S05.E18-19: Chapter Ninety-Nine/Chapter One Hundred

[CooperTV]

7 hours ago, natyxg said:

In terms of story structure and character archetypes, yes, Michael was basically the big obstacle to Jane and Rafael. However, I don't think the show treated him that way previous to season five. Michael was just more or less an extension of Jane, but, as far as I remember, he was a "real" person and his relationship with Jane WAS taken very seriously.

I never said plot device is supposed to be written badly. Michael wasn't but he still was plot device that didn't have much life of his own outside being Jane's husband. Jane loved him, and those feelings were overemphasized with his "death", so in her eyes he became the epitome of all good and holy in the world. The LLN/Mateo says in 3.10 that she remembers Michael after his death, Jane becomes in part an unreliable narrator when it comes to him, for all intense and purposes. (But the LLN isn't, so he tells the truth).

Jane loved Michael but until her life kept colliding her with Rafael, she was never going to be content. Maybe, in some other universe, where Jane didn't have a crush on Rafael, where they didn't kiss, where they didn't have a child together, where she didn't break up with Michael (not for Raf but because Michael was full blown lying self-centered douche), where she didn't fell in love with Raf the moment she saw him, where she didn't get jealous of Catalina while blissfully and happily married to Michael, where Raf wasn't her biggest inspiration for writing, her biggest supporter and best friend, who connected her to that part of her life she never would get to if she stayed with Michael.

Sometimes characters on this show do "safe" choice, sometimes they could be even happy with this choice for a while. Doesn't mean the show wants us to believe it's the right choice.

I can talk for hours why Jane and Rafael are perfect couple precisely because the show framed the narrative for everyone in the show like "Be Brave": be better version of yourself, not be afraid to live your full life, don't be afraid to dream big and make your dreams happen.

Season 5 only showcased how Jane thought her relationship with Michael wasn't perfect at all, and that they grew apart over the years. Rafael was supposed to be Jane's first and only choice, all telenovela tropes are supposed to be played out as obstacles for the main couple, JtV did both in season 5, more graceful than it'd happen on any other show. I don't think that's bad writing or insulting.

[twoods]

I don’t think Rafael was supposed to be Jane’s first and only choice. This show showcased that you can be happy and love two people in different stages of your life. She chose Michael over Rafael and had a wonderful and full relationship with him prior to his “death”, and then mourned him and opened her heart again to Rafael whom she had a wonderful relationship as well. All would have been fine if they kept it like that, then they brought back Michael with the sole plot of Jane choosing Rafael this time. What was the point? She already was happy with Rafael. He didn’t even get to interact with the rest of the characters after he regained his memories and was isolated in Montana so Jane and Raf can have their happy ending. It was a disservice for his character to be a plot point, and cruel to his fans who were hoping for something more. 

[natyxg]

1 hour ago, twoods said:

I don’t think Rafael was supposed to be Jane’s first and only choice. This show showcased that you can be happy and love two people in different stages of your life. She chose Michael over Rafael and had a wonderful and full relationship with him prior to his “death”, and then mourned him and opened her heart again to Rafael whom she had a wonderful relationship as well. All would have been fine if they kept it like that, then they brought back Michael with the sole plot of Jane choosing Rafael this time. What was the point? She already was happy with Rafael. He didn’t even get to interact with the rest of the characters after he regained his memories and was isolated in Montana so Jane and Raf can have their happy ending. It was a disservice for his character to be a plot point, and cruel to his fans who were hoping for something more. 

I agree completely. For me much of the pettiness comes from the fact that it wasn't needed at all. She was fine with Rafael, she had moved on from Michael, she was rebuilding her life... Rafael was her endgame, Michael was her past. There was no nagging feeling that she was only with Rafael because Michael was dead. Besides, the way that they plot everything doesn't even fully work to make her "choose" Rafael over Michael, since that Jason/Michael hybrid wasn't even the man she knew and loved. In order for her to fully "choose" Rafael over Michael, then it had to be Michael-Michael.

Everything in that plot was a mess.

11 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

Those things are correct too. A few things were different. You can download the whole thing online. Just *Google* it and it pops up. That's what I did. If you never read the original season 3 draft. You can find it on Reddit. If you want me to send you a link I will. I won't be able to do it until tomorrow. You can download that too. Things were also changed. Some subplots in that season was removed or changed. 

Sure, you can send it if you want.

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, twoods said:

I don’t think Rafael was supposed to be Jane’s first and only choice.

Quote

The one truly non-shocking moment was Jane and Rafael tying the knot, as Urman has been setting these two up as the endgame pairing from the moment Jane got artificially inseminated with Raf’s sperm.

“Always from the beginning I knew it would end here, but that’s a complicated thing ’cause I also knew Michael and Jane were going to get married in the middle of it, and that meant Michael was gonna be the one for her, for a while,” Urman said. “I just knew that by the time we got to the end end of the show, it would be Rafael because of the setup, because we promised that ending of these two people who were brought together because of fate or destiny, had this baby under the most extremely strange of circumstances and then ended up together.”

‘Jane the Virgin’ Creator Jennie Snyder Urman on Series Finale’s Happy Endings, Big Narrator Reveal

Edited August 3, 2019 by CooperTV

[SoMuchTV]

14 hours ago, natyxg said:

Yeah, I think it's supposed to be acting. Mateo would be like Jane herself, for example. She doesn't have an accent because she grew up in the US. In fact, when Mateo says that great grandma says that he would be great at voice over work and the narrator says "and for the record, I am", he sounds like an average American dude. Then he changes his voice again.

Ooh I totally didn't catch that.  Makes sense now.

[Babalu]

6 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Ooh I totally didn't catch that.  Makes sense now.

I didn’t catch that, either, but I did notice that Anthony Mendez didn’t have the LLN accent when he was interviewed during Chapter 99, so I figured Mateo was also using it for the narration.

[Simba122504]

On 8/2/2019 at 4:41 PM, natyxg said:

In terms of story structure and character archetypes, yes, Michael was basically the big obstacle to Jane and Rafael. However, I don't think the show treated him that way previous to season five. Michael was just more or less an extension of Jane, but, as far as I remember, he was a "real" person and his relationship with Jane WAS taken very seriously. They were about to be married when the show started, and the show, imo, did go out of their way to show that he was an "epic" love of Jane's, specially after they decided that she would marry him. Maybe it was to make it seem like she and Rafael really wouldn't end up together, but they went on and on about how they met, the magic kiss, how much Michael knew Jane, how happy they were together after they married... and when he died, Jane mourned him for years. She didn't even go out on a single date for years. Her pain was real, because her love for him was real. She really thought that she was going to spend the rest of her life with him.

So, I think that Michael was a huge part of the show and Jane's journey, and I do think that how they treated him and their story this season was appalling. This year he was just a plot device no one really cared about (the characters, I mean) in a rushed plot that wasn't even needed, and their systematic destruction of Jane&Michael's story was just mean spirited. Letting her fall in love with Rafael all over again after she mourned Michael and they were both (she and Rafael) different people was more than fine, but noooo....

Regarding Adam, he came very late in the show and wasn't on very long, so it's not surprising that he might not have had the same impact, even though in theory he too had an important place in Jane's life. Much like how we don't feel much for Michael and Charlie because we didn't see squat (even though in theory she's his destiny now *eyeroll*), it's hard to feel much for Adam & Jane. That's how it works with stories. People will always care more about the story that they're seeing right now, than they do about the backstory that they didn't see much of.

Given it's a telenovela. What's bigger than bringing Jane's husband back from the dead to challenge the main couple one more time? Because we know they were not going to be happy for all 18 scripted episodes. Nothing else could measure up to it. Why not bring back the ultimate question using a classic soap trope? Jennie already decided to bring Michael before S3 was over. I think some actually thought the endgame was changing, even though it was set in stone since the pilot. They wanted to tell the audience one last time that Jane and Rafael were going to happen no matter what. No matter what you throw at them, they were always going to end up together. And TPTB used two classic tropes they haven't used yet to say it. It couldn't be Adam or Abby or Sam (remember him?) or Catalina. As controversial as it turned out to be. It the world of soaps, it was right on the money. *I'll send that draft today* 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Simba122504

[cardigirl]

My apologies if this link has been provided before. This article states my feelings on the final season pretty well.

I really resent that the writers took everything I found delightful in Michael and Jane’s relationship and gave it to Jane and Rafael. One of my most favorite scenes in the entire series was when Jane and Michael went camping and he told her there were no dealbreakers. It was beautifully acted between Brett and Gina and solidified my enjoyment of them as a couple. 

Lo and behold, Jane has to tell Rafael “no dealbreakers,” and had her first husband not been still alive, it might have had more impact for me. But because Michael reassured Jane with that word, I was not impressed.

For me, the entire desire of wishing for Michael and Jane to end up together has more to do with the way they were written and acted then misunderstanding how telenovellas work. Sorry, writers, you made me love them as a couple, don’t chastise me for wanting them together.

Too bad, so sad they didn’t make Rafael more sympathetic. I guess he was supposed to be seen as an underdog of some sort, but he never seemed that way to me, and it wasn’t until the second half of the fourth season that I could enjoy the “end game.” Bringing Michael back (but not really) and having Rafael scream at Jane for much of the series was not entertaining.

As always, just my opinion. 

[cardigirl]

In this article, I feel that Jennie Snyder Urman may be being a bit disingenuous about the response of the TeamMichael viewers (and a bit condescending as well) but the rest of the interview is nicely done.  Enjoy!

[stealinghome]

Quote

Given it's a telenovela. What's bigger than bringing Jane's husband back from the dead to challenge the main couple one more time? Because we know they were not going to be happy for all 18 scripted episodes. Nothing else could measure up to it. Why not bring back the ultimate question using a classic soap trope?

Just being a classic telenovela trope doesn't mean the show by default should have used it, though, unless it worked for the story and would cover new ground for the characters. I would argue that it didn't really here (and it was executed rather poorly to boot, which didn't help). At this point in the show, no one seriously thought that Jane/Rafael were going to break up long-term over Michael coming back, and it's not really "the ultimate question" if Michael isn't even the same person as he was when he "died" (imo making Michael a fundamentally different person is actually a bit of a writing cheat). I understand why the writers wanted to do the "return from the dead" trope, but ultimately I think it was a big miscalculation and bad choice that unfortunately has ended up sullying one of the best storylines the show ever did: Michael's death and Jane's learning to live again through the grief, which ultimately paved the way for her to be with Rafael long-term (which, by the way, was also the best possible end to the interminable triangle from hell that sucked all the life out of the show for the first two seasons).

Bringing Michael back also, to me, just felt oddly regressive. The show had evolved beyond the character. The actor is charming but showrunners need to learn when to let go.

[CooperTV]

4 hours ago, stealinghome said:

At this point in the show, no one seriously thought that Jane/Rafael were going to break up long-term over Michael coming back, and it's not really "the ultimate question" if Michael isn't even the same person as he was when he "died" (imo making Michael a fundamentally different person is actually a bit of a writing cheat).

The majority of Michael fans thought Michael coming back was the sure sign the show is going in a certain direction they preferred, which was completely incorrect because of that fanbase's confirmation bias. For long stretches of season 5 Michael fans actually were convinced Jane would remarry Michael in the show finale, and that Rafael would marry Petra! We have those kind of specs on this very board, even.

That vocal minority of fans just refused to see the truth, and consistently ignored all signs in-show pointing towards the endgame. And also ignored the showrunner's insistence that this show is not only homage to telenovelas but is telenovela, and there's going to be as many tropes as possible. The fact that Michael fans were mad he was brought back from the dead at all and was given a happy ending convinces me that only thing people are angry about is that he didn't end up with Jane. Alas, Jennie Urman made a decision of bringing Michael from the dead in season 3 (!) and made Jafael the show's endgame before the pilot (!), I don't think she planned that a part of the fanbase would be experiencing cognitive dissonance because they had a different interpretation of the show than its creator had.

I actually disagree about the amnesia and bringing character from the dead tropes were bad writing decisions this season. I never cared about Michael but I always cared about the journey Jane was forced to go because of it. She lived through hell after his death, his mother blamed her consistently for that, she lived with guilt and shame (misplaced, of course) and grief, she was profoundly changed by that loss that Rose put her through. It was only fair to Jane and Rafael that Michael was brought back, so his image would stop being an albatross across her neck, and they part ways amicably and to their own soulmates.

Edited August 4, 2019 by CooperTV

[scrb]

I liked the show for the exuberant moments, like some of the song and dance set pieces, the smart, winking narration.

For some reason though, the finale didn’t move me that much, which is ironic given the presence of Justina Machado, who was on Six Feet Under, which had one of the most deeply moving endings of any work I’ve ever encountered.

Just seemed like it tried too hard to pull at your heart strings.  Maybe being aware of this attempt is what kept me from being pulled in.

Of course these characters went through a lot of trials, overcame all kinds of obstacles.  Yet these happy endings all feel unearned.

 I’m not denying that the show has a lot of heart or that all the weepy moments were genuine but it just seems not to have the same emotional depth as other shows.  Some of these characters hurt and disappointed each other over the course of the series.  But then they eventually got over it, forgave and you have this unrelentingly blissful ending.

So the expectation is that these characters all go off into the sunset, with all the bumps and difficulties of life permanently behind them, for the rest of their lives.  Maybe that’s a telenovela convention  — I’ve never watched one so this is a guess.

Six Feet Under was dismissed by many as too much of a soap opera in its later seasons.  Those characters really hurt and betrayed each other.  Yet the brilliant ending montage showed some of those relationships lasting, though not necessarily in this kind of weepy blissfulness.

[nasir jones]

On 8/4/2019 at 3:23 PM, CooperTV said:

The majority of Michael fans thought Michael coming back was the sure sign the show is going in a certain direction they preferred, which was completely incorrect because of that fanbase's confirmation bias. For long stretches of season 5 Michael fans actually were convinced Jane would remarry Michael in the show finale, and that Rafael would marry Petra! We have those kind of specs on this very board, even.

That vocal minority of fans just refused to see the truth, and consistently ignored all signs in-show pointing towards the endgame. And also ignored the showrunner's insistence that this show is not only homage to telenovelas but is telenovela, and there's going to be as many tropes as possible. The fact that Michael fans were mad he was brought back from the dead at all and was given a happy ending convinces me that only thing people are angry about is that he didn't end up with Jane. Alas, Jennie Urman made a decision of bringing Michael from the dead in season 3 (!) and made Jafael the show's endgame before the pilot (!), I don't think she planned that a part of the fanbase would be experiencing cognitive dissonance because they had a different interpretation of the show than its creator had.

I actually disagree about the amnesia and bringing character from the dead tropes were bad writing decisions this season. I never cared about Michael but I always cared about the journey Jane was forced to go because of it. She lived through hell after his death, his mother blamed her consistently for that, she lived with guilt and shame (misplaced, of course) and grief, she was profoundly changed by that loss that Rose put her through. It was only fair to Jane and Rafael that Michael was brought back, so his image would stop being an albatross across her neck, and they part ways amicably and to their own soulmates.

Let me preface my comments by saying, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but...

You have no clue whether the people who liked Jane and Michael represent a "minority" or majority of the fans.  There's no way to quantify that even if a poll was taken, online or otherwise.  To say that implies a bias on your part.  

As upset as some fans were when Michael was killed off, the show did an excellent job of showing Jane's lengthy grieving process even with the time jump.  I think those people were mostly okay with the way things were turning out, even if that meant Jane and Rafael ending up together.  However, to bring back Michael solely as a plot twist and not the actual character the show fleshed out who was loved by Jane AND her entire family did a major disservice to him and the storyline.  For example, Xo and Rogelio loved Michael.  After he returned, he was basically "That Dude Over There" to them.  That's not giving such an important character the respect he deserved and I kinda understand why.  It wasn't him.  I never for one second bought the idea that Jane was having feelings for him (even during the Montana trip) because that wasn't Michael.  It was Jason.  It was plot-driven nonsense.  That's why I think some people (myself included) feel like they shouldn't have even bothered bringing him back.  Michael didn't get a happy ending with Charlie... the plot-driven replacement with Michael's face named Jason did.  Even if the creator intended to have Jane and Rafael together from the series' inception, I'm not sure how she could be so blind to some fans' issues with the return of "Michael".  It was hollow and denigrated the real love that had existed between Jane and Michael.  It was completely unnecessary.

[marshmallows]

On 8/2/2019 at 11:02 AM, rove4 said:

Same here!  The VM finale was such an utter disappointment...I just have no words for it.  It's rare that a tv series finale can ruin me for ever watching reruns but VM and Rob Thomas managed it.

You can say that again about the VM finale. It truly ruined the entire show for me.

So on that note, I have to say I am so pleased that JtV did not hop on the shock series finale trend. I was truly happy to see all these characters get a happy ending. Bc you know what? Sometimes people do get happy endings. It doesn't all have to be grim.

It is rare for me to actually enjoy a TV show from start to finish. And I truly did enjoy every episode. 

I am also not one who usually enjoys both main ships. I usually pick a side and I will sink with my ship lol. So Idk how the writers did it, but I truly loved both Michale/Jane and Rafael/Jane. So I was going to be happy with either endgame. Now with that said, I do wish they had left Michael dead. This was one of the few shows that let the widow grieve realistically and move on organically. I know it's a telenovela, and coming back from the dead with amnesia is a major trope, but I think they could have missed out on this one trope or used it on someone else that was dead.  

Either way, this is a show I would totally re-watch. And I am really happy that the writers didn't go GoT on us, and everyone got to be happy in the end.

[Simba122504]

On 8/4/2019 at 10:13 AM, stealinghome said:

Just being a classic telenovela trope doesn't mean the show by default should have used it, though, unless it worked for the story and would cover new ground for the characters. I would argue that it didn't really here (and it was executed rather poorly to boot, which didn't help). At this point in the show, no one seriously thought that Jane/Rafael were going to break up long-term over Michael coming back, and it's not really "the ultimate question" if Michael isn't even the same person as he was when he "died" (imo making Michael a fundamentally different person is actually a bit of a writing cheat). I understand why the writers wanted to do the "return from the dead" trope, but ultimately I think it was a big miscalculation and bad choice that unfortunately has ended up sullying one of the best storylines the show ever did: Michael's death and Jane's learning to live again through the grief, which ultimately paved the way for her to be with Rafael long-term (which, by the way, was also the best possible end to the interminable triangle from hell that sucked all the life out of the show for the first two seasons).

Bringing Michael back also, to me, just felt oddly regressive. The show had evolved beyond the character. The actor is charming but showrunners need to learn when to let go.

But the creator always said it was a love letter to telenovelas. It is a telenovela.  Jane and Rafeal needed another big obstacle before the end. The trope says so.  And I know we all find tropes annoying but every series uses them. The seeds were planted before the big reveal in 4x17.  Rafeal was actually called Jane's "One True Love" in S1. And we know Jane's love for Michael was very real but TPTB still put that in there. He even was called her "muse" and "romantic hero." She said Rafeal made her forget about Michael's anniversary. Of course the husband was going to return from the dead with amnesia! 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Simba122504
Removed something

[natyxg]

I still think the show should have followed the original show's suit and instead of giving Xo cancer they should've had Rafael's cancer come back if they wanted some telenovela scary last hurdle.

[CooperTV]

7 hours ago, nasir jones said:

Let me preface my comments by saying, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but...

You have no clue whether the people who liked Jane and Michael represent a "minority" or majority of the fans.  There's no way to quantify that even if a poll was taken, online or otherwise.  To say that implies a bias on your part.  

I'm talking about my impression from the show's Reddit, Tumblr, Twitter where vocal Michael stans were alternating between their Jane/Michael endgame theories (after Jane choosing Rafael in season 5 like, five times, and her making ten grand speeches how she wouldn't ever leave him) and being visibly upset, like Jennie Urman failed them personally. I've seen this kind of behavior with numerous other fandoms, including Harry Potter fandom, where Harry/Hermione shippers constructed the entire false narrative from all Ron/Hermione clues, and when things didn't go their way, they implied JK Rowling is a hack writer. There's nothing new under the sun, especially not the fact people who are biased towards certain characters/ships would deny any possibility other characters/ships have a life beyond their favorites.

7 hours ago, nasir jones said:

It wasn't him.  I never for one second bought the idea that Jane was having feelings for him (even during the Montana trip) because that wasn't Michael.

It's perfectly okay to show your bias. You liked Michael and thought he was an important driving force in the narrative. But it was never true, and the writing always, always showcased that. Note that Rafael had completely different set of obstacles to Jane's to grow as a person, and that Michael didn't have any obstacles to overcome for him to grow as a person because there was never an intention behind that character outside of Jane. And before you say anything, yeah, I'm biased towards Jafael narrative, obviously. But only because the show itself was biased towards it, and it always treated Michael (and Adam, and Sam, and whoever) like plot devices to prevent Jane/Rafael happening too soon, to help Jane grow as a person in the end.

[Nanrad]

Tbh, I don’t think most fans though Jane and Michael we’re getting back together and that he was brought to lose as an obstacle.

Of course people will root for their ship, but going by tumblr, Twitter, Reddit, etc doesn’t mean that most people actually thought they were legitimately getting back together. 

[perkie1968]

On 8/5/2019 at 4:59 PM, nasir jones said:

As upset as some fans were when Michael was killed off, the show did an excellent job of showing Jane's lengthy grieving process even with the time jump.  I think those people were mostly okay with the way things were turning out, even if that meant Jane and Rafael ending up together.  However, to bring back Michael solely as a plot twist and not the actual character the show fleshed out who was loved by Jane AND her entire family did a major disservice to him and the storyline.  For example, Xo and Rogelio loved Michael.  After he returned, he was basically "That Dude Over There" to them.  That's not giving such an important character the respect he deserved and I kinda understand why.  It wasn't him.  I never for one second bought the idea that Jane was having feelings for him (even during the Montana trip) because that wasn't Michael.  It was Jason.  It was plot-driven nonsense.  That's why I think some people (myself included) feel like they shouldn't have even bothered bringing him back.  Michael didn't get a happy ending with Charlie... the plot-driven replacement with Michael's face named Jason did.  Even if the creator intended to have Jane and Rafael together from the series' inception, I'm not sure how she could be so blind to some fans' issues with the return of "Michael".  It was hollow and denigrated the real love that had existed between Jane and Michael.  It was completely unnecessary.

I would like to marry this post!

For me, as a giant Jane/Michael fan, getting over his death was difficult, so to have him return was amazing.  Then back to horrible when it became obvious they were not the endgame.  

Then to have MIchael return once again, but with the pregnant girlfriend.....well, ok, he's moved on, but the gf came across as an annoying biatch that looked like she'd rather be kicked in the crotch then be in a relationship with MIchael.  Why not make her less of a biatch and make me beleive that MIchael would move on from his relationship with Jane to this woman?

Then the wedding episode.  Just seemed so way over the top and a slap to the face of the Jane/Michael wedding, which at that time was a huge deal.  That jewel necklace thingy that Rogelio gave Rafael that the parents wrapped around them during the ceremony, why wasn't that done at the first wedding?  

Fine, the show wanted Jane/Rafael to be endgame but don't poop on those of us who were Jane/Michael fans, but stuck with the show thruought anyway.  

Also, no way did bratty, annoying Matteo grow up to be the cool narrator.  

[natyxg]

12 hours ago, perkie1968 said:

Also, no way did bratty, annoying Matteo grow up to be the cool narrator.  

I'm glad that they kept that reveal for the very end of the show so we could enjoy the narrator without the knowledge that he was Mateo ruining it. Cause Mateo was very annoying 95% of the time.

[SoMuchTV]

12 hours ago, perkie1968 said:

Also, no way did bratty, annoying Matteo grow up to be the cool narrator

I don’t know, I’ve known some bratty annoying kids who grew up to be some pretty cool adults. Some of whom may or may not have lived in my house. (We’re anonymous here, right?)

[nilyank]

13 hours ago, perkie1968 said:

Then the wedding episode.  Just seemed so way over the top and a slap to the face of the Jane/Michael wedding, which at that time was a huge deal.  That jewel necklace thingy that Rogelio gave Rafael that the parents wrapped around them during the ceremony, why wasn't that done at the first wedding?  

There was no way that Rogelio would not given that to Michael and Jane especially not the way he felt about both of them.

[Simba122504]

On 8/5/2019 at 11:54 PM, CooperTV said:

I'm talking about my impression from the show's Reddit, Tumblr, Twitter where vocal Michael stans were alternating between their Jane/Michael endgame theories (after Jane choosing Rafael in season 5 like, five times, and her making ten grand speeches how she wouldn't ever leave him) and being visibly upset, like Jennie Urman failed them personally. I've seen this kind of behavior with numerous other fandoms, including Harry Potter fandom, where Harry/Hermione shippers constructed the entire false narrative from all Ron/Hermione clues, and when things didn't go their way, they implied JK Rowling is a hack writer. There's nothing new under the sun, especially not the fact people who are biased towards certain characters/ships would deny any possibility other characters/ships have a life beyond their favorites.

It's perfectly okay to show your bias. You liked Michael and thought he was an important driving force in the narrative. But it was never true, and the writing always, always showcased that. Note that Rafael had completely different set of obstacles to Jane's to grow as a person, and that Michael didn't have any obstacles to overcome for him to grow as a person because there was never an intention behind that character outside of Jane. And before you say anything, yeah, I'm biased towards Jafael narrative, obviously. But only because the show itself was biased towards it, and it always treated Michael (and Adam, and Sam, and whoever) like plot devices to prevent Jane/Rafael happening too soon, to help Jane grow as a person in the end.

And when Michael died in 3x10. Many fans and even critics believed he wasn’t really dead because it’s a telenovela. They actually wanted TPTB to use the classic trope for Michael. Many theories popped up because it’s a soap. Like y’all (the ones who kept talking about it)  wanted them to use both of them. Back from the dead and amnesia. But no matter what, it wasn’t going to change the endgame.  Yes, both Jane and Rafael grew as individuals. Michael, Adam, Fabian all were there to help Jane’s growth and of course keep the OTP apart a little longer. But Rafael had his own issues to deal him and spent five years not even dating Jane. He had his own personal shit to deal with and we seen it. Stuff that didn’t have anything to do with Jane. Same with Rogelio, Xo, Alba and Petra. We seen flashbacks of these characters that didn’t even involve Jane. Jane, Rafael, Petra, Xo, Alba and Rogelio are all fleshed out characters. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Simba122504
Added more /Typo

[rove4]

9 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

But Rafael had his own issues to deal him and spent five years not even dating Jane. He had his own personal shit to deal with and we seen it. Stuff that didn’t have anything to do with Jane. Same with Rogelio, Xo, Alba and Petra. When seen flashbacks about these characters that didn’t even involve Jane. Jane, Rafael, Petra, Xo, Alba and Rogelio are all fleshed out characters. 

Yes, exactly.  This is what I noticed a long time ago.  All the main characters had their own plot lines that didn't involve Jane.  They all had issues they were dealing with in their own lives of which Jane played no part, except maybe to offer support.  All except for Michael. That's very telling as far as his role in this show.  So when I see people lament that he was such an important character and deserved a better ending I have to disagree because the show didn't seem to think so.  The show never thought him important enough to give him his own non-Jane related stories, to even really give him much of a life outside of Jane.  He was, for all intents and purposes, just Jane's "plus one" for awhile whose sole purpose was to help her in HER journey of self-discovery.  

I do agree though that they could've given Michael a less prickly woman with whom to find love again.  That was an odd choice. 

[smartymarty]

On 8/4/2019 at 8:37 AM, cardigirl said:

My apologies if this link has been provided before. This article states my feelings on the final season pretty well.

I really resent that the writers took everything I found delightful in Michael and Jane’s relationship and gave it to Jane and Rafael. One of my most favorite scenes in the entire series was when Jane and Michael went camping and he told her there were no dealbreakers. It was beautifully acted between Brett and Gina and solidified my enjoyment of them as a couple. 

Lo and behold, Jane has to tell Rafael “no dealbreakers,” and had her first husband not been still alive, it might have had more impact for me. But because Michael reassured Jane with that word, I was not impressed.

For me, the entire desire of wishing for Michael and Jane to end up together has more to do with the way they were written and acted then misunderstanding how telenovellas work. Sorry, writers, you made me love them as a couple, don’t chastise me for wanting them together.

Too bad, so sad they didn’t make Rafael more sympathetic. I guess he was supposed to be seen as an underdog of some sort, but he never seemed that way to me, and it wasn’t until the second half of the fourth season that I could enjoy the “end game.” Bringing Michael back (but not really) and having Rafael scream at Jane for much of the series was not entertaining.

As always, just my opinion. 

Just quoting this because liking it didn't feel like enough. This is exactly how I felt, even down to that camping scene. Jane and Michael worked so well together, not something I saw as much with Jane and Rafael. J & R had all the parenting and do you still love Michael arguments that made it seem like they had to work at their relationship so much more than J and M did. They were so many scenes I can conjure back up where J & M showed how good couples relate to each other.

[smartymarty]

On 8/4/2019 at 3:23 PM, CooperTV said:

That vocal minority of fans just refused to see the truth, and consistently ignored all signs in-show pointing towards the endgame.

For myself, Micheal's return didn't convince me he'd end back up with Jane. I just hoped. Maybe my joy in their relationship made me miss all the season 1 and 2 signs that Rafael was endgame.

[smartymarty]

42 minutes ago, rove4 said:

All except for Michael.

He had the entire Sin Rostro plot?

[funnygirl]

It's wild to me that some prefer Michael to be dead over getting the nice happy ending that he got. He's alive, he's found love - a partner that is compatible to where he is in his growth and life now, they're having a baby and getting married. He's happy. Yet because he didn't end up with Jane, death should be his only other option? Jane and Michael were never going to be endgame. Never. He was part of Jane's growth, not her happily ever after. Michael didn't have a bad ending, and, quite frankly, it was a courtesy bringing him back again in 5x17 just to show where his life is at now.  

The Mexican lasso wedding tradition was a beautiful touch to Jane and Rafael's wedding. The whole event seemed catered to them and their family and it was good to see everyone there together, happy, celebrating.  And Rita Moreno, right!

Edited August 8, 2019 by funnygirl

[rove4]

18 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

He had the entire Sin Rostro plot?

That was still more of Jane's, and to some extent Rafael's, storyline than Michael's.  

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, smartymarty said:

For myself, Micheal's return didn't convince me he'd end back up with Jane. I just hoped. Maybe my joy in their relationship made me miss all the season 1 and 2 signs that Rafael was endgame.

The entire premise of the show, where Jane finds herself pregnant with her crush's child points towards it. What's more is that Jane and Rafael were introduced as two parts of the story in the first episode, while Michael didn't even have a mention in a scene when Jane and he kiss on the porch. It goes like that from there, and Jane clearly has feelings for Rafael even when she's married to her "true love". I mean, Rafael's rejection hurt Jane so badly she closed her heart for him until her editor says he's not sure Josephine even loved Rake, and Jane has a breakthrough and opens her heart to Raf again in season 3.

The EP wanted Michael dead at the end of season 2 (and I'm assuming, "resurrection" at the beginning of season 4), to create an obstacle to established Jafael. They just prolonged Michael being alive for half a season, but in the end the result would be always the same -- Jane and Rafael finding their way back to each other and getting married.

[cardigirl]

49 minutes ago, funnygirl said:

It's wild to me that some prefer Michael to be dead over getting the nice happy ending that he got. He's alive, he's found love - a partner that is compatible to where he is in his growth and life now, they're having a baby and getting married. He's happy. Yet because he didn't end up with Jane, death should be his only other option? Jane and Michael were never going to be endgame. Never. He was part of Jane's growth, not her happily ever after. Michael didn't have a bad ending, and, quite frankly, it was a courtesy bringing him back again in 5x17 just to show where his life is now.

It’s not so much we prefer him dead, as we prefer his memory had not been sullied. In my mind, however, the true Michael was not really brought back, as he never really interacted much with the other characters, they made sure Mateo hated him, and everything that was special about Jane and Michael’s relationship had to be broken down, ruined, or given to Rafael and Jane, case in point, “no dealbreakers.”

If he had not been brought back, the memory of that first love could have remained as it was. Since they did bring him back, why did they never address the torture he underwent? Because they had no real intention of bringing true Michael back. 

I stand by my Team Michael love, and by my disappointment in the way his character’s story was resolved. 

[cardigirl]

37 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

The entire premise of the show, where Jane finds herself pregnant with her crush's child points towards it. What's more is that Jane and Rafael were introduced as two parts of the story in the first episode, while Michael didn't even have a mention in a scene when Jane and he kiss on the porch. It goes like that from there, and Jane clearly has feelings for Rafael even when she's married to her "true love". I mean, Rafael's rejection hurt Jane so badly she closed her heart for him until her editor says he's not sure Josephine even loved Rake, and Jane has a breakthrough and opens her heart to Raf again in season 3.

The EP wanted Michael dead at the end of season 2 (and I'm assuming, "resurrection" at the beginning of season 4), to create an obstacle to established Jafael. They just prolonged Michael being alive for half a season, but in the end the result would be always the same -- Jane and Rafael finding their way back to each other and getting married.

Even if it was the ENTIRE PREMISE of the show, somehow it was written/acted so poorly (to me) that I didn’t buy it, and hoped for a different resolution. 

[funnygirl]

23 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

and everything that was special about Jane and Michael’s relationship had to be broken down, ruined, or given to Rafael and Jane, case in point, “no dealbreakers.”

They did the same thing to Jane and Rafael in season 2 to facilitate Jane reuniting with and marrying Michael (so he could be her "first" I guess? as a means to extend the Jane/Rafael reunion because the endgame couple can't reunite too soon?)

As for the "deal breakers", in fairness it was Michael who said it to Jane, right? Just because he said it to her doesn't mean she can't feel that way and say it to someone else. It's not like she fed both guys the same line. 

[CooperTV]

Quote

It should be noted, that at this very moment, Jane’s passions included: her family, God, grilled cheese sandwiches, writing and Rafael Solano.

Link

[nilyank]

I loved the show the first couple of seasons and it became a chore for the last. I saw the finale so that I could say that I saw it, but I doubt that I will ever want to rewatch the show.

[Simba122504]

12 hours ago, rove4 said:

Yes, exactly.  This is what I noticed a long time ago.  All the main characters had their own plot lines that didn't involve Jane.  They all had issues they were dealing with in their own lives of which Jane played no part, except maybe to offer support.  All except for Michael. That's very telling as far as his role in this show.  So when I see people lament that he was such an important character and deserved a better ending I have to disagree because the show didn't seem to think so.  The show never thought him important enough to give him his own non-Jane related stories, to even really give him much of a life outside of Jane.  He was, for all intents and purposes, just Jane's "plus one" for awhile whose sole purpose was to help her in HER journey of self-discovery.  

I do agree though that they could've given Michael a less prickly woman with whom to find love again.  That was an odd choice. 

I thought Brett and his real life love had great chemistry which is rare. I thought Charlie was funny. 

[CooperTV]

10 hours ago, funnygirl said:

and everything that was special about Jane and Michael’s relationship had to be broken down, ruined, or given to Rafael and Jane, case in point, “no dealbreakers.”

Or everything Jane/Rafael was given to Jane/Michael instead, because they needed to stall the endgame.

I could even say that Rafael hurt Jane so badly that she ran away in another direction and shut down an important part of herself to be with Michael. She wanted desperately to be brave and to do what she liked (writing, traveling), but she was too afraid to live her full potential until Michael (who was the plan for her and who was "safe") "died". She would never ley go of her plan, to become a writer, to let herself to fall in love with Rafael again (who is the representation of all Jane ever wanted and was too scared to get), if Michael was "alive". She would never come back to Michael after such a drastic change, as well.

[rove4]

19 hours ago, funnygirl said:

As for the "deal breakers", in fairness it was Michael who said it to Jane, right? Just because he said it to her doesn't mean she can't feel that way and say it to someone else. It's not like she fed both guys the same line. 

And also, it's not like Michael coined the phrase or it has to be exclusive for Jane/Michael use.  I hear that phrase used frequently on HGTV's House Hunters so it makes sense that it was used by Rafael who is actually in the real estate business now.  Frankly, I don't think the writers even read that much into it.  

10 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

I thought Brett and his real life love had great chemistry which is rare. I thought Charlie was funny. 

Is she?  I had no idea that was Brett's real life SO.  That's kind of cool then. 

[Tikichick]

I started watching the show via a binge of first season just after second had begun.  From the start I expected Jane/Rafael to be the ultimate love story, and yet the Jane/Michael love story really made me invest.  His death was a crushing blow, but I fully expected he would return someday. 

Color me surprised when the return was so offputting.  I fully expected the amnesia.  What was jarring was that when his memory returned I didn't buy he actually felt the same about Jane.  I think ultimately the writing couldn't get around the obstacle of Jane and Michael, together or individually, fully remembering their love for each other AND manage to end with Jane and Rafael truly and deeply in love, happily ever after.  

Always from the start was the idea that Jane and Rafael would and should wind up together, the twist of fate that brought about Mateo decided that.  The unexpected pure, deep love of Jane and Michael deserved a better ending, but the fact of the matter is if I had to write it I cannot come up with a way that honors the beauty of that relationship, allows Michael to not only return but live his life fully and happily and allows the Jane/Rafael love story to be truly a happily ever after without any shadow of the Jane/Michael love story hanging over it.   What would make me feel better about it I think would be really showing memory restored Michael once again as a warm, caring, attentive partner with a match who reflected the same back at him.  I don't buy memory restored Michael being detached and seemingly living an existence where he chooses to live with a brusque, controlling mate.  That's where I'm struggling with letting go on the Michael front.    

[scrb]

14 hours ago, nilyank said:

I loved the show the first couple of seasons and it became a chore for the last. I saw the finale so that I could say that I saw it, but I doubt that I will ever want to rewatch the show.

True of a lot of shows.  They start off with a great premise but you get the sense that they're stretching the series out more than they need to.

You have shows which you slog through to the finish, just to check it off as done.

Crazy Ex Girlfriend was like that, where you have characters doing the same things -- going back and forth between the same guys --  or the plot actions are repeated, like the never-ending criminal plot with the villain always making last-minute escapes.

Then you have shows, mostly made in the UK and other countries, which are only a couple of seasons and they leave you wanting more, like Fleabag or Catastrophe.

[CooperTV]

[Simba122504]

On 8/8/2019 at 12:14 PM, cardigirl said:

Even if it was the ENTIRE PREMISE of the show, somehow it was written/acted so poorly (to me) that I didn’t buy it, and hoped for a different resolution. 

And I think J/M were a generic grade school romance. If somebody told me they never actually had sex I would believe it because that’s how they came off.   They were never meant to be the classic telenovela couple and they definitely were not written that way. Jane cannot grow and live her dreams with Michael. But we all are entitled to our opinions. You believe they were great and that’s fine. I believe they were vanilla ice cream between two slices of white bread. 

18 hours ago, rove4 said:

And also, it's not like Michael coined the phrase or it has to be exclusive for Jane/Michael use.  I hear that phrase used frequently on HGTV's House Hunters so it makes sense that it was used by Rafael who is actually in the real estate business now.  Frankly, I don't think the writers even read that much into it.  

Is she?  I had no idea that was Brett's real life SO.  That's kind of cool then. 

Yep. She is. They’re engaged in real life too. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Simba122504

[Simba122504]

17 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I started watching the show via a binge of first season just after second had begun.  From the start I expected Jane/Rafael to be the ultimate love story, and yet the Jane/Michael love story really made me invest.  His death was a crushing blow, but I fully expected he would return someday. 

Color me surprised when the return was so offputting.  I fully expected the amnesia.  What was jarring was that when his memory returned I didn't buy he actually felt the same about Jane.  I think ultimately the writing couldn't get around the obstacle of Jane and Michael, together or individually, fully remembering their love for each other AND manage to end with Jane and Rafael truly and deeply in love, happily ever after.  

Always from the start was the idea that Jane and Rafael would and should wind up together, the twist of fate that brought about Mateo decided that.  The unexpected pure, deep love of Jane and Michael deserved a better ending, but the fact of the matter is if I had to write it I cannot come up with a way that honors the beauty of that relationship, allows Michael to not only return but live his life fully and happily and allows the Jane/Rafael love story to be truly a happily ever after without any shadow of the Jane/Michael love story hanging over it.   What would make me feel better about it I think would be really showing memory restored Michael once again as a warm, caring, attentive partner with a match who reflected the same back at him.  I don't buy memory restored Michael being detached and seemingly living an existence where he chooses to live with a brusque, controlling mate.  That's where I'm struggling with letting go on the Michael front.    

Even if Michael never “died” Jane and Rafael were going to end up together. They were endgame when the pilot was written. The creator already planned on moving Jane back towards Rafael while she was still married to Michael in S3. Michael was either going to faux die, really die or J/M get a divorce. Because Jane was going to start liking Rafael in a romantic way again. Michael actually lasted longer than originally planned because Brett is awesome. Jane and Michael did fully remember their love. Jane was just not in love with Michael anymore.  And she was never going to be in love with Michael anymore. The time passed. The whole thing reminds me of the days of Brucas vs Leyton. 😂

Edited August 10, 2019 by Simba122504

[rove4]

6 hours ago, Tikichick said:

What was jarring was that when his memory returned I didn't buy he actually felt the same about Jane

I think that was pretty much the intent of the writers, though, right?  Though clearly how well they pulled it off or how acceptable the manner in which they chose to do that are open for debate.  But I do believe Jennie stated somewhere that she was interested in showing that time passes and people move on and there's no real going back for anyone...because no one is the same person they were "x" number of years ago.  Now, Michael's amnesia is an OTT representation of that, obviously, but the crux is that he's a man who, yes, has his memories of pre-amnesia Michael back but he's now also integrating all of his Jake memories.  And of course, there's all the stuff that Jane went through in the years since his "death". 

But, again, I've been on the sinking ship side of things on plenty of occasions in my tv watching history (I'm going down with the ship on two other shows at the moment, actually ☹️) and I know how much it sucks so I sympathize with all the J/M shippers. At the same time, because I've been on the "losing" so many times, I can't help feeling thrilled, and relieved, that the tv stars aligned for me this time.  

Edited August 9, 2019 by rove4

[CooperTV]

16 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

Even if it was the ENTIRE PREMISE of the show, somehow it was written/acted so poorly (to me) that I didn’t buy it, and hoped for a different resolution.  

That is the matter of opinion, clearly. Many professional critics consider season 5 was no lesser than other seasons and actually praise the writing the same way they did before.

The thing is about Jane the Virgin is that it never was a bait and switch kind of show, or a show where endgame was up in air for a time and then some executive producer decided to make one couple happen over the other (like Vampire Diaries, Dawson's Creek and many others). We knew Jane and Rafael were the main characters, we knew they were going to have obstacles, issues and challenges along the way, to become better people and better partners for each other. And in the end, Jane/Rafael became what the show promised it'd deliver at the beginning.

Remember how Jane's unsuccessful first book Snow Falling was criticized? "There is a sense here of promise unfulfilled". Jafael becoming a couple, the endgame, finally fulfills that promise of growth, love, passion and HEA we, as viewers, were waiting for. (The same way her second book, the one about her family and love for Rafael is huge success). The writing did Jane/Rafael justice because it was the story about them.

[cardigirl]

5 hours ago, CooperTV said:

That is the matter of opinion, clearly. Many professional critics consider season 5 was no lesser than other seasons and actually praise the writing the same way they did before.

Absolutely, and although I am not a “professional critic,” I can still watch and love a television show and critique the writing. As I said, Rafael’s emotional beats with Jane never resonated with me as much as Michael’s seemed to. However, I did enjoy the emotional moments Rafael had with Petra. 

The last season is now available on Netflix, so I have been able to rewatch much of season 5, and it is my “unprofessional” opinion that the writing was stronger in the first half of the season. Much like the second half of season 4, when the show was really firing on all cylinders, it feels less rushed, and more complex. The last few shows of the series, while having a lot of content, seemed to hurry through it, and do not seem as well done. 

Best part of Jane’s second wedding was the series of brides. That was very sweet. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by cardigirl

[CooperTV]

[natyxg]

Finally got around to watching the finale. It was okay, I guess. Jane is a show that I always enjoyed and thought kept up the quality through the years, for the most part (specially after they killed the infernal Jane-Michael-Rafael love triangle), but I can't say that I feel sad that it's over, or that I found the finale emotional.

I never hated Jane and Rafael, nor did I ever feel strongly about them. I always knew they were endgame and accepted that, but they never called to me in any particular way. So, I wasn't really moved by this episode. I also feel like this big love story full of obstacles that they want to tell me happened... wasn't there, so meh. And I say “feel” because my memory sucks, so I can't tell you details, I just feel like that never happened. My feeling is that most of the time if they weren't together it was simply because they didn't want to, specially post Michael. I don't find that epic. *shrugs* Though I guess it could be wrong, cause, bad memory. They were also living together at this point, and had been for months, so getting married wouldn't change things all that much anyway either. So, meh. Telenovelas might always end in weddings, but the protagonists haven't been living as a married couple for God knows how long when they get married. lol.

At least they didn't do what the original did, which was tell us that they were going to get married, we see them leave for the wedding, and then BAM jump to really old Juana and Mauricio, celebrating like their 50th anniversary, then telling us about their wedding in flashbacks... and remembering how some of the people there were dead already. It was very wtf, I was so upset. 😂

But back to Jane, it was okay. And I think a big part of the reason why I'm not going to miss this show is because of how angry I still am about the Michael situation. It ruined season 5 for me and I will never forgive their pettiness.

*It was so odd to see Rafael in bed with the twins and being affectionate with them. It was so rare to see.

*They DID remember the stuff about him being adopted! 😂 I guess it was something they came up with and kept unsolved in case they ever wanted another big twist, but they never needed it so they forgot about it.

*I didn't like Xo going to New York. Shows so often like to pull this shit, having someone move away in the finale or some arbitrary change like that for no good reason. There was no need to break up the Villanueva women at all. I'll pretend it didn't happen.

*I'll also pretend that Mateo wasn't the narrator all along because he was always too insufferable to be the fun narrator.

Finally, I'll say that the thing I'll take away from this show is Petra. Her character grew so much in such a fantastic and believable way, yet she never stopped being fun. And the relationship I'll take away from the show is Jane and Petra. Such a fantastic, realistic, slow burn friendship, and they had so much chemistry. I find them much more interesting that the romantic relationships they both ended up in.

Aaaaan that's a wrap!

[HeatLifer]

On 8/4/2019 at 5:37 AM, cardigirl said:

For me, the entire desire of wishing for Michael and Jane to end up together has more to do with the way they were written and acted then misunderstanding how telenovellas work. Sorry, writers, you made me love them as a couple, don’t chastise me for wanting them together.

Preach. It’s almost like, well, maybe they shouldn’t have sold Michael and Jane so well? Just a thought. But Jennie’s right about one thing: she did follow the formula of a typical telenovela. “Hot guy with abs is girl’s OTP just because!”

On 8/4/2019 at 8:04 AM, cardigirl said:

In this article, I feel that Jennie Snyder Urman may be being a bit disingenuous about the response of the TeamMichael viewers (and a bit condescending as well) but the rest of the interview is nicely done.  Enjoy!

Michael loved cats, was a breakdancer at his own damn wedding, and karaoked to Bruno Mars and she thought we’d root for anyone else? 🤣

[smartymarty]

On 8/18/2019 at 3:57 AM, HeatLifer said:

Michael loved cats, was a breakdancer at his own damn wedding, and karaoked to Bruno Mars and she thought we’d root for anyone else?

He also loved camping and was serious about his police work. What do we know about Rafael? He managed a hotel (much more interesting when Petra was managing) and liked working out? No personality there. Just hot guy.

On 8/16/2019 at 2:26 AM, natyxg said:

I always knew they were endgame and accepted that, but they never called to me in any particular way. So, I wasn't really moved by this episode. I also feel like this big love story full of obstacles that they want to tell me happened... wasn't there, so meh.

S5 just had Raf acting pissy about Jane. I would have loved him had he been mature and trusting about Micheal returning, telling Jane he was confident about her love for him. But no, they had him sulk, a weird tangent into antidepressants, sell real estate no go back to hotel management.... ach! Nothing to like there except his abs.