S05.E02: 50% Off

[Ohwell]

Don't even get me started on Stacy.  I don't remember her backstory and whether she had any relatives or friends in ABQ, but she got on my nerves constantly relying on Mike for whatever she needed or wanted.  There were many times when I wished Mike had said "No, sorry, can't help because I've got other things to do." I know she would have punished him by keeping him from Kaylee, but still, there were times when I wish he'd taken a stand.  
 

[Clanstarling]

On 2/25/2020 at 9:15 AM, Bannon said:

I've always said that Breaking Bad is about the damage inflicted by selfish pride, be it Walt's, Hank's, Skyler's, or even Jesse's, and Better Call Saul is about how grief, absent some healing, inflicts incredible damage. Jimmy's grief over his relationship with Chuck. Mike's with his son. I still suspect that we will see Kim walk away from Jimmy/Saul, and that grief will be unbearable for him.

That's a lovely analysis, thank you. I think you're spot on.

On 2/25/2020 at 1:00 PM, Bryce Lynch said:

I don't think Mike was trying to discourage Kaylee from becoming a cop.  I thought he just couldn't handle all the talk about him and his son being good cops.  It wasn't true of Mike and being a good cop got Matt killed by other bad cops.   

I think Mike also realizes he is no longer a good man (if he ever really was).   It makes me think of his talk with Pryce about some criminals being good people and some bad people not being criminals.   I think killing Werner crossed a line for Mike and also made him realize how many other lines he had already crossed.   

 

When Mike killed Werner, I said to my husband, that's the line too far - he crossed over into killing an innocent person for expediency's sake, for someone else. He could convince himself that the cops he killed deserved it, but he'll never be able to convince himself that Werner deserved it, or that he's anything other than a paid assassin (even if he tells Gus to forget about the "retainer").

I think Jimmy's line (with Kim) was him suckering her along with the people in his hearing. It'll take longer for her to realize she needs to get away, but that, to me, was her line. When he's calling the others fools, and she knows she's one of them.

[gallimaufry]

1 hour ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

I loved seeing Howard, however briefly, and was happily surprised to hear him being so open to establishing a professional relationship.  Which takes me to... 

A way for Kim's story arc to come to a satisfying conclusion:  Back with Howard as an equity partner.  He genuinely respected her lawyering.  He sure seemed to like her as a person, too.   With this predicate, I would buy it.

I was thinking along the same lines.  It would be the perfect payoff of Jimmy's obsession with wanting to share an office and wanting Wexler McGill to work.  But it would be an odd partnership since Howard's strength is just selling to big clients whereas Kim's interest is in swashbuckling work saving the downtrodden.  I think Kim's is the most difficult arc to land for them.  Skylar's ending in BB was bleak as hell and the show could just about survive that because Walt and Jesse got strong endings with a note of triumph.  I feel like Kim needs her version of that screaming into the night ending.

2 hours ago, Evagirl said:

Unfortunately, I have fallen out of love with BCS.  I'm just going to read the recaps the day following the show to stay of top of things.  I didn't even finish either show because I was just bored.

The dynamics between Jimmy, his brother, the big law firms etc. was what kept me interested season after season.  I know the show is taking viewers down the path of how Jimmy became Saul Goodman, but this particular path doesn't interest me at all.  

From reading the posts I'm in a minority.  Most viewers really like this direction and that's fine.

I still enjoy the show but I do agree that I miss the Chuck/Hamlin side of the world.  And, for that matter, the comedy of criminal characters like Wormald and the Kettlemans.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

A way for Kim's story arc to come to a satisfying conclusion:  Back with Howard as an equity partner.  He genuinely respected her lawyering.  He sure seemed to like her as a person, too. 

Are you thinking Kim and Howard would be a couple with kids too?

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, teddysmom said:

Stacy might need to realize that if Grandpa wasn't in Albuquerque she'd have to tell work "I can't come in today". 

Or, she could have said "I can come in later, my babysitter isn't available and I need to make sure my FiL can help". 

She takes advantage of Mike a lot, and he won't say no to her. Remember how she freaked out that her house was being shot at, (when it wasn't) and he found her a new home. 

I don't really have a problem with Stacey.  She doesn't usually push Mike for the help.  He usually insists.   

Working single parents are under a tremendous amount of stress, and having a grandparent or other family member or friend to help out is a tremendous resource.  Plus, Kaylee and Pop Pop are (were?) extremely close.  Kaylee is by far the best thing in Mike's life and his main reason for living.   

[DangerousMinds]

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Out of all of the brutal stuff that has happened on this show (and Breaking Bad), Mike yelling at Kaylee and likely pushing her and Stacey away for good was one of the hardest to watch.  Definitely think it has come from a place of guilt over his past actions and maybe even wanting to protect them from what he has gotten himself into, but they'll obviously never know that and will likely never know that he truly did love them.  But then again, almost all of his problems were due to his decisions and choices, and the blame is all on him.  But Jonathan Banks continues to shine and still make me care for him.

After my complaint last episode about the lack of Nacho, I'm glad he was front and center here, even if it is due to him being caught in the middle of the games between Gus and Lalo.  The parkour stuff was a bit far-fetched, but I was glad to see him get some kind of victory and start developing a bond with Lalo: even it's only for self-preservation for himself and his father.  I do hope he somehow comes out ahead.  Michael Mando is fantastic here.

Cool seeing the "origin" of how Krazy-8 got his name and what looks like the beginning of him getting to the point he was at on Breaking Bad.  It must be fun for the actors like him and Tyrus; who only appeared a few episodes on the previous shows; to suddenly get some callbacks to come here, despite their characters' "sudden" exists.

That was a nice house that Jimmy and Kim were looking at.  Wonder if that was a real one or if the insides were all sets?  Confused over why they focused on the realtor at the end.  Was she shown before?  Setting her up to play a bigger part down the line?  Or just showing her frustration that Jimmy and Kim probably weren't serious about buying it (yet?)

Watching Jimmy and the DA wheeling and dealing all of their cases was impressive, but really shows how messed up the legal system can be.  Even though it is likely Jimmy really did get his clients good deals (especially considering how idiotic a lot of them apparently were), seeing how overloaded they both were (even if Jimmy brought a lot of it on himself), and how casual their negotiations were over the fates of actual people, just felt icky in a way that is hard to explain.

Gus' threat to Nacho was chilling enough, but then I remembered he was also the same guy who straight-up told Walt he would "kill his infant daughter", so, really, this was Gus set on a 6 or 7, on his stone-cold scale!

Hector is back and already loving his bell.  DING!!

First glimpse of Howard!  I wonder what is in store for him. 

We know from BB that Mike did not push Kaylee and Stacy away forever.

[Bryce Lynch]

3 hours ago, Evagirl said:

Unfortunately, I have fallen out of love with BCS.  I'm just going to read the recaps the day following the show to stay of top of things.  I didn't even finish either show because I was just bored.

The dynamics between Jimmy, his brother, the big law firms etc. was what kept me interested season after season.  I know the show is taking viewers down the path of how Jimmy became Saul Goodman, but this particular path doesn't interest me at all.  

From reading the posts I'm in a minority.  Most viewers really like this direction and that's fine.

I am not there yet, but I feel sort of like Kim feels about Jimmy.  BCS, like Jimmy, has changed and it seems like my relationship with it might be doomed.  But, I am still foolishly holding onto hope that it might come around.   :)

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

When Mike killed Werner, I said to my husband, that's the line too far - he crossed over into killing an innocent person for expediency's sake, for someone else. He could convince himself that the cops he killed deserved it, but he'll never be able to convince himself that Werner deserved it, or that he's anything other than a paid assassin (even if he tells Gus to forget about the "retainer").

Yes. There's no justification for what he did, he executed an unarmed man. The idea that Mike knew the difference between a good and a bad criminal, that his code was to not harm people not in the "game", never held much water for me. You don't kill innocent people as a baseline human behavior. Mike never struck me as honorable just because he limited his killing to a certain class of criminal.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Working single parents are under a tremendous amount of stress, and having a grandparent or other family member or friend to help out is a tremendous resource. 

Working married parents are under  the same amount of stress.  If your child or her babysitter gets sick your boss isn't going to tell you you don't have to come in just because you're married and grandparents aren't resources they are people with lives.  So many young people take it for granted that because their child's grandparents love them, they want to raise them.  They raised their own kids.

Stacy doesn't have to insist that Mike help, she knows full well that all she has to say is that she hears noises at night and Mike will be finding a new and better place for them to live the next day.

Edited February 27, 2020 by JudyObscure

[MrWhyt]

14 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I would expect them to behave like people who want to be able to use meth.  If they get arrested for numerous, non-meth related charges, they will go to jail for at least some period of time, where they won't be able to use meth.  Even at a 50% discount, they would br forced to spend a large sum of money, that could otherwise be used on meth, on legal fees.

I don't expect them to behave "rationally" in the way that normal people do.  But, I would expect them to not make intentional choices that would mean less access to meth.

 

 

cause drug addicts are known for their solid decision making, ability to hold down jobs, blend into normal society and never ever committing crimes in order to feed their habit.

[Ailianna]

Meth is also a Central Nervous System Stimulant, meaning that it often makes people more aggressive and prone to risk taking, doing crazy and over the top things is an effect of the drugs in the body, not necessarily of any type of decision making.

[chick binewski]

4 hours ago, Ohwell said:

Don't even get me started on Stacy.  I don't remember her backstory and whether she had any relatives or friends in ABQ, but she got on my nerves constantly relying on Mike for whatever she needed or wanted.  There were many times when I wished Mike had said "No, sorry, can't help because I've got other things to do." I know she would have punished him by keeping him from Kaylee, but still, there were times when I wish he'd taken a stand.  
 

 

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

Stacy doesn't have to insist that Mike help, she knows full well that all she has to say is that she hears noises at night and Mike will be finding a new and better place for them to live the next day.

I think the show has done a good job showing very little but saying so much about the relationship between Mike & Stacey. Stacey staying in the doorway during BB may have been partly to not have to re-cast an actor for the spin-off, but from the start of BCS Stacey has been asking for favors and barely inviting Mike over for a cup of coffee. I think Mike knows he's a soft touch in this arena (the gunshots story from S1) but goes along.

One more observation from this week - that was no accident one of the plainclothes agents raiding the house (and seen only from the back) was a big, balding guy in a polo, yes?

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Working married parents are under  the same amount of stress.  If your child or her babysitter gets sick your boss isn't going to tell you you don't have to come in just because you're married and grandparents aren't resources they are people with lives.  So many young people take it for granted that because their child's grandparents love them, they want to raise them.  They raised their own kids.

Stacy doesn't have to insist that Mike help, she knows full well that all she has to say is that she hears noises at night and Mike will be finding a new and better place for them to live the next day.

 

30 minutes ago, chick binewski said:

 

I think the show has done a good job showing very little but saying so much about the relationship between Mike & Stacey. Stacey staying in the doorway during BB may have been partly to not have to re-cast an actor for the spin-off, but from the start of BCS Stacey has been asking for favors and barely inviting Mike over for a cup of coffee. I think Mike knows he's a soft touch in this arena (the gunshots story from S1) but goes along.

One more observation from this week - that was no accident one of the plainclothes agents raiding the house (and seen only from the back) was a big, balding guy in a polo, yes?

That was my impression but I'd forgotten the details. I just knew I remembered some incident where Stacy was obviously wanting and expecting Mike to swoop in and fix some huge thing and she was being manipulative.

Not that this had anything to do with why Mike blew up at Kaylee, but I wouldn't expect Stacy to not call him for help because of it--she likes his help too much.

[PeterPirate]

I don't think Howard's encounter with Jimmy was coincidental.  

I like the lighthearted moment when Kim turned the shower on Jimmy.  We don't see Kim much in this episode, and it was nice to see her warming up to the idea of buying the house.  But I don't understand why Jimmy didn't want to sign the guest register.  

I think Mike made a conscious decision to push Kaylee away.  

The shots of the gnome and the cone were meant to bookend the episode, I suppose.  

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by PeterPirate

[Bryce Lynch]

12 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Working married parents are under  the same amount of stress.  If your child or her babysitter gets sick your boss isn't going to tell you you don't have to come in just because you're married and grandparents aren't resources they are people with lives.  So many young people take it for granted that because their child's grandparents love them, they want to raise them.  They raised their own kids.

Stacy doesn't have to insist that Mike help, she knows full well that all she has to say is that she hears noises at night and Mike will be finding a new and better place for them to live the next day.

It is much harder for single parents.  They are doing the job of 2 people.

Stacey does not take Mike for granted.  He has made it clear that he is anxious to help in any way he can.

In this episode, she said "I'm sorry to bother you." He replied that it was no bother and he is happy to help.  She then asked "Are you sure?" and Mike replied "Positive."

Mike's greatest (only?) joy in life is providing for and spending time with Kaylee.  Other than Pabst Blue Ribbon and pimento cheese, there is nothing else good in his life.

Helping out is not a burden to him, it is a joy and it gives his life purpose and helps him deal with his guilt over Matty.  

Just because Mike's love and dedication for Kaylee is beneficial to Stacey, it doesn't mean she is taking advantage of him.

If Mike found out that Stacey missed a day of work because she didn't want to "bother" him to watch Kaylee, he would br pissed.

 

 

 

 

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I don't think Howard's encounter with Jimmy was coincidental.  

I like the lighthearted moment when Kim turned the shower on Jimmy.  We don't see Kim much in this episode, and it was nice to see her warming up to the idea of buying the house.  But I don't understand why Jimmy didn't want to sign the guest register.  

I think Mike made a conscious decision to push Kaylee away.  

The shots of the gnome and the cone were meant to bookend the episode, I suppose.  

 

They should have had Marie come to the open house, give a fake name and backstory.  

[chick binewski]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I don't think Howard's encounter with Jimmy was coincidental.  

I like the lighthearted moment when Kim turned the shower on Jimmy.  We don't see Kim much in this episode, and it was nice to see her warming up to the idea of buying the house.  But I don't understand why Jimmy didn't want to sign the guest register.  

I'm looking forward to seeing more of Howard and have always been curious how he will factor in as the series ends. Idk why I want a good ending for him but those are spare in the BB-BCS universe.

Showing Jimmy not willing to sign the register (as well as his insistence to see the house immediately and his forced enthusiasm) was why I thought the whole thing involved a client and it's gonna bug me until we see that house again.

[Bryce Lynch]

12 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

cause drug addicts are known for their solid decision making, ability to hold down jobs, blend into normal society and never ever committing crimes in order to feed their habit.

Addicts will certainly commit crimes to feed their habits. But, they are not going to factor in the 50% discount on legal fees for non-violent felonies in the their decision making.

They are going to try to commit crimes they think they can get away with to feed their habit.  

Even at 50% off, the legal fees would probably eat up all their profits from their little petty theft spree, and then some.   When Badger got busted on BB, Saul's retainer was $4,650.  Since there were two idiot skells this time,, at 50% off, it would still cost them about $4,650 total, to start.

Besides that ,they know they can always get 100% off on legal fees by using the public defender.  At this point, I don't think any of the criminals have much reason to believe the drop phone guy can provide any better service than a free public defender.    Once Saul builds his reputation it would be a different story, but he is just getting started again.  

[JudyObscure]

38 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It is much harder for single parents.  They are doing the job of 2 people.

Often said, never true. Stacy isn't going to her job and then to what would have been her husband's job, too.  She isn't cleaning two houses or  cooking two dinners.  Her day is just like the day of most married working mothers.  Things are  probably harder financially than they would be if her husband was alive and if she had been married to that rare man who loved to clean and cook that would have made life easier, but she's not doing the job of two people.

I've been a married mother followed by being a single, divorced mother (with no alimony, child support or death benefits) and life was much easier as a single mother because there was no gentleman of leisure in the recliner spending my pay check on tennis rackets and golf clubs.

 

 

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I like the lighthearted moment when Kim turned the shower on Jimmy.  We don't see Kim much in this episode, and it was nice to see her warming up to the idea of buying the house.  But I don't understand why Jimmy didn't want to sign the guest register.

I don't know why Jimmy didn't sign the register, though I know why I don't. I'm generally a looky-loo, and I don't want to get bothered by realtors - it's a waste of both their time and mine.

Kim didn't sign the register either, did she? I forget.

[Bryce Lynch]

14 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Often said, never true. Stacy isn't going to her job and then to what would have been her husband's job, too.  She isn't cleaning two houses or  cooking two dinners.  Her day is just like the day of most married working mothers.  Things are  probably harder financially than they would be if her husband was alive and if she had been married to that rare man who loved to clean and cook that would have made life easier, but she's not doing the job of two people.

I've been a married mother followed by being a single, divorced mother (with no alimony, child support or death benefits) and life was much easier as a single mother because there was no gentleman of leisure in the recliner spending my pay check on tennis rackets and golf clubs.

 

 

Huh?  Most husbands do some cleaning and other chores around the house.  Plus, childcare is a big issue.  With her being a nurse and Matty being a cop, they were probably usually able to schedule things so one of them could always be home with Kaylee.  If not, and nobody could watch her, one of them could take a personal/vacation/sick day.  When those days are spread over 2 people, they are much less likely to threaten one's job. 

I'm sorry that you had a lazy, useless husband.  But, most men (and women) earn their keep, share the financial burden of the household, and help with chores, errands and child rearing. 

There is zero indication that Matty Ehrmantraut was a bum like your ex-husband.  All indications were that he was a good man, an honest cop and dedicated husband and father.  

Parenting is a 2 person job.  

 

[teddysmom]

16 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

A way for Kim's story arc to come to a satisfying conclusion:  Back with Howard as an equity partner.  He genuinely respected her lawyering.  He sure seemed to like her as a person, too. 

I thought that back a couple seasons ago, that Kim would go back to HHM and end up with Howard. 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It is much harder for single parents.  They are doing the job of 2 people.

Thank you.

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Stacey does not take Mike for granted.  He has made it clear that he is anxious to help in any way he can.

In this episode, she said "I'm sorry to bother you." He replied that it was no bother and he is happy to help.  She then asked "Are you sure?" and Mike replied "Positive."

This seemed like a bit of a retcon to me because in BrBa and past seasons of BCS, I saw Stacey as taking advantage of Mike, especially when he found her a new place to live because she heard noises. But maybe I was just looking at her as spoiled because I did not have that much support from extended family members when I was a single parent without a supportive other parent. Perhaps I would have behaved the same as Stacey, given the opportunity. I suppose in a way, Mike has enabled what I perceived as Stacey's entitled behavior. So, this might not be so much of a retcon and just the Mike-Stacey-Kaylee story taking a new fork in the road.

[j-beda]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

... life was much easier as a single mother because there was no gentleman of leisure in the recliner spending my pay check on tennis rackets and golf clubs.

Perhaps it is an over-generalization to say that a single parent always works twice as hard as an individual half of a two parent family. A more accurate statement might be "Parenting can be very difficult, and sharing responsibility with someone else for the raising of a child can be much less difficult than doing it completely alone."

I have been fortunate enough to have a pretty secure home life both financially and socially, with kids who have presented very few challenges so parenting has been relatively straightforward, and yet I feel that my spouse takes significant weight off of my shoulders in terms of parenting. I am fairly confident that they feel similarly. I doubt we split things 50/50 - I feel they do more real "parenting" than I do - but if either of us was out of the picture, the other would need to do more. It might not be twice as much more, but it would be more. I also suspect that even if the remaining spouse did twice as much more, our kids would benefit less than they get now.

With all that said, we do not see each and every interaction between Mike, Stacey, and Kaylee. What we have seen does have a taste of entitlement on Stacey's side, but how much of that is "real"? One of the strengths of this show is its ability to show some of the ambiguity of inter-personal interactions: how people can do awful things even with good intentions, or how people's past can poison their interpretations of the actions they see others take. Mike feels incredibly conflicted about almost everything in his life. Stacey's life is not without challenges. Pretty much the only thing we see them interact with each other are their relationships with Kaylee.

Even without the strains of shift work at a stressful job or dealing with killing your drug-lab construction crew, my friends and families seem to come up with plenty of drama over work, children, school, and all sorts of "unforgivable" statements and actions. I find it perfectly believable that Mike both resents Stacey for asking for his help and at the same time feels guilt for not being more helpful and involved. Stacey in turn can feel guilty for relying on Mike as much as she does and resentful for him not being more involved in their lives, while at the same time being grateful for his company and irked by his presence. At its best, BCS is able to show all of these sorts of contradictions.

Or maybe I am just projecting....

[Bryce Lynch]

20 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Thank you.

This seemed like a bit of a retcon to me because in BrBa and past seasons of BCS, I saw Stacey as taking advantage of Mike, especially when he found her a new place to live because she heard noises. But maybe I was just looking at her as spoiled because I did not have that much support from extended family members when I was a single parent without a supportive other parent. Perhaps I would have behaved the same as Stacey, given the opportunity. I suppose in a way, Mike has enabled what I perceived as Stacey's entitled behavior. So, this might not be so much of a retcon and just the Mike-Stacey-Kaylee story taking a new fork in the road.

I never saw Stacey as "entitled", I saw her more as a woman who suffered a horrible tragedy who was blessed by the generosity of her father in law.   Of course, Mike was also partly responsible for Matty getting killed, so there's that.  

I think the house situation was left a bit ambiguous.  But, I took it that Stacey was a bit paranoid, probably from PTSD, and really thought she heard gunshots.  I think it was implied that she mistook the newspapers hitting the sidewalk, in the wee hours of the morning, for gunshots.  

She didn't ask for Mike to find her a new house.  She just told him how distressed she was by the "gunshots" and he offered.  I don't know if she even knew Mike could afford to get her and Kaylee into a new home.  I guess you could argue that she was angling for that, but there was no clear evidence of this. 

Someone upthread suggested that maybe Mike was never getting invited to dinner and only getting called when Stacey needed something.  But, I recall that after Mike had his "car accident" (actually assaulted by Tuco), Stacey said that Kaylee wanted to know when Pop Pop would be coming to dinner again,  He replied that he didn't want her to see him in his condition.   That suggests that Mike was a regular dinner guest, when he wasn't hiding injuries from Kaylee.  

 

 

 

 

 

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Parenting is a 2 person job.  

I couldn't agree more and that's one reason I'm tired of the "single mothers are all saints"  myth.  For every widow like Stacy or divorced woman whose husband was abusive, there's a huge number of women who chose to be single mothers because they thought fathers weren't important.  What I argued with was your statement that single mothers do the work of two.  That's not humanly possible.

[Bryce Lynch]

15 minutes ago, j-beda said:

Perhaps it is an over-generalization to say that a single parent always works twice as hard as an individual half of a two parent family. A more accurate statement might be "Parenting can be very difficult, and sharing responsibility with someone else for the raising of a child can be much less difficult than doing it completely alone."

I have been fortunate enough to have a pretty secure home life both financially and socially, with kids who have presented very few challenges so parenting has been relatively straightforward, and yet I feel that my spouse takes significant weight off of my shoulders in terms of parenting. I am fairly confident that they feel similarly. I doubt we split things 50/50 - I feel they do more real "parenting" than I do - but if either of us was out of the picture, the other would need to do more. It might not be twice as much more, but it would be more. I also suspect that even if the remaining spouse did twice as much more, our kids would benefit less than they get now.

With all that said, we do not see each and every interaction between Mike, Stacey, and Kaylee. What we have seen does have a taste of entitlement on Stacey's side, but how much of that is "real"? One of the strengths of this show is its ability to show some of the ambiguity of inter-personal interactions: how people can do awful things even with good intentions, or how people's past can poison their interpretations of the actions they see others take. Mike feels incredibly conflicted about almost everything in his life. Stacey's life is not without challenges. Pretty much the only thing we see them interact with each other are their relationships with Kaylee.

Even without the strains of shift work at a stressful job or dealing with killing your drug-lab construction crew, my friends and families seem to come up with plenty of drama over work, children, school, and all sorts of "unforgivable" statements and actions. I find it perfectly believable that Mike both resents Stacey for asking for his help and at the same time feels guilt for not being more helpful and involved. Stacey in turn can feel guilty for relying on Mike as much as she does and resentful for him not being more involved in their lives, while at the same time being grateful for his company and irked by his presence. At its best, BCS is able to show all of these sorts of contradictions.

Or maybe I am just projecting....

I don't get that Mike generally resents Stacey.  But, I did sense that this particular time was a bad time for him, but he felt he couldn't say no, and also wanted to see Kaylee.  He probably figured if he dragged himself out of bed and went over there, it would cheer him up.  

He was guilt ridden, depressed and exhausted over the Werner situation.   When her call woke him up, he looked a lot like a forlorn Walter White often did when he woke up after a rough night (sometimes after being beaten up by Mike).   

 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, JudyObscure said:

I couldn't agree more and that's one reason I'm tired of the "single mothers are all saints"  myth.  For every widow like Stacy or divorced woman whose husband was abusive, there's a huge number of women who chose to be single mothers because they thought fathers weren't important.  What I argued with was your statement that single mothers do the work of two.  That's not humanly possible.

I don't think single mothers are saints.  Some are awful and are single mothers because they are awful. 

But, parenting is a two person job and whenever only one parent (father or mother) is doing it, they have a big, extra burden.  I  believe mothers and fathers are equally important, and when one isn't willing, able, or alive to do their part, the other parent has a lot more work to do.  

Stacey is not a single mother by choice or through driving her child's father away.  Her husband and father of her child was murdered.   

 

[Wouldofshouldof]

Here's that pic...

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I never saw Stacey as "entitled", I saw her more as a woman who suffered a horrible tragedy who was blessed by the generosity of her father in law.   Of course, Mike was also partly responsible for Matty getting killed, so there's that.  

I think the house situation was left a bit ambiguous.  But, I took it that Stacey was a bit paranoid, probably from PTSD, and really thought she heard gunshots.  I think it was implied that she mistook the newspapers hitting the sidewalk, in the wee hours of the morning, for gunshots.  

She didn't ask for Mike to find her a new house.  She just told him how distressed she was by the "gunshots" and he offered.  I don't know if she even knew Mike could afford to get her and Kaylee into a new home.  I guess you could argue that she was angling for that, but there was no clear evidence of this. 

I don't think she was angling for that specifically or is ever strategic about it, but given the relationship they have (which is of course partly Mike's doing since he's so guilty about his son he's wanted to be relied on by her) it seems hard to believe she could mention gunshots to him and not expect him to fix it. That doesn't mean she was consciously lying about thinking she heard gunshots, but it didn't seem unusual for their relationship that Mike would show up with an entirely new house in response to it. 

Not that this really applies to this case, since it seems like she did get a last minute call into work and so why wouldn't she call Kaylee's grandfather to see if he could babysit? As Mike told her over the phone, he makes his own hours so it would be weird of her not to call him to help out this one afternoon. 

But that's also why I don't think Mike's behavior this one afternoon would make her reconsider him spending time with Kaylee. Apart from Kaylee loving him, Stacey does rely on him sometimes to an enormous degree and owes him a lot for his patience and generosity. She wouldn't find that with anyone else.

[Ohwell]

My issue with Stacey has always been that she acts like Mike has no life outside his relationship with her and Kaylee.

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Stacey is not a single mother by choice or through driving her child's father away.  Her husband and father of her child was murdered.   

Er yes, that's why I just exempted her by saying "for every widow like Stacy." She's still not entitled to constant help and she's still not doing the job of two, unless you think most married women are sitting on the sofa eating bon bons all day while the man works a ten hour job and then comes home and does all the housework.  I think you insult married women when you say Stacy is doing twice what they do every day.

[chick binewski]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She didn't ask for Mike to find her a new house.  She just told him how distressed she was by the "gunshots" and he offered.  I don't know if she even knew Mike could afford to get her and Kaylee into a new home.  I guess you could argue that she was angling for that, but there was no clear evidence of this.

When Mike waited outside her home all night, then did not disclose it was only newspapers Stacey had to fear, followed by Stacey's semi-indignant 'I was here and you weren't'...I think we're supposed to see an ambiguous relationship filled with stress. 

Stacey knows Mike was taking money as a cop, but doesn't seem as conflicted as her late husband to take ill-gotten gains. She did try to bring Mike into the grief group, and I don't doubt Mike's character isn't acting solely out of obligation. I just believe we're supposed to see their interactions as complicated.

2 hours ago, teddysmom said:

I thought that back a couple seasons ago, that Kim would go back to HHM and end up with Howard. 

During S1 & 2 I really thought this was where Kim & Howard were going. However, this season feeling especially ominous I don't see anyone benefitting in the end. 

I do wonder (on a more frequent basis than I'd like to admit) whose card Jimmy handed to Francesca in the flash-forward from last season. Since she already knew Kim I thought it might be Howard? Maybe DA Bill set up his own practice? Hey, Ernie's had about enough time to get a law degree and I wouldn't mind seeing him again (esp if karaoke is involved).

[PeterPirate]

I see Stacey as a very conscientious, respectable person.  Above all, she puts the well-being of her daughter first.  

Bear in mind that Stacey had good reasons to keep Mike at arms length before the start of the show.  He became distant and consistently inebriated after Matty's death.  She moved across the country to start a new life.  Mike followed her; she didn't ask him to move to New Mexico.  And since the start of the show, she's learned that Mike was a dirty cop who was indirectly responsible for her husband's death.   And that her efforts to introduce him to other people has blown up in her face.

Not only do we know that Mike is a dangerous character, Stacey knows it too.  But she also knows that her daughter loves her Pop-Pop, and that he provides material support and babysitting services.  It's a situation that she is managing, not exploiting. 

Edited February 27, 2020 by PeterPirate

[Chaos Theory]

I don’t understand the animosity toward Stacey at all.    My sister calls on my parents to watch her kids all the time.   So does my brother and he lives a state away.    Both my parents will actually drop a lot to do it.    It’s their grandkid.     With Mike their is the added guilt of a dead son.   Is Stacey taking advantage?   Probably.   But good for her.   It’s either Mike or pay double for your back up babysitter or risk losing your job.   I would lay on whatever I needed to to get grandpa to come over too.   
 

I thought Mike and Kaylee were having a great time until Kaylee brought up the subject of dad.   Mike was even helping her with her 7’s.    How is a kid who probably still thinks dad died a hero supposed to know that the subject will make everyone either mad or sad?

I don’t think Jimmy and Kim has any intention of buying the house.   They were just walking through this nice house playing the happy couple so Jmy the scam artist didn’t want his name and probable information on anyones Book for further contact.

I have no idea what the Gene persona is going to do.   My big guess is this is where the show may reincorporate Kim since we know she wasn’t a part of Breaking Bad.

[teddysmom]

7 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

My big guess is this is where the show may reincorporate Kim since we know she wasn’t a part of Breaking Bad.

That's what I think.  There's no reason for Kim to be in danger.   Unless something comes up that we aren't aware of, she wouldn't be caught up in the Gus/Salamanca feud, and I don't think Nacho would threaten her, Jimmy seems to acquiesce whenever he shows up. 

 And we know Jimmy survives BCS & BB.  I think she might back to HHM and the card may very well be hers or Howard's.  And I do think Kim could show up in the Gene opener next season. 

 

[sistermagpie]

20 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

That's what I think.  There's no reason for Kim to be in danger.   Unless something comes up that we aren't aware of, she wouldn't be caught up in the Gus/Salamanca feud, and I don't think Nacho would threaten her, Jimmy seems to acquiesce whenever he shows up. 

Also it just seems like Saul would be a very different person in BB if Kim was actually killed or seriously injured as a result of his actions. It would put way too much weight on him, imo, enough to practically wipe out everything else, not just his guilt about Chuck and inability to really grieve him, but the natural results of his actions.

34 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don’t understand the animosity toward Stacey at all.  

I don't know if anybody's expressing anything as extreme as animosity. It seems like their relationship, as said above, is just complicated and while Mike is the only criminal of the two, it can't be defined as just which one's bad or good. I mean, if two people agree that she's taking advantage of him and one thinks good for her and the other things she's entitled, that's not really disagreeing about the character, just having different personal reactions to her behavior in specific scenes. 

Though again, I don't think that's really connected to this ep at all. Mike didn't blow up at Kaylee because of anything her mother was doing or had done, and Stacey wasn't being particularly demanding to him here by calling him at the last minute because she herself was called by somebody else at the last minute. Plus Mike was the only one who knew how he was feeling at that moment and he chose to go over instead of making up an excuse why he just couldn't that day despite wanting to help.

[Eulipian 5k]

On 2/25/2020 at 10:28 AM, teddysmom said:

You're applying logic to a couple 20 year old meth heads. 

Eggzactly! But the idea that we're now dissecting the cold open of the second episode of the entire season and suggesting that the award winning production team has "lost it", sheesh. Someone complained that a cameo left them wanting more from a character; it's episode 2! Maybe they're letting you know that the character isn't dead and will be back.

On 2/25/2020 at 9:04 AM, teddysmom said:

It seems some aren't aware of  the Gilligan & Co art form of long intros that may not seem relevant but end up being so.   

Maybe we should have had a Star Wars (SpaceBalls!) type scroll of exposition as the cold open so that the "show not tell" crowd can have their say.

Is every show forum being trolled by wannabe "writers" who clearly weren't given the job, and just want to hate watch?

Edited February 27, 2020 by Eulipian 5k

[teddysmom]

38 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Eggzactly! But the idea that we're now dissecting the cold open of the second episode of the entire season and suggesting that the award winning production team has "lost it", sheesh. Someone complained that a cameo left them wanting more from a character; it's episode 2! Maybe they're letting you know that the character isn't dead and will be back.

Maybe we should have had a Star Wars (SpaceBalls!) type scroll of exposition as the cold open so that the "show not tell" crowd can have their say.

Is every show forum being trolled by wannabe "writers" who clearly weren't given the job, and just want to hate watch?

OMG I'm so glad you said this.  I have read some of these comments and thought, "The level of expertise and love that goes into every detail.   How does a person enjoy a mystery if they know what happened five minutes later? 

Anyone who's watched a Gilligan/Gould production knows there's a pay off eventually. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I have trusted Vince Gilligan & Peter Gould, the cast and crews to entertain me for the last what eleven-twelve years and they have not failed. (at least not me). 

 

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by teddysmom

[ShadowFacts]

6 hours ago, teddysmom said:

I thought that back a couple seasons ago, that Kim would go back to HHM and end up with Howard. 

I just can't imagine why Howard is eager to meet up with Jimmy, unless it's about the scholarship in Chuck's name, but that would just be routine and not need a lunch meeting. I can buy Kim going back to HHM, but are there enough episodes left in the show's lifespan to have her end up with Howard? That might be pushing it. I think she will likely end up being seen in Gene's timeline, because what else is there in that bleak black-and-white existence of his that would be the least bit fitting or satisfying to the viewers?

7 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if they hate everything they see, why bother. I have trusted Vince Gilligan & Peter Gould, the cast and crews to entertain me for the last what eleven-twelve years and they have not failed.  

Criticism isn't hate, though, and I haven't seen too much more than pretty mild criticism or any evidence of hate watching. I was let down by the season premiere and as I said, it might be partly that I was cranky about waiting a year and a half. My expectations were probably too high. I appreciate the details and efforts that go into these episodes, but I think it's perfectly valid to register comparisons to past performance.

[Eulipian 5k]

17 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

Anyone who's watched a Gilligan/Gould production knows there's a pay off eventually. 

Yeah, what about that stupid teddy bear eye in the pool? What did that have to do with anything in BrBd?

Edited February 27, 2020 by Eulipian 5k

[teddysmom]

5 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Yeah, what about that stupid teddy bear eye in the pool? What did that have to do with anything in BrBd?

It was from the plane that exploded. 

[Eulipian 5k]

1 minute ago, teddysmom said:

7 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Yeah, what about that stupid teddy bear eye in the pool? What did that have to do with anything in BrBd?

It was from the plane that exploded. 

Eggzactly, that was a set up that we watched in every opening sequence until we eventually were shown its relevance, IIRC, a whole season later, after two related catastrophic major events. But we had to sit thru those world altering events before they showed us why they included the eye in the pool. Patience, Grasshopper, patience.

[Ohwell]

I can't wait for the payoffs for the gnome and the ice cream cone.  

I also hope we see more of Kim's idiot client who wanted to go to trial.  This reminds me of Jimmy's dealings with the Kettlemans.  

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't know if anybody's expressing anything as extreme as animosity. It seems like their relationship, as said above, is just complicated and while Mike is the only criminal of the two, it can't be defined as just which one's bad or good. I mean, if two people agree that she's taking advantage of him and one thinks good for her and the other things she's entitled, that's not really disagreeing about the character, just having different personal reactions to her behavior in specific scenes.

Well put, as always.

6 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Eggzactly, that was a set up that we watched in every opening sequence until we eventually were shown its relevance, IIRC, a whole season later, after two related catastrophic major events. But we had to sit thru those world altering events before they showed us why they included the eye in the pool. Patience, Grasshopper, patience.

I love waiting for the pay offs. After watching BB and 4 years of BCS, I'm confident these writers are deliberate in everything they do, and something that seems random and unnecessary will have meaning down the line.

[Ellaria]

3 hours ago, teddysmom said:

That's what I think.  There's no reason for Kim to be in danger.   Unless something comes up that we aren't aware of, she wouldn't be caught up in the Gus/Salamanca feud, and I don't think Nacho would threaten her, Jimmy seems to acquiesce whenever he shows up. 

 And we know Jimmy survives BCS & BB.  I think she might back to HHM and the card may very well be hers or Howard's.  And I do think Kim could show up in the Gene opener next season. 

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Also it just seems like Saul would be a very different person in BB if Kim was actually killed or seriously injured as a result of his actions. It would put way too much weight on him, imo, enough to practically wipe out everything else, not just his guilt about Chuck and inability to really grieve him, but the natural results of his actions.

I agree with these statements. I don't think that Kim departs the story line because she is killed in the drug wars or otherwise. As @sistermagpie says, Kim's death would have a very profound effect on Saul.

Rather, I think that is much more impactful for her to finally walk away from him (self preservation?). Kim's rejection will devastate him. He wants to make her happy. He wants her approval. I think that he loves her. However, none of that comes before his own needs and his selfish desire to win.

I don't think that Kim ends up with Howard. She may go back to HMM for a time but eventually I think that she moves out of Albuquerque. I'd love to see her meet up with Gene in Omaha.

[MrWhyt]

11 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Besides that ,they know they can always get 100% off on legal fees by using the public defender.  At this point, I don't think any of the criminals have much reason to believe the drop phone guy can provide any better service than a free public defender.    Once Saul builds his reputation it would be a different story, but he is just getting started again.  

so now we're at the point where a couple of meth heads are evaluating the pros and cons of their available legal defenders

[JudyObscure]

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

 

I don't know if anybody's expressing anything as extreme as animosity. It seems like their relationship, as said above, is just complicated and while Mike is the only criminal of the two, it can't be defined as just which one's bad or good. I mean, if two people agree that she's taking advantage of him and one thinks good for her and the other things she's entitled, that's not really disagreeing about the character, just having different personal reactions to her behavior in specific scenes. 

Though again, I don't think that's really connected to this ep at all. Mike didn't blow up at Kaylee because of anything her mother was doing or had done, and Stacey wasn't being particularly demanding to him here by calling him at the last minute because she herself was called by somebody else at the last minute. Plus Mike was the only one who knew how he was feeling at that moment and he chose to go over instead of making up an excuse why he just couldn't that day despite wanting to help.

I agree with all of this.  Stacey isn't a bad person at all and the negative things I said about her in my first post on this subject weren't things I thought about her, but rather things I believed Mike might be thinking when he sped past her to leave.  Temporary bits of anger based on his desire to partially deflect some guilt over his outburst.  

-------------------

I don't hate Stacey, but I can't particularly like her just because her husband died, anymore than I can like Hector because he had a stroke or Walter White because he had cancer.  I don't look at Stacey and say "good for her" when she calls Mike for help. I would say "good for him" if he had told her that even though he is making his own hours, he had just worked a long stretch and had to sleep. 

I watched the scene where he yells at Kaylee again and he repeatedly shouts, "You're done!"  I wonder if that has some second meaning?

[shapeshifter]

I seem to recall that when Stacey appeared on Breaking Bad that there was pretty universal belief by the audience (especially on TWoP) that she was taking advantage of Mike. I suppose the old podcasts from Vince Gilligan et al. would clarify the intent for how she was suppose to be perceived, but I doubt any of us is going to go back and sift through the comments, podcasts, recaps etc. Nevertheless, my opinion of Stacey on BCS has been colored by the negative opinions of her character that I accepted back during the BrBa years. Going forward I will make an effort to see the character of Stacey without prejudice.

[Clanstarling]

29 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I seem to recall that when Stacey appeared on Breaking Bad that there was pretty universal belief by the audience (especially on TWoP) that she was taking advantage of Mike. I suppose the old podcasts from Vince Gilligan et al. would clarify the intent for how she was suppose to be perceived, but I doubt any of us is going to go back and sift through the comments, podcasts, recaps etc. Nevertheless, my opinion of Stacey on BCS has been colored by the negative opinions of her character that I accepted back during the BrBa years. Going forward I will make an effort to see the character of Stacey without prejudice.

I don't even remember her from Breaking Bad. So my opinion - which was negative at first - was based on what I saw on BCS. I've softened a bit, and don't think she's terrible, just flawed like everyone else. I did think some of her actions were knowingly manipulative. Not all, by any means.

16 hours ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Rather, I think that is much more impactful for her to finally walk away from him (self preservation?). Kim's rejection will devastate him. He wants to make her happy. He wants her approval. I think that he loves her. However, none of that comes before his own needs and his selfish desire to win.

I agree that her walking away is more impactful - and more likely to lead him into full on Saul. There will be no one in his life to restrain his worst impulses, and he will know that he'll never be good enough for a woman as good as Kim.

I don't see his actions as a selfish desire to win as much as they are his natural method of approaching problems. He's got more than a little showman in him, and he learned early on that being a shark was being a winner. Okay, that last bit probably negates my statement that his actions aren't a selfish desire to win, but it still doesn't feel that way to me. 😄

Edited February 28, 2020 by Clanstarling