S02.E02: The Turtle and the Alligator

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Through medical school, law school and many pregnancies, Betty supports Dan until he hits it big.

Original air date: 6/2/20

[Madding crowd]

Betty was such a doormat, always doing what Dan wanted even if she and her kids had to suffer. I know the whole story but I kept wanting her to say no to him. 

[anniebird]

4 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Betty was such a doormat, always doing what Dan wanted even if she and her kids had to suffer. I know the whole story but I kept wanting her to say no to him. 

Well she kinds of ends up saying no in a rather big way.

[Madding crowd]

Yes I know but if she would have insisted on him putting his family first it wouldn’t have led to years of sacrifice and resentment- maybe

[mamadrama]

I keep trying to reconcile this Betty with Meredith Baxter's. They seem like two totally different people. (You know what I mean.)

The 3 lab coats pissed me off more than it should have.

Edited June 6, 2020 by mamadrama

[Tabbygirl521]

I’m not saying he didn’t need killin’ but I wish Betty had had better impulse control. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

6 hours ago, mamadrama said:

The 3 lab coats passed me off more than it should have.

Same here. The way he framed it as doing it for her so that she wouldn't have to spot clean his coats every night as a way to justify spending money they didn't have just had me shaking my head.

[Armchair Critic]

"You're so lucky Betty" (that she has a faithful husband). Welp.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

54 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

"You're so lucky Betty" (that she has a faithful husband). Welp.

That reminded me of the episode of the Sopranos when someone mentioned that Bobby was the only one in the crew who didn't have a mistress and that was supposed to be an "Awwww, Bobby is so sweet" moment but for me it was just "Ugh, all of these other guys are cheating assholes" moment. Way to set the bar super low!

[Sweet-tea]

Really seeing the difference in MB's performance and AP's. MB showed both Betty's vulnerability and her erratic, nutso tendencies, but she did it in a compelling way. I'm not getting that from AP.

Why is everyone hating Stephen Collins? Did I miss something? 

[bkathi]

21 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

Why is everyone hating Stephen Collins? Did I miss something? 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2014/12/17/7th-heaven-dad-stephen-collins-admits-to-sexually-abusing-three-girls/

[Retired at last]

This show is presenting a little more less-than-perfect Dan, so that's a nice change. However, while most of us were getting mad at his behavior and expectations, it truly WAS the way things were back then and that is all he knew. I am glad to see how much it jumps out now.

I also liked that they showed some scenes where they really were happy.

Still not liking the leads. Amanda Peet seems just too wimpy and I am not impressed with Christian Slater, either. The nerdy young Dan was interesting to watch.

Thanks for the note about Open Library. I have Until the Twelfth of Never checked out right now.

[Sweet-tea]

2 hours ago, bkathi said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2014/12/17/7th-heaven-dad-stephen-collins-admits-to-sexually-abusing-three-girls/

Yikes! I had forgotten about this. Thanks for the reminder. What a shame. I used to like him as an actor. 

[preeya]

5 hours ago, Sweet-tea said:

Yikes! I had forgotten about this. Thanks for the reminder. What a shame. I used to like him as an actor. 

7 hours ago, bkathi said:

Why is everyone hating Stephen Collins? Did I miss something? 

 

This statement:  “I admit to, apologize for, and take responsibility for what I did.”  means nothing and excuses nothing.  He is a scumbag pedophile and always will be. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by preeya

[mamadrama]

I like AP's portrayal of BB, but something just feels off. Like, she's doing a good job playing a woman scorned, but I don't see BB in her character. MB played Betty over the top, but when you watch the real BB in interviews you realize her depiction wasn't that far off.

[geauxaway]

On 6/3/2020 at 12:13 PM, Madding crowd said:

Betty was such a doormat, always doing what Dan wanted even if she and her kids had to suffer. I know the whole story but I kept wanting her to say no to him. 

I wonder tho, in real life, if she had been firmer with him and said no, he probably would have just started cheating on her earlier in the marriage.  
 

I‘m enjoying this for what it is.  If I disassociate it from the MBB movies, I like it just fine.  

[Retired at last]

I just finished reading the book Until the Twelfth of Never and between this one and the MB movies, the movies are pretty close. There are more details in the book (714 pages!) and definitely shows Dan in a different light than the movies do. I am still not enjoying AP's performance and I think she might have been a better Linda. She just seems too wimpy. And Christian Slater is not dashing enough. But, as @geauxaway says, it's better to forget about the other movies and enjoy new programming for what it is.

[txhorns79]

On 6/4/2020 at 11:24 AM, Retired at last said:

This show is presenting a little more less-than-perfect Dan, so that's a nice change. However, while most of us were getting mad at his behavior and expectations, it truly WAS the way things were back then and that is all he knew. I am glad to see how much it jumps out now.

The idea that she would make their bed on the honeymoon was just weird.  I am curious how much of what we were shown was real versus fictionalized, and who the source was for the scenes that were just Betty and Dan alone.  

I didn't love the structure of the episode.  I felt like they jumped back and forth between timelines too much.   

[cameron]

On 6/4/2020 at 11:24 AM, Retired at last said:

This show is presenting a little more less-than-perfect Dan, so that's a nice change. However, while most of us were getting mad at his behavior and expectations, it truly WAS the way things were back then and that is all he knew. I am glad to see how much it jumps out now.

I also liked that they showed some scenes where they really were happy.

Still not liking the leads. Amanda Peet seems just too wimpy and I am not impressed with Christian Slater, either. The nerdy young Dan was interesting to watch.

Thanks for the note about Open Library. I have Until the Twelfth of Never checked out right now.

Totally disagree with "that was the way things were truly back then".  Same age at Betty and never would have put up with what she went through with her  husband during the marriage.  Women would more assertive then, unless they wanted to be nothing more than a doormat.

[Annber03]

On 6/3/2020 at 9:59 PM, mamadrama said:

The 3 lab coats pissed me off more than it should have.

 

4 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

The idea that she would make their bed on the honeymoon was just weird. 

Agreed. Just...seriously, dude? 

On 6/4/2020 at 10:24 AM, Retired at last said:

I also liked that they showed some scenes where they really were happy.

Same. It really adds to the general sadness and horror of the story. I also think the jumping back and forth worked more smoothly this episode. I like the whole thing of going back and forth between the trial and the scenes from their marriage. And the guy playing the younger version of Dan sure looks a lot like Christian Slater, so good casting there. I also really like the musical choices in these first couple episodes. That Cyndi Lauper song's going through my head a lot-I've never heard that one before, I like it.

Betty's mom is...a lot. 

[geauxaway]

21 hours ago, Retired at last said:

I just finished reading the book Until the Twelfth of Never and between this one and the MB movies, the movies are pretty close. There are more details in the book (714 pages!) and definitely shows Dan in a different light than the movies do. I am still not enjoying AP's performance and I think she might have been a better Linda. She just seems too wimpy. And Christian Slater is not dashing enough. But, as @geauxaway says, it's better to forget about the other movies and enjoy new programming for what it is.

It’s summer, I’m a lot more lenient lol.  
 

I’ve never heard of the book.  714 pages??  Must have been written in the 90’s ha!

[Tabbygirl521]

7 hours ago, cameron said:

Totally disagree with "that was the way things were truly back then".  Same age at Betty and never would have put up with what she went through with her  husband during the marriage.  Women would more assertive then, unless they wanted to be nothing more than a doormat.

Heck, my mom was born in 1926 and my dad in 1915. Not only would he never have made any such suggestion but if he had, she would have told him to shove it - literally.

Women may not have had as many options in Betty’s heyday but they didn’t automatically have marriages in which they were doormats. 

[Annber03]

I think my grandma (born in 1924) would've done the same. She did control the finances and whatnot, and had a job outside the home. My grandpa worked as a truck driver and was on the road much of the time, so she had to do her part to keep all that stuff going while he was away, and she got to have a say in how the house was run (my mom remembers my grandpa talking about wanting to get a color TV and my grandma said no for the longest time because they already had a perfectly good working TV, they didn't need a new one). 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Annber03

[mamadrama]

8 hours ago, cameron said:

Totally disagree with "that was the way things were truly back then".  Same age at Betty and never would have put up with what she went through with her  husband during the marriage.  Women would more assertive then, unless they wanted to be nothing more than a doormat.

I concur. It really varied from couple to couple. A lot of what happened (post separation) took place in the 80's and by then it definitely wasn't unusual for women to have just as much control as the men in the marriage. Even in the 70s. There were some households that had the same dynamic as B&D, but it wasn't universal. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

9 hours ago, Annber03 said:

That Cyndi Lauper song's going through my head a lot-I've never heard that one before, I like it.

It was written by Prince and was released on his 1980 album Dirty Mind:

 

[Annber03]

Ahhh, okay, cool, thanks! Will give that a listen :).

[teapot]

20 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It was written by Prince and was released on his 1980 album Dirty Mind:

 

RIP.  I’ll never not miss you, Purple One!!!!

[seacliffsal]

I think the actress who portrayed the younger Betty had a better resemblance to the real Betty than Amanda Peet.  I was also better able to track the flashbacks due to having different actors portray the younger versions.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Kids were taught how to shoot in PE? Wow.

Looked like Dan targeted Betty from the beginning. That was kind of creepy to me the way he said, "You're perfect." He probably had a plan even then to use her as a baby factory and glorified indentured servant while he got his degrees and built his career.

I think the guy playing young Dan had Christian Slater's voice down pat. Unless it was dubbed by Slater himself, I guess.

Betty's mother may have been mixed nuts but she apparently had the right read on her new SIL. Why would he show up at the wedding in the wrong clothes? Other than to upstage the bride, anyway.

So Dan refused to use contraception? When Betty said she wanted to get her tubes tied after the fourth baby it looked like that was the beginning of the end for him. If he hadn't already started looking for another woman he likely did soon afterward.

Quote

Well she kinds of ends up saying no in a rather big way.

Unfortunately it was too much, too late. 😕 She probably should have shot him on the honeymoon. 😉

Edited June 19, 2020 by Joimiaroxeu

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Opening scene:

Betty Receives Life-Changing News

Betty Has A Pre-Natal Emergency

Dan Believes Socializing Is Necessary

 

Edited June 28, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[methodwriter85]

On 6/6/2020 at 12:53 AM, mamadrama said:

I like AP's portrayal of BB, but something just feels off. Like, she's doing a good job playing a woman scorned, but I don't see BB in her character. MB played Betty over the top, but when you watch the real BB in interviews you realize her depiction wasn't that far off.

She plays BB as a genteel girl from a WASP background, which doesn't fit the actual Betty.

[Paloma]

On 6/8/2020 at 2:29 PM, cameron said:

Totally disagree with "that was the way things were truly back then".  Same age at Betty and never would have put up with what she went through with her  husband during the marriage.  Women would more assertive then, unless they wanted to be nothing more than a doormat.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with your total disagreement. Probably no one is following this discussion anymore, but I still want to set the record straight based on my experience. I apologize in advance for the long post, but I think it will explain a lot about why Betty felt as she did.

I wasn't sure about the timeline until just now when I looked up when Betty was born, when they got married, and when Ms. Magazine was first published (hold on, I'll explain). Now that I have the dates, I believe Betty's and Dan's expectations and behavior were consistent with my memory of the culture in the 1950s-1970s.

Betty was born in 1947 (3 years before me) and got married at age 21 (1 year older than me). I and other girls growing up in the 1950s-60s mostly had the traditional expectations of marriage, keeping house, and raising children. Many of us were expected to go to college, but in part to find a good husband and provider. Some girls (and I use that term intentionally because that is how we thought of ourselves then) might plan to have a traditional female job such as teaching, nursing, secretary, or flight attendant (that we might quit after we had kids). But not many of us dreamed of becoming doctors, lawyers, engineers, or other well-paying and prestigious jobs--those were the jobs that our husbands would hold. Of course there was some variation depending on your personal family background.

Things started changing in the late 1960s, although there was still sexism and traditional gender expectations even in the antiwar protest movements and radical leftist groups of that period--I saw that firsthand when I was in college in Washington, DC, from 1968 to 1970. The first issue of Ms. Magazine was in July 1972 (technically it first appeared in December 1971 as a preview in New York Magazine). Although some girls and women started having their consciousness raised at the beginning of second-wave feminism (which was roughly considered 1960s-1980s), plenty of others did not want to be associated with "bra burners,"  "man haters," and the other insulting labels for feminists of that era. And some of us may have been interested in the feminist ideas but took longer to get involved because of our life situations (such as my early marriage to an alcoholic that led me to drop out of college and consumed all my emotional energy; other women my age already had young children, as Betty did, and may not been able to focus on feminist issues). Let's also not forget the religious factor (with both of them being Catholic, contraception and abortion were out of the question) and the parental influence factor (Betty's parents thought of her as a slut when boys showed interest by calling the house; marrying a Catholic boy with a promising future would probably make them proud).

Equally important as the expectations of those growing up in the 1950s-60s and as young adults in the 1970s were the expectations for wives of professionals, especially lawyers, in an upper-middle-class or wealthy society. Although more women wanted to have careers and independence in the 1970s into 1980s, these wives were expected to keep up their looks, maintain all responsibility for household and children matters, entertain their husbands' colleagues and clients, and never complain about the husbands' long hours and lack of involvement in the family life. Living up to these expectations was no guarantee that the husband would not cheat, but not living up to any one of these expectations increased the likelihood of being cheated on and being divorced--traded in for a younger and more compliant girlfriend/wife. (I did not personally experience this, but I saw plenty of it.)

@cameron I don't doubt that you would not have put up with it and that there are many women of our age who did become assertive and refuse to be doormats. But in Betty's story we are seeing a particular part of society and a woman who was raised with the pre-feminist traditional expectations. She was far from the only one who bought into the expectations and then saw her life fall apart when her spouse violated those expectations.