S03.E06: Household

Umbelina · June 29, 2019

3 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

Yeah, I would like to see Fred have to suck some dick to get an awesome posting to DC. Welcome to the world totally controlled by men, Fred.

Seeing Fred being the underdog to anyone is great.

I keep hoping he is exposed by outrage in Canada over the Holly thing. As I said, Moira could do it, creating enough doubts to leave him hanging on a wall.

Also, what happened to Jezebels? I mean, I appreciate that the show isn't exploiting that too much, but avoiding it altogether is odd, especially because in the book epilogue

Spoiler

they talk about Jezebels clubs all over Gilead, and how it became a big deal, with contests for the best "Jezebel" sort of like a perverted Miss America pageant. Is that part of how Gilead eventually fails?

CouchPotatoNoLife · June 29, 2019

On 6/27/2019 at 7:51 PM, Anela said:

Wait, now they're making Nick out to have been a bad guy all along?? A friend of mine posted something in protest, saying she'll stop watching if that's what they're trying to do.

I know I'm in the minority but I always took Nick to be a bad guy that regretted some of his decisions during the formation of Gilead. I remember the scenes of his backstory in season 1. To me they were inspired by the stories of incels/unemployed/other men who feel they don't have a role in society who resort to violence to compensate for how powerless they feel in society.

I think Nick was an unemployed loser who could not support his loved ones and when told he could be a crusader and feel powerful he jumped at the opportunity. Later his compassion towards June is largely a result of his guilt of his actions. And because he's attracted to her.

The minute they showed Nick was tight with the Commander that controled the eyes I suspected him of being an evil character or at least a character that has done evil in the past.

Edited June 29, 2019 by CouchPotatoNoLife

lavenderblue · June 29, 2019

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Seeing Fred being the underdog to anyone is great.

I keep hoping he is exposed by outrage in Canada over the Holly thing. As I said, Moira could do it, creating enough doubts to leave him hanging on a wall.

Also, what happened to Jezebels? I mean, I appreciate that the show isn't exploiting that too much, but avoiding it altogether is odd, especially because in the book epilogue

Hide contents

they talk about Jezebels clubs all over Gilead, and how it became a big deal, with contests for the best "Jezebel" sort of like a perverted Miss America pageant. Is that part of how Gilead eventually fails?

I assumed Fred hit up Jezebel's for the prostitute he recited that apology speech to a few episodes back, but it's true it's a bit odd they haven't more explicitly referenced it again, even just in the context of the Canada scenes.

CouchPotatoNoLife · June 29, 2019

On 6/25/2019 at 10:06 PM, Umbelina said:

Well, we got a new location anyway.

Good and bad in this one.

Do I care about the Nick mystery? I don't know honestly.

Why on earth would Switzerland want to get into this can of worms? Why are they implying anyone in the world would be sympathetic to this regime? The fuck?

Also, is Canada really that cowardly? I doubt it.

Too much didn't make sense, but I did enjoy the change of scenery.

As a Canadian I'm ashamed to say some of our prime ministers have followed the US blindly. Eg. Stephen Harper following George Bush.

I disagree with most of the posts here that think Gilead is portrayed as unrealistically strong. To me the only realistic way to portray Gilead is at a minimum a great military power. The United States of America has hundreds of thousands of soldiers in each of its four main branches of its armed forces.

All four branches would be significant powers on their own. Eg. The largest Airforce in the world is the United States Air force. The second largest Airforce in the world is the Naval Air wing of the United States Navy. The Marine Corps by itself is larger than the entire Israeli military.

To me the only realistic way Gilead could have been formed is if the Gilead movement had significant amounts of support from within the United States military. Eg. Even if they managed to destroy all of Congress in a single strike, the US still has governors and State legislatures that are part of the continuity of government plan.

Also the fact that the Anchorage government has never tried to reinvade the United States mainland tells me that they do not have control over the hundreds of thousands of US troops stationed overseas. I suspect many of the former generals and admirals of the United States are now commanders with handmaids.

Umbelina · June 29, 2019

54 minutes ago, CouchPotatoNoLife said:

As a Canadian I'm ashamed to say some of our prime ministers have followed the US blindly. Eg. Stephen Harper following George Bush.

I disagree with most of the posts here that think Gilead is portrayed as unrealistically strong. To me the only realistic way to portray Gilead is at a minimum a great military power. The United States of America has hundreds of thousands of soldiers in each of its four main branches of its armed forces.

All four branches would be significant powers on their own. Eg. The largest Airforce in the world is the United States Air force. The second largest Airforce in the world is the Naval Air wing of the United States Navy. The Marine Corps by itself is larger than the entire Israeli military.

To me the only realistic way Gilead could have been formed is if the Gilead movement had significant amounts of support from within the United States military. Eg. Even if they managed to destroy all of Congress in a single strike, the US still has governors and State legislatures that are part of the continuity of government plan.

Also the fact that the Anchorage government has never tried to reinvade the United States mainland tells me that they do not have control over the hundreds of thousands of US troops stationed overseas. I suspect many of the former generals and admirals of the United States are now commanders with handmaids.

I think in weapons it probably still outnumbers other countries by a mile.

As far as the military, I can buy that most soldiers "just follow orders" and the patriotic 9-11 like fervor that did indeed cause us to drop certain freedoms and Gilead had the same thing, only frankly, worse. They blamed the deaths of the executive, judicial, and legislative branches on Islamic Terrorists, so people would have pulled together and the military probably would have taken over via Martial Law.

That they had top military people involved from the beginning of the Coup is rather obvious, I'm sure they are some of the "Commanders" now.

However, I suspect that there have been some rank and file desertions around the vast area of Gilead, and I further assume that some former USA forces decided to fight for the USA, and not for Gilead at some point. Alaska and Hawaii obviously rebelled and fought back from the jump.

Those are the questions the book left dangling, with just a few answers. Those are the questions I want answered.

My question is, is all this "set up" going to pay off with finally getting some of those answers? I seriously hope so, but they need to begin before this season ends, not dangle it for next season.

June, Moira, Emily, hell the whole cast is interesting enough, and telling their tales is OK, but for me, ONLY in the context of the bigger picture now. I want Emily to lead the charge against Gilead. I want Moira to DO something to aid the rebels, I want Luke to take actual action to get Hannah back, hell, why didn't HE go to Switzerland or other countries, why isn't HE rallying support for the resistance?

As for Nick? I can also buy that he's a reformed Gilead guy, and probably also a spy for (WHOM?) Answer the damn question show!

CouchPotatoNoLife · June 29, 2019

24 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think in weapons it probably still outnumbers other countries by a mile.

As far as the military, I can buy that most soldiers "just follow orders" and the patriotic 9-11 like fervor that did indeed cause us to drop certain freedoms and Gilead had the same thing, only frankly, worse. They blamed the deaths of the executive, judicial, and legislative branches on Islamic Terrorists, so people would have pulled together and the military probably would have taken over via Martial Law.

That they had top military people involved from the beginning of the Coup is rather obvious, I'm sure they are some of the "Commanders" now.

However, I suspect that there have been some rank and file desertions around the vast area of Gilead, and I further assume that some former USA forces decided to fight for the USA, and not for Gilead at some point. Alaska and Hawaii obviously rebelled and fought back from the jump.

Those are the questions the book left dangling, with just a few answers. Those are the questions I want answered.

My question is, is all this "set up" going to pay off with finally getting some of those answers? I seriously hope so, but they need to begin before this season ends, not dangle it for next season.

June, Moira, Emily, hell the whole cast is interesting enough, and telling their tales is OK, but for me, ONLY in the context of the bigger picture now. I want Emily to lead the charge against Gilead. I want Moira to DO something to aid the rebels, I want Luke to take actual action to get Hannah back, hell, why didn't HE go to Switzerland or other countries, why isn't HE rallying support for the resistance?

As for Nick? I can also buy that he's a reformed Gilead guy, and probably also a spy for (WHOM?) Answer the damn question show!

The really scary reality is some people would benefit living under Gilead. Some people benefit living under dictatorship because they are the people in charge. I think we like to believe that these types of countries will automatically collapse. I counter with the example of North Korea. Who would have predicted that it would have lasted this long after the end of WWII?

China is an authoritarian dictatorship and is now probably the second most powerful country in the world and the second largest economy. Human beings throughout history have served evil governments (from the perspective of liberal democracies).

The fact that the former US government is stuck in Alaska and Hawaii tells me they have lost control of almost all of their former Naval forces. How did that happen? Did the sons of Jacob somehow manage to destroy 10 + Naval carrier battle groups? To me it's far more likely that most of the military were convinced to join the Gilead movement and they purged the people they thought were loyal to the United States.

The world this show takes place in would be terrifying. Arguably the part I find most unbelievable is that Gilead would respect the Canadian border. The reason North Korea respects the South Korean border is because of their experiences during the Korean War.

Umbelina · June 29, 2019

26 minutes ago, CouchPotatoNoLife said:

The fact that the former US government is stuck in Alaska and Hawaii tells me they have lost control of almost all of their former Naval forces. How did that happen? Did the sons of Jacob somehow manage to destroy 10 + Naval carrier battle groups? To me it's far more likely that most of the military were convinced to join the Gilead movement and they purged the people they thought were loyal to the United States.

They may still have troops, ships, weapons, but would understandably be reluctant to use them on their former citizens, and those people, mothers, sisters, wives, children are kept (for the most part) with Commanders so attacking them, would mean killing the captive Americans.

That map in the spoiler tags above shows several areas on our borders controlled by the rebels,

Spoiler

including most of the west and south coasts, and significant areas on the Canada border. So, getting supplies or even volunteering to serve with the rebels would certainly not be difficult for the male escapees in Canada, it would also be easier for them to be undercover and infiltrate Gilead.

map spoiler only above, not book or other

I think Spy Guy and Nick work together.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Umbelina

CouchPotatoNoLife · June 29, 2019

14 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They may still have troops, ships, weapons, but would understandably be reluctant to use them on their former citizens, and those people, mothers, sisters, wives, children are kept (for the most part) with Commanders so attacking them, would mean killing the captive Americans.

That map in the spoiler tags above shows several areas on our borders controlled by the rebels,

Reveal spoiler

including most of the west and south coasts, and significant areas on the Canada border. So, getting supplies or even volunteering to serve with the rebels would certainly not be difficult for the male escapees in Canada, it would also be easier for them to be undercover and infiltrate Gilead.

map spoiler only above, not book or other

I think Spy Guy and Nick work together.

The US has hundreds of thousands of troops in hundreds of overseas bases around the world. The impression I got is the rebels fighting against Gilead are not directly associated with the former US government. We have seen that the rebels rely on handmaids to smuggle bombs and to perform suicide bombing attacks and former high school chemistry teachers to make improvised explosives.

I have a hard time believing if the Anchorage government still had even a small fraction of the military capabilities of the former US government they would not be on the front lines with the rebels. And that the rebels would not be relying on those tactics.

You make a good point about how it's weird that the government in Anchorage isn't attempting to recruit a military force amongst the American refugees. to me this shows that they are in such a weak position that it's inconceivable for them to even attempt a military solution. I don't think the government in Anchorage has significant military forces under its control. I also don't see how it would have been possible for Gilead to destroy those military forces. The only plausible explanation is those troops have largely been incorporated into Gilead.

Eg. If the Anchorage government still had control of hundreds of thousands of troops they would have transferred those troops into the rebel areas to try to take back American cities.

Umbelina · June 29, 2019

It's a bit like what the Commanders were saying at that one meeting. They have the power via bombs, equipment, drones, etc. to take out all of the rebels now, but what were the words? Something like "It would kill a lot of children and child bearing women" so basically, hold off for now, and stick with ground wars.

Umbelina · June 29, 2019

12 minutes ago, CouchPotatoNoLife said:

The US has hundreds of thousands of troops in hundreds of overseas bases around the world. The impression I got is the rebels fighting against Gilead are not directly associated with the former US government. We have seen that the rebels rely on handmaids to smuggle bombs and to perform suicide bombing attacks and former high school chemistry teachers to make improvised explosives.

I have a hard time believing if the Anchorage government still had even a small fraction of the military capabilities of the former US government they would not be on the front lines with the rebels. And that the rebels would not be relying on those tactics.

You make a good point about how it's weird that the government in Anchorage isn't attempting to recruit a military force amongst the American refugees. to me this shows that they are in such a weak position that it's inconceivable for them to even attempt a military solution. I don't think the government in Anchorage has significant military forces under its control. I also don't see how it would have been possible for Gilead to destroy those military forces. The only plausible explanation is those troops have largely been incorporated into Gilead.

Eg. If the Anchorage government still had control of hundreds of thousands of troops they would have transferred those troops into the rebel areas to try to take back American cities.

They may be doing just that, or simply joining up themselves. I have to assume they are supporting them with equipment, intel, etc.

We just don't know because God knows we have to focus on Emily "adjusting" and June as a new resistance fighter, and Moira twiddling her fingers trying to have sex in Canada, and Luke drinking away, and Serena wavering between trying to do the right thing and being the selfish bitch with baby madness she is, and Janine missing Charlotte and saving her, and Lydia alternately maiming, torturing, or weeping away, and Fred failing endlessly with significant hubris, and Nick's (possibly fertile) wife being drowned in a pool that will have to be drained and cleaned because both she and her lover would have voided their bowels, and the many escapes, foiled or successful *Emily, Moira, Luke, June, silent chick, and now random traumatized walk ons, as well as Joseph and his wife, and now stud Oligarch and his many kids*

I'm not saying I don't care about all of that, but it's not why I was excited for this show.

There HAS to be a blend! They have to start dealing with the epilogue parts of the book, and yes, I realize that is difficult, but tough shit. No one can tell June and the handmaid's story better than Atwood already did. We aren't in First Person anymore. Get on with it.

As I said, it's possible that all of this is setting that up, if so, I will be applauding. I want to see the rebels, and the wars, and Nick could do that. I want to see the "world" reaction, it's WAY past time. I want answers, not just Emmy reels.

Damn I wish Vince Gilligan and his outstanding team were producing/writing/directing this. Sigh.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Umbelina

CouchPotatoNoLife · June 29, 2019

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They may be doing just that, or simply joining up themselves. I have to assume they are supporting them with equipment, intel, etc.

We just don't know because God knows we have to focus on Emily "adjusting" and June as a new resistance fighter, and Moira twiddling her fingers trying to have sex in Canada, and Luke drinking away, and Serena wavering between trying to do the right thing and being the selfish bitch with baby madness she is, and Janine missing Charlotte and saving her, and Lydia alternately maiming, torturing, or weeping away, and Fred failing endlessly with significant hubris, and Nick's (possibly fertile) wife being drowned in a pool that will have to be drained and cleaned because both she and her lover would have voided their bowels, and the many escapes, foiled or successful *Emily, Moira, Luke, June, silent chick, and now random traumatized walk ons, as well as Joseph and his wife, and now stud Oligarch and his many kids*

I'm not saying I don't care about all of that, but it's not why I was excited for this show.

There HAS to be a blend! They have to start dealing with the epilogue parts of the book, and yes, I realize that is difficult, but tough shit. No one can tell June and the handmaid's story better than Atwood already did. We aren't in First Person anymore. Get on with it.

As I said, it's possible that all of this is setting that up, if so, I will be applauding. I want to see the rebels, and the wars, and Nick could do that. I want to see the "world" reaction, it's WAY past time. I want answers, not just Emmy reels.

Damn I wish Vince Gilligan and his outstanding team were producing/writing/directing this. Sigh.

I think eventually the show will get there. But they don't want to end the show too soon. I wonder what the budget of the show is. From my understanding battles are among the most expensive scenes to film.

I do hope to see more of the world reaction to Gilead. The United States is very "Involved" around the globe, and its absence would greatly change the strategic balance of power in almost every region.

Eg. Is NATO even still a viable organization without American involvement?

Edited June 29, 2019 by CouchPotatoNoLife

Umbelina · June 29, 2019

11 minutes ago, CouchPotatoNoLife said:

I think eventually the show will get there. But they don't want to end the show too soon. I wonder what the budget of the show is. From my understanding battles are among the most expensive scenes to film.

I do hope to see more of the world reaction to Gilead. The United States is very "Involved" around the globe, and its absence would greatly change the strategic balance of power in almost every region.

Real battles would be expensive.

This is more like gorilla warfare, snipers, planning scenes among the rebels, Spy Guy communicating with them, arranging ammunition, how the rebel's families are living, things like that. Small boats coming ashore with supplies at night, how they are getting food, watching men help cook, all the things that don't exist in Gilead. Seeing a gay couple again, living openly, fighting, male or female, seeing a variety of styles of worship or atheism accepted.

We don't need tanks and planes and full out traditional warfare scenes, we just need to know who, what, why, how, where, and when things are happening.

So, no, I don't think it would cost that much to do that very well. Seeing Americans still fighting Gilead, being "normal" would be so great. Soldier goes back to where his family is, talks to his wife, who is reading the latest intel and suggesting changes in plans, women manning radio communications systems, other women fighting, others wiring electricity...seeing women as part of the team defending America again, instead of just as baby makers or refugees "adjusting."

I want to see the parts of Gilead where women are still respected and valued for more than their wombs.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Umbelina

Ashforth · June 29, 2019

On 6/28/2019 at 7:25 AM, violet and green said:

I thought it was beautiful, with the sweeping overhead shots, the patternings of the architecture, the Nurembergesque tableaus, and the use of color -- ranked rows of redrobed handmaidens against the whiteness of the re-purposed monuments, the horrors of a gang of stolen children and the mouth rings sewn into the creepy household with its charming pale green walls and tea parties...

The Metropolis-referencing elevators. The designated red kneeling spots like pools of blood. The crucifix rendition of the Washington monument reflected in June's eyeball at the end. Visually, stunning.

What a beautifully written post! A reminder that words can be art. Thank you V&G.

violet and green · June 29, 2019

11 hours ago, alexvillage said:

Second quoted comment: beautiful shots and torture porn. Directing is one of the things that I enjoy in movies and shows but I cannot watch bad writing for too long, so I think I will keep missing the beautiful shots.

When a show is relying on big shots and creative ways of introducing a scene - sometimes they also fail at this - or on shocking images like torture porn, porn porn, in the case of this show the overuse of close ups and slow motion, it is a bad signal.

And if they overwhelm one episode with all the beauty + torture porn, added to the nonsense writing, then it is really bad.

I still don't want to watch it.

It was a different director, who brought her own eye to the rather pallid script. I did not see any torture porn - just one brief shot of the maiden's mouth 'sewn' shut.

That director was not responsible for the inclusion of whatever else has been inflicted upon the women in any or all previous episodes - most of which, in any case, is happening to men and women all over the world currently at any given moment, while female genital mutilation is regularly performed on girls in first world cities...

I was appalled with the direction the show had taken this series, prior to this (see my one previous comment), but I did find much to enjoy in this episode.

HeySandyStrange · June 30, 2019

2 hours ago, CouchPotatoNoLife said:

The US has hundreds of thousands of troops in hundreds of overseas bases around the world. The impression I got is the rebels fighting against Gilead are not directly associated with the former US government. We have seen that the rebels rely on handmaids to smuggle bombs and to perform suicide bombing attacks and former high school chemistry teachers to make improvised explosives.

I have a hard time believing if the Anchorage government still had even a small fraction of the military capabilities of the former US government they would not be on the front lines with the rebels. And that the rebels would not be relying on those tactics

I don't think it's impossible to believe that the remains of the US govt has some military power left. After all, in real life Alaska and Hawaii house large and important military bases. I think the writers are just refusing to confront any of these wider world building issues, since they seemed to be obsessed with June facial close ups and the inner workings of some of the smallest fish in Gilead, excluding the criminally underused Commander Lawrence. It's pretty obvious the writers aren't up for the task and are trying to fool us with angst and "art" to ignore all the many plot holes in this show.

kieyra · June 30, 2019

The show isn’t really interested in explaining its world or its politics, though. It’s only interested in extended closeups of Elisabeth Moss and Yvonne S. I don’t mean this word as an insult, but while “fanwank” theories can be interesting to read, I’d like the show to make a stab at world-building and consistency.

Umbelina · June 30, 2019

1 minute ago, kieyra said:

The show isn’t really interested in explaining its world or its politics, though. It’s only interested in extended closeups of Elisabeth Moss and Yvonne S. I don’t mean this word as an insult, but while “fanwank” theories can be interesting to read, I’d like the show to make a stab at world-building and consistency.

It does extreme close ups on everyone in the cast, all the damn time.

As I said, my Pollyanna side (yes, I do have one) can see that they have indeed "set the table" to serve up the world, the wars, the politics this season, and frankly especially in this episode. For now, I'm hopeful that means they are finally tackling "the rest of the story."

I don't expect Gilead to end anytime soon, but I do want to see the struggle for that, and the resistance, and what "the world" is doing about things. I really want the cast in Canada to become involved in the struggle too, instead of sitting around. Social media or smuggling ammunition, or messages, I don't care what, I just want them to do more than mope around.

showme · June 30, 2019

9 hours ago, Ashforth said:

Yeah, I would like to see Fred have to suck some dick to get an awesome posting to DC. Welcome to the world totally controlled by men, Fred.

You never know, he might even like it. He didn't exactly object when the high commander put his hands on him.

Edited June 30, 2019 by showme

lucindabelle · June 30, 2019

THis show makes no sense. We’re jn a world where iPods and mp3s don’t exists since Luke ia out there with a Walkman. But the whole world accepts the existence of gilead? No way. It is only a few years since gilead even began.

the visuals of headless Abe and the huge cross would have been a lot more effective if the camera hadn’t lingered on them forever.

the mouth staples were scary and though I first thought liquid diet later thought wait. All their teeth will fall out. Why not just take their tongues out? Just as brutal and grounded in reality. Or their vocal cords or something.

I felt that it and the statues were driving the episode. This episode was all imagery: nick being saluted, scary, makes no sense. A cross reflected in her eye. Nuremberg like gathering (this has become a cliche). I don’t watch the show for beautiful artistic film shots.

i don’t know if I want to keep watching.

Edited June 30, 2019 by lucindabelle

alexvillage · June 30, 2019

Gilead as a superpower that absorbed the United States ridiculous military power is absurd. As already pointed out, NATO would have to engage in action against Gilead.

And again, the writers managed to tell a bad story.

At the time the book was written, our Military wasn't as powerful as today, the technology wasn't like it is now. The United States already had a lot of nuclear weapons and yes, it could have destroyed the planet. But this didn't happen.

So, if they are going by the book's time - which they are not - they would have destroyed the whole planet, or engaged in war with several other former allies. This didn't happen.

If they are using the technology and weapons of mass destruction of today, other countries would be afraid of engaging with Gilead, so the commanders would have the upper hand to get the goods they want, even to get more women to become handmaids. We know this is not happening either, so it makes no sense. From the point of view of a super militarized cultist nation, all they have to do is threat to decimate a country to get them favors. But the writers don't engage in the nuances of this possibility either.

Maybe Margaret Atwood left us in the dark on purpose, because it wouldn't make sense for Gilead to simply absorb the powers of the U.S. but still be deprived in so many areas. Or maybe I need to read the final chapter again. My point still is: the writers don't have any idea of what they are doing, maybe that's why the long pauses for close ups. They need to extend things a bit.

AnswersWanted · June 30, 2019

12 hours ago, kieyra said:

The show isn’t really interested in explaining its world or its politics, though. It’s only interested in extended closeups of Elisabeth Moss and Yvonne S. I don’t mean this word as an insult, but while “fanwank” theories can be interesting to read, I’d like the show to make a stab at world-building and consistency.

Hah, you ain’t kidding. This show worries more about stylized shots and actor closeups than decent story telling.

I saw it coming out more and more during season 2, but this season they’ve cranked it up to 100.

Take DC for example, why didn’t they establish it last season? Why didn’t we get a glimpse of it, get any information about it being such a BFD and power hub.

No, last year they cared more about showing June running with wolves and making a point to imply that Gilead was so hard-up for replacement Handmaids, after the center was destroyed, they went into the colonies to grab some.

Yet what do we see this episode? A fucking sea of Handmaids that again implies this huge number that is never consistent.

In season 1 they tried that bullshit of surplus Handmaids on hand to trade to Mexico, then in season 2 they were once again struggling with the numbers after the suicide bomber incident, and now we’re back to Handmaids galore, this show is so inconsistent, even with the simplest of details.

8 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

THis show makes no sense. We’re jn a world where iPods and mp3s don’t exists since Luke ia out there with a Walkman. But the whole world accepts the existence of gilead? No way. It is only a few years since gilead even began.

the visuals of headless Abe and the huge cross would have been a lot more effective if the camera hadn’t lingered on them forever.

the mouth staples were scary and though I first thought liquid diet later thought wait. All their teeth will fall out. Why not just take their tongues out? Just as brutal and grounded in reality. Or their vocal cords or something.

I felt that it and the statues were driving the episode. This episode was all imagery: nick being saluted, scary, makes no sense. A cross reflected in her eye. Nuremberg like gathering (this has become a cliche). I don’t watch the show for beautiful artistic film shots.

i don’t know if I want to keep watching.

Preach.

I definitely think the show dropped the ball when it came to actually figuring out how much of the “real world” they could and should keep, and which parts needed adjusting and changing to truly make Gilead a reasonable possibility for this current generation.

I think they should have had Gilead established after nuclear war, or some other huge worldwide crisis and military breakdown that rendered all countries fairly helpless to help themselves, let alone anyone else.

That would allow for the rise of Gilead unhindered and also explain why the rest of the world sits idly by without any type of engagement.

This world could truly only exist in a dystopian type landscape, but these writers just didn’t plan that part out and they want to keep things so current, military and technology wise, it leaves the story completely unbelievable and unbalanced.

I completely agree with you that they seem more concerned about making everything look like a French art film than just telling a poignant, moving story.

It’s all style over substance and I hate that, especially when we could easily have both, Atwood proved that herself, these writers have no excuse for the shit they put out.

2 hours ago, alexvillage said:

Gilead as a superpower that absorbed the United States ridiculous military power is absurd. As already pointed out, NATO would have to engage in action against Gilead.

And again, the writers managed to tell a bad story.

At the time the book was written, our Military wasn't as powerful as today, the technology wasn't like it is now. The United States already had a lot of nuclear weapons and yes, it could have destroyed the planet. But this didn't happen.

So, if they are going by the book's time - which they are not - they would have destroyed the whole planet, or engaged in war with several other former allies. This didn't happen.

If they are using the technology and weapons of mass destruction of today, other countries would be afraid of engaging with Gilead, so the commanders would have the upper hand to get the goods they want, even to get more women to become handmaids. We know this is not happening either, so it makes no sense. From the point of view of a super militarized cultist nation, all they have to do is threat to decimate a country to get them favors. But the writers don't engage in the nuances of this possibility either.

Maybe Margaret Atwood left us in the dark on purpose, because it wouldn't make sense for Gilead to simply absorb the powers of the U.S. but still be deprived in so many areas. Or maybe I need to read the final chapter again. My point still is: the writers don't have any idea of what they are doing, maybe that's why the long pauses for close ups. They need to extend things a bit.

I always love your posts, heh, this is so much “preach” for me.

I cannot agree more, these writers wanted to have it both ways, a weak but still imposing Gilead who can both be shunned but also engaged by the rest of the world whenever it fits the plot.

One second Gilead is struggling to get oranges, the next they can trade handmaids to Mexico, all the while there’s this reported war going on in their backyard but that doesn’t seem to deplete them too badly that they cannot still run DC and grow more handmaids by the bushel.

This is a society that has turned away, mostly, from technology and science, that’s suffering a fertility crisis, a food shortage, a civil war, and these mf-eras can still haggle with the Swiss and Canada because...?

Like you said, if Gilead is still such a military force to be reckoned with, then why the hell haven’t they forced Canada to immediately return most, if not all, of the refugees?

They know some women have managed to get away, why wouldn’t they earmark those who could be returned to handmaid service, like Moira or Emily, and the others could be put to work in the colonies or Jezebel’s. Are we supposed to believe Canada holds the advantage over Gilead to make this impossible? But they can recruit the Swiss..it’s just madness.

Why aren’t they swinging for the fences when it comes to diplomacy at this point, what do they have to lose? They should have no issue making it clear that if a country doesn’t help them they should prepare for x, because the military options should be fairly limitless. Why would they just wait and make videos when they should hold a huge advantage over much of this fractured world by now?

And since the civil war is still ongoing through all of this, then what’s left of the US must still have plenty of powerful weaponry themselves to keep Gilead on their toes, or they should have been obliterated long ago.

The story is that the Sons of Jacob splintered the government and was able to divvy up the military, and they obviously came out a bigger winner than the other side because they got goddamn DC and we see how the show is implying how powerful and secure that area is.

The plot holes just get bigger and bigger every episode.

And don’t get me started on where the fuck is China and Russia while all of this is going on. Are we supposed to believe neither of those two would have invaded by now? Attempted a takeover of what’s left of their greatest nemesis of a country, aside from each other? Especially if our military is still buzzing along?

WW3 should have been the first obstacle that emerged regarding the dawn of Gilead, but I guess the writers just didn’t care about all of that so...

*sigh*

Edited June 30, 2019 by AnswersWanted
Had a little more to complain about, heh.

alexvillage · June 30, 2019

14 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

The plot holes just get bigger and bigger every episode

They do. And to think I was so excited about the possibility of a Underground Railroad of Marthas that would develop into a real story. Instead we got June ordering them around for a day, then nothing. Same with Emily. They could expand on her need to heal and build up her relationship with her wife and son, and maybe the urge to fight for the people who were left behind. She was a rebel in Gilead. So many possibilities for one character. Not to mention the waste of Samira Wiley. Seriously, I would love to see the scripts she gets for the character's lines. Probably only a couple of pages long for all three seasons so far.

AnswersWanted · June 30, 2019

1 hour ago, alexvillage said:

They do. And to think I was so excited about the possibility of a Underground Railroad of Marthas that would develop into a real story. Instead we got June ordering them around for a day, then nothing. Same with Emily. They could expand on her need to heal and build up her relationship with her wife and son, and maybe the urge to fight for the people who were left behind. She was a rebel in Gilead. So many possibilities for one character. Not to mention the waste of Samira Wiley. Seriously, I would love to see the scripts she gets for the character's lines. Probably only a couple of pages long for all three seasons so far.

I completely agree with you.

I actually thought, silly me, that they were going to use Rita’s involvement with the resistance to really explore that side of Gilead a lot more during this season. That we would get a good look at how the Marthas operate and even interact with Canada, helping to smuggle out information or people.

But why give us that when they instead showcase everyone’s nostrils with dramatic flair or film half the show in pitch blackness for “maximum effect”.

And triple yes about Emily and Moira. Those two should be front and center, having teamed up to aid the resistance openly, loudly, and angrily. And they clearly aren’t the only ones now in Canada who can lend their voices and personal tales of horror about Gilead to efforts to bring down this regime.

For instance, Luke didn’t have to become a broken lush. He could have morphed into a resistance fighter, actually showing his growth from the weak man who failed his family in Gilead and who was now determined to bring the bastards down at all costs.

Why is it that the show can focus on TV producer Fred getting his message out, and managing to make inroads because of that, but we haven’t gotten one single scene of anyone formerly trapped in a Gilead on TV doing sit down tell alls. Mini documentaries would still be a thing, books are still being published in the free world, hell, even a pamphlet would be a step up at this point.

How is it that we saw these characters mobilizing resistance efforts and rebelling more in Gilead than now that they have total freedom again? That makes absolutely no sense, unless you just have discount writing that cannot be bothered with logic or common sense that assists actual plot development and world building within the show.

It’s all just a bunch of something, something, “reasons”, torture porn, the end.

Edited June 30, 2019 by AnswersWanted

CouchPotatoNoLife · June 30, 2019

5 hours ago, alexvillage said:

Gilead as a superpower that absorbed the United States ridiculous military power is absurd. As already pointed out, NATO would have to engage in action against Gilead.

And again, the writers managed to tell a bad story.

At the time the book was written, our Military wasn't as powerful as today, the technology wasn't like it is now. The United States already had a lot of nuclear weapons and yes, it could have destroyed the planet. But this didn't happen.

So, if they are going by the book's time - which they are not - they would have destroyed the whole planet, or engaged in war with several other former allies. This didn't happen.

If they are using the technology and weapons of mass destruction of today, other countries would be afraid of engaging with Gilead, so the commanders would have the upper hand to get the goods they want, even to get more women to become handmaids. We know this is not happening either, so it makes no sense. From the point of view of a super militarized cultist nation, all they have to do is threat to decimate a country to get them favors. But the writers don't engage in the nuances of this possibility either.

Maybe Margaret Atwood left us in the dark on purpose, because it wouldn't make sense for Gilead to simply absorb the powers of the U.S. but still be deprived in so many areas. Or maybe I need to read the final chapter again. My point still is: the writers don't have any idea of what they are doing, maybe that's why the long pauses for close ups. They need to extend things a bit.

Perhaps the simplest answer to all of this is Margaret Atwood was more focused on the social issues of female enslavement then the geopolitical reality of the world.

I will say that you are incorrect about the claim that the United States of America wasn't a superpower in 1985. The us became a global power after it defeated Spain in the Spanish-American War. by 1985 the United States of America was indisputably a superpower, no historian would argue otherwise.

I just uploaded a chart of NATO military spending. you can see that the United States spends far more than every other country in NATO combined. If you look up military personnel among NATO countries you will also see that the United States has more military personnel than every other country in NATO combined. In many ways NATO for the United States is not so much a defense treaty as it is a political organization to add a veil of legitimacy to your wars and military spending. And also a way for you to encroach into the Baltic states. Eg. My country of Canada is far more reliant on the United States for defense then vice versa.

If Gilead actually happened in real life. NATO would not intervene, because NATO would be unable to. Any force that could defeat the US Military would be an opponent the rest of NATO could not handle. Worse if the US Military were the instigators of a coup NATO's position against them would be even more tenuous. Eg. The fear at that point would be Gilead invading Canada.

Edited June 30, 2019 by CouchPotatoNoLife

Brn2bwild · June 30, 2019

7 hours ago, alexvillage said:

Gilead as a superpower that absorbed the United States ridiculous military power is absurd. As already pointed out, NATO would have to engage in action against Gilead.

And even if it were, Canada has already accepted countless Gilead refugees and there has been no military action. We're supposed to believe this is the first time a handmaid smuggles her baby out of Gilead? Why has Canada been allowed to get away with having refugees right near the border until now?

alexvillage · June 30, 2019

1 hour ago, CouchPotatoNoLife said:

I will say that you are incorrect about the claim that the United States of America wasn't a superpower in 1985. The us became a global power after it defeated Spain in the Spanish-American War. by 1985 the United States of America was indisputably a superpower, no historian would argue otherwise.

I meant the spending in military and intelligence were not at the same levels of today. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

1 hour ago, CouchPotatoNoLife said:

I just uploaded a chart of NATO military spending. you can see that the United States spends far more than every other country in NATO combined. If you look up military personnel among NATO countries you will also see that the United States has more military personnel than every other country in NATO combined. In many ways NATO for the United States is not so much a defense treaty as it is a political organization to add a veil of legitimacy to your wars and military spending. And also a way for you to encroach into the Baltic states. Eg. My country of Canada is far more reliant on the United States for defense then vice versa.

And that's why it doesn't make sense. If Gilead has all the power that The U.S. had, they also had all the leverage to get whatever they wanted instead of simply trying to get deals with Mexico. We know that Gilead has shortage of food. Nonsense writing.

kieyra · June 30, 2019

3 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

It’s all just a bunch of something, something, “reasons”, torture porn, the end.

Ten seasons’ worth, if the showrunner has his way. How do you get ten seasons? Lots of torture porn and extended, dialogue-free closeups of your award-winning actresses.

I remember in season one when this show seemed so important and terrifying and relevant.

CouchPotatoNoLife · June 30, 2019

2 hours ago, alexvillage said:

I meant the spending in military and intelligence were not at the same levels of today. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

And that's why it doesn't make sense. If Gilead has all the power that The U.S. had, they also had all the leverage to get whatever they wanted instead of simply trying to get deals with Mexico. We know that Gilead has shortage of food. Nonsense writing.

I agree Gilead is portrayed as too weak IMO. It either has to be a superpower or it's unbelievable that it could ever replace the United States government. The only logic in my mind I can come up with is that maybe Gilead is isolationist. I just find it odd the how the government in Anchorage has never attempted to retake the mainland United States with their overseas troops. That fact along with the tactics of the rebels (they use former highschool chemistry teachers to make bombs) suggests that most of the former military power of the United States transferred to Gilead. I can't imagine the sons of Jacob managed to destroy those military forces, so the only explanation of why they don't seem to be in the control of the Anchorage government is that they are under the control of Gilead.

However that creates the additional problem of it now being unrealistic for Canada to be so supportive of the Anchorage government. If Gilead even had a quarter of the former United States military capabilities, that would represent a huge threat to Canada. Under military threats I could see Canada extraditing Americans to gilead to appease their government.

But I don't think that's the kind of show the showrunners wanted to make. I think the showrunners wanted a show to explore what would happen in a society where women lost all rights.

Edited June 30, 2019 by CouchPotatoNoLife

madpsych78 · June 30, 2019

I don't believe Nick is evil, and here's why: We've only been fed information about that from the Swiss and from Serena. The Swiss are political, and Serena is evil. Why would we expect either of them to tell the truth to June?

CouchPotatoNoLife · June 30, 2019

1 minute ago, madpsych78 said:

I don't believe Nick is evil, and here's why: We've only been fed information about that from the Swiss and from Serena. The Swiss are political, and Serena is evil. Why would we expect either of them to tell the truth to June?

Do you remember in season 1 when it was revealed that Nick was close to the commander that controled the eyes?

Why did that Commander seem to have a high opinion of Nick? To me it suggests that Nick did somethings to prove himself to that Commander. I don't necessarily think Nick is an evil character. I do think he did some evil things in his past that he's now ashamed of.

Miles · June 30, 2019

On 6/28/2019 at 5:16 AM, AnswersWanted said:

For me it’s just annoying when those like Lydia, who are just as cruel and abusive in different ways, find that “one step too far” that makes them uncomfortable or angry or sad, etc. That’s the same bullshit they tried to pull with Serena.

Lydia often tortures “her girls” with cattle prods, has ordered limbs and eyes removed, she’s burned them, beaten them, she has no place to blubber over this cruel, unforgiving system now.

Yes, but I think Lydia sees these as necessary evils to save "her girl's" souls. Punishment is there to correct bad behaviour that would prevent them from getting into heaven. She would probably approve of muting a handmaid if it was a punishment for some particular sin, but in Washington all handmaids seem to get their mouths ringed up as a matter of course. That she doesn't approve of, mutilating pious handmaids who've done nothing wrong.

alexvillage · June 30, 2019

Going back to what I said before, about the missing opportunity concerning "Marthas' Underground" - I just read the prologue of a new book on politics. It is a little summary of, among other things, how the Underground Railroad was one of the pieces that helped the abolitionists start what would become the Civil War that ended slavery (the fact that there is so much still to be done is another story).

The slaves that escaped the south told their stories up north and public opinion started to change. Why aren't the people who escaped Gilead telling their stories? Why can't the writers use this to actually tell a story that is not full of holes, that makes sense - and use the talent they are wasting? Then Fred and Serena would not be on TV, with the sex slave standing in the corner, as if they can claim anything from anyone.

Umbelina · June 30, 2019

12 hours ago, alexvillage said:

So, if they are going by the book's time - which they are not - they would have destroyed the whole planet, or engaged in war with several other former allies. This didn't happen.

12 hours ago, alexvillage said:

Gilead as a superpower that absorbed the United States ridiculous military power is absurd. As already pointed out, NATO would have to engage in action against Gilead.

Except they WERE citizens of the USA. It was a Coup. Coups happen, even in powerful countries. At best it was a "civil war" and a great trick of initially blaming the Islamists for the murders, having key/top military commanders as part of their ranks. So first propoganda and giving "the people" a hate target in this case women and in the book

Spoiler

POC to blame and HATE. Hating others for your problems is tried and true, and certainly not outdated or unuseful to people who want political power, as we see all the time.

, then religious fever, then assassinations, then Martial Law and suspensions of rights, then taking over for the good of the country, by the powerful "leaders" who were left alive.

It's very doubtful NATO would engage in an internal civil war, by a nation that even they probably believed had been attacked (at least at first.)

Umbelina · June 30, 2019

3 hours ago, CouchPotatoNoLife said:

I agree Gilead is portrayed as too weak IMO. It either has to be a superpower or it's unbelievable that it could ever replace the United States government. The only logic in my mind I can come up with is that maybe Gilead is isolationist. I just find it odd the how the government in Anchorage has never attempted to retake the mainland United States with their overseas troops. That fact along with the tactics of the rebels (they use former highschool chemistry teachers to make bombs) suggests that most of the former military power of the United States transferred to Gilead. I can't imagine the sons of Jacob managed to destroy those military forces, so the only explanation of why they don't seem to be in the control of the Anchorage government is that they are under the control of Gilead.

However that creates the additional problem of it now being unrealistic for Canada to be so supportive of the Anchorage government. If Gilead even had a quarter of the former United States military capabilities, that would represent a huge threat to Canada. Under military threats I could see Canada extraditing Americans to gilead to appease their government.

But I don't think that's the kind of show the showrunners wanted to make. I think the showrunners wanted a show to explore what would happen in a society where women lost all rights.

Oh I think what's left of the loyal USA citizens ARE fighting, and aiding, internally and of course from Alaska and Hawaii. I just want to see that. That map shows just how much of the continental USA is in rebel hands still.

Once they all figured out it wasn't Islamic terrorism, and what this Religious Conservative order intended? People DID fight back, even if some of them may have agreed that "being green" was important for the planet, and even if they were worried about the lack of births.

Gilead (even in 1985) had serious nukes/weapons/war machines. Of course the rest of the world was concerned and hesitant to engage with them.

I agree that was Atwood's intent, and it made for a great first season. However, I have almost no faith in these showrunners anymore. They see stars and fame and money, and had the hubris to boast of 10 seasons. THEN they basically had everyone run in place and completely lost continuity last season. No. World build or get out. Better? Get out and turn it over to a capable team.

(formatting issues, I keep losing posts today with multiple quotes so I am just going to respond one post at a time here.)

Edited June 30, 2019 by Umbelina

Umbelina · June 30, 2019

5 hours ago, alexvillage said:

I meant the spending in military and intelligence were not at the same levels of today. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

And that's why it doesn't make sense. If Gilead has all the power that The U.S. had, they also had all the leverage to get whatever they wanted instead of simply trying to get deals with Mexico. We know that Gilead has shortage of food. Nonsense writing.

They are short of food, the USA imports a hell of a lot of food, and much or their "growing areas" are either kaput because of radiation poisoning, or still in rebel hands. The world has boycotted them as far as any trade, and frankly, what do they have to trade besides masses of weapons, including nukes, that they don't want used?

The Mexico story was a travesty, they should have never shoehorned that in. Ridiculous! Made worse by this episode then showing masses of handmaids!

Umbelina · June 30, 2019

9 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

I completely agree with you.

I actually thought, silly me, that they were going to use Rita’s involvement with the resistance to really explore that side of Gilead a lot more during this season. That we would get a good look at how the Marthas operate and even interact with Canada, helping to smuggle out information or people.

But why give us that when they instead showcase everyone’s nostrils with dramatic flair or film half the show in pitch blackness for “maximum effect”.

And triple yes about Emily and Moira. Those two should be front and center, having teamed up to aid the resistance openly, loudly, and angrily. And they clearly aren’t the only ones now in Canada who can lend their voices and personal tales of horror about Gilead to efforts to bring down this regime.

For instance, Luke didn’t have to become a broken lush. He could have morphed into a resistance fighter, actually showing his growth from the weak man who failed his family in Gilead and who was now determined to bring the bastards down at all costs.

Why is it that the show can focus on TV producer Fred getting his message out, and managing to make inroads because of that, but we haven’t gotten one single scene of anyone formerly trapped in a Gilead on TV doing sit down tell alls. Mini documentaries would still be a thing, books are still being published in the free world, hell, even a pamphlet would be a step up at this point.

How is it that we saw these characters mobilizing resistance efforts and rebelling more in Gilead than now that they have total freedom again? That makes absolutely no sense, unless you just have discount writing that cannot be bothered with logic or common sense that assists actual plot development and world building within the show.

It’s all just a bunch of something, something, “reasons”, torture porn, the end.

(Kind of taking this one point at a time, because some I wholeheartedly agree with, and other points I don't quite see it that way)

The Marthas Resistance

I think they've shown quite a lot, both last season and this, and I absolutely think they will continue to tell that story of deep-inside Gilead resistance. They need to show more than just this though. They need to show, as you mention, the fascinating new twist, people escaping not to Canada, but to JOIN the main resistance fighters! Credit where it's due, they made strides there. We saw them set fire to houses as a ploy, and successfully get Emily out, and Holly. We saw an operation with June learning. We see, but don't understand (yet) Lawrence's involvement.

Emily, Moira, Luke, Social Media, News

I agree that it's bullshit they haven't done anything to help Gilead. I've been shouting it from the rooftops here since last season. They have free access to news agencies around the world, they have social media and YouTube, they have a lot of dirt to share. They CAN travel and do speaking engagements. Why are they doing nothing? It makes NO sense to me at all, neither does Luke haranguing the Canadians.

I disagree that they are the only valuable actors/stories on screen though. It's a great cast, but they are all given basically "run in place" shit to do. As is June.

Why haven't we had one damn scene where they are watching world news**, or discussing a newspaper article deriding Gilead, or even talking about what is, or could be done. Bullshit they aren't out there, and it's completely unrealistic to believe that none of the escapees are even bothering to keep up on it.

Why isn't Luke joining the resistance there? He's a guy, he could blend in enough to get to the forces, OR he could be lobbying other countries for weapons, aid, etc. OR he could actually do something to free his daughter. One leaked map showed a large resistance group

Spoiler

near Maine

for example.

Why isn't Moira exposing Jezebels? That would be a huge issue for the world press cartoonists to mock, and serious writers to explore, AND it would be a bombshell in Gilead, at least among the wives.

I do think the writers, until this episode, were better with continuity this season than last, but now they've thrown it out the window.

The hopeful signs I see?

More locations (and I want to spend time in DC)

Table setting for a lot of things including the whole (finally!) "world" involvement with the Swiss at least. Nick's story could finally be interesting, if we see his double agent side, and if we see how the resistance is doing in the wars. Spy Guy was back! We could learn so much from him, and I hope we do, is he involved with getting supplies and weapons to the resistance (USA) forces?

Both new commanders are a breath of fresh air as well, and again, the possibilities to see more of the world through their informed eyes is present now.

Is the showrunner up to serving a great banquet at that set table? Probably not, but maybe?

ETA **

We did have one scene of them watching the Canada protests when Fred visited on the news, but who cares? They are there. I meant the wider world, and about more than one local protest.

Edited June 30, 2019 by Umbelina
added stuff

Umbelina · June 30, 2019

1 hour ago, alexvillage said:

Going back to what I said before, about the missing opportunity concerning "Marthas' Underground" - I just read the prologue of a new book on politics. It is a little summary of, among other things, how the Underground Railroad was one of the pieces that helped the abolitionists start what would become the Civil War that ended slavery (the fact that there is so much still to be done is another story).

The slaves that escaped the south told their stories up north and public opinion started to change. Why aren't the people who escaped Gilead telling their stories? Why can't the writers use this to actually tell a story that is not full of holes, that makes sense - and use the talent they are wasting? Then Fred and Serena would not be on TV, with the sex slave standing in the corner, as if they can claim anything from anyone.

Exactly.

It's just bizarre to me that they keep avoiding the obvious with this show. I don't need or want to see Luke or Moira in their everyday lives doing jack shit about Gilead, never even having a conversation about possibilities.

Emily, I give her a pass for now, she JUST got there, but if all we are going to see is Emily's endless adjustments and reentry? Boo. Her character is smart, educated, she would DO something.

They would rather keeps all the actors dealing with emotions rather than bring in the big picture for them. I do see signs of hope here though in this relatively disastrous episode.

Instead we will probably get another in depth look into a character's past soon. A Martha, the new handmaid, or more likely Nick or Aunt Lydia.

I DO NOT CARE.

I want to see forward movement. It's past time.

Umbelina · June 30, 2019

6 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

And even if it were, Canada has already accepted countless Gilead refugees and there has been no military action. We're supposed to believe this is the first time a handmaid smuggles her baby out of Gilead? Why has Canada been allowed to get away with having refugees right near the border until now?

Probably because Gilead is so desperate for trade, and they keep trying to negotiate with Canada as a step to that, so they don't want to antagonize their nearest white neighbor.

AnswersWanted · July 1, 2019

7 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

And even if it were, Canada has already accepted countless Gilead refugees and there has been no military action. We're supposed to believe this is the first time a handmaid smuggles her baby out of Gilead? Why has Canada been allowed to get away with having refugees right near the border until now?

The more these points get rehashed the more annoyed I become at these writers. How can they not see what we all see so clearly? Why can’t they get their acts together and figure out their current plot devices and storyline directions insult our intelligence too often? It’s not a crime to want to see a little cohesion and actual effort put in to this.

They want these countries to be both terrified of retaliation from each other but yet brave enough to resist or defy one another the next second. It’s truly enough to give you writers’ whiplash.

Gilead can’t possibly be willing to piss off Canada by trying to use the Swiss as a negotiator while implying Canada is currently holding one of their kids captive, unless Gilead is secure in the knowledge this act of defiance that they’ve never displayed before, not to such an extent anyway, would go unpunished.

So why is that? Better yet how can that be? What has given Gilead so much chutzpah to be so bold and daring? Remember in season 2 how Canada basically drop kicked Fred and Serena out once the letters were exposed, but now it’s as if that never happened either,

Of course the best reason we’ve been given for all of this back and forth between Gilead and Canada so far is “‘cause season 3 gotta season 3”.

7 hours ago, alexvillage said:

I meant the spending in military and intelligence were not at the same levels of today. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

And that's why it doesn't make sense. If Gilead has all the power that The U.S. had, they also had all the leverage to get whatever they wanted instead of simply trying to get deals with Mexico. We know that Gilead has shortage of food. Nonsense writing.

Precisely. The writers have been so stubborn and determined to have it both ways, and they flip flop depending on the episode and what it’s all about. Then they expect to be patted on the back for a job well done. Ffs, these are the same people, mostly, from season 1, did they all just get amnesia?

7 hours ago, kieyra said:

Ten seasons’ worth, if the showrunner has his way. How do you get ten seasons? Lots of torture porn and extended, dialogue-free closeups of your award-winning actresses.

I remember in season one when this show seemed so important and terrifying and relevant.

I still find that so shockingly laughable that this bunch could even dream up making it to 10 seasons. Hah I say, HAH!

I remember that too; when the story being told was gripping, riveting, surprising, mesmerizing, and heartbreaking. Seeing just how far it has fallen is really a sad affair for me.

I never thought Atwood needed to write another book, but after what this show has done to butcher her genius story, I’m glad whatever they do with this mess it truly won’t be the last of THT.

4 hours ago, CouchPotatoNoLife said:

But I don't think that's the kind of show the showrunners wanted to make. I think the showrunners wanted a show to explore what would happen in a society where women lost all rights.

I think they could have totally gotten away with following the book’s given script regarding that issue if they had intended to keep the show to 1, maybe 2 seasons max, but the show overstepped.

Atwood didn’t world build so much, so it was up to them to come up with a lot of additional info for further seasons, but they just haven’t done that yet;

They decided to open up the world but they haven’t bothered to give us any direction or guidelines. We’re basically watching blindly, and anything can happen because this world is so unfinished and unpolished. I think they surprise themselves with half the ideas they cone up with. And they’re awful at recalling old plots and storylines it appears as well.

3 hours ago, Miles said:

Yes, but I think Lydia sees these as necessary evils to save "her girl's" souls. Punishment is there to correct bad behaviour that would prevent them from getting into heaven. She would probably approve of muting a handmaid if it was a punishment for some particular sin, but in Washington all handmaids seem to get their mouths ringed up as a matter of course. That she doesn't approve of, mutilating pious handmaids who've done nothing wrong.

Yeah, I don’t disagree with you about her personal reasons for thinking and acting as she does, it’s just still irksome to me, heh.

She is still harming these women, sometimes in even worse ways, but yet still she feels she has a superior moral high ground for “x” reason and she, as you said, doesn’t view her inhuman cruelty as bad, just as punishment. Gilead is the land of self righteous hypocrites, Lydia is just one of many.

But I will always enjoy Ann playing her, she really captures what makes the character tick, and while I hope that she eventually gets her just desserts in the end, she’s still one of the most intriguing and interesting characters. Definitely I pick her over Serena Joy at this point for a villainess to the story.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

(Kind of taking this one point at a time, because some I wholeheartedly agree with, and other points I don't quite see it that way)

I get where you’re coming from, but I just don’t see the same hopeful progress as you do, at least not up to this point.

I feel like the show right now is just dragging along lifelessly. I do see all that could be going on, as many of my posts earlier covered, but I see little to none improvements and the show is halfway over.

I also don’t see things taking a big, sudden turn either at this point, not with the way the show runners are carrying on and speaking proudly about this season. They just aren’t seeing all the massive flaws and letdowns that many of us are.

Personally I don’t really rank the actors' as much as I am ranking the characters, and compared to June or Fred or Serena, I would much rather see Emily or Moira or Rita or others right now. I got my fill of the gruesome threesome during the past 2 seasons, I am ready for some new scenery and characters.

I wouldn’t mind balancing seeing more of Canada as well as DC and Hawaii or get a glimpse of what’s going down in Europe, even if it’s mostly video or through print.

I definitely think we could have Gilead on full display while involving other stories and situations outside of it that are truly interesting and improve the whole setup for the show.

I don't think we have to be so limited to either this happens or that happens. If we had decently creative writers, it should be fairly easy to accomplish. But that seems to be what we’re lacking the most.

They can’t balance world building and imaginative storylines for shit. Try want to tell the story without first laying a solid foundation so of course everything then crumbles and falls apart after the fact.

Edited July 1, 2019 by AnswersWanted

Umbelina · July 1, 2019

@AnswersWanted As I said in an earlier post? I do have my Pollyanna "hopeful" side.

In absurd ways though, they have managed to "set the table" here. That's why I'm holding on to some hope for the show itself.

Right now, via multiple stories, we have all the pieces in place to truly expand this world, which is what they SHOULD have been doing last season, but moving on. *Or at least I hope they will* do you see what I see about the sets ups they put out there, stronger in this (crappy continuity wise) episode, but also during other scenes this season?

I can't believe they would do it if they don't have a follow through planned though.

Although I can easily believe they will continue to just tell emmy worthy vignettes in the Canada stories. More touchy feely stuff with Emily trying to adjust, Luke being furious about Holly and his daughter, and impotently frustrated about this child thing, PROBABLY a child swap offered (guessing) Holly for Hannah, and more BS, more crap about Moira getting her groove back, or trying to, and talking to new refugees.

I DO NOT CARE.

I don't believe that none of them wouldn't be involved with the world at large, scouring newspapers and TV, and social media, having blogs, writing to other countries, visiting Diplomatic Embassies, making YouTubes. Joining the resistance, talking to spy guy, moving to France, or Hawaii.

Much like June's story? They are just running in place, or have been for most of the show.

Did you ever take an acting class? That's what this writing reminds me of. Great little stand alone "scenes" to play out, that may be, and are in fact, touching and cool and riveting, but which add almost nothing to the overall story. Oh! And if they contradict continuity? THEY DON'T CARE.

That worked in a first person book, because June only knew as much as she could overhear or see, so the tale was told from a very limited perspective, until the somewhat informative epilogue of the book.

This show hasn't ever been all first person. They have multiple perspectives, and have squandered them, deliberately, lazily, and in an obvious attempt at dragging this out.

What I would give for Vince Gilligan's team to take over this show. Can you imagine how good it could be? Continuity and overall arcs experts, great cinematography, great and fleshed out characters behaving logically within their frame of reference. A team that CARES about quality, and knows how to do both the angst and the suspense in a comprehensive story.

mtlchick · July 1, 2019

On 6/26/2019 at 7:04 AM, AnswersWanted said:

If there's no nude cheeks shot I will revolt passionately.

You don't just waste Meloni ass, it's sacrilegious, goddamnit.

Blessed be the man with cake for days, amen.

After a pretty long and tough weekend, this post made me laugh so hard that I'm coughing. Thank you for that. And so very true. It will be my motivation to get through the nonsense I'm currently watching.

I LOVED the first season. I was ok with the second season, though it was slightly more good and bad. This season is...well...why? I'm trying to figure out how June has a lot more leeway when 99.9% of other handmaids would have been killed a long time ago. And not she has a lot of power to wield anyway. Shows like this and 13 Reasons Why are becoming a trend where after going through the source material, you find ANY reason to keep it going only to fail at so many levels. I have an idea what the endgame will eventually be but this is becoming a very dragged out way to even get to the fringes of that endgame. Which will make me tune out a lot faster.

Callaphera · July 1, 2019

I know that this season of Handmaid's was filmed awhile ago but I couldn't help snort laughing at the shot of June (and then Commander Waterford) framed with the giant angel wings of the statue. "Hey guys! The wing shot worked so well with GoT, we should do the same!"

I honestly have no idea what they're trying to accomplish this season or what the through story is but I appreciate that Nick and June still have so much plot armour that they can be at a Grand High Poobah Commander's house in probably the most tightly secured city in Gilead... and make out in the garden like fools. Also that June and Serena can have a shouting match in a very echo-y place with absolutely no guards around but, like, twenty feet away is a giant collection of Handmaids, Commander Waterford, and cameras.

Umbelina · July 1, 2019

23 minutes ago, Callaphera said:

I know that this season of Handmaid's was filmed awhile ago but I couldn't help snort laughing at the shot of June (and then Commander Waterford) framed with the giant angel wings of the statue. "Hey guys! The wing shot worked so well with GoT, we should do the same!"

I honestly have no idea what they're trying to accomplish this season or what the through story is but I appreciate that Nick and June still have so much plot armour that they can be at a Grand High Poobah Commander's house in probably the most tightly secured city in Gilead... and make out in the garden like fools. Also that June and Serena can have a shouting match in a very echo-y place with absolutely no guards around but, like, twenty feet away is a giant collection of Handmaids, Commander Waterford, and cameras.

Agree that the writers are complete idiots.

I will point out though, that almost every single character on this show has "plot armor" it's most certainly not just June.

Serena, Moira, Luke, Emily, Janeen, Fred, Nick, hell, even baby Charlotte didn't die. They have all been "saved from certain death" multiple times.

June running outside, hair loose and shiny though? Was ridiculous, as well as making out with Nick under the street lamps. It was about as believable as Moira attacking an Aunt and not being killed for that and for escaping, and instead ending up at Jezebels where she apparently effortlessly just stole a car, escaping all roadblocks, and hiked to Canada presumably when the car ran out of gas. Or as believable as Janeen and Emily escaping the nuclear clean up colonies uninjured because "there weren't enough handmaids" when we JUST saw probably thousands in DC. Or Luke and Erin being the only survivors to make it across the border, or Luke, with a gunshot would, miraculously has his ambulance crash, then promptly runs into a doctor after hiking around with a gunshot would.

Serena and Fred should both be long dead, at the very least Fred should be. He mucks up Canada, he's off to Jezebels all the time, he has handmaids committing suicide, and then all the shit June does. His wife burned down his house. He ferries June to see her daughter, and that family KNOWS that.

Shall I begin on Nick?

This show is all "PERIL!" and then "just kidding" in the next episode, and it's for all of them, not just June.

June's pregnancy and ability to manipulate Fred and Serena, and then her luck falling into Emily's luck (Commander Lawrence) are at least slightly believable at times.

Shouting in the Lincoln is not.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Umbelina

Lily H · July 1, 2019

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 1:06 AM, Umbelina said:

Also, is Canada really that cowardly? I doubt it.

I just watched this episode, and as a Canadian, I would have to say "Yes". That is exactly what a Canadian government would do. I knew they would cave and not risk offending the fascists.

AngelaHunter · July 1, 2019

On 6/26/2019 at 1:18 AM, HeySandyStrange said:

I can't be the only one who saw how handsy high Commander so and so was getting with good ol' Fred, right? I'm curious to see how that will turn out.

Can we see ol' Freddy get held down and ass-raped, please? I do seriously question Commander Meloni's taste, though.

The idea that the rest of the world would stand by and allow half the population to be enslaved, brutalized, mutilated and raped on a grand scale is, of course, total science fiction. Gilead doesn't seem to have enough food (or electricity) but they are so militarily powerful that the world bows to their wishes?

When Aunt Lydia checked the wired mouth of the handmaid I couldn't decide if even she was mildly perturbed or was maybe thinking, "Great idea! I'm pumped!"

Aunt Lydia comforts June - when she's not jabbing her with the cattle prod, that is.

So, more perpetual winter, perpetual closeups, and scenes - people standing, sitting, walking, staring - dragged out forever and all overlaid with obnoxious melodramatic music. I thought my DVR got stuck during the headless Abe Lincoln scene.

I have no idea what is the deal with Nick and by then I was too bored to care.

I'm sure all else has been said in this thread. I get this show on Sun nights so it's hard to keep up.

Umbelina · July 1, 2019

4 minutes ago, Lily H said:

I just watched this episode, and as a Canadian, I would have to say "Yes". That is exactly what a Canadian government would do. I knew they would cave and not risk offending the fascists.

I don't think we KNOW that it caved.

I still think there is a good chance that Canada is colluding with the USA and EU *through Switzerland* to spy on the black hole of the inner workings and power structure, intents, etc. of Gilead.

At least that is the direction good writers would take, and their were hints about that.

I think they avoided Nick because he is their most deeply embedded, highly placed, spy.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Umbelina

Callaphera · July 1, 2019

8 minutes ago, Lily H said:

I just watched this episode, and as a Canadian, I would have to say "Yes". That is exactly what a Canadian government would do. I knew they would cave and not risk offending the fascists.

Is Canadian. Let out a giant snort laugh and nod to this. Business as usual in the land flowing with maple syrup and poutine.

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I will point out though, that almost every single character on this show has "plot armor" it's most certainly not just June.

Not disagreeing that most characters have a certain amount. But June's is the shiniest and prettiest and most protective of all.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Callaphera
use the right words, dumbass

Umbelina · July 1, 2019

3 minutes ago, Callaphera said:

Not discounting that most characters have a certain amount. But June's is the shiniest and prettiest and most protective of all.

She, at least, has fairly decent (not great) excuses though. She was pregnant, which is the most valuable thing in Gilead for most of last season, she's been playing Fred effectively, then Serena because of Nick's wife's death, then she was nursing, and now she's got some of Emily's plot armor because she's in Lawrence's house.

Face it. Most of the cast SHOULD be dead by now. Name one prominent cast member from season one that shouldn't be dead by now, by most logic, or without amazing luck or "plot armor."

Callaphera · July 1, 2019

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Face it. Most of the cast SHOULD be dead by now. Name one prominent cast member from season one that shouldn't be dead by now, by most logic, or without amazing luck or "plot armor."

Aunt Lydia.

ETA: I think you missed the part where I said I didn't disagree with you? But honestly, if we're going to go the "June is special because she can still make babies YAY!" route, they could have just locked her up in the sub-basement of the Handmaid Factory where they had the other crazy Handmaid locked up. They didn't need to let her run around to do all of this but Scientology needs the paycheque so.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Callaphera

Umbelina · July 1, 2019

There were two hints in the "inside the episode" crap.

June, which addresses a frequent complaint here about her trusting Serena, will become

Spoiler

more ruthless (or a word like that) she's over trusting anyone.

Commander Winslow

Spoiler

gets off on power, he was showing Fred who has control, and it was not Fred.

More about him here: https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/entertainment/a28182984/christopher-meloni-commander-winslow-handmaids-tale/

It's SAYS spoilers but honestly, nothing any logical person couldn't guess at.

2 minutes ago, Callaphera said:

Aunt Lydia.

You got me!

Ha.

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