S15.E15: Gimme Shelter

[BabySpinach]

MATT COHEN DIRECTS - Castiel (Misha Collins) and Jack (Alexander Calvert) work a case involving members of a local church. Meanwhile, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) go off in search of Amara (guest star Emily Swallow). Matt Cohen directed the episode written by Davy Perez (#1515). Original airdate 10/15/2020

[gonzosgirrl]

So the big plan is for Dean Jack to be a bomb to take out Amara Chuck.

They aren't even trying anymore.

Oh, and it was extra special to watch Cas ask for Sam's approval to go on a case (at Dean's suggestion). Seriously, this show.

[Lemuria]

It's Dr. Sexy.  I always like Steve Bacic.

As for the rest...Really, Show?  That was bad.  And it was the same idiot bomb plan that didn't work last time because Amara could sense the bomb.  Now there's Amara and Chuck, who can both sense it.  

[ahrtee]

Oy.  

Fifteen minutes into the Jack 'n'Cas show and I left the room.  I suppose (based on above comments) that we eventually get back to the Winchesters.  I never thought anything would make watching the political forums look appealing.  

[gonzosgirrl]

All those who predicted Amara's words for Dean would be about Mary, you get a cookie. It was a very special lesson for him to accept that his memory of Mary was a fantasy and having her back would help him accept his real life. She also ret-conned the actual relationship between her and Chuck and told them OG Death just told them what they needed to hear.

And Cas's plot-convenient strength and healing powers were back in full force tonight.

Edited October 16, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

All those who predicted Amara's words for Dean would be about Mary, you get a cookie. It was a very special lesson for him to accept that his memory of Mary was a fantasy and having her back would help him accept his real life. She also ret-conned the actual relationship between her and Chuck and told them OG Death just told them what they needed to hear.

No cookies for you Amara. She actually said ice-queen Mary was "better". Haha, for whom. Not Dean. Or even Sam. Or the audience. She literally WAS a better character when she was dead.

So the "big secret" is Jackie poo's plan to die? I couldn't care less.

[Lemuria]

It's bothersome that they never mature Jack.  He may be "three" chronologically but he was born with an adult brain and (presumably) comprehension.  And adults can learn a lot in three years but Jack still wanders around looking as if he grasps and understands nothing.

And why do we need someone with supernatural power to carry this bomb, when Dean could carry it and set it off?  (Not that I think any longer that Jack is all that powerful:  wood nymphs aren't generally considered powerhouses of the supernatural world.  Not that these writers know how to actually have the show match the tell.

[Lemuria]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

No cookies for you Amara. She actually said ice-queen Mary was "better". Haha, for whom. Not Dean. Or even Sam. Or the audience. She literally WAS a better character when she was dead.

No lie about that.  The only think I liked about that scene was that Dean didn't just accept it and he didn't back down.  He told the Darkness off.

PS I did like the poor, bored crossroads demon.  They should have taken him along!  He would have been more interesting than either Cas or Jack

[Smad]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

She also ret-conned the actual relationship between her and Chuck and told them OG Death just told them what they needed to hear.

Since I don't watch the show, how did she ret-con the relationship between between herself and Chuck?

And how on Earth would Amara know anything about OG Death? Death wasn't around before she was locked up and OG Death was dead by the time she was released. Wth writers?

[Frost]

I vastly disliked the "real" Mary but I do agree with Amara that Dean was stuck with a mythical "Saint Mary" and in a lot of ways it was holding him in thrall to a past that never really existed.  Amara's explanation in this ep does seem ret-conned because I thought Amara was trying to do something nice for Dean in thanks for restoring her relationship with Chuck, not teaching him a life lesson.

The case of the week was actually pretty good.  It seemed like more of a throw back classic episode, even though the wrong pair was investigating! 

The Jack-as-bomb thing is pretty stupid.  Why a retread?

[Pondlass1]

Bored now.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Frost said:

I vastly disliked the "real" Mary but I do agree with Amara that Dean was stuck with a mythical "Saint Mary" and in a lot of ways it was holding him in thrall to a past that never really existed.

While Mary would always hold an important part in Dean's life, he had long since moved on for his motivations being Mary.  Also his life went to shit when he was 4 years old.  Why is it a bad thing that he had one happy memory to hold on too.

It sounds like Davy Perez heard Jensen's explanation about Dean needed to forgive Mary and tried to copy and paste it, and failed.

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, Smad said:

Since I don't watch the show, how did she ret-con the relationship between between herself and Chuck?

OG Death told Dean The Darkness came first, and Chuck was the little brother.  Amara said they were twins and separating them created the universe(s), aka the Big Bang.

So how long til they vilify Dean for 'lying' to Amara?

And I don't thing it was any favour to disabuse him of his memories of his mother. He was FOUR  for fucks sake. JOHN gave him the life and issues he has, not remembering his mother as a warm and loving person. 

ETA: Ha, great minds,  @ILoveReading

Edited October 16, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

So how long til they vilify Dean for 'lying' to Amara?

She deserves it for that Mary stunt. 

It's also silly that she wouldn't know. I mean Jackie-poo and his plan are really not hard to know for a supposed all-powerful being.

[tennisgurl]

So the bad guy this week was...the killer from Seven if he was an angsty teen? 

You get a retcon and you get a retcon and you and you and you! So what the original Death said about Chuck and Amara was wrong and he lied because...of reasons, and they have decided to make them twins who came into the universe because...reasons. I do like that Amara said that she brought Mary back to show Dean that his mother wasnt this perfect ideal mother figure who only existed to be wonderfully maternal and wonderful and to die tragically and start his hero's journey, as that was one of the more interesting things about Mary showing up, but I dont know about that stuff about her being better alive. At least flashback Mary seemed pretty nice, the more we got to know her and the more she was around, the more we saw that Mary kind of sucked. At least before, Dean had some memories of a mom who loved and cared for him, not the Mary who could barely be bothered to remember her sons existed and would rather hang out with any person in the multiverse other than them. 

Why does Jack sometimes act like an alien who just landed on Earth and has only now leaned English? Seriously, how the hell did we get to the point where our own heroes went from the stars of the show and some of the most important people in the universe, to the backup dancers to some super special superpowered cousin Oliver?

[BabySpinach]

At least Dean and Amara's history was acknowledged and built upon rather than conveniently forgotten. And it was pretty satisfying when Dean got to call bullshit on her weak-sauce reasons for bringing Mary back and call her "just another cosmic dick" ie. actually show some fire and defiance again. So I wouldn't necessarily take what Amara said at face value, since Dean so strongly rejected it and was framed in the right. Telling off omnipotent cosmic entities really is his thing, isn't it? Hehe. Too bad he had to lie to get her to help at the end. I'm sure that won't blow up in anyone's faces (literally!).

What the hell is going on with Misha's Cas voice? Has he been smoking a pack a day ever since his last appearance? He sounded like a parody of himself. Then I had to get the vomit bags when they kept harping on and on about his sweet, fluffy "son" Jackie Poo Sue. One unintentionally funny moment was when that girl called Jack hot. An argument can be made for cute, since that's his entire personality and demeanor anyway, but this character (not necessarily the actor) has all the raw sex appeal of a teletubbie.

The case was boring and took up way too much of the episode. By comparison, I was practically on the edge of my seat in anticipation of Amara's casual sit-down with the Winchesters. Maybe the main characters are the main characters for a reason?

And a person-bomb? Really? AGAIN? Oh noes, and it's Nougat Sue on the chopping block this time! Boo frickin' hoo. These writers are still stealing from Dean's storylines to gift-wrap them for another character, and it NEVER works. Just makes the copy-pasted story look even lamer by comparison. 

ETA: Also, it makes no sense that an archangel nephilim has to do all this magical quest bullshit to "power up" when regular human Dean was capable of holding a soul bomb that could kill Amara, no bells or whistles required. Especially since she and God are supposed to be twins now ie. equal in power. Well, any reason to swaddle Nougat Boy in cheap CGI light shows.

Edited October 16, 2020 by BabySpinach

[Smad]

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

OG Death told Dean The Darkness came first, and Chuck was the little brother.  Amara said they were twins and separating them created the universe(s), aka the Big Bang.

Mmm I have to say that the first part of the ret-con I actually like. It never made sense to me that one of them was older. But this ret-con I think goes back to the end of S11 which Dabb was in charge of. If she came first then God dying wouldn't harm her at all seeing as she existed before him and so is capable of existing whether he exists or not. Hence why her saying his ceasing to exist would also kill her made her no sense back in 11. If you frame them as twins and with the balance thing in mind, then her dying I guess could make sense.

However they really messed this up when in 15x02 God himself called Amara his big sis. That was THIS season...do these writers not talk to each other at all? Jesus.

But the second part is pure nonsense. S11 told us firmly that God could create without needing a Big Bang, just that Amara always smashed up what he created. And last I checked, it also firmly told us that God wanted to create the universe(s) and that's why he locked her away. They weren't separated and that caused a Big Bang, he literally locked her away so he could get to unfettered creation. OMG.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Smad

[SueB]

Well THAT was intense.   How on earth is this show on at 8pm with the fingers getting cut off and all.   *shudders*.   That was legit scary for me. 
 

And I really like that Dean went back in and talked to Amara.   That was even more intense than the fingers.   I loved that he just let it rip.  He’s been calm and managing for everyone else but when he had one of the two most power Entities in the Universe, he spoke from the heart.  WHY Mary?   He wanted to know if Amara was playing him like Chuck. And I think he believed her when she said she was trying to help.  

I don’t think Dean WILL hurt Amara.  I think he still plans to but in the end, I don’t see it.  She was absolutely straight with him.  He asked, she answered.  And she gets that he’s pissed.  And it had an impact on her.   
 

I was glad Jack and Cas got to work a case together.  I was surprised Jack confessed to Cas what’s going on.  I hope he is telling Dean the situation.  I thought Misha played Cas’ emotions well when he heard Jack is not supposed to survive.   

Im definitely rewatching in order to pull out all the bits   

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by SueB

[Katy M]

52 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

It's Dr. Sexy.  I always like Steve Bacic.

Thanks. I thought I'd seen him before.

I don't have too much to say.  I mainly came on here to say what nobody else will (because nobody will agree with this).  I liked the crossroads demon and think it would have been a funner epi if Jack and Cas had let him tag along.  He probably wouldn't even say something stupid like I graduated from CSI.  How do cops never check on these weirdos?

Anyway, the only other interesting thing is that apparently Rowena isn't allowing deals anymore because only the truly evil deserve to go to Hell.  Come on, Rowena, at least let the doomed get some enjoyment out of life first.

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

Well THAT was intense.   How on earth is this show on at 8pm with the fingers getting cut off and all.   *shudders*.   That was legit scary for me. 

I couldn't even watch that.  I have no idea how gruesome it was.  Every time she came on screen i averted my head until I heard dialogue telling me scene change.

 

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

I don’t think Dean WILL hurt Amara.  I think he still plans to but in the end, I don’t see it.  

Ditto.

 

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

I was glad Jack and Cas got to work a case together.  I was surprised Jack confessed to Cas what’s going on.  I hope he is telling Dean the situation.

I hope he tells him something else, just because I'd like a twist for once.

[tennisgurl]

The highlight of the episode for me was the bored crossroads demon who really just wants to make some deals damn it and is a bit annoyed at how Rowena is restructuring Hell. Can he show up again? I’m sure we’ll need a driver at some point.  

[Lemuria]

And why didn't Cas say, "That's the plan??!!  We tried that already and it didn't work.  And Billie knows that!  You're not doing that, Jack."

[ahrtee]

First of all:

DEAN: What about us? What about Earth?

CHUCK:  Earth will be fine.  It's got you...and Sam.

AMARA:  Dean, you gave me what I needed most. I want to do the same for you.

[Chuck and Amara hold hands and disintegrate into swirls of light and dark smoke. They travel upwards and disappear.]

Nothing about teaching him even one lesson, much less two.  She was grateful that he gave her her family back and wanted to do "the same" for him.   No ulterior motives there.

As for the rest, questions:

1.  What was the crossroads demon doing in the car taking the badguy/girl away?  Was he hauling her off to hell?  

2.  Why is Cas so surprised/upset that Jack will die if/when he kills the SuperTwins?  Didn't he already see (and accept) that when Dean took on the bomb?  I mean, I know this is his son (who "gave his life meaning" after, I guess, Dean took it away by making him doubt god) but geeze.  I guess the writers figure not even the most diehard shippers can make Jackstiel work, so he can have as profound a bond as he wants with Jack without starting the ship wars again.  

3. Whatever happened to Death being hands-off?  I know, it went the same way as the rest of canon.  

4.  How come it took 2 days for Baby to get from Kansas to Pennsylvania (I guess they didn't make it to NJ...I must have dozed off and missed that)?  

5.  Why were Cas and Jack in the beat-up pickup instead of his pimpmobile or one of the (many) other cars in the bunker that Mrs. Poppins (excuse me, Mrs. Butters) fixed and cleaned last week?  (I guess I missed that part, too.)  But how did that wreck make it to wherever before Sam and Dean got to NJ, and yet the boys beat them home by a fairly long time (judging by Dean's bathrobe).  

and finally, 

4. What the hell show was I watching?  I could tell it was a CW show with beautiful angsty teens watched over by beautiful adults (who don't interfere but feel guilty for not preventing the problems) but where was SPN in there?  In the 5 or 6 minutes that Sam and Dean sat either in the car or in the diner with Amara?  The only supernatural element (other than Amara) was the CRD, who had no reason to be there at all except for comic relief.  

 

[Myrelle]

Ugh.

Two down, 5 to go until Jensen Ackles is finally free.

I loved how pissed Dean got at Amara. What a pile of horse shit she tried to feed him.

That was all I liked. Best part of this pitiful and pathetic episode that should have been named Retcon and Redux World.

Everyone has already said it all for me.

It's just so sad that this show is going out in this awful manner.

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

1.  What was the crossroads demon doing in the car taking the badguy/girl away?  Was he hauling her off to hell?  

I didn't even notice that.  But, since he can't make deals maybe he just talks to people he knows ae going to Hell when they die and gives them pep talks.  No idea.

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

ut how did that wreck make it to wherever before Sam and Dean got to NJ, and yet the boys beat them home by a fairly long time (judging by Dean's bathrobe).  

They got there faster because they were only going to Missouri.  Sam and Dean got back faster because all they did was eat lunch with Amara while Jack and Cas worked a whole case.

[BoxManLocke]

I liked the Dean/Amara conversation because it was the first time in a long time I felt like a writer was trying.

 

Apart from that it's episode 15 and Dabb and co haven't realized it's way too late for Jack/Castiel B-plots, especially when they just involve a psycho teenager Saw fan. Also I have no idea why the fuck that demon was even there.

 

As I feared, they're going to try to wrap this thing in 3 episodes max (with a BuckLeming finale lmao) after stalling for most of the season. Never change I guess.

 

I'd like to say I'm looking forward to the real series finale, but Dabb's writing it so the potential of it being a trainwreck that completely ruins the last memory we have of this show is immense.

 

So huh... here's to five weeks left everyone.

 

 

[Bergamot]

7 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

Apart from that it's episode 15 and Dabb and co haven't realized it's way too late for Jack/Castiel B-plots, especially when they just involve a psycho teenager Saw fan. Also I have no idea why the fuck that demon was even there.

I think the appearance of the crossroads demon in the car was just a weak and unconvincing attempt to counter the pointlessness of the Jack/Castiel B-plot by adding a vague supernatural element to it, even though it doesn't make any sense.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Bergamot

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So the big plan is for Dean Jack to be a bomb to take out Amara Chuck.

They aren't even trying anymore.

Oh, and it was extra special to watch Cas ask for Sam's approval to go on a case (at Dean's suggestion). Seriously, this show.

I eye rolled hard myself. Only Jensen's acting saved this episode.

And just stop with the faux Crowley demons. It's not funny.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

All those who predicted Amara's words for Dean would be about Mary, you get a cookie. It was a very special lesson for him to accept that his memory of Mary was a fantasy and having her back would help him accept his real life. She also ret-conned the actual relationship between her and Chuck and told them OG Death just told them what they needed to hear.

And Cas's plot-convenient strength and healing powers were back in full force tonight.

What she said to him about Mary will be thrown back at her in regards to Chuck so I don't even think it was written with Dean in mind.

As for what Death said... I personally don't think any of the stories about the Darkness that were told were the truth necessarily at the time. She never was s 11 big bad. She was wronged and mad as hell and Chuck spent the entire season hiding from her. I found her to be sympathetic and him to be an unreliable narrator,  especially in consideration of how he manipulated Dean to be a human bomb.

I can totally see her describing what happened as inevitable from the process of them separating and Chuck petulantly blaming her for the destruction.  Look at the mental problems of his angels.

 

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

No lie about that.  The only think I liked about that scene was that Dean didn't just accept it and he didn't back down.  He told the Darkness off.

PS I did like the poor, bored crossroads demon.  They should have taken him along!  He would have been more interesting than either Cas or Jack

He drove the perp off in the police car so he did tag along unbeknownst to our Highway to Heaven crew which makes nonsense because Cas should have seen his thorny beauty and I believe Jack can also see demons. Cas  saw Belphagar earlier this season. 

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

And why didn't Cas say, "That's the plan??!!  We tried that already and it didn't work.  And Billie knows that!  You're not doing that, Jack."

This. I was waiting for this.

The truth is though Dean never exploded the bomb. He used his words and his humanity to tame Amara.

She also knew he had it on him.

[Pondlass1]

I just can’t take this seriously enough to even discuss.  I don’t even wanna talk about it.

There should be toe curling suspense.  We should be on the edge of our sofas sucking air, chewing nails, gnashing teeth. Fifteen fucking heart wrenching fantastic Winchester years are coming to a fucking end. Where’s our climaxing climax? 😱😱😱😱    Fasten seatbelts, the roller coaster is just about to apex and then drop....that kind of thing, 
Instead we get some boring dragged out time wasting stupid B Plot featuring dopey Cas, dopey Jack and a bunch of dopes we don’t even care about. Yeah .. chop off those damn fingers, See if we care!

Oh and.....Dean & Amara sit around, order perogies and a crossroads demon steals the episode... 

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

AMARA:  Dean, you gave me what I needed most. I want to do the same for you.

[Chuck and Amara hold hands and disintegrate into swirls of light and dark smoke. They travel upwards and disappear.]

Nothing about teaching him even one lesson, much less two.  She was grateful that he gave her her family back and wanted to do "the same" for him.   No ulterior motives there.

Shhh. We're not supposed to remember that!

Personally I think Dean handled the return of his mother quite impressively. He forgave her, he accepted her in spite of seeing what a limited, selfish person she really was, he loved her anyway, and he grieved for her when she died. He didn't need to learn any lesson; he already had mastered throughout his life from childhood how to do all these things with his family. The awful part of Amara's "gift", as he pointed out to her, was that it meant that Dean had to experience for a second time the central trauma of his life, when Mary died again. It was a terrible thing to do to him.

I feel as if what Amara said about Mary was really a message from the writers to the fans. Specifically, the fans who had criticized them for the poor job they did with Mary's character. "You just don't get it," they told us through Amara. "OUR Mary was much better than the original Mary! She was REAL!"

The thing is, though, I didn't object to the writing for Mary because I didn't want her to be a realistic, three-dimensional character -- I like that kind of character!  And I didn't object because she was so cold and selfish, because that could have been handled in an interesting way.  I objected because she was an awful person, but the writers simply would not admit it -- they kept insisting that she was just awesome and worthy of everyone's love. They are still trying to insist on this, as recently as in the last episode.

It just strikes me as funny that this is yet another thing that the writers are trying to ret-con. Hey guys, you CAN'T ret-con what my objection to Mary's character really was, because I'm a real person, not one of your characters. Sorry!

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, BoxManLocke said:

Apart from that it's episode 15 and Dabb and co haven't realized it's way too late for Jack/Castiel B-plots,

I hate to say this, but to the writers, Jack and Castiel were the A-plot.  They got the case, the storyline, the emotion, and the win.  Sam and Dean just got some pierogies and to kill some time.  

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

Mmm I have to say that the first part of the ret-con I actually like. It never made sense to me that one of them was older. But this ret-con I think goes back to the end of S11 which Dabb was in charge of. If she came first then God dying wouldn't harm her at all seeing as she existed before him and so is capable of existing whether he exists or not. Hence why her saying his ceasing to exist would also kill her made her no sense back in 11. If you frame them as twins and with the balance thing in mind, then her dying I guess could make sense.

However they really messed this up when in 15x02 God himself called Amara his big sis. That was THIS season...do these writers not talk to each other at all? Jesus.

But the second part is pure nonsense. S11 told us firmly that God could create without needing a Big Bang, just that Amara always smashed up what he created. And last I checked, it also firmly told us that God wanted to create the universe(s) and that's why he locked her away. They weren't separated and that caused a Big Bang, he literally locked her away so he could get to unfettered creation. OMG.

Chuck is an unreliable narrator. Same lucifer. Same Metatron. 

[Commando Cody]

Dr. Sexy returns to Supernatural.

That was really all I got out of this episode.

[ahrtee]

Just now, Commando Cody said:

Dr. Sexy returns to Supernatural.

That was really all I got out of this episode.

I kept expecting him to morph into someone else.  (I guess not Gabriel 😞)

[BoxManLocke]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

I hate to say this, but to the writers, Jack and Castiel were the A-plot.  They got the case, the storyline, the emotion, and the win.  Sam and Dean just got some pierogies and to kill some time.  

 

Totally. This was obviously an extreme case, but Dabb's obsession with making episodes with two different plots had a huge role in murdering the pacing of all his seasons.

So it's only fitting they end it this way.

 

Even if they had to include Jack and Castiel I don't see why they couldn't have gone to AC together, the four of them. Would have been a lot more fun and focused episode.

Edited October 16, 2020 by BoxManLocke

[Smad]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Chuck is an unreliable narrator. Same lucifer. Same Metatron. 

But Amara wasn't an unreliable narrator. She backed this up during her final confrontation with Chuck before they made up and went away. Hence the 'big bang' ret-con making no sense.

[Smad]

It's just so baffling that they all blindly accept Billy's plan as if she is on their side. Did they all forget she hates them? Did they lose their instincts completely, especially Dean? Have they learned nothing from their experience with God at all?

Amara was even laying it on thick when she said OG Death told them what they needed to hear. But they still don't question current Death after that?

Dean to Amara: 'You are just another cosmic dick.' Followed by an epic rant how these beings toy with humans.

Also Dean (and the rest of Team Idiots): 'We are however totally trusting this other cosmic being and doing everything they tell us to do and believe everything they say because...reasons.'

*sigh*

Stupid writers make for stupid characters.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Smad

[Terese]

I can't take the retcon and outright lies anymore. Dean prefaces a question regarding "teaching and learning," with respect to Amara bringing Mary back, that absolutely never happened. How can anything that transpired between the two in that following conversation be taken seriously when predicated on a lie? I'm tired of being lied to. It's bold-faced and insulting. I know what Amara said in season 11 and she didn't say that.

I am also sick and tired of the complete lack of originality, in plagiarizing passed stories and tweaking them to tell a lie. Or simply stealing them to retell a more shallow version. Soul bomb? We did that already. And what precisely would Sam and Dean not understand? Sam sacrificed himself to the pit to stop the Apocalypse. Dean, has sacrificed everything and himself repeatedly, , and was prepared to be the soul bomb in season 11. Sam and Dean don't understand sacrifice? The whole show for 15 years has been about their sacrifice. Seriously?

Finally, I am sick of Jack being in every damn scene even when he isn't. "Where's Jack? How's Jack? Is Jack ok?" 

I guess not really finally. The dialogue is atrocious. I used to enjoy Sam and Dean in the Impala. One needless exposition after another is all we get now. We know they think they have to kill lAmara. It's been said 50 times. Oh and boring completely unnecessary call to Cas to find out, "how's Jack."  

And what was that soap opera crap at the end? "Dean, I have to tell you sonething..."  

[Terese]

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Oy.  

Fifteen minutes into the Jack 'n'Cas show and I left the room.  I suppose (based on above comments) that we eventually get back to the Winchesters.  I never thought anything would make watching the political forums look appealing.  

I actually got up and cleaned the kitchen. My husband went in to help our daughter with homework that she didn't even need help with.it was like listening to a soap opera. I loved Cas, once upon a time. But, I can't listen to him drone on anymore. And they kept cutting away from Sam, Dean and Amara. Of course that lame conversation, and the second one prefaced on a lie, wasn't much better. 

[Terese]

6 hours ago, ahrtee said:

First of all:

DEAN: What about us? What about Earth?

CHUCK:  Earth will be fine.  It's got you...and Sam.

AMARA:  Dean, you gave me what I needed most. I want to do the same for you.

[Chuck and Amara hold hands and disintegrate into swirls of light and dark smoke. They travel upwards and disappear.]

Nothing about teaching him even one lesson, much less two.  She was grateful that he gave her her family back and wanted to do "the same" for him.   No ulterior motives there.

As for the rest, questions:

1.  What was the crossroads demon doing in the car taking the badguy/girl away?  Was he hauling her off to hell?  

2.  Why is Cas so surprised/upset that Jack will die if/when he kills the SuperTwins?  Didn't he already see (and accept) that when Dean took on the bomb?  I mean, I know this is his son (who "gave his life meaning" after, I guess, Dean took it away by making him doubt god) but geeze.  I guess the writers figure not even the most diehard shippers can make Jackstiel work, so he can have as profound a bond as he wants with Jack without starting the ship wars again.  

3. Whatever happened to Death being hands-off?  I know, it went the same way as the rest of canon.  

4.  How come it took 2 days for Baby to get from Kansas to Pennsylvania (I guess they didn't make it to NJ...I must have dozed off and missed that)?  

5.  Why were Cas and Jack in the beat-up pickup instead of his pimpmobile or one of the (many) other cars in the bunker that Mrs. Poppins (excuse me, Mrs. Butters) fixed and cleaned last week?  (I guess I missed that part, too.)  But how did that wreck make it to wherever before Sam and Dean got to NJ, and yet the boys beat them home by a fairly long time (judging by Dean's bathrobe).  

and finally, 

4. What the hell show was I watching?  I could tell it was a CW show with beautiful angsty teens watched over by beautiful adults (who don't interfere but feel guilty for not preventing the problems) but where was SPN in there?  In the 5 or 6 minutes that Sam and Dean sat either in the car or in the diner with Amara?  The only supernatural element (other than Amara) was the CRD, who had no reason to be there at all except for comic relief.  

 

Oh. I know. I was completely outraged by that bold-faced lie about teaching and learning. Infuriated me.

[Casseiopeia]

6 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I feel as if what Amara said about Mary was really a message from the writers to the fans. Specifically, the fans who had criticized them for the poor job they did with Mary's character. "You just don't get it," they told us through Amara. "OUR Mary was much better than the original Mary! She was REAL!"

 Dabb botched the whole Mary returns story line and now  he wants to blame the fans for it.  Sheesh...

Edited October 16, 2020 by Casseiopeia

[Smad]

I wonder if Cas or Jack were to tell Sam&Dean the truth about the plan, would one of these idiots finally be able to put 1 and 1 together and figure out it equals 2? Since we now know the plan is for Jack to be a bomb and not new God.

The equation is pretty easy. Billy's (+Empty) plan is to destroy matter (Chuck) and anti-matter (Amara) which means everything in existence gets wiped out and all that will be left is nothing (aka The Empty). And then it might be billions of years until new primordial beings show up. Heck maybe it never happens again.

And of course Jack doesn't want the brothers to know because Winchesters always keep secrets when the fate of the world is at stake. It's a staple of this show. Except this time all existence for all eternity is at stake. And of course neither Jack nor Cas have done the math when it comes to the implications of Billy's plan. I know I've asked this in my previous post but how stupid are Team Free Will?

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Terese said:

Oh. I know. I was completely outraged by that bold-faced lie about teaching and learning. Infuriated me.

Unless what Amara needed was a lesson and that's what Dean gave her.  Honestly, that conversation is one of the few things I wouldn't necessarily call a retcon in this trainwreck of a season.

55 minutes ago, Smad said:

And of course Jack doesn't want the brothers to know because Winchesters always keep secrets when the fate of the world is at stake. It's a staple of this show. Except this time all existence for all eternity is at stake. And of course neither Jack nor Cas have done the math when it comes to the implications of Billy's plan. I know I've asked this in my previous post but how stupid are Team Free Will?

Well, does it really matter if Chuck's going to destroy everything anyway?  Might as well get S&D to do it and get it over with faster.

[PAForrest]

Well, you all said it already, and very well. I ended up hate-texting with a couple friends last night - it was the only way to get through it. This was garbage. Just a jumbled mess of retcon, redux, and when Perez ran out of that, outright lifting from the worst of fandom tumblr. OMG people, I'm begging you, find another career. This pesky writing thing is just not for you. I think Safeway is still hiring.

The one and only truly fun part of this episode was random Zack the not-so-much Crossroads Demon. That guy was cute, funny - essentially he rocked this episode. Asstiel and Princess Jackie Poo Sue should have let him hang with them - might have made their mind-numbingly stupid booooooring part of the episode just a tad entertaining. Lead material these two just ain't.

Sure, it was fun to see Dr. Sexy again too - and I assumed he was the killer or had something to do with the killer. And he did, it was his 80-lb psycho daughter who somehow managed to do all this heavy lifting - like literally. I guess being a sociopath makes you unreasonably strong. Whatevs.

And of course we were already forewarned that Amara was going to kick Dean in the head again - because a lifetime of being relentlessly beaten down just isn't enough for the writers' least favorite character. We still got a handful of episodes to do it again, and again, and again. I mean, how dare the guy hang onto one single childhood fantasy that his mother might have loved him. Yes, we know now that she didn't, but is it really the biggest crime in the universe that Dean wanted to believe she did his whole life? And that whole BS word salad about why Mary was instead a heinous unloving black-hearted skank was literally lifted from Mary 2.0 apologia tumblr. No, they weren't trying at all here, and will never grow a pair between them and just admit they royally screwed up with this character.

What Dean should have outright asked is WHY Mary didn't love him.

That being said, the chemistry between Jensen and Emily was off the charts. If you ignore quite literally every word they were saying, this little scene was the one and only powerfully acted one in this hot garbage waste of an episode.

And once again another Dean plot is lifted and repurposed for another much lesser character. Seriously, the whole soul bomb thing wasn't that long ago - it was Dabb's soap opera ending to Carver's Darkness plot. We remember it - why doesn't anyone in the "writers" room?

And the worst part is, Jackie Poo Sue won't blow up. More's the pity.

[Smad]

50 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, does it really matter if Chuck's going to destroy everything anyway?  Might as well get S&D to do it and get it over with faster.

Chuck, or even Amara, could start over again even if God erases the one universe that's left now. People act as if the other universes were less significant just because we have been following this one for 15 Seasons. Plenty of Sams and Deans have been destroyed already. In a multiverse there might be some Earths of less importance (Kaia's Earth was basically devoid of life) but plenty were filled with billions of humans, including at least one where it was all just a TV show.

But the point I'm trying to make is, no Chuck and Amara means literally no more creation. Chuck could conceivably be stopped or neutralized without being killed which would keep this last universe alive. The plan however is to kill him (+Amara) which would mean the end for this last universe. Once that happened, nothingness will be all that there is. Possibly for eternity. Is that better than destroying this last universe but with the possibility alive that creation could be done again?

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, Smad said:

But Amara wasn't an unreliable narrator. She backed this up during her final confrontation with Chuck before they made up and went away. Hence the 'big bang' ret-con making no sense.

What did she say to him except that express anger over how she was treated. Because that was the storyline.

Twins... one is born before the other.

[Castiels Cat]

4 minutes ago, Smad said:

Chuck, or even Amara, could start over again even if God erases the one universe that's left now. People act as if the other universes were less significant just because we have been following this one for 15 Seasons. Plenty of Sams and Deans have been destroyed already. In a multiverse there might be some Earths of less importance (Kaia's Earth was basically devoid of life) but plenty were filled with billions of humans, including at least one where it was all just a TV show.

But the point I'm trying to make is, no Chuck and Amara means literally no more creation. Chuck could conceivably be stopped or neutralized without being killed which would keep this last universe alive. The plan however is to kill him (+Amara) which would mean the end for this last universe. Once that happened, nothingness will be all that there is. Possibly for eternity. Is that better than destroying this last universe but with the possibility alive that creation could be done again?

In s 11 one dies it is over. Both dies everything is fine. This is why they had to kill Anara when Chuck was dying. THIS IS WHY THE PLAN NOW HAD TO INCLUDE MILLING ANARA TOO. They went over it again last night however it would be easy to miss because the episode, the plan, Jack... sigh... meh...

[gonzosgirrl]

24 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

In s 11 one dies it is over. Both dies everything is fine. This is why they had to kill Anara when Chuck was dying. THIS IS WHY THE PLAN NOW HAD TO INCLUDE MILLING ANARA TOO. They went over it again last night however it would be easy to miss because the episode, the plan, Jack... sigh... meh...

But.. but... that was Chuck's writing that allowed the universe to be 'saved' by 'Dean' 'talking' to Amara. AKA anything that doesn't fit now can be poo-poohed with the stroke of a pen as 'bad writing'. Canon is meaningless. The whole 15 years is being rendered meaningless.