S15.E11: The Gambler

[Aeryn13]

30 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

He didn't stop Sam from making the bet, he didn't argue with Sam, and said "They matter to us."  She can read people, and she could read that both of them had the will and character of the old heroes.  They had what they wanted, they had a chance to become superheroes, and were willing to give all that up for a group of strangers.  That impressed her, both Winchesters impressed her with that.

It wasn't about the playing, it was about what both were willing to give up, and do for a bunch of people they had just met.

He couldn't have stopped Sam from making the bet so not arguing is pretty meaningless. And his little "to us" addendum was as well. Anyone can tack on after the hero has spoken a la "yeah, me too". 

And the writers aren't subtle or clever. If they wanted to get across that Fortuna didn't want to play Dean, they would have. She wanted to play Sam because she was intrigued by him and not Dean because he was a dumb beach read. The dialogue was the dialogue.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Aeryn13

[Aeryn13]

25 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

Dean was the one who told Fortuna about Chuck and got her to realize that they were in a similar position. Dean got her to open up about her own dealings with Chuck. Dean was the one who established "kinship" for their circumstances which I'm sure went a long way towards getting her to help them.

 

IMO, that's like 5.22 for me in that I would have to squint really hard and twist myself into a pretzel to come away with a favourable reading, contrary to what the episode showed. And I'm just not gonna do that. Either the writers shoe me something overtly as meaningful or they don't.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Aeryn13

[BoxManLocke]

That "you're better than me at almost everything" line was indeed awkward and unnecessary. That's what happens when there's no character development to speak of, you get some pieces of ridiculous/extreme dialogue to try to compensate.

[Harleycat]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

But at some point the show needs to start building Dean up.  It needs to have someone refute these points.

*I don't mean this is a bitch vs jerk context, but from a character standpoint.

I don't know exactly where the bitch/jerk line is with regards to this so I'm going to just strongly disagree because I don't want to cross the line. 

They are building up perfect Dean so it will be super sad when he dies. Dean has no ego, he puts his brother before himself. He knows he is more complex then a beach read but is a perfect gambler, he doesn't lose his cool or show his cards. He is a perfect team player and leader of team free will. He is the perfect older brother who taught Sam how to play pool. It's not really growth and I miss the imperfect Dean who actually made mistakes and grew as a person once and awhile.

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

I agree that she did not want to play Dean and knew she could beat Sam. Greek heroes typically won by currying a goddess's or God's favor who helped them. It would be her thing to give them a boost of luck. It's moot I guess with Just Jack though. 

The only reason Sam won the first time was because Dean drew her into conversation. She said as much.

[7kstar]

Jacks back didn't land well with me.

I'm on the fence about this one.  Yes, much better than last week.  But that Sam would be the one playing for the high stakes was like a anvil that hit me over the head.  Of course it was Sam.   Moments that felt okay, moments that were blah and moments that could have shined. 

I think last week was so bad that it was a relief that this one was a little better.  But not good enough to make me excited about the rest.   I really don't know if it can get better, but I'm pretty sure it won't go like I wish it would.

[ahrtee]

41 minutes ago, Harleycat said:

The only reason Sam won the first time was because Dean drew her into conversation. She said as much.

Isn't that the traditional hustler's play? Let the mark win the first game,  then double the stakes for the rematch and beat him easily. 

 

[SueB]

Well that was fun and meaningful!

LOVED:

- Badass pool playing.  That trick shot to beat Cowboy was awesome.  And Sam may not be in Dean’s league but he could hold his own and win against anyone in the room as well.
- The boys as a team.  I always love their relationship and it was in excellent form tonight.  
- The resolution: she recognized THEM as Big Damn Heroes and bet on them to take on Chuck.
- Their actual superpower is changing people for the better.  Fortunta turned around because of them. That’s a skill Chuck can’t take away.  
- They saved the people. 
- Welcome home Jack. 
 

LIKED:
- The Sheriff who called Cas.  Bless his heart, he joins the list of great one-episode sheriff’s with memorable presence. I just liked him. 
- The bar tender.  Kind, sympathetic. 

NOT SO MUCH:
- Their luck was NOT ‘average’.  Baby is a mechanical device well cared for.  
- Implied Cowboy was just left on the porch to die.  I wish they boys would have asked what they could do and the Cowboy waive them off. It’s implied but it felt like the scene was cut off. 
- Heart eating is gross.  
 

Other thoughts:
- I think Fortunta’s a gambler.  I think she was just using skill against first Dean and then Sam.  I think it’s pretty unambiguous that she recognized they were both hustlers and she steered clear of Dean.  In the final game, she broke first and ran the table. Sam didn’t have a chance.  
- I also think she’s closing up shop and laying low waiting for the outcome of their fight.  
- Just because Jack says he’s powering up to kill Chuck does not mean the boys are going to go along with that.   We’ll find out in 6 weeks. 
 

I enjoyed this episode and am thrilled they are no longer cursed.  I don’t care how they frame it, their luck was aggressively bad.  Now they are back to regular Sam & Dean and they got there by convincing a Pagan God to do the right thing.  

Edited January 31, 2020 by SueB

[catrox14]

Welp, 

I give up.  The show has specifically said that Sam is better at everything than Dean.  It's tripe and trite. I said back in s13 they were trying to turn Sam into Dean.  But nope that isn't good enough.  Sam has to be better than Dean at everything. 

I have never before shouted for Cas to get off my screen. I can't stand him now.  Weird that Cas didn't drop dead when he got Jack back....hmmm. Maybe he's not all that happy about it??

How can Jack kill God?  There has to be balance in the universe.   I can't stand Jack at all. 

I don't even know what I'm watching anymore. 

I'm disgusted with this show right now. 

[catrox14]

Also, way to invalidate all of Dean's legitimate anger towards Jack for killing Mary and his legitimate anger with Cas, by making him check Jack's face closely and then get a nod from Cas that it's Jack.  FUCK THAT.

 

[patty1h]

I liked Cas's choice of alias:  Det. Lizzo.

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Also, way to invalidate all of Dean's legitimate anger towards Jack for killing Mary and his legitimate anger with Cas, by making him check Jack's face closely and then get a nod from Cas that it's Jack.  FUCK THAT.

 

To be slightly fair, Dean does not seem to be on board with Jack being there.  But, it bugs me that Sam is perfectly fine with it and that Dean is even allowing it at all.

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, SueB said:

Well that was fun and meaningful!

LOVED:

- Badass pool playing.  That trick shot to beat Cowboy was awesome.  And Sam may not be in Dean’s league but he could hold his own and win against anyone in the room as well.
- The boys as a team.  I always love their relationship and it was in excellent form tonight.  
- The resolution: she recognized THEM as Big Damn Heroes and bet on them to take on Chuck.
- Their actual superpower is changing people for the better.  Fortunta turned around because of them. That’s a skill Chuck can’t take away.  
- They saved the people. 
- Welcome home Jack. 
 

LIKED:
- The Sheriff who called Cas.  Bless his heart, he joins the list of great one-episode sheriff’s with memorable presence. I just liked him. 
- The bar tender.  Kind, sympathetic. 

NOT SO MUCH:
- Their luck was NOT ‘average’.  Baby is a mechanical device well cared for.  
- Implied Cowboy was just left on the porch to die.  I wish they boys would have asked what they could do and the Cowboy waive them off. It’s implied but it felt like the scene was cut off. 
- Heart eating is gross.  
 

Other thoughts:
- I think Fortunta’s a gambler.  I think she was just using skill against first Dean and then Sam.  I think it’s pretty unambiguous that she recognized they were both hustlers and she steered clear of Dean.  In the final game, she broke first and ran the table. Sam didn’t have a chance.  
- I also think she’s closing up shop and laying low waiting for the outcome of their fight.  
- Just because Jack says he’s powering up to kill Chuck does not mean the boys are going to go along with that.   We’ll find out in 6 weeks. 
 

I enjoyed this episode and am thrilled they are no longer cursed.  I don’t care how they frame it, their luck was aggressively bad.  Now they are back to regular Sam & Dean and they got there by convincing a Pagan God to do the right 

Taking to All Episodes...

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Aeryn13]

Fortuna really was completely dismissive of Dean after "reading" him so her read can`t have impressed her. She laughed and snorted at his comeback to her insult. No idea what she read because it wasn`t why they were there or anything about Chuck. She clearly was surprised to hear all that. 

Which, btw, Dean does get her talking and in the end she loses the first game against Sam but after that she turns to Sam and tells him that "you got me talking...you are good". So even though Dean did that one thing, Sam got the laurels.  

And the kicker in the "you can do everything better" convo? Sam doesn`t even look like he disagrees at all but more like "yeah, totally me". You know when he does look like he disagrees? When Dean says he can beat him at pool. Then Sam looks afronted and as if Dean is delusional. Gee, Sam, even that amount of propping and self-denigrating isn`t enough?

Of course, you`ll notice that Dean didn`t figure out anything about the pool hall or even knew who Fortuna was. 

[Bobcatkitten]

Okay- so I got confused. Help. Sam agrees to play pool and he says for the lives of everyone in there. She says okay - and if I win your lives. They play Sam wins. She says double or nothing and Sam says for the lives of everyone. I thought they already played for that? Then he loses and the next thing we know they walk out.

Also - I had trouble following the Jack thing. He is killing people and eating their hearts? Or angels? And why is this okay? 

[Aeryn13]

3 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Okay- so I got confused. Help. Sam agrees to play pool and he says for the lives of everyone in there. She says okay - and if I win your lives. They play Sam wins. She says double or nothing and Sam says for the lives of everyone. I thought they already played for that? Then he loses and the next thing we know they walk out.

Also - I had trouble following the Jack thing. He is killing people and eating their hearts? Or angels? And why is this okay? 

The first game wasn`t about the lives of the people because Fortuna didn`t agree to that proposal, the first game was for luck. Then she wanted to up the ante by offering super-luck. But here, she did agree to change it to the other people`s lives.  

Jack can do what he wants because he is the mollycoddled little Stu of the show. He could eat babies and it would be fine.

[Myrelle]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Welp, 

I give up.  The show has specifically said that Sam is better at everything than Dean.  It's tripe and trite. I said back in s13 they were trying to turn Sam into Dean.  But nope that isn't good enough.  Sam has to be better than Dean at everything. 

I have never before shouted for Cas to get off my screen. I can't stand him now.  Weird that Cas didn't drop dead when he got Jack back....hmmm. Maybe he's not all that happy about it??

How can Jack kill God?  There has to be balance in the universe.   I can't stand Jack at all. 

I don't even know what I'm watching anymore. 

I'm disgusted with this show right now. 

This is exactly how I feel, too, Catrox.

Exactly.

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Also, way to invalidate all of Dean's legitimate anger towards Jack for killing Mary and his legitimate anger with Cas, by making him check Jack's face closely and then get a nod from Cas that it's Jack.  FUCK THAT.

 

And the same concerning this.

Again exactly the same. 🤬

[Katy M]

35 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Also - I had trouble following the Jack thing. He is killing people and eating their hearts? Or angels? And why is this okay? 

They were angels.  And they were specifically grigorii (sp?).  That was the kind of angel in Angel Heart that was feeding off of people's nightmare like a djinn.  Jack killed to very specific ones who were posing and doctors and eating their patients.  So, in that sense, no I don't see S&D having any problem with him killing them.  The problem lies with those that he killed before he died, and whether he's still soulless or whatever, and how far he's willing to listen to Billie, because he does basically seem to be her puppet.

[Bobcatkitten]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

They were angels.  And they were specifically grigorii (sp?).  That was the kind of angel in Angel Heart that was feeding off of people's nightmare like a djinn.  Jack killed to very specific ones who were posing and doctors and eating their patients.  So, in that sense, no I don't see S&D having any problem with him killing them.  The problem lies with those that he killed before he died, and whether he's still soulless or whatever, and how far he's willing to listen to Billie, because he does basically seem to be her puppet.

Thanks. I had troubling following that.

[Castiels Cat]

37 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The first game wasn`t about the lives of the people because Fortuna didn`t agree to that proposal, the first game was for luck. Then she wanted to up the ante by offering super-luck. But here, she did agree to change it to the other people`s lives.  

Jack can do what he wants because he is the mollycoddled little Stu of the show. He could eat babies and it would be fine.

Yet she gave them both a lot of luck. I think she gave them super luck. She certainly gave them more than Dean won because Sam's double or nothing was lost and he was playing for lives and original luck.

[SueB]

46 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

Also - I had trouble following the Jack thing. He is killing people and eating their hearts? Or angels? And why is this okay? 

He's killing Grigori.  Those are apparently an elite version of angels that were sent to earth to watch over humans at the dawn of time.  They went rogue and were mostly wiped out.  They feed on human souls and have that special blade.  That's how Claire's Mom became so weak.  

So, apparently Billie's 'first' step was for Jack to kill the few remaining Grigori and eat their hearts.  I'm guessing it has to do with soul restoration.  Seems like an inherently evil act -- even if the Grigori are bad guys themselves.  But they went out of their way to say the 1st guy fed off patients and the 2nd fed of children. Implying they were pretty corrupt supernatural entities.

So, I'm not cool with the heart eating. And even if it was a soul-filled Grigori heart, it was still a human host. Jack is half human. Cannibalism is just bad.  Seems like a pretty gross extreme to go to.  Makes me not trust Billie right now.  

Edited January 31, 2020 by SueB

[Castiels Cat]

10 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

That "you're better than me at almost everything" line was indeed awkward and unnecessary. That's what happens when there's no character development to speak of, you get some pieces of ridiculous/extreme dialogue to try to compensate.

It's known as "Sam pimping" in some parts of the internet and it might have been Dean's way of sweet talking Sam or hustling him to get his way because Dean knew that there was a downside to losing. Dean makes the sacrifices to protect Sammy. He also knew that he was the better player. He also knew that Sam's ego wouldn't like it being pointed out.

[Myrelle]

11 hours ago, Binns said:

See, I thought that was really in character for Dean to say. He’s always been like a proud dad of Sam. Sam knows that isn’t true just like everyone else but Dean believes it to be true. 

 

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think it might be the worst thing about him. If he is that pathetic after all this time, what was his journey over the show?

And conversely why does Sam still need that much propping and butt-kissing?

IMO, it's beyond sad, in fact it's even downright tragic, if Dean still believes this.

And I have nothing good whatsoever to say about a Sam who still needs that degree of validation from his brother. 

It's dysfunctional to the max and if neither can outgrow this aspect of their relationship then character growth is virtually impossible.

But yes, some still enjoy it.

 

11 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

But at some point the show needs to start building Dean up.  It needs to have someone refute these points

It doesn't seem that this set of writers wants to build Dean up at all-not while they can find new and better ways to tear him down-like by having him tear himself down every chance he gets.

 

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

11 hours ago, Binns said:

 

 I think current Dean should be mercy-killed as it is.

I'm sorry to say this, but I have to agree; and who knows, maybe that's where the story is going.

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

Makes me not trust Billie right now.  

I've never trusted Billie.  She always seems like she has an angle she's not telling you. But, I also like that about the character.

 

9 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And I have nothing good whatsoever to say about a Sam who still needs that degree of validation from his brother. 

Sam's not responsible for what Dean says about him any more than Dean is responsible for what Sam says about him.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

To be slightly fair, Dean does not seem to be on board with Jack being there.  But, it bugs me that Sam is perfectly fine with it and that Dean is even allowing it at all.

Sam was never against Jack and he seemed to not care that Mary was dead either. So him embracing Jack was no surprise. If Dean disallowed Jack's presence then Cas and Dean are on the outs again.

That said, the  only way they can walk this back is for Jack to to do something that not even Cas can tolerate and he sides with Dean against Jack but why would he if Jack is the way to kill Chuck? At this point, I don't see Dabb moving away from the throughline he's been setting up for Jack to be the new God.

It's just so dumb. 

IMO, This could also be saved and be much more interesting if it was OGMichael!Dean and Lucifer!Sam going against Chuck or even a swerve of them having to take out Jack should he become God because he's soulless. But fat chance that happens.

Speaking of soulless things, does Chuck/God have a soul?

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, This could also be saved and be much more interesting if it was OGMichael!Dean and Lucifer!Sam going against Chuck or even a swerve of them having to take out Jack should he become God because he's soulless. But fat chance that happens.

I'm not into the Michael/Lucifer thing, but I would love it if Sam and Dean had to take Jack out after he took Chuck out (which I'm also not into).  I am still trying to figure out a way for Chuck to be an impostor.  I would take pretty much any crazy retcon stupid thing they do to achieve that end.  Because, seriously, making God the big bad is the stupidest decision that any show has ever made in the history of TV.

 

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Speaking of soulless things, does Chuck/God have a soul?

I wouldn't think so. 

[Bessie]

At the end, when the boys returned to the bunker and the two angels waiting for them, I finally figured out my ideal ending: Blow up the bunker with chuck, castiel, Jack and any other angel-related creatures. Then, show the boys returning to crappy hotels rooms and life on the road, fighting the good fight.

This episode was a perfect encapsulation of why I used to love this show and why it’s so bad now. 

[Aeryn13]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Speaking of soulless things, does Chuck/God have a soul?

No, he is like his alter ego Dabb.

Btw, I wonder why Cas didn`t immediately drop dead upon finding Saint Jack. I mean, he has been obsessed with the nougat for years now. Shouldn`t that had made him perfectly happy?

I can`t stand Chuck the douchey villain but I hope he somehow beats the crap out of Jack and his overhyped God powers.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

53 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I am still trying to figure out a way for Chuck to be an impostor. 

As soon as he started his muah-ha-ha moustache-twirling, I figured it was not-yet-dead-Gabriel in disguise. Easily ret-conned as him slipping through the rift before it after Trickster-ing himself into the guise of one of hunters-with-no-names. Pissed off with them for leaving him for dead, he decides on the ultimate mind-fuck. Since canon means zero on this show, the fact that Amara thinks he's Chuck would be hand-waved.

40 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Btw, I wonder why Cas didn`t immediately drop dead upon finding Saint Jack.

Because my wishes never come true.

[Lemuria]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

The problem lies with those that he killed before he died, and whether he's still soulless or whatever, and how far he's willing to listen to Billie, because he does basically seem to be her puppet.

And the fact that he still expresses absolutely no remorse for killing Mary.  (And, no, IMO, he didn't do that last season, either.  He seemed more concerned that the brothers would be angry with him over it, than with Mary's death itself.  Odd, considering we were told how mch they presumably bonded on AU!Earth.)

And Jack remains as dumb as a rock.  In his time on the show, we never saw him mature or apparently learn anything--or particularly want to.  Remember the whining when he was fully human and being bested by Bobby in training sessions? "How long until I get my power back?" not "I'm going to learn how to fight the de-powered wayno matter what it takes."  That episode with the teenagers, he seemed to have mentally regressed.

Not to mention, he keeps making the same mistakes (so maybe he really IS related to Sam and Cas): Here, he shows again that he can be led around by anyone.  First Duma, now Death.  "Go out and kill some angels to get the power to take on Chuck."  Why would eating human hearts--because that's what the vessels were--add to Jack's power?  It's not as if souls reside in the hearts, so he's not gaining the human spark plug advantage.  (Not to mention, we saw that the combined power of all of the angels in Heaven couldn't even dent Amara.  She may be slightly more powerful than Chuck but not necessarily so much so that taking whatever the Grigori have should matter.)

What happens now that he's run out of Grigori?  Does he go after other angels?  "Head for the door, Cas!"

I did find the comment upthread funny that apparently Jack's return isn't enough to send Cas to the empty. 😉

I did not initially care for Dean's self-deprecating comment, especially in light of Sam's non-reaction to it (yes, Sam did say that he learned everything from Dean but, hey, the student can surpass the teacher, right? 😝).  And I know that Dabb tends to stay on the surface but I also know that it isn't true based on what we've seen in the show up until recently, especially when Dean and Sam have gone head-to-head:  Dean usually out-tactics Sam.  (Look at "Citizen Fang:"  Dean knew, from Sam's reaction to Benny and some other things Sam had said, that Sam would end up betraying him yet again, and he planned for it.) And he know how stubborn Sam can be.

So based on the Dean-Sam dynamic we've seen, I know that Sam would have fought Dean over who got to play initially.  I think the last thing Dean wants to hear yet again is that he's bossy and putting Sam at the kiddie table.  But by putting it the way he did, he boxed Sam into a corner where Sam really couldn't object anymore without being seen to be trying to take away the one thing Dean was holding on to as something he was better at.

Nicely played, Dean. 

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

And Jack remains as dumb as a rock.  In his time on the show, we never saw him mature or apparently learn anything--or particularly want to.  Remember the whining when he was fully human and being bested by Bobby in training sessions? "How long until I get my power back?" not "I'm going to learn how to fight the de-powered wayno matter what it takes."  That episode with the teenagers, he seemed to have mentally regressed.

This bothers me less than with other characters seeing as how he's only actually like 2 years old.  Actually, it's probably the one aspect I like about the writing of Jack.  That he does sometimes have the characteristics of a very young child.

[Lemuria]

Just now, Katy M said:

This bothers me less than with other characters seeing as how he's only actually like 2 years old.  Actually, it's probably the one aspect I like about the writing of Jack.  That he does sometimes have the characteristics of a very young child.

My problem with this, though, is that while he is chronologically 2 years old, he wasn't born with the brain of an infant.  He was born with a mature brain that just lacked knowledge--but he hasn't grown, learned or matured any since then, IMO.  Actual children learn faster than Jackey Sue.  

Not to mention FetusJack was smarter, cleverer, more knowledgeable, more deceptive and manipulative and more genuinely dangerous than Jack--who is dangerous because he's overpowered and has never bothered to learn (or sought to learn) control.  (Sam made a big mistake IMO at the beginning with Jack, mostly I assume because we find out that he wanted Jack's powers to open a gate to find Mary:  He should not have been trying to teach Jack to use his power; he should have been working to teach Jack control.)

[SueB]

I see Dean's: 'you're better than me at everything else but...' and Sam's: 'I learned from my brother' (when complimented by Fortuna) as two sides of the same coin.  They're brothers.  They love each other (as brothers... this is not a Wincest endorsement).  They have each other's back and believe in each other.  Sam accepts Dean's initial "me only" plan because it only risks one and Dean is the better player.  Dean accepts Sam taking the bet because the circumstances had changed and he had faith in his little brother.  Mutual respect.

And they are a helluva team.  Dean was single-minded about 'battle with God' but listens to Sam's concerns and once the full picture is evident, is on board with solving the 'case'.  Their first plan post losing was to come up with a way to research how to take Fortuna out.  Winchester 101.  Regardless of luck. 

And speaking of luck, I think we had a definitive comment bad by both boys when it came to their circumstance in their response to Fortuna:

Quote

Fortuna: So, why do you need this luck so bad? Girlfriend problems? Liver failure.
Sam: Accursed by God.  
Fortuna (misunderstanding): Life's a bitch, then you die.
Dean: The God.. literally cursed us.
Fortuna: You've met?
Dean: Yeah. Little guy, squirelly as hell. 
Fortuna: Yeah, that's him. Well, welcome to the club. 

So while the gags have been about being normal, when push came to shove, Sam & Dean know they were cursed.  God did this to them.  Not "God took away our extraordinary luck."  Constant car failure is not luck, it's jinxed.  Whatever Fortuna gave them, removed that curse or blocked it.  Good on her.  

[Myrelle]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Fortuna really was completely dismissive of Dean after "reading" him so her read can`t have impressed her. She laughed and snorted at his comeback to her insult. No idea what she read because it wasn`t why they were there or anything about Chuck. She clearly was surprised to hear all that. 

Which, btw, Dean does get her talking and in the end she loses the first game against Sam but after that she turns to Sam and tells him that "you got me talking...you are good". So even though Dean did that one thing, Sam got the laurels.  

And the kicker in the "you can do everything better" convo? Sam doesn`t even look like he disagrees at all but more like "yeah, totally me". You know when he does look like he disagrees? When Dean says he can beat him at pool. Then Sam looks afronted and as if Dean is delusional. Gee, Sam, even that amount of propping and self-denigrating isn`t enough?

Of course, you`ll notice that Dean didn`t figure out anything about the pool hall or even knew who Fortuna was. 

Taking to B vs J...

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

And the fact that he still expresses absolutely no remorse for killing Mary.  (And, no, IMO, he didn't do that last season, either.  He seemed more concerned that the brothers would be angry with him over it, than with Mary's death itself.  Odd, considering we were told how mch they presumably bonded on AU!Earth.)

And Jack remains as dumb as a rock.  In his time on the show, we never saw him mature or apparently learn anything--or particularly want to.  Remember the whining when he was fully human and being bested by Bobby in training sessions? "How long until I get my power back?" not "I'm going to learn how to fight the de-powered wayno matter what it takes."  That episode with the teenagers, he seemed to have mentally regressed.

Not to mention, he keeps making the same mistakes (so maybe he really IS related to Sam and Cas): Here, he shows again that he can be led around by anyone.  First Duma, now Death.  "Go out and kill some angels to get the power to take on Chuck."  Why would eating human hearts--because that's what the vessels were--add to Jack's power?  It's not as if souls reside in the hearts, so he's not gaining the human spark plug advantage.  (Not to mention, we saw that the combined power of all of the angels in Heaven couldn't even dent Amara.  She may be slightly more powerful than Chuck but not necessarily so much so that taking whatever the Grigori have should matter.)

What happens now that he's run out of Grigori?  Does he go after other angels?  "Head for the door, Cas!"

I did find the comment upthread funny that apparently Jack's return isn't enough to send Cas to the empty. 😉

I did not initially care for Dean's self-deprecating comment, especially in light of Sam's non-reaction to it (yes, Sam did say that he learned everything from Dean but, hey, the student can surpass the teacher, right? 😝).  And I know that Dabb tends to stay on the surface but I also know that it isn't true based on what we've seen in the show up until recently, especially when Dean and Sam have gone head-to-head:  Dean usually out-tactics Sam.  (Look at "Citizen Fang:"  Dean knew, from Sam's reaction to Benny and some other things Sam had said, that Sam would end up betraying him yet again, and he planned for it.) And he know how stubborn Sam can be.

So based on the Dean-Sam dynamic we've seen, I know that Sam would have fought Dean over who got to play initially.  I think the last thing Dean wants to hear yet again is that he's bossy and putting Sam at the kiddie table.  But by putting it the way he did, he boxed Sam into a corner where Sam really couldn't object anymore without being seen to be trying to take away the one thing Dean was holding on to as something he was better at.

Nicely played, Dean. 

When Sam was drinking demon blood it WAS demon blood even though the vessels were human. Likewise I guess these were ANGEL HEARTS even though the vessels were human because powerful evil soul eating Grigori Angels were possessing the bodies.

[Castiels Cat]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

He's killing Grigori.  Those are apparently an elite version of angels that were sent to earth to watch over humans at the dawn of time.  They went rogue and were mostly wiped out.  They feed on human souls and have that special blade.  That's how Claire's Mom became so weak.  

So, apparently Billie's 'first' step was for Jack to kill the few remaining Grigori and eat their hearts.  I'm guessing it has to do with soul restoration.  Seems like an inherently evil act -- even if the Grigori are bad guys themselves.  But they went out of their way to say the 1st guy fed off patients and the 2nd fed of children. Implying they were pretty corrupt supernatural entities.

So, I'm not cool with the heart eating. And even if it was a soul-filled Grigori heart, it was still a human host. Jack is half human. Cannibalism is just bad.  Seems like a pretty gross extreme to go to.  Makes me not trust Billie right now.  

Apparently the ends justify the means. She's all about the natural order... and fixing the Winchesters mistakes... and now Chuck is on the hit list I guess.

[Myrelle]

42 minutes ago, Katy M said:

This bothers me less than with other characters seeing as how he's only actually like 2 years old.  Actually, it's probably the one aspect I like about the writing of Jack.  That he does sometimes have the characteristics of a very young child.

And I, OTOH, hate this with the fire of ten thousand suns because of this

44 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

My problem with this, though, is that while he is chronologically 2 years old, he wasn't born with the brain of an infant.  He was born with a mature brain that just lacked knowledge--but he hasn't grown, learned or matured any since then, IMO.  Actual children learn faster than Jackey Sue

and likely because the actor just isn't bringing it for me either-not in this role and not in the other one they had him in earlier in the season.

To me both the actor and the characters they've given him scream nothing more than Cousin Oliver; and Dabb and his cohorts Sue-ing him up to the degree that they have has only made matters worse.

If these last two episodes are indicative of what's coming for the rest of the season, I don't know what to say, but talk about going out with a whimper. 

They can barely get a million fans ro watch this drek live now, when for the longest time(and even when the writing was continuing it's downward spiral), 2 million was the norm.

Everyone associated with the show should be concerned, if not totally embarrassed, IMO. 

Now, it really does feel to me what JP called it-like a sick, old dog that needs to be put down and put out of it's misery.

Honestly, I cannot convey in words how sad and disappointing and even depressing it feels to have write stuff like this about this show that I used to love so much; but I just want it to end now.

Nothing else because I feel like there is no hope while Dabb and co. are writing it-and again, especially not after these last two episodes. 

 

 

 

[Casseiopeia]

 

[Lemuria]

To add to that (I'm posting the link because I can't seem to figure out how to put in the actual tweet):

JA even made the trick shot on his own

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

To add to that (I'm posting the link because I can't seem to figure out how to put in the actual tweet):

JA even made the trick shot on his own

OT, but for a while now, copy/pasting Twitter links don't automatically format in Firefox or Chrome, but if I post, then immediately go back and edit, just hitting return/enter on the link, it re-formats it. I have absolutely no idea why this happens.

ETA: I am 97% certain Jensen isn't really human.

Edited January 31, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: I am 97% certain Jensen isn't really human.

He's super-human! Seriously, there's apparently nothing the man can't not only learn, but learn expertly. His next gig is going to be incredibly lucky to have him.

Overall, this episode was better than last week's - which really says nothing considering the sewer-level bar set in the previous episode. Anything would have to be better simply by default.

The whole lucky/normal thing is still an epic ton of bullshit. These guys have legit skills. Saying Chuckles cursed them is one believable thing. But trying to tap-dance around whether or not that's the case or their skills and lives are all a result of Chuckles is not.

The Dean digs were unnecessary, just like they were last week. And it's obvious they're always thrown in there to make the other guy - in this case, Sam - look good. And yet, sorry, it doesn't - in fact, it has the opposite effect. The other character looks much weaker if he or she cannot stand on his or her own character traits without trying desperately to push Dean down or out of the way.

And the thing is, Sam has his natural strengths, just like Dean does. They're supposed to compliment each other, not be in competition with each other. That's why they're a team. These writers and showrunners simply do their favorites no favors at all.

Otherwise, any episode that has the brothers working together to solve a problem or work a case is comfort food these days. Fortuna was an interesting character, and the actress who played her was good. I thought all the characters in the pool hall were good.

Of course, it all falls apart when they get back to the bunker and Princess Jackie Poo Sue announces he and he alone will solve the Chuckles problem by repurposing Sam's demon blood storyline. Oh yippee, as if that wasn't bad enough the first time around.

And, of course, no apology whatsoever from the brat for killing Mary. Apparently no one even recalls who Mary was. I'm not sure Sam was ever broken up by her death anyway, which was always weird.

So should the Winchesters just head down to Baja for the rest of the season now that Demon Blood/Heart Munching Jackie Poo Sue is on the case? I think a six-week hiatus is just what the doctor ordered.

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by PAForrest

[BabySpinach]

Ok, so my one comment on this thread got deleted? What the hell?

[Binns]

8 hours ago, Myrelle said:

It's dysfunctional to the max and if neither can outgrow this aspect of their relationship then character growth is virtually impossible.

But yes, some still enjoy it.

They’ve NEVER been functional and they aren’t going to start at this late date. Their relationship is completely fucked up and pathological. But yes...I enjoy it. I enjoy the devotion they have towards each other. They’re the only reason I watch the show. Maybe that makes me simple-minded but we all have different ideas about what’s good and what’s not. I just really don’t want to be in a place where I’m hate-watching like I felt last week. 

[FlickChick]

20 minutes ago, Binns said:

They’ve NEVER been functional and they aren’t going to start at this late date. Their relationship is completely fucked up and pathological. But yes...I enjoy it. I enjoy the devotion they have towards each other. They’re the only reason I watch the show. Maybe that makes me simple-minded but we all have different ideas about what’s good and what’s not. I just really don’t want to be in a place where I’m hate-watching like I felt last week. 

I don't believe that anyone thinks you are simple-minded. I think many of us are just frustrated to no end about the state of the show. I agree with you that I don't want to hate-watch the show either. I just wish with all my heart it wasn't so difficult to like as I did before.

[Binns]

4 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I don't believe that anyone thinks you are simple-minded. I think many of us are just frustrated to no end about the state of the show. I agree with you that I don't want to hate-watch the show either. I just wish with all my heart it wasn't so difficult to like as I did before.

No, I know, I’m really calling myself simple-minded there...my pleasure in the show is derived from the brothers and to a much lesser extent early Cas (not so much lately). I find their relationship so intriguing. At the end of the day, no one in the entire world including himself will ever mean more to Dean than Sam. Sam is maybe a little more self actualized but to me that’s in a lot of ways due to the fact that Dean raised him that way. So I enjoy times like last episode when they are getting along and proud of each other and (to me) playing well off each other. It speaks to where the show is that I’m not invested in other aspects. 

[Whimsy]

We have removed some posts due to being Bitch vs Jerk.  As a reminder, all BvJ posts will removed from any thread other than the appropriate thread. Additional BvJ posts out of the appropriate topic will result in warnings.

[Casseiopeia]

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

OT, but for a while now, copy/pasting Twitter links don't automatically format in Firefox or Chrome, but if I post, then immediately go back and edit, just hitting return/enter on the link, it re-formats it. I have absolutely no idea why this happens.

ETA: I am 97% certain Jensen isn't really human.

[Aeryn13]

I know movie/tv magic is responsible for a lot of amazing moments for characters but there is always an added level of coolness when the actor can do certain things in real life as well. Honestly, this is the kind of fourth wall breaking I love.

[gonzosgirrl]

When Dean approached Jack and put his hand on the back of his neck, my sole thought was: Now. Now would be a good time to put an angel blade through his heart. 

[trudysmom]

I really thought he might snap his neck like that kid in Hunger Games liked to do.  Alas, no.  Dabb's  'we watched you die, we've been sad, all is forgiven' dreck is nauseating.

[tennisgurl]

Well...it was better than whatever the hell last week was at least. 

I will start with what I liked. The guys being able to hustle pool like nobody's business was great to see after last weeks bizarre "hahah, they cant even walk straight without Chuck!" bullshit, and the set up itself was fun and interesting. As inconsistent as they are portrayed in their origin and levels of power, I do always like seeing the pagan gods (and their saltiness towards big G God) and Fortuna was pretty cool as an antagonist, and one that actually has a bit of integrity, letting the luck junkies go and giving Sam and Dean their luck because she was impressed by their chutzpah. It seems very in line with the classic mythology she references, where the hero impresses the goddess with their strength of spirit instead of physical strength and blesses them with her favor. that was all pretty good. The luck dealing pool hall was a cool idea, and I like that, when Sam and Dean figured out what was going on, they tried to help the people inside as much as they could. Thats what makes them heroes and one of the points of their whole quest against Chuck, they care about the random victims of these gods and monsters who only see them as pawns, and will risk it all to save some random barflies they dont know, thats what I like to see. 

On the other hand, I just dont care that much about Jack. I didnt hate Jack the way a lot of people did, but I didnt like the way he seemed to take over the show away from the actual main characters, and now that he is on his own quest to kill Chuck, I guess we get to look forward to more of that. Oh joy. As for Dean forgiving him so easily, I guess not having a soul is a decent enough excuse for killing your absentee mom by accident. What a weird freaking situation, and the framing is even weirder. Its a complicated emotional situation where everyone has understandable reasons for being upset or defensive, but all we got was "Dean is being a jerk and should forgive everyone immediately even if he lost his mom due to bad choices and things out of their control." 

The "Your better than me at everything" line was, sadly, in character for Dean, considering he has insanely low self esteem and always sees Sam as the best person ever who he is responsible for, but the narrative trying to back this up as truth and not just Deans issues is stupid and offensive. I have no idea why this show so often tries to push this idea that Dean is always lesser to Sam, when its so obviously not true.