S05.E02: 50% Off

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

 

I go out of my way to avoid what showrunners are saying. I don't need to be spoonfed or pumped up about an upcoming episode. If I like the series, I'll watch it, and will form my own opinions.  I find if I have no particular expectations, I enjoy it more and tend to be a little more forgiving with weak episodes or endings.  Which doesn't mean there aren't episodes I don't like. I'm just more chill than I used to be. There are enough things in the world to get upset about, I don't need to add another thing to the list.

Plus things from showrunners can often come across differently than they intended, just as it does for people online. Not to mention they might be talking about the thing in a context that changes it. Like, for instance, if they know they're doing interviews that are going to be advertising or whatever where they're being led by the interviewer or trying to talk like the advertising or the new season or whatever. I've had things showrunners (especially Matthew Weiner) said too clearly contradicted by the show itself than to take what they say and how I interpreted it as true. I only care about it in so far as it can make me nervous about where the show is going. After the fact the show speaks for itself and they're just one more comment.

But I've even heard, or instance, Weiner disagree with other writers or actors on commentaries about what happened in a scene without claiming his way was correct.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

22 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

Yes, sorry not Victor, Arturo.

Until Gus threatened Nacho's father, there was no way Nacho would have taken the huge risk he did to ingratiate himself with Lalo, so Gus's threat was entirely necessary.

Edited March 1, 2020 by ItCouldBeWorse

[PeterPirate]

7 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Could you imagine, you go to a museum, look at a painting, and tell your friend how it makes you feel, and then the artist runs in and tells you that you're wrong? It's patently ridiculous. Or if you listen to a song and the writer tells you that your experience isn't what they wanted. Why would a tv show be different?

On the flip side, I think there's value in learning what the artist was trying to create.  For example, it was decades before I found out what "25 Or 6 To 4" meant.  I have also learned a lot about choices in lighting and camera lenses from listening to commentary tracks.  The way I look at it, even if I don't agree with what they are saying, I am still listening to highly intelligent people talk about the creative process.    

On the flip flip side, listening to Aaron Sorkin on a West Wing commentary track is downright painful.

7 hours ago, Christina said:

Thank you both. I figured it was part of the poker game so I payed more attention the second time and still missed it. It was probably because I was annoyed by Lalo's mere presence.

You're welcome.  And I need to add that I actually "got it" from reading the script, not from watching the episode.  

[DoctorAtomic]

45 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

On the flip side, I think there's value in learning what the artist was trying to create.

That's entirely different that 'You just watched X. We asked the showrunner to explain it for you. Click here to read the interview.'

Which is way way way too much of a trend. 

[nuraman00]

On 2/29/2020 at 2:44 PM, PeterPirate said:

Kaylee is 10 in BB (revealed in Madrigal), so she is no more than 8 in this episode.  The actress who played Kaylee in this episode is also 10.  Kaylee's age is somewhat hard to pin down.  On the one hand, she had some pretty long lines for a young child.  On the other, she was not good in math.  

I think they made her older in BCS.

 

If she was 10 in the Madrigal episode, which aired in 2012, and she's 8 in 2005 according to BCS 50% off,  then they made her a lot older in the BCS timeline.

 

I guess the benefit is that her character development increases, compared to BB.

[ShadowFacts]

14 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Until Gus threatened Nacho's father, there was no way Nacho would have taken the huge risk he did to ingratiate himself with Lalo, so Gus's threat was entirely necessary.

I don't know. Why would Nacho not just take any order from Gus and follow it, after having seen him suffocate Arturo? Of course he didn't have to go the route he did on the rooftop getting the drugs, that opportunity just presented itself. I think the whole threat to Nacho's father was overkill. We get that Gus is ruthless and will have his way. (Until he doesn't, which I'm sure is what Lalo is here for.) That Nacho is even alive is completely at the whim of Gus, who not only can do to him what he did to Arturo, but knows that the Salamancas will do the same if it gets out that Nacho tried to kill their Tio. To me any further threats are anvils.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I don't know. Why would Nacho not just take any order from Gus and follow it, after having seen him suffocate Arturo? Of course he didn't have to go the route he did on the rooftop getting the drugs, that opportunity just presented itself. I think the whole threat to Nacho's father was overkill. We get that Gus is ruthless and will have his way. (Until he doesn't, which I'm sure is what Lalo is here for.) That Nacho is even alive is completely at the whim of Gus, who not only can do to him what he did to Arturo, but knows that the Salamancas will do the same if it gets out that Nacho tried to kill their Tio. To me any further threats are anvils.

I feel like Nacho wasn't working that hard to ingratiate himself with Lalo until Gus threatened his father. Protecting him was the whole reason he took the huge risk in switching Hector's pills.  He'll go to great lengths to do so, and Gus figured that out. Of course, now Nacho is also motivated to try to figure out a way to take down Gus, but Gus is no Hector and that would be nearly impossible for Nacho to do.

Edited March 2, 2020 by ItCouldBeWorse

[JudyObscure]

Kids usually start learning their times tables at age 7 and continue through age 8.  Kaylee could be either age and she seemed perfectly "good at math," to me, if she can work it in her head based on football scores.  We learned the tables by rote when I was in second grade, my son learned them by the songs on Sesame Street.  I still love the "Nine" song.

[PeterPirate]

On 2/29/2020 at 2:44 PM, PeterPirate said:

Kaylee is 10 in BB (revealed in Madrigal), so she is no more than 8 in this episode.  The actress who played Kaylee in this episode is also 10.  Kaylee's age is somewhat hard to pin down.  On the one hand, she had some pretty long lines for a young child.  On the other, she was not good in math.  

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

Kids usually start learning their times tables at age 7 and continue through age 8.  Kaylee could be either age and she seemed perfectly "good at math," to me, if she can work it in her head based on football scores.  We learned the tables by rote when I was in second grade, my son learned them by the songs on Sesame Street.  I still love the "Nine" song.

Yes, I should clarify that in my previous post, I meant that Kaylee was not good in math for a 10 year old.  That's why I think she is only 7 or 8.  

Edited March 2, 2020 by PeterPirate

[ShadowFacts]

2 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I feel like Nacho wasn't working that hard to ingratiate humself with Lalo until Gus threatened his father. Protecting him was the whole reason he took the huge risk in switching Hector's pills.  He'll go to great lengths to do so, and Gus figured that out. Of course, now Nacho is also motivated to try to figure out a way to take down Gus, but Gus is no Hector and that would be nearly impossible  for Nacho to do.

I agree Nacho's major motivation is to get himself and his father out alive. We have seen him with alias ID in his safe, I think, but it's so long ago I might have that wrong. Nacho isn't nearly smart enough to outfox Gus, from what we've seen so far. Early on Mike observed him dealing on his own on the side while working for the Salamancas. Gus knew he switched the pills. He doesn't cover his tracks well enough. Of course we're all rooting for him, we don't want him or his father dead. We don't see him in Breaking Bad, only an Ignacio is mentioned in passing, so he doesn't necessarily have to be dead or gone with a new identity, he could be in prison. There are several ways he could go, especially since he's a double agent and doubly in danger from the 'big fish' in the drug trade. The little fish either become big fish or get eaten. They're all temporary, they all get wiped out and replaced, as we know from BB.

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Yes, I should clarify that in my previous post, I meant that Kaylee was not good in math for a 10 year old.  That's why I think she is only 7 or 8.  

She's definitely only seven or eight. If she were ten years old at the current point in the BCS timeline, early 2004, she'd be like fourteen or fifteen by the time we see her playing in the playground with Pop-Pop in Breaking Bad circa 2008-2009.

The first real problem with Kaylee's age is that they didn't recast the role in Breaking Bad, so that she appeared to be like eight years old when she first appeared in season 2, but then when she reappeared in season 5 she was two years older even though a few months had passed in the timeline of the show. So eventually they decided to split the difference and make her ten.

But even that meant that if they brought the character back in Better Call Saul, which was initially set in 2002, she would have to be like four years old, and four-year-olds are a pain in the butt to write for and direct. So they ultimately retconned her Breaking Bad age to twelve, making her about five or six in BCS season 1 and seven or eight now. Which mostly makes sense, except that she's an awfully guileless twelve-year-old in her Breaking Bad appearances.

[JudyObscure]

4 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

We don't see him [Nacho] in Breaking Bad, only an Ignacio is mentioned in passing, so he doesn't necessarily have to be dead or gone with a new identity, he could be in prison.

I'd like to see Nacho and his father running a Mexican restaurant in Alaska, next door to a handmade furniture and wood crafts shop.

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

She's definitely only seven or eight. If she were ten years old at the current point in the BCS timeline, early 2004, she'd be like fourteen or fifteen by the time we see her playing in the playground with Pop-Pop in Breaking Bad circa 2008-2009.

The first real problem with Kaylee's age is that they didn't recast the role in Breaking Bad, so that she appeared to be like eight years old when she first appeared in season 2, but then when she reappeared in season 5 she was two years older even though a few months had passed in the timeline of the show. So eventually they decided to split the difference and make her ten.

But even that meant that if they brought the character back in Better Call Saul, which was initially set in 2002, she would have to be like four years old, and four-year-olds are a pain in the butt to write for and direct. So they ultimately retconned her Breaking Bad age to twelve, making her about five or six in BCS season 1 and seven or eight now. Which mostly makes sense, except that she's an awfully guileless twelve-year-old in her Breaking Bad appearances.

Honestly, all this talk about Kaylee's age has me mystified.  As far as I know, there is only one reference to her age in BB, and none at all in BCS.  All discussion about seems to be based on peoples' perceptions about the character and the actress playing her.  Is there some bit of canon that I'm missing?  

[TVFan17]

Seeing what a dangerous position Nacho is in, caught between the Salamancas and the Gus Fring camp, and running the risk of Lalo finding out what Nacho has been up to, I cannot even imagine a scenario in which both Nacho and his father make it out of this series alive.  Nacho is in such a terrible spot, but it will likely only get worse.

Nacho might be able to get his father to safety, vowing to join him later, and then end up getting himself killed.  Or his father could get killed, causing Nacho to go on a rampage.

But maybe, just maybe, Robert Forster was able to film a scene in which he takes a call from Nacho, asking about a vacuum.  I'm hoping.

But there certainly is also a possibility of Nacho simply ending up in prison, of course. 

All we know is that Saul had some reason to think that Lalo could possibly send someone to capture and/or kill Saul, and that whatever it is that happened to cause this belief was supposedly something that Nacho was responsible for.  And we know we are going to finally get the answers to this mystery somewhere in the remaining 21 episodes of this series (8 more to go in this season, and 13 episodes in the final season).

Edited March 2, 2020 by TVFan17

[Dev F]

6 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Honestly, all this talk about Kaylee's age has me mystified.  As far as I know, there is only one reference to her age in BB, and none at all in BCS.  All discussion about seems to be based on peoples' perceptions about the character and the actress playing her.  Is there some bit of canon that I'm missing?  

There's no explicit mention of her age in BCS, but they do mention that Kaylee is in school, and she's verbal enough that I don't see a way to read her as younger than maybe five at the start of the series. And that's in line with her being seven or eight by the current season, which is how old she'd have to be if she's learning her multiplication tables in school.

As for the retcon making her twelve years old in Breaking Bad, that comes from various BTS comments by the Better Call Saul writers -- for instance, this Reddit AMA by Vince Gilligan from right after the first season aired:

"Kaylee is NOT a toddler vampire, to the best of my knowledge. Kaylee (as portrayed on Breaking Bad) is about twelve years old, and six years earlier she’s played by an actress who is about five, so her age is played out correctly to my knowledge."

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I'd like to see Nacho and his father running a Mexican restaurant in Alaska, next door to a handmade furniture and wood crafts shop.

I second that scenario.

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Honestly, all this talk about Kaylee's age has me mystified.  As far as I know, there is only one reference to her age in BB, and none at all in BCS.  All discussion about seems to be based on peoples' perceptions about the character and the actress playing her.  Is there some bit of canon that I'm missing?  

I guess the canon is that she was 10 in 2009. So in 2002 when the events of BCS begin, she would have been only 3 or 4. She didn't seem that young to me when we first saw her so I think it's a bit weird but I can understand why they'd want her to be older for Mike to interact with.

[SoMuchTV]

You know all those kids in all those shows who were born in season 4 and started kindergarten in season 6?  All those years went into a time-bank that Kaylee can now draw on when she starts getting too old for the storyline. 

[PeterPirate]

On 3/2/2020 at 1:31 PM, Dev F said:

As for the retcon making her twelve years old in Breaking Bad, that comes from various BTS comments by the Better Call Saul writers -- for instance, this Reddit AMA by Vince Gilligan from right after the first season aired:

"Kaylee is NOT a toddler vampire, to the best of my knowledge. Kaylee (as portrayed on Breaking Bad) is about twelve years old, and six years earlier she’s played by an actress who is about five, so her age is played out correctly to my knowledge."

I'm going to go with "Vince Gilligan is not good at math", or "TV writers are not good at math".  I just don't see anything in either show that indicates that Kaylee, the character, was older than what was said in the show.  And I think the first girl who played Kaylee was only 4 when the show started.  

Edited March 9, 2020 by PeterPirate

[scenario]

On 3/2/2020 at 6:56 PM, SoMuchTV said:

You know all those kids in all those shows who were born in season 4 and started kindergarten in season 6?  All those years went into a time-bank that Kaylee can now draw on when she starts getting too old for the storyline. 

When I was a kid, I watched the soaps with my mother. 7 year old kids would go off to camp and come back a couple of months later from medical school. There were a few 30 year old great great great grandmothers on the show, if I'm remembering right.

The actress who played Kaylee in BB was the only one that I really didn't want to see in BCS. A teenager playing a 5 year old would look foolish.