S02.E13: Mr. Jones

[jewel21]

Having realized that a deadly threat has infiltrated CrashCon, the busiest event of the year, Liz realizes that she can't save everyone she loves -- and with Max facing immediate danger, she and Isobel must make a heart-wrenching choice. Meanwhile, Michael finds himself caught up in the conflict between Jesse and Alex once again, even as Maria's life hangs in the balance elsewhere, and Kyle faces a moral dilemma when the enemy requires medical attention.

Airdate: 06/15/2020

[Katesgr811]

If this finale is disappointing...

[KittenPokerCheater]

Well that happened.

What a waste of a season, sadly. Everything important seemed to happen off-screen.

We don't even get Tripp/Jason next season.

[bettername2come]

Michael Trevino is really fantastic here, and I say that as someone who was usually indifferent to him on Vampire Diaries. I loved him coming in yelling at Liz and then hugging her. 

So Michael and Maria broke up. I feel like we barely even saw them together. Seriously, they barely break up and he's saying Alex is his future, but not yet. I hate this stupid love triangle.

Jason Behr and Kayla Ewell had some good chemistry in this one. 

Tyler Blackburn can sing. 

I - I don't know what to make of that ending. That beard on other Max looked terrible though. I did like that they each had to touch part of that symbol. I also liked that Max found out about Michael's tattoo.

Last week had more of a season finale urgency to it. This week was much more boring. 

[Katesgr811]

I knew that there would be another Max. The beard though? Also, that fight between Liz and Max was goodbye? I feel like that was not enough of a blow out for it to be over. 

[backhometome]

So Maria and Michael break up and she disappears?

Same with Kyle appearing for like 3 scenes?

These writers cannot write for the cast they have. Honestly. What is so hard about it.

Please for the love of god mean the triangle is done now. 

I really liked that Michael/Alex scene of them destroying the shed. Also when they find a body Alex with the "of course" Haha.

Echo breaking up was predictable. 

I hate plots that are centered on Max. So this twin/clone thing is really not interesting me. 

Lastly Tyler killed that song. 

[shapeshifter]

I LOL'd when they had the alien moonlight back-lighting Jason Behr's ears. Anyone else?

Agree the music number was the best part --of the series, IMO.

I did not appreciate destroying the shed. I would like to live there.
I didn't like destroying the alien "console" either.
And Max blowing up Liz's lab was just as wrong as her secretly experimenting on alien DNA, IMO. 

Did I miss Helena learning about Rosa's resurrection? Worst kept extraterrestrial secret ever.

 

 

[tennisgurl]

After all the drama last week, this week felt like a let down. It felt more like a coda than a finale, it was all rather ho hum, feeling more like a regular episode than the season finale. It was just really lacking in urgency. 

There were some good parts though, and the acting was good throughout as usual. Alex's song wasnt really to my taste but Tyler Blackburn has a great voice, and I really liked the scene between him and Kyle in the bar, when Alex told Kyle that he was the reason that he believed that people could change for the better, that was a really sweet scene and I continue to really like their friendship, even if we haven't gotten much of it lately. I also liked the scenes with Tripp in the 40s, and the scenes between the alien trio, especially Max seeing the tattoo that Michael got when he was gone, and the three of them opening the pod thing up together. I also liked the last scene with Rosa and Helena, I hope thats the last we see of Helena's terrible self. Rosa still loves her mom and got some closure, but also knows her mom sucks and doesent want her to be around, which I think is the best that Helena can ask for. I also really liked when Kyle came running in yelling at Liz, and then gave her a huge hug. I missed Kyle, why dont we have more Kyle? 

So Maria and Michael broke up, which isnt exactly surprising. To make things even weirder, Maria and Michael both seem to be totally aware that Alex and Michael are endgame, but Michael is just going to keep waiting to make another move, because they both read the script and they not only know who will end up with who, but that the writers will hold off from getting together together for awhile longer just to squeeze out more drama and keep teasing the shippers. We could have done all of this without any weird threesome tests guys, just saying. 

I love how Alex cant even pretend to be surprised at his insane ass family and their insane ass history. "Of course." So with Manes men, they either hate aliens, or fall head over heels in love with them? 

Its hard to really be on anyone's side completely in the Liz and Max debate. Max could have at least have grabbed some of her research and taken it with him or given her a call, and is basically an alien juice junkie, but Liz is going all mad scientist here and is using parts of her alien friends for science without really thinking of the consequences of it and what would happen if they were exposed. 

So is that Max's...dad? Clone? Ghost of terrible beards yet to come?

[Cristofle]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

And Max blowing up Liz's lab was just as wrong as her secretly experimenting on alien DNA, IMO. 

I don't think it's AS bad, especially because a lot of the alien DNA she was using was his, without his awareness or permission. He's always talked about his biggest fear being experimented on - that lab would have looked like his worst fear, being inflicted on him by her. I don't think she ever would have stopped without that fire, so I'm not that upset that any more alien experiments she will be doing MUST be via informed consent since Max burned down her chance to keep working without their consent. If the biological material she'd been using hadn't been largely his own, or if she'd ever gotten informed consent from Isobel or Michael, I'd feel differently about him burning it down, but generally I think he can do whatever he wants with his own DNA. 

I see more people are wondering if Beard!Max is Max's father or clone. Part of me leans towards father, since Max clearly remembers him. Definitely the coolest thing was that the Pod Squad each had to put their hands on one side of the symbol to break open the glass. 

I'm glad Maria dumped Michael, but I fear this is just another reason to make her irrelevant next season. 

[peachmangosteen]

UO apparently but Alex's song gave me so much second-hand embarrassment. SO bad lol.

Michael and Maria breaking up lol. I'd hope that meant they never share scenes together again but if so then Maria will literally never be in the show so.

I'm disappointed Steph didn't die lol. Kyle only gets to have scenes with her now and they are boring as hell. The 5 second Kyle/Alex scene was 100 times better and with more chem than any Steph/Kyle scene.

I don't know, I might be out. I hate Michael so much and he takes up so much screen time. In general, the only characters I truly care about and want to see are given nothing so I don't know if it's worth watching anymore.

[Cristofle]

2 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Michael and Maria breaking up lol. I'd hope that meant they never share scenes together again but if so then Maria will literally never be in the show so.

This really is the pickle. They've shown extremely little inclination to make Maria important outside of Michael. And what love interest will she get now? A lot of this show clearly is about romantic relationships. I think Maria deserves better than Michael but I have no faith she'll actually get better onscreen.

[jewel21]

21 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

UO apparently but Alex's song gave me so much second-hand embarrassment. SO bad lol.

I really liked it, lol. Probably the only part of the episode I'd want to re-watch, heh. 

[peachmangosteen]

Just now, jewel21 said:

I really liked it, lol. Probably the only part of the episode I'd want to re-watch, heh. 

I think Tyler sounded lovely but the lyrics seemed so bad. And just the fact that he was even singing and with Michael there and just the whole thing embarrassed the hell outta me. 

[R.paris]

Honestly Maria with no screen time, besides dumping Michael, was expected. They never truly intended to make her essential to the show, as soon as they made her character black. 

This season started off with resurrecting Max and Rosa drama, and ended with Max problems again. Very boring. 

[RachelKM]

Huh... So Liz's special solution to kill the organic space remote controller bomb was hair dye? Did I get that right? Unexpected, but okay.

I liked the flashback scenes.  In fact, I've liked all the flashback scenes. I'm genuinely interested in Tripp, Nora, Louise, Bronson, and Walt.  I suspect I would have prefered that show.

I also enjoyed the Pod Squad interactions. 

On the other hand....

Fuck this show and its disregard for Maria.  And fuck the triangle.  I find myself not liking Michael or Alex as individuals or as a couple because of the ill-use of Maria. I'll probably tune in to the first couple of episodes of Season 3. But if my ire at her treatment is reignited, I won't last long.

I guess yay for Kyle that his girlfriend isn't dying anymore.  I like him and want him to be happy.  Don't care much about Stephanie, but good on her getting to live and all.

Rosa is now the only member of her family I'm interested in watching. Arturo is fine, but nothing to see there and Liz and their mother are each pieces of work in their own ways.

Speaking of Liz, don't have much sympathy for her that Max ruined her illegal and unethical research that put him and his family at risk. Also don't care about their fight since they are bound to patch things up.

[Cristofle]

2 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Speaking of Liz, don't have much sympathy for her that Max ruined her illegal and unethical research that put him and his family at risk. Also don't care about their fight since they are bound to patch things up.

I know this is a silly show, but even by this show's standards the writing for Liz and her science goals is so, so bad. I feel like Carina decided we were obligated to root for Liz no matter what she does because she's a Latina scientist, and so she didn't put one iota of thought into this plot, and now Liz comes off as unethical and out of touch with reality. And like in the OG show when Tess mindwarped Max, I feel like the ickiness of this might be more obvious if their genders were flipped - if Max used her biological material without her knowledge or consent. Max, Isobel, and Michael did not agree to be her guinea pigs. They certainly did not agree to allow her to EVER share their biological material with the larger science world. How would Liz base a career on this research? How would she be able to use it to help anyone outside of their tiny little circle, #1, at all, and #2, without exposing the aliens? The scientific community wouldn't just accept without questioning this seemingly entirely novel protein, lol. How's she going to get treatment past the FDA? 

So yeah, the more I think about it, the less sympathy I have for her. And I like her! Or I did before this mess of a plot. There were ways to show her ambition without her coming off as delusional and completely unconcerned with the ethics of science. As far as I'm concerned, if you run secret experiments using someone's biology without their consent and they find out and burn your research to the ground? Meh. Ask next time.

[RachelKM]

3 hours ago, Cristofle said:

How would Liz base a career on this research? How would she be able to use it to help anyone outside of their tiny little circle, #1, at all, and #2, without exposing the aliens?

Oh Liz totally explained this when Max first confronted her.  She plans to fully analyze and to understand the alien genome, its capabilities, and weakness and then somehow synthesize the correct extra-terrestrial compounds and proteins all by her super special self in a rundown super secret bunker/warehouse with what appears to be outmoded utility systems, the 5-10 hospital machines she and Kyle stole, and Mr. Wizard's chemistry set.  

 

ETA:  I assume she also intends to falsify the origin of her research when publishing and/or applying for patents and FDA cert. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by RachelKM

[Lady Calypso]

Well, this was a...rather dull finale. 

I agree that they really butchered the fantastic cliffhanger from last episode by wrapping it up in the first five minutes. Oh, everyone's fine! Don't worry!

I get why Max destroyed the lab. I don't blame Liz for being upset but, at the same time, she wasn't being honest with Max about what she was doing and she could have endangered all of the lives of the aliens in town, which includes Max. Also, the Diego stuff...kind of went nowhere after the lab explosion. He disappeared from the rest of the episode without knowing exactly what he was planning. 

Michael/Maria break up. No surprise at ALL since we know what the endgame is. Annoying Michael basically gives no shits as he claims that him and Alex are endgame or whatever (and Isobel encouraging it doesn't help matters). And Alex sings a song about his shitty life....meh. I mean, he gained a new boyfriend, so that's cool. It won't last, but he deserves to be away from Can't Make Up My Mind Michael for a few episodes. 

Maria and Alex both deserve better. 

Also, Alex's song would have been better if it wasn't so heavily produced. They should have went with a simple acoustic version with more live vocals. I could hear the autotune in Tyler's song and it's a damn shame that it took away from that montage. 

Kyle also deserves better than Plot Device Steph, who I can now say was 100% useless to the season. What purpose did she serve? Because I can't recall anything she did, besides bitch at Kyle and be sick. All it did was take Kyle away from the story. And it's a shame, but no surprise as she's the other black woman in the cast and she might have gotten worse treatment than Maria did in season 1!  I know Steph isn't a main character but neither was Charlie and that lady got way more to do. 

I guess we kind of concluded part of the 1947 stuff, except now we got mysterious Mr. Jones, played by Nathan Dean! I guess I should have guessed Nathan Dean last week, and I know some people joked about it here a few episodes back. So there was no surprise with what they did. 

Overall, this season was messy. I thought it started off strong, and I found it better than season 1 at the time...but as the season went on, I think I realized that this entire season was not good at all. Maybe I should go back to season 1, which may have been a bit better than this one. And I don't think I'll be returning next season. I just don't see what would appeal me to return, not with the horrible treatment of all of their POC characters besides Liz (and even she gets the Tropey Speeches to show how "woke" their white showrunner is) and the romantic arcs have been downright terrible. They ALMOST did Max/Liz well after season 1 being badly done, and then they went back to drama with them.  

 

[Cristofle]

3 hours ago, RachelKM said:

ETA:  I assume she also intends to falsify the origin of her research when publishing and/or applying for patents and FDA cert. 

LMAO, what a mess. Like that would ever be able to happen. It was so weird when Carina said something to the effect of Max was partially trying to protect people when he burned down the lab but it was also partially self-motivated, and she made that seem bad? Max is allowed to protect himself when Liz has lost her damn mind, lol. This is one of the saner acts of self-preservation he's ever committed, and apparently he has to be high on alien juice to do so. 

Steph really did turn out to be useless, didn't she? No offense to her, but when there isn't enough time to give Maria a plot, I don't have time for Kyle's random love interest who has no real connection to the larger mystery.

[Pallida]

I had no sympathy for Liz's lab being destroyed. She had all of her notes and research easily exposed if someone was able to breach the room. Her not dismantling the lab, for me, was the ultimate betrayal of trust for Max and all the other aliens. And yeah, Kyle may have lucked out that his career wasn't destroyed (yet), but no consideration for him either. Developing something that magically helps Steph doesn't cut it for me. 

[RachelKM]

40 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Steph really did turn out to be useless, didn't she? No offense to her, but when there isn't enough time to give Maria a plot, I don't have time for Kyle's random love interest who has no real connection to the larger mystery.

Nah, bro.  She was totes necessary.  Saving Steph justifies Liz's reckless, unethical bullshit. It was right there is Kyle's hug. 

[Scarlett45]

What did I like about this season?

1. The 1940s flashbacks and learning the alien back story. 
 

2. Fine ass Diego. 
 

that’s it. 
 

Oh I totally respected Max burning up the lab. Liz took his biological material without his consent and was running experiments. Not only did he and Michael/Isabel not consent, the experiments put them in MORTAL DANGER. “The greater good” my ass. I do think Liz wants to help people, but she doesn’t have the right to put the aliens in danger and use their cells without their permission to save hypothetical people. To use it to save THEM okay (because I believe they all would donate to help each other), but not the world at large. 
 

Maria- put your bracelet back on please. 

[Scarlett45]

Oh I did like Jessie Manes dying. There are 4 Manes boys? Michael, The young man who shot Jessie, the one who is also in the military and one more? Or are there only 3?

Are we clear on birth order?

[Jenniferbug]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Oh I did like Jessie Manes dying. There are 4 Manes boys? Michael, The young man who shot Jessie, the one who is also in the military and one more? Or are there only 3?

Are we clear on birth order?

I think it's Gregory (the one who shot Jesse), Flint (military son), and then Alex. There is a 4th one, but I don't think he's been mentioned by name or birth order. For some reason I feel like Alex is the youngest of them all. 

That was a lackluster finale. I kept waiting for some larger plot to take over after the cliffhanger was resolved so early but it really felt like any other weekly episode. 

I don't understand the point of Steph. If they want Kyle to have a love interest, he has tons of chemistry with Isobel and that would move him closer to the main plot. 

I'm sad the 1947 stuff is over. It was the most interesting part of the season for sure. 

I'm sure I'll still watch next season, but this ending was a disappointment compared to last year or even last episode. 

[ellieart]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Oh I did like Jessie Manes dying. There are 4 Manes boys? Michael, The young man who shot Jessie, the one who is also in the military and one more? Or are there only 3?

Are we clear on birth order?

There's Alex, Gregory, Flint, and Clay (who was briefly mentioned by name I think last week maybe, but his name was confirmed by Carina on twitter when someone asked).  It doesn't seem like they've established a birth order though.

I also have nothing of value to add about this episode, everyone else has pretty much said how I feel.  I can say, however, that I wasted almost 13 hours of my life on this shit this season.  The only thing worthwhile about any of it was the '47 storyline.  THAT was some good tv and some of the strongest writing of the entire season.

[mandigirl]

A bloated episode, but I was actually relieved that it wasn't super cliff-hangery. 

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

So Maria and Michael broke up[...]Maria and Michael both seem to be totally aware that Alex and Michael are endgame,[...] but that the writers will hold off from getting together for awhile longer just to squeeze out more drama and keep teasing the shippers. We could have done all of this without any weird threesome tests guys, just saying. 

Seriously. I was pleasantly surprised that Maria broke up with Michael. I don't care that Michael and Alex are endgame. As long as they give Maria a love interest.  What is so hard about this? It's so glaring at this point. Every one has one (or more!), but Maria gets like half a love interest. 

They clearly don't have the balls to do a polyamourous relationship, so I could have done without that sidetrack too. 

I'm hoping that Maria having her own powers will get her more screen time and interesting story lines S3. Being a pre-cog is by far one of the better and more useful alien abilities we've seen so far. 

11 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I think Tyler sounded lovely but the lyrics seemed so bad. And just the fact that he was even singing and with Michael there and just the whole thing embarrassed the hell outta me. 

Ha! I loved Tyler's song-- best part of the episode. I despise the love triangle, but the two actors for Alex and Michael have fantastic chemistry. I do agree with Lady Calypso about an acoustic version (esp. since Tyler looked very awkward playing or pretend playing? the keyboard). The lyrics were on the nose, but so ridiculous sweet. Michael is a strong man, because if a guy sang that song to me, he wouldn't make it off the stage, lol. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by mandigirl

[Scarlett45]

27 minutes ago, mandigirl said:

Michael is a strong man, because if a guy sang that song to me, he wouldn't make it off the stage, lol. 

It was a really lovely song. If anyone finds an acoustic version let me know.

[mandigirl]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

Oh I totally respected Max burning up the lab. Liz took his biological material without his consent and was running experiments. Not only did he and Michael/Isabel not consent, the experiments put them in MORTAL DANGER.

8 hours ago, Cristofle said:

I know this is a silly show, but even by this show's standards the writing for Liz and her science goals is so, so bad. I feel like Carina decided we were obligated to root for Liz no matter what she does because she's a Latina scientist, and so she didn't put one iota of thought into this plot, and now Liz comes off as unethical and out of touch with reality.

Not a fan of what Liz did, but counter-argument, what she did was 100% legal. The aliens have ZERO rights. None. She technically didn't need their consent. Only Max had a problem with what she was doing-- from what I remember Michael and Iz didn't seem to care.  Also, most of the samples came from Noah, not the Triplet.

Not that it's a standard to aspire to, but Liz acted 1000% more humanely than the military with the alien refugees which was, once again, technically totally legal. She got her samples without hurting anyone and was able to test them without hurting either aliens or humans. She was trying to help people and was successful. I thought Max burning all her research was messed up personally. 

Liz and Kyle bent every rule in the book to save Max. They stole medical equipment that could save human patients. The least Max could have done is to give Liz a little time and latitude to work, and prove to him that she could share her research safely.

Also, Liz' life-saving research was putting the Triplet in far less danger than Max's own reckless actions, including ROSA! And melting Flint's chest in the middle of a freaking fair.  Max is hypocritical. 

[Scarlett45]

9 minutes ago, mandigirl said:

Also, Liz' life-saving research was putting the Triplet in far less danger than Max's own reckless actions, including ROSA! And melting Flint's chest in the middle of a freaking fair.  Max is hypocritical. 

You have a point there. 

[shapeshifter]

Okay. Having read the thread, I think I get it. Steph is a plot device, specifically to be the depository/reincarnation of all of Liz's research.

[RachelKM]

27 minutes ago, mandigirl said:

Not a fan of what Liz did, but counter-argument, what she did was 100% legal. The aliens have ZERO rights. None. She technically didn't need their consent. Only Max had a problem with what she was doing-- from what I remember Michael and Iz didn't seem to care.  Also, most of the samples came from Noah, not the Triplet.

Even assuming they have no legal protections, it is horribly unethical and a violation of their trust.  Most of us have premised our arguments principally on ethical and moral grounds (and, seriously, laws are regularly skirted by the crowd on this show).

That said, whether the Pod Squad have rights or not, Stephanie never consented to having her DNA taken or analyzed nor did she agree to Liz providing treatment.  That was definitely illegal even if we want to argue a lack of civil rights for non-terrestrial beings.

Edited June 17, 2020 by RachelKM

[sweetandsour]

Agree with everyone else about the weird pacing of the finale.

One of my biggest problems with this show is the constant feeling that the characters are just chess pieces being moved around to serve whatever plotlines are chosen.  It injects a level of inauthenticity I can't ignore.  Of course, this happens on other shows, too - like the cliche of secrets being kept between people because of [make up some stupid reason for them not to talk about it for five episodes] - but it's so pervasive on Roswell.  To the point where I wonder, "did I miss some scenes that bridged from previous events to here?" but the answer is no.

All sides of the love triangle continue to confound me.  More chess pieces being moved around willy nilly.  It doesn't build suspense or anticipation for the future, because I can't imagine future events won't be just as inauthentic.  How does anything feel earned this way.  Alex's song was fine, but I just shrugged when he went to the not-Rider-Strong dude afterwards.

Liz has no professional ethics.  Even discounting alien rights as not existing on earth, and even if most/all of her research was based on Noah the dead villain vs. her alive alien bf, there was nothing ethical about giving Steph, a human, medical treatment that had no real testing/trials and was not consented to by her.  I suppose it's possible that, even though Steph talked to Kyle like she just woke up feeling way better, Liz talked to Steph about an experimental treatment and Steph said, "let's go for it, I know you're not a doctor here, but what do I have to lose?"  But what are the odds that Liz properly represented the lack of testing and nature of the treatment.   Zero.

A big issue I have with the narrative idea that aliens don't have rights, while this could be technically true, is that it clashes so hard (for me) with the ideas the show espouses about illegal aliens and how they are treated.

Liz is also being willfully obtuse about Diego.  And I feel like if she later finds out he screwed her over, she would be shocked and outraged like she wasn't already warned about him.

I agree Max has a lot of his own issues in decisions he makes and things he does, but he's been one of the weakest parts of the show to me so that bothers me less.

I get that this show is probably budgeted to only allow some of the regulars to appear in, say, 10 out of 13 episodes, but they really need to serve the corresponding characters of Kyle and Maria a lot better.

Edited June 17, 2020 by sweetandsour
remembered that Steph already knows who Liz is

[Whodunnit]

On 6/15/2020 at 10:34 PM, tennisgurl said:

So with Manes men, they either hate aliens, or fall head over heels in love with them? 

Should I start shipping Gregory/Izzy then?

Eta: This season finale was tepid.

Guess what nineties song was running through my head by the end of this episode?

Hint: A Cranberries song that starts with "D".

Edited June 17, 2020 by Whodunnit

[KittenPokerCheater]

Count me in on feeling that Tyler's song was heavy handed.  I wasn't a fan- what he did last season was far and away better.

But what really concerned me was his posture as he was playing the piano (if he was playing it).  He was hunched over the keyboard and his wrists looked super out of alignment.  If he's going to continue to play, he needs to work on that, because I would hate for him to mess up his back/elbows/wrists and then not be able to play well.

But after this season, I am over Michael being with ANYONE.  Maria/Alex deserve so much better.

 

[Whimsy]

On 6/15/2020 at 10:28 PM, shapeshifter said:

I LOL'd when they had the alien moonlight back-lighting Jason Behr's ears. Anyone else?

Yes, lol.  Me.  

I also thought the song was way over-produced and autotuned.  At one point it sounded like multiple voices and Alex was up there by himself.  They could've at least TRIED to make it seem like it was just him and a keyboard.  

I also agree with those saying that the 1941 scenes were the best and will seriously miss Jason Behr next season.  I didn't really see the chemistry between him and Nora (?).  I just don't like that actress.  

Idk.  I may not return next season- whenever that may be.  The only person I've finally warmed up to is Isabelle.  Not sure if that's a strong enough reason to come back.  All this show has done is make me miss the OG show and start a rewatch of that (which has been slow going due to real-world stuff and still watching other shows).

 

[Cristofle]

14 hours ago, mandigirl said:

Not a fan of what Liz did, but counter-argument, what she did was 100% legal. The aliens have ZERO rights. None. She technically didn't need their consent. Only Max had a problem with what she was doing-- from what I remember Michael and Iz didn't seem to care.  Also, most of the samples came from Noah, not the Triplet.

Michael actually did ask her to stop her experiments earlier in the season (it was the episode where Rosa went to rehab), and Isobel only didn't because she had no clue they were happening. In terms of legality, I was more talking about whatever she'd have to do to get her treatments past the FDA. And if her argument is that Max, Isobel, and Michael are not human and have no rights, that'd be more of a reason for Max to burn her lab to the ground, not less. 

And as someone said above, what she did with Stephanie definitely was illegal and unethical, because she is human. 

A fair amount of her samples have absolutely come from Max, because she's talked about taking them throughout the season (and at one point her notes appeared to reference a spinal tap from him). 

Max saving Rosa was absolutely careless on his part and a reason for Isobel and Michael to be angry at him, but it doesn't really justify Liz running experiments without their consent. "You brought my sister back from the dead so it's cool that I'm risking your safety by running experiments without your consent" also isn't a great argument on her part of all people.

[Pallida]

I feel petty, but the excellent points above about the ethics of treating Steph with alien-derived treatment (whether synthesized or not) without any trials has made me hope there's some kind of negative side effect. I want Liz to be humbled by her rush-rush-rush attitude having consequences. (And I really wish the writing didn't make me want this.) 

[Kymmi]

I had a lot of problems with this episode, but chief among them was that I just didn't feel anything. +1 on the quick resolution of what felt like a real cliffhanger at the end of the last episode. We're fine, nothing to see here.

I don't have a stake in the Michael/Maria or Michael/Alex ships; I enjoy both for different reasons. But I felt less than nothing when Maria was delivering her monologue to Michael. First of all, I didn't see any of this crazy growth and acceptance she found with Michael. TBH I felt it more between Maria & Isobel. 

I miss the classic angst between Max & Liz from early S1, but despite the whiplash from resolving the Max is dead & Max can't remember Liz storylines, I enjoyed their easiness with each other. This breakup was earned (Liz went way too far, and has been called out multiple times about how deep she gets in with this), but I couldn't help feel when Liz was on the shore of New Mexico (that was not CA) it was a nothing moment. What was I supposed to feel? Peace for her? They also cheapened the whole inevitable reveal that Diego was shady. It felt cheap.

I don't care for Rosa, but she had one of the best scenes of the episode with her mother. There is a powerful truth in a child loving a parent and not wanting anything to do with them at the same time. Off to rehab with you, Rosa!

The song was fine, but as mentioned would have worked better on me as acoustic. Also didn't buy the cowboys sitting there in stiff silence and then suddenly feeling like it was a great jam. Nice kiss there.

Kyle is wasted on this show. Stephanie is a snooze, but I guess Liz "curing" her with her alien DNA concoction can create drama next season when it inevitably fails.

 

[RachelKM]

47 minutes ago, Kymmi said:

but I couldn't help feel when Liz was on the shore of New Mexico (that was not CA)

It didn't look like any California shoreline I was familiar with.  But where would New Mexico have a rocky shoreline like that?  It's land locked.

50 minutes ago, Kymmi said:

There is a powerful truth in a child loving a parent and not wanting anything to do with them at the same time. Off to rehab with you, Rosa!

I forgot to mention this.  It was a really well done scene. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Pallida said:

I feel petty, but the excellent points above about the ethics of treating Steph with alien-derived treatment (whether synthesized or not) without any trials has made me hope there's some kind of negative side effect. I want Liz to be humbled by her rush-rush-rush attitude having consequences. (And I really wish the writing didn't make me want this.) 

Maybe the plan is to have Steph die and Liz have some dramatic response of conscience. Steph having a short shelf life would explain why Steph has been such a cardboard cutout character.
 

 

42 minutes ago, Kymmi said:

I felt less than nothing when Maria was delivering her monologue to Michael.

Both Heather Hemmens and Michael Vlamis as Maria and Michael delivered their ILU-it’s-over speeches like they were reading grocery lists. That had to be a directorial choice (by Jeffrey G. Hunt), right? Maybe it was supposed to indicate they weren’t sincerely breaking up? Or leave the door open for reconciliation for shippers?

[Kymmi]

6 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

It didn't look like any California shoreline I was familiar with.  But where would New Mexico have a rocky shoreline like that?  It's land locked.

I suspect they filmed Liz in NM and edited in the shore. It's possible that there is CA coast somewhere that looks like it (but I never saw it growing up there). I know they had to lock down due to COVID-19 before the episode was complete, so it's not terribly surprising that there are some rough spots.

[Cristofle]

2 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Maybe the plan is to have Steph die and Liz have some dramatic response of conscience. Steph having a short shelf life would explain why Steph has been such a cardboard cutout character.
 

 

Both Heather Hemmens and Michael Vlamis as Maria and Michael delivered their ILU-it’s-over speeches like they were reading grocery lists. That had to be a directorial choice (by Jeffrey G. Hunt), right? Maybe it was supposed to indicate they weren’t sincerely breaking up? Or leave the door open for reconciliation for shippers?

LOL, I actually had the thought when Maria was talking that she sounded like Ted from HIMYM when he broke up with his girlfriend via her answering machine in S1. I am so off of Michael that I have no problem with her not giving a crap, but it was definitely a weird directing choice. 

[I-Kare]

On 6/16/2020 at 6:26 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Kyle also deserves better than Plot Device Steph, who I can now say was 100% useless to the season. What purpose did she serve? Because I can't recall anything she did, besides bitch at Kyle and be sick. All it did was take Kyle away from the story. And it's a shame, but no surprise as she's the other black woman in the cast and she might have gotten worse treatment than Maria did in season 1!  I know Steph isn't a main character but neither was Charlie and that lady got way more to do. 

I totally agree with everything you said - just one thing, I think Justina Adorno is Latina.

[Lady Calypso]

3 hours ago, I-Kare said:

I totally agree with everything you said - just one thing, I think Justina Adorno is Latina.

Huh. That just goes to show how much I actually pay attention to her. As soon as she's off my screen, I forget about her (like most others on this show).

Though I feel really bad for mixing up her race.

[mandigirl]

On 6/16/2020 at 9:02 PM, RachelKM said:

Stephanie never consented to having her DNA taken or analyzed nor did she agree to Liz providing treatment.

So many points well taken, and not to be contrary, but  technically  speaking, Steph 'abandoned' that sample Liz used to do her research. IRL, that sample would have been useless, but not in Roswell! Also, we have no idea what Liz did or did not tell Steph about the alien treatment because that scene was off-screen inexplicably. 

11 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Max saving Rosa was absolutely careless on his part and a reason for Isobel and Michael to be angry at him, but it doesn't really justify Liz running experiments without their consent.

I don't disagree with this or any of the other excellent posts about Liz's bioethics. Non-consensual medical testing is wrong. I'm pissed because Liz is a Latina STEM genius- what message are the writers trying to make exactly?  Also, this is what doesn't sit well with me--

-- People here have raised lack of consent and violation of trust, but that is not the objection that Max raised. His stated objection was Liz 'putting them in danger' with her research. He even destroyed Noah's samples which had nothing to do with him.

Liz doesn't get carte blanche, but Max's actions do make his objections based on 'endangerment' hypocritical at best if not straight up laughable. 

-- If we're going to go into ethics, why the heck doesn't Max consent for goodness sake? If someone said that your fingernail clippings could cure heart disease, saving millions, potentially billions, is it ethical for you to just say 'Nah.' No blow back to you, nothing invasive. You don't even let them try? I have a problem with Max and the rest of the Triplet using Liz and her research to cover and save their asses, but the second she wants to use that same research to save other lives, 'it's too dangerous', burn your lab to the ground. There's something off about that to me. 

Edited June 18, 2020 by mandigirl

[RachelKM]

13 hours ago, mandigirl said:

Also, we have no idea what Liz did or did not tell Steph about the alien treatment because that scene was off-screen inexplicably. 

Well, yeah, we don't know what Liz did or didn't tell Stephanie.  But Steph didn't seem to know what was up.  She didn't say, "Liz's treatment worked!" or "I thought when Liz approached me she was nutz, but what did I have to lose?" She seemed like she thought it was a miracle reprieve that was completely unexpected and inexplicable. 

And Liz DEFINITELY invaded her privacy (and violated HIPAA) by reading her file without consent or being one of her treating physicians.  Granted, so did Kyle.  But Stephanie confronted him about that.

13 hours ago, mandigirl said:

People here have raised lack of consent and violation of trust, but that is not the objection that Max raised. His stated objection was Liz 'putting them in danger' with her research. He even destroyed Noah's samples which had nothing to do with him.

Putting them in danger against their expressed wishes (they were all clear about being uncomfortable with anything that could expose them) is a violation of trust, though.  Max's reasons for his objections are immaterial to the bioethics question since objections are objections. 

And the violation of trust is a big deal because, regardless of whether there are laws or IRBs set up for the experimentation on non-terrestrial lifeforms, Liz values them as people, or claims to.  She claims to love Max and consider Isobel and Michael friends. So she should consider their privacy, safety, and emotional wellbeing worth respecting.

Likewise, the show is presenting the aliens as comparable to an at risk minority and expects us to view them as people. And then, as you said, they have the heroine Latina STEM genius act like bioethics don't exist and all ends justify the means no matter who she places at risk or how they might object. What the actual fuck are they going for?  If she were a Marvel character, she'd be a villain.

Also, Noah's samples have to do with all of them because they are alien samples and any access to that could put the any remaining living aliens, i.e. the  Pod Squad, and (depending on what they found enabling identification) potentially Rosa and Maria in danger. 

13 hours ago, mandigirl said:

If we're going to go into ethics, why the heck doesn't Max consent for goodness sake? If someone said that your fingernail clippings could cure heart disease, saving millions, potentially billions, is it ethical for you to just say 'Nah.' No blow back to you, nothing invasive. You don't even let them try? I have a problem with Max and the rest of the Triplet using Liz and her research to cover and save their asses, but the second she wants to use that same research to save other lives, 'it's too dangerous', burn your lab to the ground. There's something off about that to me. 

Max doesn't consent because he fears that fingernail could lead to the exposure of him and his family and result in them living in captivity like Nora and the other survivors captured in from the crash. 

If someone told me there was a limited possibility* that taking my blood would cure some diseases but, in doing so, I could be exposing myself and my family to a future of captivity and torturous experiments, I'd be a little protective and resistant.  Liz may be a benevolent version of Hydra, but that doesn't mean the next guy to get ahold of a sample won't turn out to be Arnim Zola or Daniel Whitehall.

So I'm cool with Max prioritizing his family's safety over a maybe medical breakthrough that, honestly, how is Liz going to publish without putting aliens at risk again?  

*As smart as Liz is, her theory is just a theory. And even if she's right about the potential of alien biological material holding some key to cures, there is no guarantee she'd be successful in development. I mean, of course she will, she's the best scientist ever!... but he doesn't know that he's in a CW show.

Edited June 18, 2020 by RachelKM

[shapeshifter]

@RachelKM, if you were consulting for this show, I wonder if it would be a better show, or if there would just be too much resistance to your common sense. 

[RachelKM]

46 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

@RachelKM, if you were consulting for this show, I wonder if it would be a better show, or if there would just be too much resistance to your common sense. 

You suggested my consulting for this show just over a month ago.  I will say what I said then. It would not work.  I would give it a week max before someone was dead. And then I'd end my days in jail, assuming that I was not the one who died when I had a rage stroke when Carina attempted to defend literally any decision she has made about any minority on this show.

[peachmangosteen]

6 hours ago, RachelKM said:

But Steph didn't seem to know what was up.  She didn't say, "Liz's treatment worked!" or "I thought when Liz approached me she was nutz, but what did I have to lose?" She seemed like she thought it was a miracle reprieve that was completely unexpected and inexplicable. 

I guess she could've been playing dumb because Liz told her not to say anything or something but it didn't read that way to me at all. I don't think that was the intention but they might retcon it if they realize how terrible Liz looks.

[Scarlett45]

8 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Max doesn't consent because he fears that fingernail could lead to the exposure of him and his family and result in them living in captivity like Nora and the other survivors captured in from the crash. 

If someone told me there was a limited possibility* that taking my blood would cure some diseases but, in doing so, I could be exposing myself and my family to a future of captivity and torturous experiments, I'd be a little protective and resistant.  Liz may be a benevolent version of Hydra, but that doesn't mean they next guy to get ahold of a sample won't turn out to be Arnim Zola or Daniel Whitehall.

Yes, and for that I don’t blame him. The Triplets don't have a duty to offer up their dna (or DNA of other aliens) to solve human illnesses.
 

And why would they want to when doing so could lead to their torture and experimentation. Especially when others of “their kind” HAVE BEEN tortured and experimented on without consent by the military for decades. Decades!
 

They aren’t “irrationally paranoid” about exposure.