S39.E08: We Made it to the Merge!

[Nashville]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

Is the prize $100,000 or gift card for Applebee's?

...and would second place be TWO gift cards for Applebee’s?

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

...and would second place be TWO gift cards for Applebee’s?

LOL!  Was that a Breaking Bad reference?  Gomie made the same joke about Hank offering a  6 pack of Shraederbrau as a prize.  

Edited November 19, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, fishcakes said:

You said, "the same day he was touching her," but he's been touching her all along, both before and after she asked him to stop. We've seen him touching her in more than one episode, during events that peg it as happening after she talked to him (as for example when he bear-hugged her and kissed her head after she returned from Idol Island). As for the specific incident of him trying to put his hands in her hair, while I know that they sometimes edit for effect and that it didn't necessarily take place within the three day period that this episode was depicting, I am fairly certain it happened after she had the conversation with him back on day 2 or 3 because when she told him not to touch her hair, his response was, "my hands are clean, I washed them." He was specifically negating the germophobe excuse she gave him. That's what guys like him do. It wouldn't matter what excuse she gave him to soften the conversation, he would find a way to try to make her feel like the unreasonable one. "Oh, you're a germophobe? It's okay if I touch you, I washed my hands." "Your skin is more sensitive than average? It's okay, I'm not touching you hard." "You have leprosy? I don't mind. I had leprosy when I was a teenager." Dans do what they want.

I agree.  Like you and other posters have pointed it out, it's about power, dominance, control.

The main statement Kellee wanted to convey to Dan very early on was "Don't touch me".  She sugarcoated it in other stuff to make her daily life bearable, and to try to get farther in the game, like "I'm a germaphobe" or "I don't like to be touched" (making it about her.)  Dan would have continued to touch her every day he could or felt like it for 33 days and would give her excuses of why he was doing it the entire time.  Kellee wants one thing from Dan - Don't touch me.  Dan wouldn't do that for her.  It is exhausting and demoralizing to be forced to spend time around someone who won't respect your boundaries.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Gummo]

Talked to the missus this morning and we agreed to just completely drop the rest of this season. We haven't done that since sadist Russell Hantz was featured.

Sexual abuse is not "fun" and it's not a "gaming strategy," not for the abuser and not for those who support the abuser., Gaslighting those who suffer sexual abuse and those who do try to support them is not fun, either (talking to you, Elizabeth and MIssy). It's unutterably selfish and disgusting.

Burnette & Probst are twisted individuals and unfortunately their values -- or lack thereof -- have completely infected the game. 

Spoiler

We will be back for all-stars next season just 'cause there will be so many of our favorites on, but

Survivor is having more & more shark-jumping moments as the seasons go on, and it may be time to put this game to bed once and for all.

[himela]

I find it weird and suspicious that there haven't been any interviews out yet.

I see one now: https://parade.com/954820/mikebloom/survivor-kellee-kim-eliminated/

Lol it says nothing about Dan! And it's through e-mails! Ridiculous!

Edited November 19, 2019 by himela

[ProfCrash]

30 minutes ago, himela said:

I find it weird and suspicious that there haven't been any interviews out yet.

I see one now: https://parade.com/954820/mikebloom/survivor-kellee-kim-eliminated/

Lol it says nothing about Dan! And it's through e-mails! Ridiculous!

That was awful

[Rachel RSL]

There's a good interview with Kellee here.  A lot more info.  For example, in regards to whether Production should have pulled Dan:

Quote

I did not know about Dan getting a personal warning until I watched the episode. If production was going to give Dan an official warning, they should have just pulled him from the game

And in regards to Missy & Elizabeth:

Quote

I draw the ethical line at using something like this as a tool. The reason is: I needed to be believed, and production needed to step in.

[Ms Blue Jay]

That's so sad.  Personally, Kellee is my fan favourite.  I probably liked some people at the beginning too but the drama of this shit has made me forget them.  

4 hours ago, laurakaye said:

On Instagram, you just "heart" the player you want to win.  I "hearted" Janet. 💜

Not sure I understand.

1)  Do you mean like a post on the Survivor Instagram page?

2)  Or do you mean following the Survivor contestant's Instagram account?

You can't just heart a player……  can you specify where?

Reading the Kellee interview linked in the post above mine:

Thinking about Missy and Elizabeth's incredibly awkward and disingenuous-seeming apologies, it makes me think of high school behaviour.  When someone is outcasted, it doesn't matter what happens to that person, they tend not to be believed.  Kellee says that her allies were a bunch of women:  Noura, Janet, Karishma, and Lauren.  Obviously not Missy, Elizabeth, and Elaine, who were on the "other side".  They seemed almost hostile towards Kellee in this latest episode.  Like clique-ish.  I've seen this kind of behaviour where if someone isn't part of the "group" or accepted, it makes matters worse for them when they need to be believed or helped in some way.

I'm still really happy with Aaron's reaction to all of this.  It makes me hopeful and feel better about things in general.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Hanahope]

Its a shame that Kelley thought Lauren was her ally and she totally betrayed Kelley and let her to believe she was safe.

[ProfCrash]

31 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Its a shame that Kelley thought Lauren was her ally and she totally betrayed Kelley and let her to believe she was safe.

That is a part of the game. 

The EW interview was much, much better.

[LanceM]

I am not sure if we can read anything into this but of the 5 apologies that were posted on social media last week (Aaron, Liz, Missy, Lauren and Tommy) the only two Kellee responded to and accepted were those by Aaron and Elizabeth, 

https://twitter.com/kellee_kim/status/1195097345970470912

https://twitter.com/kellee_kim/status/1195464399605002240

Now it could me she just doesn't need from the others, especially Tommy. But who knows.

[watchingtvaddict]

Quote

Have you and Dan had a chance outside the game to discuss all of this, and how are you two now?
My relationship with Dan is between me and Dan. Having a good or bad relationship with someone after something like this seems to warp public perception of what happened. My relationship with Dan has no bearing on the facts, which the public saw air.

I'm interested to see how the rest of the season plays out. I think Kellee was protected from the vote fallout a little more than Janet and might have a more positive outlook on what happened because she no longer had to be in "game mode". 

This all happened 7 months ago and I'm sure the cast didn't realise the fall out was going to be this big. 

ETA: Janet has asked that people be kind to the others as they can still learn from their mistakes. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by watchingtvaddict
pressed submit too early

[Hanahope]

Certainly hope Kelley, Jamal and Janet get a chance to play again.

[himela]

So she doesn't want to reply to how her relationship with Dan is now. It seems that they want to make us forget about this fast and I bet that in the reunion everyone will be happy and they will say they have forgiven one another and everything is good. We will never find out the real story because CBS wants to cover the truth. They want to just get over with it. We watch a show, we talk about it, we make theories, but when the time comes to learn the true story, we don't.this is pure disrespect to the viewers and it makes me really angry.

[violet and green]

On 11/19/2019 at 2:48 AM, nutty1 said:

re: Jamal's trip to IOI. That was bullshit!! He was supposed to just ignore a note hanging in front of his face???

Well, strictly speaking, it was Karishma who noticed the note hanging there and pointed it out to him, and Jamal just swooped in like a seagull and claimed it. Choices!

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, himela said:

So she doesn't want to reply to how her relationship with Dan is now. It seems that they want to make us forget about this fast and I bet that in the reunion everyone will be happy and they will say they have forgiven one another and everything is good. We will never find out the real story because CBS wants to cover the truth. They want to just get over with it. We watch a show, we talk about it, we make theories, but when the time comes to learn the true story, we don't.this is pure disrespect to the viewers and it makes me really angry.

Kellee doesn't want to comment on her relationship with Dan now because if she says something like "It's friendly" then harassment apologists will say "Oh, she probably liked when Dan touched her" or "Oh, she was lying initially" and if she says something like "It's not friendly" then the harassments apologists will say "Wow, she's bitter" or "I can't believe she hasn't gotten over it."

She's smart enough to know that.  Once again, Kellee is not a producer and owes nobody an update on Dan if she doesn't want to provide it.  A current update on that would not even be relevant to the show.

We know the real story.  It's on camera.  That's what she said in the interview.  She never complained about it being edited incorrectly.  She complained that producers didn't intervene.  No reason to doubt what our eyes saw.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[himela]

2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Kellee doesn't want to comment on her relationship with Dan now because if she says something like "It's friendly" then harassment apologists will say "Oh, she probably liked when Dan touched her" or "Oh, she was lying initially" and if she says something like "It's not friendly" then the harassments apologists will say "Wow, she's bitter" or "I can't believe she hasn't gotten over it."

She's smart enough to know that.  Once again, Kellee is not a producer and owes nobody an update on Dan if she doesn't want to provide it.  A current update on that would not even be relevant to the show.

We know the real story.  It's on camera.  That's what she said in the interview.  She never complained about it being edited incorrectly.  She complained that producers didn't intervene.  No reason to doubt what our eyes saw.

I strongly disagree. The moment Kellee agreed to go to Survivor, she agreed that aspects of her life in the game and her personality will become open to the audience. She is a public figure. It is important to me to find out not only what we saw (the harassment) but also what exactly happened with Elisabeth and Missy, whether she accepted Dan's apology, what the relationship between the players is after the game etc. We have a right to know as an audience that watches for 39 seasons. If they try to hide the truth, this will be a huge mistake by production. You can't present things how you want them during the episode in order to make money from advertisement and when people want answer close the players' mouth so they don't tell the truth. And what was this thing with interviews happening on Tuesday? What was the reason? I feel disrespected as a fan and disappointed. Over the years Probst & Co want to show us that they are very good with crisis events and how good they handle everything. Well now they want to hide the truth. The truth is not only what we saw on camera. I want to know the real feelings of all players involved and what the producers told them. And it's sad that this will never happen. They will just yada yada the event and proceed to invite us to watch season 40. No. Not fair.

Do they want to share the story or don't they?

[RescueMom]

4 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Kellee doesn't want to comment on her relationship with Dan now because if she says something like "It's friendly" then harassment apologists will say "Oh, she probably liked when Dan touched her" or "Oh, she was lying initially" and if she says something like "It's not friendly" then the harassments apologists will say "Wow, she's bitter" or "I can't believe she hasn't gotten over it."

I, on the other hand, strongly agree. Kellee made it clear in her interview with Dalton that she had no say in how this was handled by production, how it was shown in the episode, etc.  She has repeatedly had her power taken away from the very first time Dan disregarded her saying no. She absolutely has the right to decide how much of this deeply unsettling experience she wants to talk about. She signed up to play a game, not to be harassed. She was happy to talk about the game. She respectfully set boundaries when talking about the rest. I have zero problem with that.

[ProfCrash]

I like that she is talking about what happened a bit differently in different interviews. In the Gordon Holmes interview she clearly states that none of this would be happening if Dan had simply kept his hands to himself when she asked him to. She has been pretty clear on the fact that the Producers have not kept her in the loop on anything.

Jeff Probst discussed that there had been a conversation about letting Kellee speak during that second tribal council and that the Production team decided not to let her speak. Kellee mentioned in one of her interviews that no one had talked to her about that possibility.

Production showed Zeke the episode with Varner's outing in advance. Production did not show this episode to Kellee in advance.

It is unclear if Kellee asked to have some extra time and take interviews by email or if Production made that choice or if it was a joint decision. I will say that Kellee seemed to appreciate the delay and the email in her answer to Gordon Holmes.

But I don't think she has to tell us how things are with Dan at this moment. This is a personal thing for her even if it is playing out in public. And we don't know that it is done yet. Dan is still in the game. So are Elizabeth and Missy. We don't know how this is going to play out over the course of the season. So it might not be done. Just like the Shirin mess wasn't done after that one Tribal Council or when she was voted out. Just like it wasn't done for Zeke after Varner. Or Sue after Richard. Or the women in who Thailand who I don't remember because that season was gross enough that I stopped watching.

I suspect we will hear from her about her relationship with Dan at the Reunion. And remember, there is speculation that Dan might sue someone so it would be better for Kellee to not comment on her relationship with Dan until some of this dies down.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Yeah, I'm not sure why Survivor fans would care about the relationships between castmates outside of or after the show.  It doesn't affect the machinations on screen and who wins the million dollars.  We know Kellee didn't win the million.  I don't care if she hates all these people or loves them.  It's not my business.

All I care about is after this moment are the Survivor producers going to put in a clause regarding unwanted touching and are they going to act more assertively from now on to remove such offenders.

4 hours ago, himela said:

I strongly disagree. The moment Kellee agreed to go to Survivor, she agreed that aspects of her life in the game and her personality will become open to the audience.

She's not in the game anymore.

Straight up, Kellee is a victim of sexual harassment, and to make matters worse for her, this was all aired publicly.  Nobody should expect anything from those victims.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[CountryGirl]

7 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Kellee doesn't want to comment on her relationship with Dan now because if she says something like "It's friendly" then harassment apologists will say "Oh, she probably liked when Dan touched her" or "Oh, she was lying initially" and if she says something like "It's not friendly" then the harassments apologists will say "Wow, she's bitter" or "I can't believe she hasn't gotten over it."

She's smart enough to know that.  Once again, Kellee is not a producer and owes nobody an update on Dan if she doesn't want to provide it.  A current update on that would not even be relevant to the show.

We know the real story.  It's on camera.  That's what she said in the interview.  She never complained about it being edited incorrectly.  She complained that producers didn't intervene.  No reason to doubt what our eyes saw.

2 hours ago, RescueMom said:

I, on the other hand, strongly agree. Kellee made it clear in her interview with Dalton that she had no say in how this was handled by production, how it was shown in the episode, etc.  She has repeatedly had her power taken away from the very first time Dan disregarded her saying no. She absolutely has the right to decide how much of this deeply unsettling experience she wants to talk about. She signed up to play a game, not to be harassed. She was happy to talk about the game. She respectfully set boundaries when talking about the rest. I have zero problem with that.

100% agree with all of this, especially the bolded.

Kellee owes no one ANYTHING. PERIOD.

Least of all the viewers, even those who have watched every single season (and yep, I'm a member of that particular bunch). 

She wasn't allowed to set boundaries against unwanted touching, even after telling the perpetrator "no!," so my goodness, she deserves at least that much now.

[himela]

If Kellee doesn't agree with her story of harassment having been shown on TV, then she should sue the producers and speak up, break her contract, remove herself from the game altogether and treat this as a harassment case officially. The way she is acting, and IF she talks about it in the reunion, I will just take the message that the producers have requested that she doesn't address this issue NOW that the cameras are off and she only does it during the reunion, when they want numbers. If she really does that, it will tell me that the harassment issue we are all talking about was not that serious for her since she won't be treating it with the respect we all want to treat it with. You can't treat it as "omg harassment" now and when the reunion is on to say "oh well, everything is solved now, Dan has apologized, we are all cool and bye bye". You know what I'm saying?

If Kellee acts like that in the reunion, I will believe that they promised her to play again in Survivor if she doesn't create more of a deal than it already is.

[ProfCrash]

Where do you get the impression that Kellee doesn't want the story aired? There is a difference in wanting the story aired and discussing it, which she has, and discussing a specific relationship with a specific person. She choose not to discuss her specific relationship with Dan.

She has conducted a series of interviews where she has discussed the entire incident. She has highlighted that the Producers have not consulted her on any part of her story line, which I is very different then Zeke's experience, but she has not said she did not want it aired.

She has answered a good number of questions about what she thinks about what Dan did and what Missy and Elisabeth did.

So you are upset simply because she won't tell you what her relationship with Dan is?

[CountryGirl]

11 minutes ago, himela said:

 If she really does that, it will tell me that the harassment issue we are all talking about was not that serious for her since she won't be treating it with the respect we all want to treat it

So if a victim of harassment doesn't behave the way we (the collective we) think she (or he) should in the aftermath, then it's apparently NOT THAT SERIOUS???

I have no words.

[himela]

Ok lets wait for the reunion and see.

[himela]

Anyway I'm a "black and white" type of person, I also was a recipient of sexual harassment (I don't consider myself a victim), I wasn't sure I wanted to share this but here it goes: I was only 19 years old, I was applying for a job, I went to the store for an interview, it was only me and the manager, he took me to the first floor and he had me sit on the computer to show me how the program of his company works. He was behind - next to me and he started touching my leg, I was stunned at first but then I yelled at him to leave me alone, he had the nerve to say "I thought you wanted it", I got up and left. When I got home I found his house telephone number and I had my mom call his wife and inform her (she didn't believe it but oh well, I took my revenge). So the way I see things all women should speak up and this is exactly what I wanted Kellee to do: Tell the producers she wanted Dan gone OR if she didn't want to do that, after she was voted out and lost the chance to win, then she should have sent the producers to hell, break the contract and sue them and Dan for harassment. But she didn't do any of that, she didn't even want to break the rules and reply when Dan was "apologizing", now she still wants to make the matter be forgotten and I guess the matter WILL be forgotten by casual viewers, not for us fans who will remember it of course. I just wanted Kellee to take more action than she did. I do understand though than not all women have the strength to do what I did or what I would have done.

[Nashville]

Another issue to consider: maybe Kellee is slow-pitching some of her replies for fear excessive criticism will make her persona non grata in terms of any future Survivor/CBS involvement.  

If this is the case then I am personally and genuinely saddened for Kellee, because that means there is no endpoint in view to this situation for her; she is stuck in limbo within the de facto coercive climate of corporate CBS, with no chance of an exit any time soon - and truthfully, corporate CBS has every self-preservation reason NOT to provide Kellee with one.  Sounds like hell to me.  :[ 

[ProfCrash]

9 minutes ago, himela said:

Anyway I'm a "black and white" type of person, I also was a recipient of sexual harassment (I don't consider myself a victim), I wasn't sure I wanted to share this but here it goes: I was only 19 years old, I was applying for a job, I went to the store for an interview, it was only me and the manager, he took me to the first floor and he had me sit on the computer to show me how the program of his company works. He was behind - next to me and he started touching my leg, I was stunned at first but then I yelled at him to leave me alone, he had the nerve to say "I thought you wanted it", I got up and left. When I got home I found his house telephone number and I had my mom call his wife and inform her (she didn't believe it but oh well, I took my revenge). So the way I see things all women should speak up and this is exactly what I wanted Kellee to do: Tell the producers she wanted Dan gone OR if she didn't want to do that, after she was voted out and lost the chance to win, then she should have sent the producers to hell, break the contract and sue them and Dan for harassment. But she didn't do any of that, she didn't even want to break the rules and reply when Dan was "apologizing", now she still wants to make the matter be forgotten and I guess the matter WILL be forgotten by casual viewers, not for us fans who will remember it of course. I just wanted Kellee to take more action than she did. I do understand though than not all women have the strength to do what I did or what I would have done.

Thank you for sharing your story. I am glad that you walked out.

Kellee voiced her discomfort to Dan on multiple occasions. She talked to Production and made it clear that his touching her made her uncomfortable.

She was fine playing with him as long as he stopped touching her. She was also aware that there would be backlash in the game for making a bigger issue out of it. In the end, she choose to vote for him to be removed from the game once she felt like like it was an issue bigger then herself. Elisabeth and Missy undermined that plan.

In some ways what she did is similar to what you did. Yes, your Mom called the managers wife and told her what happened but did either of you call the Managers boss and report what happened? That manager probably kept his job and Dan stayed in the game.

Kellee has not undermined what she went through, she has discussed it in interviews. She voted to remove Dan from the game. She thought that the Tribe would handle it because she thought that the other women were feeling the same way. She has flat out said that this is happening because Dan could not respect personal boundaries.

I am not sure what you are looking for from her. I appreciate that your perspective is different then mine but I don't think that Kellee has some how tried to down play what happened.

[himela]

@ProfCrash

Thank you for being so respectful. Maybe what you say is right. 🙂

[Rachel RSL]

11 hours ago, himela said:

We watch a show, we talk about it, we make theories, but when the time comes to learn the true story, we don't.

But we do know the whole story.  There is video proof, multiple witnesses and most of the people involved have acknowledged that it was a serious matter.    Saying things like "There must be more to it" or "We didn't see everything" is basically the same as saying "I don't believe her."  

1 hour ago, himela said:

If she really does that, it will tell me that the harassment issue we are all talking about was not that serious for her since she won't be treating it with the respect we all want to treat it with.

This is so disheartening. If a victim doesn't respond the exact way we want her to, that means it wasn't serious? Yikes.

[Bryce Lynch]

12 hours ago, violet and green said:

Well, strictly speaking, it was Karishma who noticed the note hanging there and pointed it out to him, and Jamal just swooped in like a seagull and claimed it. Choices!

That was the only thing that made Jamal getting hosed not totally unfair.  But, it was still BS and I am not a Jamal fan.  

[Hanahope]

35 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

That was the only thing that made Jamal getting hosed not totally unfair.  But, it was still BS and I am not a Jamal fan.  

but presuming Karishma did exactly what Jamal did, take the note, read partly, go to the island, because that is completely reasonable, then she would have been hosed and that would have been totally unfair.  I don't think its any different because Jamal grabbed the note first.

[CountryGirl]

1 hour ago, himela said:

So the way I see things all women should speak up.  I just wanted Kellee to take more action than she did. I do understand though than not all women have the strength to do what I did or what I would have done.

First, I am very sorry for your experience as that is awful and I'm glad you felt you were in a position that you could and did speak up about it.

Where I differ is that it is not always so simple, so "black and white," to say "all women should speak up." And even setting that broadswee generalization aside for a moment, Kellee DID speak up, several times, to Dan, and to others, including the producers as the cameras were rolling the entire time. If that isn't taking action, what is?

And I absolutely cannot with your "not all women have the strength" comment because no.

You do not understand.

AT ALL.

There are many women and men who are harassed and, for any number of reasons that they do not and should never have to defend, remain silent.  Women and men who are abused and keep silent. And instead of feeling compassion, they're feeling judged for how they did or didn't act, what they said or didn't say. 

But to say they lack strength? 

I cannot fathom how anyone could look at what the survivors of harassment and abuse have been through and say, with a straight face, that they are anything but the epitome of strength.

Ask me how I know.

[Ms Blue Jay]

2 hours ago, himela said:

 So the way I see things all women should speak up and this is exactly what I wanted Kellee to do:

Way too much onus is put on victims/survivors.  It's way too demanding in my opinion.  FYI, some women (men, children) are fired, blackballed, hurt, or killed for speaking up against harassment and abuse.

There's so much out there about what victims should and shouldn't do.  Too much is wasted on that.  Victims can do whatever they want.  The focus doesn't need to be on that.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[CountryGirl]

@Ms Blue Jay:

YES! I wish I could like your post a million times, but since I can't, this Meryl gif will have to do.

[Drogo]

19 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Kellee DID speak up, several times, to Dan, and to others, including the producers as the cameras were rolling the entire time. If that isn't taking action, what is?

Producer:  "Do you want us to intervene?"
Kellee:  "NO."  

Kellee took action.  She just didn't take the action most of us wish she had, because she had other plans in mind.    

[Bryce Lynch]

41 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

but presuming Karishma did exactly what Jamal did, take the note, read partly, go to the island, because that is completely reasonable, then she would have been hosed and that would have been totally unfair.  I don't think its any different because Jamal grabbed the note first.

What I mean is that the anti-reward twist was totally unfair, but the fact that Jamal got hit with it after sort of snatching the note that arguably belonged to Karishma, could be seen as poetic justice.  

[Rachel RSL]

Quote

Producer:  "Do you want us to intervene?"
Kellee:  "NO."  

Kellee took action.  She just didn't take the action most of us wish she had, because she had other plans in mind. 

That's the point.  The onus never should have been placed on Kellee for all the reasons previously mentioned.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Rachel RSL
I'M STUCK IN THE DAMN QUOTE BOX!

[Ms Blue Jay]

Personally I didn't want Kellee to take any action except play an idol.  I reiterate that getting rid of the Dan problem was not on her.

[Ellee]

5 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Way too much onus is put on victims.  It's way too demanding in my opinion.  FYI, some women are fired, hurt, or killed for speaking up against harassment and abused.

This is so true!

Additionally this situation was televised!  Most are not.  Others spoke up about how this had ramifications on Dan's life.   What I would like to know is what about the ramifications on Kellee's life?  She is a young, articulate, intelligent woman.  A bright future ahead.  Survivor is just a brief episode in her life. 

She's had to walk a very, very fine line on a tv show that she has absolutely no control over.   I don't know her but I can absolutely say that I'm proud of her.  Very proud of her.   She spoke when she needed to, she measured her words when she needed to and has carried herself with dignity.  

And, on a sidenote, everyone should have a Janet in their life.

[Drogo]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

What I mean is that the anti-reward twist was totally unfair, but the fact that Jamal got hit with it after sort of snatching the note that arguably belonged to Karishma, could be seen as poetic justice.  

I have to say that Karishma's description of what happened and what actually happened were pretty different.  She described it as if she were thisclose to getting the note and Jamal swooped in out of nowhere and grabbed it- but watching the footage they both went for it with all the zeal of a Sloth vs Turtle and sloth happened to win this time.  

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Drogo said:

I have to say that Karishma's description of what happened and what actually happened were pretty different.  She described it as if she were thisclose to getting the note and Jamal swooped in out of nowhere and grabbed it- but watching the footage they both went for it with all the zeal of a Sloth vs Turtle and sloth happened to win this time.  

I don't remember Karishma's description of what happened. But, my recollection is that she spotted it first.  I think it should have been hers or they should have discussed who it belonged to  or done rock, paper scissors, or something.  

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Personally I didn't want Kellee to take any action except play an idol.  I reiterate that getting rid of the Dan problem was not on her.

Dan was mainly a  problem to her, so it was partly on her to get rid of the problem.  It seemed like production was ready to step in and help her and they asked if she wanted help, but she said no.  I don't think production asking her to say, "Yes, I want Dan out." is too much to ask.   We can't expect others to swoop in and magically get wrongdoers out of our lives, if we are not willing to request that they do it.

Also, you could argue Kellee was making a pragmatic decision (that is how she viewed her original plan to stay allied with Dan and blindside Missy), to not have Dan ejected.   

Should men (or women) charge in like knights in shining armor to "help" a woman, when she thinks that "help" is against her own best interests?

I guess you could argue they should.  But, I tend to think we should empower women to make their own choices in these matters and respect those choices.  Kellee seemed to have a lot of options in this situation, which I think is a good thing.   

I am also not sure that sending the message to women, that if they make any sort of valid complaint, the only option is the man being terminated, regardless of whether the woman wants that, is a great idea.  It could have a chilling affect on women speaking up.  

[Kaiju Ballet]

31 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

First, I am very sorry for your experience as that is awful and I'm glad you felt you were in a position that you could and did speak up about it.

Where I differ is that it is not always so simple, so "black and white," to say "all women should speak up." And even setting that broadswee generalization aside for a moment, Kellee DID speak up, several times, to Dan, and to others, including the producers as the cameras were rolling the entire time. If that isn't taking action, what is?

And I absolutely cannot with your "not all women have the strength" comment because no.

You do not understand.

AT ALL.

There are many women and men who are harassed and, for any number of reasons that they do not and should never have to defend, remain silent.  Women and men who are abused and keep silent. And instead of feeling compassion, they're feeling judged for how they did or didn't act, what they said or didn't say. 

But to say they lack strength? 

I cannot fathom how anyone could look at what the survivors of harassment and abuse have been through and say, with a straight face, that they are anything but the epitome of strength.

Ask me how I know.

THIS x 1000. I am grateful that this discussion is taking place, because while it saddens me that while certain attitudes are still in place about how "recipients of sexual harassment" should behave, as if they owe the viewing public or society in general anything, there's been a very real possibility that something positive will come out of it.

Kellee has been handling this with every bit of grace and yes, strength, that has been healing for me personally. Janet gives me faith that there are decent human beings out there, who are still appreciated as such (given the public groundswell of support). And the fact that this is still being discussed a full week later gives me a sense of solidarity that I'm not the only one who had old wounds open up, but now am hopeful for a greater chance of healing with this changed climate.

1 minute ago, Ellee said:

This is so true!

Additionally this situation was televised!  Most are not.  Others spoke up about how this had ramifications on Dan's life.   What I would like to know is what about the ramifications on Kellee's life?  She is a young, articulate, intelligent woman.  A bright future ahead.  Survivor is just a brief episode in her life. 

She's had to walk a very, very fine line on a tv show that she has absolutely no control over.   I don't know her but I can absolutely say that I'm proud of her.  Very proud of her.   She spoke when she needed to, she measured her words when she needed to and has carried herself with dignity.  

And, on a sidenote, everyone should have a Janet in their life.

The other thing about being the target of harassment is the high risk of being defined as such from that moment on. I view what Kellee said to the producer (who definitely dropped the ball by making it her choice) as her choosing to be defined as a player and not as Dan's victim. I never saw it as her minimizing his actions, but that perception is what allows people like Dan to feel their actions are ok.

And now that there's that fact coming to light that Janet spoke with Dan specificially about his touching younger women being inappropriate --  within days of Kellee clearly telling him NO -- confirms it for me that the repeated comparisons to Harvey Weinstein are sadly apt.

[himela]

I guess it's wise for me to stop posting regarding this matter since I may be not well informed about it. Peace people 😉

[Ellee]

@himela

Don't stop posting.  The nice thing about these forums is that each poster sees things from their prospective and posts it.  We get to read what others are thinking.  It's a good thing.

[ProfCrash]

14 minutes ago, himela said:

I guess it's wise for me to stop posting regarding this matter since I may be not well informed about it. Peace people 😉

Post or don't post. People have different experiences and different reactions for a variety of reasons. The reason that we are struggling with this issue is that it is not black and white like many other societal ills. Some people are fine with touch, others are not. Some people are fine with salty language, some are not. It is hard to know how people will respond.

I think the conversation has been respectful and that it is good for people to voice their different perspectives. Hopefully we all learn something. But until we discuss the various responses and reactions we will continue to scream into the wind on a very important subjct.

If anything this episode shows exactly that. Lauren flat out said that she had dealt with Dan on her own and didn't think that Kellee's concerns were important enough to vote for Dan. Elisabeth knew she was lying about her comfort level in order to play the game. Missy said she was uncomfortable and gave many examples of Dan's touching her in a way that was not appropriate and agreed with Kelle.

Yet, neither Kellee or Missy felt that Dan was so bad that they did not think about keeping him in the game. Kelle was counting on Janet to control Dan, which is a clear indication that there was a large problem, and thought about voting out Missy. Missy was fine with voting out Dan until Lauren told her that Kellee was talking about voting out Missy.

Janet heard the complaints and thought there was a clear cut right thing to do.

Five different people with the same information, three of whom said that Dan made them uncomfortable (Including Lauren with her she talked to Dan and he stopped). And yet the vote was for Kellee.

Production should have stepped in when Kellee said that she was fine because Janet was their to control Dan. The fact that Kellee thought she needed a shield should have been the trigger to remove Dan. But it didn't happen.

The reality is that counseling someone, ie giving Dan a warning, is not very effective in the work place. Mainly because the people who complained are not going to tell the person that they complained about him, they are afraid of making a bad situation worse. And the accused is going to feel vindicated when the others demy saying anything.

Dan was told to stop and didn't. In the end, he created the problem. Kellee told him to stop and he didn't stop. Kellee was in a bad place. She could force him out of the game, and then be attacked by her allies for removing an ally that they had no issues with. If Production had stepped in and simply said "Dan, you violated the rules when you continued to touch people after they told you to stop. We have on film these conversations between these women, because we know Lauren and Kellee said something to him, but you are not respecting their wishes. This violates rule X." It takes the onus of any one person and shows a strong policy.

[Ms Blue Jay]

49 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

But, I tend to think we should empower women to make their own choices in these matters and respect those choices.  Kellee seemed to have a lot of options in this situation, which I think is a good thing.   

And I think we should empower powerful corporations to make choices about sexual harassment.  They already have the power, but they choose not to use it accordingly.  I say they should.

Kellee had limited options.  And it was a bad thing.  Her options would have opened up if the show had acted with some assertion, integrity, and finality.

Once again, repeating myself, I respect everything Kellee did and will do.  

49 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I am also not sure that sending the message to women, that if they make any sort of valid complaint, the only option is the man being terminated, regardless of whether the woman wants that, is a great idea.  It could have a chilling affect on women speaking up.  

Because no one is worried about that now?  People are already extremely worried about speaking up.  Making it more common to make the decision to eliminate the problems - the harassers rather than the victims - empowers the victims.  Not "chills" them.  

Edited November 20, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Sarnia]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I am also not sure that sending the message to women, that if they make any sort of valid complaint, the only option is the man being terminated, regardless of whether the woman wants that, is a great idea.  It could have a chilling affect on women speaking up.  

This was not "some sort of valid complaint", it all happened under the cameras and TPTB were witness to it all. They should have stepped up. The message that should have been sent (and not only to women) is "this behavior is not appropriate, we don't want it in our show and we are putting a stop to it now".

As Kellee said, if Dan had behaved appropriately, none of this would have happened. The pressure to think before acting should be on the man in this situation, not on the woman.

If an assaulter suffers consequences for their actions it's not the victim's fault, and it's not up to the victim to decide what they want the consequences to be. There are rules and laws, and if Survivor producers don't have rules about this type of assault and are OK to let it happen on their show, I'm not sure I want to watch that show any more.

Disclaimer : I'm not from the US, so not sure of how things work out there, but in my country (France) a magistrate can initiate an investigation when they have knowledge of the occurence of a crime even if the victim does not want to press charges. Just recently an actress has spoken up about being assaulted by a movie director when she was a teenager, and even though she says she would not press charges, the French justice system has opened an official investigation. 

[Kaiju Ballet]

Jamal on whether producers should have intervened--and the TC comment by Missy that wasn't shown. See full article here.
 

Quote

There are so many different angles when it comes to all the inappropriate touching talk that happened in the episode, but I am curious to hear your perspective on production intervening and talking to you all about that. What was that like, and what’s your take on how much or little producers did in terms of this whole situation?

This was such a messy, messy situation. There are so many ways in which the real world and Survivor collide with each other, and this particular way has got to be the ugliest. Missy made a very astute comment during that tribal council that we didn’t see. She explained that once we step foot on that beach on day one, there is no stopping the game. For 39 days, three players will have been locked into a game that has no pause button or reset button — no save points or checkpoints. So, honestly, I think it’s unfair to put it on the players to decide if production should intervene.

The consequences for a player asking for production to get involved are monumental. Moreover, at this point in the game, with so many people thinking about who they can win against at the end, certain players start to sound like mighty good options for everyone. Therefore, I think it is a judgement call that only the producers can make. They are monitoring the camp 24/7. They need to be the ones to decide when to prioritize the safety of the players. They should recognize that we are in a situation where we cannot advocate for ourselves without the fear of compromising our endgame.