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S10.E05: The Great Duggar Campout

Sew Sumi

By Sew Sumi
in Counting On

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Chicklet

Chicklet

My idiot sister-in-law who is disturbingly christian (the world is 6000 years old, God decides when the plants are thirsty and makes it rain etc), won't say devilsfood cake. It's all chocolate, and deviled eggs are just eggs. Nice to know she has something in common with a teevee star.

That "camping" trip looked miserable. Why couldn't any women go on the hike? Why did they have to do all the cooking? Ugh these people.

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cmr2014

cmr2014

19 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

Me, while watching this: "It's called JENGA, dumbasses!"

Also me: Jeremy and Derick would have known what this was called. 

Oh, and Michelle telling Spurge to "obey" says it all. 

I wasn't going to watch the clip until I read this -- I have no idea why I wanted to see this. There was no part of me that didn't believe that J'chelle had turned "family fun time" into an opportunity to harp on "instant obedience."

I wonder if any of the Gen2 Duggars have decided to not "train" their children to be instantly obedient and, if they did, if there was any conversation about it.

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cmr2014

cmr2014

On 11/16/2019 at 7:24 PM, Sew Sumi said:

Cutting room floor footage of a game of Jenga.

To continue on in my "hating on Jana" theme, I want to know why it's Jana's job to come up with fun "team building" activities. Is something about this supposed to make her a more desirable marriage partner, or are they just trying to sell her off as a camp counselor now?

This seems to be a reoccurring theme with the Duggar daughters -- we all seem to have hope for them in terms of breaking away or being able to live their own lives, and then they get social media and bombard us with their horrible religious beliefs, or their horrible housekeeping, or their horrifying parenting, and we're forced to face the reality that they are really and truly JB and J'chelle's children and their paths are going in exactly the direction that JB and J'chelle planned for them. 

From what we've seen from her in the past couple of months, I think that any hopes that we had for Jana -- her intelligence, creativity, or independence -- have been misplaced.

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floridamom

floridamom

I watched this episode that night. I have to say that Michelle was dressed like a rodeo clown. She also has gained a lot of weight. You could see the fat rolls of her back. Her hair looked witchy, those awful bulky black sneakers with leggings AND an awful long skirt over it. She had her 'never used, still looks brand new' green apron on too. Those boxy collared cotton blouses she wears look amazingly like mens' shirts....that which pertaineth to a man if you ask me. She would say, no, they are designed for women...look how the buttons go the other way. I could say  the same thing about womens' pants...they are NOT designed for men, but for women. By the tone of her voice I could tell that she did not want to do the camping segment at all. She really looked awful.

Jana? Well, that grown assed woman needs to get out of her mother's household and perhaps have some kind of life of her own. She is way too involved in her mother's life. They truly have beaten the life out of her. She comes across blander than vanilla pudding without any sugar added. I think she is also bored and intellectually under stimulated. The worst part about it is that her own parents don't really care.

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)
1 hour ago, Jeeves said:

I think most of those "Jana projects" are made for TV. We only see what they want us to see. 

Because if they didn't invent Jana projects for tv, the entire tv show would consist of these people sitting around in silence on the bus-station couches at the TTH, staring blankly into their phones. (which I don't really understand because none of them seems to know anybody except each other....) ☹️

Edited by Churchhoney
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Tikichick

Tikichick

8 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

To continue on in my "hating on Jana" theme, I want to know why it's Jana's job to come up with fun "team building" activities. Is something about this supposed to make her a more desirable marriage partner, or are they just trying to sell her off as a camp counselor now?

This seems to be a reoccurring theme with the Duggar daughters -- we all seem to have hope for them in terms of breaking away or being able to live their own lives, and then they get social media and bombard us with their horrible religious beliefs, or their horrible housekeeping, or their horrifying parenting, and we're forced to face the reality that they are really and truly JB and J'chelle's children and their paths are going in exactly the direction that JB and J'chelle planned for them. 

From what we've seen from her in the past couple of months, I think that any hopes that we had for Jana -- her intelligence, creativity, or independence -- have been misplaced.

31 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Because if they didn't invent Jana projects for tv, the entire tv show would consist of these people sitting around in silence on the bus-station couches at the TTH, staring blankly into their phones. (which I don't really understand because none of them seems to know anybody except each other....) ☹️

Jana the social director is what qualifies it as Counting On plotline, not a 19K storyline.  This is oh so clearly a different show.

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Sew Sumi

Sew Sumi

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6 hours ago, Pingaponga said:

Why did Michelle remark that she misses having all 19 kids living in the house together? That never happened. Josh was married by the time Josie (and Jordyn?) were born. Waxing nostalgic on something we know didn’t take place is just dumb.

I was yelling at my tablet when she said that. She was big pregnant with Jordyn when Smuggar got married. 

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cmr2014

cmr2014

On 11/14/2019 at 7:10 AM, Churchhoney said:

Wow, MacArthur sickening-level-of-favoritism right there on tv. 600 guys in that seminary....and Jer gets "the ministry house" because he's just new in LA.....exactly like at least 150 other guys in his class....who didn't get "the ministry house." 

And I've heard his sermons. If he got it because he's one of the most able and promising seminarians, I'll eat my hat and the Pope's hat, too. He got it because his wife he is already famous... and them that has (and kisses ass) gets. 

And she's famous because her parents got a salary by enslaving their children into a freak show (now with intra- and inter-family child molestation that's swept under the rug) based on giving wide public exposure (and some credibility) to a theology that virtually everybody else (including these people) considers about the worst and dumbest theology anyone could devise. 

So ridiculous. And the very opposite of fair. 

Isn't this part of the theology, though? They're supposedly Calvinist and my understanding of that doctrine is that God does, in fact, pick favorites. Getting stuff is a sign of God's approval. It's essentially the prosperity gospel, but very much so NOT the prosperity gospel because the people who follow MacArthur HATE the prosperity gospel . . .

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Zella

Zella

1 hour ago, cmr2014 said:

Isn't this part of the theology, though? They're supposedly Calvinist and my understanding of that doctrine is that God does, in fact, pick favorites. Getting stuff is a sign of God's approval. It's essentially the prosperity gospel, but very much so NOT the prosperity gospel because the people who follow MacArthur HATE the prosperity gospel . . .

Predestination? My understanding with predestination--or at least the way it was taught to me--is solely within the realm of the spiritual. Basically, some are the elect and some are not. But it's really more about where one ends up after death rather than one's riches on earth. Most of the Calvinists I have met are quite disdainful of people who are into worldly things. Which is not to say that they wouldn't see some success as a sign of God's favor. But I always got a true sense of scorn from the ones I knew in relation to anything that smacked of the prosperity gospel. More so from the "worldliness" angle than anything. If you could be prosperous without seeming to wallow in materialism (*cough* Jeremy *cough*), then maybe it would be less of an issue for them?

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cmr2014

cmr2014

37 minutes ago, Zella said:

Predestination? My understanding with predestination--or at least the way it was taught to me--is solely within the realm of the spiritual. Basically, some are the elect and some are not. But it's really more about where one ends up after death rather than one's riches on earth. Most of the Calvinists I have met are quite disdainful of people who are into worldly things. Which is not to say that they wouldn't see some success as a sign of God's favor. But I always got a true sense of scorn from the ones I knew in relation to anything that smacked of the prosperity gospel. More so from the "worldliness" angle than anything. If you could be prosperous without seeming to wallow in materialism (*cough* Jeremy *cough*), then maybe it would be less of an issue for them?

You could be right -- this isn't my area of expertise.

I agree that theoretically, it had to do with souls, but that more base human nature led people to assume that those that were blessed on Earth were favorites of God. It's my understanding that people who were poor, children born out of wedlock, and people who were disfigured by illness were assumed to not be members of the elect.

I think it all might be more believable if Jeremy didn't look and act like he wanted it so very, very much. If he was just going about his godly Christian life, and Jesus just happened to drop all sorts of good things into his lap, it might be possible to believe that good things happen to him because he's a good person.

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Zella

Zella

6 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

You could be right -- this isn't my area of expertise.

I agree that theoretically, it had to do with souls, but that more base human nature led people to assume that those that were blessed on Earth were favorites of God. It's my understanding that people who were poor, children born out of wedlock, and people who were disfigured by illness were assumed to not be members of the elect.

I think it all might be more believable if Jeremy didn't look and act like he wanted it so very, very much. If he was just going about his godly Christian life, and Jesus just happened to drop all sorts of good things into his lap, it might be possible to believe that good things happen to him because he's a good person.

Yeah I honestly found the whole thing confusing because I could never get past the arrogance that predestination seemed to require. But I often got the vibe that people who believed themselves to be elect would spin hardship around to say that they were being tested rather than it was a sign they were damned. Though I am sure they would take the same signs to mean someone else was damned? 

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

(edited)
12 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

Isn't this part of the theology, though? They're supposedly Calvinist and my understanding of that doctrine is that God does, in fact, pick favorites. Getting stuff is a sign of God's approval. It's essentially the prosperity gospel, but very much so NOT the prosperity gospel because the people who follow MacArthur HATE the prosperity gospel . . .

Yeah, God picks favorites in a way. But people aren't supposed to!

The deal with that, really, as I understand it, is that humans are just in no position to pretend or imagine or believe that they know what their status is with God. God is God and He's way above your petty power to understand, so don't go thinking you're great and have got things sewn up for eternity -- because knowing that is way beyond your pay grade........And don't think you can quid pro quo your way into it. All you can do is believe, obey God's laws and accept that the chips will fall as God knows they'll fall...not you.

I studied Calvin's Institutes in college....read the whole damn thing (as I'll bet substantial amounts of money that Duggar adjacents/Calvinist fan Jer hasn't ... ahem....)..... 

And besides God's ultimate disposition of things being unknown to believers no matter how smart they think they are and how smug, another thing the MacArthur gang (and lots of others) completely ignore is the huge amount of attention Calvin paid to the importance of doing good in the world, and to justice for all here on Earth. ..... It's a huge theme for him and virtually no theme at all for them. 

This interpretation accords with what I remember from studying Calvin. And it's so the opposite of the snobbery and uppitiness and disdain of snot MacArthur -- Mr. Social-Justice-Seeking-Is-EBIL!! --  and his wealthy-wannabe henchmen: 

"Justice, Not Charity

"Calvin, like other Christians before him, believed God has given the earth and its resources to human beings. As those made in the image of God, we’re called to share our resources and serve one another. Calvin often used the language of rights to describe this principle. A person is defrauded, he argued, when a need is left unmet by someone with the power to meet it.

"Caring for the poor, then, isn’t a requirement of charity but of justice, a basic demand of natural law. God is the “protector and patron of the poor,” Calvin says, the one who hears their cries and “feels himself injured in their persons.” Therefore, he won’t let their afflictions remain unavenged.

"Government

"Calvin believed one of the main responsibilities of civil government is to ensure the poor receive their rights. As he puts it in his commentary on Psalm 72:

"God takes a more special care of the poor than of others, since they are most exposed to injuries and violence. . . . David, therefore, particularly mentions that the king will be the defender of those who can only be safe under the protection of the magistrate.

"For that reason, a “just and well-regulated government will be distinguished for maintaining the rights of the poor and afflicted.”

"The rich rarely need the government’s protection, yet the poor almost always do. Thus, Calvin preached, it is “praiseworthy for a good prince to relieve his subjects’ poverty.” He must do so not only by prohibiting practices such as unjust usury, but also by opening poorhouses, hospitals, and schools. Calvin believed all pastors should preach this command, for he saw it as the clear teaching of God’s Word."

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/why-calvin-had-good-news-for-the-poor/

Edited by Churchhoney
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Minivanessa

Minivanessa

Interesting discussion of the prosperity gospel. I remember reading some long-form articles years ago about Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, after his fall from grace. My takeaway was that, at least in the circles where Bakker moved and at that time, the prosperity gospel was very attractive to people who'd grown up poor, on the wrong side of the tracks, down and out, etc. In other words, people who would be considered by Macarthur and his ilk, as low class and below them in the order of things The prosperity gospel literally equated God's blessings with money, comfort, even luxury. With going from the guy driving the beat-up old pickup truck to a man of means. With a shiny car and a big new house. And all the toys. And no longer being scorned but respected. Hell yes the Bakkers were showy. Fancy clothes, fancy lifestyle, air-conditioned dog houses, lots of bling in their clothes and houses and possessions. And I think that those congregations were fine with it. They saw themselves in Bakker and his wife; people who'd come up from hard circumstances and were reveling in God's grace and plenty. Those followers weren't given the side-eye, but welcomed in. Even if they weren't rich yet. 

I think Macarthur et al are just plain old-fashioned snobs. They enjoy the finer things in life while feeling totally entitled to them. I don't think of that crowd in terms of "prosperity gospel." 

As to Jer and Jinger, they're just your garden variety Z list celebrities clawing for their piece of the celebrity pie. 

Yawn.

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Churchhoney

Churchhoney

7 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Interesting discussion of the prosperity gospel. I remember reading some long-form articles years ago about Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, after his fall from grace. My takeaway was that, at least in the circles where Bakker moved and at that time, the prosperity gospel was very attractive to people who'd grown up poor, on the wrong side of the tracks, down and out, etc. In other words, people who would be considered by Macarthur and his ilk, as low class and below them in the order of things The prosperity gospel literally equated God's blessings with money, comfort, even luxury. With going from the guy driving the beat-up old pickup truck to a man of means. With a shiny car and a big new house. And all the toys. And no longer being scorned but respected. Hell yes the Bakkers were showy. Fancy clothes, fancy lifestyle, air-conditioned dog houses, lots of bling in their clothes and houses and possessions. And I think that those congregations were fine with it. They saw themselves in Bakker and his wife; people who'd come up from hard circumstances and were reveling in God's grace and plenty. Those followers weren't given the side-eye, but welcomed in. Even if they weren't rich yet. 

I think Macarthur et al are just plain old-fashioned snobs. They enjoy the finer things in life while feeling totally entitled to them. I don't think of that crowd in terms of "prosperity gospel." 

As to Jer and Jinger, they're just your garden variety Z list celebrities clawing for their piece of the celebrity pie. 

Yawn.

Yeah, I think this is all exactly right. 

The prosperity gospel began as a way to get poor people into church -- sometimes by people acting in good faith, who wanted the poor to share the riches, earthly and spiritual, that they believed Christianity conveyed.... and sometimes (increasingly, I guess, as time went on) by people who wanted to entice the poor and then fleece 'em, figuring, I guess, that it would be easier to hold onto the poor with promises than it would be to hold onto people who weren't so needy. And the longer you kept people holding on in hope, the more donations they'd give you.

And the MacArthur crowd envisions themselves as the true heirs of the founders from Plymouth Rock....and since they were Calvinists, we're Calvinist,  too. It's all about them seeing themselves as the natural elite of the U.S.A.

And Jer and Jingle -- just as you say. Z list all the way. As they'll learn very quickly if the show ever ends. 

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Betsyannabelle1

Betsyannabelle1

On 11/16/2019 at 10:19 PM, Sew Sumi said:

I was wondering if they couldn't say Jenga. And yeah, Mechelle telling Spurge to obey was maddening.

And for Michelle to pull Spurge aside to discipline/tell him to obey while his parents were there & were more than capable of handling any necessary discipline if just infuriating!!!!

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HahYallDoin

HahYallDoin

(edited)
On 11/16/2019 at 12:58 PM, louannems said:

And, really, JB thought he could just dig a pooping hole, in a state park with bathroom facilities?  Fake for the show.

Agree with the bolded.

But...Abbie’s look of horror, upon JB’s announcement, was not! 

Edited by HahYallDoin
d, not r.
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becca3891

becca3891

On 11/19/2019 at 12:38 AM, cmr2014 said:

You could be right -- this isn't my area of expertise.

I agree that theoretically, it had to do with souls, but that more base human nature led people to assume that those that were blessed on Earth were favorites of God. It's my understanding that people who were poor, children born out of wedlock, and people who were disfigured by illness were assumed to not be members of the elect.

I think it all might be more believable if Jeremy didn't look and act like he wanted it so very, very much. If he was just going about his godly Christian life, and Jesus just happened to drop all sorts of good things into his lap, it might be possible to believe that good things happen to him because he's a good person.

To be fair, speaking as an atheist who grew up with Calvinism, it's not true that the poor, children born out of wedlock or the disfigured are assumed to not be members of the elect.  Calvinism is bizarre but it's not snobbish or anything like the prosperity gospel.

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Annabel11

Annabel11

On 11/19/2019 at 12:08 PM, Betsyannabelle1 said:

And for Michelle to pull Spurge aside to discipline/tell him to obey while his parents were there & were more than capable of handling any necessary discipline if just infuriating!!!!

Yes this considering her own daughter Jennie would not participate and said no to doing things she was supposed to. She came across as defiant and unenthused  to me. But Jill wasn't there to discipline her. Fascinating dynamics.

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