S03.E17: An Academic Crime and a More Romantic Taco Bell

[BitterApple]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

Even I he were completely in the right, why would he do that to a mentor who has been nothing but kind and helpful to him?

 

Especially considering it was Dr. Sturgis who pulled strings so Sheldon could get a free trip to California with his dad. 

[Yeah No]

21 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Are you not understanding the fact that Sheldon tried to gut his career?  He literally called the university and cried "Plagiarism."  Yes, supposedly respects is the correct phrasing because you wouldn't do that to someone you actually respected.

The reason Sheldon did that is because he was incredibly insulted at the prospect of only being reduced to a mere footnote.  Plus Sturgis' reaction was to shut him down so totally and without any other recourse that his immature emotional reaction was to "get him back" for that, hence trying to get him discredited.  If Sturgis had not reacted so negatively and finally, and if he had given him another better sounding option Sheldon most likely would not have done that.  If a child came to me wanting top billing with me in that situation I would see it as coming from a child and not expected him to be realistic about it, so I would never have shut him down and reacted like I'm dealing with an adult, but taken him aside and given him a pretty attractive sounding option, like being mentioned in the preface.  I can't recall any specifics but I'm sure I've seen Sheldon being convinced to consider other options like this before on this show by his parents and Meemaw, so it's not like it's impossible.  It's just that Sturgis is himself emotionally a child so he reacted like a child.  And that's IMO why they're in this situation.  In fact, I'm sure that at a later time this issue will be resolved by some more adult person getting involved and mediating it for them.  And I'm sure this doesn't mean Sturgis is getting written out of the show either.

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

If Sturgis had not reacted so negatively and finally, and if he had given him another better sounding option Sheldon most likely would not have done that.

Maybe that was the only option he was willing to give him.  Maybe that's what was appropriate.

 

6 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

If a child came to me wanting top billing with me in that situation I would see it as coming from a child and not expected him to be realistic about it,

Sheldon is not a typical child.  Sheldon is someone who regularly reads scientific papers and, by his own admission, the footnotes.  He would know if this was the normal way his type of contribution was handled.

 

8 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

so I would never have shut him down and reacted like I'm dealing with an adult,

Sheldon has previously requested that he be treated as an adult and that Dr. Sturgis not talk down to him.

[tessaray]

I have to hope that Sheldon (still being a kid emotionally) didn't realize the enormity of what his accusation could entail. But Dr. Sturgis surely did, as did Dr. Linkletter and I'm glad they put Sheldon in his place.  

This episode did have some charming scenes with Missy and Georgie and Veronica but it left a bitter taste.  

[anna0852]

Nope, sometimes people get told 'no'. Compromises and negotiations sometimes don't happen and aren't required. The footnote offer was generous enough. One of the critical lessons that Sheldon needs to learn is that he's going to hear No in his life and a lot of the time it will be non-negotiable. 

Taking those classes is a privilege, not a right. Abuse it and lose it.

[Yeah No]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Maybe that was the only option he was willing to give him.  Maybe that's what was appropriate..

Whether or not it was appropriate, there are more successful ways to deal with people, esp. children in situations like this.  I don't think the way Sturgis reacted to it would have been successful with anyone.  He was the adult in the situation and didn't act like one.  I don't get it that suddenly Sturgis' immature reactions are being supported.  This is typical of him, but it's not mature, IMHO.  He could have lead in with something like, "I understand and agree that you should get more credit for this than a footnote because I couldn't have achieved the successful result I got without you, but I can't share equal billing with you.  We can work it out together at a later time".  It would have been as simple as that and I am sure that Sheldon would not have reacted the way he did in response.  But Sturgis himself is too immature to be able to share credit with anyone, which reminds me of an episode of BBT that I won't spoil but will mention in a spoiler box:

Spoiler

The episode of BBT where Penny discovers the comet but Raj wants to take the credit for it - I don't know too many people that would have sided with Raj that he should get sole credit in that case, and Penny was seen by most of the audience as deserving equal credit like she wanted, so why is Sheldon not getting similar respect for what he did just because he's an obnoxious kid?

 

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Sheldon is not a typical child.  Sheldon is someone who regularly reads scientific papers and, by his own admission, the footnotes.  He would know if this was the normal way his type of contribution was handled.

Even adults that know what is considered normal to be put in the footnotes might disagree on what should get more mention in gray area situations like this.  In this case the outcome and very success of the paper was completely dependent on Sheldon's correction.  So I can see why he might see that as deserving more credit than in a footnote, whether or not he knows what is commonly acceptable in footnotes.  He's not just being a self-centered snot here - I think he has good reason to feel that way.

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

Sheldon has previously requested that he be treated as an adult and that Dr. Sturgis not talk down to him.

Dr. Sturgis acts like an immature child himself regardless of how Sheldon wants him to treat him.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Yeah No

[Katy M]

55 minutes ago, tessaray said:

I have to hope that Sheldon (still being a kid emotionally) didn't realize the enormity of what his accusation could entail. But Dr. Sturgis surely did, as did Dr. Linkletter and I'm glad they put Sheldon in his place.  

Dr. Linkletter gave him a chance to back down before he told John, though.

Dr Linkletter; This kind of accusation could have real consequences. I'd consider my next steps very carefully.

Sheldon: You're no help. Put me through to your supervisor.
 

He did allow Dr Linkletter to talk to Sheldon first, but probably only because he thought he would get what he wanted.  Honestly, if Sheldon had called Dr. Linkletter and he had told Sheldon that there were serious consequences, and Sheldon had asked what they were and then said never mind, that would have been a kid not knowing the consequences.

[Katy M]

45 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I don't get it that suddenly Sturgis' immature reactions are being supported. 

Dr. Sturgis was snippy.  Sheldon retaliated by trying to torpedo the man's career.  There's a high level of disparity in the two actions.

[rmontro]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

Are you not understanding the fact that Sheldon tried to gut his career?  He literally called the university and cried "Plagiarism." 

I don't think Sheldon intended to try to gut his career.  It's just that he wanted credit and was willing to go to any lengths to get it - he didn't really care about the consequences.  If someone (in this case Dr. Sturgis) got bulldozed in the process, that wasn't really his concern.  Now if Dr. Sturgis had been fired over the incident, we might have had a scene where Sheldon felt bad about it - "I didn't mean for him to get fired".  Or maybe not.

Plagiarism sounds off base here anyway.  Sheldon was being given credit in the article - it just wasn't as much credit as Sheldon wanted.  I don't know if you can be considered a plagiarist because of the level of credit you give someone, at least not in this case.  Maybe Sheldon could have gotten a lawyer and sued for co-authorship, I don't really know how this works.

Dr. Sturgis does not have a great deal of social experience, and even less with children I suspect.  Considering that, I'm actually impressed with how well he interacts with people.  He seems to have a very positive attitude.  But if he dealt with Sheldon incorrectly, I'd just say that's pointing out that brilliant physicists have big egos.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I don't agree with that.  Sheldon is a child and if handled skillfully he could have been made to compromise, in my opinion.  He supposedly respects Dr. Sturgis and the right words and actions coming from his superior and mentor could have made him see that co-authorship is too much to ask but that maybe an honorable mention in the preface with credit given where credit was due would be more appropriate.  Sturgis didn't give him any other option than just a mere footnote as a contributor.  If he had given him this other choice in the right way I think Sheldon might have seen the light.  I don't think he is THAT rigid.

Sheldon is a child but he doesn’t interact with Dr. Sturgis as a child. If Sheldon is going to be in the academic world and expects to be treated as a colleague he really can’t pick and chose when he’s a child and when is an equal. If he can’t handle that he shouldn’t be in that world. That is up to his parents to make that call. 

The one person I would say failed in this situation was actually Connie. She is Sheldon’s guardian at the college and she chose to placate him rather than handling it or letting Mary and George know so they could handle it.  

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

I don't think Sheldon intended to try to gut his career.  It's just that he wanted credit and was willing to go to any lengths to get it - he didn't really care about the consequences.  If someone (in this case Dr. Sturgis) got bulldozed in the process, that wasn't really his concern.  Now if Dr. Sturgis had been fired over the incident, we might have had a scene where Sheldon felt bad about it - "I didn't mean for him to get fired".  Or maybe not.

Sheldon is vindictive. He’s not very effective at it but he does enjoy making people pay. He may not have thought out the full consequences but I absolutely think he wanted to severally hurt Dr. Sturgis. 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Guest

[Beany Malone]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

I don't think Sheldon intended to try to gut his career.  It's just that he wanted credit and was willing to go to any lengths to get it - he didn't really care about the consequences. 

Which is also a strong indicator that Sheldon, for all his brain power, is still a kid.  Studies show that one of the biggest reasons adolescents make bad choices is because their brains haven't developed.  In effect they think with their emotions.  

21 minutes ago, Dani said:

Sheldon is a child but he doesn’t interact with Dr. Sturgis as a child. If Sheldon is going to be in the academic world and expects to be treated as a colleague he really can’t pick and chose. If he can’t handle that he shouldn’t be in the world.

Adults who interact with Sheldon who think just because he's super smart that must mean he can be reasoned with as an adult are going to be disappointed.  It's really not up to Sheldon to set the boundaries and expectations - that's up to the adults, as you point out his parents and Connie, but also the professors and administrators at the university.  They want the cachet of having the genius kid so they're going to have to figure out how to deal with that kid.  I honestly don't think that falls on the kid.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Beany Malone said:

Adults who interact with Sheldon who think just because he's super smart that must mean he can be reasoned with as an adult are going to be disappointed.  It's really not up to Sheldon to set the boundaries and expectations - that's up to the adults, as you point out his parents and Connie, but also the professors and administrators at the university.  They want the cachet of having the genius kid so they're going to have to figure out how to deal with that kid.  I honestly don't think that falls on the kid.

I only skimmed some posts but I didn’t see anyone say that it fell on the kid? Anyway Dr.  Sturgis did establish boundaries and expectations. Sheldon just didn’t like those boundaries. 

I do think that all the adults around Sheldon are failing him. Through their personal interactions Dr. Strugis has blurred the lines with Sheldon in a way that created this situation. In this episode he reasserted himself as a authority figure rather than a friend and colleague. That was the right choice and Sheldon probably shouldn’t be allowed back into his old class because it is would be a disservice to him. 

[Bort]

30 minutes ago, Dani said:

I do think that all the adults around Sheldon are failing him

I definitely agree with this. Sheldon routinely throws these types of fits and his parents and schoolteachers often cave because it’s easier than fighting him on it. 

[Chit Chat]

Sheldon's problem is that even when he's reprimanded (when George told him not to call Dr. Sturgis a bonehead and reminded him of past incidents in which Sheldon was rude), Sheldon is either incapable of being tactful with people, or he's just so stubborn that he doesn't care what comes out of his mouth.  He always falls back on the excuse of not being able to read social cues, but for someone as smart as Sheldon, you'd think that he would've improved in this area after so many years of Mary & the entire family telling him what a jerk he can be, but alas, we know that this trait will dominate his interactions with others.  

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, ChitChat said:

Sheldon's problem is that even when he's reprimanded (when George told him not to call Dr. Sturgis a bonehead and reminded him of past incidents in which Sheldon was rude), Sheldon is either incapable of being tactful with people, or he's just so stubborn that he doesn't care what comes out of his mouth.  He always falls back on the excuse of not being able to read social cues, but for someone as smart as Sheldon, you'd think that he would've improved in this area after so many years of Mary & the entire family telling him what a jerk he can be, but alas, we know that this trait will dominate his interactions with others.  

And this is my issue with giving him a pass because  "he's a little boy."  This stuff has come up before.  He's been told.  Ergo, he knows better.  

[Yeah No]

4 hours ago, Dani said:

Sheldon is a child but he doesn’t interact with Dr. Sturgis as a child. If Sheldon is going to be in the academic world and expects to be treated as a colleague he really can’t pick and chose when he’s a child and when is an equal. If he can’t handle that he shouldn’t be in that world. That is up to his parents to make that call. 

I don't see that at all.  I never thought Sheldon interacts with Dr. Sturgis as an adult.  He may think he does but I don't think most other people that deal with him think so either, nor should they.  Plus, I agree with the quote below:

4 hours ago, Beany Malone said:

Which is also a strong indicator that Sheldon, for all his brain power, is still a kid.  Studies show that one of the biggest reasons adolescents make bad choices is because their brains haven't developed.  In effect they think with their emotions.  

Adults who interact with Sheldon who think just because he's super smart that must mean he can be reasoned with as an adult are going to be disappointed.  It's really not up to Sheldon to set the boundaries and expectations - that's up to the adults, as you point out his parents and Connie, but also the professors and administrators at the university.  They want the cachet of having the genius kid so they're going to have to figure out how to deal with that kid.  I honestly don't think that falls on the kid.

I agree with you 100%, and in this case Sturgis is failing at dealing with him.  That's at the core of my position on this.

 

[Katy M]

13 hours ago, Yeah No said:

don't see that at all.  I never thought Sheldon interacts with Dr. Sturgis as an adult.  He may think he does but I don't think most other people that deal with him think so either, nor should they. 

Well, fine then.  When I was a kid and you asked a teacher something, and the teacher said, "no,"  that was the end of that.  

[rmontro]

19 hours ago, Beany Malone said:

Which is also a strong indicator that Sheldon, for all his brain power, is still a kid.  Studies show that one of the biggest reasons adolescents make bad choices is because their brains haven't developed.  In effect they think with their emotions.  

He's definitely a kid, but I think his behavior is more about him being Sheldon than about being a kid.  I can easily picture adult Sheldon in this exact same situation, acting in exactly the same way.  He's selfish and egotistical.

Of course the time to nip this sort of thing in the bud is when he is a child.  As has been said, the adults around him are failing him, at least in some ways.  Children are rarely raised perfectly, no matter how good the intentions.  At least Dr. Sturgis has drawn a line with him and is unwilling to accept certain behaviors.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I don't see that at all.  I never thought Sheldon interacts with Dr. Sturgis as an adult.  He may think he does but I don't think most other people that deal with him think so either, nor should they.  Plus, I agree with the quote below:

I didn’t say as an adult but as a academic equal. To me that is an ageless designation. Sheldon wants to be viewed as a physicist first and foremost and if he can’t handle that he doesn’t belong in that world without adequate supervision. It’s not up to the professors or other students to adjust to Sheldon’s unique needs as a child. The problem is his parents view Sheldon’s academic world as something he needs to manage rather than continuing to parent him in that setting. 
 

Prepare the child for the path rather than the path for the child. Sheldon’s parents are doing neither and letting Sheldon fumble his way down his unique path. 

[Katy M]

13 minutes ago, Dani said:

The problem is his parents view Sheldon’s academic world as something he needs to manage rather than continuing to parent him in that setting. 
 

Prepare the child for the path rather than the path for the child. Sheldon’s parents are doing neither and letting Sheldon fumble his way down his unique path. 

To be fair, I don't think his parents have the know-how to properly prepare him.  It's not only that they haven't attended prestigious scientific colleges, but also that Sheldon fights them every step of the way when they do try to correct him.

Sheldon messed up and as far as we know he's going to have to accept the consequences to his actions.  Hopefully Mary (I don't think George would) won't try to fix this for him.  

Sometimes the best way to parent is to just let the real world smack the kid in the butt.  Part of the reason that Sheldon doesn't listen to his parents is because he doesn't think they know what they're talking about.  Coming from Dr. Sturgis, it actually means more and may stick a bit more.

[Beany Malone]

17 minutes ago, Dani said:

I didn’t say as an adult but as a academic equal. To me that is an ageless designation. Sheldon wants to be viewed as a physicist first and foremost and if he can’t handle that he doesn’t belong in that world without adequate supervision.

Sheldon isn't a physicist yet,  He's still years away from that.  Which is one of the reasons his behavior is only excusable because he is still a child.  Adult Sheldon doing the same thing would be a whole 'nother kettle of fish.  That said Sturgis behaved badly too IMO.  Sheldon did make a significant contribution and he deserved more credit than he appears to be getting.

[rmontro]

39 minutes ago, Beany Malone said:

That said Sturgis behaved badly too IMO.  Sheldon did make a significant contribution and he deserved more credit than he appears to be getting.

I don't see any evidence that Dr. Sturgis is shorting Sheldon on credit.  Sheldon made a contribution, but Dr. Sturgis said he had been working on that paper for 20 years.  We don't really know what is in the paper exactly.  Sheldon's suggestion may have been a key point, but I'm not sure that entitles him to co-authorship.  It appears Dr. Linkletter agreed.

As far as I remember, Sheldon has not had a paper published at this point.  You would think he would be happy with his name being published in an article, even if it is "just" in a footnote.  Or short of that, he could be happy with knowing that he helped a friend.

[anna0852]

48 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Sheldon messed up and as far as we know he's going to have to accept the consequences to his actions.  Hopefully Mary (I don't think George would) won't try to fix this for him

Based on next weeks previews Mary is at least trying to soften the blow. Which is the exact wrong tact to take.

[Beany Malone]

2 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Sheldon's suggestion may have been a key point, but I'm not sure that entitles him to co-authorship.  It appears Dr. Linkletter agreed.

Absolutely agree that he is not entitled to co-authorship but I'll have to watch this episode again because my impression was that his contribution was significant enough that Sturgis could not have published without his help.  To me that does suggest Sheldon deserves more recognition than a footnote but maybe I'm remembering it wrong.

[Driad]

8 minutes ago, Beany Malone said:

my impression was that his contribution was significant enough that Sturgis could not have published without his help.

IIRC, Sheldon found an error and helped correct it.  If Sheldon had not found the error, an academic reviewer would probably find it, and Sturgis could presumably correct it by himself.

[Katy M]

37 minutes ago, Beany Malone said:

Absolutely agree that he is not entitled to co-authorship but I'll have to watch this episode again because my impression was that his contribution was significant enough that Sturgis could not have published without his help.  To me that does suggest Sheldon deserves more recognition than a footnote but maybe I'm remembering it wrong.

I think we're supposed to go with what the show is telling us.  The show has shown Dr Sturgis as an honest, generous man. He's not egotistical by any means.  Thre's nothing to suggest that he would shortchange Sheldon or anyone else.  The show also made a point to have Dr. Linkletter (no friend of Dr. Sturgis's) say that a footnote sounded like what he was entitled to.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

To be fair, I don't think his parents have the know-how to properly prepare him.  It's not only that they haven't attended prestigious scientific colleges, but also that Sheldon fights them every step of the way when they do try to correct him.

To be clear I’m really not blaming the adults in Sheldon’s life for failing him because they are completely ill equipped to handle him. One thing I like about the show is that explains why Sheldon is the way he is without really pointing blame. Everyone is doing what they think is best with a nearly impossible situation. 

2 hours ago, Beany Malone said:

Sheldon isn't a physicist yet,  He's still years away from that.  Which is one of the reasons his behavior is only excusable because he is still a child.  Adult Sheldon doing the same thing would be a whole 'nother kettle of fish.  That said Sturgis behaved badly too IMO.  Sheldon did make a significant contribution and he deserved more credit than he appears to be getting.

I think it’s more explainable rather than excusable. Sheldon is living in a world not designed for him. Everyone could do better to support him and help him learn but it’s really not something they know how to do. 

[Chit Chat]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

To be fair, I don't think his parents have the know-how to properly prepare him. 

I agree.  I've always said that I thought they did the best they could with the information they had.  They didn't have Google available to look up info on how to help him, and it appears that they were limited within their medical community on getting advice on how to help him.  We know that he was tested and he wasn't crazy (Mary's words), so that left them having to navigate Sheldon's peculiarities pretty much on their own.  He can be exhausting! 

[Bort]

Ironically, if George or Mary knew how to operate Sheldon's computer, they might be able to find some help on the Usenet groups.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 3/6/2020 at 10:30 AM, Bobbin said:

But is he also on the autism spectrum? The flaw in that theory is that while he thoughtlessly uses both family and friends, he also is depressed at the thought of being friendless and alone.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you under the false impression that autistic people don't get depressed by the idea of being friendless or alone? Because we do.

Also, we are no more or less likely than neurotypical people to be thoughtless. That's a personality trait. Most people, autistic or otherwise, while they may not realize how their behavior affects others, do care how their behavior affects others. And therefore some of us spend a great deal of our time worrying about it. Thoughtless people (like Sheldon often is), whether autistic or neurotypical, don't care.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 3/6/2020 at 5:17 PM, BitterApple said:

Every time I see Oregon Trail, I'm taken back to third grade. My class was addicted to that and Clue. 

Oh yeah, I played Oregon Trail a lot in middle school, though it was a later version than this with more advanced graphics.

I think we may also had Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego? and Where in the U.S.A. is Carmen Sandiego?, but I might be remembering those ones from my personal computer.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Noneofyourbusiness

[possibilities]

The thing about Sheldon is, he doesn't care about how he affects other people. He doesn't respect other people. he feels genuinely superior. He doesn't just think he's academically smarter, he thinks he's more valuable. He is capable of researching things he's interested in, and after having been given feedback that he's unkind, rude, etc. he has made no effort to learn tact or other social skills. He regards other people as objects to be manipulated, but he doesn't actually care abou ttheir feelings.

Also, he could research what appropriate credit is, and how these situations are handled, rather than deciding he wants what he wants and dismissing anyone else's point of view. This is not a random decision, there are guidelines and traditions, and if Sheldon truly deserved more credit, he could make a case based on the facts.

I get the argument that he's a child, but he's not a typical child and he has abilities and skills and avenues other than what he's pursuing, and it's not like he hasn't been shown to use those possibilities when he wants to. And it's not like he hasn't been warned.

I think Meemaw didn't realize he would go nuclear and cause worse trouble, because if you react to every single time Sheldon complains about something, you will never do anything else but react.

I think Sturgis didn't take it more seriously because he thought he'd earned Sheldon's respect and that they had a good relationship, and that after he had conveyed to him the way things work, that Sheldon would calm down and drop it once his disappointment worse off.

I think George thought he'd handled it when he told Sheldon not to be insulting.

Linkletter also told him he was out of line.

I'm not sure what else the adults were supposed to do, other than monitor his activities every second, not let him use the phone, pre-emptively ground him, lecture him from dawn til dusk. THEY TOLD HIM. He ignored them. Kids do that. They get into trouble. It happens. Sometimes they just can't be kept from making mistakes and have to take consequences for their rebelliousness. Better that Sheldon learn that at age 10 or 11 than wait until he's 16 or 30.

--

I like Georgie more and more all the time. He was kind of a jerk in the beginning, but he's shaping up into a very likeable character. He's trying so hard in so many ways-- with his business schemes, and now with his social life. I like seeing him be earnest about these things, because his lack of interest in school or his family made it seem like he was just a sullen brat at first. But now I think he's just the kind of person who doesn't fit in with his family any more than Sheldon does, and he does better and better the more he strikes out on his own path.

 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 3/7/2020 at 11:20 AM, Yeah No said:

 In fact, I'm sure that at a later time this issue will be resolved by some more adult person getting involved and mediating it for them.  And I'm sure this doesn't mean Sturgis is getting written out of the show either.

Yeah, I think Dr. Sturgis should have involved Sheldon's parents and gotten them to help him make him see reason and that it would be especially strange for someone his age to be given a co-author credit. Even if they're not scientists, they don't have to be in order to see Sturgis's point and tell Sheldon he was being unreasonable. Sheldon has caved when they've put their feet down or explained things to him before.

It would be appropriate for them as his parents to know what happened. As it stands, Sheldon just had one conversation with Connie about it in the car, and no one told Mary or George what was going on (while it was happening; obviously, they'll have heard by next episode).

29 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Also, he could research what appropriate credit is, and how these situations are handled, rather than deciding he wants what he wants and dismissing anyone else's point of view. This is not a random decision, there are guidelines and traditions, and if Sheldon truly deserved more credit, he could make a case based on the facts.

Yeah, exactly. Sheldon supposedly likes rules, so if there are rules about the level and nature of his contribution he ought to be able to find them. If he did deserve more than a footnote, he should make the effort to make a logical argument. And if he can't have what he wanted, then he has to accept whatever the rule is, like everyone else.

10 hours ago, Katy M said:

Well, fine then.  When I was a kid and you asked a teacher something, and the teacher said, "no,"  that was the end of that.  

I think they interact more like two children, given that Dr. Sturgis is young at heart.

5 hours ago, rmontro said:

I don't see any evidence that Dr. Sturgis is shorting Sheldon on credit.  Sheldon made a contribution, but Dr. Sturgis said he had been working on that paper for 20 years.  We don't really know what is in the paper exactly.  Sheldon's suggestion may have been a key point, but I'm not sure that entitles him to co-authorship.  It appears Dr. Linkletter agreed.

But Beany Malone didn't say Sheldon was entitled to co-authorship, just to more credit than he was getting. A footnote sounds both easy to miss and like it might just say "the author would like to acknowledge Sheldon Cooper" without saying what he did. Something near the front would perhaps be better.

5 hours ago, Driad said:

IIRC, Sheldon found an error and helped correct it.  If Sheldon had not found the error, an academic reviewer would probably find it, and Sturgis could presumably correct it by himself.

That academic reviewer would have to see why the figures were wrong, which apparently required advanced physics knowledge that even Sturgis himself didn't register at first. Sheldon then not only pointed out the error but had a long brainstorming session with Sturgis thinking of ways to calculate the neutrino thing differently, and proposing entire different underlying scientific premises for the theory so that the result would resolve properly.

Which is more than a bit of work, and without Sheldon the paper would have either been sent back to the drawing board for a solution Sturgis may never have come up with, or been published and been an embarrassment. But it's not enough for him to be co-author, when it was Sturgis's theory in the first place and he had done twenty years of foundational work towards it without which there would be no theory and no paper.

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

The show has shown Dr Sturgis as an honest, generous man. He's not egotistical by any means.

People can be honest and generous in most things, but academic credit is still something scientists get funny about. Professional reputation is a whole 'nother thing from daily life and calls on a whole 'nother side of oneself. If there's one thing about himself a man like Dr. Sturgis who knows he is awkward has pride in, it's his work and physics abilities.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Bali]

On 3/6/2020 at 5:02 PM, Ms Lark said:

I loved Missy with her Mom, but I really loved Missy blowing up the "girl" trophy. Hah.

ETA: Also noticed Missy playing "The Oregon Trail" on Sheldon's computer: "Janice has cholera." (Yes, I'm old.)

That trophy was truly hideous and I'm glad it was blown to Smithereens. Death to creepy gold Barbie headed trophy!!!

I also forgot to check her ears. Yeah Connie.

And from now on, every time I go to ANY Mexican restaurant, I'm going to hear Georgie calling it a More Romantic Taco Bell. Because that is just great.

 

[aemom]

17 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you under the false impression that autistic people don't get depressed by the idea of being friendless or alone? Because we do.

Also, we are no more or less likely than neurotypical people to be thoughtless. That's a personality trait. Most people, autistic or otherwise, while they may not realize how their behavior affects others, do care how their behavior affects others. And therefore some of us spend a great deal of our time worrying about it. Thoughtless people (like Sheldon often is), whether autistic or neurotypical, don't care.

I wish that I could like your post more than once because it is so accurate, explanatory, and succinct.

I have a son on the spectrum who falls into the worrier category, and I have seen the stress of this play out many times.

[galaxychaser]

I’m happy Shelly got told no for once! 
 

[rmontro]

18 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

A footnote sounds both easy to miss and like it might just say "the author would like to acknowledge Sheldon Cooper" without saying what he did. Something near the front would perhaps be better.

But Sheldon didn't ask for something near the front, he wanted co-authorship.  Chances are, he wasn't going to be satisfied with anything less.  I'm surprised he was going to allow Sturgis' name on there at all lol.  Dr. Sturgis offered what he thought was appropriate credit, and Dr. Linkletter agreed with him.

Anyway, Dr. Sturgis could very well have come to the same conclusion Sheldon did about the size of whatever it was (I can't even remember at this point).  He had been working on it 20 years, a little more time wouldn't have hurt.  He gave it to Sheldon for his opinion and he got it.  Sometimes a fresh set of eyes can help.

19 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Most people, autistic or otherwise, while they may not realize how their behavior affects others, do care how their behavior affects others. And therefore some of us spend a great deal of our time worrying about it. Thoughtless people (like Sheldon often is), whether autistic or neurotypical, don't care.

I agree with you, of course.  And this explains why the writers have declined to label Sheldon as being on the spectrum.  Because then he would become a symbol for autism or Aspbergers or whatever it might be, and then they would be accused of him being a stereotype, or that he is representing them wrongly, or what have you.  This way, they can write him as being as big a jackass as they like, without fear of looking insensitive.

[galaxychaser]

Dr Sturgis is the green dinosaur in toy story. He even looks like that dinosaur 🤣🤣🤣.

[Chit Chat]

I think that Dr. Sturgis handled the situation appropriately.  I don't see it as him acting immaturely.  He calmly explained to Sheldon what he did wrong and how it hurt him, and it's his prerogative as to whether he wants Sheldon in his class or not.   Sheldon can pick another professor to take the class with.  

[Noneofyourbusiness]

4 hours ago, aemom said:

I wish that I could like your post more than once because it is so accurate, explanatory, and succinct.

I have a son on the spectrum who falls into the worrier category, and I have seen the stress of this play out many times.

Thank you so much!

[Browncoat]

On 3/8/2020 at 11:26 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Something near the front would perhaps be better.

Most scientific papers have a specific format of Introduction, Materials and Methods, Results, Discussion, References.  Acknowledgements, if there are any, generally come before References.  There is no place near the front to put anything.  Journals vary, of course, in some of the details, but they each have guidelines, and will not publish a paper that does not follow those guidelines.  We once had to change spellings of words such as "color" to "colour" because the journal was a UK publication, and all words had to be spelled (spelt?) the British way instead of the American way.

Reviewers, even those who make comments that require rewriting sections, rarely get even so much as an acknowledgement, much less a co-authorship.

[Driad]

It is too bad that the adults around Sheldon don't know how to interact with a very bright child.  They tend to think that he is more mature than he really is, and to let his bad behavior slide because it is easier.  Sheldon does not have a good role model; I hoped that Sturgis could be that, but he does not have the social skills to teach Sheldon how to get along with others (and that is not really his job anyway).

[AriAu]

Quote

I don't think Sheldon intended to try to gut his career.  It's just that he wanted credit and was willing to go to any lengths to get it - he didn't really care about the consequences. 

Quote

He's definitely a kid, but I think his behavior is more about him being Sheldon than about being a kid.  I can easily picture adult Sheldon in this exact same situation, acting in exactly the same way. 

Quote

The thing about Sheldon is, he doesn't care about how he affects other people. He doesn't respect other people. he feels genuinely superior. He doesn't just think he's academically smarter, he thinks he's more valuable.

Bingo. Bingo and Bingo Not only would  Adult Sheldon do the exact same thing., he basically did it over and over and over again right up until the last 3 minutes of the show. In other words, the reason you can picture it is that there were just about 12 seasons of prime time television (give or take an episode here or there) where Sheldon was a jerk to people without thinking of the consequences to them, only whether he got enough credit or  it worked for him!

[Mojeaux]

Quote

 there are more successful ways to deal with people, esp. children in situations like this.

 

Not my kid.

 

Now, I thought Sheldon deserved more than a footnote, also, but at the point Sheldon decides to destroy someone's career over an insult, he's become The Enemy and should be treated as such.

With my kid (who is very smart, incredibly driven and ambitious, and utterly egotistical), you canNOT leave the door open for answering "why" or explaining or negotiating or anything else because he will take negotiation as permission and get what he wants by hook or by crook. A solid NO and a way to back it up is the only thing that will work.

 

Thing is, the other people in Sheldon's life have nothing to back up their "no"s. They have zero leverage to enforce anything. Sturgis did, and he used it. It was the appropriate thing to do.

[Beany Malone]

Rewatched and I don't know how I missed this line: "Did you make this taste bad so Dad would lose weight?" Seriously laughed out loud.  

Upon rewatching I stand by my opinion that Sheldon was right in the sense that his contribution deserved more than a thank you in a foot note however, and that's a big however he also did not deserve co-authorship credit.  I liked that the Ed Begley Jr character made that clear to Sheldon because it really wasn't enough for it to come from Dr Sturgis who obviously could have been biased.  

Have to add that Iain Armitage is an awesome little actor.  His face at the end when Dr Sturgis told him he didn't want him in his class anymore - wow.  You could see the hurt and confusion and realization that he blew it all there in that moment,

Edited March 11, 2020 by Beany Malone

[Chit Chat]

4 hours ago, Beany Malone said:

Have to add that Iain Armitage is an awesome little actor. 

So true and kudos to him for taking on this big of a role.  That's a lot of complicated dialogue for someone his age.  

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 3/10/2020 at 12:06 PM, Browncoat said:

Most scientific papers have a specific format of Introduction, Materials and Methods, Results, Discussion, References.  Acknowledgements, if there are any, generally come before References.  There is no place near the front to put anything. 

I see, thank you. I'm more familiar with books, where the Acknowledgements can be at the front (as when the author credits me for editing). But at least it would be a specific section before the footnotes.

[Sarah 103]

On 3/8/2020 at 6:17 PM, Katy M said:

I think we're supposed to go with what the show is telling us.  The show has shown Dr Sturgis as an honest, generous man. He's not egotistical by any means.  Thre's nothing to suggest that he would shortchange Sheldon or anyone else.  The show also made a point to have Dr. Linkletter (no friend of Dr. Sturgis's) say that a footnote sounded like what he was entitled to.

I liked that while Dr. Linkletter has an intense rivalry with Dr. Sturgis, Linkletter understands there are limits and rules and will not resort to anything wrong or underhanded to get the better of Sturgis. It's mostly a professional rivalry, not a personal one. 

Edited March 15, 2020 by Sarah 103

[cmahorror]

Funny story - my first date after dumping my first boyfriend took me to a Chi Chi's and guess who just started working there? That's right, my ex. He had been working at a different restaurant while we were dating and I had no idea he had taken another job. Since he had spent months trying to get me to give him a second chance, it was definitely awkward although he was luckily only the host and not our waiter, even though he found reasons to pass our table several times while we eating.

Sheldon was a jerk and surprisingly naive for someone who has read so many academic papers. Helping with a paper is nowhere near the criteria necessary to earn partial credit. How nice to see him receive real repercussions for his actions. It was definitely needed.

[SnarkySheep]

On 3/5/2020 at 9:25 PM, kariyaki said:

I knew Missy would want the same trophy everybody else gets.

I wasn't clear...why was everyone getting a trophy anyways? Did they win some kind of tournament, or was it a participation trophy? Because I don't really remember a lot of that going on in 1990.