S21.E20: The Things We Have to Lose

[dttruman]

This description is from Googling "law & order: special victims unit season 21 episode 20", The Things We Have to Lose

As Carisi begins the long-anticipated trial of Sir Toby Moore, the SVU faces setbacks in several other cases.

 

Cast info from Fandom "The Things We Have to Lose"

Main cast

Mariska Hargitay as Captain Olivia Benson

Kelli Giddish as Detective Amanda Rollins

Ice-T as Sergeant Odafin Tutuola

Peter Scanavino as A.D.A. Dominick Carisi, Jr.

Jamie Gray Hyder as Detective Katriona Tamin

Recurring cast

Jenna Stern as Defense Attorney Elana Barth

Ben Davis as Defense Attorney Paul Davies

Stephen Wallem as Nurse Rudy Syndergaard

Carmen Berkeley as Pilar Reyes

Bea Cordelia as Lakira Beca

Grace Narducci as Ivy Bucci

Afi Bijou as Simone Fuller

James Udom as Leon Fuller

Ja'Siah Young as Andre Fuller

Guest cast

Gisela Chipe as Ramona Diaz

Matthew Nikitow as Gil

Brandon Essig as Hip Happy Hour Crowd

[dttruman]

My big question about this episode is, will Carisi and his prosecution of Toby Moore and Fin's domestic violence case get the proper attention, or will there be more internal soap opera happenings?

[WendyCR72]

Is this the "finale"?

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

Is this the "finale"?

Yes this is the season 21 finale. 

I’m hoping for an episode heavy on Fin and Carisi, but since they rarely get anything meaty I’m afraid this won’t happen and instead we will get another Benson/Rollins hour. 

I can only hope this finale is better than last years shitshow. 

[WendyCR72]

13 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I can only hope this finale is better than last years shitshow. 

Well, since this wasn't meant to be a finale, wellllllllll...  (Look at the editing that had to go into making the Mothership's last episode into a finale since they had no warning! And I'm not sure there was time to edit this.)

[CrystalBlue]

Where's Ian McShane in the credits?

[Xeliou66]

32 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

Where's Ian McShane in the credits?

I wondered the same thing - I wonder if he will appear in the episode, he would have to if they show Sir Toby’s trial so I’m wondering why he isn’t listed, although not every guest star is listed and given the episode description and the fact that Sir Toby’s defense lawyer Barth will appear, I bet he’s in the episode. But they might not even show his trial, it could be a false description and Carisi may not get much screentime after all, it wouldn’t shock me if, despite being advertised as Fin and Carisi heavy, it turns out to be the Benson and Rollins hour once again. 

[dttruman]

9 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

9 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Where's Ian McShane in the credits?

I wondered the same thing - I wonder if he will appear in the episode, he would have to if they show Sir Toby’s trial so I’m wondering why he isn’t listed, although not every guest star is listed and given the episode description and the fact that Sir Toby’s defense lawyer Barth will appear, I bet he’s in the episode. But they might not even show his trial, it could be a false description and Carisi may not get much screentime after all, it wouldn’t shock me if, despite being advertised as Fin and Carisi heavy, it turns out to be the Benson and Rollins hour once again. 

I'm in the same boat with you guys. I am starting to think, that Toby's lawyer is to going to report to the court that Toby has left the country or maybe he is being prosecuted in another country, and that's all concerning Carisi. They will probably continue with the trial next season

Wasn't there an episode last year or before that, where Carisi's name was mentioned predominantly in an episode and they even showed him in a promo? Then it turned out, he was only mentioned in the beginning and it became a Benson and Rollins investigation with all their soapy drama.

Edited April 22, 2020 by dttruman

[dttruman]

Well it's off to a dubious start, Benson is lecturing Rollins on official police procedure concerning the Bucci kid. How many times has Benson broken protocol.

I thought both of the Bucci girls were portrayed as young innocent girls that were seduced into the party life of drugs, sex, and money. They both were suppose to testify against what's his name. Now, one is an out of control party girl? Not very consistent are the writers?

Edited April 24, 2020 by dttruman

[Gigi43]

I always want Finn to have things to do but WTF. Guy deserved it, Finn had reason to believe he'd do it, but shit, it's in front of the kid.

 

[dttruman]

On 4/23/2020 at 9:50 PM, Gigi43 said:

I always want Finn to have things to do but WTF. Guy deserved it, Finn had reason to believe he'd do it, but shit, it's in front of the kid.

 

Did you think that Fin's case was a little to contrived? I thought the son should have been more aware of his father's anger and how dangerous he was. It seems like any kid who sees his (her) mother get routinely beat up by his (or her) father should have some kind of animosity towards him, but there was none here.

If this would have been a 2 hour or even an 1 1/2 hour long episode it would have been so much better. They didn't give any of the subplots enough time to really play out. Everything was pretty much shoved together. All the scenarios looked very promising, but nothing was allowed to develop, and the writers were relying on the gimmick that everything that happen, must be accepted without question.

The guest stars I thought, tried to do their best, but what they had to do was very contrary to what they did in their previous appearances. Ivy's party girl act was so inconsistent with her family unity first personality, that she portrayed so well earlier. Tamin's friend Lakira, showed a very callous attitude when she collected money (or a payoff) for not to press charges. Now when her friend is killed, I thought she would be just as callous, because it's all part of "life on the streets".  I mentioned the domestic abuse scenario earlier in a previous comment. The problem I have with Carisi's dilemma was why did he only have Benson there for support. Wouldn't he have someone as a second chair, considering this is a very big trial?

 

[ChristiKRN]

Random thoughts: Overall, I thought it was a good episode.  The highlight was Fin having something to do.  Ice T isn’t going to win an Emmy anytime soon, but I thought he did a great job conveying his despair over Andre seeing his dad die.  Joelle was off her rocker for suing him for wrongful death; hopefully, she will see the light or the lawsuit  gets tossed.

Rollins found her hair brush- good for her.

Well, Kat more than just insinuated that she was bisexual in this episode.  

Since when does a captain of a busy, short-staffed unit have time to help the ADA prep witnesses for trial? Carisi is more than capable.  

Benson was out of line for calling out former judge now defense attorney Barth.  Barth is right- every defendant has the right to having a defense, no matter how despicable they may be. 

Sir Toby=Harvey Weinstein.  It wasn’t even subtle.  

Why in God’s name would Mrs. Bucci think to reach out to the woman who her ex-husband kidnapped before anyone else? 

Good for Carisi on turning Rollins down for once.  The hair flip was as subtle as Sir Toby’s chompers.  

[preeya]

Whew! That was tedious.

[Xeliou66]

This was a good episode on the whole, but I can’t help but feel it would’ve been better as a two-parter and I wonder if the next episode would’ve picked up where this one left off and some of the stories would’ve had more resolution as the season went on. I wonder if the season 22 premiere will address some of the stuff from this episode. 

I guess they couldn’t get Ian McShane back so that’s why Sir Toby kept having health issues keep him out of court. I wonder if his trial will be shown next season or if they will come back to that storyline since it was left open ended. I liked seeing Carisi prepping the witnesses and I liked his outrage at Sir Toby not showing up. The judge was great as well. But I disliked Benson’s lecture to Barth, Barth was right, everyone deserves a defense, and I was annoyed with Benson’s condescending lecture. 

I loved the Fin storyline, he was really good as always and I liked how the story played out.  Kat’s rape and murder case was good as well and a good way to bring back a previous perp that got away and nail him. The story that felt shoehorned in was the Ivy Bucci stuff, I just didn’t care about how that was resolved and felt they could’ve left that out, it wasn’t nearly as intense or compelling as the other 3 storylines and felt like a waste of time in what was already an overcrowded episode. If they had removed that storyline then the others could’ve been fleshed out more. 

I disliked the Rollins/Carisi scene near the end, stop trying to hint at a romance between them. Is Rollins seeing the transit cop or not? 

So while this was a solid episode overall, it left a lot of stuff open ended and it makes me wonder how the rest of the season would’ve played out and how they will open season 22. 

[CrystalBlue]

Stop trying to make Rollisi a thing, Show!  Was Amanda trying to do a Breck shampoo commercial?  Thank God Dominic, yes, Dominic is what Amanda called Sonny (I know that's his real name, but it's like she's taken it for her pet name for him) turned her down.  He must be perplexed as hell not knowing which version of Amanda he will get on any given day.

So Sir Toby didn't do an international runner, he pulled a Harvey!  Total scumbag.  I'm afraid with the delay the witnesses might do a runner themselves.  Is it really worth twisting up their lives to testify?  Barth has turned into a piece of work, but since when is it a crime to do your job as a defense attorney?  Benson's personal stamp of disapproval was unwarranted.

No Noah = yippee ki yay.

 

[dttruman]

4 hours ago, ChristiKRN said:

The hair flip was as subtle as Sir Toby’s chompers.  

Nice touch!!

[wknt3]

The Good:
Fin. They gave Ice-T some actual material and he showed he can still bring it when they do. Although why is he the only one who seems to experience real consequences from his actions?
Carisi. He actually got to some lawyering! In court! Plus he had the good sense to take a pass on Rollins,
The guest cast. They didn't always have a lot to work with, but everyone brought their A game.
No Benoah or Rollins spawn!

The Bad:
The freaking montages! Not only were they there to try to hide the fact that they had more plot than they could fit into an episode, but they were not well done. Doesn't Leight have the phone numbers for any of the CI editors?
It wasn't a 2-parter, Usually I say that as a joke, but in this case it really should have been 2 hours.
Benson hypocrisy in full effect! If they would just acknowledge it and have her admit she made mistakes getting too involved and was trying to do for Rollins and Kat what Cragen did for her, it would be nice continuity AND character growth, but I guess that's too much to ask.


Overall this was pretty good. Having too many good stories is a refreshing change of pace. It is a weird place to leave off as it was definitely setup without being a cliffhanger, but better to leave us wanting more. Still don't want 3 seasons more, but they've done much worse for finales without having a good reason like they do this year.

Edited April 24, 2020 by wknt3
put line in wrong section!

[dttruman]

On 4/23/2020 at 11:48 PM, ChristiKRN said:

Benson was out of line for calling out former judge now defense attorney Barth.  Barth is right- every defendant has the right to having a defense, no matter how despicable they may be. 

I don't know about the legal end here, but could Benson have charges filed against her for harassment or intimidation?

Why do the writers consistently put a halo over Benson, Every time they show her in these situations, it just shows how unprofessional she can be.

On 4/24/2020 at 12:40 AM, Xeliou66 said:

I liked seeing Carisi prepping the witnesses and I liked his outrage at Sir Toby not showing up. The judge was great as well. But I disliked Benson’s lecture to Barth, Barth was right, everyone deserves a defense, and I was annoyed with Benson’s condescending lecture. 

Did they go overboard with Carisi's frustration, especially since it seemed like he was doing all that work by himself? With a major trial you'd think he would have some help. When this episode was put together, was having Benson staring up at Sir Toby on the big screen with the music playing at the start and end, the utmost importance of this episode and then the rest was edited to fill in what was left of the episode?

[mommalib]

Great to see Fin back in action for real. He's the best character on this show and is extremely underutilized, like Atwater on Chicago PD. When they are highlighted it shows why they're the best.

[Gigi43]

12 hours ago, dttruman said:

Did you think that Fin's case was a little to contrived? I thought the son should have been more aware of his father's anger and how dangerous he was. It seems like any kid who sees his (her) mother get routinely beat up by his (or her) father should have some kind of animosity towards him, but there was none here.

 

Yeah. There are absolutely kids (and adults) who love their abusers anyway but they had the kid call for help to the police in the first episode and too Finn, so there is a level of understanding he was doing terrible things. The wife suing Finn... wow. I'm sure it does happen but the man had a damn knife after being jail for abuse. Finn couldn't take the chance she or the kid could get stabbed and there was no clear shot for somewhere like the leg. I wonder if the lawsuit would have been cleared up by the end of the season if not cut short?

 

I liked Kat's storyline. It was a nice, though sad, when the transwoman was told the ADA was going forward with the case and she will be taken seriously and her murdered friend will have justice. Also nice that Kat got to have that be her moment to tell her not Benson.

 

I don't care about Ivy. They called her a victim of sex trafficking and I just thought about how badly they did the scene where she was told to bring her sister because basically it shot as she turned around and trafficked her. 

 

They did too many cases and it was crammed but Finn and Kat's cases made this a good episode. Worst parts were Benson having Barth to pontificate at (shut up) and Rollins basically trying to booty call Carisi. He should never, ever, consider it after her sleeping with that guy when they traveled for a case. Kat asked her about going out, she had to go home, but it left her thirsty all episode.  

[853fisher]

I know Rollins isn’t the most popular character here, and with good reason.  But her look after Kat’s “So what are you into?  Oh wait…kids.” was one of the biggest laughs I’ve gotten from this show in a long time.  I don’t know, I guess I’m just easy.

 

On the other hand, Benson's "you're the only one who can save her?" floored me.  Pot, meet kettle.  I'm reminded of the days of T!I!P! at TWoP's boards.

 

I thought it was a fair season finale, given that wasn't its original intent.

[illdoc]

The thing that had me laughing was near the end, when Kat "confessed" to Livvy that she had talked to the suspect when Benson told her not to. She leaves and Rollins says "so, are you going to write her up?". Seriously?!!! After the stuff everyone else has pulled? "Write her up" indeed.

[MorbidPet]

An okay finale I guess. Didn't leave me completely satisfied but it wasn't intended to be the finale so with that in mind they did a good job after all. Ice was really good this episode, I love him to bits but he's def not the greatest actor. But that scene outside the apartment building was great. I find it hard they would just drop this storyline now that he's been sued. 
Nice shots throughout the episode. The Carisi/Rollins scene in his office were one of those great shots. If a scene isn't able to hold my interest I just watch the settings, lightning etc instead. 
The show kept Kat's sexuality subtle for mearly an episode. No surprise really but still a bit disappointing.  
Looking forward to season 22. You better bring me Donal Logue show!!! 

13 hours ago, dttruman said:

The guest stars I thought, tried to do their best, but what they had to do was very contrary to what they did in their previous appearances. Ivy's party girl act was so inconsistent with her family unity first personality, that she portrayed so well earlier. 

I thought we saw this side of Ivy in the previous episodes so not contrary to me at least. I thought she turned too quickly previously actually, found that a bit unbelievable but we don't really know what time passed by (I've stopped taking notes of the dates mentioned as the show sometimes gets them wrong anyways). But I'm not surprised she went down this route. Hope she can straighten herself out. I would've liked a Bucci Sr/Rollins scene at the prison. Would've wrapped that ordeal up nicely as the kidnapping is probably just another thing Rollins added to her bagage not dealt with properly. 

34 minutes ago, 853fisher said:

I know Rollins isn’t the most popular character here, and with good reason.  But her look after Kat’s “So what are you into?  Oh wait…kids.” was one of the biggest laughs I’ve gotten from this show in a long time.  I don’t know, I guess I’m just easy.

Kelli got great comedian skills. If you haven't watched The Burg I highly recommend it, you can find it on YouTube. It's not as relevant now but still entertaining imo. I'd love for them to do a 2020 version of that web serie 
And Amanda will always be my favorite character. I like the flawed and complicated characters. And the fact Kelli is an amazing actress even with bad material. 

[853fisher]

52 minutes ago, MorbidPet said:

Kelli got great comedian skills. If you haven't watched The Burg I highly recommend it, you can find it on YouTube. It's not as relevant now but still entertaining imo. I'd love for them to do a 2020 version of that web serie 
And Amanda will always be my favorite character. I like the flawed and complicated characters. And the fact Kelli is an amazing actress even with bad material. 

Thanks for the tip!  I'll have to look it up.  I've always liked Kelli "as herself," and I don't dislike Rollins as much as others.  These days she's written so inconsistently that I can just zip whatever I didn't like out of my head with relative ease.  I think if Amaro had been developed less as Stabler 2.0 and Rollins had accordingly gotten something fresher to play off of in the beginning, the character might be very different today.  When this show finally mercifully ends, I look forward to seeing what she'll do next.

[CrystalBlue]

 I love Kelli Giddish as an actress and think she's beautiful.  The character, Amanda Rollins, went sideways and IRL wouldn't have fared as well in her employment by NYPD as she has as St. Olivia's pet.  I didn't mind her somewhat unconventional relationship with Declan Murphy and I adore Donal Logue.  Not a fan of the two baby daddies story line.

[MorbidPet]

1 hour ago, 853fisher said:

Thanks for the tip!  I'll have to look it up.  I've always liked Kelli "as herself," and I don't dislike Rollins as much as others.  These days she's written so inconsistently that I can just zip whatever I didn't like out of my head with relative ease.  I think if Amaro had been developed less as Stabler 2.0 and Rollins had accordingly gotten something fresher to play off of in the beginning, the character might be very different today.  When this show finally mercifully ends, I look forward to seeing what she'll do next.

No probs 🙂 Rollins has a good fanbase. Boards like these seem to thrive on negativity though. I've been there myself so I'm not judging just stating the obvious. I used to hate on Olivia a lot. Still not a fan of that character (loved her from get-go tho, just not a fan of the holiness she's become) but being spiteful just brings yourself down so what's the point!? Your tactic is better for self preservation, just zip it out, stay with what you like.
I cringe a lot about things Amanda does or says lol but hey it makes for great drama, and I'm drawn to the dysfunction of her character. You're right, she could've become something much different. These Squadroom podcasts has made it obvious the writers loves how well Kelli does drama so it's probably why they feed it to her by the barrels. 

Okay this became off topic, sorry board. Hope you have a great weekend Fisher! 🙂 

[tennisgurl]

They could have just called this episode "Oh Yeah, That Was A Thing" because we got sequels to not one, not two, but THREE different past episodes, most notably with Harvey WE I MEAN SIR TOBY showing up again without them having to actually pay Ian McShane because, like a certain real life super rich and famous mogel caught in multiple sexual assault scandals, he is pulling the "health problems" card to keep out of the courtroom and try to intimidate witnesses, but we also get follow ups with Ivy and Rollins, Kat and the transwomen who didn't take the stand, and Finn and Joelle and poor little Andre. I liked having some follow up to those cases, but the whole episode felt really cluttered, like all of these cases needed a lot more time to really finish up, but since they didn't have time, they instead had to rely on contrivances (look, the janitor kept the guys blood covered suit!) and situations escalating super quickly (oh shit, now he has a knife!) so that they all felt like a bunch of half cases instead of a full one. In trying to do so much, they didn't do as much as they needed to.  

Those montages, complete with super dramatic inspirational choir music, were especially ridiculous. What is with the show and its weird random music videos the last few seasons?

I think of all the plots, the Finn and Kat plots were the best handled, helped by Finn and Kat being my favorite characters, along with Carisi. Those both seemed like cases that still had some story left so I am glad they followed up, even if I was sad with how the Finn story went. Finn was great (and I was worried they would drag him down and have him do something really crappy) but Joelle suing him and all the business with Andre running towards his dad who has a knife to his mothers throat, it was all so melodramatic in ways that it didn't need to be. I know that abuse victims can still love their abuser and continue to stay with them and make excuses for them, but this was a LOT. This kid is super quick to go from being terrified of his dad to being blind to him trying to stab his mother, and while yeah I can see things like that happening, especially with a little kid, it all seemed to exist just to keep the plot moving. The Kat story, while probably the most contrived when it came to the police work, was my favorite. The scene where the original victim asked if people would believe them at the end was really nice, and I thought the actress really sold her remorse and her pain over her friend. 

The other plots were...not awful, but less good. The return of Sir Toby and Olivia and Carisi trying to prepare the witnesses had its moments, but it was mostly pretty unremarkable, with lots of St. Olivia and evil people being evil and saying evil stuff. I almost thought that they were going to give the judge turned Sir Toby lawyer some dramatic backstory after she was going on about men having their lives ruined by false accusations, that her dad was ruined by false allegations or one of her sons or something, but I guess this is just the weird hill this lady wants to die on. Or, more likely, she wants all that sweet sweet evil cash. I did kind of laugh when Olivia was bringing up Pilars relationship with her agent and she was like "we only slept together like twice it was no big deal!" and Carisi and Olivia were like "the fuck?!?" The follow up with Ivy was decent enough, it does show how good it is to have a member of the SVU squad in your corner. Its weird that Rollins didn't have sharper words for Ivy's mom, considering it was her dumbass self that let her teenage daughters go off on a boat with the known sex trafficker. 

The plot with Andre made me sad that the show so rarely does episodes about kids and child abuse anymore, I miss those, as weird as that sounds. Many of the most memorable episodes of SVU in the early years were ones that involved kids, and as horrifying as they were, they were also very affecting. The most we get now are kids like Andre that are in the periphery of the "main" case or older teenage girls (who are conveniently and creepily "sexy" and usually look like college students) being taken advantage of by creepy older men. 

[kicotan]

7 hours ago, Gigi43 said:

The wife suing Finn... wow. I'm sure it does happen but the man had a damn knife after being jail for abuse.

I can’t even imagine this would happen IRL especially when he had a knife to her neck...and then called the child over so he essentially had a knife to both of their necks...yeah, no.

[Sake614]

I really Expected this to be two hours and was surprised when it wasn't. That said, was I the only one screaming ‘sit your ass DOWN Olivia!’ When she stood up in the courtroom? I actually thought she was going to yell at the judge! And as others have said, since when does a police captain have time to help prepare a witness for trial? Doesn’t she have a department to run? Cases to solve?

[HollyGoLitely333]

Am I the only one who thought this episode was a piecemeal of scenes that were left on the cutting room floor from past episodes? I can't imagine how they could have filmed so much content all before the first week of March. Maybe I don't realize how long production takes after filming. But there were reporters wearing masks so they obviously added that in  over the last few weeks. I felt like there was some green screen action involving Benson and that all of the plot lines were things that maybe could have happened in alternate versions of the original episodes but that the director decided to cut/go in a different direction. Given the fact that production halted weeks ago, wouldn't this make sense? 

Either way, I was surprised they were able to crank anything out given the circumstances. As for the actual episode, it was fine. Obviously not a "finale" but fine. I am in the minority I guess but I have always loved Rollins, shit show life and all. And I'm here for the Carisi set up if they ever do it. *ducks* I did have some trouble jogging my memory about some of the storylines they went through. It took me a few scenes before I remembered that Lakira had taken a ton of hush money at the end of that episode. I love that actress, though. I was happy to see her back on. And really glad I didn't have to see Sir Toby again. 

[wanderingstar]

Quote

Benson was out of line for calling out former judge now defense attorney Barth.  Barth is right- every defendant has the right to having a defense, no matter how despicable they may be. 

I understand what they were going for with that scene, but it just made Benson come across as super unprofessional.

[dttruman]

On 4/24/2020 at 9:42 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

Quote

Benson was out of line for calling out former judge now defense attorney Barth.  Barth is right- every defendant has the right to having a defense, no matter how despicable they may be. 

I understand what they were going for with that scene, but it just made Benson come across as super unprofessional.

I really hate it when they do this. They make her look like an altruistic crusading warrior with some type of ultimate goal. In doing so, they make other people who's jobs that may conflict with her goal look criminal or or at least less important. My description of Benson at that moment is fanatical.

On 4/24/2020 at 9:31 PM, HollyGoLitely333 said:

Am I the only one who thought this episode was a piecemeal of scenes that were left on the cutting room floor from past episodes?

I speak for myself here, but If they could start spreading out some of these good plots, they would be much better off.

On 4/24/2020 at 8:47 PM, Sake614 said:

I really Expected this to be two hours and was surprised when it wasn't. That said, was I the only one screaming ‘sit your ass DOWN Olivia!’ When she stood up in the courtroom? I actually thought she was going to yell at the judge! And as her others have said, since when does a police captain have time to help prepare a witness for trial? Doesn’t she have a department to run? Cases to solve?

Has Benson taken it upon herself to make sure that everyone does their job to her satisfaction? It's too bad the writers haven't noticed this inescapable fact. One of these days they are going to write an episode where Benson is a vigilante who kills or injures some criminal and they won't be able to come up with a good enough reason to justify it,

On 4/24/2020 at 6:33 PM, kicotan said:

On 4/24/2020 at 11:12 AM, Gigi43 said:

The wife suing Finn... wow. I'm sure it does happen but the man had a damn knife after being jail for abuse.

I can’t even imagine this would happen IRL especially when he had a knife to her neck...and then called the child over so he essentially had a knife to both of their necks...yeah, no.

I think we know that when this story line continues next fall that the mother and maybe the son will lie in front of the shooting board. But I have a feeling the son will come clean and the truth will come out.

[balmz]

10 minutes ago, dttruman said:

Has Benson taken it upon herself to make sure that everyone does their job to her satisfaction? It's too bad the writers haven't noticed this inescapable fact. One of these days they are going to write an episode where Benson is a vigilante who kills or injures some criminal and they won't be able to come up with a good enough reason to justify it,

i doubt they will ever let olivia be seen in the wrong or as the bad person

[mtlchick]

It was all over the place.  I didn't necessarily hate it but they were pulling in plots and characters from 3 separate story lines (a few coming from its own 2 parter) and it got confusing very fast.  This should have been a 2 parter in itself. 

Joelle is nuts if she thinks that lawsuit is going to get anywhere.  

[dttruman]

11 minutes ago, mtlchick said:

Joelle is nuts if she thinks that lawsuit is going to get anywhere.  

Do you think it will come down to her word against Fin's, and then it will come down to the boys testimony?

I am not sure about police protocol, but shouldn't have Fin taken a uniform with him to Joelle's apartment?

[wanderingstar]

I'm glad the season ended with Fin getting a story of his own. He was trying to do right by Joelle and Andre. Joelle is wrong for suing him, but I think it's coming from a place of her own pain and feelings of helplessness. Whenever the show returns, I hope we get a resolution to the story where she realizes that and withdraws her lawsuit against Fin.

I honestly think they could have just left out the Ivy Bucci story and kept the other three, which were more interesting.

The scene of Lakira and her friends mourning Dakota was very moving. I even liked the song that soundtracked the opening and closing scenes of the episode.

[preeya]

7 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I'm glad the season ended with Fin getting a story of his own. He was trying to do right by Joelle and Andre. Joelle is wrong for suing him, but I think it's coming from a place of her own pain and feelings of helplessness. Whenever the show returns, I hope we get a resolution to the story where she realizes that and withdraws her lawsuit against Fin.

I honestly think they could have just left out the Ivy Bucci story and kept the other three, which were more interesting.

The scene of Lakira and her friends mourning Dakota was very moving. I even liked the song that soundtracked the opening and closing scenes of the episode.

IMO, she using it to get a windfall payday at the expense of the NYPD. Most likely initiated by some "ambulance chasing" lawyer. It was s "good shoot" and Finn will probably be exonerated while Joelle will get some $$$ as a settlement (or not).

[dttruman]

30 minutes ago, preeya said:

IMO, she using it to get a windfall payday at the expense of the NYPD. Most likely initiated by some "ambulance chasing" lawyer. It was s "good shoot" and Finn will probably be exonerated while Joelle will get some $$$ as a settlement (or not).

I will have a fit if SVU is assigned to investigate the shooting, and Benson leads the investigation.

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, dttruman said:

I will have a fit if SVU is assigned to investigate the shooting, and Benson leads the investigation.

I have no idea if it will, but if I were you. I'd prepare myself. As I said, reality left SVU and the franchise years ago...

[dttruman]

2 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I have no idea if it will, but if I were you. I'd prepare myself. As I said, reality left SVU and the franchise years ago...

They probably won't make it obvious or official, but I'll bet $1.00, that Benson gets very involved in the investigation. In fact, they will probably have Fin turn into a sniveling mess and say he did it on purpose. Benson will use all her courage and experience, along with some very imaginative writers and the support of a few million gullible  viewers to exonerate Fin.

[Xeliou66]

6 hours ago, dttruman said:

They probably won't make it obvious or official, but I'll bet $1.00, that Benson gets very involved in the investigation. In fact, they will probably have Fin turn into a sniveling mess and say he did it on purpose. Benson will use all her courage and experience, along with some very imaginative writers and the support of a few million gullible  viewers to exonerate Fin.

We won’t see any investigation - the viewers saw the whole situation and know it was a justified shooting, so an investigation would be a waste of time and IAB would quickly clear Fin. The lawsuit is a different matter but I doubt they will drag it out since, again, the viewers know it has no basis, I bet that by the time the show returns they will just mention the lawsuit has been dropped. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Xeliou66

[wanderingstar]

On 4/25/2020 at 3:47 PM, dttruman said:

I will have a fit if SVU is assigned to investigate the shooting, and Benson leads the investigation.

That'd be IAB, right? And now I'm mad again about how they wrote Tucker out of the show.

[ChristiKRN]

I agree with everyone who said that this should have been a 2-parter or 2-hour episode.  I think that they could have just focused on Kat, Carisi, And Fin’s cases.  Benson was way too involved in Carisi’s Case; it was like she had joined the DA’s Office.  Benson  actually took more of a leadership role with Fin and Kat;  I found it refreshing and more appropriate that she acted more like Cragen would have.  I’m not sure what the purpose of Rollins being involved with Ivy Bucci was other than to give her something to do; this part of the episode could have been dropped altogether.  

What are everyone’s thoughts on Kat? I actually like her; it seems she is not very popular at least in the internet world (at least from what I have read) .  She does have a tendency to deviate from the rules but hasn’t completely derailed as of yet and I hope she doesn’t; I’m hoping she is just on the learning curve.   She is empathetic, doesn’t seem to need anger management classes, and doesn’t have any major personal issues. I hope they continue to develop her character along this tract.  It’s refreshing. 

I wonder if they will have more episodes next season or start earlier next season since this year was cut short.  I also wonder what they had planned for the last 4 episodes; will those plans be scrapped or just carry over to next season? 

[dttruman]

On 4/26/2020 at 4:11 PM, ChristiKRN said:

What are everyone’s thoughts on Kat? I actually like her; it seems she is not very popular at least in the internet world (at least from what I have read) .  She does have a tendency to deviate from the rules but hasn’t completely derailed as of yet and I hope she doesn’t; I’m hoping she is just on the learning curve.   She is empathetic, doesn’t seem to need anger management classes, and doesn’t have any major personal issues. I hope they continue to develop her character along this tract.  It’s refreshing

Well it's kind of hard to make an accurate evaluation, considering we are dealing mostly with Benson an Rollins. I don't want to prejudge because of what I know about the agenda of the show. It just seems like they favor the female characters and whatever controversial situation they are placed in, they some how come out smelling like a rose.

"She does have a tendency to deviate from the rules". When you are in vice, you are on your own a lot. So you have to think on your feet and sometimes those judgement calls stray away from the absolute rules.

If she does get into some kind of trouble it will probably at the expense of Benson or Rollins to make them look good.

On 4/25/2020 at 8:32 PM, Xeliou66 said:

We won’t see any investigation - the viewers saw the whole situation and know it was a justified shooting, so an investigation would be a waste of time and IAB would quickly clear Fin.

I know it, you know it, and the rest of the viewers know it, but the writers will milk it for all the drama they can. They will make IAB roast him with prejudgement and "not innocent until proven guilty" crap. Then it will be Benson coming to the rescue, she has a "heart to heart" with Joelle and gets her to drop the lawsuit.

[CrystalBlue]

On 4/24/2020 at 8:47 PM, Sake614 said:

I really Expected this to be two hours and was surprised when it wasn't. That said, was I the only one screaming ‘sit your ass DOWN Olivia!’ When she stood up in the courtroom? I actually thought she was going to yell at the judge! And as others have said, since when does a police captain have time to help prepare a witness for trial? Doesn’t she have a department to run? Cases to solve?

Don't complain, it could've been worse.  They could have had Mama O reading bedtime stories to Noah.  😄

On 4/26/2020 at 8:45 PM, dttruman said:

I know it, you know it, and the rest of the viewers know it, but the writers will milk it for all the drama they can. They will make IAB roast him with prejudgement and "not innocent until proven guilty" crap. Then it will be Benson coming to the rescue, she has a "heart to heart" with Joelle and gets her to drop the lawsuit.

If they do revisit this story line, I totally agree that a heart to heart between St. O and Joelle will be the resolution because Benson has to save the day every day (meaning every episode).  I can just see Fin thanking her now.

[dttruman]

4 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Don't complain, it could've been worse.  They could have had Mama O reading bedtime stories to Noah.  😄

It's all over for me, if and when she brings him to court with her and they both jump up and complain about the justice.

[Joe Hellandback]

On 4/23/2020 at 9:11 PM, dttruman said:

Well it's off to a dubious start, Benson is lecturing Rollins on official police procedure concerning the Bucci kid. How many times has Benson broken protocol.

I thought both of the Bucci girls were portrayed as young innocent girls that were seduced into the party life of drugs, sex, and money. They both were suppose to testify against what's his name. Now, one is an out of control party girl? Not very consistent are the writers?

But the whole idea of this is that having been seduced into that lifestyle she's now addicted to it?

 

1. Fin gets something to do, about time and nice shooting. But you should always give them 2, double tap. 

2. Yes, very realistic that the kid still loves his dad even if he is brutal. I thought for a moment they were actually going to kill the little boy but thankfully not. 

3. Yes, police get sued even for righteous shoots, hope this continues to a court case.  

4. Kinda liked the fact that the girl from the Connor case didn't decide to go home and become a nun, Rollins perfectly right to leave her in lockup all night. 

5. Carisi freaking over the big case is good stuff, plenty riding on it for him.

6. When are they going to drop the Rollins/Carisi stuff, no one is interested. 

7. Liked the courtroom stuff, haven't had enough lately. 

8. If they have Ian McShane back on the show they must use the 'Judas' gag at some stage?

9. Effective tactic from Harv…., keep stringing things out so the witnesses get sick of it and give it up. 

10. Who the hell does Benson think she is having a go at the defence solicitor? I would love a scene where the 2 have a real head to head and she tells Benson where to get off. 

Overall pretty good 8/10

[Route66]

On 4/25/2020 at 11:54 AM, dttruman said:

I really hate it when they do this. They make her look like an altruistic crusading warrior with some type of ultimate goal. In doing so, they make other people who's jobs that may conflict with her goal look criminal or or at least less important. My description of Benson at that moment is fanatical.

Or. As TWOP used to say, Benson T!I!P!

That's been my consistent issue with the character. She just cares more than everyone else. 

I really hope Kat's sexuality isn't a big deal. Huang was gay but it was never like "I'm so glad we solved the case so I can hit the bathhouse." I don't want to see it mentioned every episode because that winds up looking like they're saying all bisexuals are slutty and think about nothing but sex.

Same with Lakira. First off, it's not necessary to have all transwomen speak like Miss J from America's Next Top Model. Secondly, while it's understandable why Lakira took the payoff and recanted, there's a good chance that led to the subsequent murder. Yes it's complicated, but throughout the series the detectives always tell victims they have to testify so the perp doesn't hurt someone else. Even with children, they're all like "I know you're nine years old and a traumatized rape victim but we need your help so he won't hurt another little girl." At no point is Kat ever frustrated that she pursued Davies to help Lakira and Lakira recanting put him back on the street to murder Dakota.

 

 

[dttruman]

On 5/8/2020 at 3:15 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

But the whole idea of this is that having been seduced into that lifestyle she's now addicted to it?

That's the point, the daughter keeps jumping back and forth. It's a prime characteristic of soap opera type plot lines.

On 5/8/2020 at 4:41 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

1. Fin gets something to do, about time and nice shooting. But you should always give them 2, double tap. 

2. Yes, very realistic that the kid still loves his dad even if he is brutal. I thought for a moment they were actually going to kill the little boy but thankfully not. 

3. Yes, police get sued even for righteous shoots, hope this continues to a court case.  

If Fin goes the Double Tap route, would that help wife's lawsuit? Here in the USA, some people believe the police should only shoot the suspect once, especially the family of the suspect. The claim is the police are too overzealous and kill-happy.

On 5/8/2020 at 4:41 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

9. Effective tactic from Harv…., keep stringing things out so the witnesses get sick of it and give it up. 

10. Who the hell does Benson think she is having a go at the defence solicitor? I would love a scene where the 2 have a real head to head and she tells Benson where to get off. 

How often can a rich guy like Harv and Sir Toby get away with that tactic, where the proceedings are ready to begin, but then a sudden medical reason pops up and he can't appear?

As for Benson, it's just another one of her grandstand moments. Her thirst for justice has her one step away from vigilante justice.

A question for you, is that a form of harassment or intimidation that Benson might be accused  of?

On 5/8/2020 at 5:23 AM, Route66 said:

Yes it's complicated, but throughout the series the detectives always tell victims they have to testify so the perp doesn't hurt someone else. Even with children, they're all like "I know you're nine years old and a traumatized rape victim but we need your help so he won't hurt another little girl." At no point is Kat ever frustrated that she pursued Davies to help Lakira and Lakira recanting put him back on the street to murder Dakota.

They have used that gimmick more often than not in their episodes, when the victim is reluctant to testify and it seems like the police are always the ones to be blamed because they put too much pressure on the victims to testify.

The reason why Kat isn't frustrated maybe that she came up from Vice. Where life on the streets is tough and you develop a thick skin and do your job coldly but objectively.

[Route66]

4 hours ago, dttruman said:

 

The reason why Kat isn't frustrated maybe that she came up from Vice. Where life on the streets is tough and you develop a thick skin and do your job coldly but objectively.

Objectively, sure. Like I said it's definitely understandable why Lakira just took the money, but recanting led to Dakota getting killed and likely other victims, as Davies was discussed as being a regular.