S04.E12: Chapter Sixty-Nine: Men of Honor

[Bort]

Archie grows concerned for Frank after someone from his past arrives in Riverdale. Betty and Alice's investigation into incidents at Stonewall Prep leads them on a collision course with their number one suspect. Jughead challenges Bret to a duel to settle their grievances, while Toni, Kevin and Fangs seek revenge against Nick St. Clair, who has shown up unexpectedly in Riverdale. Finally, a trip to New York City gives Veronica an opportunity to catch up with her old friend Katy Keene.

Airdate: Wednesday, February 5, 2020

[SeanC]

The different plot threads on this show often have such wildly contrasting tones that it's funny to see when supporting characters feature in more than one -- like, in the midst of the tickle porn revenge plot, did Kevin mention to the rest of the gang that he had recently been knocked unconscious by a rampaging mercenary who almost killed Archie?

Veronica's plot was, of course, a sort of backdoor pilot, but we seldom get to see her interacting with people from her NYC days (the main one until now being Nick St. Clair, who, coincidentally, was also back this week), so I liked that anyway.

[notcreative enough]

Placing bets that Hermione is lying about Hiram being sick. 

 

[Lady Calypso]

Adults really like trying to kill Archie. Hiram, Dodger, and now Frank's mercenary guy. Poor kid can't catch a break with all of these adults trying to get him killed. I DID have a good chuckle at Kevin randomly showing up, making one of the best lines of the episode, and then immediately getting shoved into a wall and getting knocked out in one hit.

No surprise Frank took off...but was the actor really only slated to appear for three episodes? It feels like a waste. I didn't mind the plot at all...but it felt rushed. 

Unlike the Lodge family stuff, which continues to drag. So now Hiram is randomly not only sick, but dying? Where the hell did THIS come from? The Hermione/Veronica scene felt so misplaced, as if we were missing a couple of scenes in between. Speaking of Hermione, hello! You haven't really been around...at all. 

And, thus, the rum war is over...but what is the new battle going to be? Hiram lying about his illness? Or is he going to be cured? Or will he die because they want to end the Hiram vs Veronica war....and replace it with Hermione vs Veronica? Or Hermosa vs Veronica? Who knows, at this point, and who cares? Although, if this leads to Hiram's death? Good riddance, and about time. 

The Katy Keene stuff..didn't really entice me to want to watch her show, but I'll likely record it and watch at some point this weekend. But I was planning to do that, anyway.

Ok...so I gotta admit, there was a love of blackmail through sexual tapes stuff going on, and both plots contradicted each other in terms of the message. 

On the one hand, the Betty/Jughead stuff with Brett taping people having sex, with the correct message that it's completely wrong.

And then, I know the tickle porn stuff is not exactly as sexual as actual sex, but it felt like a PG replacement for actual sex for some reason...so Toni and Kevin blackmailing Nick with the tickle porn and the message being that we're supposed to be rooting for it to happen? I don't like Nick, I don't see his purpose in showing back up at ALL, but....like, we JUST had Betty talk about how filming someone without their consent doing something sexual is wrong. 

And then we're supposed to be cheering for Toni doing the same thing to Nick because he's a piece of shit? It didn't work for me. 

But then again, this show has a lot of conflicting messages when it comes to sexual acts with the teenagers. Either it's wrong, but only lasts for one episode and then forgotten about (Brett filming people having sex without their consent and the Cheryl/Nick sexual assault; let's be real, the show didn't remember that it happened until they brought the actor back in this episode) or nobody seems to give a shit (this tickle porn stuff, the multiple sexual assaults on Archie which could include Joaquin's kiss on Archie just to stab him as well as the Miss Grundy stuff for sure). 

Or we get Donna also lying about sexual assault....which....no, thank you, show.

Archie/FP's scene was nice. Archie's plots are really the only thing that is truly keeping me around, at this point. The Stonewall stuff is dragging, and it's clear they have just been fiddling about until the reveal of Jughead's "murder".The Lodge stuff is something we've seen a lot. Betty's plots are hit or miss (it seems like the show forgot about Chuck/Chic), and Cheryl's plot is only just becoming more interesting. 

[Snookums]

Quote

like, in the midst of the tickle porn revenge plot, did Kevin mention to the rest of the gang that he had recently been knocked unconscious by a rampaging mercenary who almost killed Archie?

Did ANYONE at Riverdale High care about that? Like, the principal who didn't apparently get a call that a crazed madman was on his way over? The students who were put in danger? Kevin, who endured yet another closed head injury that this show doles out like cupcakes at a sixth grade Valentine's party? Or, indeed, Archie, who at this point should be in traction while somebody spoon feeds him pudding and re teaches him about The Three Bears? 

Every time this show has somebody making a good, non-insane choice, like going to the Sheriff, it immediately has to botch it up by having that authority figure do shit like call a teenager to warn him but not, I dunno, assign a patrol to the school or take him into protective custody or again, warn Principal Honey about something he has a complete right and duty to know! Hell, at this point Chuck and his personal FBI squad should have been locking down the entire town, but Chuck is apparently a revenant that can only draw enough energy to manifest when he's around Betty, so.

Betty and Alice sadly get on best in the wake of one of Alice's terrible, spontaneous outbursts of life-ruining, so this week was like their version of Veronica and Katy's shopping spree. While I agree this crap is draaaaaggggging, the idea that Donna is the Big Bad and--maybe, Brett is in on the setup/fake murder?--genuine genius, writers! Totally go there! (Also TOTALLY called Donna as the kind of liar who appliques fake scars all over her arms.)

Veronica's bit was mostly there to pimp Katy Keen (and I do wonder if the showrunners know that Lacys/Macy's just closed another 150 stores) but Dramatic Reveal! Of easily faked symptom illness! may actually breathe some damn life into her storyline. I totally believe that The Dreadful Hs would make this up, or that Hiram would, because that's the kind of sicko he is. Seriously, he and Alice should date and compare notes on "How To Ruin Your Child's Life."

As for the tickle porn, yeah. Non-consent is non-consent, and while I get that Toni thought this would be "for Cheryl," it's not healthy or good, or legal in the least.  This is the kind of fantasy revenge that gets trotted out on TV but absolutely goes nowhere good in real life, at all.

Oh, and I forgot! Didn't Fang give up a kidney too? Did he have a scar? Were Archie's bear claw swipes showing? This show seems to think of massive soft tissue damage being the equivalent of a zit.

[thuganomics85]

Hey, remember when Principal Honey first showed up and claimed that he was going to keep a tighter watch on the school?  Because now apparently mercenaries can just walk in and beat up his students in the bathrooms, in the hallways, and classrooms with ease.  Safe my ass!  For all of his flaws, Weatherbee would have least gotten there himself, with a bat in hand and ready to throw down.  Honey did absolute shit!

Good thing Archie really is a superhero though, because he seemed to get out of it with only a few bruises after that encounter.  It's either that or the mercenary really isn't good at his job (really, it's both!)  But now it is revealed that Frank used to work for some kind of mercenary organization that did some shady stuff and are cleaning house, so he's already gone, it seems.  I wonder if he's coming back sometime down the line, because it was kind of a waste of Ryan Robbins if this is it for the character.

Betty gets suspended due to the quiz show thing, she and Alice have some nice daughter/mother bonding time, by investigating Bret, and finding out that he apparently secretly records his roommates having sex (of course he does!)  They fail to find the tapes for now, but they do find the stash of confession tapes, and Betty discovers that Donna's confession was that she had an affair and her description is word for word what she told Betty about Mr. Chipping.  So, now Betty thinks Donna is the actual mastermind, and she and Jughead are on the case!

So, the whole tickle porn subplot was to reintroduce Nick St. Clair, and have Toni use it as a way to blackmail him and get revenge for what he did to Cheryl.  I'm all for Toni actually getting to take charge in a storyline, but even by this show's standards, this whole thing is so hilariously dumb.

As for Veronica, she basically on backdoor pilot duty, to get introduce the network's version of Katy Keene.  Lucy Hale was charming enough in the role, but it didn't make me want to rush and see the series.  Still, I might check it out if I have the time.  Oh, and Veronica also finds out from Hermione that Hiram is apparently very sick, and now forgives him.  She and Archie are a lot a like on that front, huh?

The best parts where the Archie/FP scenes, and its made me realize that we really should be getting more of them, because considering how close FP was to Fred, I would think it would have made FP and Archie become closer and support each other more.

[ruby24]

So Hiram is obviously faking this illness, right? To make Veronica love him again? And Hermione, I guess is in on it, since apparently she has no character anymore (also, she literally tried to have him killed, and now she's all broken up about him being sick? That would have occurred to me if I was Veronica, but I guess it might not be real).

Still, if they just wanted Veronica to rejoin her family she could have just caved normally- we could all see it coming anyway.

I had a pretty good laugh watching that Terminator dude coming after Archie and Kevin in the hallways and no one doing anything about it. What the hell was that?! And seriously Archie got his face smashed in a mirror, his head dunked on a sink and toilet, strangled and beaten, and by the end of the episode he is no worse for wear at all. I guess he really is indestructible now after all the beatings he takes.

Looks like next week the show remembers Archie and Veronica are a couple, because I'd sure forgotten. I briefly thought her and Reggie were dating again after seeing them interact in the last episode.

[The Wild Sow]

2 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I had a pretty good laugh watching that Terminator dude coming after Archie and Kevin in the hallways and no one doing anything about it. What the hell was that?! And seriously Archie got his face smashed in a mirror, his head dunked on a sink and toilet, strangled and beaten, and by the end of the episode he is no worse for wear at all. I guess he really is indestructible now after all the beatings he takes.

Yes!  When he went headfirst into a glass trophy case and came up with not a drop of blood, that was it for me.  

And they basically destroyed the restroom, and no one notices?  Not even a shocked reaction from a custodian coming in??

BTW, don't most school restrooms have wall-mounted toilets with a flush-o-meter valve, rather than a tank?

[Diapason Untuned]

11 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

No surprise Frank took off...but was the actor really only slated to appear for three episodes? It feels like a waste. I didn't mind the plot at all...but it felt rushed. 

At least Frank didn't rob Archie on his way out.

 

Quote

Unlike the Lodge family stuff, which continues to drag. So now Hiram is randomly not only sick, but dying? Where the hell did THIS come from? The Hermione/Veronica scene felt so misplaced, as if we were missing a couple of scenes in between. Speaking of Hermione, hello! You haven't really been around...at all. 

Seeing Veronica at all normal with her parents made me think I was watching a different show for a minute. Did she forget all the horrible crap Hiram did to her not that long ago? Was this filmed before the current season as part of the backdoor pilot or something?

 

6 hours ago, ruby24 said:

So Hiram is obviously faking this illness, right? To make Veronica love him again? And Hermione, I guess is in on it, since apparently she has no character anymore (also, she literally tried to have him killed, and now she's all broken up about him being sick? That would have occurred to me if I was Veronica, but I guess it might not be real).

Still, if they just wanted Veronica to rejoin her family she could have just caved normally- we could all see it coming anyway.

It wouldn't be a Lodge family reunion if it wasn't shady.

 

10 hours ago, Snookums said:

Every time this show has somebody making a good, non-insane choice, like going to the Sheriff, it immediately has to botch it up by having that authority figure do shit like call a teenager to warn him but not, I dunno, assign a patrol to the school or take him into protective custody or again, warn Principal Honey about something he has a complete right and duty to know!

To be fair, I heard sirens in the background when Archie was being attacked, so I assumed FP did send someone, they were just late. Totally right about the Mr. Honey thing though.

[HeatLifer]

All I kept thinking about during that Archie-Ted match was that KJ does all his own stunts & I’m like, that boy is really down for anything. Probs one of the craziest fights that we’ve seen on this show with no hospital stay afterwards. Archie is only half human, I’m sure. And, yes, do his “friends” know that he almost died at school or..?? Dear show, CONNECT YOUR CHARACTERS. 

I think I’m ready for Jug to finally “die” so that story can actually get to the good parts because now it just feels like it’s dragging unnecessarily. And I’m still not a fan of how Archie and Veronica haven’t even really been involved until we get to the flash forwards. Do they even know anything about Betty and Jug’s probs with the prep school? Or do they legit find out info when they see Jug’s body and Betty with the rock? Seems a bit late in the game. And are Archie and Jug going to freaking speak before the latter “dies”!? Wtf.

Oh, and haaaate that they have Donna lying about sexual assault. Just...no.

Couldn’t care less about Hiram or the Lodges. Not interested at all to see next week’s Varchie epi where Archie has to give a rat’s ass about a man who tried to kill him. #FreeArchie

[Snookums]

Are Alice and FP still dating/living in the same house? I haven't seen them interact in months. This whole show is like the Crystal Gems came through and bubbled all the different characters and plot lines.

[Chaos Theory]

Honestly I only half watched this episode.  So I might have missed a few things

I completely skipped the backdoor pilot for a new show.   I am kinda done with Nancy Drew so I am not really interested in another Riverdale clone.  
 

i think these kinda shows need to happen at the right time with the right cast and Riverdale did that for me.   It’s a stupid show but I love it.

Mostly I am digging Betty these days and her on again off again relationship with Alice.   I seem to enjoy the show the most when Betty has a good story.

I also liked the comparisons with a bunch of different men on the show and who was “a man of honor” and who wasn’t.    Of course Archie’s uncle was going to skip town.    Of course Hiram is probably faking his illness to keep Veronica close.   Of course Brett lies and cheats.

But on the other side of course Archie continues to try to do the right thing fail as he often dies.   Of course Jughead Exposes Brett.  They are both ultimat men of honor.

[Dobian]

So Archie and Frank took out the Worst Assassin Ever not once, not twice, but three times with the old "hit him in the back of the head" trick.

[SourK]

21 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

And, thus, the rum war is over...but what is the new battle going to be? Hiram lying about his illness? Or is he going to be cured? ...

It'll turn out he needs the blood of a red-haired working-class youth to heal.

My favorite detail is that they didn't even try to tell us what disease he has. They were just like, "All you need to know is that he's super, super sick and it's a non-specific thing you haven't heard of." Hermione either put a lot of forethought into that lie, or someone else put no thought into it. Time will tell.

[mtlchick]

Riverdale is becoming the high school equivalent of Hudson University on Law and Order.  I give props to KJ on going all in on that fight scene but good LORD.  

As soon as Hermonie said "your dad has a disease" I said "this is a ruse for Ronnie to give in to her parents again." 

[Snookums]

4 hours ago, Dobian said:

So Archie and Frank took out the Worst Assassin Ever not once, not twice, but three times with the old "hit him in the back of the head" trick.

A trick so nice, they used it thrice!

[rmontro]

17 hours ago, The Wild Sow said:

And they basically destroyed the restroom, and no one notices?  Not even a shocked reaction from a custodian coming in??

Well, Riverdale is the "murder capital of the world", according to the Katy Keane commercial, so apparently not.  I had to laugh at Kevin's reaction:  "This school is crazy".  He said a mouthful there. 

They said Bret had a restraining order against Betty early in the show, but they spent the rest of the show in close proximity to each other, and it was never mentioned again.  Not sure what Jughead gained by throwing the chess match, then stomping out like he had won.  The stupid duel was his idea, after all.  And I can't believe Bret wouldn't lord it over him regardless.

The family drama with the Lodges is really getting tiresome.  They need to freshen things up with those characters somehow.

[Snookums]

I think Jug's figured out that Brett's one weakness is that he can't stand people not caring what he thinks. Nobody gets that invested in "destroying" the competition and crowing like a rooster on dirty meth about how superior they are unless they desperately, neurotically need an audience. 

Brett is a hollow chocolate Easter bunny of a human and knows it. His family money is the only reason he's got anything at all in life--he's rude, overbearing, sexist, clearly has several substance abuse problems and is, as Jug points out, a terrible writer. He's not only used to not having to try to get all the good stuff, he's basically terrified to at this point. To try would be to announce that he doesn't automatically deserve everything in the world. So when somebody just walks away from the cookies and denies him the opportunity to snatch them out of their hands, he falls apart.

[rmontro]

12 hours ago, Snookums said:

So when somebody just walks away from the cookies and denies him the opportunity to snatch them out of their hands, he falls apart.

I get that,, but I think Bret would have been just as crushed, or more, if Jughead had defeated him.  And like I said, the duel was Jug's idea in the first place.

[ketose]

On 2/5/2020 at 10:42 PM, notcreative enough said:

Placing bets that Hermione is lying about Hiram being sick. 

 

Why wouldn't she make him sicker if she were lying? It was like, well, he's going to get weaker, but we found it early, but we don't know how well the treatment will work. Veronica should have said she'll come back to the family as soon as Hiram is in a wheelchair. Of course, that's like the #3 fakeout in soaps.

[tennisgurl]

Bye bye Frank! Watch out for bears on the way to Alaska! I knew that he had to have a sketchy past or something, but I am glad that, while he ran for it, he was seemingly genuine in his desire to get to know Archie, and he didnt even rob the Andrews on the way out, which is pretty good for sketchy relatives on this show! Archie's story, even when it starts to get Riverdale crazy, continues to be my favorite, its one of the few with an actual real emotional core that feels real, and isnt just random weirdness. 

Poor Archie, some random asshole adult is always trying to murder him, and this wasnt even the result of him joining the mob or becoming a vigilante or whatever, he is just trying to go about his day, and now some random mercenary is trying to beat him to death in the middle of school! Also, I love how this guy can just run into school, in the middle of the day, and just attempt to murder a student, and no one seems to do anything or care. You can hear some sirens way out in the distance, but no other adult wanted to intervene here, or even, like, react? To this very loud and intense fight that destroyed a bathroom? I guess this is just another day in Riverdale. "This school is crazy!" Truer words, Kevin. 

Stonewall having some insane gentlemens agreement style combat series is possibly the least shocking thing about it since we found out that it had a skull and crossbones style secret club. The lines they have actors say on this show are amazing, I truly marvel at their ability to say them with a straight face. "The chess match will settle this!" 

So, when Brett tapes people in compromising situations to blackmail them, its bad, but when Toni does the same thing, its good? Yeah its probably a bit of a false equivalency, considering apparently does it to random people just to be a controlling asshole, while Toni did it to a creepy rapist type to get revenge, but it seems weird to have both plots in the same episode, with seemingly opposite points of view. Its almost like every plot in this show is totally disconnected from each other, so the point that different plots have completely different morals that seemingly contradict each other!

So what was the point of bringing Nick St. Clair back again? To give Toni something to do? We already did a bunch of stuff where we showed people getting revenge on Nick St. Clair for being awful, why bother bringing him back to do it again? Cant they think of something slightly better for Toni to do? 

The scenes with FP and Archie were really good, but it also reminded me of the fact that its been weeks since we got any interaction between Jughead and Archie. Or Betty and Archie, or Veronica and Betty, etc. I guess they'll all have a lot to catch up on when when they finally manage to talk again! Do they even know that Archie was almost killed...again? I know I keep harping on this, but I would think that Archie's best friends would maybe want to check in on him a bit more, considering his father just died!

Meanwhile, Veronica not only wanders into a totally different plot, but a totally different show! Veronica heads to the backdoor pilot portion of the show, and while it wasnt exactly "oh my God I need more of this!" I thought that this seemed to be an alright introduction to this new character. Not sure what the show itself will be about, but I guess I will need to tune in to find out! 

So Hiram, very conveniently, catches some new illness huh? Oh yeah, I am totally sure this isnt a lie that Hermione and Hiram cooked up to bring Veronica back into the family. Sure...

[ketose]

It might be a little unsavory that Toni implied that two guys raped him, as I'm sure Nick didn't see the whole video. This whole underground tickle fetish thing reminds me of Saul Goodman's made up "sitting on pies" fetish.

Of course, this is Chapter Sixty-Nine.

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Meanwhile, Veronica not only wanders into a totally different plot, but a totally different show!

Lol.

I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be watching the Katy Keene show though, so they failed to whet my appetite at least.  Riverdale satisfies my needs for the Archieverse.  How many of these Berlanti shows can there be?

[HeatLifer]

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I know I keep harping on this, but I would think that Archie's best friends would maybe want to check in on him a bit more, considering his father just died!

I’m 100% with you on this. 

[sweetandsour]

I haven't commented on Riverdale s4 so far and haven't read any past episode threads, so pardon if this is a retread - but every time Bret shows up onscreen, I always think, "what a fucking chode."  Like, wow to zero redeeming qualities and one of the most punchable faces I've ever seen.  The actor IRL could be a wonderful person, but I've seen him too much as Bret, so he is forever just a chode to me.

I laughed super hard at the start of Round 2 - The Brawl, as Bret and Jughead assumed their fighting stance.  Jughead hunched over like Quasimodo and sort of pointed his hands down or something.  I'm sure all of the students know about his Serpent history, but if I didn't know it, I would have assumed he was not a good fighter.

As others have mentioned, there was a huge disconnect in why Nick St. Clair now and how Toni chose to deal with him, but!  I did enjoy the little get-together in Cheryl and Toni's bed afterwards when Fangs was cuddling with a teddy bear.

Is it established that Betty and Jughead are 18 now?  And that Moose was 18 pre-Halloween?  Or that Moose's sexual partner was 18?  If not, Bret has basically been producing child pornography.  And even if all four of those people are 18, how long has Bret been filming others in sexual situations and were they all 18?  Dude is a fucking idiot if he's been filming people 17 or under.  It's a terrible, cruel thing to do, period, but he seems to believe the only people who may bear negative consequences are the people he's violated with his hidden camera.  I would like to see that smug little shit go down for something as "unsavory" as child porn - a tougher sell to overlook in his privileged circles than a lot of crimes.

The writing is still such a mess on this show.  Less sensational than s2 and s3, I guess, but still all over the place.

[rmontro]

15 hours ago, sweetandsour said:

Is it established that Betty and Jughead are 18 now?  And that Moose was 18 pre-Halloween?  Or that Moose's sexual partner was 18?  If not, Bret has basically been producing child pornography.

That's a good point, I'm so used to the adult behaviors on Riverdale, I hadn't even considered the idea that they might be minors.  I just assumed they had all been held back in their classes for 4-9 years, depending on the age of the actors (they range from KJ Apa, 22, to Cole Sprouse, 27).

[ahpny]

Quote

Is it established that Betty and Jughead are 18 now?  And that Moose was 18 pre-Halloween?  Or that Moose's sexual partner was 18?  If not, Bret has basically been producing child pornography. 

The age of consent in New York State (presumably the state where "Riverdale" takes place) is 17, but the whole "tickle-porn" tangent is still pretty problematic.

Regarding college choices, it seems odd the universe of college choices seems to be Yale or Barnard. If they're trying to pick from Ivy League schools in or within commuting range of New York City where's the Princeton love? The actor playing Nick St. Clair went there btw.

[sweetandsour]

3 hours ago, ahpny said:

The age of consent in New York State (presumably the state where "Riverdale" takes place) is 17, but the whole "tickle-porn" tangent is still pretty problematic.

Good callout re: age of consent for sex, which is a factor in the legality of the actions of the sexual partners, but I don't think it applies to pornography, right?  Federally, it's 18, black and white, and I don't know if states have their own laws that have dropped the age.  And if they do, I can't imagine that their more lax laws can trump federal laws.  So two 17-year-olds in New York can legally have sex, but they can't be legally filmed having sex.  Anyone who films them having sex has produced child porn.

They may be shades of gray/severity in there if all of Bret's tapes only show "broadcast tv" images of sex where girls never take their opaque bras off and the couple pulls the blankets over them, etc. so you don't really see anything.  But most people having sex with no one watching really do that.

[Josh371982]

On 2/8/2020 at 7:16 PM, rmontro said:

Lol.

I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be watching the Katy Keene show though, so they failed to whet my appetite at least.  Riverdale satisfies my needs for the Archieverse.  How many of these Berlanti shows can there be?

Well Berlanti has This, Chilling Adventures Of Sabrina, Prodigal Son, Katy Keene, The Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, SuperGirl, Batwoman, and Black Lighting also Arrow which Just ended of course  unless I'm wrong about any of them anyone feel free to correct me.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Josh371982

[rmontro]

48 minutes ago, Josh371982 said:

Well Berlanti has This, Chilling Adventures Of Sabrina, Prodigal Son, Katy Keene, The Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, SuperGirl, Batwoman, and Black Lighting also Arrow which Just ended of course  unless I'm wrong about any of them anyone feel free to correct me.

Ah, I didn't know Prodigal Son was a Berlanti show.  Wasn't really sure about the Sabrina show either.  Haven't seen either one of them anyway.  But that's a lot of shows.  Certainly too many for me to watch because I watch too much TV as it is lol.