S04.E07: 407 Proxy Authentication Required

[mxc90]

Quote

First Aired: November 17, 2019

I feud any data.

Source: https://www.tvguide.com/tvshows/mr-robot/episode-7-season-4/407-proxy-authentication-required/678250/

Quote

 Elliot feuds any data.

Source: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8084176/?ref_=ttep_ep7

Edited November 17, 2019 by mxc90

[Guest]

Like Vera, that episode drained the life out of me. 

Jesus.

[Cardie]

Thank heavens someone finally shut Vera up!

DID often has childhood abuse as a trigger but that also makes this reveal seem like a cliche. I’m not seeing the show ending in any sort of compelling way.

[mxc90]

Some bottle episode.

If I ever have trouble sleeping, I'm going to play Vera's speech about his DR trip in Act One to knock me out!

Vera was tearing up and helping/reaching Elliot before Krista stabbed him. But I can't help to think if this was a big lie on Krista's and Elliot's part to get Javi and Peanut out of the room and to get Vera distracted with this story so Elliot can either shoot him or Krista stab him. 

(If it is true) I'm pissed they took it to this level about Elliot's father. Now I can't look at Mr. Robot the same when he appears again. Is Mr. Robot gone for good in Elliot's head. I wonder if Darlene or his mother knew about this? 

So is Elliot in good condition to confront Peanut and Javi? Or just have Krista call the police and Eliiot sneak out the back door.

Krista's neighbors can't hear shooting and screaming? 

Is this still Christmas day? It's night time at the end. What time is Whiterose's big meeting? 

[mtlchick]

If I wasn’t so drained by what happened just before I would have cheered that Vera finally got what he deserved. 
 

Pretty conflicted about the reveal because I had felt that Elliot had some deep problems if his alter ego was his dad, but Darlene was protecting him from a lot, meaning she was carrying that burden for both of them, 

that said Rami acted the hell out of it.

[bobbyjoe]

Ugh, that episode felt like it dragged the whole series over a cliff.  This is not one of those shows that can pull off a sexual assault reveal like that, particularly in how much this is now linked to virtually everything in the series, and have it feel anything less than grossly exploitative.  This is a show that— though it sometimes has been brilliant about it— is often gimmicky, as in “ohmigosh Eliot is really in prison” or “omigosh this person isn’t real” or, in a different sense, “look at how cool this is that the whole episode is filmed like one single take, or that there’s no dialogue in the episode or...”. you get the point.

But having an Act One, Act Two etc mini play that’s set up to reveal that much of what we’ve seen for multiple season is linked to a never before revealed attempt at the sexual assault of a child?  That feels like grafting something that’s waaaaaay too weighty for this show to handle into the whole “surprise!” plot reveal gimmicky thing and you know, please, like, don’t. 

I love this show— it’s frequently been amazing— but this felt like a really, really, really bad decision both in plotting and execution.

[hnygrl]

Dang. Y'all making me scared to finish it. Just  8 minutes in and vera  won't. Shut. Up. 

[hnygrl]

Okay who didn't see that coming a mile away?  For real though. He left his back undefended 

Truth is,Vera saved elliot's life.  Elliot needed to know that stuff. He'd never be whole without dealing with it. 

Don't know how I feel about this one. 

[scrb]

Ok it makes sense but they dragged it out for dramatic effect but it seemed overdone with the music and the thunder.

Ok he concocted the Mr. Robot persona as a coping mechanism, to suppress the horrible thing his father did.

But why didn’t she confront him earlier and tell him he’s going to have to continue therapy?

In any event they overplayed this reveal.  A lot of the show is in Eliot’s head but there has been real events or action to drive the plot forward.

In this episode it’s about the emotional impact of the big reveal when in reality, she would have addressed it with Eliot a long time ago, to help him cope and move forward.

Seems like this Vera plot is just one more thing to overcome as Eliot’s battle with WR is reaching a climax.  Darlene is on the verge of being executed and they devote this whole episode to literally mind games  —  the brinksmanship in the first half followed by the therapy session and the big reveal.

Edited November 18, 2019 by scrb

[Lokiberry]

I must be the audience this episode was aimed at because I loved every minute of it. The over the top music the pointless melodrama of labeling the acts, the constant stream of tears rolling down Vera's face, I thought it was all awesome! And, it gave Rami the chance to really blow the doors off acting wise when the big reveal came. 

Earlier in the season, there was a scene with Mr. Robot and Elliot's mother and younger self in a boardroom saying they were waiting for someone to sit  in the chair at the head of the table. I thought it was maybe going to  be a big reveal of another alter, but this episode provided the cathartic event that will allow Elliot to be in charge now, maybe for the first time in his life.  He will sit in the big chair. He is the storm. 

On a side note, first Wellick and now Vera: Elliot's catnip for psychos. 

[benteen]

Does everything on television have to revole around someone being molested or someone being a pedophile?

The episode was well-acted and well-directed as always and interesting.  But I'm not a fan of the "Mr. Robot was a child molester" revelation.  It colors the previous episodes now in the most unappealing way possible.  It feels like it came out of nowhere and I really wonder if Esmail had this in mind from the beginning or not.  He admitted that Tyrell's fate wasn't determined until he sat down to watch the episode.

A few notes...

-If Krista knew about this, why the hell didn't she start trying to guide Elliot towards this conclusion earlier, instead of sitting on the information like she did?  Especially as she knew how deep Elliot was in the Mr. Robot persona.

-I did get a laugh at Vera's henchmen wanting to see how the show played out.  I thought they would have at least stayed out of Krista's office.

-I guess Vera's purpose this season was to force this matter out.  I still feel Vera could have been wrapped up in the beginning of Season 2 instead of the "Elliot's really in prison" nonsense.

-As bobbyjoe noted, this show loves its gimmicks and it feels like Esmail wanted the 13 episodes so he could do more gimmick episodes.  We really need another 6 episode to wrap up this show?

-Does Darlene know the truth about Elliot's father?  

-I'd like to think Mr. Robot was separate from Elliot's father but I don't know...

-I feel bad for the Mr. Robot cosplayers after this one.

Edited November 18, 2019 by benteen

[truthaboutluv]

It says something when the schizophrenic with multiple personality disorder wasn't the craziest person in the room. Bye Vera. I can't say I'll miss your long winded speeches but you were in your own crazy way, fascinating to watch. But on another note, how long was this walk his two side-kicks went on?

1 hour ago, Lokiberry said:

I must be the audience this episode was aimed at because I loved every minute of it.

So did I.

1 hour ago, Lokiberry said:

The over the top music the pointless melodrama of labeling the acts, the constant stream of tears rolling down Vera's face, I thought it was all awesome! And, it gave Rami the chance to really blow the doors off acting wise when the big reveal came. 

All of this. 

This episode was in my opinion, a showcase of excellent directing, cinematography, writing and acting. Yeah I'm sure we can quibble and nitpick things but considering the amount of crap that's put out there, that was some damn amazing quality television in my opinion. Kudos to Esmail and the entire cast, even the two side kicks. Everyone brought their A-game 

[truthaboutluv]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

-It Krista knew about this, why the hell didn't she start trying to guide Elliot towards this conclusion earlier, instead of sitting on the information like she did?  Especially as she knew how deep Elliot was in the Mr. Robot persona.

My guess is she didn't suspect this until well into their sessions and of course as we know, she stopped seeing him. My guess is she probably did confront Mr. Robot with the truth and he may have threatened her.

Many commented after whichever episode, when Elliot ran into her and her boyfriend, that they were surprised she seemed so scared of him. And they didn't remember her being afraid of him. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, benteen said:

-I feel bad for the Mr. Robot cosplayers after this one.

Not to mention anyone who owns a Mr Robot t-shirt. No longer quite a good look. 

I think I'm ruining this show for myself. Every episode I'm playing a game of, "Who's the Third?" Last night it was Vera's turn. Obviously, he's real because he was Shayla's dealer who supplied Elliot's drugs but I had a hard time believing, based on my years of watching COPS only, in last night's episode that a guy who smoked a ton of meth could be so insightful and wise and, in the end, kind. I also thought his baseball bat story from last episode was conveniently similar to Elliot's own baseball bat story. 

While I don't think he's another Elliot alter, his whole story is just a little too contrived. 

Last night's score reminded me of Hitchcock movies. 

[truthaboutluv]

49 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

While I don't think he's another Elliot alter, his whole story is just a little too contrived. 

Well I think it's safe to say that Vera is (or well was) a complete fucking loon. So personally, I didn't take seriously half the shit Vera was blabbering on about. 

50 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

Last night's score reminded me of Hitchcock movies. 

Yeah me too. You can tell Esmail is one of those filmmakers who truly appreciates all aspects of the art-form. I also wouldn't be surprised if he's one of those creative types who's into all other types of art like music, painting, etc. 

[possibilities]

Wow. It worked for me. What did you all think caused Elliot to dissociate and create another personality? I have never heard of a case that wasn't caused by child abuse. It made perfect sense. And that's how it is-- the person is unable to deal with what is happening, so creates supportive alternates to cope while they are unconscious of what is happening.

Elliot's backstory works. He was trying to protect his younger sister. He didn't have anyone to turn to, since his mother was also crappy, so he split off a part of himself to create a strong adult who he could talk to and who was "protecting" him  from what he couldn't face, but ultimately he could never heal until he was strong enough to reject that stand-in and deal with it himself.

And Krista became like Darlene-- his motivation to protect her made him willing/able to choose to be conscious and this time when he saw Re Robot was interfering with that motivation, he chose to feel the pain of his own loss and was strong enough to face it "alone". So Mr. Robot disappeared.

He was willing to kill himself to protect Darlene (jumping out the window) and to kill Vera et all to protect Krista, and then to kill Mr Robot to protect Krista and himself.

I think it was necessary for Elliot to heal, in order for him to deal with the next steps in whatever happens with the hack, because now he's not at war with himself, he's fully aware and in control and can apply his faculties without distraction.

[Ottis]

Unlike Vera’s henchmen, I was more than happy to leave the room before it ended. So I emptied the dishwasher and cleaned up the kitchen while the ep played.

I likes that we returned to Mr Robot and his existence, where we began. I didn’t like that the big answer was something we already knew, or logically suspected, as viewers. I was hoping for something more surprising. It’s not like we couldn’t tell that Elliot and his sister were damaged. 

The juxtaposition of the Christmas decorations and the dramatic story was interesting visually. And Vera’s ability to talk to Elliott, and see and share his pain was pretty amazing and unexpected. Unless he is another personality of Elliott’s. 

So now can we get back to the plot and happens to all these people?

Edited November 18, 2019 by Ottis

[Cardie]

I don’t think this should make viewers squeamish about feeling positively about Mr. Robot. He is not Mr. Alderson the abuser but the good father whom Elliot needs and who protects him from what the bad father has done. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Cardie

[Anela]

This is another episode where I was thinking, "I really need to be in the right mood for this." I watched it today, because a friend of mine posted on facebook last night, "Wow", so I was expecting something good. It would have been better if there wasn't half-an-hour of Vera's BS leading up to it. 

It was what I expected, once they got the ball rolling, but I hate it when they use a villainous character to extract something like that - to lead two people to admit something. (On the vampire diaries, it was an excuse for someone else to go on about how two people really loved each other, two people involved in a love triangle with the guy's brother).  

[VinylGuy]

ey guys, first post here.

Gotta say, im just loving this season. Its so well crafted, im just amazed. I loved the last ep...I thought it was kinda filler but damn it was not.

It makes sense to me his dad sexually abused him. Specially with those flashbacks.

[catrice2]

Sorry,  unlurking for 2 years to ask what happened to Krista?  One of the reasons I stopped watching was when she was no longer on and it veered  into the Ultra weird. 

[Anela]

1 minute ago, catrice2 said:

Sorry,  unlurking for 2 years to ask what happened to Krista?  One of the reasons I stopped watching was when she was no longer on and it veered  into the Ultra weird. 

She's still alive. She killed Vera. Stabbed him in the back, when he was talking to Elliott. 

[Blindfox]

I loved this episode. Well, not the first half, that literally nearly put me to sleep. The second half woke me back up, though. Finally, an explanation of the window incident. It all makes sense, but somehow I didn’t expect it. I thought Elliot’s condition would have been caused by his mother. Elliot always seemed to have a case of hero worship for his dad, but we as viewers knew that no good dad would simply stand aside and allow his children to live with an abusive mother. Still, I didn’t think the truth would be that dark.

[shapeshifter]

23 hours ago, scrb said:

Ok it makes sense but they dragged it out for dramatic effect but it seemed overdone with the music and the thunder.

Frankenstein homage?
Maybe the thunder and lightning and music were a way to remind us of our own childhood terror when viewing our first horror movies and to convey Elliot's childhood fear.
Anyway, I kept expecting Elliot to throw himself out of that window. Good job of conveying how young Elliot could actually want to throw himself out of a window.
  
 

13 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

I think I'm ruining this show for myself. Every episode I'm playing a game of, "Who's the Third?" Last night it was Vera's turn. Obviously, he's real because he was Shayla's dealer who supplied Elliot's drugs but I had a hard time believing, based on my years of watching COPS only, in last night's episode that a guy who smoked a ton of meth could be so insightful and wise and, in the end, kind. I also thought his baseball bat story from last episode was conveniently similar to Elliot's own baseball bat story. 

While I don't think he's another Elliot alter, his whole story is just a little too contrived

Reading this^ makes me wonder if Vera was an Alter. IDK. Maybe Elliot as Vera killed Shayla and kidnapped Christa.

10 hours ago, Ottis said:

The juxtaposition of the Christmas decorations and the dramatic story was interesting visually. And Vera’s ability to talk to Elliott, and see and share his pain was pretty amazing and unexpected. Unless he is another personality of Elliott’s.

Yes on the Christmas tree lights, and yes on Vera at least being like an Elliot alter -- the one that frightens Christa.
  

6 hours ago, VinylGuy said:

It makes sense to me his dad sexually abused him. Specially with those flashbacks.

The flashback episode from the earlier season in which, while Elliot is being beat up/tortured his mind takes him to the 1950s-style family road trip, makes sense with the reveal of the current episode; I kept recalling it once they started the childhood trauma reveal in this episode. It all makes sense to me. I'm glad I didn't see it coming though.
  

9 hours ago, Cardie said:

Mr. Robot. He is not Mr. Alderson the abuser but the good father whom Elliot needs and who protects him from what the bad father has done. 

Excellent point, but Mr. Robot the alter also keeps Elliot from personality integration. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by shapeshifter

[truthaboutluv]

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Reading this^ makes me wonder if Vera was an Alter. IDK. Maybe Elliot as Vera killed Shayla and kidnapped Christa.

Darlene met Vera. We saw her meeting him at the end of Season 3 when he returned. And we had the conversation this season, which led to the reveal of a possible second alter, that she told Elliot about this guy Vera who came looking for him. Elliot of course didn't remember ever having that conversation with Darlene. I would think Darlene would know if she was talking to Elliot, despite the presence of an alter. 

Two, I cannot imagine that in between trying to stop Whiterose's super powerful Dark Army, Elliot found time to find two goons to work for him and go after Krista. And there was virtually nothing, in my opinion, in the framing of those scenes that suggested Krista was not clearly talking to different people when she addressed Vera and Elliot at various points. 

I guess this is why I've never turned myself in circles regarding this show. While I'm mildly curious about the third alter (which if anything, this week's episode just made me more convinced it's likely teenage Elliot), it's really not a main focus to me that I'm watching every scene now thinking this or that character's not real. 

This reminds me of the latter seasons of Bates Motel where some viewers started questioning every single scene Norman had as potentially not being real, just because we knew he had DID and of course had the "Mother" alter. I honestly don't think it's so complicated. 

As for all those things Vera said or did, as I noted above, honestly, I just assumed most were like me and figured most of Vera's blabbering was him being full of shit. Dude was a fucking mental case. A violent, drug taking mental case. I figured half of the stuff he was bleating on about was him just making shit up. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[eejm]

17 hours ago, Cardie said:

I don’t think this should make viewers squeamish about feeling positively about Mr. Robot. He is not Mr. Alderson the abuser but the good father whom Elliot needs and who protects him from what the bad father has done. 

My husband bought (and loves) the Mr. Robot jacket and hat.  He felt weird about wearing it again and I pointed this out - Mr. Robot is a protector and gets things done, and we’ve seen far more of him in the series than we have Mr. Alderson.

I’d still like to know what was in Mrs. Alderson’s safe deposit box, but I think it was a metaphor for her shitty parenting of her kids.

Edited November 19, 2019 by eejm

[Neurochick]

On 11/18/2019 at 9:23 AM, Lokiberry said:

I must be the audience this episode was aimed at because I loved every minute of it. The over the top music the pointless melodrama of labeling the acts, the constant stream of tears rolling down Vera's face, I thought it was all awesome! And, it gave Rami the chance to really blow the doors off acting wise when the big reveal came. 

Earlier in the season, there was a scene with Mr. Robot and Elliot's mother and younger self in a boardroom saying they were waiting for someone to sit  in the chair at the head of the table. I thought it was maybe going to  be a big reveal of another alter, but this episode provided the cathartic event that will allow Elliot to be in charge now, maybe for the first time in his life.  He will sit in the big chair. He is the storm. 

On a side note, first Wellick and now Vera: Elliot's catnip for psychos. 

I'm with you.  I haven't liked this season, but I thought this episode was great.  But the thing was, Vera wasn't free because he was an addict.  How can he be "the storm" if he's addicted to crack?  

I think Vera knew that Elliot had some deep, dark secret.  When he told Elliot what happened to him as a child, I thought, "yep, I'm not surprised."  

Krista probably would have gotten "there" with Elliot, had he not hacked her.  Remember when they were in the street, she told him he wasn't supposed to be around her.  That's why it never came out.

Anyway, I loved the episode, and Rami acted the hell out of it.  

The thing is you just never know who sexual abusers are and that's how they hide in plain sight.

One more thing, great to see Gloria Reuben on this show.  I've been watching her since the 90's, she's had such an interesting career.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Neurochick

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, eejm said:

My husband bought (and loves) the Mr. Robot jacket and hat.  He felt weird about wearing it again and I pointed this out - Mr. Robot is a protector and gets things done, and we’ve seen far more of him in the series than we have Mr. Alderson.

I’d still like to know what was in Mrs. Alderson’s safe deposit box, but I think it was a metaphor for her shitty parenting of her kids.

I am a female and was seriously thinking about going as Mr. Robot for Halloween.

I am so glad that I did not. 

Sorry, head Mr. Robot is just Elliot's manifestation of a monster and just makes the character worse for me.

I really need to know if Darlene knew about the abuse? It honestly seems like she had no idea or she repressed any clues.

Good Lord, Elliot had a horrible childhood. His mother physically brutalized him and his father's love was twisted with awful sexual abuse.

Darlene and Elliot had a sadist and a pedophile for parents. That is almost the worst combination that I can imagine. 

[eejm]

6 hours ago, qtpye said:

I really need to know if Darlene knew about the abuse? It honestly seems like she had no idea or she repressed any clues.

Good Lord, Elliot had a horrible childhood. His mother physically brutalized him and his father's love was twisted with awful sexual abuse.

Darlene and Elliot had a sadist and a pedophile for parents. That is almost the worst combination that I can imagine. 

I wondered the same thing about Darlene.  I think she knows about the abuse and assumes Elliot is aware of it as well.  She’s always seemed baffled and put off at the fact that Elliot remembered their dad with affection.  She is also the one who reminded Elliot that he jumped out the window instead of being pushed, which also makes me believe she knows.  
 

I also wonder if perhaps Mr. Alderson was abusing Darlene as well.  When Elliot was recounting the room incident it seems as though Darlene knew it was in her best interests to stay in the closet, that both kids were aware of what to expect if they encountered their dad.  And let’s face it - even though Darlene seems somewhat better off than Elliot, she’s hardly the picture of mental health either.  Sexual abuse could certainly be at the root of her self-destructive behaviors.  I’m really curious to see Darlene again next week and hopefully find out what she knows.

Edited November 20, 2019 by eejm

[benteen]

Darlene mentioned being 4 when her father died but in another episode (she remembers the E Corp lawyer laughing during the court case), she talks about being lost at 5 and being taken by a woman and brought home...I think.  So Darlene has been a bit of an unreliable narrator herself.  I seem to recall her being surprised that Elliot had the Mr. Robot jacket.

[TVbitch]

oy vey

[shapeshifter]

14 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Darlene met Vera. We saw her meeting him at the end of Season 3 when he returned. And we had the conversation this season, which led to the reveal of a possible second alter, that she told Elliot about this guy Vera who came looking for him. Elliot of course didn't remember ever having that conversation with Darlene. I would think Darlene would know if she was talking to Elliot, despite the presence of an alter. 

I can't recall the look, sound, etc. of that scene, but I can imagine Darlene knowing the difference between Elliot's Vera alter and his other selves. I'm not saying that's necessarily what's intended, just that I'm not ruling it out quite yet.
  

14 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

Two, I cannot imagine that in between trying to stop Whiterose's super powerful Dark Army, Elliot found time to find two goons to work for him and go after Krista

I can also imagine that they were non-existant in real life, especially the way they left the scene.
  

14 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

As for all those things Vera said or did, as I noted above, honestly, I just assumed most were like me and figured most of Vera's blabbering was him being full of shit. Dude was a fucking mental case. A violent, drug taking mental case.

--and, arguably, a "violent, drug taking mental case" could be the Elliot that Christa was afraid of. Just sayin'. 

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by shapeshifter

[truthaboutluv]

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I can't recall the look, sound, etc. of that scene, but I can imagine Darlene knowing the difference between Elliot's Vera alter and his other selves. I'm not saying that's necessarily what's intended, just that I'm not ruling it out quite yet.

The point is that no matter whether Elliot is present or an alter, physically what another person sees is Elliot. Which means, even if we believe crazy drug taking Vera was really an alter and present talking to Darlene, to Darlene, she would still be seeing Elliot in front of her.

Which means she would not be telling Elliot that some guy named Vera came looking for him. Unless we say that conversation didn't happen and so Elliot never had the conversation that made him realize there may be a second alter and so maybe there is no second alter. You see how this can go around and around and around. 

Vera not being real means either Shayla was never being abused by her dealer, which then prompted Elliot to use his hacking skills to get said dealer arrested, which then led to said dealer knowing it was him, having Shayla kidnapped (and eventually murdered) and forcing Elliot to break him out of prison. So the theory would suggest all of this never happened. 

Now if we're saying Shayla was indeed murdered because Vera is some murderous alter of Elliot's, then Elliot simply murdered Shayla and then created a narrative of his alter Vera in jail that he Eliot helped break out. YMMV but that seems very convoluted. 

I don't think that just because Elliot suffers from DID, it suddenly means that every interaction he has is all in his head. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[TVbitch]

I just recalled the flashback to the movie theater just before Mr. Alderson collapsed and died. He asked Elliot if he was ever going to forgive him, and Elliot said no. That's a weird exchange for a sexual abuser to have with his victim in a movie lobby. I can't remember if Elliot's arm was broken in the scene. 

[DapperPines]

I'm going to be honest the second Krista hinted that Elliot was scared of Edward i knew he molested Elliot. However when Elliot said yes I still had to cry as I hate it when my boy Elliot get's hurt. Like when Angela was killed I was happy since she betrayed my boy Elliot. Anyway after after a thorough, intensive self-reprogramming I've made it so Mr. Alderson just had a bad temper and beat Elliot on the occasion . But I feel like Sammy (Sam Esmail) has had this on the back-burner since season 1. When Shayla is kidnapped and Angela visited his apartment Mr. Robot visited him and said his problem was staring him in the face. And since Mr. Robot looks like his dad and this is what broke Elliot to a certain extent. This in't something Sammy pulled out of his ass. Also does anyone hate the 10PM on Sunday time slot mr. Robot has?

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, DapperPines said:

This in't something Sammy pulled out of his ass.

I've read comments in other places from many people who say based on their knowledge of DID and a lot of little things from the beginning, they did sort of suspect that was going to be the case.

One person pointed out the fact that in the pilot episode, the first thing we see of Elliot, is his going after a pedophile. He brought down the prison guard no matter how dangerous, once he realized what he was doing online, which was child porn, among other things. 

Elliot decided to set Vera up to be arrested when he saw Vera abuse Shayla. He screwed over Krista's ex when he realized how awful the guy was to his dog. In other words, abuse of any kind has always been a major trigger for Elliot.

I'll be honest that I didn't think they'd go with his dad sexually abusing him (mainly because I didn't want to watch that) but I always thought if nothing else, there'd been some type of physical abuse in Elliot's past. 

[possibilities]

9 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

The point is that no matter whether Elliot is present or an alter, physically what another person sees is Elliot. Which means, even if we believe crazy drug taking Vera was really an alter and present talking to Darlene, to Darlene, she would still be seeing Elliot in front of her.

That is not necessarily true. The multiples I've known have sometimes appeared very different when they "switched" personalities-- different body language, sound of voice, different affect. They look the same in broad outlines of course. But sometimes it is not at all hard to tell. Other times it is-- I've also known multiples who I couldn't tell apart. But it is not at all unusual for multiples to have very distinct behaviors and other mannerisms, such that it's very obvious or at least discernible when they switch.

It would seem to me that Darlene would have honed her perceptions due to her closeness and long term relationship with Elliot. We've seen that other people aren't as tuned in to the distinction. But once you know what to look for, it's especially easy to tell the difference.

9 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

I don't think that just because Elliot suffers from DID, it suddenly means that every interaction he has is all in his head. 

I agree with you about this, however.

I think viewers have PTSD from being gotcha'd by the show's original Robot revelation, and now don't know what to believe anymore. It's either an effective genius writing coup, to simulate the confusion that a dissociated person might experience, or it's a terrible writing failure, because now a lot of people are unable to follow the narrative when it's NOT meant to be confusion, and feel like they don't know what the hell is really going on.

Edited November 20, 2019 by possibilities

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

That is not necessarily true. The multiples I've known have sometimes appeared very different when they "switched" personalities-- different body language, sound of voice, different affect.

When I said Darlene would still be seeing Elliot in front of her, I meant, as in his physical face. So even though his body language, voice and affect would be different, the facial recognition would still be that of Elliot's.

The show even touched on this in this episode, when Mr. Robot first showed up to Vera. And Vera says, "holy shit, it's like I'm talking to a whole other person", which meant that yes, Elliot's body language and affect and maybe his voice too, changes when he's Mr. Robot. But you knew Vera was still looking at Elliot's face.

So my point was that I cannot buy that Darlene of all people, would be so completely confused by an alter despite looking at her brother's face, that she'd then tell him how some guy named Vera was looking for him. 

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

I think viewers have PTSD from being gotcha'd by the show's original Robot revelation, and now don't know what to believe anymore.

But that gotcha happened since Season 1. And as I recall, a lot of viewers quickly figured out Mr. Robot was in Elliot's head. Hell I did by like Episode 3 or 4. So the reveal was not that shocking to many.

I don't think this has to do with the Mr. Robot reveal and instead the surprise reveal of a second alter this season. And so now there's this determination to figure out who the second alter is. 

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

because now a lot of people are unable to follow the narrative when it's NOT meant to be confusion, and feel like they don't know what the hell is really going on.

YMMV but for me and this is something I've felt since the first season of the show, the confusion comes not from the narrative being difficult to follow but some over thinking the show. I think this has been one of the major issues within the fandom of this show. 

As I've always said, honestly to me, this show has never been confusing. A little slow at times, Esmail does love his dramatic cinematography and yes there are metaphors throughout but ultimately, I've always felt that the show is just a psychological drama about hackers. And I guess you can also add the obvious social commentary on our world today. 

[shapeshifter]

48 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

So my point was that I cannot buy that Darlene of all people, would be so completely confused by an alter despite looking at her brother's face, that she'd then tell him how some guy named Vera was looking for him. 

Assuming Darlene is aware of Elliot’s alternate personalities, I suppose she could tell him that one altar had told her he was looking for another.
But I like my complex shows to have lots of layers —just like I expect simple procedurals to stick to the formula and not get complicated. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by shapeshifter
Word choice

[possibilities]

I'm not confused, but a lot of people seem to be. That's all I was saying.

[truthaboutluv]

2 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I'm not confused, but a lot of people seem to be. That's all I was saying.

I know you weren't referring to yourself. I was simply responding to the comment in regard to the writing and the initial gotcha of Mr. Robot not being real. My point is I don't think much of the confusion has been because of this and the fault of the writing. And more that some overthink the show to the point of confusing themselves. 

[tennisgurl]

That was so intense, I feel like I need to take a walk or something. You know, as much as this is a huge thing to drop on us so close to the ending of the show, its something I've always kind of suspected. Ever since we found out that Elliot jumped out of the window and that he started losing time as a child, I thought that he was abused in some way and was blocking it out, and considering how obsessed he is with his fathers memory, I wondered if it was something to do with his father. So while the episode itself was a bit ridiculous in the way that it often is, with the play structure Act 1 stuff, but I was riveted throughout, and it confirmed something I suspected (and feared) for awhile now. It also plays more into Elliot's constant fight against abusers and the big corporations he sees as abusing their power over less powerful people. I do wish that we could have had this reveal earlier in the series instead of now though. This is such a huge deal, and deserves so much fallout and exploration, I just dont know if we have the time to really give such a sensitive topic the care that it needs, with all of the plot stuff that needs to happen before the show wraps up. If this is just brought up now and then ignored, I will be really upset and disappointed. 

Mr. Robot is the good (if scary) dad Elliot wishes he had that protects him from his actual father, the monstrous abuser, so I dont think it hurts the image of Mr. Robot we have had since day one, they've made it pretty clear that he isnt exactly a representation of Elliot's father, more of a mixture of a number of things.

I was so drained by the end, I couldn't even appreciate Vera finally getting his just desserts! 

Edited November 22, 2019 by tennisgurl

[possibilities]

Yeah, that "Act 1," "Act 2" (etc) business was really unnecessary.

[Cardie]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

Yeah, that "Act 1," "Act 2" (etc) business was really unnecessary.

It’s kind of a wink to the fact that those act breaks are where the commercials would have been. 

[truthaboutluv]

2 hours ago, Cardie said:

It’s kind of a wink to the fact that those act breaks are where the commercials would have been. 

Maybe but I also saw it as all part of Esmail essentially doing a stage play within a television show format - the two rooms structure for example, Vera’s many long-winded soliloquies and of course the various acts.

YMMV but I thought the format and staging of the episode added to its brilliance. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[Cthulhudrew]

Loved the Hitchcockian feel to this (the staging reminded me of Rope, and of course the lighting, effects, and music). I was certain it would turn out that Elliot was the alter, so didn't see the child abuse reveal coming, but in retrospect it shouldn't have surprised me (as others have pointed out, DID is frequently associated with child abuse). 

Amazing episode. Well done all around.

[shapeshifter]

On 11/20/2019 at 7:12 PM, truthaboutluv said:

My point is I don't think much of the confusion has been because of this and the fault of the writing. And more that some overthink the show to the point of confusing themselves. 

Confusion would also be from casual drunk or distracted watching coupled with the long gaps in scheduling. 
.
-—

.

On 11/22/2019 at 2:53 AM, Cardie said:

On 11/22/2019 at 12:45 AM, possibilities said:

Yeah, that "Act 1," "Act 2" (etc) business was really unnecessary.

It’s kind of a wink to the fact that those act breaks are where the commercials would have been

On 11/22/2019 at 5:18 AM, truthaboutluv said:

Maybe but I also saw it as all part of Esmail essentially doing a stage play within a television show format - the two rooms structure for example, Vera’s many long-winded soliloquies and of course the various acts.

YMMV but I thought the format and staging of the episode added to its brilliance. 

4 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Loved the Hitchcockian feel to this (the staging reminded me of Rope, and of course the lighting, effects, and music). I was certain it would turn out that Elliot was the alter, so didn't see the child abuse reveal coming, but in retrospect it shouldn't have surprised me (as others have pointed out, DID is frequently associated with child abuse). 

Amazing episode. Well done all around.

Although not likely intended, I enjoyed the Act I etc. as a chance to catch my breath and seemingly as if Esmail acknowledged that this was a lot to sit through. 
Plus, I kept thinking it was a signal that a Chekhovian gun was about to go off —which only just now reading these^ posts I realize (whether or not intended) that this season is the 4th act so-to-speak in which the gun of the reveal of Mr Robot went off. Bravo. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm going to actually give some credit here - Mr Robot v Vera was reasonably interesting. I did like how Vera was kind of freaked out and then Mr Robot basically just laid into him.

Ooooh, they said mother fucker again.

On 11/20/2019 at 3:53 PM, possibilities said:

I think viewers have PTSD from being gotcha'd by the show's original Robot revelation, and now don't know what to believe anymore.

Who didn't know that Mr. Robot wasn't real though? The show wasn't really being coy about that.  Even Elliot v/o-ed "I suppose you knew that." The real reveal was Darlene being his sister because he said, 'you didn't see that'. I think the 'ptsd' aspect comes from the show being so oblique with characters talking past one another most of the time, or with Rose blathering on about the 'project' to the point where you wonder if TPTBs have much more than a few plot beats they need to hit, but 13 hours of show is way way way way more than needed so it's filled with Dom plodding around or no one talking or whatever this episode was.

I actually don't mind a 'tv-play' episode, but being the last season, I feel like not much has happened since episode 2.

I think everyone here is smart enough to know that Eliot clearly experienced childhood trauma, leading to Mr. Robot, so I'm not sure explaining exactly what happened was really necessary, which, as I said above.

[truthaboutluv]

The episode was nominated for a WGA (Writer's Guild).

https://awards.wga.org/awards/nominees-winners

I'm happy for Sam. I know some have had mixed feelings about this season but IMO, if nothing else, this episode was absolute masterful television.

I'm also hoping that this nomination means the show hasn't been forgotten by the critics and various Guilds, because of the long break. Because Rami especially has sure as hell earned at least a damn nomination for his work this season. 

Edited December 7, 2019 by truthaboutluv

[NevanFury]

this is the best episode in season 4, AMAZING ACTING by Vera and everyone else. Damn, fucking damn. superb actors. Im fucking crying now