S02.E09: Episode 9

[paramitch]

Hmm... I finished this episode, and while I enjoyed this season, it didn't really work for me. As others have commented, it felt disjointed to me.

The use of music here was for me a strong point and a weak one. The use of the children's choir as the final opening credits was chilling and incredibly sad (and reminded me of the way "The Wire" would alter its opening music for subtext). But the use of Marianne Faithfull's "Guilt" for the close just didn't really work for most of the characters, based on the story we were given:

• I get that Holden feels guilt, but on the other hand, he did every single thing he could to catch the killer, only to be treated like crap by the people he was trying to help. The coldness of almost everyone he encountered just felt outside believability to me. (More on this farther down too... I feel like it's a general problem with the show.)
• Tench did the best he could. If his wife hadn't been such a shrewish cliche, I could have felt something during that final scene, but my main takeaway was (to echo @Melina22) that Nancy not even leaving sheets on the bed was the coldest thing about it.
• I don't believe Wendy has a thing to feel guilty about. Her girlfriend was consistently rude and judgmental of Wendy every time she tried to show vulnerability or intimacy, and ultimately proved herself to be a hypocrite.

For me, the second half of the season was much weaker than the first. I was far more interested in Wendy's progression as part of the team, in the further fine-tuning of the unit's methods and insights, than the horrific incompetence by the Atlanta PD. I think Atlanta should have been a short 2-3 episode arc, versus so much of the season.

Ultimately, while I like the show and its chilly air, the lack of affect on almost everyone in the show this season did begin to wear on me. I understand that Fincher doesn't want the actors to over-emote (He had to teach Groff not to smile while he spoke, AT ALL -- while Torv has also talked about his repeatedly making her back down in her performance this season as well as last).

But for me, the universal coldness, the lack of warmth and expressiveness in the actors in almost every single role, was too much this season. Groff and especially McCallany were able to overcome this because they are naturally warm actors who give us so much with their eyes (also Albert Jones, who played the other cop in Atlanta who helped them -- I liked him a lot). I wish they'd let Torv express a bit more, but she made it believable to me that Wendy would be reserved. 

But it was the supporting characters that frustrated me. Just a neverending parade of robotic, mean-faced, chilly people, from Nancy  to her son, from the mothers in Atlanta, to the bureaucracy and other cops, etc. It just began to feel monochromatic to me. 

The show is most powerful, for me, when we see the striking disparities between the coldness of the serial killers and the warm, living, and caring aspects of the team and investigators, even if they are reserved. It's a fine line but I feel the show failed at that this season. And then, oddly, gave us a Ford who had learned how to show warmth in a microcosm in which it made no difference and nobody cared.

On 8/18/2019 at 1:47 PM, atlantaloves said:

Oh yeah, I had a buddy in the GBI (Ga. Bureau of Investigation) who worked with the fiber people, who gave me inside scoop every now and then, and I trusted her completely.  She could not believe what they had on him just from fiber evidence. (fiber evidence was totally new in this case as I recall). They got the right guy believe me.  

This just makes the lack of further prosecution or progress on the case that much more tragic to me.

On 8/18/2019 at 11:48 PM, Roseanna said:

Actually, the season 2 presented important things. First, Holden is too fond of the profile, too quick to make conclusions and unable to look for other alternatives.

Third, the private lifes. The story of Tench's son is an integral part of the basic questions: what makes a person do horrible things? is it because they are born bad or because bad things are done to them as a child? is there any hope that the son can be healed? 

Actually, it was the lack of Holden's story that was a failure. He identified with the sexual murderers so much that first he imitated them when having sex with his girlfried and his relationship with broke down and then, after he was embraced by one of the murderers, he himself broke down in the end of the season 1.

And now, after a few days in the hospital and medicine he is OK? Not convincing. Or, does the medicine influence on him so that he is less intuitive and narrowly concentrated on the profile?

I like the idea of Tench's storyline this season, but it didn't work for me, not least because the wife and child were just two more stone-faced, angry characters who seemed completely oblivious to Tench as a warm and caring man. Yes, he made mistakes in trying to bond with both, but nobody would give him an inch, so he was fighting a losing battle. I wish they'd given us a child character who gave us a bit more. As I noted above, the little boy's lack of affect just felt repetitive to me on a level I feel was probably unintended.

It's completely realistic that Holden recovered in just a few days -- he simply had a panic attack, and had to learn how to manage his anxiety. I also liked that because it was the first time last season that we saw any kind of huge emotion from Holden, and I liked that he was visibly humbler and warmer this season.

I completely disagree with your take on Holden as identifying with the murderers in season 1. I don't think it's that simple. I think what we were seeing was actually a young man who had kept himself living a very rigid, boxed-in life, whose eyes were opened to a more imaginative, experimental sex life by his girlfriend (on a symbolic level as well), and who also began to realize the incredible complexity (good and bad) that people were capable of. I didn't think he was identifying with the killers so much as he was able to compartmentalize what they did from who they were, so that he was able to occasionally have real empathy for them, and even accept their friendship -- while then mocking them for it later, when he felt safe to do so.

But he'd kept them at arms' length, secure in his safety from them. So to me, the moment with Kemper was a real turning point for him, and a lesson he'd badly needed.

On 8/22/2019 at 2:36 PM, PhilMarlowe2 said:

1) Season 1 built to this big emotional climax that questioned Holden's methods - he became outright hostile and self-destructive (walking out of the Internal Affairs interrogation), misguidedly marched into this personal exchange with Kemper at the hospital and then had an honest-to-God panic attack. Then Season 2 started to introduce the idea that his emotional instability might make him a liability in interviews - and I thought we were building to this tension where they need Holden because of his finesse with the killers but where he presents an increasing liability due to his emotional instability. But then this went nowhere. I guess Holden took some Valium and everything is okay? His character seemed to recede into the thematic background.

2) Similarly, the entire FBI group dynamic hit a standstill. You had the initial tension where the square, Christian, tattletale assistant was on the outs from the rest of the group; you had the new smarmy FBI director who seemed like he was going to pit the team members against themselves; you had Wendy who seemed like she was going to find her own footing as a powerful interviewer - and who also seemed like she was feeling outside of the group; you had Bill and Wendy not trusting Holden; and, again, all of this went nowhere.

5) If we're going to go into their personal lives, I would so much rather it be subtler and more intimate. For example, I think it would be very interesting to see the Christian agent trying to square the more complex view of humanity he is cultivating with his previous beliefs. Or to go deeper into Wendy's repression (and inability to ask for what she wants).

I agree with all of this. I especially wish we could have seen signs that Holden's anxiety was present in some of their up-close interrogations (and also perhaps ways in which the anxiety empowered him unexpectedly).

On 8/23/2019 at 3:44 PM, Melina22 said:

Agreed. I commented in a previous thread how Mrs. Tench grated on me, and how the son was given nothing to do but stand and look blank. I was shocked when Tench came home to an empty house then almost laughed. Talk about cold. She didn't even leave him a set of sheets? Come on. 😁 

This!

On 8/24/2019 at 11:53 PM, Cheezwiz said:

Yes to this! While I felt bad for Nancy, my sympathy for her grew thin as the season progressed. Her being in total denial about her kid, and her refusal to recognize that her husband was trying his best to be there as much as he could manage became frustrating. I feel the course of action she eventually chose was all about her, and not really about trying to help her kid. It may have been a contrived plot point, but I did find it interesting that Bill was having to wrestle with this in his home life. I felt very sad for him at the end of the show. Holt McCallany has a super-long resume, with all kinds of film & TV that I've seen in the past, but this is the first thing that I've noticed him in - he's perfect for the character.

I think what was missing in so many Nancy/Bill scenes was -- like, I get that she is angry and cold and upset and scared. But this is her HUSBAND. And he's trying so hard. I wish she'd been able to give a moment, a breath, a pause, to stop and go, "Look, I love you, but I'm just tired and I feel alone in all this." And for them to find even a temporary rapprochement. Or, like, where she CHANGES EXPRESSION from cold anger and judgment and just lets him see how scared she is? How tired? How lonely because murderers get more of him than she does?

As a counterpoint I would offer the marvelous monologue by Diane Venora to Al Pacino in HEAT. They are having problems, including a troubled child. She deeply loves him and he pushes her away. She finally gives him this gorgeously written speech about how much she loves him, and he responds and in that moment, we know it will never ever work.

But as presented here, that subplot just felt obvious, badly written, and badly acted in terms of Nancy's actress to me.

On 8/25/2019 at 12:13 PM, sistermagpie said:

With the Atlanta murders I liked how you could also see that the mothers as well had their preconceptions that made them less open. Sure Holden might have stuck too close to his profile--but there actually is reason to think WW did it while there's really no real reason to think it was the Klan despite their history. The fact that the hotel concierge's face fell and she got angry as soon as she saw the suspect was black showed she was as attached to her profile as Holden was to his.

Great point. I just did not buy that their only reaction to Holden, even when he arrives under false pretenses, would be cold anger. Especially as presented, when he is wholly on board, open with them, open about wanting to help. Wouldn't at least a few be desperate to talk to him, to ask for help, to cry, to give him whatever help he needed? I mean, if it was me, I wouldn't have been snide about buying a dish of food there. I'd have been, "HERE IS ALL THE FOOD. PLEASE HELP US."

And the concierge's reaction in the finale felt like a retcon to me, when he had already shared several of his ideas and theories and she hadn't shown anywhere near that hostility, and had seemed to respect him. Especially when SHE brought him into the process and he was never less than sincere about truly wanting to help. (It was a shame to me, and I felt the actress, who was warm and wonderful, was ultimately wasted, becoming just another antagonist.)

I so enjoy the show but this is its consistent weakness. Characters who would at least be accessible or worth talking to are treated as cardboard representations of simplistic emotions. Ironically, if anything, the few characters given license to portray full emotions are the serial killers they interview.

Edited August 28, 2019 by paramitch
Added actor name and link to Torv's comment

[Melina22]

Fantastic post, paramitch. You sum up my problems with this season perfectly. 

I watched a YouTube interview with Anna, Jonathan and Holt. Only Holt bore any resemblance at all to his character, since Tench is given moments of levity and the occasional chance to laugh. Anna and Jonathan were relaxed and smiling, like actual humans, so... nothing like their characters. I get that actors transform themselves for roles, but ideally they transform themselves into people who are recognizably real and human. 

I guess in the end I don't enjoy the director's style on this show, for all the reasons you enumerate above. It's probably not fair to blame any of the actors. And yet I watched the whole season, which is increasingly rare for me, so there was certainly something in the show that intrigued me and captured my interest, despite the shortcomings we've discussed. So it looks like I'm in for season 3 despite myself. 

[HunterHunted]

On 8/21/2019 at 1:12 PM, sistermagpie said:

Right, there's really multiple ways to interpret the symbolism and we're not privvy to what Brian's thoughts actually were. Both his and the victim's mother choose one that makes Brian the most innocent and compassionate and they could be right, but we have no idea.

It's based on this case.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/little/readings/crucifixion.html

On 8/21/2019 at 1:12 PM, sistermagpie said:

There was a L&O ep with a little girl who was a killer and manipulated and older, mentally challenged child to help her kill a child. In her case they put batteries in the kid's mouth because the girl wanted to know if the batteries would revive him. I couldn't help but think of that with the interpretations of Brian's actions.

"Killerz" is based on

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Bell?wprov=sfla1 and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Bulger?wprov=sfla1

On 8/21/2019 at 1:12 PM, sistermagpie said:

Oh, one other thing I thought was a big anachronism was Tench's wife saying she was trying to arrange "playdates." I don't know when that term came into widespread use but I never heard it in my childhood and the show is in the early 80s at this point. It seems very connected to the type of parenting where the parents arrange a kid's social life rather than kids just deciding they want to play together and ask their parents if they could. Which seems to be more in line with the way Brian's being raised, given how he's running around unsupervised with older kids and able to let them into an empty house to do it.

What part of the country did you grow up in? I grew up in Western Pennsylvania. I was also a kid in the 80s. Playdate was used by the parents in my community. I think our social circle was 50/50 with latchkey kids and stay at home moms.

https://www.quora.com/When-did-people-start-setting-play-dates-for-their-kids-Why-did-this-phrase-start

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I can see a six year old having heard the story of the crucifixion and resurrection in Sunday School thinking that being on the cross could bring a dead child to life. We have no idea what's going on in Brian's mind of course, but that does really seem to be a reasonable reading.

We have seen the whole family in the church.

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

And while moving wouldn't solve everything by a long shot - it would take her away from the constant scrutiny and judgment from the neighbors and parishioners who used to be her friends. She's almost completely isolated - living alone most of the time with a boy who is at this point mute as well. I don't really think it was a bad idea to move, it would alleviate a small portion of her stress. I don't know that I got the sense that she meant that after they moved they wouldn't do anything to try to help Brian.

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Still, it seems like a really bad idea to run off without Bill who, to be fair, told her he wasn't totally against moving. It's not like he was just putting his foot down and insisting they stay there. Maybe she's hoping he'll ask if he's welcome wherever she went to, because while I don't think she's completely in denial, she isn't dealing with everything head on either. She might feel like she's dealing with this alone already, but I can't imagine she won't feel the loss of Bill both as a husband and as a father. Especially since she's basically admitted that she's starting to feel negatively towards Brian himself.

I agree with Sistermagpie: while moving out wasn't in itself a bad idea, doing it without Bill certainly is. Or put it more harsly: any good that moving out could have brought to Brian, is nullified by losing his father. Can't she understand that Brian is no more her baby but in such an age that he needs a father even more a mother? 

As it has already been here, she thinks mostly about herself.  Because she herself wants to forget, so she believes that "children forget easily".

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

I agree with Sistermagpie: while moving out wasn't in itself a bad idea, doing it without Bill certainly is. Or put it more harsly: any good that moving out could have brought to Brian, is nullified by losing his father. Can't she understand that Brian is no more her baby but in such an age that he needs a father even more a mother? 

As it has already been here, she thinks mostly about herself.  Because she herself wants to forget, so she believes that "children forget easily".

I don't think moving out by herself was a good move - I just understand it. I also understand Bill's situation. They were both under incredible stress - but Bill had the one thing Nancy didn't - a temporary escape from the Brian situation (sure, it wasn't really an escape, and was additional stress, but I can see how she could see it that way.) She wasn't feeling heard and Bill hadn't seen Brian staring at that little girl like a target, which frightened her. Nor did he have to face the daily shunning and shame that she did. He was tortured about it - but it wasn't in his face all the time.

Running away from your problems won't solve them - but people do it all the time. It's a very human thing to do. I don't like Nancy, and I very much like Bill, but I also don't see Nancy as a shrew. I can sympathize with a woman whose husband (even before this season) is gone most of the time and who is essentially a single parent. Is she wrong headed - yeah. Absolutely.

[swanpride]

It would be easier to sympathize with her if it were only about her and Bill. But it is about her and Bill and Brian. And since Brian is the only child in the set-up, my main concern happens to be with him. The move shouldn't have happened without talking to the therapist (while also asking him if Brian should have contact with the mother of the dead child - I am not sure if her talking to him would help him or make him feel even worse, but in any case, the option should be discussed), it shouldn't have happened so sudden, and there should have been some thought put where a good place for a move would be. Maybe close to a school which has the expertise to help a child like Brian, if something along the line existed back in the day.

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, paramitch said:

It's completely realistic that Holden recovered in just a few days -- he simply had a panic attack, and had to learn how to manage his anxiety. I also liked that because it was the first time last season that we saw any kind of huge emotion from Holden, and I liked that he was visibly humbler and warmer this season.

I completely disagree with your take on Holden as identifying with the murderers in season 1. I don't think it's that simple. I think what we were seeing was actually a young man who had kept himself living a very rigid, boxed-in life, whose eyes were opened to a more imaginative, experimental sex life by his girlfriend (on a symbolic level as well), and who also began to realize the incredible complexity (good and bad) that people were capable of. I didn't think he was identifying with the killers so much as he was able to compartmentalize what they did from who they were, so that he was able to occasionally have real empathy for them, and even accept their friendship -- while then mocking them for it later, when he felt safe to do so.

But he'd kept them at arms' length, secure in his safety from them. So to me, the moment with Kemper was a real turning point for him, and a lesson he'd badly needed.

By saying that Holden identied with the killers, I don't mean that he identified with their murders, but that he had some attitudes with them, like misogony, albeit of course in lesser degree.

If Holden really succeeded to compartmentalize, why did become impotent when his girlfriend had highheels and, before all, why did he then blame her. His comment "it's not you" could be interpreted meaning "you behave like a slut and I don't like it".

There was also the earlier scene where his girlfriend taught Holden how to answer when her mom asked about his mother because a son who liked and respected his mother would also treat his girlfriend and wife well. Holden never met his girlfriend's mom but, more important still, we have never learned what kind relationship he has his mother, save that she startled him when he was masturbating and that after he left home for studying, she asked if he had had sex. When Tench asked if the story was true, Holden said only yes, without adding "but my mom was also (whatever positive qualities she had)."

And there were also the ugly scene where Holden got confession by decribing 12-year-old girl ripe enough for sex and even alluring the culprit to it? Why didn't Holden got and vomit afterwards? Instead, he felt victorious.

[Sakura12]

We saw Holden trying to help, all they heard from him was empty promises. The police chief also appeared interested in solving the case, then he was told not to investigate too hard by the Mayor. So when Holden comes in giving them the same empty promises and same my hands are tied by my bosses excuses. I can see whey they would be cold to him as well. To them it was just another white cop saying he's going to do something then doing nothing. Then Holden telling them he thinks the suspect is black just based on his own theory with no proof to back it up. Black men are still the scapegoat for most crimes that are committed. Because all white person had to say was they saw a black man around and the cops would eagerly go arrest him over a white suspect. So I get where the mother's are coming from. 

Wayne Williams was arrested for the murder of 2 adult men, not any one of the 27 children. They don't know how the law works and that getting him for those recent murders was the most likely to get a conviction and get him off the streets. To those mothers their children's murders were not solved by Williams arrest. Holden going to them expecting some kind of congratulations was arrogant and self centered. He got closure for being right, in their eyes they got nothing. 

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, paramitch said:

But it was the supporting characters that frustrated me. Just a neverending parade of robotic, mean-faced, chilly people, from Nancy  to her son, from the mothers in Atlanta, to the bureaucracy and other cops, etc. It just began to feel monochromatic to me. 

Makes you really miss Benji from season 1 who was always bursting into tears. LOL.

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, swanpride said:

It would be easier to sympathize with her if it were only about her and Bill. But it is about her and Bill and Brian. And since Brian is the only child in the set-up, my main concern happens to be with him. The move shouldn't have happened without talking to the therapist (while also asking him if Brian should have contact with the mother of the dead child - I am not sure if her talking to him would help him or make him feel even worse, but in any case, the option should be discussed), it shouldn't have happened so sudden, and there should have been some thought put where a good place for a move would be. Maybe close to a school which has the expertise to help a child like Brian, if something along the line existed back in the day.

I get that - Brian's future is of course paramount. Again, I'm not saying she did the right thing, merely that I could understand it and sympathize with the stress she was under. And, remembering the scene where she watched Brian come out of school totally isolated, I can believe she also told herself this was the right thing for Brian - to get him away from kids who knew what had happened. I don't think she intended to eliminate therapy or anything like that - but not everyone, especially then, thought that they should check with therapists to make personal life decisions (whether or not it makes sense to do that).

Frankly, I was relieved she'd just moved away. When Bill couldn't get her on the phone, I was a bit afraid he'd come home to a murder/suicide.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Frankly, I was relieved she'd just moved away. When Bill couldn't get her on the phone, I was a bit afraid he'd come home to a murder/suicide.

That's what I worried about too. Or that something else had happened with Brian and they were in trouble or something. 

It's funny I just realized that she basically mirrored Wendy slipping out of the girlfriend's apartment and then ghosting her on the phone. 

It also occurs to me that maybe one of the reasons she was drawn to and then left the girlfriend was that she was similar to her former lover/mentor, always testing her and witholding approval. But then she saw that objectively the girlfriend was much easier on herself and channeled her snobbish mentor to protect herself.

[swanpride]

I honestly didn't think that Wendy was THAT snobbish...her throwing the fact that she was just a bartender into her face was not really about her thinking that someone with such a job is beneath her, but about her lying to herself that she likes her place in life when in reality she has a crappy apartment, a crappy job and has to lie in order to keep contact to her child.

[leighdear]

Nancy couldn't even leave him a damn set of sheets on the bed, and a pillow?   

To me, that was a major "fuck you and your job, Bill". 

She left the couch she hated, a stripped bed and his clothes hanging in the closet.   I never liked her, so that passive/aggressive disappearing act didn't surprise me.  

I'm good with the way it played out & look forward to next season.  Hopefully WITHOUT Nancy.  

[HunterHunted]

Nancy has always been stubborn, intractable, and demanding. There wasn't a lot give and take or mutuality in their marriage. I understand that the details of the cases may have bothered Nancy, but she never seemed to allow Bill space to discuss his work even in a general fashion. If he wanted to complain about Holden being an obnoxious shit, Nancy basically put her fingers in her ears. I understand that Nancy was didn't like the discussion of serial killers at the barbecue, but at the same time she's got to understand that some people might be fascinated by what Bill does just because he worked for the FBI. And people do routinely talk about their jobs. That not unusual. Nancy decides that Brian doesn't need therapy. Nancy decides that they need to move. Nancy is a low level narcissist. She's not like Holden who is all "Me, me, me. Listen to me." Nancy is constantly complaining and externalizing. It becomes this constant refrain of why Bill wasn't helping or supporting her. Yes, Bill does travel, but he does try when he's at home. And Nancy's over the top reactions every time Bill's work comes up reminds you that Bill can't host parties at his home where he invited FBI colleagues or go to FBI functions with her because Nancy gets weird and high strung even when schmoozing in FBI circles.

[swanpride]

No, that is unfair...it was Bill who largely shut her out of his work. That Nancy don't want him to discuss this stuff with his neighbour doesn't mean that she doesn't want him to discuss it with her, to be more of a partner to him then just the person he comes back to from his travel. But Bill hasn't really shared his life with her for a long, long time. Instead he apparently uprooted her several times for his job.

Bill tried, but not every woman is made for being basically a single who has from time to time a guest in her house.

[AZChristian]

I love Bill, but I'm on Nancy's side in the "what do we do about Brian" discussion.

He is gone 5/7 of the week.  Even though he cares, he has a totally separate situation (his job) which demands his attention and energy the majority of his time. 

Nancy has no break from her situation.  Her son is a pariah in the neighborhood, at school and (probably) at their church.  Her job as a realtor is probably in the toilet because everyone knows about Brian.  

Bill picked Brian up from school ONE DAY, and even he saw the other kids avoiding him, talking about him, and pointing at him on his way out of school.  Nancy sees this EVERY day.  She feels his ostracism vicariously.

When Nancy has mentioned to Bill that maybe they should move to a new neighborhood for a new start, Bill just shuts down.  His mind is made up.  He won't even consider it.  No wonder Nancy feels trapped.  SHE is the one living with this all day, every day.  Bill gets a physical break 5 days a week, and has been seen to tell her when he gets back in town, "I'm wiped out.  Let me get some sleep and we'll talk tomorrow."  She wants . . . NEEDS . . . to talk NOW.

Back in the days when this is set, I remember hearing discussions of divorce.  It was often said that if a woman left the guy one chair, a bed, one pot, and one set of eating utensils and a plate, she had fulfilled her obligation.  When I saw that she had cleaned the house out except for a few things, it took me back mentally to those days.

This is a bad situation, no doubt about it.  But Nancy is suffering as much as Brian.  Others can take over some of Bill's work responsibilities (and maybe he needs to recognize that), but I don't think anyone can take over his responsibility to his family.

JMO.

[Roseanna]

38 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

When Nancy has mentioned to Bill that maybe they should move to a new neighborhood for a new start, Bill just shuts down.  His mind is made up.  He won't even consider it.  

On the contrary, Bill said that "wouldn't say no" which means that he would consider the matter. It wasn't only undertandable but right that he wanted to wait until the case of Atlanta was solved after which the desicion could be made in peace and reasonably, after consulting the psychiatrist (which Nancy didn't do, so far we know).

The most important aspect is that the way Nancy acted was extremely harmful to Brian. Bill wasn't an abusive husband and father from whom a wife must flee in secret when he is away.

[AZChristian]

14 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

On the contrary, Bill said that "wouldn't say no" which means that he would consider the matter. It wasn't only undertandable but right that he wanted to wait until the case of Atlanta was solved after which the desicion could be made in peace and reasonably, after consulting the psychiatrist (which Nancy didn't do, so far we know).

So Nancy and Brian have to live in isolation until Bill is willing to make his family a priority over his job and "consider" moving?  Wouldn't it be better - if they're going to be without him all week - to be in a place where they are not ostracized?  They were seeing the psychiatrist together; why would it be so awful to ask about moving sooner, rather than later?

(I'm  not asking YOU the questions specifically, @Roseanna.  Just questioning the behavior of the character.)

[sistermagpie]

30 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

So Nancy and Brian have to live in isolation until Bill is willing to make his family a priority over his job and "consider" moving?  Wouldn't it be better - if they're going to be without him all week - to be in a place where they are not ostracized?  They were seeing the psychiatrist together; why would it be so awful to ask about moving sooner, rather than later?

Imo, yes. He said he wasn't saying no, which meant he was listening to her and was open to it. She was getting what she wanted. He wasn't just blowing her off forever. He'd changed his pov already.

If she couldn't wait a second more she might at least have just said that, told him she was setting up a temporary situation where she'd be researching other places she could talk to him about (she's the realtor, after all). She preferred to make a dramatic, passive-aggressive gesture which I'm sure was very satisfying to her in the moment but might not be so great in the long run. 

I know it was an advantage for Bill that he could get a break from it while he concentrated on other killers, but Nancy also had the advantage of not having several sets of people expecting her attention at once for very important things. Especially since as far as we could tell Nancy's suffering was internally generated--by which I don't mean she was making it up, but it's not like people were egging her house or Brian was coming home crying and beat up or had suddenly lost all his friends, since he never had any as far as I can tell--the older kids he tagged around with seemed to be it. What Nancy was dealing with was the fact that he'd emotionally regressed and was frankly starting to frighten her because she wanted to avoid him just as other people did.

And that's a horrible thing for her to be going through, but it's not like there's any guarantee (or even good reason to think) that those specific things would stop if she moved to a new suburb where instead of worrying about what people were saying about her she was worrying about people finding out about Brian. The same Brian's coming with her to the new house. (I also think about how she was always telling Bill how much Brian wanted to be with him and wonder if that, too, was true or if it was wishful thinking.)

[Clanstarling]

39 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

So Nancy and Brian have to live in isolation until Bill is willing to make his family a priority over his job and "consider" moving?  Wouldn't it be better - if they're going to be without him all week - to be in a place where they are not ostracized?  They were seeing the psychiatrist together; why would it be so awful to ask about moving sooner, rather than later?

(I'm  not asking YOU the questions specifically, @Roseanna.  Just questioning the behavior of the character.)

Also, there was no telling how long it would take to solve the case. There's no definite timeline for any case, no matter how many agents you throw at it. 

[AZChristian]

14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Imo, yes. 

We may not agree, but I appreciate the fact that we can express our differing points of view without putting each other down.  Thanks.

[sistermagpie]

18 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

We may not agree, but I appreciate the fact that we can express our differing points of view without putting each other down.  Thanks.

Absolutely! I don't think anything you're saying is wrong, really. As Clanstarling also said, it's not like when Bill says "I think we've got him!" it means that the case is really over. There's probably plenty of times things dragged out longer than they thought. It was much easier for Bill to procrastinate about things because he was away, imagine that things will be better once he gets back etc. I think it was reasonable for Nancy to decide that on this issue they would be doing it her way and Bill was going to have to get on board or be left behind.

11 hours ago, swanpride said:

No, that is unfair...it was Bill who largely shut her out of his work. That Nancy don't want him to discuss this stuff with his neighbour doesn't mean that she doesn't want him to discuss it with her, to be more of a partner to him then just the person he comes back to from his travel.

I was thinking about this too and I feel like it seems like they have a real problem of disconnect there that makes it difficult on both sides too. Because on one hand I think in S1 Nancy does say something about wanting him to open up. But otoh we can clearly see that she's uncomfortable hearing about his work and thinks it's terrible. I think, for instance, she saw the photos being in the house as awful. When she was told there was a murder in the house where she was a realtor she was so immediately upset she dropped a plate on the floor!

So Bill does shut her out, but it's also obvious that this isn't someone he could talk to about his work no matter how supportive she wants to be.

I feel like this is a common trope on TV but doesn't seem very likely IRL. TV seems to love, for instance, spouses who are constantly trying to get their partners in law enforcement to quit and are uncomfortable with the danger etc and I always think it seems fake--who would marry someone with that kind of disconnect?  I guess it might be more likely in the past where it was almost taken as a given that husbands didn't talk to their wives about their work and maybe the idea was that men liked the idea of a woman who was too gentle and pure for their work and thought their home should be protected from it. But it's still hard for me to imagine living that way. 

[leighdear]

In addition to Bill not really wanting to burden his wife with the more gruesome details of his investigations, the FBI, as a federal agency, has a lot of restrictions on what spouses can share.  That's not just TV stuff, it's law enforcement and federal government restrictions.  Sure, he can tell folks he interviewed Manson, but he only gave outsiders the most superficial stuff.  

You can't just demand "Open up to me, now!" when your partner is a government employee.  She knew that, she just wanted Bill to magically make all their problems with Brian go away.  Blaming his job and the neighborhood was the easiest way for her to do it. 

And where was Brian supposedly when the toddler was killed?  I missed that part.   

[festivus]

3 hours ago, AZChristian said:

I love Bill, but I'm on Nancy's side in the "what do we do about Brian" discussion.

I am too even though I can't stand Nancy and I think the actress is not good. I think Bill has his head in the sand even more than she does about the Brian situation precisely because of what he does for a living. You could tell he was having a real hard time dealing with the fact that his son could have anything in common with these killers he was interviewing. Meanwhile Nancy is at home all the time with this child and she can feel how things are just not going to get better in this situation and she feels like she has no support. I've been there (not with a disturbed child) but with not having support. I put my foot down about it and said basically either shit or get off the pot, so I can really identify with her side of it.

[sistermagpie]

14 minutes ago, leighdear said:

And where was Brian supposedly when the toddler was killed?  I missed that part.   

I think he was there with the older boys. When the kid died it was Brian who suggested putting him on the cross. It was Brian that gave them the key to the lock box to get into the house so they could use it kind of a clubhouse or whatever. He still had the key when the police came to the house, iirc, because they didn't find it in the lock box.

Everyone describes him as just a witness but I guess we don't know if he ever touched the boy at all.

[festivus]

On 8/27/2019 at 1:29 PM, MaggieG said:

This show is so intense, so I always enjoy it when a humorous moment happens. Like WW buying Ford and Tench some lunch and Tench saying "we've been made" while snacking on fries. 🍟

I meant to reply to this and forgot. I like the small humorous moments too. We saw him later at the house stakeout still eating from the bag. My favorite moment though was when the one police officer sprayed himself in the face with the bug spray when they were staking out the bridges at night. I've never gone that far although I've sprayed it on my hands and rubbed it on my face. I know that can't be good but summers in the south are BRUTAL y'all.

[Roseanna]

48 minutes ago, festivus said:

I am too even though I can't stand Nancy and I think the actress is not good. I think Bill has his head in the sand even more than she does about the Brian situation precisely because of what he does for a living. You could tell he was having a real hard time dealing with the fact that his son could have anything in common with these killers he was interviewing. Meanwhile Nancy is at home all the time with this child and she can feel how things are just not going to get better in this situation and she feels like she has no support. I've been there (not with a disturbed child) but with not having support. I put my foot down about it and said basically either shit or get off the pot, so I can really identify with her side of it.

I think Nancy was first in complete denial when she said that Brian hadn't done anything bad although he clearly had. At least he didn't tell anyone.  

But the last time we saw her, something had changed and she seemed to abhor Brian and insist that whatever he had done it wasn't her fault because she had hadn't given birth to him.

In addition she was unable even ponder the offer's mother's request to meet Brian and say that she isn't angry towards him. 

All in all, I believe she is unable to give Brian any help because she simply thinks that when the matter isn't talked about, it will vanish.

Her dream about "my beautiful boy" is crudely shattered. She had naively believed that whatever horrible crimes her husband investigates, they can never happen in her neighborhood, much less involve her son. 

As for Bill, on the basis of the scene where he brought Brian to eat icecream, he wanted to hear Brian to talk about it although his obvious distress wasn't the best way to encourange Brian to do it.

Obviously, not only Brian but also Nancy and Bill need psychiatric help. But because they being who they are and the age they live in, they hardly admit it.  

[cinsbythesea]

Nancy left him with the couch he wasn't ready to get rid of and a bare mattress - didn't even leave his pillow!   She's been just a *bit* angry with you Bill - do you get that now?!   

It's a real shame that they stopped investigating the child murders after they took Williams into custody.  I haven't had a chance to look it up - but did the murders stop after he was arrested?  I'm pretty sure they did?

[leighdear]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think he was there with the older boys. When the kid died it was Brian who suggested putting him on the cross. It was Brian that gave them the key to the lock box to get into the house so they could use it kind of a clubhouse or whatever. He still had the key when the police came to the house, iirc, because they didn't find it in the lock box.

Everyone describes him as just a witness but I guess we don't know if he ever touched the boy at all.

And he's seven, eight years old?  Who the hell was watching the kids to begin with, and how did they have all that unsupervised time? How much older were the other kids?  I can't believe I missed so much.  

Where was supermom Nancy when her kid was doing all this "just watching" stuff with older kids? 

And she wasn't at home alone with her child every day.  he was in school and she worked.  Different than being tethered to an infant or toddler that you can't get away from. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by leighdear

[Clanstarling]

9 minutes ago, leighdear said:

And he's seven, eight years old?  Who the hell was watching the kids to begin with, and how did they have all that unsupervised time? How much older were the other kids?  I can't believe I missed so much.  

Where was supermom Nancy when her kid was doing all this "just watching" stuff with older kids? 

And she wasn't at home alone with her child every day.  he was in school and she worked.  Different than being tethered to an infant or toddler that you can't get away from. 

I believe he is 6. As for where Nancy was, I think Bill coming home in the middle of the night and finding the back door open was an indication that Brian snuck out. He also, if I recall correctly, wet the bed that night for the first in a long time.

As a real estate agent whose son was present at the murder of a child in a home she was selling, I imagine her work dwindled to nothing.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

25 minutes ago, leighdear said:

And he's seven, eight years old?  Who the hell was watching the kids to begin with, and how did they have all that unsupervised time? How much older were the other kids?  I can't believe I missed so much.  

Where was supermom Nancy when her kid was doing all this "just watching" stuff with older kids? 

And she wasn't at home alone with her child every day.  he was in school and she worked.  Different than being tethered to an infant or toddler that you can't get away from. 

16 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I believe he is 6. As for where Nancy was, I think Bill coming home in the middle of the night and finding the back door open was an indication that Brian snuck out. He also, if I recall correctly, wet the bed that night for the first in a long time. 

As a real estate agent whose son was present at the murder of a child in a home she was selling, I imagine her work dwindled to nothing.

Brian's also living in a time when it's perfectly normal for a young child to be outside without an adult looking at him. Nancy herself said part of Brian's regression was that he was always in his room now. Presumably before he'd have gone outside to play even if he was alone, and that wasn't strange then. Both parents knew he played with the older kids (I assumed they were still kids, like maybe 10 or 12--the kids involved in the real murder were brothers and the older one was 10). Iirc, it was implied that they'd probably used the house to meet in before. The wouldn't really have needed to sneak out during the day.

Of course, one would also ask where were the parents of the toddler? Did they pick him up in the park and walk him away with his mother frantically searching for him?

[DangerousMinds]

It was normal in the 70s and 80s for kids to be playing in the neighborhood unsupervised. We all did it.

[Cheezwiz]

5 hours ago, cinsbythesea said:

It's a real shame that they stopped investigating the child murders after they took Williams into custody.  I haven't had a chance to look it up - but did the murders stop after he was arrested?  I'm pretty sure they did?

As far as I know - the murders did stop, which is why many people believe Williams was the culprit, on top of the other forensic evidence that connected him to victims. From what I also understand, any new bits of evidence that emerged following his arrest only served to further strengthen the case against him rather than cast doubt on his guilt. He may have been taken off the streets, but it's very sad for the parents they they never saw justice for their children.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Cheezwiz

[swanpride]

If I were a parent I just wanted confirmation that he really was it, so get some closure.

Wait, is the case with the toddler bound to the cross a real one? Anyway, that Brians is allowed to run around with other kids in the neighbourhood isn't really that unusual. Remember, that was before the internet, and before it was typical to fill the schedule of a child with all kind of "activities". Having children outside playing with each other in a supposedly save neighbourhood was pretty much standard back then.

[paramitch]

To echo @MaggieG and @festivus,  I liked the little humorous moments too -- Holden and Tench waking each other up, slyly, while on stakeout was really funny. As was Tench instantly chowing down on the fast food the suspect handed them.

On 8/28/2019 at 11:00 AM, Roseanna said:

By saying that Holden identied with the killers, I don't mean that he identified with their murders, but that he had some attitudes with them, like misogony, albeit of course in lesser degree.

If Holden really succeeded to compartmentalize, why did become impotent when his girlfriend had highheels and, before all, why did he then blame her. His comment "it's not you" could be interpreted meaning "you behave like a slut and I don't like it".

And there were also the ugly scene where Holden got confession by decribing 12-year-old girl ripe enough for sex and even alluring the culprit to it? Why didn't Holden got and vomit afterwards? Instead, he felt victorious.

Oh, I definitely agree that subtle sexism and even misogyny is part of what the show is deliberately presenting to us, both as a product of the times, as something part of our culture that, at its extreme, creates these killers, etc.

My saying Holden compartmentalizes doesn't mean he was 100% able to divide his emotions and reactions all the time. The scene with his girlfriend was one in which a sexy moment for him suddenly plummeted horribly when he flashed back on the killer they had just interviewed. It's not really surprising that he immediately had to back off, and I believed him when he said "It's not you." I definitely don't see it as slut-shaming her, although it wouldn't be totally out of character, either, for either Holden or the times. 

As far as that interrogation, what Holden said was horrifying. And he knew it. But that's what cops sometimes have to do. I have a longtime friend who's a homicide cop, and forming a bond with the killer, however fake, can help weave the noose that catches them. It's a conundrum the show "Homicide: Life on the Street" presented beautifully as well. Holden didn't go vomit after he did that because it worked exactly as he knew it would. He caught the bad guy.

16 hours ago, AZChristian said:

I love Bill, but I'm on Nancy's side in the "what do we do about Brian" discussion.

He is gone 5/7 of the week.  Even though he cares, he has a totally separate situation (his job) which demands his attention and energy the majority of his time. 

Nancy has no break from her situation.  Her son is a pariah in the neighborhood, at school and (probably) at their church.  Her job as a realtor is probably in the toilet because everyone knows about Brian.  

Bill picked Brian up from school ONE DAY, and even he saw the other kids avoiding him, talking about him, and pointing at him on his way out of school.  Nancy sees this EVERY day.  She feels his ostracism vicariously.

When Nancy has mentioned to Bill that maybe they should move to a new neighborhood for a new start, Bill just shuts down.  His mind is made up.  He won't even consider it.  No wonder Nancy feels trapped.  SHE is the one living with this all day, every day.  Bill gets a physical break 5 days a week, and has been seen to tell her when he gets back in town, "I'm wiped out.  Let me get some sleep and we'll talk tomorrow."  She wants . . . NEEDS . . . to talk NOW.

Back in the days when this is set, I remember hearing discussions of divorce.  It was often said that if a woman left the guy one chair, a bed, one pot, and one set of eating utensils and a plate, she had fulfilled her obligation.  When I saw that she had cleaned the house out except for a few things, it took me back mentally to those days.

This is a bad situation, no doubt about it.  But Nancy is suffering as much as Brian.  Others can take over some of Bill's work responsibilities (and maybe he needs to recognize that), but I don't think anyone can take over his responsibility to his family.

JMO.

I agree that it's too easy to blame Nancy, and I totally admit that I have been unfair to her too.

My problem is the way all those scenes were written, presented, and acted. Instead of presenting Nancy's situation to us with any kind of empathy or warmth, there was no actual 'arc' there for me. She began this season as  judgmental, cold stereotypical shrew, and that's how she ended the season as well. As I mentioned before, I also badly wanted to see Nancy show some humanity -- some warmth, some actual varying emotions, some need to connect with her husband. We see Tench trying to meet her halfway (I disagree that he shut her down about moving -- he asked her if they could think about it when she was basically going, "WE CAN BE OUT IN SIX WEEKS").

Instead, almost all their scenes were repetitive presentations of Nancy accusing or haranguing Tench. I feel terrible for singling out the actress -- especially as I can equally blame the directors and writers -- but it was tiring and tone-deaf to me. I wanted to sympathize with Nancy, but she gave me nothing. We do also see Tench struggling to do his part, to attend the meetings, to bond with his son, to be supportive to her. Of course he should have done more, and I wish he'd helped her get more support, but I just don't think the show cared enough to present her -- or Brian -- as anything but expressionless cliches.

15 hours ago, Roseanna said:

The most important aspect is that the way Nancy acted was extremely harmful to Brian. Bill wasn't an abusive husband and father from whom a wife must flee in secret when he is away.

I get this -- I definitely felt Bill was thinking about Brian's big picture, and keeping things familiar, although I do think he should have seen his wife's side once he saw Brian at school, and how both Brian and his wife were being isolated by their community.

15 hours ago, AZChristian said:

So Nancy and Brian have to live in isolation until Bill is willing to make his family a priority over his job and "consider" moving?  Wouldn't it be better - if they're going to be without him all week - to be in a place where they are not ostracized?  They were seeing the psychiatrist together; why would it be so awful to ask about moving sooner, rather than later?

I definitely agree that it should have been a conversation, and was a worthy discussion. I just had issues with how Nancy presented it. But then, I have issues with every single scene with the character. The actress had permanent bitchface and her performance erased any potential empathy I could feel for the character.

12 hours ago, festivus said:

I am too even though I can't stand Nancy and I think the actress is not good. I think Bill has his head in the sand even more than she does about the Brian situation precisely because of what he does for a living. You could tell he was having a real hard time dealing with the fact that his son could have anything in common with these killers he was interviewing. Meanwhile Nancy is at home all the time with this child and she can feel how things are just not going to get better in this situation and she feels like she has no support. I've been there (not with a disturbed child) but with not having support. I put my foot down about it and said basically either shit or get off the pot, so I can really identify with her side of it.

I just mourn the fact that instead of a scene of the two of them genuinely talking about the situation, and with her showing real emotion and warmth, and Bill responding, we just got scene after scene of her talking AT him, not with him.

Even in the scene where she's had enough, and the dishes are dirty, when Bill finds her outside she just talks away from him, not even looking at him, for most of the scene. It's just such an odd choice and fatally distanced me from the character. It was very hard for me to feel anything for her, even when I wanted to empathize with her situation.

[Roseanna]

2 minutes ago, paramitch said:

I believed him when he said "It's not you." I definitely don't see it as slut-shaming her, although it wouldn't be totally out of character, either, for either Holden or the times. 

Yes, it's possible that by saying "It's not you" that his impotence wasn't caused by anything the girlfriend's did or wore. But her words made clear that she interpreted his words to mean "These clothes don't suit you and I don't like you when you wear them". The crux of the matter is that he didn't correct her interpretation by telling the real reason or at least by saying "This has nothing to do with you, I am just weary because of my work".  

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, paramitch said:

Even in the scene where she's had enough, and the dishes are dirty, when Bill finds her outside she just talks away from him, not even looking at him, for most of the scene. It's just such an odd choice and fatally distanced me from the character. It was very hard for me to feel anything for her, even when I wanted to empathize with her situation.

To me the dirty dishes were a sign that Nancy was deeply depressed. Even her talking to him while looking away, speaking in fairly flat tones, all that tracks with serious depression (at least my own experience with it).

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Yes, it's possible that by saying "It's not you" that his impotence wasn't caused by anything the girlfriend's did or wore. But her words made clear that she interpreted his words to mean "These clothes don't suit you and I don't like you when you wear them". The crux of the matter is that he didn't correct her interpretation by telling the real reason or at least by saying "This has nothing to do with you, I am just weary because of my work".  

I re-watched the scene because I remember that my response was that Holden was clearly saying his problem was Debbie. So this is the dialogue that happens after they've had some foreplay, Holden's been stopped by the shoes, clearly isn't getting aroused, and they sit up:

Debbie: "You okay?"

Holden shakes his head, pauses,

"This..." he pauses again "It's just not you."

With the "just" in there, I don't see that there's any room to interpret that as Holden telling her his impotence wasn't related to her. The "just" makes it accusatory, at least for me. And Debbie's response of "Yeah, Holden, that's the point," seems a totally justified interpretation.

[leighdear]

Yeah, I grew up in the 60's and 70's.  Packs of kids of various ages roaming neighborhoods all day was no big deal.  Our parents didn't know where we were every minute and we had plenty of places to hide out. 

Unless we were TWO years old.  That's still diapers and pacifiers for millions of kids.  I just don't get how a parent doesn't know exactly who has their toddler.

And of course I'm aware child abductions happen, but these are kids on this show, not adults with planning and critical thinking skills.    

[paramitch]

On 8/30/2019 at 1:20 AM, Roseanna said:

Yes, it's possible that by saying "It's not you" that his impotence wasn't caused by anything the girlfriend's did or wore. But her words made clear that she interpreted his words to mean "These clothes don't suit you and I don't like you when you wear them". The crux of the matter is that he didn't correct her interpretation by telling the real reason or at least by saying "This has nothing to do with you, I am just weary because of my work".  

I don't have time to go back and find/rewatch the scene, so I will concede that perhaps he was more jerky than I remember there. I do remember thinking he was being an ass, but I also did feel that it was more than "I'm tired from work" and more "I'm really terrified of my own mind right now and I can't explain to you why."

On 8/30/2019 at 7:18 AM, Clanstarling said:

To me the dirty dishes were a sign that Nancy was deeply depressed. Even her talking to him while looking away, speaking in fairly flat tones, all that tracks with serious depression (at least my own experience with it).

I re-watched the scene because I remember that my response was that Holden was clearly saying his problem was Debbie. So this is the dialogue that happens after they've had some foreplay, Holden's been stopped by the shoes, clearly isn't getting aroused, and they sit up:

Debbie: "You okay?"

Holden shakes his head, pauses,

"This..." he pauses again "It's just not you."

With the "just" in there, I don't see that there's any room to interpret that as Holden telling her his impotence wasn't related to her. The "just" makes it accusatory, at least for me. And Debbie's response of "Yeah, Holden, that's the point," seems a totally justified interpretation.

I agree that Nancy was depressed. But speaking technically, her actress plays all of her scenes the exact same way, with only minute variations. Clenched jaw, cold stare, accusing/angry voice. Even before Brian was revealed to have taken part in the death of the child.

So I resented having to watch all of her scenes with Bill while trying to interpret what they were *trying* to present, because what I was actually seeing was just more of the same.

If Nancy had been shown to be a believable person before that scene -- someone who was expressive, shown to be battling her own hurdles and reacting to them (worry, fear, tiredness, etc), then I would have been cheering for her in that scene with Bill.

But I realize YMMV, so I'll stop beating this poor dead horse at this point.

On that scene, to echo my comment above, I remember that Holden was certainly frequently rude and judgmental of his girlfriend last season (as unpleasant as I often found her to be), so I may be misremembering that instance and giving Holden too much credit there. I did find it interesting and an important plot point -- an aspect of how agents like Holden must compartmentalize and how sometimes that simply can't work all the time.

Thanks for the discussion as always!

[methodwriter85]

On 8/28/2019 at 1:33 AM, paramitch said:

And the concierge's reaction in the finale felt like a retcon to me, when he had already shared several of his ideas and theories and she hadn't shown anywhere near that hostility, and had seemed to respect him. Especially when SHE brought him into the process and he was never less than sincere about truly wanting to help. (It was a shame to me, and I felt the actress, who was warm and wonderful, was ultimately wasted, becoming just another antagonist.)

You kind of nailed what bugged me so much about this arc. It reduced her into "The Angry Black Woman" stereotype, absolutely convinced whitey is out to get them, and she should have been more than that.

Then when she said the line about how Wayne was young enough he could practically be a victim, I thought to myself, "Yeah, that made it easier for him to lure kids into his car."

[Clanstarling]

6 hours ago, paramitch said:

I don't have time to go back and find/rewatch the scene, so I will concede that perhaps he was more jerky than I remember there. I do remember thinking he was being an ass, but I also did feel that it was more than "I'm tired from work" and more "I'm really terrified of my own mind right now and I can't explain to you why."

I agree that Nancy was depressed. But speaking technically, her actress plays all of her scenes the exact same way, with only minute variations. Clenched jaw, cold stare, accusing/angry voice. Even before Brian was revealed to have taken part in the death of the child.

So I resented having to watch all of her scenes with Bill while trying to interpret what they were *trying* to present, because what I was actually seeing was just more of the same.

If Nancy had been shown to be a believable person before that scene -- someone who was expressive, shown to be battling her own hurdles and reacting to them (worry, fear, tiredness, etc), then I would have been cheering for her in that scene with Bill.

But I realize YMMV, so I'll stop beating this poor dead horse at this point.

On that scene, to echo my comment above, I remember that Holden was certainly frequently rude and judgmental of his girlfriend last season (as unpleasant as I often found her to be), so I may be misremembering that instance and giving Holden too much credit there. I did find it interesting and an important plot point -- an aspect of how agents like Holden must compartmentalize and how sometimes that simply can't work all the time.

Thanks for the discussion as always!

I absolutely agree that she's played the character pretty much the same way. I think it's the director's/showrunner's choice since my feeling is that's pretty much true for most of the characters. So my sympathy is more with her circumstances than liking her (which I don't). That being said, I didn't like the son's story - it seemed hammered in and anvilish.

I think the director/showrunner is far too subtle, and expecting us to fill in blanks without sufficient information (the angry black mother is a case in point). And we fill in the blanks differently, or are just damned frustrated that there are blanks.  I don't like everything laid out - but I do want something to work with.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Clanstarling

[Hava]

On 8/19/2019 at 6:10 AM, marys1000 said:

All those neighbors and kids that hadn't ever been talked to, could that be real?  Geezus!

Ugh yes. This season was disappointing for me based on that alone. I'm not sure what happened in real life, but on the show it seemed like the investigators would get important information about the kids but never follow up! Like, wouldn't they show Wayne's picture to the kids in the neighborhood and ask about him?? Or maybe ask the guy form the recording studio if Wayne had ever brought one of the murdered kids there??

[Cheezwiz]

12 hours ago, Hava said:

I'm not sure what happened in real life, but on the show it seemed like the investigators would get important information about the kids but never follow up! Like, wouldn't they show Wayne's picture to the kids in the neighborhood and ask about him?? Or maybe ask the guy form the recording studio if Wayne had ever brought one of the murdered kids there??

Yes, this was frustrating and I wish the show had addressed this more. Clearly proper police work hadn't been done prior to the Feds arriving, but it was only touched upon briefly. So many of these kids knew each other, there HAD to be some commonalities they could identify, had someone been doing proper investigative work.

Although it was likely a fictionalized interaction, I also wish Holden had been shown attempting to explain to the STOP mothers and the hotel concierge WHY Williams was a prime suspect, and that they had also been doing fruitless surveillance on the Klan simultaneously. They may not have accepted the info, but at least it would have been presented to them to consider. Instead, he just declared Williams as culprit, case closed, no real discussion. As mentioned above, the way the show was written made the mothers look more like one-sided caricatures, rather than people with real grievances.

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

Instead, he just declared Williams as culprit, case closed, no real discussion. 

Actually Holden believed that the local police would continue the investigation and that Wayne would eventually be charged also with childrens' murders.

[Cheezwiz]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Actually Holden believed that the local police would continue the investigation and that Wayne would eventually be charged also with childrens' murders.

Yes, that too - he assumed that everything else would fall into place afterward and more charges would come, but instead the other investigators were pulled.

[bosawks]

I don’t know how I feel about BTK bookending the season but I do know it’s fucking creepy.

[mledawn]

3 hours ago, bosawks said:

I don’t know how I feel about BTK bookending the season but I do know it’s fucking creepy.

Agreed - plus Peter Gabriel's Intruder playing out the credits definitely added to that. I enjoy the Primus cover of that song almost a bit more, but another solid musical outtro.

Bill's calm demeanor could frustrate someone right out the door, tbh. What's happening with Brian is a Big Deal and Bill is always just so damned calm.
I recognise that is a good character trait in a person, but I can also see how Nancy would be exasperated with the endless (seemingly) even keel.

[Roseanna]

On 9/3/2019 at 5:59 AM, mledawn said:

Bill's calm demeanor could frustrate someone right out the door, tbh. What's happening with Brian is a Big Deal and Bill is always just so damned calm.
I recognise that is a good character trait in a person, but I can also see how Nancy would be exasperated with the endless (seemingly) even keel.

I can't understand what's wrong in being calm? The best thing that a parent can do is to keep calm during the crisis for only then he can support his or her child.

It must have been very frightening to Brian when Bill lost his nerves with him in the restaurant. 

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I can't understand what's wrong in being calm? The best thing that a parent can do is to keep calm during the crisis for only then he can support his or her child.

It must have been very frightening to Brian when Bill lost his nerves with him in the restaurant. 

There's nothing wrong with it - it is, in fact as you say - the best thing. But when something this huge is happening, and you're feeling overwhelmed and anxious, you want at least some of that anxiety and stress validated by your partner so you don't feel so alone. You don't want your partner unhinged, but at least emotional enough (or connected to you enough) to feel like you're in the same boat.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Clanstarling