S05.E02: Lucifer! Lucifer! Lucifer!

[paulvdb]

Quote

After spending an eternity in hell, Lucifer returns to the land of the living - but there's something a little different about this handsome devil.

 

[Peace 47]

Stipulated at the start of my post that I do really enjoy seeing these characters back in this world, especially as an escape  from the pandemic.  However, I have some ambivalent thoughts on the episode.

Gratuitous nudity to the start of the episode, but I guess it’s progress that this show objectifies men instead of women, (question mark???? ....)  I mean, I know Tom Ellis has the perfect body, but I can’t imagine a more awkward way to shoehorn in the nudity.

Chloe taking issue (during her visit with Linda) with Lucifer not having said “I love you” to her was a little weird to me because he literally said in S4 that Eve wasn’t his first love, Chloe was.  Seems like a pretty clear declaration of love to me, but I guess not.

The Sharon Osborne cameo was weird and off-putting.

Dan has been a highlight of the season so far, even if the show wavers a lot on his characterization over seasons.  But for now he’s a delightful comic relief.

I liked Chloe’s hair a lot in this episode.  Shallow, but good hair needs to be recognized.

The Michael/ Maze angle feels like such a retread of Cain/Maze.  She’s hurt and betrayed and allying with the enemy.  Yawn.  Lesley-Anne Brandt is a good actress being underserved.

I’m pretty ambivalent about the Chloe/ Michael confrontation and the Amenadiel/ Michael confrontation.  I didn’t understand the point of Chloe playing Michael mid-episode with the coffee flirtation at the station if she was just going to call him out at the Penthouse later right away except to worry the audience that Chloe may end up having sex with the wrong person and pad out the episode.  Also so weird that Amenadiel and Chloe apparently did not coordinate on their confrontations, even though they happened consecutively.  Chloe had to ask Michael who he was; not sure why she didn’t consult with Amenadiel (or at least Linda again) when she suspected an imposter.  How did Chloe know that this unkillable being wasn’t going to attack her in the Penthouse?  And lastly, that “miracle” bomb that Michael dropped on Chloe was just too much for this episode.  Lucifer isn’t back from hell yet; there’s a freaky imposter, and now there’s the miracle beat floating around.  Feels very unfocused.

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by Peace 47

[AnimeMania]

All of the women on this show is super skinny, even the baby, where is the baby fat? 

Mazikeen can cover her breasts with two pieces of tape, didn't she just have a baby? The kid must be starving.

This is what Chloe wears to seduce Lucifer? I guess there won't be any fan service from her this season.

[Delphi]

I don't think she thought she had to seduce him.   But i also think it's very on brand for Chloe to dress relatively modestly.   She wants to be known for being a good cop and not that hot tub actress. 

[CheshireCat]

2 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Mazikeen can cover her breasts with two pieces of tape, didn't she just have a baby? The kid must be starving.

I'm assuming you mean the actress? Her child is three years old.

[AnimeMania]

5 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

2 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Mazikeen can cover her breasts with two pieces of tape, didn't she just have a baby? The kid must be starving.

I'm assuming you mean the actress? Her child is three years old.

I was referring to her kid. I am sure they filmed this quite a long time ago and the actress must have started dieting as soon as the child was born since she is skinnier during this series than she was when the show started.

[roamyn]

39 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

I was referring to her kid. I am sure they filmed this quite a long time ago and the actress must have started dieting as soon as the child was born since she is skinnier during this series than she was when the show started.

They started filming this in July of last year, so her son was 2 and most likely weaned.  And not all women breast feed.  It’s not our business how she conducts her family life.

i think Chloe flirted with Michael at the break station to get his guard down.  That’s cop training, and her going there alone is very much how she would act.  Yes, she could’ve checked w/Amenadiel first, that’s probably the only thing that I felt was off.  I hated the way Michael treated Dr. Linda, so I hope that doesn’t affect her relationship with Lucifer.

It seems like the Maze/Michael pairing is done, which can only be a good thing.

Now we know what Michael’s power is.  He brings out the fear.  He is the darkness to Lucifer’s light.  Quite literally.

[Delphi]

2 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I was referring to her kid. I am sure they filmed this quite a long time ago and the actress must have started dieting as soon as the child was born since she is skinnier during this series than she was when the show started.

Leslie probably did diet,  but she used to be very active on Instagram,  that girl was shredded before the pregnancy and started working at again the second she could.   I work like twenty hours a week and still can't make it to the gym. 

[StarBrand]

I believe the producers, when casting Tom Ellis, they originally were going to have him use an American accent, but ditched the idea because it didn't seem to work with the character. Seeing him use one with Micheal makes me appreciate that decision.  It's not that his accent is bad, it just seams to prove the showrunners instincts correct.

I was wondering how long it would take for the "will find out she's a miracle" bomp would drop, and of course Micheal was the one to deliver it. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by StarBrand

[thuganomics85]

Damn, they at least aren't dragging things out this season!  Not only do they already reveal that Fake Lucifer is actually Michael; his twin whose powers are fear-based instead of desire, and has a really, really big chip on his shoulder about his bro; but pretty much everyone figured it out that needed to, in order to prevent the secret from dragging out.  I liked how each of them figured it out in their own way that made sense for the character: Amenadiel knowing that Lucifer has a twin, so "Lucifer" lying was a big giveaway, Maze simply beating the shit out of Michael to the point that he confessed, and Chloe just recognizing enough signs to be suspicious, and then proving it by shooting him.  It's nice to see characters acting smart and not having these plot points get dragged out for several episodes, like most shows do.

But I'm guessing there will be some big fallouts and this is still far from over.  I have to imagine Michael isn't done yet, and both Amenadiel and Linda will have to be on guard, in case he does rat out Charlie.  And while I'm glad that Maze did come around near the end and tried to prevent Michael from seducing Chloe, I still have to imagine Chloe is going to feel hurt over how Maze still went along with Michael's scheme for as long as she did, with the intention of breaking Chloe's heart.

The case of the week was alright, but since they got recognizable faces like Coby Bell and Erin Cummings to play the control people, I easily figured out they were going to be involved.  Wish they had a way to have Cummings' character interact with Maze, so we could have gotten a mini-Spartacus reunion.  Honestly, I kind of wish the killer was Sharon Osborne, because that would have been hilariously random.

Seems like Linda might have had another child?  I wonder who that will be, because I have to think he or she will be making an appearance, if they are still alive.  And even then, death doesn't necessarily mean you can't show up on this show!

Heh, "Lucifer's" return certainly made Dan drop some of his "don't worry, be happy!" personality.

Looks like Lucifer might already be heading back to Earth soon!  Hopefully he'll find someone to keep an eye on Hell for him! 

[tennisgurl]

We are sure moving quickly! We know that fake Lucifer is actually his twin brother Michael, we know that he can do fear stuff, we know he is super bitter towards his brother Lucifer, and we especially know that the producers made a great choice about telling Tom Ellis not doing an American accent. That is just...disconcerting. 

Glad that everyone figured things out pretty quickly, and for reasons that make sense for them. Michael might be heading out now that he has been caught, but I dont think that this is the last we will see of him. He clearly has major issues with his twin, and is resentful that the rest of the heavenly host are all saying nice things about him for once (which is nice to hear!) so I dont think he has gone for good, and he will cause more problems. It must be weird when your family happens to be the heavenly host, its like a regular family with regular family problems, but because you so rarely die and have been around since the dawn of time, they just keep getting rehashed forever and ever and ever and...

Glad that Chloe caught on pretty quickly, Not Lucifer was acting so weird, and they keep saying how smart she is, but I am glad that she was playing him. You know, I get that Maze is pissed at Lucifer and hurt by Chloe not wanting to be her cop partner, but she has got to learn to deal with being mad at her friends or hurt by them (especially when its really not intentional) without blowing up all of her bridges. 

Dan is so confused by new Lucifer, poor guy, just focus on that Chakra! 

Case of the week was pretty good, but because I knew the two control people actors from others shows, I knew that they would turn out to be involved, the old "Hey Its That One Guy" rule. 

So Linda had another child? Is that an angsty backstory I hear? 

[DoctorAtomic]

Good call from me too on not dragging out Michael. I was rolling my eyes at first because it was so obvious he wasn't Lucifer age I can't stand when characters are dumb for plot. But it wasn't! I had a huge laugh when Chloe shot him. It's nice when tv surprises you. 

[roamyn]

17 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

We are sure moving quickly! We know that fake Lucifer is actually his twin brother Michael, we know that he can do fear stuff, we know he is super bitter towards his brother Lucifer, and we especially know that the producers made a great choice about telling Tom Ellis not doing an American accent. That is just...disconcerting. 

It wasn’t the producers, it was Ellis himself.

There’s a YouTube interview of him explaining how he came up with the accent, and that he practiced b4 the audition w/an American accent, but it didn’t seem right to him, and that the producers agreed.

[Gummo]

I have to call shenanigans on this episode's murder. I can accept a lot, but the murderer's boyfriend was a foot taller and 50 pounds heavier than she was - how the hell was she able to wear his spacesuit without tripping every step and falling all over herself. That took me out of the episode.

On the plus side --

I said it about season 4 and I'll say it again -- I love the return of smart, tough Chloe. If this was season 3, not only would Fox have insisted that they stretch out the Michael subplot for the whole damn season, they would have had Chloe spend the whole season giggling and wondering if "new" Lucifer was going to ask her  to the prom.

[Gwendolyn]

1 hour ago, Gummo said:

I said it about season 4 and I'll say it again -- I love the return of smart, tough Chloe. If this was season 3, not only would Fox have insisted that they stretch out the Michael subplot for the whole damn season

This! I was so relieved when Chloe announced she knew Michael was an imposter (and the clues she followed were there and logical, so it wasn't a gotcha for either character or viewers). Because it shows that Chloe being a detective isn't a fluke, she can follow the clues; and Michael with the lying, not drinking, not playing with double entendres/puns and actually taking the interrogation seriously couldn't get past his own nature to play Lucifer well.

As the characters are written (level of emotional maturity), I don't think either Chloe or Lucifer could've handled her NOT knowing it was Michael, and going all the way with the wrong brother. That would've a step too dark for this show. Even if it plays into the old trope, that true love can always tell the difference between twins when no one else can (like it took Amenadiel more than one interaction to clue in and he knew there was a twin, Chloe didn't).

Just started watching/binging this show a few weeks ago and it really makes the quality issues in season 3 stand out, but the payoff in the jump to Netflix in not only new viewers but for it to tighten up and really lean into the mythology and character development has been joy.

[BabySpinach]

I knew that Chloe was playing Michael as soon as she suddenly accepted the "new Lucifer" without question, but I was certain of it by the time she started openly seducing him. We've seen this woman try to flirt with someone she actually loves, and she is a complete awkward disaster at it. But here, she was waaaaay too smooth to be genuine. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 8/23/2020 at 12:18 PM, Gummo said:

I have to call shenanigans on this episode's murder. I can accept a lot, but the murderer's boyfriend was a foot taller and 50 pounds heavier than she was - how the hell was she able to wear his spacesuit without tripping every step and falling all over herself. That took me out of the episode.

And I thought it was ridiculous that he told her he loved her as much as ever, even though she had murdered an innocent woman because she feared she was having an affair with her.  That should change his view of her, I would hope.

Edited September 3, 2020 by ItCouldBeWorse

[KAOS Agent]

I'm curious about whether Chloe was testing Maze in this episode. She says she knew something was off about Lucifer from the start, was completely sure when Michael was making out with Maze and then after that point Chloe makes a point of telling Maze that she's going to have sex with Lucifer. Chloe has to figure that Maze knows it's not Lucifer, so is she trying to see whether Maze will come clean about things if she tells her she's going to do something that Maze knows would ultimately hurt Chloe?

[Anela]

On 9/7/2020 at 1:46 AM, KAOS Agent said:

I'm curious about whether Chloe was testing Maze in this episode. She says she knew something was off about Lucifer from the start, was completely sure when Michael was making out with Maze and then after that point Chloe makes a point of telling Maze that she's going to have sex with Lucifer. Chloe has to figure that Maze knows it's not Lucifer, so is she trying to see whether Maze will come clean about things if she tells her she's going to do something that Maze knows would ultimately hurt Chloe?

I wondered why she was so insensitive with the "he has to be desperate, if he's turning to YOU" unless it's just a given that that would never happen now. 

I'm glad they got that over with quickly. instead of dragging it out. How did Michael think that he could pull the wool over the eyes of people who really knew his brother? 

[sinkwriter]

I'm still watching all the episodes from this season, but I'm having a bit of trouble with the whole Michael plot. Don't get me wrong, I think Tom Ellis is awesome and I love how he differentiates between the characters with even the smallest of body language changes. But... I don't understand how Michael can be so nasty and plotting evil and getting away with it. Amenadiel did shady stuff in season 1 and lost his wings and powers because of it. How can Michael come to Earth, be messing around as he is and be so evil and not feel relatively immediate consequences from his "Father"? Angels may be dicks sometimes, but they're not supposed to be outright evil, are they? 

[Bruinsfan]

Haven't they established that Amenadiel's losses were due to his own self-image changing (much like Lucifer's), and not a judgement from God? Maybe Michael isn't self-aware enough to realize his scummy actions reflect poorly on his status as an archangel? Or maybe there just wasn't enough time for it to have an effect on him yet?

[Gwendolyn]

8 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

Haven't they established that Amenadiel's losses were due to his own self-image changing (much like Lucifer's), and not a judgement from God? Maybe Michael isn't self-aware enough to realize his scummy actions reflect poorly on his status as an archangel? Or maybe there just wasn't enough time for it to have an effect on him yet?

Michael's actions do not affect his powers or wings, because based on Amenadiel's theory angels self-actualize, therefore Luci's devil face/appearance is the result of him feeling like a monster originally for rebelling and returned after he killed a human for the first time. Even if he didn't acknowledge it consciously. Same for Amenadiel, he lost his wings because he felt he was a fallen angel for resurrecting a murderer and sending him after his brother.

Michael feels he's righteous and entitled, so as long as he feels no internal conflict or guilt, he's hunky dory: wings, power and strength in tact.

[sinkwriter]

2 hours ago, Gwendolyn said:

Michael feels he's righteous and entitled, so as long as he feels no internal conflict or guilt, he's hunky dory: wings, power and strength in tact.

I find something wrong with that, and hope their father is going to sort it out. (LOL)

While I like the idea that people end up in hell because it's of their own making (feeling responsibility for something they've done), I feel like that absolves those who may have done something really horrible but don't have the conscience to care about what they did. So, does that mean they don't end up in hell, or does God have a different plan for those people? Inquiring minds want to know. Because there are some people who better be in hell for what they've done...

[DoctorAtomic]

I guess it begs the question - where do they go then? 

[Gwendolyn]

6 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

I find something wrong with that, and hope their father is going to sort it out. (LOL)

One could see Dad punishing Michael by making him hell's warden and releasing Luci from the responsibility, but we'll have to see.

6 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

While I like the idea that people end up in hell because it's of their own making (feeling responsibility for something they've done), I feel like that absolves those who may have done something really horrible but don't have the conscience to care about what they did. So, does that mean they don't end up in hell, or does God have a different plan for those people? Inquiring minds want to know. Because there are some people who better be in hell for what they've done...

To me Lucifer's version of hell seems a bit like the idea of limbo, you're not ready for heaven, but the hell loop is your chance to learn and move on.

But there have been people listed in hell that we know felt no remorse (when torturing the criminal from ep 7, Maze lists serial killers who never expressed guilt), so wrong doers go to hell even if they don't feel guilty.  This is one of those things the writers have characters state with authority that when you start to look more closely kind of fall apart: like

Spoiler

Luci "choosing" to be physically vulnerable around Chloe, even if he doesn't know she's there (and could someone decide on how close she needed to be from him for this to kick in, because they have been all over the place).

Since this the season 5 ep 2 thread I put the above example "verified" in ep 5 just to be safe.

[VartanFan]

So, now two angels have decided to change their entire lives for Chloe...Chloe of the marker eyebrows?

 

[Emma9]

On 10/21/2020 at 12:57 PM, VartanFan said:

So, now two angels have decided to change their entire lives for Chloe

 

Don't forget Cain was about to do the same.