!!!  OMG.

This episode everything was so over the top heaVy handed... but I agree... make the sacrifice and save the world. If it were Sam Dean would be finding the other way all season but it isn't. The Jack ship sailed when he killed Mary.

It is typical Sam to think of himself and his needs.... however....

I think the line you missed is that Sam said he will be reset and gone too. Was Sam just throwing that in or dies Sam know that Death's reset means he is gone too. 

The Enpty said the only reason that you are still here is that you are needed. Or something like that... Is Sam only alive because Death knew she needed him?

Is the ending Dean alone because they are successful.

Absolutely no surprises that Death wants to restore order.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[trudysmom]

I haven't watched this episode, and based on what I've read here I'll do my blood pressure a favor and give it a pass.  I think I'm done with the show. Maybe later I can revisit it but for now there's enough crap in real life that I don't need my escapism to be just as depressing and soul crushing.

[Smad]

My canon problem this episode (aside from the already discussed ones) was actually the Dean/Amara connection discussion. I like that it was something that just was. But what I don't get is why Amara thinks God can write HER. When she asks Chuck 'you didn't write that?' I was royally confused. I get that God can write anything he had a hand in creating but it never involved beings outside of his 'jurisdiction'. The Entity and Amara are outside of creation so Chuck's writing has no influence on them, seeing as he had nothing to do with creating them. He could have written in the connection from Dean's end in order to guide the story in the way he wanted but he couldn't have had any way to force a connection on Amara.

I know it's been said a million times since 14x20 but this whole 'God as a writer' storyline is so effing stupid. Because there are no rules whatsoever except randomness that makes no sense.

[ahrtee]

5 hours ago, Terese said:

There are mustache twirling histrionic and egotistical supervillains that pop up all the time in comic books and cartoons. They are cheesy, and over the top, saying hateful scary things to frighten, well, children mostly.

Usually, adult stories have well-developed, nuanced characters with motivations, and they almost never blow raspberries.

I keep thinking Chuck has an agenda. Since everyone appears able to spy on everyone else(Billie able to leave her domain and spy on other worlds, eg) while planting ideas and manipulating, I would like to believe it is all an act; that no malice could be that obvious. The Empty seemed clueless. Maybe it will fall for the act. (I love Meg and Rachel Miner. Absolutely no insult intended.) But, I loved Chuck and far prefer the God who stepped aside believing in his most cherished children. So, I will hope that the writers, who seem to like dull stories punctuated with big surprises, will have yet another big surprise that restores Chuck.

Taking my comment to the Directors thread.

[Myrelle]

59 minutes ago, Smad said:

I know it's been said a million times since 14x20 but this whole 'God as a writer' storyline is so effing stupid. Because there are no rules whatsoever except randomness that makes no sense

True, it has been said a million times but this one really highlighted the flaws in a way that no episode before had.

Just one example-so did Chuck only write one character(Dean) in this particular little drama of his or did he write cAsstiel's OTT ass-kissing of Sam and Sam's perfect "moral compass", too? And did he write Sam's hypocrisy over the secret-keeping in there also?

And what about Jackie-poo, the ultimate woobie cinnamon roll? 

And what about those ridiculous story cards?-Chuck or Meredith Glynn?

Are we supposed to think that Chuck only wrote "the ending" and the Dean character in this "story"?

Bah. To me, the entire episode all just felt like a built-in excuse for the real writer and showrunners to flip the lead characters personalities to achieve "their" desired end for this one and for the entire series, for that matter.

Anything else I have to say should go in a different thread when I have more time. 

[Bergamot]

5 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I think the line you missed is that Sam said he will be reset and gone too. Was Sam just throwing that in or dies Sam know that Death's reset means he is gone too. 

I didn't miss what Sam said, but I am not sure what it is supposed to mean. Does he mean that he will die because he is one of those who died but didn't stay dead? Okay, but that of course would apply equally to Dean and not just to Sam (unless the show is going to somehow pretend to forget all the hundreds of times Dean died. But hey, par for the course.) So was Sam just trying to make Dean feel guilty about him dying again, in order to make him go along with him?  But like I said, I don't know what the point was there.

I also noticed that Sam said something about how EVERYONE they saved would die. Except how would that apply to all the many people (most of them, actually) that he and Dean saved BEFORE they died?  The Empty said Billie would return people to their graves, which is not the same thing. Unless Billie is going to make sure that everyone who was ever in any danger at all of dying, for any reason whatsoever, will have to die? Isn't that like, every human being? Either the Empty said something we didn't hear, or Sam is making a lot of unwarranted assumptions.

Overall most of Sam's objections to Billie made no sense to me.  (Of course I do understand why he wouldn't want to lose Eileen.) I mean, the show built it into this huge moment, with all these *deep emotions* and Sam crying and Dean in tears and "Would you trade me?!" and "My entire life, you've protected me!" -- basically trying to push all the BM buttons --  and I was just thinking, "What are you talking about?" But then, in a lot of different ways, the whole thing didn't work for me, and I disliked the episode too much to spend any more time trying to make sense of it.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Bergamot

[ahrtee]

17 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

basically trying to push all the BM buttons

Sorry...for me, that seemed less like "boy melodrama" and more like the literal (and original) meaning of BM.

[Smad]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

I didn't miss what Sam said, but I am not sure what it is supposed to mean. Does he mean that he will die because he is one of those who died but didn't stay dead? Okay, but that of course would apply equally to Dean and not just to Sam (unless the show is going to somehow pretend to forget all the hundreds of times Dean died. But hey, par for the course.) So was Sam just trying to make Dean feel guilty about him dying again, in order to make him go along with him?  But like I said, I don't know what the point was there.

I also noticed that Sam said something about how EVERYONE they saved would die. Except how would that apply to all the many people (most of them, actually) that he and Dean saved BEFORE they died?  The Empty said Billie would return people to their graves, which is not the same thing. Unless Billie is going to make sure that everyone who was ever in any danger at all of dying, for any reason whatsoever, will have to die? Isn't that like, every human being? Either the Empty said something we didn't hear, or Sam is making a lot of unwarranted assumptions.

Overall most of Sam's objections to Billie made no sense to me.  (Of course I do understand why he wouldn't want to lose Eileen.) I mean, the show built it into this huge moment, with all these *deep emotions* and Sam crying and Dean in tears and "Would you trade me?!" and "My entire life, you've protected me!" -- basically trying to push all the BM buttons --  and I was just thinking, "What are you talking about?" But then, in a lot of different ways, the whole thing didn't work for me, and I disliked the episode too much to spend any more time trying to make sense of it.

I find the Billie plan nonsensical. If you want to right the natural order, that doesn't start with anything Sam or Dean have done. It means starting way before then. It's like Final Destination, Butterfly Effect or even this show's 'not sink the Titanic' episode. You have to start all the way back when everything supernatural started to upset the natural order. It means it starts when angels began to mess with the planet or when Lucifer was cast down and hell was created. After all, how many demon deals for example have been made since Lucifer was cast down and created hell? Talk about massive interference in the natural order. It makes no sense that somehow you need to start with anything Sam or Dean did. Because hey lets remember, John and Mary only got together because heaven send a cupid their way, they were forced into this relationship by supernatural means and not free will. Sam&Dean would have never been born otherwise. That's messing with the natural order big time. People being alive who should be dead is just as bad as people being alive who were never supposed to be born (Sam, Dean). Fixing the natural order doesn't start with the boys, it starts when natural order was circumvented by supernatural elements. And that began waaaaaaaaaaay before Sam and Dean even existed.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Smad

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, Smad said:

I find the Billie plan nonsensical. If you want to right the natural order, that doesn't start with anything Sam or Dean have done. It means starting way before then. It's like Final Destination, Butterfly Effect or even this show's 'not sink the Titanic' episode. You have to start all the way back when everything supernatural started to upset the natural order. It means it starts when angels began to mess with the planet or when Lucifer was cast down and hell was created. After all, how many demon deals for example have been made since Lucifer was cast down and created hell? Talk about massive interference in the natural order. It makes no sense that somehow you need to start with anything Sam or Dean did. Because hey lets remember, John and Mary only got together because heaven send a cupid their way, they were forced into this relationship by supernatural means and not free will. Sam&Dean would have never been born otherwise. That's messing with the natural order big time. People being alive who should be dead is just as bad as people being alive who were never supposed to be born (Sam, Dean). Fixing the natural order doesn't start with the boys, it starts when natural order was circumvented by supernatural elements. And that began waaaaaaaaaaay before Sam and Dean even existed.

I thought it might mean that he died in an alternate universe and that meant something and/or he died after Advanced Thanatology and by then Billie knew the future and knew she needed them so she herself made provisions to keep them alive in order to stop Chuck. Once her plans are done she is setting everything right.For all we know dean is also a dead man walking from his head injury from the gorgon or from the MoL poison. 

I think the AU in particular is her sticking point as is most everything revolving around the Winchesters who have had preferential treatment in regards to resurrections.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I didn't miss what Sam said, but I am not sure what it is supposed to mean. Does he mean that he will die because he is one of those who died but didn't stay dead? Okay, but that of course would apply equally to Dean and not just to Sam (unless the show is going to somehow pretend to forget all the hundreds of times Dean died. But hey, par for the course.) So was Sam just trying to make Dean feel guilty about him dying again, in order to make him go along with him?  But like I said, I don't know what the point was there.

I also noticed that Sam said something about how EVERYONE they saved would die. Except how would that apply to all the many people (most of them, actually) that he and Dean saved BEFORE they died?  The Empty said Billie would return people to their graves, which is not the same thing. Unless Billie is going to make sure that everyone who was ever in any danger at all of dying, for any reason whatsoever, will have to die? Isn't that like, every human being? Either the Empty said something we didn't hear, or Sam is making a lot of unwarranted assumptions.

Overall most of Sam's objections to Billie made no sense to me.  (Of course I do understand why he wouldn't want to lose Eileen.) I mean, the show built it into this huge moment, with all these *deep emotions* and Sam crying and Dean in tears and "Would you trade me?!" and "My entire life, you've protected me!" -- basically trying to push all the BM buttons --  and I was just thinking, "What are you talking about?" But then, in a lot of different ways, the whole thing didn't work for me, and I disliked the episode too much to spend any more time trying to make sense of it.

I think he meant the AU people. And Eileen.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Sorry...for me, that seemed less like "boy melodrama" and more like the literal (and original) meaning of BM.

I hate self righteous Sam.

Look... Dean being angry... he can be that way. His mom dies horribly at the hand of someone he considered family. The family he has.. well it has always kind of sucked. Now he finds out that everything he has suffered, everything he has sacrificed to make the world better for others was just entertainment for Chuck. 

The dude can be angry. He wants to kill Chuck.

Dean is pivotal to both Chuck and Amara. I expect a mirror of s 11 in which he calmed her anger when she wanted to kill Chuck. Dean is front and center in this bad writing and all.

Chuck as the big bad isn't the problem... the problem is that he's killing the show and the characters with bad writing. The problem is Andeew Badd and the Dabbling Hacks.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Smad]

30 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I thought it might mean that he died in an alternate universe and that meant something and/or he died after Advanced Thanatology and by then Billie knew the future and knew she needed them so she herself made provisions to keep them alive in order to stop Chuck. Once her plans are done she is setting everything right.For all we know dean is also a dead man walking from his head injury from the gorgon or from the MoL poison. 

I think the AU in particular is her sticking point as is most everything revolving around the Winchesters who have had preferential treatment in regards to resurrections.

Alternate Universes don't matter. They are separate from each other. And they have their own rules and their own Death. Billie can't right anything in another universe, not as Death since she is bound to this one. Even if she became God, those AUs are gone from existence because current God erased them. The only place where she can restore the natural order, or whatever plan Chuck imprinted on her, is the prime universe. Mainly because it's the only universe left. And in order to fix the natural order in prime!verse, she would have to go all the way back to when the supernatural started interfering with the mortal plane. And that was long before Sam and Dean.

[Castiels Cat]

27 minutes ago, Smad said:

Alternate Universes don't matter. They are separate from each other. And they have their own rules and their own Death. Billie can't right anything in another universe, not as Death since she is bound to this one. Even if she became God, those AUs are gone from existence because current God erased them. The only place where she can restore the natural order, or whatever plan Chuck imprinted on her, is the prime universe. Mainly because it's the only universe left. And in order to fix the natural order in prime!verse, she would have to go all the way back to when the supernatural started interfering with the mortal plane. And that was long before Sam and Dean.

That doesn't make sense in my opinion.

In AT she specifically tells Dean that going to an AU is problematic. She has a special talk with him to stop him from doing it. She wants to undo whatever ripples happened because of that.

If this is not the issue then she deliberately has allowed a resurrection because she needed them to fix their mess. Once their ness is fixed she plans to out everything back the way it should be including them.

Since she first spoke to Dean in a 13, AT... That episode is key. Since she mentioned the AU. That is key. Dean dies in AT. Sam dies in the vampire caves. Both were miraculously resurrected. 

If that was Death pulling strings because she knew she needed them and she plans to put everything back as if they were dead all this time... 

This could be what Sam was referencing.

Of course if Dean died in that house Sam never made it go those caves. He died in that house too.

It's tied to the death book-library storyline which started in AT with her convo with Dean. And she told him in the previous episode to get his house in order. This is what you say to someone who does not have long to live.

[Smad]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

That doesn't make sense in my opinion.

In AT she specifically tells Dean that going to an AU is problematic. She has a special talk with him to stop him from doing it. She wants to undo whatever ripples happened because of that.

If this is not the issue then she deliberately has allowed a resurrection because she needed them to fix their mess. Once their ness is fixed she plans to out everything back the way it should be including them.

Since she first spoke to Dean in a 13, AT... That episode is key. Since she mentioned the AU. That is key. Dean dies in AT. Sam dies in the vampire caves. Both were miraculously resurrected. 

If that was Death pulling strings because she knew she needed them and she plans to put everything back as if they were dead all this time... 

This could be what Sam was referencing.

Of course if Dean died in that house Sam never made it go those caves. He died in that house too.

It's tied to the death book-library storyline which started in AT with her convo with Dean. And she told him in the previous episode to get his house in order. This is what you say to someone who does not have long to live.

First of all nothing she says matters. Whatever she thinks she has to do or wants to do is guided by God.

But the AUs don't freaking matter because they are GONE. It doesn't matter if prime Sam/Dean died there because whatever influence they had on the natural order there, doesn't matter. The AUs are GONE.

If restoring the natural order is her actual goal, then it doesn't start in S13 either. The first time the Winchester Brothers themselves messed with the natural order was SEASON 2, EPISODE 22 when Dean made a deal and Sam came back to life. Heck John made a deal in 2x01 that brought Dean back. But if her focus is S&D, then 2x22 is her starting point, NOT lame ass S13. Hell OG Death made a point about the brothers being an affront to the natural order way back in freaking SEASON 6. And the natural order didn't start getting thrown out of whack with Sam and Dean either, it happened long before they existed.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Smad

[Dobian]

Dean pulled a gun on Sam, and cocked it.  Okay...

[Castiels Cat]

23 hours ago, Smad said:

First of all nothing she says matters. Whatever she thinks she has to do or wants to do is guided by God.

But the AUs don't freaking matter because they are GONE. It doesn't matter if prime Sam/Dean died there because whatever influence they had on the natural order there, doesn't matter. The AUs are GONE.

If restoring the natural order is her actual goal, then it doesn't start in S13 either. The first time the Winchester Brothers themselves messed with the natural order was SEASON 2, EPISODE 22 when Dean made a deal and Sam came back to life. Heck John made a deal in 2x01 that brought Dean back. But if her focus is S&D, then 2x22 is her starting point, NOT lame ass S13. Hell OG Death made a point about the brothers being an affront to the natural order way back in freaking SEASON 6. And the natural order didn't start getting thrown out of whack with Sam and Dean either, it happened long before they existed.

The first time the brothers messed with the natural order was FAITH. Dean should have died but they found a way.

And John was dead until Mary made a deal.

Based on connected the dots of what Death has said and the emphasis on the books she seems concerned with more recent events. My guess is that Death herself intervened because she needed Sam or both Winchesters and she planned to undo her save once Chuck was eliminated. Death has been keeping Adam alive because she needed him.

[Terese]

On 10/31/2020 at 3:34 PM, Smad said:

Alternate Universes don't matter. They are separate from each other. And they have their own rules and their own Death. Billie can't right anything in another universe, not as Death since she is bound to this one. Even if she became God, those AUs are gone from existence because current God erased them. The only place where she can restore the natural order, or whatever plan Chuck imprinted on her, is the prime universe. Mainly because it's the only universe left. And in order to fix the natural order in prime!verse, she would have to go all the way back to when the supernatural started interfering with the mortal plane. And that was long before Sam and Dean.

The only complete take I have on this, unfortunately, is the meta one that began in Moriah. Dabb said, or Chuck said(I can't distinguish between the two) "Welcome to the End." He and his alter ego then said that there is a definitive ending, to bring it back is someone else's problem. Dabb/Chuck and Singer/Billie will either reset so Sam and Dean never mattered or obliterate the world/their world/Supernatural World so it never mattered. Team Free Will is formally positioned in this episode as the enemy of both design and natural order, while being degraded in the process. I suppose they could win in the end, as a kind of just kidding sort of twist. This episode was far too damaging, regardless.

[Smad]

52 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

The first time the brothers messed with the natural order was FAITH. Dean should have died but they found a way.

No they didn't. Because they had no idea what was going on. Unknowingly they messed with natural order but that person would have died anyway since someone was getting healed, sick Dean or no sick Dean.

54 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

And John was dead until Mary made a deal.

Apparently I need to say it again (twice wasn't good enough I guess). Natural order got messed up before Sam and Dean existed. But your focus and Billie's focus are the brothers, so I mentioned the first time the brothers knowingly messed with natural order. If you want to get really technical, neither John nor Mary should have been alive to either make a deal or be resurrected via a deal. We know the angels manipulated the entire bloodline to get Sam and Dean born. Think Mary and John were the first to have their free will taken from them to be forced to procreate?

57 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Based on connected the dots of what Death has said and the emphasis on the books she seems concerned with more recent events. My guess is that Death herself intervened because she needed Sam or both Winchesters and she planned to undo her save once Chuck was eliminated. Death has been keeping Adam alive because she needed him.

You can't mess with natural order on such a scale for your own personal gain (see Billie) and then complain that others do it too. And Billie thinks it's fine that she lets the people Sam and Dean have saved (Sam's death seems the reset point, doubt Dean would hunt if Sam was dead) live for a while longer while she gets what she wants. And then she offs them when she has achieved her goal? That's cruelty at it's finest. Wonderful new God right there, same as the old one.

An actual reset to natural order is not a pick and chose. The reset point = the first time that the supernatural/unnatural interfered in natural order. It all needs to be unmade. Either everything or nothing. Because it's a Butterfly Effect from that very first interference.

[Gbb]

On 10/30/2020 at 2:58 PM, KayCordingly said:

Why is Chuck mad at team Freewill if he's the one who orchestrated all of that in the first place? Weren't they just unknowingly following his own script for events? Shouldn't he be calling them good little soldiers or something?

He’s mad because they didn’t follow his script. His script was brother killing brother, and while Dean followed the script to a point (past the point of credulity, IMO) he didn’t play out the scene to the ending that Chuck had written. 

BTW, I really hope that wasn’t the end of Amara because if so, what horribly anticlimactic nothing that was. I hope I’ll be pleasantly surprised and she’s not gone gone. 

[SueB]

Chuck's speech to Amara has a lot of hints in it IMO (transcript from Supernaturalwiki):
 

Quote

Chuck: This is my ending.  My real ending.
Amara: You orchestrated this?
Chuck: What part of omniscient do you people not understand? So I can't read my Death book. So what? I control space and time. Just plant a few visions, goad Death a little... mess with a few outcomes. And... bada-bing. I mean... They think they can kill me?

1) 'So I can't read my Death book.' - well that makes "omniscient" an overstatement.  He is NOT, in fact, 'all-knowing'.  Because not only can he not read his Death book, he didn't know Dean would once again assert his free will and not kill Sam.  Free will is a weakness - still.  That Death can reap him is a weakness - still.  
2) '... plant a few visions' - Who had visions?  What am I forgetting?  What part of the story was not real?
3) '... goad Death a little' - What has Chuck done that has pissed Death off?  Is it taking out other universes? That seems real - Amara knows it and I don't think Chuck is planting visions in her head.  Is it all the crazy of S15 (demon resurrections, poofing Becky & family to ... somewhere, generally going completely off-script for many deaths?  Looking back, she really decided to make her move by bringing Jack back.  SHE directly engaged with her own agenda at that point.  So, was killing Jack directly in Moriah (after Dean had stopped) what pissed her off.  It's not like she cares if Jack dies (that's his fate in her plan) ... but that Chuck did it?  I ponder this because she's the key player here and if she has the ability to REAP Chuck, then who created her? 
4) '...mess with a few outcomes' - Which outcomes? It feels like Chuck didn't get his writing mojo back until after he met with Becky (My real ending.).  So... was it all the bad luck stuff?  Or is he going back to having Jack kill Mary?   It seems like his target in this story was Dean's anger... taking Dean to the edge.  Again.  Maybe making it clear that he was toying with them was the outcomes he means.  

 

And then there's other BIG reveals IMO:
 

Quote

Cosmic Entity: The Empty was supposed to be mine. Not even God held sway. But lies, sweet little lies.

. . .

Sam: Billie wants to take over?

Cosmic Entity: Become the new God. Classic narcissist, right? She's all tingly for the rules, the good old days.
Sam: What is that supposed to mean?

Cosmic Entity: Everyone back to where they belong, realities, dimensions, graves. What should be dead dies, angels off Earth, demons back to Hell and I go back to sleep. Or I'm supposed to. Except, again, trust issues. But you, you're Sam Winchester. You're in God's book.

. . .

Cosmic Entity: Where IS she?
Sam: Earth. You can't go there, can you?
Cosmic Entity: Only if I'm summoned. God's so protective of his little sand castles.

What I take from this exchange:
1) Chuck DOES have sway (as apparently is pissed about it).
2) "realities, dimensions, graves" - theoretically other universes (realities, dimensions...) come back? Which is a disconnect with AU Bobby and AU Charlie dying (per Sam) in the reset.  Was Sam lying or confused?
3) The Empty can be summoned to Earth.  Why mention it unless they intend to pull that lever?

And finally, Amara - who appears to be the wisest of them all - talks about balance.  I notice that NONE of the heavy hitters in play are completely all-powerful (Chuck can't read his Death book, Billy needs help killing God, the Entity can't come to Earth....).  Billy's solution does not provide balance.  Neither does Chuck's.  For the show to end properly, we're gonna need some balance (I think).

[ukgirl71]

Are the visions Chuck’s referring to the ‘alternate versions’ we saw courtesy of Sam, the opening of “Atomic Monster” being one example?

[Smad]

1 hour ago, ukgirl71 said:

Are the visions Chuck’s referring to the ‘alternate versions’ we saw courtesy of Sam, the opening of “Atomic Monster” being one example?

"Just plant a few visions, goad Death a little... mess with a few outcomes."

I think that entire part in Chuck's speech was about Death. Just goading Death a little doesn't make Death jump immediately to thinking 'I want to become God'. But messing with outcomes (aka natural order) definitely pisses her off, we know that. My guess is Billie's knowledge about what is happening in the wider multiverse came from visions and that's what Chuck means. Those would give Billie insight into how much Chuck is screwing around and show her what's in store for her plane unless she does something insanely drastic (like become God herself). By all rights Billie should have no knowledge of the multiverse (exception being the tear that Jack created to the AU) because Death is not multiversal (AU world had it's own Death which was enslaved by AU!Michael). So giving Billie a little more knowledge than she should have, via visions, makes sense.

Or giving Sam visions, knowing what he sees would get back to Billie also works. Or both got visions. It's not like we get a Billie POV so we don't know for sure.

 

Btw God having so much contempt for humanity and thinking them boring is such a hilarious 180 from 11x20 and the end of S11 in general. Does God have multiple personalities by any chance or something? We have watched this force present himself in human form since his first appearance. Why would you dress up as the thing you despise? God loves cats, why not dress up as one of those then instead? He dated several women and men, why would you date something you find so utterly boring? He loves taking long showers, the shower being a human invention. He loves to pig out on fast food wearing comfy clothes. Who invented those? This is the guy who was so taken with humanity's invention of music, he called it magic he himself could never have dreamed up. But sure, humans are boring. They are done I guess inventing things and evolution doesn't exist, unlike the past few thousand years.

[SueB]

It occurred to me this morning that ‘the quest’ Jack went on is nothing but a sham.  Billie is prepping him, but the actions are kinda random IMO.  Eating hearts of the Gregori.  Getting his soul out of Eden.  Powering up through Adam’s rib.  
 

We’ve had 3 trials before.  Seems like a Chuck thing.  But these are Billies instructions.  That’s the only thing that causes me to pause.  

For the sake of ‘what if’:  what if Chuck just made up 3 trials to help build momentum for Dean to allow Jack to die?  
- So, eating Gregori hearts - Jack does something sketchy that demonstrates his desperation to please.  And Chuck restores his body. Dean sees they have a possible solution to the nightmare he’s living  
- We get a story  about a Ruby/Sister Jo alliance.  The ‘vision’ of the garden is just and excuse to give Jack his soul back and express remorse regarding Mary.  Dean still doesn’t consider Jack family - he ‘others’ Jack. 
- Sketchy Adams Rib quest. Jack lights the fuse towards self-immolation.  Puts Dean in a  ‘too late to change the plan’ mode, feeling guilty about using Jack but desperate to kill Chuck to make all this worthwhile.  
 

In sum, if Billie wasn’t involved in setting the 3 trials, they seem Chuck-designed. 

[catrox14]

12 hours ago, Smad said:

Apparently I need to say it again (twice wasn't good enough I guess). Natural order got messed up before Sam and Dean existed. But your focus and Billie's focus are the brothers, so I mentioned the first time the brothers knowingly messed with natural order. If you want to get really technical, neither John nor Mary should have been alive to either make a deal or be resurrected via a deal. We know the angels manipulated the entire bloodline to get Sam and Dean born. Think Mary and John were the first to have their free will taken from them to be forced to procreate?

Even if that is the case, the show has made this about the effect Sam and Dean have on the natural order within the Supernatural world and that Death has always been irritated specifically with the Winchesters (mostly Dean) mucking that up. Death helped him, but the condition was breaking him free of being bound to Lucifer. He helped get Sam's soul back ,but with the condition that Dean be Death for a day, to understand why the natural order matters *and to help direct him to the issue with the souls. So to me, Billie seeking a do over vs Chuck destroying the Supernatural universe, isn't the worst plan IMO.

I think there is some wiggle room for Billie to want a reset that only goes back to before Jack is created. I mean Badd loves to rehash and repurpose plot points, i could see it akin to Song Remains the Same wherein if Jack is never born. She doesn't have to go all the way back to creation if his existence is the real issue.   Since she isn't OG Death, she might  only have the power to reset things to back to when  she became Death which is after Cas killed her and before Jack is born. 

On another note, why was Sam so willing to believe the Empty over Billie? The Empty has it's own agenda which is go back to sleep and keep it's realm asleep( which I really hope is just a dumb metaphor it being asleep keeps all the demons and angels asleep).  At this point I would think Sam would trust Billie more than the Empty, because Billie did give him that low key clue to help Sam save himself from the Darkness infection thing in s11.  The Empty only cares about keeping the demons and angels put away.  That is why the Empty might want Billie to be stopped, because if all the angels and demons are back in their realms, then it is out of a job.  Until something else the Winchesters and Cas do, that changes that.

Edited November 2, 2020 by catrox14
two reasons for Death helping Dean

[Aeryn13]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Even if that is the case, the show has made this about the effect Sam and Dean have on the natural order within the Supernatural world and that Death has always been irritated specifically with the Winchesters (mostly Dean) mucking that up. Death helped him, but the condition was breaking him free of being bound to Lucifer. He helped get Sam's soul back ,but with the condition that Dean be Death for a day, to understand why the natural order matters.  So to me, Billie seeking a do over vs Chuck destroying the Supernatural universe, isn't the worst plan IMO.

I think there is some wiggle room for Billie to want a reset that only goes back to before Jack is created. I mean Badd loves to rehash and repurpose plot points, i could see it akin to Song Remains the Same wherein if Jack is never born. She doesn't have to go all the way back to creation if his existence is the real issue.   Since she isn't OG Death, she might  only have the power to reset things to back to when  she became Death which is after Cas killed her and before Jack is born. 

On another note, why was Sam so willing to believe the Empty over Billie? The Empty has it's own agenda which is go back to sleep and keep it's realm asleep( which I really hope is just a dumb metaphor it being asleep keeps all the demons and angels asleep).  At this point I would think Sam would trust Billie more than the Empty, because Billie did give him that low key clue to help Sam save himself from the Darkness infection thing in s11.  The Empty only cares about keeping the demons and angels put away.  That is why the Empty might want Billie to be stopped, because if all the angels and demons are back in their realms, then it is out of a job.  Until something else the Winchesters and Cas do, that changes that.

Agreed. Billie's reset plan is unlikely to go back all the way. I kinda see it like Eve in Season 6 "somevof my children killed some of you, you hunters killed some of them, all good".

So, some demon deals and resurrections and unnatural means, okay, but the way it keeps piling up in super big ways over the show, especially now? That is just too much for her to let slide.

[Smad]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

For the sake of ‘what if’:  what if Chuck just made up 3 trials to help build momentum for Dean to allow Jack to die?  

If it's all Chuck (and it probably is), I think the reason and his goal for it all is rather simple. He wanted Amara or rather her power. At the beginning of the Season (writers get no credit for continuity it's just my head canon) when he went to Amara in Reno, she made 2 things clear to him.

1) I'm not going to help you. 2) You can't force my hand.

What did Chuck achieve in Unity? Amara helped him, willingly.

Putting everyone on a path to 'kill God' (including Billie) was guaranteed to get Amara involved because of the whole balance thing. Which in turn would make her cross paths with the brothers again but specifically Dean. But he had already insured that the story had Dean so riled up that he was going to sacrifice anything and anyone to get out from under Chuck. And then all he had to do was drop that bomb on Amara that Dean betrayed her.

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Even if that is the case, the show has made this about the effect Sam and Dean have on the natural order within the Supernatural world and that Death has always been irritated specifically with the Winchesters (mostly Dean) mucking that up. Death helped him, but the condition was breaking him free of being bound to Lucifer. He helped get Sam's soul back ,but with the condition that Dean be Death for a day, to understand why the natural order matters.  So to me, Billie seeking a do over vs Chuck destroying the Supernatural universe, isn't the worst plan IMO.

I have already mentioned that Death has been fed up with the brothers upsetting the natural order in the earlier Seasons and Death even told them so. So what are you objecting to? I said the same thing.

It's kind of funny that people believe Billie has any sort of free will here. Chuck made it clear she doesn't or at the very least it's extremely limited. She believes what he wants her to believe. And that includes the ridiculous notion of some Arch-Nephilim being able to take out God. And equally dumb is the idea of Death becoming God.

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

She doesn't have to go all the way back to creation if his existence is the real issue.   Since she isn't OG Death, she might  only have the power to reset things to back to when  she became Death which is after Cas killed her and before Jack is born.

She wants to become God. Realistically if she is, she can reset to wherever she wants (up to a point) because as God she would have that power. She just can't do a hard reset, as Chuck said you need both Light and Dark for that. So she can technically reset to the very beginning of supernatural influence on the natural order and then play it forward. The planet would look totally different I imagine but at least everything would be in order.

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That is why the Empty might want Billie to be stopped, because if all the angels and demons are back in their realms, then it is out of a job.  Until something else the Winchesters and Cas do, that changes that.

The Empty is never out of a 'job', it has existed before anything else ever did and it will still exist if everything else is gone. It's literally empty space. Which still exists even in our real world universe (look up empty voids). It was here before the universe started existing and it's still here now because the universe is ever expanding into where there is nothing.

The Empty should actually be on board with Billie's plan considering that her plan ensures neither heaven nor hell can touch the mortal plane. Lets all remember that Jack wouldn't exist if it wasn't for an arch-angel sleeping with a mortal. That would have never happened if heaven and hell were closed. So the Entity would have never been awakened in the first place.

[Bobcatkitten]

All I know for sure if they've made this so complicated that my head hurts. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Bobcatkitten said:

All I know for sure if they've made this so complicated that my head hurts. 

And not in the good way.

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Agreed. Billie's reset plan is unlikely to go back all the way. I kinda see it like Eve in Season 6 "somevof my children killed some of you, you hunters killed some of them, all good".

So, some demon deals and resurrections and unnatural means, okay, but the way it keeps piling up in super big ways over the show, especially now? That is just too much for her to let slide.

My question is: who created the "Natural Order" in the first place?  (Who's the one who decides who lives/dies, how and when?)  Is it the Fates (as seen in My Heart Will Go On), or Chuck (as the Head Writer, so to speak)?  And Death is just the one who is in charge of the reapers, to gather the souls after death, and send them on their way.  As we've seen, Death doesn't even decide where they go, just who and when (following orders, from the death books? )  

But IA that Death was fine with the status quo up to now (hunters and monsters killing each other, as Eve said, even though demon deals and monsters are definitely "supernatural" interference).  Even witches and spells that keep them alive for hundreds of years didn't seem to be a problem.  

So what's different now?  Chuck (and archangels) interfering *directly* with resurrections, for no reason other than they want the characters to remain in play.  No deals, no spells, just snap the fingers and they're back.  Azazel mentioned that demons can't resurrect unless a deal is made; but angels can.

Actually, Cas is the major beneficiary of that--how many times has he suddenly been resurrected, starting with, what, The Rapture?  Lucifer Rising? (well before Swan Song.)  Then, in Dark Side of the Moon, we learned that Sam and Dean have died multiple times and been sent back to earth (sans memory).  

I'd say if Billie is pissed off, it's Chuck who's been messing with her (or the Fates') rules, not the Winchesters--they're just the recipients (and have since learned various spells along the way to bring others back.)  So if there's a reset coming, it should be to Chuck's interference, and if Billie wants to become the new god, it's probably because she wants to stop that kind of interference so she can write her own books.  

But I have no faith that Dabb etal won't make everything into Chuck rewriting Death herself to make her into another villain who is working towards his preferred ending.  

And yes, my head hurts.  

[Smad]

44 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

All I know for sure if they've made this so complicated that my head hurts. 

That's only because it's now a 'free for all canon'. Since they literally invent (and writers/Chuck write) whatever is needed for the plot of an episode, canon has been completely obliterated from this show. Most human brains are wired to understand a story and that includes the rules set up within the story (especially in fantasy, sci-fi, supernatural media). However now that there are no rules in this show,  everyone has to make up the rules as it makes sense to them individually.

To avoid the headache, it's probably best to just go 'Chuck wrote it, and he sucks as a writer. Everything means nothing.'

[Casseiopeia]

I agree with Rob....AmUck...

[Gbb]

51 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I agree with Rob....AmUck...

 

I thought that was a very interesting phrasing on Rob's part when he said, "Dean doesn't like Chuck though, right now."

Edited November 2, 2020 by Gbb

[SueB]

Rob is so sweet.  And Emily is fun.  I’d pay cash for a long beautiful half a head of hair on Amuck.  

[Terese]

5 hours ago, Smad said:

That's only because it's now a 'free for all canon'. Since they literally invent (and writers/Chuck write) whatever is needed for the plot of an episode, canon has been completely obliterated from this show. Most human brains are wired to understand a story and that includes the rules set up within the story (especially in fantasy, sci-fi, supernatural media). However now that there are no rules in this show,  everyone has to make up the rules as it makes sense to them individually.

To avoid the headache, it's probably best to just go 'Chuck wrote it, and he sucks as a writer. Everything means nothing.'

You nailed it. This is the problem with retcon and inconsistencies, aside from the irritating gaslighting component. Additionally, the writers are self-aware, aware of other writers retcon and nconsistencies, and aware of the audience's confusion, frustration and doubt when they happen. There is always some cheap, implausible and convoluted explanation within the episode, next episode or by Dabb and company following the episode. A viewer ought to be able to get inside the story and speculate on reasonable direction, even twists and turns, because the foundations have been laid and things move organically. 

No characters seem to have believable motivation within these absurd retcons that isn't cheesy or glib. 

Since it all comes down a poor, self-aware writing, I feel that viewer is the butt of the joke. As Dabb has positioned himself as God, he is knowingly the bad writer making fun of himself and laughing at the audience who still watches knowing they are being lied to and laughed at. This is the legacy? 

[KayCordingly]

On 10/30/2020 at 7:20 PM, Castiels Cat said:

I think Dean was supposed to kill Sam and he didn't... it was supposed to play out until it faIled so Chuck could enjoy Dean's pain.

 

Oh ok, that does make sense.

[Castiels Cat]

19 hours ago, Gbb said:

 

I thought that was a very interesting phrasing on Rob's part when he said, "Dean doesn't like Chuck though, right now."

So... Amara takes control and grabs Dean and kisses him and it's magic.

[Castiels Cat]

20 hours ago, ahrtee said:

My question is: who created the "Natural Order" in the first place?  (Who's the one who decides who lives/dies, how and when?)  Is it the Fates (as seen in My Heart Will Go On), or Chuck (as the Head Writer, so to speak)?  And Death is just the one who is in charge of the reapers, to gather the souls after death, and send them on their way.  As we've seen, Death doesn't even decide where they go, just who and when (following orders, from the death books? )  

But IA that Death was fine with the status quo up to now (hunters and monsters killing each other, as Eve said, even though demon deals and monsters are definitely "supernatural" interference).  Even witches and spells that keep them alive for hundreds of years didn't seem to be a problem.  

So what's different now?  Chuck (and archangels) interfering *directly* with resurrections, for no reason other than they want the characters to remain in play.  No deals, no spells, just snap the fingers and they're back.  Azazel mentioned that demons can't resurrect unless a deal is made; but angels can.

Actually, Cas is the major beneficiary of that--how many times has he suddenly been resurrected, starting with, what, The Rapture?  Lucifer Rising? (well before Swan Song.)  Then, in Dark Side of the Moon, we learned that Sam and Dean have died multiple times and been sent back to earth (sans memory).  

I'd say if Billie is pissed off, it's Chuck who's been messing with her (or the Fates') rules, not the Winchesters--they're just the recipients (and have since learned various spells along the way to bring others back.)  So if there's a reset coming, it should be to Chuck's interference, and if Billie wants to become the new god, it's probably because she wants to stop that kind of interference so she can write her own books.  

But I have no faith that Dabb etal won't make everything into Chuck rewriting Death herself to make her into another villain who is working towards his preferred ending.  

And yes, my head hurts.  

Except she made a big point of telling Dean not to go to the AU... long speech...

And everything Sam mentions as being reset are AU issues. The AU hunters, Sam is resurrected over their by Lucifer powered bia AU angel grace and the Sam returns and resurrects Eileen.

My alternate theory is once they crossed into the AU the books changed and a future was set in motion and Billie knew it so she kept them alive because they had work to do and she planned to fix everything once that work was done. Just like Adam. This is more cumbersome.

21 hours ago, Smad said:

If it's all Chuck (and it probably is), I think the reason and his goal for it all is rather simple. He wanted Amara or rather her power. At the beginning of the Season (writers get no credit for continuity it's just my head canon) when he went to Amara in Reno, she made 2 things clear to him.

1) I'm not going to help you. 2) You can't force my hand.

What did Chuck achieve in Unity? Amara helped him, willingly.

Putting everyone on a path to 'kill God' (including Billie) was guaranteed to get Amara involved because of the whole balance thing. Which in turn would make her cross paths with the brothers again but specifically Dean. But he had already insured that the story had Dean so riled up that he was going to sacrifice anything and anyone to get out from under Chuck. And then all he had to do was drop that bomb on Amara that Dean betrayed her.

I have already mentioned that Death has been fed up with the brothers upsetting the natural order in the earlier Seasons and Death even told them so. So what are you objecting to? I said the same thing.

It's kind of funny that people believe Billie has any sort of free will here. Chuck made it clear she doesn't or at the very least it's extremely limited. She believes what he wants her to believe. And that includes the ridiculous notion of some Arch-Nephilim being able to take out God. And equally dumb is the idea of Death becoming God.

She wants to become God. Realistically if she is, she can reset to wherever she wants (up to a point) because as God she would have that power. She just can't do a hard reset, as Chuck said you need both Light and Dark for that. So she can technically reset to the very beginning of supernatural influence on the natural order and then play it forward. The planet would look totally different I imagine but at least everything would be in order.

The Empty is never out of a 'job', it has existed before anything else ever did and it will still exist if everything else is gone. It's literally empty space. Which still exists even in our real world universe (look up empty voids). It was here before the universe started existing and it's still here now because the universe is ever expanding into where there is nothing.

The Empty should actually be on board with Billie's plan considering that her plan ensures neither heaven nor hell can touch the mortal plane. Lets all remember that Jack wouldn't exist if it wasn't for an arch-angel sleeping with a mortal. That would have never happened if heaven and hell were closed. So the Entity would have never been awakened in the first place.

Good spec.

I cannot bother these days 

[Castiels Cat]

23 hours ago, SueB said:

It occurred to me this morning that ‘the quest’ Jack went on is nothing but a sham.  Billie is prepping him, but the actions are kinda random IMO.  Eating hearts of the Gregori.  Getting his soul out of Eden.  Powering up through Adam’s rib.  
 

We’ve had 3 trials before.  Seems like a Chuck thing.  But these are Billies instructions.  That’s the only thing that causes me to pause.  

For the sake of ‘what if’:  what if Chuck just made up 3 trials to help build momentum for Dean to allow Jack to die?  
- So, eating Gregori hearts - Jack does something sketchy that demonstrates his desperation to please.  And Chuck restores his body. Dean sees they have a possible solution to the nightmare he’s living  
- We get a story  about a Ruby/Sister Jo alliance.  The ‘vision’ of the garden is just and excuse to give Jack his soul back and express remorse regarding Mary.  Dean still doesn’t consider Jack family - he ‘others’ Jack. 
- Sketchy Adams Rib quest. Jack lights the fuse towards self-immolation.  Puts Dean in a  ‘too late to change the plan’ mode, feeling guilty about using Jack but desperate to kill Chuck to make all this worthwhile.  
 

In sum, if Billie wasn’t involved in setting the 3 trials, they seem Chuck-designed. 

I agree. Written by Chuck.

Get Jack to commit suicide with Dean's help and get Dean to kill Sam is icing per all those other brother vs brother scenarios. Then cue Dean's suffering for Chuck to enjoy.