S02.E07: Episode 7

[Bort]

Quote

Hitting a dead end, Holden suggests a bold plan to draw the killer out. Bill's family faces more scrutiny. Wendy chafes as her job begins to shift.

Airdate: August 16, 2019

[patty1h]

Can someone please explain to me the rationale behind having that big white cross present during the silent procession for the dead children?   I must have zoned out because I didn't grasp the idea around it.  Watching Holden building it frantically and running through back alleys with it seemed to have no payoff.  The scene ended with him and the women who marched in a deadpan staring contest.   What am I missing?  Thanks

EDIT:  I got the answer to my questions.

Edited August 20, 2019 by patty1h

[Portia]

On 8/20/2019 at 2:44 PM, patty1h said:

EDIT:  I got the answer to my questions.

By all means, please do share, because I was bewildered by the ending, too!

[patty1h]

Here's the explanation I found on a different site --made things clearer for me:

Holden wanted to put up the crosses so they could use them as traps for the killer, since he had figured out this season that serial killers with sexual fixations love to come back to the scenes of their murders (or their abandoning of corpses--both Ed Kemper and David Berkowitz admitted this to him) and relive the thrill of the murders. So he thought if they left crosses, and then had the march make pilgrimages to the crosses along the way, they could keep tabs on the sites and see who came back to visit the crosses.

The woman leading the Atlanta mothers of dead children was willing to go along with this, but she wasn't that into it as an idea. He had so much trouble with red tape that finally he had to build the crosses himself at the last minute, and was racing to get them in place before the march passed by the sites (he wanted the killer, whom he thought would be following the march of in it, would then see the crosses). He raced to get the one up in front of the church, but as the lead mother came up with the march behind her, she looked at him with contempt because for her the march was really about honoring the dead children and the grief of their mothers and families--she did not think it would be effective in catching the killer.

The crosses had to be built to certain city specifications in order for them to remain in place, which is why he had so much trouble building them in time.

[sistermagpie]

50 minutes ago, patty1h said:

The woman leading the Atlanta mothers of dead children was willing to go along with this, but she wasn't that into it as an idea. He had so much trouble with red tape that finally he had to build the crosses himself at the last minute, and was racing to get them in place before the march passed by the sites (he wanted the killer, whom he thought would be following the march of in it, would then see the crosses). He raced to get the one up in front of the church, but as the lead mother came up with the march behind her, she looked at him with contempt because for her the march was really about honoring the dead children and the grief of their mothers and families--she did not think it would be effective in catching the killer. 

Also not great optics to have a white guy with a cross shoving his way through a grieving black community to get to the front.

[Portia]

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Also not great optics to have a white guy with a cross shoving his way through a grieving black community to get to the front.

YES. I was afraid he was going to be taken for a Klan member.

[swanpride]

The issue was that the march was supposed to make a big deal around the crosses in order to make them important in the mind of the killer. Since they arrived too late (except for the big one) and the march leader wasn't convinced about it anyway, she ensured that the cross was largely ignored, and the plan failed.

[Melina22]

A few things are really bothering me with the season so far. 

First, I'm just not enjoying Mrs. Tench as a character. Between the horrifying wig, the Stepford-perfect 70s house and wardrobe, and her mostly blank stare, I find her grating, and she doesn't resonate with me as a real person. (Except for the scene when she first hears there was a body in the house. That felt unusually realistic to me.) Similarly, it's hard to sympathize with Brian and his parents when as noted, he's been presented from the beginning as a mute Damian figure. 

Second, and I don't know if this is a trope or because I'm Canadian, but why on American TV is every single person questioned by police, either informally at their door, or in the station, invariably rude, hostile, combative or dismissive? Is no one interested, curious, scared and/or cooperative? Or just plain civil and polite? 

When it comes to the mothers in Atlanta, why are they always so rude to Holden? Is this supposed to be realistic? I get why they're furious with authorities, and suspicious. They have good reasons. But Holden has an excellent track record of being on their side and doing his best to help them. Why are they still answering everything he says with anger and sarcasm? Is this just bad writing? These women are doing everything they can to make something happen, so why would they keep alienating one of the (allegedly) few law enforcement people who's on their side? 

I realize it seems ridiculous to complain people in a show about serial killers aren't warm and fuzzy enough, but I'd like to see a little more realism. And realism isn't just about people being ruthless and rude. Real people are kind and polite all the time. (Maybe not in prison though.😢 ) 

[sinkwriter]

I think they see Holden (and all the authorities) as untrustworthy and "too little, too late." That everything gets tied up in politics and bureaucracy, and no one gives a shit about these poor children who are going missing and getting murdered. She doesn't know Holden, she has no history with him, and so far he's only gotten involved when the Bureau let him get involved. We know that Holden is driven for answers, but that's not anything these mothers can see from their end of things. And the deaths keep happening, and no one knows what's being done. It probably feels like nothing's being done. They just keep seeing more children disappearing. So I would imagine they're pretty angry and see this as another situation where no one cares enough because it's not white kids going missing. What's really hideous is that this kind of attitude (the politicians and the cops, not the mothers) is still going on today. There are so many situations where things seem to get taken much more seriously if the victim involved is a (straight) white male. There are times when that mother was quiet and polite (as best as she could be under the circumstances); she even shook Holden's hand, even though she definitely hesitated. But I can't blame her for being angry and demanding answers. 

Side note: what I'm curious about is what Jim's got cooking in his brain after talking to that mother whose kid knew almost all the victims. He seemed to find that curious, which makes me wonder if it could be another situation where the kid got groomed for bringing victims to the perpetrator. Until "Pat-man" lost his usefulness, perhaps? Because he's not missing; he was killed too, right? 

Edited August 22, 2019 by sinkwriter

[swanpride]

One also has to consider the time frame here. We see those events happening pretty close together, but what we are actually seeing is a time span of, I think, over a year between the time he speaks to them the first time and when it "ends". By this time the number of victims has nearly doubled. And Holden isn't just hopelessly naive by acting as if racism isn't a thing/problem because he himself has never experiences it, he is also constantly excusing the shoddy work of the local police. We know that he isn't pleased with what he sees, but those mothers don't know that. They just hear him making promises he doesn't keep.

[tennisgurl]

I snickered when Holden asked if they should ask the KKK where they get their crosses. Holden is just so frustrated by all of this red tape and the lack of help he is getting  from the city, it feels like he might have another panic attack any second.

It seems like Jim has an idea that all of the kids could be connected, I wonder what he is thinking with that?

Poor Wendy is getting benched by that skeevy asshole boss, and is now stuck in the basement again, even though she proved she could handle the interviews. I think the caseload plus the pressure of finding interesting people to talk to to keep people interested and the child murders are getting to the whole team.

[Efzee]

19 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

I think they see Holden (and all the authorities) as untrustworthy and "too little, too late." That everything gets tied up in politics and bureaucracy, and no one gives a shit about these poor children who are going missing and getting murdered. She doesn't know Holden, she has no history with him, and so far he's only gotten involved when the Bureau let him get involved. We know that Holden is driven for answers, but that's not anything these mothers can see from their end of things. And the deaths keep happening, and no one knows what's being done. It probably feels like nothing's being done. They just keep seeing more children disappearing. So I would imagine they're pretty angry and see this as another situation where no one cares enough because it's not white kids going missing. What's really hideous is that this kind of attitude (the politicians and the cops, not the mothers) is still going on today. There are so many situations where things seem to get taken much more seriously if the victim involved is a (straight) white male. There are times when that mother was quiet and polite (as best as she could be under the circumstances); she even shook Holden's hand, even though she definitely hesitated. But I can't blame her for being angry and demanding answers. 

Side note: what I'm curious about is what Jim's got cooking in his brain after talking to that mother whose kid knew almost all the victims. He seemed to find that curious, which makes me wonder if it could be another situation where the kid got groomed for bringing victims to the perpetrator. Until "Pat-man" lost his usefulness, perhaps? Because he's not missing; he was killed too, right? 

It probably didn't help that he asked "what are these two?" when asking the mother for help and she had to inform him that those two pins represented the places where two kids went missing. That wouldn't give me any confidence in his ability to solve the crimes, if I were her.

Not to mention he told her they would errect crosses as a memorial, rather than ask or say "we think it might be a good idea to..." and she clearly realized it would double (or function mostly) as a place for the killer to remember the killings. He seems to have forgotten that one of her own children was also killed and as such, might not be comfortable with that idea.

[paramitch]

On 8/22/2019 at 12:36 PM, Melina22 said:

First, I'm just not enjoying Mrs. Tench as a character. Between the horrifying wig, the Stepford-perfect 70s house and wardrobe, and her mostly blank stare, I find her grating, and she doesn't resonate with me as a real person. (Except for the scene when she first hears there was a body in the house. That felt unusually realistic to me.) Similarly, it's hard to sympathize with Brian and his parents when as noted, he's been presented from the beginning as a mute Damian figure. 

When it comes to the mothers in Atlanta, why are they always so rude to Holden? Is this supposed to be realistic? I get why they're furious with authorities, and suspicious. They have good reasons. But Holden has an excellent track record of being on their side and doing his best to help them. Why are they still answering everything he says with anger and sarcasm? Is this just bad writing? These women are doing everything they can to make something happen, so why would they keep alienating one of the (allegedly) few law enforcement people who's on their side? 

I love that you brought these up. They've really been a factor in my not enjoying this season as much. To further your point, Tench's wife is terribly acted, has a seriously horrific wig, and always seems like she's self-righteously enacting a preachy afterschool special moment from a Very Special Episode in the 1990s. I never believe anything she says or does, and the writing admittedly doesn't help. She comes across like a narrow-minded cliched harpy.

However, I have to lay blame with the writers here, because Wendy's girlfriend also comes across here like a needlessly passive-aggressive jerk. So many people on this show are, yes, subtle and psychologically driven, but I'd love to see a wife or partner who wasn't actually a passive-aggressive, overly (unrealistically) judgmental and unrelenting asshole.

As far as Wendy, at this point I don't see why she's still with her girlfriend (I'm so bummed because I liked her originally). But every single thing Wendy does results in arch, passive sneers from the girlfriend -- about her life, her work, her history, her freaking apartment, her kindness in cooking her breakfast, etc. The girlfriend just comes across like one of those people you date while walking on constant eggshells, who withholds information while digging and judging -- then you end up broken-hearted when they invariably leave. Gah.

I'm honestly disappointed in Tench's entire storyline. He was one of my favorite things about season 1, so to bench him with this weird and overly on-the-nose storyline just feels like a waste to me. He now has very little connection to Ford and barely any to Wendy, and the whole unit just feels extraneous.

Further, the focus on the Atlanta child murders feels equally frustrating because history tells us they won't be much help there. 

 

Edited August 24, 2019 by paramitch
oops fixed a repetition

[Melina22]

paramitch, I couldn't agree more with your entire post. Beautifully put. 

[Sakura12]

On 8/22/2019 at 2:36 PM, Melina22 said:

When it comes to the mothers in Atlanta, why are they always so rude to Holden? Is this supposed to be realistic? I get why they're furious with authorities, and suspicious. They have good reasons. But Holden has an excellent track record of being on their side and doing his best to help them. Why are they still answering everything he says with anger and sarcasm? Is this just bad writing? These women are doing everything they can to make something happen, so why would they keep alienating one of the (allegedly) few law enforcement people who's on their side? 

For me I think it's because Holden lacks empathy. He talks like he cares but I'm sure that mother can clearly see he's more interested in the murderer than the murdered children and their grieving mothers. Yes, he's trying to catch the killer but he never shows that he cares about what happened to them. That would make me suspicious of him. He doesn't see or care that he's using them to further his agenda. He does that with everyone that's why they all find him so off-putting. It's not just the mothers, the other cops, FBI, Tench and Wendy act like that around him too. 

Seeing Tench's son makes me think that's exactly what Holden was like as a kid. A creepy emotionless kid that lacks social skills. I'm surprised none of the FBI with their criteria for serial killer doesn't think that it matches Holden. The only outlier is he has a steady job. Maybe they will figure that out when they realize that some can hold down jobs and have relationships because they can fake it. I suppose that's why he's so good at figuring them out, because he's like them. 

[swanpride]

Honestly, I first thought that Brian is autistic. Maybe he is.

[Melina22]

21 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Honestly, I first thought that Brian is autistic. Maybe he is.

Could be. Was that something that would have been diagnosed back then? 

[swanpride]

I admit, I have know idea...I think autism was first diagnosed in the last 1930s, but I am not sure how widespread the knowledge was. Plus, if he actually talks it might be a softer version which is harder to diagnose than the "savant and doesn't really talk to anyone" version of it.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, swanpride said:

Honestly, I first thought that Brian is autistic. Maybe he is.

I hooe not given where they went with the story. I wouldn't want them to suggest autism was connected to serial killers. I believe people with autistim do have empathy.

6 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Seeing Tench's son makes me think that's exactly what Holden was like as a kid. A creepy emotionless kid that lacks social skills. I'm surprised none of the FBI with their criteria for serial killer doesn't think that it matches Holden. The only outlier is he has a steady job. Maybe they will figure that out when they realize that some can hold down jobs and have relationships because they can fake it. I suppose that's why he's so good at figuring them out, because he's like them. 

I don't imagine him much like him at all, myself. Holden seems like he would more likely put people off as a child same as he does now, by coming across as a know it all. His social skills are lacking in situations he doesn't value, it seems to me, while being good in others. Sometimes his emotions are too obvious.

Brian doesn't have any interests that I remember or any noticeable personality beyond not talking it seems. Wendy's often there explaining how he feels without us really being able to tell if she's right or not.

[Melina22]

22 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't imagine him much like him at all, myself. Holden seems like he would more likely put people off as a child same as he does now, by coming across as a know it all. His social skills are lacking in situations he doesn't value, it seems to me, while being good in others. Sometimes his emotions are too obvious.

Brian doesn't have any interests that I remember or any noticeable personality beyond not talking it seems. Wendy's often there explaining how he feels without us really being able to tell if she's right or not.

It's true. I found Holden a very sympathetic character this season. He's definitely a little different, hyperfocused, without the best social skills, but not cold or sociopathic. At least that's how I read him. 

I actually find Carr more confusing. She makes Holden look fun and easygoing. She almost never smiles. Her apartment looks like a store display. She has almost zero sense of humour. She's every bit as odd as Holden, and yet somehow I find her less appealing. 

Brian is just a cipher. The only time he seemed remotely human was when he was flipping burgers with his dad. Nancy generally looks like an android in a bad wig. 

Then there's the new boss. Was he on Fringe? There's something otherworldly about him too. Hmmm. I'm sensing a pattern here. 

[Clanstarling]

On 8/23/2019 at 7:57 AM, tennisgurl said:

It seems like Jim has an idea that all of the kids could be connected, I wonder what he is thinking with that?

The fact that so may of the kids know the other kids highlights the lack of real investigation by the police department, and it makes me wonder why the mothers haven't been bringing that up to them - regardless of whether or not they asked (not blaming the mothers, it just seems strange that no one would bring this up).

By knowing at least some of the boys knew each other, a thorough investigation could find where their paths intersected - and provide some information on how the killer might have gotten to them. I was most intrigued by the one boy saying something like "he's closing in" or "he's getting closer."

11 hours ago, paramitch said:

I love that you brought these up. They've really been a factor in my not enjoying this season as much. To further your point, Tench's wife is terribly acted, has a seriously horrific wig, and always seems like she's self-righteously enacting a preachy afterschool special moment from a Very Special Episode in the 1990s. I never believe anything she says or does, and the writing admittedly doesn't help. She comes across like a narrow-minded cliched harpy.

However, I have to lay blame with the writers here, because Wendy's girlfriend also comes across here like a needlessly passive-aggressive jerk. So many people on this show are, yes, subtle and psychologically driven, but I'd love to see a wife or partner who wasn't actually a passive-aggressive, overly (unrealistically) judgmental and unrelenting asshole.

As far as Wendy, at this point I don't see why she's still with her girlfriend (I'm so bummed because I liked her originally). But every single thing Wendy does results in arch, passive sneers from the girlfriend -- about her life, her work, her history, her freaking apartment, her kindness in cooking her breakfast, etc. The girlfriend just comes across like one of those people you date while walking on constant eggshells, who withholds information while digging and judging -- then you end up broken-hearted when they invariably leave. Gah.

I'm honestly disappointed in Tench's entire storyline. He was one of my favorite things about season 1, so to bench him with this weird and overly on-the-nose storyline just feels like a waste to me. He now has very little connection to Ford and barely any to Wendy, and the whole unit just feels extraneous.

Further, the focus on the Atlanta child murders feels equally frustrating because history tells us they won't be much help there. 

 

I don't find Wendy any more interesting or obnoxious than her girlfriend. I see no reason why either of them would like each other - they don't seem to have any interests in common, and I don't think they have any chemistry. I didn't believe their flirtation at all. Then again, I felt the same about Holden and his girlfriend last season.  Everyone seems pretty dispassionate - it's hard for me to connect with any of them. With the exception of Tench - and I'm pretty sure it's the actor who moves me, rather than the writing and direction. I don't like his storyline. I understand why they're doing it - but think it's a bit much.

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

I actually find Carr more confusing. She makes Holden look fun and easygoing. She almost never smiles. Her apartment looks like a store display. She has almost zero sense of humour. She's every bit as odd as Holden, and yet somehow I find her less appealing.

I think maybe we expect women to be friendlier, even if the men around them aren't any different. We're just not used to women on television being so somber and repressed.

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

Then there's the new boss. Was he on Fringe? There's something otherworldly about him too. Hmmm. I'm sensing a pattern here. 

Yes he was. He was the Observer.

[swanpride]

I like Wendy...because I get her. She is lonely in this new city, the new job while worthwhile isn't exactly panning out like she hoped with her boss basically pimping her out and always being condescending towards her, and her being lesbian makes it double difficult on top of all this.  

[mledawn]

3 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I don't find Wendy any more interesting or obnoxious than her girlfriend. I see no reason why either of them would like each other - they don't seem to have any interests in common, and I don't think they have any chemistry. I didn't believe their flirtation at all. Then again, I felt the same about Holden and his girlfriend last season.  Everyone seems pretty dispassionate - it's hard for me to connect with any of them.

I have honestly fast forwarded through the scenes between Wendy and her gf. 

[Melina22]

3 hours ago, mledawn said:

I have honestly fast forwarded through the scenes between Wendy and her gf. 

Me too, for the reason Clanstarling mentions. Zero chemistry or believability. It feels like filler. 

[Roseanna]

15 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

For me I think it's because Holden lacks empathy. He talks like he cares but I'm sure that mother can clearly see he's more interested in the murderer than the murdered children and their grieving mothers. Yes, he's trying to catch the killer but he never shows that he cares about what happened to them. That would make me suspicious of him. He doesn't see or care that he's using them to further his agenda. He does that with everyone that's why they all find him so off-putting. It's not just the mothers, the other cops, FBI, Tench and Wendy act like that around him too. 

8 hours ago, Melina22 said:

It's true. I found Holden a very sympathetic character this season. He's definitely a little different, hyperfocused, without the best social skills, but not cold or sociopathic. At least that's how I read him. 

I actually find Carr more confusing. She makes Holden look fun and easygoing. She almost never smiles. Her apartment looks like a store display. She has almost zero sense of humour. She's every bit as odd as Holden, and yet somehow I find her less appealing. 

6 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I think maybe we expect women to be friendlier, even if the men around them aren't any different. We're just not used to women on television being so somber and repressed.

3 hours ago, swanpride said:

I like Wendy...because I get her. She is lonely in this new city, the new job while worthwhile isn't exactly panning out like she hoped with her boss basically pimping her out and always being condescending towards her, and her being lesbian makes it double difficult on top of all this.  

Holden has such a nice and open face, so one tends to be believe that he is also inside what he looks like. But like Sakura12 says, he lacks empathy towards the mothers. In addition, he draws conclusions straightaway without collecting information first and then he is  too sure that his profile is absolutely right. Best cops are open-minded.  

Plus, I am not sure that other defects in Holden's character that were shown are in S1 are vanished such like that, perhaps he only conceals them. I mean f.ex. his belief that the end justifies any means. 

As for Wendy, Melina22's opinion reminds me of what Holden's girlfriend said in S1: that women who don't smile are regarded "angry". No doubt Wendy has always had an objective and analysing brain and probably not been very social, but she has also developed a persona that leaves a lot of her self out in order to succeed in the academia and now in the FBI.  

Wendy isn't rigid but has really developed. She values Holden's insticts while being aware of his limitations. She doesn't use ordinary small talk (when she is was presented in S1, she didn't answer to Holden and her question about Tench's family was shown by him not to be her custom), but in her own way she showed empathy towards Holden when he told about his panic attack in S1 ep1. Yet it was just after his actions (he concealed the tape and lied to the ethical board) that had endangered not only their work and their jobs but her research. She had even more to loose than three agents.     

[Melina22]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Holden has such a nice and open face, so one tends to be believe that he is also inside what he looks like

This is such a good point! 

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

As for Wendy, Melina22's opinion reminds me of what Holden's girlfriend said in S1: that women who don't smile are regarded "angry

There is some truth to this, however my feelings about Wendy are based more on the fact that she doesn't project warmth in her overall demeanor.  Her somewhat expressionless face is certainly part of this, I suppose. I don't see her as angry as much as detached or disapproving.

She's similar to Holden in her lack of affect. (Which makes her similar to Kemper and nd Brian and Nancy.) 

Of course, all of this is sort of a game really, since we're not talking about real people. For some reason, the director of Manhunter seems to enjoy the "no affect" school of acting. Usually, in true crime shows I enjoy reading body language and microexpressions, trying to discern motive, personality and who's lying. I guess it's pointless when dealing with actors but I find myself doing it anyway! (I would say that a handful of truly fantastic actors are able to display the perfect body language and microexpressions for their characters, but it's rare. I remember a movie scene with Emma Stone once where you could see her face literally change colour, just from emotion. )

Oops. Sorry for the tangent. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Melina22

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, Melina22 said:

For some reason, the director of Manhunter seems to enjoy the "no affect" school of acting. Usually, in true crime shows I enjoy reading body language and microexpressions, trying to discern motive, personality and who's lying.

You're absolutely right about that. It occurred to me that except for the criminals they interview, most of the characters are subdued. I don't think it's an accident that all of the criminals have been in one way or another fascinating and emotional, whereas the people trying to learn about them aren't.

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, Melina22 said:

There is some truth to this, however my feelings about Wendy are based more on the fact that she doesn't project warmth in her overall demeanor.  Her somewhat expressionless face is certainly part of this, I suppose. I don't see her as angry as much as detached or disapproving.

She's similar to Holden in her lack of affect. (Which makes her similar to Kemper and nd Brian and Nancy.) 

Of course, all of this is sort of a game really, since we're not talking about real people. For some reason, the director of Manhunter seems to enjoy the "no affect" school of acting. Usually, in true crime shows I enjoy reading body language and microexpressions, trying to discern motive, personality and who's lying. I guess it's pointless when dealing with actors but I find myself doing it anyway! (I would say that a handful of truly fantastic actors are able to display the perfect body language and microexpressions for their characters, but it's rare. I remember a movie scene with Emma Stone once where you could see her face literally change colour, just from emotion. ) 

7 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

You're absolutely right about that. It occurred to me that except for the criminals they interview, most of the characters are subdued. I don't think it's an accident that all of the criminals have been in one way or another fascinating and emotional, whereas the people trying to learn about them aren't.

It's clear that interviewing criminals one must have a poker face. 

As for Wendy, I think it's fascinating when she sometimes makes some small movement. like looking down when the boss said that she and Holden can bring avec.

She isn't of course what we would call warm (if she was, she would have a different profession), but when she listened Tench tell about his son, it was clear that she cared.

Most of all, when sociopaths have no morality, already S1 showed that Wendy certainly has.  

[Melina22]

16 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Most of all, when sociopaths have no morality, already S1 showed that Wendy certainly has.  

I certainly agree she's not a sociopath. I also agree she's had moments of showing concern for others. It's funny - I loved her on Fringe, where her character was extremely tough and not overly emotional, but here I don't like her much.

You know, just like you said it was easy to misjudge Holden because of his open, friendly face, it's possible I dislike Wendy because she reminds me of someone cold and disapproving who I disliked. Wish I could think who. 

When it comes to interviewing criminals, the classic interview that comes to mind is the one where Russell Williams confessed. The interviewer was brilliant. Seemingly relaxed and friendly, yet respectful. He maintained completely calm for hours of questioning, gradually exerting more and more power, and didn't flinch whatsoever when Russell suddenly confessed. It was like a Master Class. I definitely wouldn't want to play poker against him. 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

9 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

You're absolutely right about that. It occurred to me that except for the criminals they interview, most of the characters are subdued. I don't think it's an accident that all of the criminals have been in one way or another fascinating and emotional, whereas the people trying to learn about them aren't.

It's clear that interviewing criminals one must have a poker face. 

As for Wendy, I think it's fascinating when she sometimes makes some small movement. like looking down when the boss said that she and Holden can bring avec.

She isn't of course what we would call warm (if she was, she would have a different profession), but when she listened Tench tell about his son, it was clear that she cared.

Interviews aside, the primary characters are subdued in all of their scenes. Which doesn't indicate a lack of emotion, simply a tendency to contain expressions of emotion, unlike the criminals they are studying. In Wendy's case, she has even more reason to be reserved at work. Both Tench and Wendy have quietly shown their emotional sides. Holden, not so much, but for me, anyway, his arrogance and single-mindedness gets in the way of me noticing much in the way of emotions on his part (except for the panic attacks).

Their quiet natures contrast with the criminals who like to talk, to be a little larger than life, and may also have heightened emotions during their interviews.

[paramitch]

On 8/24/2019 at 5:44 AM, Melina22 said:

paramitch, I couldn't agree more with your entire post. Beautifully put. 

That's so nice of you! Many thanks!

On 8/24/2019 at 6:59 AM, Sakura12 said:

For me I think it's because Holden lacks empathy. He talks like he cares but I'm sure that mother can clearly see he's more interested in the murderer than the murdered children and their grieving mothers. Yes, he's trying to catch the killer but he never shows that he cares about what happened to them. That would make me suspicious of him. He doesn't see or care that he's using them to further his agenda. He does that with everyone that's why they all find him so off-putting. It's not just the mothers, the other cops, FBI, Tench and Wendy act like that around him too. 

Seeing Tench's son makes me think that's exactly what Holden was like as a kid. A creepy emotionless kid that lacks social skills. I'm surprised none of the FBI with their criteria for serial killer doesn't think that it matches Holden. The only outlier is he has a steady job. Maybe they will figure that out when they realize that some can hold down jobs and have relationships because they can fake it. I suppose that's why he's so good at figuring them out, because he's like them. 

I really differ in my perception of Holden. Yes, I think he can be detached and socially awkward, but I also think his superpower is simply his gift for compartmentalization. He is able to separate what people do from who they are. He further complicates this in that he can be superb at reading minutiae even though he'll sometimes miss the best things about people right in front of his face (Tench often going to bat for him last season, or Wendy's incredible challenges).

But -- it also means he is at ease in talking to killers, not because he is like them, but because he is (1) fascinated and excited on a clinical level, and (2) I think, at least occasionally, interested in how, in the end, most of them are just people. Warped people, cruel people, but still capable of some terrible remains of sadness or suffering. Which was what was so horrifying about Kemper and even about Richard Speck (cuddling the bird and then killing it in a fit of rage, just to demonstrate his capacity for cruelty). Holden went to Kemper last season because he -- however momentarily -- felt pity and friendship for him, then was reminded by the man himself what Kemper actually is, and his horrified realization, to me, is still with him now. Holden may have thought he was flirting with darkness all last season, slightly contemptuous and above it all, but when he really looked into the abyss, I don't think he will ever be the same again. And he needed that fall from grace. I find him a lot warmer and more human this season.

On 8/24/2019 at 1:23 PM, sistermagpie said:

I don't imagine him much like him at all, myself. Holden seems like he would more likely put people off as a child same as he does now, by coming across as a know it all. His social skills are lacking in situations he doesn't value, it seems to me, while being good in others. Sometimes his emotions are too obvious.

I agree with this take on Holden. I don't think he lacks empathy so much as social skills.

On 8/24/2019 at 1:55 PM, Melina22 said:

It's true. I found Holden a very sympathetic character this season. He's definitely a little different, hyperfocused, without the best social skills, but not cold or sociopathic. At least that's how I read him. 

I actually find Carr more confusing. She makes Holden look fun and easygoing. She almost never smiles. Her apartment looks like a store display. She has almost zero sense of humour. She's every bit as odd as Holden, and yet somehow I find her less appealing. 

Then there's the new boss. Was he on Fringe? There's something otherworldly about him too. Hmmm. I'm sensing a pattern here. 

I agree on Holden, and I also think it's interesting how different he is this season from last. 

I really like Wendy, and have a lot of compassion for her. More on this farther down in answer to Clanstarling, but I think Wendy is not so much cold or humorless as guarded. She has to micromanage herself in this forest of men, both the killers and the men who hunt them. She cannot be honest about her sexual orientation and worse, must battle hidden contempt and harassment with even the slightest smile or kindness. She has to hide who she really is at all times. 

But at heart, I think Wendy is a warm, good person seeking connection. She moves me because both seasons so far, she has seemed quietly, profoundly lonely. She spends all day examining the results of cultural misogyny at its absolute most extreme, then goes home alone to too much wine or (last season, tragically) to attempt to connect with a stray cat. Even in her interactions with her girlfriend this season -- while they have zero compatibility, she is frank and complimentary, continuously tries to reach out, to offer warmth, to genuinely bond, only to be rebuffed. I think her coldness is the veneer she has learned to maintain as a necessity, but even when she tries to let down her guard, people don't seem to want to let her do it.

And Michael Cerveris is wonderful, basically, in anything he does. He was the Observer in "Fringe," and has been amazing in all sorts of stuff, including an absolutely spellbinding Sweeney Todd on Broadway. I saw him in "Hedda Gabler" on Broadway and he was superb.

PS -- In answer to your later post, David Fincher had to teach Jonathan Groff how not to smile when delivering his lines. He was adamant that Groff not smile at all during the vast majority of his scenes, so you're not wrong.

On 8/24/2019 at 3:52 PM, Clanstarling said:

I don't find Wendy any more interesting or obnoxious than her girlfriend. I see no reason why either of them would like each other - they don't seem to have any interests in common, and I don't think they have any chemistry. I didn't believe their flirtation at all. Then again, I felt the same about Holden and his girlfriend last season.  Everyone seems pretty dispassionate - it's hard for me to connect with any of them. With the exception of Tench - and I'm pretty sure it's the actor who moves me, rather than the writing and direction. I don't like his storyline. I understand why they're doing it - but think it's a bit much.

I think maybe we expect women to be friendlier, even if the men around them aren't any different. We're just not used to women on television being so somber and repressed.

I have huge affection for Wendy, but you bring up a sore spot for me with this show -- the writers seem incapable of writing a good, warm, believable relationship. Everyone comes across like action figures being put through the motions, often with cringeworthy dialogue. Tench's wife is a cardboard shrew, Holden's girlfriend last season was a passive-aggressive ass, and Wendy's girlfriend this season is equally unpleasant.

On 8/24/2019 at 7:14 PM, swanpride said:

I like Wendy...because I get her. She is lonely in this new city, the new job while worthwhile isn't exactly panning out like she hoped with her boss basically pimping her out and always being condescending towards her, and her being lesbian makes it double difficult on top of all this.  

I agree. She must constantly be on guard and, to some extent, play a role simply to exist in the world of Quantico, all while witnessing some of the most horrific crimes against (primarily) women imaginable.

Edited August 27, 2019 by paramitch
Added a note about a later reply

[Melina22]

19 minutes ago, paramitch said:

And Michael Cerveris is wonderful, basically, in anything he does. He was the Observer in "Fringe," and has been amazing in all sorts of stuff, including an absolutely spellbinding Sweeney Todd on Broadway. I saw him in "Hedda Gabler" on Broadway and he was superb.

Wow! I only ever think of him as the Observer.(Where he knew Wendy! I mean Olivia.) He brought a wonderful, weird energy to that part. There's something fascinating and unique about him that I just can't put my finger on, but I'm glad he was in this season of Manhunter. You always got the feeling there was something the audience needed to know bubbling just below his surface, and I was intrigued and then disappointed it wasn't revealed. Maybe in Season 3.

22 minutes ago, paramitch said:

the writers seem incapable of writing a good, warm, believable relationship. Everyone comes across like action figures being put through the motions, often with cringeworthy dialogue. Tench's wife is a cardboard shrew, Holden's girlfriend last season was a passive-aggressive ass, and Wendy's girlfriend this season is equally unpleasant.

Yup. Couldn't agree more. 

23 minutes ago, paramitch said:

In answer to your later post, David Fincher had to teach Jonathan Groff how not to smile when delivering his lines. He was adamant that Groff not smile at all during the vast majority of his scenes, so you're not wrong.

I'd love to see outtakes of that. This role was such a departure for him. 

[Melina22]

This conversation just sent me down a Wikipedia/IMDb rabbit hole with astonishing results. 

First, I got to see Jonathan with a beautiful smile, which I realized I hadn't seen once in Mindhunter. Then I realized he was Jesse in Glee, as well as Holden. Two such polar opposite roles. 

Second, Anna Torv is Australian! 

Third, the actress who plays Nancy is British! She was in the UK Office!

That's enough surprises for one night. 😊

Edited August 27, 2019 by Melina22

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, paramitch said:

I really differ in my perception of Holden. Yes, I think he can be detached and socially awkward, but I also think his superpower is simply his gift for compartmentalization. He is able to separate what people do from who they are. He further complicates this in that he can be superb at reading minutiae even though he'll sometimes miss the best things about people right in front of his face (Tench often going to bat for him last season, or Wendy's incredible challenges).

But -- it also means he is at ease in talking to killers, not because he is like them, but because he is (1) fascinated and excited on a clinical level, and (2) I think, at least occasionally, interested in how, in the end, most of them are just people. Warped people, cruel people, but still capable of some terrible remains of sadness or suffering. Which was what was so horrifying about Kemper and even about Richard Speck (cuddling the bird and then killing it in a fit of rage, just to demonstrate his capacity for cruelty). Holden went to Kemper last season because he -- however momentarily -- felt pity and friendship for him, then was reminded by the man himself what Kemper actually is, and his horrified realization, to me, is still with him now. Holden may have thought he was flirting with darkness all last season, slightly contemptuous and above it all, but when he really looked into the abyss, I don't think he will ever be the same again. And he needed that fall from grace. I find him a lot warmer and more human this season.

I agree with this take on Holden. I don't think he lacks empathy so much as social skills.

I agree on Holden, and I also think it's interesting how different he is this season from last. 

I really like Wendy, and have a lot of compassion for her. More on this farther down in answer to Clanstarling, but I think Wendy is not so much cold or humorless as guarded. She has to micromanage herself in this forest of men, both the killers and the men who hunt them. She cannot be honest about her sexual orientation and worse, must battle hidden contempt and harassment with even the slightest smile or kindness. She has to hide who she really is at all times. 

But at heart, I think Wendy is a warm, good person seeking connection. She moves me because both seasons so far, she has seemed quietly, profoundly lonely. She spends all day examining the results of cultural misogyny at its absolute most extreme, then goes home alone to too much wine or (last season, tragically) to attempt to connect with a stray cat. Even in her interactions with her girlfriend this season -- while they have zero compatibility, she is frank and complimentary, continuously tries to reach out, to offer warmth, to genuinely bond, only to be rebuffed. I think her coldness is the veneer she has learned to maintain as a necessity, but even when she tries to let down her guard, people don't seem to want to let her do it.

- - -

I have huge affection for Wendy, but you bring up a sore spot for me with this show -- the writers seem incapable of writing a good, warm, believable relationship. Everyone comes across like action figures being put through the motions, often with cringeworthy dialogue. Tench's wife is a cardboard shrew, Holden's girlfriend last season was a passive-aggressive ass, and Wendy's girlfriend this season is equally unpleasant.

I don't understand why the writers should have written "good" and "warm" relationship in this show. I don't think people who are "warm" by nature, have abilities to study sociopaths and certainly they had no ability to deal with them.

Also, I don't think a person can be "warm" only inside - that is a quality that must be shown outside if it has any meaning. But many time people can't differ showing emotions from real caring.

Wendy is a person who refuses to accepts that it's her role as a woman to "do the emotional work" in the workplace as wives and mothers traditionally do at home. Her priority is to succeed professionally just as men do.

Yet, when Tench has a problem with his son, he tells about it to Wendy, to Holden. And Wendy doesn't react with emotional conforting but by listening and asking questions - it's her way to care, and luckily, what Tench needs.  

And for Holden, I don't think he could compartalize in S1. When talking with the criminals, he seemed fascinated on a personal level about all sexual things that were forbidden from him as a boy. Also otherswise he connected with them because he was raised with the same misogony and therefore it was so natural for him to use the language get the confession.

At the same time, he who hadn't dated since the school found a girlfriend who was willing to do kind of sex with him - until the fiasco with the high heels which he blamed her for his own (physical and understandable) failure, showing that according his inborn misogony she was "bad" being sexy. 

So she was right: he changed.  

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, paramitch said:

Holden went to Kemper last season because he -- however momentarily -- felt pity and friendship for him, then was reminded by the man himself what Kemper actually is, and his horrified realization, to me, is still with him now. Holden may have thought he was flirting with darkness all last season, slightly contemptuous and above it all, but when he really looked into the abyss, I don't think he will ever be the same again. And he needed that fall from grace. I find him a lot warmer and more human this season

I was so happy last season when it led to that scene rather than the cliche Hollywood idea that people are drawn to study serial killers because they somehow are serial killers on some level and are also evil or dark or whatever. I loved Holden suddenly just being a regular person terrified of this guy. However much of a fanboy is of serial killers, it's because he understands they're scary and dark, not because he wants to kill people himself.

13 hours ago, paramitch said:

But at heart, I think Wendy is a warm, good person seeking connection. She moves me because both seasons so far, she has seemed quietly, profoundly lonely. She spends all day examining the results of cultural misogyny at its absolute most extreme, then goes home alone to too much wine or (last season, tragically) to attempt to connect with a stray cat. Even in her interactions with her girlfriend this season -- while they have zero compatibility, she is frank and complimentary, continuously tries to reach out, to offer warmth, to genuinely bond, only to be rebuffed.

Also remember that she mentioned her girlfriend as reminding her of Corll, so I imagine that relationship also taught her to be more guarded even with the person who was supposed to love her.

13 hours ago, paramitch said:

And Michael Cerveris is wonderful, basically, in anything he does. He was the Observer in "Fringe," and has been amazing in all sorts of stuff, including an absolutely spellbinding Sweeney Todd on Broadway. I saw him in "Hedda Gabler" on Broadway and he was superb.

Gotta just agree with this. I've wound up seeing him in Sweeney Todd, Hedda Gabler, Hedwig and the Angry Inch (back in the day!) and Tommy. 

Btw, in case anybody hasn't seen it there's a great clip of Jonathan Groff singing a cabaret duet with...not him, but Tench!

[AZChristian]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Btw, in case anybody hasn't seen it there's a great clip of Jonathan Groff singing a cabaret duet with...not him, but Tench!

Never thought to google this:  but it's there!!!

[Clanstarling]

22 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

Never thought to google this:  but it's there!!!

Well, I didn't know I needed that. But it's made my day - thank you!

[auntiemel]

I was fascinated by the scene this episode where the murdered boy's mom and her friend stopped by to talk with Nancy.

[HunterHunted]

On 8/22/2019 at 2:36 PM, Melina22 said:

Second, and I don't know if this is a trope or because I'm Canadian, but why on American TV is every single person questioned by police, either informally at their door, or in the station, invariably rude, hostile, combative or dismissive? Is no one interested, curious, scared and/or cooperative? Or just plain civil and polite? 

It's sort of a trope, but the reality is that the American criminal justice system is deeply deeply flawed. Depending on your race and socio-economic status, you can experience wildly different treatment by police. The Atlanta child murders do a great job of illustrating that. Sundown ordinances, ugly laws, and loitering laws were all designed to keep the poor, disabled, and people of color marginalized.

[bosawks]

Wendy closing the door while Bill was unburdening himself made me catch my breath.

[Blakeston]

 

 

 

 

On 8/24/2019 at 6:52 PM, Clanstarling said:

By knowing at least some of the boys knew each other, a thorough investigation could find where their paths intersected - and provide some information on how the killer might have gotten to them. I was most intrigued by the one boy saying something like "he's closing in" or "he's getting closer."

The same kid (Pat-Man) was also mentioned in the previous episode. When that boy Albert was describing how Earl and Lubie knew one another, he also mentioned that Pat-Man also hung out with them. And then Albert's mother mentioned that she didn't like Pat-Man coming around, because he was "too old for these boys."

That made him sound pretty creepy. And this wasn't that long after the interview with the guy who worked for (and then killed) the Candy Man, so it makes me wonder if they want us to question whether Pat-Man knew the killer, and maybe even helped him.

[Scout Finch]

On 8/26/2019 at 9:32 PM, paramitch said:

And Michael Cerveris is wonderful, basically, in anything he does. He was the Observer in "Fringe," and has been amazing in all sorts of stuff, including an absolutely spellbinding Sweeney Todd on Broadway. I saw him in "Hedda Gabler" on Broadway and he was superb.

I think I'm the only one who remembers him from the TV show Fame. He played a British musician and I had a crush on him because of his accent and hair (the bald head doesn't do it for me at ALL). I didn't realize until I was doing a search for videos that he's not really British. 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Scout Finch

[Taryn74]

On 9/8/2019 at 12:48 AM, Scout Finch said:

(the bald head doesn't do it for me at ALL)

Agreed. Some people are hella sexy with a shaved head. Michael Cerveris is not one of them.

 

Hubby and I started binge watching this show last week. We're up through 2.07 now. I find myself going over and over the (poor) dead toddler whose death the Tench's son was involved with. Out of all of the plot lines, that one makes the least sense to me.

I immediately caught on to the detective telling Tench that there were several kids' footprints in the house and told hubby the older kids that Brian had been playing with were probably involved. (Do we ever find out how much older they are? 12-ish? Younger? Older?) My first inclination was that they were using Brian to get sick ideas since he had access to his dad's crime scene photos (remember the babysitter found one of the photos under his bed back in S1) and had probably overheard Tench talking about some of the crime scene details from time to time. But none of the later discussions about the toddler's death make it sound like anyone suspects there was anything particularly deviant about the way he died other than he was laid out on a cross afterward (which we get a reasonable explanation for, IMO).

What I can't understand is why nobody seems to think it was strange that a bunch of older kids were "playing" alone with a toddler, in an empty house, a good distance away from the park he disappeared from, not to mention that his death seemed to happen inside the house and was intentional. (It's not as if the kid was someone's little brother that had tagged along and they were literally just playing too rough with him, or he fell down the stairs, or something else that could be explained as accidental. The detective said he'd been strangled and dragged down the stairs, hitting his head several times as he went down, based on the bruising and trauma to the head and neck. Why is no one extremely disturbed by this?! Nobody in the neighborhood even seems to be discussing it other than the initial meeting they had at the church, and the mom coming over to tell Mrs. Tench that she forgives Brian for his involvement. This makes no sense whatsoever to me. I know times were different 40 years ago, but this is not a normal reaction, not even back then.

We'll probably watch the final two episodes tonight so maybe all will be explained! (Or not, this is television after all, heh.)