Speculation for The Undoing

[formerlyfreedom]

Speculate here! No book talk, please.

[LoveLeigh]

Thanks for this speculation thread. I have not read the book so anything I post will not be book talk. 

I think this is connected to the kids. Elena's son Miguel looks guilty to me. I think something went down with him, possibly a fight with with Henry. Maybe some bullying? Elena kept quiet because she did not want to damage Miguel's scholarship? Maybe Henry killed Elena during a rage when she confronted him about the bullying. 

The kids just look like they know something. 

[Norma Desmond]

The kids definitely play a part here, especially Grace's kid.

 

I'm thinking Elena's baby is Hugh Grant's? Or is that too obvious.

 

 

I am totally unspoiled, haven't read the book.

[LoveLeigh]

I once read that when trying to unravel a mystery, always look for the character who is not necessary to the piece. Elena did not need to have another child in this story. Why did Miguel skip the bus and go to the studio? He wanted to see if his mother was really dead. He discovered the body; he did it. Maybe he hated that school. 

How does that tie in with Grace's family? Maybe Jonathan was having an affair with Elena and paid for the school. 

[BingeyKohan]

Hugh Grant's character doesn't seem to me to have the passion necessary to carry on an all-consuming affair with Elena, let alone to bash her face in (which appeared to be what happened to her body?) Also I don't understand why he would have gone out, murdered someone, come back home, and then left for his (supposed) trip - if he was going to cover his tracks it seems he would have wanted the murder to have appeared to happen while he was out of town. Although clearly he didn't do a good job establishing that he even left town if he wasn't even registered at a hotel there.

On the other hand, you have Donald Sutherland and Lily Rabe, who are both capable of very intense characterizations. Though Sutherland's character wouldn't do hands-on dirty work like killing Elena, especially in that fashion - he'd hire it out. I could see Lily Rabe coming out of nowhere. Was she the one into the Hockneys? Maybe she visited Elena under the guise of wanting to check out her art.

Maybe we will learn that Nicole Kidman's character is capable of very vivid daydreams - the scenes with Hugh Grant and his child patient, she couldn't have been 'remembering' those since she wouldn't have been there. Were those scenes meant to indicate she hoped that was what was happening? (vs the reality of her husband coming home crying about his dead patient) Maybe she imagined the gym locker room scene as a kind of role play which would explain its oddness. That could make it a bit like "Marcella" though (for those who watched that) - if she goes into fugue states occasionally and can't account for what happened.

[BrownBear2012]

There is something there between Elena and Nicole Kidman's character...the way Elena looked at her when she "first" saw Grace...then the way she dropped her blouse took her breast out and looked directly at Grace in a very seductive way was almost like a taunt...it was kind of creepy. Maybe Grace was having a fling with Elena and now Elena was sort of stalking her by joining the auction group at such a late date...perhaps Grace broke it off and Elena was trying to get under her skin. Grace may have arranged for Miguel to get a scholarship as way of paying her off to get out of the relationship...her father might have been the conduit for this. The way Grace was analyzing the gay couple's realtionship cheating issue sounded like a self diagnosis of why she might have been cheating with another woman...the thrill of it, the thrill of danger if her husband finds out...I'm just speculating and probably am totally wrong. As for Miguel...I don't think he would physically be able to kill his mother...it looked like she was brutally attacked by another adult. The violence of it points to someone who was able to overpower her. But I agree...the kids are major players in this mystery. I was also found it interesting that the detectives grilled Grace with the intensity that they did. There are a lot of parents at that school but they seemed to zero in on her...someone pointed them to Grace..who? why? 

Edited October 27, 2020 by BrownBear2012

[FemmyV]

Elana's obviously targeting Grace, the gym scene and then staring at her, at the party, was super stalky. Screams of sizing up her lover's wife. 

[formerlyfreedom]

Just a reminder that this is a SPOILER FREE topic (i.e. no discussion of the book). This is for speculation only. Thank you!

[peach]

On 10/26/2020 at 10:43 AM, BingeyKohan said:

Maybe we will learn that Nicole Kidman's character is capable of very vivid daydreams - the scenes with Hugh Grant and his child patient, she couldn't have been 'remembering' those since she wouldn't have been there. Were those scenes meant to indicate she hoped that was what was happening? (vs the reality of her husband coming home crying about his dead patient) Maybe she imagined the gym locker room scene as a kind of role play which would explain its oddness. That could make it a bit like "Marcella" though (for those who watched that) - if she goes into fugue states occasionally and can't account for what happened.

The opening credits feature little girl Grace, with Nicole actually singing Dream A Little Dream With Me.  Seems relevant.  And what does The Undoing mean? Is this Grace's undoing, of her mind?  Or of her family of origin?  I have not read or know a single thing about the book, but it's title is You Should Have Known, so that's also intriguing.  Who should have known what?  What is being undone?

Also, there is one incongruous quick shot of little Grace looking from behind a curtain or something with blood dripping down it.

Her dead dog story seemed weird and out of place.  And a lie.  Maybe that's also what she imagines about Johnathan

As for affairs, I think Johnathan could be having the affair with Elena, but so could Grace's dad.  He's the one paying all the money for the school, so maybe he's arranged the scholarship as well.   And whoever is having the affair isn't necessarily the murderer.

[LoveLeigh]

Well, now I think that Elena's husband did it. "It's always the husband." "The Undoing" is how that murder impacts everybody else and makes them all suspects.

[Chaos Theory]

If you want to be literal “The Undoing” could simply mean the undoing of Graces perception of her perfect life even if everyone in it is technically innocent of the murder.  The little acts of deception.  The death of a thousand cuts that Grace has ignored or been blind to even though her occupation has been seeing it in other people/in other marriage.   The grand irony in that.   The undoing of her own marriage.   Her own life.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Chaos Theory

[Bace33]

Watch Grace’s Father, he seems to look at Hugh Grant strangely and may be involved in murder plot. 

[BingeyKohan]

Totally stealing this spec from a commenter on Reddit who pointed out it feels important the camera stayed on Grace rather than showing the reaction of her assistant when she asked him to call Jonathan's hospital to check in on him. When she saw the administrator later (who acted super freaked out by her) he said he wasn't aware of the assistant calling. For all we know the assistant's facial expression screamed "Oh, honey - we have been over this a thousand times, you know Jonathan doesn't work there anymore so there is no point in me calling. But ok, sure, I'll 'call.'" But that would mean she almost has a form of dementia. 

[Bulldog]

4 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

Totally stealing this spec from a commenter on Reddit who pointed out it feels important the camera stayed on Grace rather than showing the reaction of her assistant when she asked him to call Jonathan's hospital to check in on him. When she saw the administrator later (who acted super freaked out by her) he said he wasn't aware of the assistant calling. For all we know the assistant's facial expression screamed "Oh, honey - we have been over this a thousand times, you know Jonathan doesn't work there anymore so there is no point in me calling. But ok, sure, I'll 'call.'" But that would mean she almost h

I hadn't thought about that at all.  You may be right. 

Now, I'm wondering if Grace's entire practice might exist only in her mind.  Nobody else has been around during her interactions with the assistant or any of her patients.  As others have pointed out, the gay couple are clearly stand-ins of her and Jonathan's relationship.    

 

[Quita]

On 11/2/2020 at 11:17 PM, Bace33 said:

Watch Grace’s Father, he seems to look at Hugh Grant strangely and may be involved in murder plot. 

I noticed that at the auction. There was no friendly, warm greeting between the two. I thought maybe Grace's father didn't care for Jonathan but it may be more than that.

[LoveLeigh]

Much was divulged in episode 2. Jonathan had the motive. So did Grace and so did Elena's husband. Was it Grace's father? The list of suspects is not that long and the reveal will just close the case but not be a surprise. Unless Grace did it herself and blacked out. 

[Norma Desmond]

After watching episode 3, I wonder if Grace does things she doesn't remember after. The opening credits seem to hold some clues - something happened in her childhood. Maybe she witnessed a crime? Her father killing her mother? It also shows a dark figure staring at baby Grace - or is it her own dark side?

Edited November 9, 2020 by Norma Desmond

[Mellowyellow]

Note: Have watched ep 3

I wonder if the friend and Jonathan are in this together and have cooked up some plan to frame Grace. 

Grace seems to be completely batty and totally out of it but I don't think she did it. Jonathan and the friend seem a lot shadier and smarter than they are letting on. I'm now speculating they had an affair after Elena (she did represent him after all) and have cooked this up to get rid of Elena and Grace.

What I can't explain is how the father is involved in all this.

[BingeyKohan]

Let's assume Jonathan didn't do it - then what did he intend to be doing the time he was supposed to be away in Cleveland? he claims (I think?) to have found Elena's body, so he knew she'd been murdered - is THAT the only reason he left his phone at home, or would he have left his phone at home according to the original plan to pretend to go to Cleveland? Maybe some of that will eventually make sense but if you take the murder out of the equation then his plan must have been to either take a trip with Elena or to take a trip with another woman (maybe Sylvia?) and the murder fouled that up but he still had to pretend to be away because he'd already said he would be. 

All that to say there is still a lot that Grace doesn't seem to have questioned very closely. Hopefully the new lawyer will start pushing some of these issues next episode.

[Norma Desmond]

3 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I wonder if the friend and Jonathan are in this together and have cooked up some plan to frame Grace. 

Maybe they are gaslighting her.

[LilaFowler]

On another board, someone mentioned an old Harrison Ford movie called Presumed Innocent. Ford plays a lawyer whose female colleague (and sometime lover) was murdered. No murder weapon (a hammer) was found. Ford is accused of the murder but acquitted. He is at home in his shed, finds the murder weapon covered in blood and hair, his wife confesses to him. She knew about his affair. She tried to leave enough clues so that he (Ford) would be aware that she was the killer but never intended or expected him to be accused of the crime.

If Grace really didn't know that Jonathan had been fired, she may have planned the killing when she knew he'd be out of town. I've complained about Kidman's breathy, ridiculous over-acting in another thread -- that may be deliberate bad acting on the character's part.

I'm also not ruling out the son. He gives me the creeps. I think Donald Sutherland's character is a red herring.

Edited November 11, 2020 by LilaFowler

[LoveLeigh]

On 11/9/2020 at 7:30 AM, Mellowyellow said:

I wonder if the friend and Jonathan are in this together and have cooked up some plan to frame Grace. 

I actually came back to this thread to post that theory. 

[LilaFowler]

Posted in reg thread.

Edited November 17, 2020 by LilaFowler

[LoveLeigh]

Every day I change my speculation. I think it was either Miguel or Sylvia. Grace is too obvious. 

[LoveLeigh]

I think I saw who did it...

Spoiler

In the HBO official teaser, you can see Grace running on a bridge. She appears to be trying to save somebody from jumping. It looks like it could be Henry. So maybe Grace was in that neighborhood on the night of the murder to pick up Henry who did it and called her. She i protecting her son. But if that is correct, why was she acting so afraid of Jonathan? Maybe she was just reacting to finding out he had the affair with Elena after Henry killed her? 

 

[LilaFowler]

3 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

I think I saw who did it...

  Hide contents

In the HBO official teaser, you can see Grace running on a bridge. She appears to be trying to save somebody from jumping. It looks like it could be Henry. So maybe Grace was in that neighborhood on the night of the murder to pick up Henry who did it and called her. She i protecting her son. But if that is correct, why was she acting so afraid of Jonathan? Maybe she was just reacting to finding out he had the affair with Elena after Henry killed her? 

 

There's another quick shot in the trailer

Spoiler

 

of Grace with her forehead pressed against Henry's. It's nighttime, outside and she tells him, "I'll fix this."

I really hope he's not the killer... he's probably going to get away with it, then.

 

 

[LilaFowler]

More from the trailer:
 

Spoiler

 

Helicopters: Grace and Franklin appear to be boarding one, there's a shot of Grace inside one, there is a shot of the helicopter flying over cop SUVs and finally, there is a shot of Jonathan on an old bridge with the helicopter flying behind him.

The way Grace is running in front of cops (who have weapons drawn)  -- I think Henry is there. I think Jonathan and Henry end up in the country for some reason. The cops figure out Henry is the killer and go after him. Grace and Franklin try to get there first.

I'm guessing in the next 1.5 episodes, Jonathan will be found not guilty of the murder, or the charges will be dismissed for some reason. Then perhaps the murder weapon is finally found, leading them to the real killer. At the same time, Jonathan and Henry take a father-son trip upstate and then we get the bridge scene.

 

 

[Biga112]

Grace’s father did it,

why? Because Elena is his daughter from an affair he had a few years back, he never recognized Elena as his and so the girl went a bit mad with time. She had nothing, no money, no status, no dad. And so she started fantasizing on Grace, on what could her life could have been if she was her. She wanted to touch everything that was close to grace, she idolized her as a little sister would do to a big sister, she would do anything to be or to ressemble Grace in any aspect of her life. But it went to the point where she seduced/ fell in love with jonathan, she wanted to have more and more, she then became pregnant with jonathan child. Elena was more in love with the idea of what she could have been if she was Grace, deeply she wasn’t a bad person she juste was a bit mentally ill and delusional.

Jonathan lost his job from this affair, and went to ask for 500k to Grace’s father lying and saying that him and his wife were having trouble financially. Grace’s father whose nothing but a fool and could see the lie, investigated the matter and  discovered that his long lost unwanted child Elena was going to destroy his reputation and family. 

So in episode 1, at the auction, he went to confront Elena, and tell her to disappear, she refuses and felt very bad, that was why she was crying in the toilets on that day. That’s when Elena and Grace’s father decided he would get rid of her as soon as possible, so he killed her/ had her killed on that night. 

evidence of this speculation: 

- Grace was very surprised with her father being present at the auction, he wasn’t supposed to be there and he fled rapidly with a vague excuse.
- In episode 4, Grace’s father admits that he commited adultery multiple times in the past. And in his interview with Noah school director he is very menacing and seems kind being able to do evil if something came to touch him or his family (the one he feels is legitimate)
- He has always hated jonathan (certainly because he comes from a commoner family/scandalous family) and wouldn’t have any problems with him being accused, as long as he could keep his and Grace s safety.

What does not match yet:

- Elena had the opportunity to have an affair because her son had a cancer and was to be treated by Jonathan- I personally think it is just a coincidence, the only one in the story, and that’s what triggered everything. Often in storytelling we like to give this « not planned element » because it actually helps with making it believable, life-like.

I believe that indeed Noah might have bullied Elena’s son at school, after all he is a rich kid raised by a narcissist father and whose family is very important at school financially so he feels this sense of  entitlement to be the boss at school especially to a commoner. 
I think it is important that Grace’s realize her son is growing to be an ass and that will help her make new beginnings at the end of the season because she will feel like she musts change her rich easy lifestyle to save the humanity in his son.

not sure how everything will undo (lol) next but this seems pretty believable to me!

[LoveLeigh]

I am thinking maybe none of them did it... it was a random sociopath. It could be similar to the Adrienne Shelly murder. 

[kendi]

My sister came up with this idea that Elena is Frank's daughter (offspring of one of his many affairs). Miguel would then be his grandson and the receiver of the "scholarship" that he probably sponsored. Elena has been blackmailing him and Jonathan having an affair and child with her (and in effect, hurting Grace) pushed Frank to have Elena murdered. Wild speculation!

[LilaFowler]

We haven't been told:

1. where or how Jonathon spent those three months while he was pretending to be at work
2. exactly what he spent $500k of Franklin's money on, even though he continued to drain his joint accounts with Grace
3. what his plans were while he was pretending to be in Cleveland at a fake conference
4. what he and Elena fought about the night of her murder

If the police work is to be believed (which is questionable), then the killer would appear on a surveillance video: Grace or Jonathan. The killer would also have the right access to hide the murder weapon: Grace, Jonathan, Henry, or Franklin. The killer's DNA would be at the scene of the crime: Fernando (footprint) or Jonathan.

The show is doing a lot to make us think it could be someone else but I think in the end it will be Jonathan. He is the one with means, motive, opportunity... maybe Elena wanted him to leave Grace and that's what they fought about. Maybe he refused and she informed him that she was going to reveal all his secrets, which would blow up his life. He kills her, the end. He didn't feel bad about his sister and he doesn't really feel bad about Elena either.

[Norma Desmond]

Maybe Jonathan, being the sociopath we now know he is, manipulated Henry into hiding the murder weapon for him.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Norma Desmond

[Ashforth]

It seems pretty apparent that Henry found and hid the murder weapon to protect his parent - but which one? He probably doesn't even know. 

[tabularasa]

Honestly I totally have no idea but I also believe the characters are not well developed.

[Roxie]

Here's my completely random, just-popped-into-my-head prediction:  I think Jonathan gets convicted of the murder, but afterwards we find out that the murderer is actually Franklin.

[Razzberry]

If it turns out to be some rando, I'll go postal.  I think there's like an unwritten rule about that.

[Black Knight]

I just binged all five episode, and I am so confused.

Sylvia knowing the prosecutor has to pay off somehow. And with that whole thing about the camera cutting away before Jonathan gave the name of his previous fling certainly makes me think it was her, since there really is no one else on the show it could be. But I don't see how Sylvia knowing the prosecutor matters to any of this - unless the prosecutor is willing to throw the case for Sylvia's sake?

Then there's Grace and Elena. We had one flashback already that showed them interacting more than we saw originally, there is still the issue of the painting, and the question of how well Grace knew Elena was just dropped. And is Grace just imagining certain moments or are we actually seeing them through her eyes because she was really there? The other thing I find odd is Grace being fine with her husband's lawyer making the jury suspicious of her. I know she tried to thread the needle with her son that it was really just that the lawyer showed that the police lied, but anyone reading about this or seeing it on TV is just going to think that Grace is a real suspect.

Henry. It could maybe be him - the DNA thing bothers me - but the theory my friends keep espousing is that if it is him, his father is covering for him, but Jonathan has been concerned about repeatedly telling Henry multiple times that he, Jonathan, didn't do it. If Henry did it and Jonathan knew, Jonathan wouldn't need to tell Henry any such thing. Unless he thinks Henry killed her and then blocked it out? But of everyone on the show, I feel less like it's Henry than I do anyone else, just because it was this episode's cliffhanger and this seems like the sort of show that will reveal its killer only in the finale. And I think at this point Jonathan thinks Grace did it. Also, is it just that casting really liked the actor who plays Henry, or is the fact he doesn't look like Grace or Jonathan a plot point? He looks more like Elena than either of his parents.

Jonathan. We heard several times from Sylvia that "it's always the fucking husband" (though maybe Sylvia had her own reasons) and we had the anvil of a speech from Grace in her patient's therapy about seeing what you want to see, basically, in your husband. I also feel like we spent a lot of time on the cheating patient of Grace's whose reasons for cheating don't seem to match Jonathan's unless there's more to the story of Grace and Jonathan. In any case, I feel like if Jonathan killed Elena, it was because she was sleeping with someone else. It couldn't have been because she potentially threatened to expose his cheating ways, because obviously killing her guaranteed he'd be exposed for all his lies. He wasn't even trying not to be, since he pulled that disappearing act which made him 100x more suspicious.

Then there's Franklin. Is the painting he's always staring at a clue? I tend to suspect him just because he's Donald Sutherland. Plus there was the sobbing breakdown he had where he said that if he had just told Grace about Jonathan asking for money, maybe "that woman" would still be alive, and he doesn't really seem the type to be upset by the death of a woman who was his daughter's husband's mistress.

Fernando is the only one who I feel fairly confident didn't do it (now watch it be him after all). He has also seemed concerned about some other secret of his wife's coming out in court, so there's something there too. Someone else she was sleeping with?

One last thing that I have no idea matters or not: In the scene where the auction committee meets, one of the women mentions they don't have anything from the art world to auction. Of course later we find out Elena is actually an artist, but she certainly doesn't speak up in the meeting about it, when she could have offered an art lesson or one of her pieces. Was that just to let us know her entire claim about wanting to help blah blah was bullshit so she could wave her baby in Grace's face, or does it tie in somehow?

Ugh. I'm kind of impressed by this show, because it's a small cast and therefore a small number of suspects, and yet the killer isn't obvious to me. The one thing I haven't seen anyone bring up yet is that the show has taken some pains to establish that Sylvia and Franklin are really friendly. Soooooo...my final guess before the finale is that Sylvia did it, just because the show has had Sylvia be connected to everyone in some way: She's Grace's friend, she was the one Jonathan asked to represent him and is almost certainly his previous affair, she's friendly with the prosecutor, she's super friendly with Franklin, she admired Elena's breasts quite a lot, and she's got a daughter while wearing no engagement or wedding ring and we've had no explanation about her personal life. I don't know how all this fits together, but I'm going with Sylvia.

[Similau]

At last.  One day left   ... before we finally find out who the murderer is. 

Since episode two, my main suspect has been Sylvia (Lily Rabe). 

Here’s my speculative scenario.  (I might go on about it for long, since i’m so excited to find out tomorrow; feel free to just browse!)

None of what has happened between episodes #2 and #5 has dissuaded me from calling Sylvia the likeliest culprit, by far.  I was already suspicious by the time of her confession to Grace. (She confessed that Jonathan had sought her advice on how to deal with the lawsuit brought against him at work, following the affair with Elena.)  The fact that Sylvia was withholding such momentous information  pretty much clinched it for me.   Why keep something like that from her best friend?  Granted, she came up with a series of convincing reasons  (lawyerly ethics, uncertainly about whether Grace already knew, etc.) ... which only led me to reason that she must be pretty good at being a lawyer.  

So ... is Sylvia (a) a caring friend to Grace or (b) a sly manipulator and information gatherer?  I'll take b, thank you very much.  This is a friend who offers and withholds information in a manner that does not entirely convince me of her sincerity.  The casual way in which she probes Grace with certain questions is just too slick for its own good.  

My thinking is that Sylvia went into a murderous rage, arising from the way in which Elena infiltrated and threatened the stability of Sylvia's own life ... a life that includes Sylvia's daughter.  It is not merely that Sylvia was the so-called “only other woman” with whom, according to Jonathan, he ever had sex extramaritally, once long ago (yeah right).  It's more that that:  Sylvia is also the mother of a 3rd Jonathan child. 

Have you paid heed to the several scenes on which she (while multi-tasking)  keeps on harshly pushing her daughter toward the goal of  being  the very best, etc.?   The way she treats her daughter may serve as a good indicator of what her real, truest personality is . Sylvia may very well be all about being in control (controlling) and fighting her way to the top.  

But, sorry, Sylvia:  in steps Elena, bringing chaos all around,  with yet one more Jonathan child to add to the equation, not to say anything of an agenda to make herself be the center of attention everywhere in Sylvia’s world.  

It’s likely that most of Elena’s seemingly passive-aggressive behavior was aimed at antagonizing Sylvia -- not Grace.  Jonathan’s lover-lawyer would have been the one whom Elena perceived as her real enemy, dating back to whatever transpired between the three of them before Jonathan was fired.  Perhaps Elena and Jonathan had come to an arrangement, legally prepared by Sylvia, in which support for Elena's children was contingent on keeping quiet, yet lately Elena was showing more and more signs of not caring to honor the deal? ...  Perhaps Jonathan has also been providing financial support for Sylvia's daughter, thereby making the whole situation all the more incestuous (and infuriating to Sylvia)? 

Anyway ...  When Sylvia saw Elena once more, this time at the school fundraiser, flaunting herself yet again, and overtly staring at her and Jonathan, she must have just about had it.  

Remember that, during this fundraiser, Grace comes across a crying Elena in the ladies’ room?  We could think of many plausible reasons for Elena’s tears, but I’m inclined to think that someone had just been verbally aggressive or threatening to her.  Since the likeliest place where the threat would have happened is right there, in that ladies' room, the aggressor would have to be female.  So, guess who.

Also:  why would Elena display such ambivalent attitude (more empathetic than antagonistic) toward Grace, if not because she ultimately felt sorry about the fact that, of all of the women being manipulated by Jonathan and/or Sylvia, Grace was the one most heavily deceived, and hence a co-victim ?  

(Elena might have been testing Grace at their first two meetings,  under the assumption that Grace was just like Sylvia.  But Grace passed both tests with flying colors.)

Elena could have been threatening to tell everything to Grace.  If so, the  sight of Grace, leaving with Elena on the elevator, may have heightened Sylvia’s alarm to the nth degree.  Perhaps by herself, perhaps in cahoots with Jonathan, Sylvia could have gone to Elena’s art studio to “reason” with her -- or to threaten her some more.  Things would have escalated from there, especially if Sylvia got whiff that Jonathan and Elena had  had sex right there on that night.  (Or Sylvia could have found them doing it.)   

Through not guilty of the murder itself, Jonathan would have felt obligated to cover for Sylvia, if only because she has a lot of incriminating knowledge about his lying self.  Maybe she told him that, if he were to be accused of the crime, she would find the way to get him off.  I am picturing her orchestrating some kind of legal ruse behind the scenes -- what with her ridiculous “hey girl hey” greeting  of the prosecutor, in court.  The thing that  I can’t figure out is whether she is doing the ruse in conjunction with  Jonathan (to help him out) or whether she is doing it on her own, with the intent of getting him convicted (out of either spite or self-preservation).   Could be both (i.e., double-timing). 

As for the question that keeps being asked in the episode threads -- Jonathan’s true whereabouts, at that time when he was supposedly at the conference in Cleveland.  Easy, at least in my mind: he was with Sylvia (or, at least, Sylvia helped him find a hiding place).  

The hammer:  it doesn’t worry  me much.  If it is  the murder weapon, sociopathic Jonathan  probably left it at his son’s room on the night of his “trip",  when he came to say goodbye.  Knowing how Henry idolizes him,  Jonathan wouldn’t even need to tell his son to cover for him; the sociopath would have rightfully calculated that Henry would desperately do his best to help his father hide any incriminating evidence. I won’t deny, though, that this finding of the hammer at Franklin’s apartment made me momentarily wonder if grandpa could be the murderer, after all.  (That, and also the mystery about this character which I will mention shortly.) But only momentarily.  I remain on the Sylvia train.

Any thoughts that Henry himself is the  murderer strike me as  implausible.  Same with the ongoing suspicions about Grace as the killer.  Granted, I wouldn’t totally mind, because I have grown to like her less and less with each episode, and I’m hoping for her to undergo some kind of wake-up call of  a punishment. Also to take into account is the bloody curtain in the opening credits, seemingly serving as a clue that something went terribly bad in her life as a child  --unless that redhead child is not her, after all, but Jonathan's baby sister.  But, no ...  The prospect of finding out that Grace did the crime while on an altered estate of mind stretches the realm of credulity to a degree than this particular series could not withstand ... or so I’d like to think! 

Finally, here are  two other miscellaneous tidbits that have kept me intrigued for a long while.  I’m preparing myself to be disappointed tomorrow,  because I suspect that nothing will come out of either:

1.  Have you noticed how every time that Franklin (Donald Sutherland) is at the art museum, he is invariably facing (or staring at) one particular piece of art?  The series’ director and cinematographer have heightened my curiosity by keeping the camera very far away from that painting.  Finally, during Franklin's last visit to date, we were allowed to take a closer look.   It’s a drawing of a harbor filled with sailboats. On the ground and on the water, yellow is the painting's most overpowering color.  The somewhat hazy sky has some pale blue, but more of a cloudy, white/yellow tint to  it.  I’ve  been wondering  what are we supposed to make out of these staring scenes.  Does the painting gives a clue as to the characters character, or even the crime?   I suppose that the combination of the hazy sky with all that yellow (conveying for me gold and riches on the one hand, rustiness and slow decay on the other) could be taken to symbolize the kind of  life within which characters such as this one have wrapped themselves up.  By the  way, have we even been told what the job of this (presumedly retired) man was?  Or are we to assume that he never had to work? 

 2.   As I already said, Sylvia has been my #1 suspect all along.  For two or three episodes, I kept a second suspect in my back pocket, though.  By now, however, I have basically given up on her, because she showed up for only one scene in an earlier episode (#2, I think).  The scene was at the schoolyard.  A mom, whom we had not seen before, asks Grace for advice on how to help her child cope with the news about the crime.  Grace’s circle of uppity moms clearly look down on this other mom, literally dismissing and ignoring her.  The scene is partially played for laughs, and partially as a display of the environment that surrounds Grace. So, that's all what could be to it.  Nevertheless,  it raised my “suspicion radar”  because the actress playing the mom is Annaleigh Ashford.  Why cast an already well-known, rising actress on such a small, seemingly inconsequential role?? ... Back then (episode #2), I presumed that Jonathan was  having sex with a lot of school moms, and that perhaps this mom,  jealous and enraged had been responsible for the murder ... I abandoned all these ideas once I got tired of waiting for   Annaleigh to show up again.  But, if the murder were to be a random person, or a near-random one, I'd have to propose her as the best candidate (well, certainly a better candidate than the school principal, or the maid at Franklin’s home)! 

Forgot to add another scenario that came to mind, very momentarily:  a secret lesbian affair between Elena and Sylvia.     But I think it would be ridiculous if the show were going to go with something as "out there" at  that. I'm mentioning it only because it’s yet another idea that popped in my mind.

   

Edited November 29, 2020 by Similau
Forgot to add - a jealous Sylvia in love with Elena?? Silly?

[Similau]

4 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Then there's Franklin. Is the painting he's always staring at a clue? I tend to suspect him just because he's Donald Sutherland. Plus there was the sobbing breakdown he had where he said that if he had just told Grace about Jonathan asking for money, maybe "that woman" would still be alive, and he doesn't really seem the type to be upset by the death of a woman who was his daughter's husband's mistress.

The one thing I haven't seen anyone bring up yet is that the show has taken some pains to establish that Sylvia and Franklin are really friendly. Soooooo...my final guess before the finale is that Sylvia did it, just because the show has had Sylvia be connected to everyone in some way: She's Grace's friend, she was the one Jonathan asked to represent him and is almost certainly his previous affair, she's friendly with the prosecutor, she's super friendly with Franklin, she admired Elena's breasts quite a lot, and she's got a daughter while wearing no engagement or wedding ring and we've had no explanation about her personal life. I don't know how all this fits together, but I'm going with Sylvia.

I just posted such a long message that I feel I should “shut up” for now, but I can’t help myself.  Having caught your message, there are many interesting points in it that have sent my imagination running yet again.  

Supposing that Sylvia is truly the murderer, as both you and I suspect, and supposing that I’m not wrong in my speculation that Jonathan is the father of Sylvia’s daughter ... then your comments above are making me wonder if Franklin (Donald) has known forever that Jonathan is the father of Sylvia’s child, and have been helping to support that child all along.  Perhaps Jonathan made a confession and (money) plea to him back when Sylvia was pregnant, and Franklin agreed to keep things secret just so that his daughter could remain blissfully unaware (and perhaps also out of his own sense of guilty, for having been such a cheater to his now dead wife).  What his comment to Grace would truly mean is that, had he 

The  sobbing:  at one point I interpreted that scene as an indication of “like father in-law, like son-in-law”: both cheaters, somewhat sociopathic and dangerous,  eager to charm and please everybody about them by pretending that they are regretful or contrite.  But I don’t know.  (In acting terms, the connection is that on their respective sobbing scenes,  both Franklin and Jonathan come across as fake -- as if they were bad actors over-trying to show remorse and grief)  But that all being said, I find Franklin sympathetic (even empathetic), with some very wise and prudent things to say (not at the principal’s office, though!), and hence the idea of his being another sociopath is just another theory that crossed my mind for a moment and got dismissed.    

Another interesting angle that you raise is how art seems to play its own role in the background of this story.  Because Elena was an artist and Franklin seems so into art, one could imagine some connection (and backdrop story) based on that. 

Now I’ll really stop for good!

 

[cardigirl]

I agree with you that there is more to Sylvia than we have been shown, given that she is popping up as Grace's best friend, she gives her bits of information that Grace is surprised by, and that she is surprisingly suspiciously thrust in front of the camera at odd times.  (re the courtroom scene).  IF it turns out to be Sylvia, then I feel the clues were placed almost blatantly in front of the viewer.  The wave in the courtroom was like "Hello, here I am!!! I did it and NO ONE SUSPECTS ME, HA HA!!"

Otherwise, she's the biggest red herring of all time. 

Also, if she was the "one other affair" that Jonathon admitted to, surely he would be wondering if she didn't do it, and mention it to his lawyer. 

Tonight's episode better be interesting.  🙂

 

[SoCal4Us]

Just want to say thank you to all speculators!  I'm finding this thread as compelling as (and maybe even more than) the actual show, which I hope won't disappoint tonight.

 

[Mari4456]

I’ve read this whole thread and lots of theories which I’m loving but I’m so fearful this will end up similar to The Night Off. Where we don’t really get closure as to who was the true killer.  I hope not because I will be so disappointed. We need true closure!

[Black Knight]

7 hours ago, Similau said:

Forgot to add another scenario that came to mind, very momentarily:  a secret lesbian affair between Elena and Sylvia.     But I think it would be ridiculous if the show were going to go with something as "out there" at  that. I'm mentioning it only because it’s yet another idea that popped in my mind.

I've thought about it too. There have been hints that Elena was sleeping with someone else too. Both she and Sylvia could be bisexual. All we know about Sylvia is that she's a single mother, and she certainly appreciated Elena's breasts. The only reason I say bisexual instead of lesbian for Sylvia is because of the likelihood of her being Jonathan's one-night stand. Although! With the point brought up earlier of casting Annaleigh Ashford for what has been an extremely brief part, maybe she'll be the one revealed to be Jonathan's one-night stand. That would certainly be a surprise twist since it seems pretty much all of us have assumed that it must be Sylvia since the show took pains not to give the name and she's (seemingly) the only woman around.

Which leads me to the other theory I've been ruminating on this morning: What if Franklin, who has told Grace (and viewers) what a constant horndog he was, is the one who is the father of Sylvia's daughter? Their friendliness has always raised my eyebrows a bit. (Grace and Sylvia are over a decade apart in age, so this is not an instance of her having been Grace's best friend since childhood or even college, which would have explained her interactions with Franklin in a more innocent way.) Or what if he's the other one who was sleeping with Elena? As you pointed out, they have an interest in art in common. Maybe the reason he's always looking at that one painting now is because they first met by looking at that painting at the same time. Hell, what if he's slept with both Sylvia and Elena? (Okay, that probably is too out-there for this show.)

I'm excited for tonight. There are so many questions I have that need answers!

[blixie]

I'm mid binge to finish this before the final airs in what an hour, so I wanna get his spec out there, before I surely spoil myself just to know if I'm right. First it's gotta be Lily Rabe, I'm not entirely sure about the motive, I thought it was possible she had something going on with Jonathan too, and the idea she had something going on with Elena, would also work, but I noticed how obsequious she is with Sutherland so NOW I think this is a Happy Birthday To Me situation in which one unacknowledged daughter got jack and the other got everything and so she hates Kidman and wants to fuck up her whole life, hence her probably framing up Jonathan and then with the violin case her son. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by blixie

[cardigirl]

Watching final episode now. Have big fears about where this is headed.