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S01.E08: And Salt the Earth Behind You

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Speculation over who (if anyone) might die in tonight's season finale of Euphoria has hit a fever pitch in recent days. HBO isn't saying much, but the show's action-packed promo (below) suggests there will be at least one violent situation.

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Everyone's shit is out in the open.

Nate confronts his dad, Maddy confronts Nate, Rue confronts Nate.

Kat and Nathan go for it, Cassie resolves to not fall for anyone again, Lexi still grounded, Maddy and Nathan are back together again.

Rue and Jules are going to run away together, maybe do some polyamory thing with Anna in the city.  But Nate has sown the seed and she doubts Jules is forever, gets scared, won't get on the train.

Where were they going to get money anyways?

As she runs back from the train station, she thinks of all the monstrous things she said and did to her mother.  Was she afraid she was going to sabotage it with Jules too?

Are they all suppose to be juniors?  So they're going to have all this high school drama again next season?  Thing is, a couple of episodes ago it looked like things were dire for many of these characters but this finale was just a relatively sedate junior prom?

And the girls showed a lot of self-awareness.  Besides Cassie trying to avoid falling for someone for awhile, they all wonder if they're peaking in high school, as many people do.  They even see what's going to happen to some of their classmates.

Meanwhile, Fezco probably saved himself for now.  The doctor's kid may seek revenge on him in 10-15 years though.

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Zendaya, in a last-minute bid to solidify at least a Golden Globe nomination, throws in a musical number to end the season.  This show is a really brilliant showcase for her, I have to say; she's shown great skill at picking film projects these last few years, and this demonstrates dramatic depth I'd never seen from her before.

I felt slightly lost with Jules' emotional thread, because she seemed kind of despondent in the city last time we saw her, but here she was 100% eager to go back.

Lexi is either a really intriguing slow-build or just an oddly underwritten character.  I guess we'll wait for season two to see which.

Cassie's skating dream was cool (as a figure skating fan, I always enjoy seeing it in media), though I thought some of the intercutting of her abortion with other events seemed kind of random, compared to the way this show is usually quite meticulous in its symbolism.

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This felt more like a mid season ep rather than a season ending one. A few things happened for sure but not enough.

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All season long I've felt like people (not necessarily here, but just all over the internet) have been too hard on Jules - either blaming her for something that's not her fault (at least not entirely), not understanding the other pressures she's been under or making a lot of assumptions about her feelings based on very little, but this episode... She really lost me this episode and she really confused me. She seemed happy in the city to start and clearly more in her element with like minded people, but by the end, it seemed like she realized she preferred what she'd left behind. Yet this episode, she was gushing about the whole experience, unabashedly waxing poetic about Anna and how much she likes her (apparently loves her) to Rue, sneaking off to text her and wanting to go back. But the worst was her behavior at the train station. She wasn't the least bit concerned about Rue's doubts or concerns, brushing them all off until Rue finally put her foot down and outright said she didn't want to go, and then once she did, she tried to use Rue's dependency on her to get her to do something she clearly didn't want to do. Seeing her begging Rue to come with her and telling her that she loves her, while Rue stood there close to sobbing and fighting her need to please Jules like she'd failed to do all episode long, was really hard to watch. It's fine that she left if that's what she needed to do for her, but the way she went about it, or tried to go about it, was really shitty and selfish of her.

Elsewhere, I continue to enjoy Lexi and find her endearing, but I'm dying to know more about her. Is she really just that sweet and innocent and nice? I waited all season for the other shoe to drop with her, because I figured she had to have something going on, but it seems like so far, she's just the straight man, nice girl that helps and supports others. Which is fine, I think this show needs a character like that - I don't need her to be fucked up like everyone else - but I would like some more focus on her. I really thought we'd get a reveal of her being gay/into girls as the episode played out, especially when Nate's abandoned date sat down after Lexi had expressed wanting to hook up with someone, but alas, it never happened. Hope we see more of her in season 2.

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I couldn't get over Nate just grabbing his date's bare ass on the dance floor. 

I think Rue is dead. Actually, I wondered if we were going to get an "it was all a dream/she's been dead the whole time!" reveal. Her embracing her dead father (it was so sad to learn that she wears that hoodie all the time because it was his) is what made me think so. The flashbacks to the fights with her mother were brutal. (I kept thinking that if I ever called my mother a fucking bitch, I'd be dead or come back to changed locks. Whenever I watch shows or movies about teens, I'm not surprised that they curse around each other - I certainly did - but I AM surprised by how they speak to adults.)

I haven't seen much of Zendaya's work - I'm too old for her kid show stuff and didn't see the Spiderman movie(s) she was in, and IMDB tells me she was in The Greatest Showman, which I also didn't see. But wow, I think she's fantastic here. She also apparently sings (she was singing in the final sequence). It's impressive that she appears to have transitioned from child actress to adult actress without going the Lindsay Lohan route.

Kat and Ethan were adorable. It was nice to have something light and sweet happen.

Structurally, I'm not sure this episode worked for me, but I thought the performances were (and are) stellar.

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1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

I haven't seen much of Zendaya's work - I'm too old for her kid show stuff and didn't see the Spiderman movie(s) she was in, and IMDB tells me she was in The Greatest Showman, which I also didn't see. But wow, I think she's fantastic here. She also apparently sings (she was singing in the final sequence). It's impressive that she appears to have transitioned from child actress to adult actress without going the Lindsay Lohan route.

As with most Disney Channel stars, doing music was part of the package, though from what I understand she hasn’t released anything of her own in several years.

I had never heard of her until Spider-Man: Homecoming and The Greatest Showman in 2017, but those films together felt like they were announcing somebody with real star potential.

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I thought the beginning showed that rue didn't die in the end -- that's why she was in the hospital, and why Jules was asking her if the reason this all happened was because she went away. I think. Really hard to follow things in this one. 

Zendaya was really good at the small moments. She has a really sincere casualness to her acting I've enjoyed. I wonder if she and Bella Thorne ever compare notes.  

For the first time, I felt no sympathy at all for her mom. She seemed to have no desire to interact with her daughter after their father had died. i know she's going through a lot, too, but it seems parenting requires being there at that moment, and she chose not to. I really did like Rue's reaction while she was reading the speech, though is that something that really happens? They have relatives read speeches in public to addicts about the consequences of their addiction? I didn't know public shaming was one of the steps.

I thought the show did a good job of showing that abortion, while necessary and protected, can also be hard.

I was okay with Kat's thing because she's so young. But I wasn't thrilled with the "just want to be loved" aspect of it in the end.

I care very little about Nate, and even less about Maddie. As far as I'm concerned, she put a man in jail for no reason. Jules at least was being badly blackmailed. 

We'll see what happens next year, but I'll watch. 


ETA: i just read Th Ringer review -- Rue was in the hospital because of the kidney infection from last week, apparently. So I guess that makes sense but it could have been spelled out better.

And is a given that Jules is trans? If it is, I'm just really dumb and had thought it, but I'd never heard it actually said before.  

Edited by whiporee

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9 minutes ago, whiporee said:

I thought the beginning showed that rue didn't die in the end -- that's why she was in the hospital, and why Jules was asking her if the reason this all happened was because she went away. I think. Really hard to follow things in this one. 

Zendaya was really good at the small moments. She has a really sincere casualness to her acting I've enjoyed. I wonder if she and Bella Thorne ever compare notes.  

For the first time, I felt no sympathy at all for her mom. She seemed to have no desire to interact with her daughter after their father had died. i know she's going through a lot, too, but it seems parenting requires being there at that moment, and she chose not to. I really did like Rue's reaction while she was reading the speech, though is that something that really happens? They have relatives read speeches in public to addicts about the consequences of their addiction? I didn't know public shaming was one of the steps.

I thought the show did a good job of showing that abortion, while necessary and protected, can also be hard.

I was okay with Kat's thing because she's so young. But I wasn't thrilled with the "just want to be loved" aspect of it in the end.

I care very little about Nate, and even less about Maddie. As far as I'm concerned, she put a man in jail for no reason. Jules at least was being badly blackmailed. 

We'll see what happens next year, but I'll watch. 


ETA: i just read Th Ringer review -- Rue was in the hospital because of the kidney infection from last week, apparently. So I guess that makes sense but it could have been spelled out better.

And is a given that Jules is trans? If it is, I'm just really dumb and had thought it, but I'd never heard it actually said before.  

Re: Jules being trans, in the episode where Jules's back story is revealed, it's spelled out - they show young Jules going into a boy's bathroom, and then she's hospitalized, and then Rue narrates that Jules starts transitioning. I'm not sure if everybody at school knows though.

The nurse at the hospital mentions the kidney infection. When Rue says she'll take Tylenol, the nurse says "You sure? Kidney infections are very painful."

I think everything in this episode except Rue and Jules trying to run away together and Rue's relapse happened before the dance.

Re: Rue's mom at the meeting, I don't know if that happens in NA but if the show Intervention is to be believed, "your addiction has affected my life negatively in the following ways" is basically the premise of the intervention. The idea, I think, is to show that the behavior cannot continue - as one of the interventionists says, "If you want to live like this, you will live like this alone." "Your addiction has affected my life negatively in the following ways ... if you don't get help today, the consequences will be ..." To pretend that, for example, it wasn't incredibly difficult for Gia to find her big sister nearly dead, does Rue a disservice. 

Now, whether that's useful in NA, I don't know, but I can certainly understand why it would be useful in an intervention. And one of the 12 steps is making amends, so I can see how in order to make amends, you have to acknowledge that you hurt people with your actions, which you can't do unless you face them.

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I really wanted some kind of consequences to happen to Nate and/or his dad. His fit at the beginning didn't really seem like enough. I'm curious as to what Maddie might do with the knowledge of what was on that CD....if anything.

I was happy that Kat and Ethan got together, but it felt a little too sweet and simple for this show honestly. I also continue to be baffled that Maddie, Kat, and Rue are all in the same friend group. It seems so unlikely. I can see Maddie and Cassie hanging around together and maybe Lexi as the sister tag-along sometimes, but that's about it.

And add me to the bunch confused by Jules. She's "in love with" Anna after one zonked-out night at a club... where she was fantasizing Anna was Nate?! I think she clearly has no concerns for Rue's mental state/needs. I know all the characters are basically (except Lexi and the drug dealer) acting out in various ways because they need attention and love, but I kind of wish they'd drill down a little more on Jules's mental issues. Maybe in S2...

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39 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Re: Jules being trans, in the episode where Jules's back story is revealed, it's spelled out - they show young Jules going into a boy's bathroom, and then she's hospitalized, and then Rue narrates that Jules starts transitioning. I'm not sure if everybody at school knows though.

The nurse at the hospital mentions the kidney infection. When Rue says she'll take Tylenol, the nurse says "You sure? Kidney infections are very painful."

I think everything in this episode except Rue and Jules trying to run away together and Rue's relapse happened before the dance.

Re: Rue's mom at the meeting, I don't know if that happens in NA but if the show Intervention is to be believed, "your addiction has affected my life negatively in the following ways" is basically the premise of the intervention. The idea, I think, is to show that the behavior cannot continue - as one of the interventionists says, "If you want to live like this, you will live like this alone." "Your addiction has affected my life negatively in the following ways ... if you don't get help today, the consequences will be ..." To pretend that, for example, it wasn't incredibly difficult for Gia to find her big sister nearly dead, does Rue a disservice. 

Now, whether that's useful in NA, I don't know, but I can certainly understand why it would be useful in an intervention. And one of the 12 steps is making amends, so I can see how in order to make amends, you have to acknowledge that you hurt people with your actions, which you can't do unless you face them.

Thanks for setting me straight on the stuff I didn't get. I always thought it was the case about Jules, but I just wasn't sure it was canon. I tend to watch late at night, and I'm often sleepy. Thanks again. 

As the NA stuff, I know atonement is part of the program, I just didn't know they happened in front of other people who weren't directly affected by an individual's addiction. Rue's mom was doing this in a church setting, with other people int he audience, of which Rue was one, just sitting in the pews. She even introduced herself as Rue's mom. That whole things seemed odd to me, but as a narrative device it worked. 

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21 minutes ago, taragel said:

I was happy that Kat and Ethan got together, but it felt a little too sweet and simple for this show honestly. I also continue to be baffled that Maddie, Kat, and Rue are all in the same friend group. It seems so unlikely. I can see Maddie and Cassie hanging around together and maybe Lexi as the sister tag-along sometimes, but that's about it.

Do not buy that friend group AT ALL, especially in high school.  That kind of stuff takes me out of the show.

12 minutes ago, whiporee said:

As the NA stuff, I know atonement is part of the program, I just didn't know they happened in front of other people who weren't directly affected by an individual's addiction. Rue's mom was doing this in a church setting, with other people int he audience, of which Rue was one, just sitting in the pews. She even introduced herself as Rue's mom. That whole things seemed odd to me, but as a narrative device it worked. 

It was an NA meeting, and it's not public shaming, it is a way to get through to an addict to let them know that they are hurting other people with their actions.  It happens in real life.  It usually starts, like Rue's mom's did with telling the addict that they love them, and support them, but that they have done xyz while active in their addiction.  Sometimes the addict has no idea who they have hurt, they have been in a haze.  

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Nate's dad was horrible tho. He started criticizing his son for not being a strong leader and losing control of his team which added more fuel to the fire and led to the fighting scene where he exerted his dominance and asserted control instead of comforting him. That wasn't a good father move and I don't think it was the right time for him to teach Nate a lesson and was insensitive of him to do so because of Nate's emotional state. But it was weird to see Nate break down, be emotionally vulnerable and cry because of how I am used to seeing him, this side of him ends up looking unusual and strange to me.

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7 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

Do not buy that friend group AT ALL, especially in high school.  That kind of stuff takes me out of the show.

Yeah, unless they've all been friends since middle school and haven't realized they've grown apart yet, but that usually happens pretty early in high school.

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26 minutes ago, thegorgeous said:

Nate's dad was horrible tho. He started criticizing his son for not being a strong leader and losing control of his team which added more fuel to the fire and led to the fighting scene where he exerted his dominance and asserted control instead of comforting him. That wasn't a good father move and I don't think it was the right time for him to teach Nate a lesson and was insensitive of him to do so because of Nate's emotional state. But it was weird to see Nate break down, be emotionally vulnerable and cry because of how I am used to seeing him, this side of him ends up looking unusual and strange to me.

Most kids stop having full-body tantrums at age5 or 6... so for a huge teenager to be thrashing around like that, it was weird!

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13 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

Most kids stop having full-body tantrums at age5 or 6... so for a huge teenager to be thrashing around like that, it was weird!

I think we were meant to see that it was out of character - Cal was clearly rattled by it. It wasn't portrayed like "Oh, Nate's having another one of his spells."

Did anyone find it unrealistic that Cal got the upper hand? Cal and Nate are both big, but Nate has a good 3" on Cal and is 30 years younger and an athlete.

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Any ideas as to what dvd Maddy was watching on her computer and looking surprised by? Was it of Nate's dad and Jules? That's the only idea I can come up with.

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22 minutes ago, solve said:

Any ideas as to what dvd Maddy was watching on her computer and looking surprised by? Was it of Nate's dad and Jules? That's the only idea I can come up with.

Yes, she found the cd in Nate's room, tucked into the book, and took it..  Nate had stolen that cd of his dad and Jules (or his dad and another trans person) in the 1st or 2nd episode.  

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A pretty lackluster finale imo. Felt like obligatory check-ins to wrap up everyone's storyline with a scene or two that could've been at the end of the actual episode with the plot, and then stringing them together. Jules is super flaky and manipulative and it makes me sad for Rue. Kat/Ethan were adorable and finally TV characters who (eventually) communicate and talk about why they acted that way!!! 

So Anna's older too and now Jules is in love with her after one night? She's a mess. I was an incredibly sheltered high schooler, but is it a thing to sleep with people 10/20/30 years older than you and then they just...don't care that you're underage?

I'm guessing Lexi's rambling might be foreshadowing her pursuing Rue next season, but at the same time they don't flirt or anything and she doesn't seem jealous of Jules so I don't really get it. The show's logic seems to be Rue taught Lexi how to kiss + we haven't seen her hook up with a dude = Lexi's into Rue.

Cassie's actress gave a stellar performance.

I hope the show having the winter formal as the season finale means the hiatus won't be long. 

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Maddy is something too

She sees "forty dicks" Nate has in his phone, says sexuality is a spectrum.

Does she really believe that or she doesn't mind having a gay or at least conflicted bf?

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3 hours ago, taragel said:

And add me to the bunch confused by Jules. She's "in love with" Anna after one zonked-out night at a club... where she was fantasizing Anna was Nate?! I think she clearly has no concerns for Rue's mental state/needs. I know all the characters are basically (except Lexi and the drug dealer) acting out in various ways because they need attention and love, but I kind of wish they'd drill down a little more on Jules's mental issues. Maybe in S2...

Seems like she's just open to all kinds of sexual encounters.

If she's getting so much play, so many people wanting her, why did she do that creepy hookup with Cal?  That was like some Tinder or Grindr thing?

Though I don't know if Jules necessarily is having sex with Rue and Anna or just a lot of kissing and some grinding.

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24 minutes ago, SnarkEnthusiast said:

Kat/Ethan were adorable and finally TV characters who (eventually) communicate and talk about why they acted that way!!! 

Yeah they were adorable and the way Kat was vulnerable showed a character development but I am a bit concerned about her skype sessions and twerking like what if she continues doing them when she is with Ethan that would be fucked up and we still don't know who Kat's mysterious benefactor was maybe this could impose future problems and I feel bad for Ethan who said he will do his best to make sure that he is the one who gets hurt.

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30 minutes ago, scrb said:

Maddy is something too

She sees "forty dicks" Nate has in his phone, says sexuality is a spectrum.

Does she really believe that or she doesn't mind having a gay or at least conflicted bf?

I'm not sure if she believes it. She's probably just pulling phrases she's heard in culture to make Nate happy. His response to them shows how homophobic a lot of people continue to be.

I'm not sure how we're really supposed to read Nate's sexuality. Is he gay or transphilic? He doesn't seem attracted to Maddy. Anyway, it's creepily tied in with his father.

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6 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I couldn't get over Nate just grabbing his date's bare ass on the dance floor. 

That was horrifying.

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Honestly I feel that there must more to the story of Nate's brother and mother I wonder what their side of the story would be like, they may know about Cal and his secret as well but keep shut, I don't want to believe that they are so gullible.

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So, I have to wait (how long) until next season to see what happened to my bru Fezco?  I think he is too interesting and integral a character to take out offscreen but I'm also not 100% sure he makes it through that encounter with Mouse.  If this series were hyperrealistic (which may be Fez's saving grace, as it is anything but), it would seem to me that the Dr. Supplier would have very quickly reached out to Mouse to tell him that one of his slingers likely robbed him.  The fact that Fez was out and shows up not long after such a call would have been placed and pays for his drug consignment with stacks of bills covered in fresh blood would have been more than enough for Mouse to cap his ass and probably the little brother as well.  Grandma would be optional.  I don't see Mouse as a character who has a high threshold for pulling the trigger.

At least we now know that the woman in the hospital bed is Grandma and not mom.  I really want a character prologue for Fez next season.

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They did Mckay dirty. He wasn't in the episode and wasn't even mentioned. Just another underused and misunderstood black male character. Just toss him on a pile with all the others in the history of movies and TV. 

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Can someone explain to me what was going on when Fez?

This episode was super intense and at times hard to follow.

Some first thoughts...

At first I thought they jumped way ahead to see Jules hugging Maddy at the dance and Cassie no longer in love with McKay. We’ve never seen Maddy friends with Rue or Jules before so I honestly thought some major Big Little Lies type event happened for them to be friends.

This show is just incredible. Don’t get why it’s not much more popular and talked about.

The end totally confused me. Was Rue snorting the lie supposed to happen after leaving the train station? I don’t think so but not certain.

Rue not going with Jules was a major step forward in her recovery so I don’t see her relapsing immediately following.

Need more time to digest.

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41 minutes ago, SoWindsor said:

Can someone explain to me what was going on when Fez?

This episode was super intense and at times hard to follow.

Some first thoughts...

At first I thought they jumped way ahead to see Jules hugging Maddy at the dance and Cassie no longer in love with McKay. We’ve never seen Maddy friends with Rue or Jules before so I honestly thought some major Big Little Lies type event happened for them to be friends.

This show is just incredible. Don’t get why it’s not much more popular and talked about.

The end totally confused me. Was Rue snorting the lie supposed to happen after leaving the train station? I don’t think so but not certain.

Rue not going with Jules was a major step forward in her recovery so I don’t see her relapsing immediately following.

Need more time to digest.

Fez owed his boss, Mouse, money but since he flushed his stash when Nate called the cops on him last episode, he had nothing to sell to pay Mouse. He robbed a doctor, who was supplying Mouse, to get the cash to pay him back. Mouse saw the blood on the cash and drew down on him. We don't know Fez's fate.

Rue did the line after she got home. I don't think she saw her staying as a positive step in her recovery; I think she saw it as a failure that she couldn't be or do what Jules wanted, and that broke her. She is as addicted to Jules as she is to opiates, so I think part of the relapse was to dull the pain of not being with Jules.

... Lord, that child needs so much help.

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Gotta be honest...after sticking it out this whole series, the last 15 minutes or so of this episode really caused me to lose patience. It felt like three music videos back to back, capped off with Zendaya actually singing in the last one. I'm not sure I'll be back for the next season...

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On 8/5/2019 at 10:25 AM, whiporee said:

ETA: i just read Th Ringer review -- Rue was in the hospital because of the kidney infection from last week, apparently. So I guess that makes sense but it could have been spelled out better.

And is a given that Jules is trans? If it is, I'm just really dumb and had thought it, but I'd never heard it actually said before.  

Rue says in her voice over that she's in the hospital for a kidney infection and then the nurse mentions it, too.

And as for Jules, you see her taking hormones injections or whatever meds it was in the pilot, then Rue mentions when she started transitioning in the intro to her episode, and I'm pretty sure they spoke about it pretty openly and extensively in the penultimate episode, particularly in the scene where Anna was doing her make up and they were discussing her relationship to femininity.

On 8/5/2019 at 11:24 AM, taragel said:

I was happy that Kat and Ethan got together, but it felt a little too sweet and simple for this show honestly. I also continue to be baffled that Maddie, Kat, and Rue are all in the same friend group. It seems so unlikely. I can see Maddie and Cassie hanging around together and maybe Lexi as the sister tag-along sometimes, but that's about it.

I don't think they're truly in the same friend group. We've barely seen Rue hang out with them, save for her catching a ride in the first episode and then sitting with them at the dance in this episode. Cassie and Lexi seem to be really close in age, probably just a year apart, and Cassie's friends are probably just mostly friends/friendly with Rue because she grew up best friends with Lexi.

On 8/5/2019 at 1:46 PM, SnarkEnthusiast said:

So Anna's older too and now Jules is in love with her after one night? She's a mess. I was an incredibly sheltered high schooler, but is it a thing to sleep with people 10/20/30 years older than you and then they just...don't care that you're underage?

I'm guessing Lexi's rambling might be foreshadowing her pursuing Rue next season, but at the same time they don't flirt or anything and she doesn't seem jealous of Jules so I don't really get it. The show's logic seems to be Rue taught Lexi how to kiss + we haven't seen her hook up with a dude = Lexi's into Rue.

The thing with Jules sleeping with older people is that it's usually closet/married older men who are paying to fetishizing her body, so I think her being a bit under age is the least of their concerns, sadly. Not sure how much older Anna is supposed to be though, probably not much older, I don't think.

Lexi has definitely given more than a couple pining/jealous looks at Rue while she was with Jules. I think she's more envious than jealous, though. Most discussion I've seen about her feelings have her liking Rue, but just being happy as long as Rue is happy, and she thinks she's happy with Jules, so that's good enough her. But now that she won't be with Jules, well, who knows.

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Lexi looked amazing this episode! They finally let her dress up. I don't necessarily think she is lesbian. Her feelings for Rue are platonic in my opinion and come from a lifelong bond and friendship between the two. While Lexi is completely dedicated to that friendship and is likely sad and scared that the two are growing apart, Rue is far less invested in the friendship and because of her life circumstances, sees their rift as natural and no big deal. I think Lexi likes guys, but is so painfully shy around them that she is completely intimidated by even the thought of interacting with them. She admires her sister's ease with connecting with guys and probably hates that she is 180 degrees from that. I think this was shown in her choice of Halloween costume. She didn't dress in a sexy outfit for that because the thought of guys approaching her scared her to death, though deep inside she wants that more than anything. Even her Mom ridiculed her about that! Maybe her choice of dress for the Formal was a step in the right direction for Lexi and a sign of progress.

I find the dynamic between Nate and Jules to be fascinating. I think they both have a very strong sexual attraction to each other, but that is threatened by strong mixed signals. A big part of Jules hates Nate and is scared of him, yet another side of her ridicules him for being a "pussy". Nate seems to admire Jules' independence and her toughness. He puts her on a pedestal to a certain extent compared to Maddy, who he knows is weak, stupid and someone he can control/manipulate at will. To Nate, Jules is the complete opposite of that. Think about it. Nate has menaced all of his peers and Jules is the only peer to have stood up to him, ridiculed him, and scared him hard (with the knife in episode 1). Yet, most of the time Jules is scared of Nate and surprisingly allowed him to trick her with the "photos". Have you noticed that Rue seems to hate Nate more than Jules does? I think there is some unconscious jealousy there. If it wasn't for Jules deep seated attraction to Nate, she would leave completely and move back to the city for good. She has nothing else in the suburbs to value, certainly not her feelings for Rue.

Edited by BigDfromLA
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5 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Rue did the line after she got home. I don't think she saw her staying as a positive step in her recovery; I think she saw it as a failure that she couldn't be or do what Jules wanted, and that broke her. She is as addicted to Jules as she is to opiates, so I think part of the relapse was to dull the pain of not being with Jules.

... Lord, that child needs so much help.

That’s an interesting perspective. 

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The musical number came out of nowhere i was very confused but i didnt know Zendaya could sing like that. This show introduced me to some awesome songs

Jules for The past few episodes have been a selfish douche. She started out my fav but now if she never comes back I think I'll be ok she completely lost me when Rue was saying she needs her medication and she ignored. She lost me before than when she was talking about her hookup to Rue. She lost me when she fell in love again with Anna. And I get that Nate is putting her through a lot but she doesn't have any care for anyone else but herself. Rue cares about what she's going throughbwants to kill for her but Jules doesn't even care enough to text a girl who you know loves you and is your bestfriend for a week and just ghost her and come back like nothing happened.

I don't think that Nate wants Jules je might find her aytractive as shes not what he goes for but I don't know what's up with Nate I don't know if he's gay or what but I know he has a lot of demons and he's a psychopath but I do believe Nate loves Maddy. Doesn't respect her one but but he loves her and is doing all this for her in his own sick way. Maddy should run away because he is abusive and it will not end well. I dont like Jules but i wouldnt want them to romantisice their relationship with the whole she can help him find love and change him crap that teens seem to think is so romantic it will not end well Nate needs help not a relationship. He's a very good villian and the actor is fantastic

Same thing with Rue. She needs to learn to depend on herself. She went from drugs to Jules and now that Jules left justnlike Ali warned she back to drugs. The jacket killed me though damn. I would love to see Rue away from rules I hope next season we can stop trying to romanticize that toxic relationship and we can focus on some other great characters. (I'm looking at you Lexi Bob Ross, I'm looking at you!)

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1 hour ago, beetlesoda said:

The musical number came out of nowhere i was very confused but i didnt know Zendaya could sing like that. This show introduced me to some awesome songs

Jules for The past few episodes have been a selfish douche. She started out my fav but now if she never comes back I think I'll be ok she completely lost me when Rue was saying she needs her medication and she ignored. She lost me before than when she was talking about her hookup to Rue. She lost me when she fell in love again with Anna. And I get that Nate is putting her through a lot but she doesn't have any care for anyone else but herself. Rue cares about what she's going throughbwants to kill for her but Jules doesn't even care enough to text a girl who you know loves you and is your bestfriend for a week and just ghost her and come back like nothing happened.

I don't think that Nate wants Jules je might find her aytractive as shes not what he goes for but I don't know what's up with Nate I don't know if he's gay or what but I know he has a lot of demons and he's a psychopath but I do believe Nate loves Maddy. Doesn't respect her one but but he loves her and is doing all this for her in his own sick way. Maddy should run away because he is abusive and it will not end well. I dont like Jules but i wouldnt want them to romantisice their relationship with the whole she can help him find love and change him crap that teens seem to think is so romantic it will not end well Nate needs help not a relationship. He's a very good villian and the actor is fantastic

Same thing with Rue. She needs to learn to depend on herself. She went from drugs to Jules and now that Jules left justnlike Ali warned she back to drugs. The jacket killed me though damn. I would love to see Rue away from rules I hope next season we can stop trying to romanticize that toxic relationship and we can focus on some other great characters. (I'm looking at you Lexi Bob Ross, I'm looking at you!)

So Nate is a an abusive Psychopath who treats Maddy horribly but you believe he loves her? If only Mckay who is nothing like Nate could be romanticized like that. By the way I don't think Nate even knows what love is.

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1 hour ago, beetlesoda said:

Jules for The past few episodes have been a selfish douche. She started out my fav but now if she never comes back I think I'll be ok she completely lost me when Rue was saying she needs her medication and she ignored. She lost me before than when she was talking about her hookup to Rue. She lost me when she fell in love again with Anna. And I get that Nate is putting her through a lot but she doesn't have any care for anyone else but herself. Rue cares about what she's going throughbwants to kill for her but Jules doesn't even care enough to text a girl who you know loves you and is your bestfriend for a week and just ghost her and come back like nothing happened.

I think the same about Jules. She is lying to Rue and even to herself that she is in love with her but if she really loved Rue she wouldn't fucking leave her on that platform crying  and wouldn't make her choose between staying with her family and leaving to the city with her that's unreasonable, that was nasty shit right there. Also Rue just got out of the freaking hospital helllooo. It is evident that she doesn't put much thought about leaving her sweet father alone worrying about her as well, i can only imagine what it is for him, it requires a bit of emotional intelligence to pause and give a second thought. She wants to be wild, be free and roam around without any consequences which is totally irresponsible besides I didn't see any character development from her. And her treatment to Rue and disregard for her feelings - talking about hooking up with Anna in front of Rue, making her wear something she feels uncomfortable in while mocking her for always wearing a hoodie and sweatpants are beyond telling that Rue is only disposable goods for her. Rue needs to get her shit together, have some boundaries and protect herself from people such as Jules. Nate is right - Jules will leave Rue, she already did as we saw and won't even remember her in ten years.

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I didn't really know who Zendaya was before The Greatest Showman/Spider-Man one two punch, but she really is a really talented performer. She has so much charisma but at the same time is a very natural actress, she really makes this show work, even when its super over the top dramatic, she grounds it really well. 

So we get to check in with most everyone during the finale (except for Mckay, which was weird considering) and surprisingly, everyone managed to make it out alive! Not everyone is doing great though, especially Rue has has relapsed, Jules who is doing...I dont even know what Jules is doing, and Nate, who is possibility the most messed up person on the entire show, which is really fucking saying something. I admit that I like the weird dream sequences, like Cassie's ice skating during the abortion and Rue and her mental flash mob. Its makes the show a bit more unique than being a Gen-X angst fest but 20 years later. 

I find Nate to be vastly more interesting when he is falling apart than when he is some kind of extra evil 80s teen flick bad guy. The evil straight white guy who is a homophobic dick who has major issues with women is a character that can only go so far as anything other than a villain, but a teen who is so deeply emotionally stunted that he wallows rage and toxic masculinity when he finds any failure in himself to be a much more interesting character, and a character with more longevity than a straight up villain would be. His dad immediately telling him how he "let the team get out of control" and handling his fit by screaming at him and shoving him was really disturbing, and considering creep dad gets off on dominating and controlling much younger people sexually, it really makes you see how Nate grew up to be so obsessed with control and tends to see people as things to be dominated and life exists to be "won" not lived. 

I think that Rue has become codependent on Jules, or has even used her as a replacement addiction to drugs. She NEEDS Jules, and in this time of her life when she is floundering for something good and consistent, she latched onto Jules as her lifeline. But I dont think Jules is as stuck on Rue as Rue is on her, or at least she wont be forever. Jules seems pretty quick to ditch Rue when she wont play along with her, and while she does care about her, I dont think she loves her with the same intense ride or die way that Rue loves her already. Which is fine, they hardly even know each other, but its not healthy for Rue to be so attached to a person who she clearly cant count on in this time in her life. Jules seems to be chasing the rush, while Rue is trying to slow down.

In the sea of dysfunctional relationships and characters, the sweet and honest conversation between Kat and Ethan was a breath of fresh air. I just hope it goes well, even if its not for forever. 

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Not sure they're done with McKay, even though he didn't appear in the finale.

They went to the trouble of giving him a back story.

So he's two years older than most of these kids?

Now that he's no longer dating Cassie, it's hard to keep him in the show, since the story is centered around these high school kids living in this town while he's away at college.

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2 hours ago, mommalib said:

So Nate is a an abusive Psychopath who treats Maddy horribly but you believe he loves her? If only Mckay who is nothing like Nate could be romanticized like that. By the way I don't think Nate even knows what love is.

I don't know how you got me romanticize their relationship from what I wrote when I specifically said Maddy should run from the relationship and Nate needs help and is a an abusive psychopath and shouldn't be in a relationship.  He should actually be in jail but ok.

And yes he loves her in his own way in my opinion but again it just my opinion. Again I'm not romanticize it I am acknowledging it as I try to understand his character.

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16 minutes ago, beetlesoda said:

I don't know how you got me romanticize their relationship from what I wrote when I specifically said Maddy should run from the relationship and Nate needs help and is a an abusive psychopath and shouldn't be in a relationship.  He should actually be in jail but ok.

And yes he loves her in his own way in my opinion but again it just my opinion. Again I'm not romanticize it I am acknowledging it as I try to understand his character.

Like I said I don't think Nate knows what love is. But your right it's your opinion.

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34 minutes ago, scrb said:

Not sure they're done with McKay, even though he didn't appear in the finale.

They went to the trouble of giving him a back story.

So he's two years older than most of these kids?

Now that he's no longer dating Cassie, it's hard to keep him in the show, since the story is centered around these high school kids living in this town while he's away at college.

I wouldn't be surprised if Mckay wasn't around next season. Any time your supposed to be a main character and is not even mentioned in the finale is a bad sign. His girlfriend had an abortion and apparently dumped him(an argument can be made he should have broken up with her) and we don't get to see is reaction to any of that. Plus we don't even know if she told him about Daniel. Again the only black male character on the show and in the main cast and it's like he doesn't even matter.

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I was greatly enjoying the episode - the storytelling, the dialogue, the character interactions. . .until the last ten minutes when it became a frikken surreal musical.  I don't enjoy that stuff.

Regarding who knows about Jules' transgender status, I may be out on a limb by myself, but I have assumed that pretty much all the characters know about it but very few care much or make a big deal about it.

What do others think?

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48 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

In the sea of dysfunctional relationships and characters, the sweet and honest conversation between Kat and Ethan was a breath of fresh air. I just hope it goes well, even if its not for forever. 

It was definitely a good start for them and if they keep up this level of open communication and healthy relationship talk I think that maybe they can go far although I don't really think that Kat deserves him at this point because even though she apologized I think she still has personal issues that would end up hurting the relationship and would repeat in the future creating a loop until she overcomes her insecurities. Also it is not fair for Ethan to be the one who takes all the pain and hurt during the process. 

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2 hours ago, sd dude said:

Regarding who knows about Jules' transgender status, I may be out on a limb by myself, but I have assumed that pretty much all the characters know about it but very few care much or make a big deal about it.

What do others think?

That's my assumption.  The show doesn't depict it as a big deal, as far as how the other teens react (except with Nate, obviously, but even he just seemed to know she was trans on first meeting her).

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I don't know if I was burnt out from work or what, but I thought this episode felt like it was three hours long and I was kind of bored!

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13 hours ago, mommalib said:
13 hours ago, scrb said:

Not sure they're done with McKay, even though he didn't appear in the finale.

They went to the trouble of giving him a back story.

So he's two years older than most of these kids?

Now that he's no longer dating Cassie, it's hard to keep him in the show, since the story is centered around these high school kids living in this town while he's away at college.

I wouldn't be surprised if Mckay wasn't around next season. Any time your supposed to be a main character and is not even mentioned in the finale is a bad sign. His girlfriend had an abortion and apparently dumped him(an argument can be made he should have broken up with her) and we don't get to see is reaction to any of that. Plus we don't even know if she told him about Daniel. Again the only black male character on the show and in the main cast and it's like he doesn't even matter.

I don't know if McKay will appear in the next season but if he doesn't then why did they bother giving him a back story, if they drop the character the next season that would be extremely unpurposeful for the show and viewers would feel that it was a waste of screen time and would lose trust but at this point I have already lost some trust since he wasn't even briefly in the final episode. I think McKay has a lot of potential I hope they do justice to him in the next season and also to Fezco and Lexi everyone wants to see more of those two. 

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2 hours ago, thegorgeous said:

I don't know if McKay will appear in the next season but if he doesn't then why did they bother giving him a back story, if they drop the character the next season that would be extremely unpurposeful for the show and viewers would feel that it was a waste of screen time and would lose trust but at this point I have already lost some trust since he wasn't even briefly in the final episode. I think McKay has a lot of potential I hope they do justice to him in the next season and also to Fezco and Lexi everyone wants to see more of those two. 

I agree Mckay has tons of potential and that's why i'm disappointed. I don't particularly like the way he was portrayed or the fans response to that. It seems like he was used to make Cassie sympathetic and be a lightening rod for the fans hate. Mckay is a decent but flawed young man and there is definitely room for progression but I already don't trust the show runners with a black male character so I won't hold my breath.

Edited by mommalib
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7 hours ago, marriedaniac said:

Having Donny Hathaway's "Song For You" was gorgeous.

One of my absolute favorite songs of all time. I LOVE that song. I like to sing and most of the time I sing along to songs I know and like, but often with that song I just let his voice wash over me. It's so pure. Brutal to have it over that scene.

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