S14.E20: Moriah

[TexasGal]

Quote

In the Season 14 finale, Sam, Dean and Castiel are thrown into an epic battle.  Meanwhile, Jack becomes disenchanted with all the lies, and an old friend from the past shows up.

Airdate 2019.04.25

[ZennyKenny]

As is tradition, I will be singing this to my dog at the start of the show:

"Carry on my wayward pup

They'll be treats when you are done

Lay your floppy ears to rest

Don't you whine no more"

[BabySpinach]

Dabb would sooner villainize GOD than his precious Wonderchild OC. Lmao.

Well, now I can say with certainty that this was the worst-plotted season this show has ever had. They actually had the audacity to bring up Billie again, then completely ignore the elephant she's attached to. The beginning with Michael building up his monster army had absolutely nothing to do with the end point we got. Its only throughline was Nougat Sue. Fucking insulting. 

Jack is dead, though I'm sure that won't be for long. And great, Billie has now redirected her attention from Dean to Wonderboy, as everything under Dabb's domain inevitably does. 

Small comforts: Dean wasn't villainized as much as he easily could have been. They were a united front against Chuck. Dean smashing Chuck's guitar was awesome and ballsy, and only something that Dean could/would do. And the cliffhanger does feel like a lead-in to a series finale. Though I wonder what Amara would say about Chuck's petty fuckery.

Other than that, I got nothing. Michael!Dean is officially confirmed as the most mishandled story in the show's history.

Edited April 26, 2019 by BabySpinach

[Pondlass1]

I guess there just ain’t enough zombies 

[Castiels Cat]

WTF.

Dean was awesome. Glad he was unable to pull the trigger. I thought he would not be able to but someone else would do it. Chuck the nefarious big bad con artist not Michael. 

They really just dropped Michael after all of that build up... the books. The bastards.

I actually felt sympathy for Michael after seeing that side of Chuck.

That ending was f'g terrible.

And Billie and the Empty are going to work together with Jack to save the world whilst Cas and the boys battle zombies and ghosts with bad special effects.

They should have ended it sooner. I just can't...

[Jediknight]

Holy shit!

Chuck was the main villain the entire time.  He's been behind everything.  I did not see that coming.

That ending, holy Zod.  Everything that the Winchesters have hunted and more, are back.  Chuck undid 14 seasons of work.  That whole sequence, maybe the best use of music (not counting Carry On) an episode has ever had.

And it looks like The Empty may be with the Winchesters.  We've got a Jack, Billie, and Empty teamup coming.  Wonder if they bring back some past characters like Bela, Benny, Ellen, Rufus, Charlie, Jo, and Ash to help out.  It's going to be an all hands on deck situation.

[OrigamiNightmare]

I was so excited Jack was dead, but then I remembered the empty.

[Castiels Cat]

3 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I guess there just ain’t enough zombies 

Is Chuck just throwing a temper tantrum and spitting souls out of heaven and hell at an excruciatingly slow rate so that the 3 Winchesters literally personally have to address each and every disturbance themselves? It seems so comical and Ghostbusters and not at all Apocalyptic and Endlike.

[patty1h]

I like some of the first half - the people fighting in the tech company made me chuckle.  I loved seeing Chuck, at first.  Everything in the graveyard was a crapfest - so disappointing.  So easy to see why the J's were ready to bail.

[BoxManLocke]

I'm honestly pretty satisfied. The episode managed to subvert my expectations with a twist that feels very Supernatural-like - The SPN of old, I mean. The good one.

I was annoyed when Chuck turned up because I was afraid they were going to use him to fix everything again, but voila, turns out he was the asshole all along. I like that.

It feels like after years and years of meandering, dozens of aborted storylines and a crapton of futile character "arcs", the show is finally going in a meaningful direction.

Seems fitting for the final season.

I missed half the season so I wasn't at all invested in either Jack, Mary, or whatever angst of the week Dean and Sam were going through.

Edited April 26, 2019 by BoxManLocke

[Castiels Cat]

I had several interruptions from tornado warnings but apparently I just missed Jensen's beautiful angry face. Not much plot to be had in this.

[Myrelle]

So it looks like Michael was right about Daddy Dearest.

Go figure.

2 minutes ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

I was so excited Jack was dead, but then I remembered the empty.

You and me both.

[tennisgurl]

So, Chuck is a total asshole who screws over his characters for whatever stupid random crap he wants in his story, even if it doesent make sense, tossing away long time characters in favor of his pets, and adding in random Chevoks Guns for his own amusement. Chuck is officially our Dabb stand in character, isnt he? 

Most of this was a massive league cluster fuck, especially at the end, but that being said, the part of me that is a nostalgic idiot freaking loved seeing some classic monsters of the week return, starting with the Woman in White that started the whole show. "That Constance chick WHAT A BITCH!!!"

Edited April 26, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Castiels Cat]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

So, Chuck is a total asshole who screws over his characters for whatever stupid random crap he wants in his story, even if it doesent make sense, tossing away long time characters in favor of his pets, and adding in random Chevoks Guns for his own amusement. Chuck is officially our Dabb stand in character, isnt he? 

Most of this was a massive league cluster fuck, especially at the end, but that being said, the part of me that is a nostalgic idiot freaking loved seeing some classic monsters of the week return, starting with the Woman in White that started the whole show. "That Constance chick WHAT A BITCH!!!"

Yes and Bloody Mary. But... I actually am finally glad about next year being the last. Yeesh. Suddenly it makes sense why all of the characters that have hung with Chuck are pathological.

[BabySpinach]

Looks like our "villain" Michael was right all along about wanting to catch up with the old man and tear him a new asshole. Unintentional or not, that's hilarious. 

[Lastcall]

What just happened?

God’s evil now. So I guess he is the big bad next year. Seems team free will gets help from Death, the empty and Nougat.

All of the monsters they’ve killed for the last 14 years are back too. Would say it’s so Sam can kill them all but I think he’s not Dabb’s favorite anymore which brings me to.....

Sam just did the stupidest thing on the show ever. He was there for the fight against the Darkness. If he was successful he would not have only killed God but every universe in creation. I thought it would be a continuity error and nothing would happen but nope he lived so it stands. Sam almost murdered creation.

I really don’t know why Jensen is excited about next year. Sure the set up looks great but when has Dabb ever followed through. I now think next year will be a disaster. Too much silliness in one episode to digest......this show will end bloody and not in the good way.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Lastcall

[Myrelle]

The Dean hate should subside after this one, but that's about the only good thing I can think of that came out of it.

They can't kill Chuck w/o destroying their world, so S15 looks to just be a Nougatbaby and Chuck showdown-because Chuck is afraid of the cinnamon roll, of course.

Whoopee.

[Castiels Cat]

3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So, Chuck is a total asshole who screws over his characters for whatever stupid random crap he wants in his story, even if it doesent make sense, tossing away long time characters in favor of his pets, and adding in random Chevoks Guns for his own amusement. Chuck is officially our Dabb stand in character, isnt he? 

Most of this was a massive league cluster fuck, especially at the end, but that being said, the part of me that is a nostalgic idiot freaking loved seeing some classic monsters of the week return, starting with the Woman in White that started the whole show. "That Constance chick WHAT A BITCH!!!"

And Dean has been trained since a young child to sacrifice his life. It's like everything was in place for Dean to pull that trigger but Dean being Dean changed the story. He does that. Chuck forgot that Dean tends to do that to his story.

[mary2013]

My only reaction when this ended is - Why?

[S Cook Productions]

I am shocked they went there! I like the epic build-up to the last season with all these old-school monsters coming back, and Chuck saying, “welcome to the end.” However, religiously, I’m a little Uncomfortable that they’re making God/Chuck the super bad guy. Will that cost them viewers? I’m surprised the network lets them get away with that if what it seems to be really is. I feel like I have to go to confession now for enjoying that ep, and looking forward to next season. At least TFW looks like they will be a united front again. I don’t know what else to say about this. Even if the last season is bad, it looks to be epic and not boring. I mean, he would be the most powerful big bad they’ve had but I still have a hard time imagining Chuck as the big bad.  

[TexasGal]

If everything they did is undone, can we get original Death back?  Please?!

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

However, religiously, I’m a little Uncomfortable that they’re making God/Chuck the super bad guy.

You and me both. I'm so disappointed that they went there.

[Lastcall]

A few more groans that hit me....

Easy Trump joke again but like last time the president is suppose to be Jefferson Rooney. If you want to make real world jokes stop having fake Presidents.

”Mom was my Hero”, you can’t let it go Dabb....you just can’t let it go.

Chucks BMOL comment. Gasp...did Dabb finally admit he was wrong about something?

So unless I catch wind of something truly remarkable next year I’m off live and may not watch at all if this is any indication of where we are going.

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

I mean, he would be the most powerful big bad they’ve had but I still have a hard time imagining Chuck as the big bad.  

I'm going to imagine that Amara did something to him or had some kind of bad influence on him.

[Castiels Cat]

4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

The Dean hate should subside after this one, but that's about the only good thing I can think of that came out of it.

They can't kill Chuck w/o destroying their world, so S15 looks to just be a Nougatbaby and Chuck showdown-because Chuck is afraid of the cinnamon roll, of course.

Whoopee.

They can create a new power structure with Jack in charge or they can use Dean's relationship with Amara and have her in charge... iDk.

I think they are either going to do mostly motw with a smattering of politics and let him cool off with a pretty speech or something or replace him. 

I think it will be silliness like bad creature featire. A true end verse is not sustainable. IDK

Maybe Chuck's plan is just go throw mini temper tantrums so nothing stays around very long.

Who knows. Why did all of Dean's books suddenly change again when nothing extraordinary like world hopping happened?

They can just make up whatever they want. Chuck can just hand wave whatever they want.

Sam was an idiot.

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm going to imagine that Amara did something to him or had some kind of bad influence on him.

Maybe Chuck is the problem. Dean had no issues with Amara.

[Castiels Cat]

6 minutes ago, TexasGal said:

If everything they did is undone, can we get original Death back?  Please?!

Maybe that's why she's in the Empty. Chuck didn't like her after all.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm going to imagine that Amara did something to him or had some kind of bad influence on him.

Why does Amara get the blame for this LOL? I've said Chuck is an asshole along, so I guess this fits.  Amara seemed to get what she wanted which was Chuck back. She realized she didn't want to destroy the world for the sake of it. She just wanted to get even with Chuck.  And this comes from someone who largely hated Amara. But she shouldn't get the rap for Chuck's choices here.

[Pondlass1]

This was written before the Js advised they were outta there?

[Wynne88]

I (unexpectedly) kind of liked it.  Probably because based on the previews, I had expected it to be one of those times where first Sam and Dean argue about what needs to be done, then Dean does the hard/ugly thing while Sam shrieks 'no, no!'.   Admittedly Sam did yell 'No!', but it was at least partly based on what he had gained through his talk with Chuck, not simply because he disagreed.  They were on the same page when they confronted Chuck which was nice.  I liked the way the end was filmed except for the last few seconds where they were overwhelmed with zombies - it would have been more suspenseful if they had cut while they were still closing in, and I liked the music that went along with the end scene.  I also liked that Cas seemed to be growing more of a backbone (pretty much out of nowhere, admittedly).

Does it all make sense?  Probably not.  I'm just going to try not to think about it.  The total lack of discussion about Michael and Lucifer also seemed rather odd.  One problem they've had over the years is going up against increasingly big bads, against whom realistically they should have had no chance.  I think they just raised the ante well beyond what they should be able to cover, but whatever.  Carry on, indeed.

[BoxManLocke]

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

This was written before the Js advised they were outta there?

Doesn't feel like it. This twist is just perfectly fitting for a final season.

Also yeah, Chuck may have been entertaining, and sometimes popped up to lend a hand to get the boys out of the worst situations... but he helped just enough so that things on earth would remain shitty.

He was always an asshole, that was already clear to me in season 11. So that feels right.

[Castiels Cat]

10 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

I am shocked they went there! I like the epic build-up to the last season with all these old-school monsters coming back, and Chuck saying, “welcome to the end.” However, religiously, I’m a little Uncomfortable that they’re making God/Chuck the super bad guy. Will that cost them viewers? I’m surprised the network lets them get away with that if what it seems to be really is. I feel like I have to go to confession now for enjoying that ep, and looking forward to next season. At least TFW looks like they will be a united front again. I don’t know what else to say about this. Even if the last season is bad, it looks to be epic and not boring. I mean, he would be the most powerful big bad they’ve had but I still have a hard time imagining Chuck as the big bad.  

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”― Edmund Burke

Chuck was always "bad" in the sense that he did nothing. That was the problem for me with " My Name Is Shirley" when he was absolutely outed as God. And the nebbish act never really worked for me. He always came across as highly manipulative. Metatron learned his schtick from somebody...

That heart to heart he had with Dean in season 11 always bothered me because he essentially told the one guy who has had responsibility for everything placed on his shoulders since he was 4 that yes he was responsible for everything!!! And then Dean began to lose it slowly in season 12 and more so in season 13. I thought losing Mary might break him. Chuck thought it would. It didn't.

Sam broke bad instead lol.

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why does Amara get the blame for this LOL? I've said Chuck is an asshole along, so I guess this fits. 

Heh, true. I guess I just wanted "Don't Call Me Shurley" to have stuck with Chuck.

[Myrelle]

17 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

”Mom was my Hero”, you can’t let it go Dabb....you just can’t let it go.

Yeah, eye-roll worthy moment there, for sure.

[Myrelle]

58 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Dabb would sooner villainize GOD than his precious Wonderchild OC. Lmao.

Well, now I can say with certainty that this was the worst-plotted season this show has ever had. They actually had the audacity to bring up Billie again, then completely ignore the elephant she's attached to. The beginning with Michael building up his monster army had absolutely nothing to do with the end point we got. Its only throughline was Nougat Sue. Fucking insulting. 

Jack is dead, though I'm sure that won't be for long. And great, Billie has now redirected her attention from Dean to Wonderboy, as everything under Dabb's domain inevitably does. 

Small comforts: Dean wasn't villainized as much as he easily could have been. They were a united front against Chuck. Dean smashing Chuck's guitar was awesome and ballsy, and only something that Dean could/would do. And the cliffhanger does feel like a lead-in to a series finale. Though I wonder what Amara would say about Chuck's petty fuckery.

Other than that, I got nothing. Michael!Dean is officially confirmed as the most mishandled story in the show's history.

This pretty much says it all for me, too.

[Myrelle]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why does Amara get the blame for this LOL? I've said Chuck is an asshole along, so I guess this fits.  Amara seemed to get what she wanted which was Chuck back. She realized she didn't want to destroy the world for the sake of it. She just wanted to get even with Chuck.  And this comes from someone who largely hated Amara. But she shouldn't get the rap for Chuck's choices here.

Definitely not.

This is all on Chuck(Dabb). 😜

[tennisgurl]

So, Michael wasent wrong about his dad being a piece of work I guess. Hey, remember when this season started, and we thought that Michael was going to be a big deal? Crazy times, huh? 

This episode...well at least it did certainly feel like a season finale, and it did certainly feel like it was setting up some possibly interesting stuff for next season. The idea of the monsters of the week past, and maybe some other dead characters and big bads, all coming back for the final season actually sounds like a cool idea for the last season, or at least less dull than the last few seasons. Plus, I just want some good old fashioned monsters and ghosts and stuff, lets take a little break from Heaven and Gods dysfunctional family. I am always going to be a bit salty that the show was totally consumed by them for the entire back half of the show, and we never mixed it up with any big bads. Even the Men of Letters were tied into the Heaven and Hell stuff. Why not have a season with the fairies from the magical alternate dimension or something?

"Mom was my hero." Oh God, can we stop with this retroactive deification of St. Mary, show? Why is this show so obsessed with its worst characters?

You know, I mostly like Alex as an actor and think he does a decent job with Jack, even when the writing isnt so hot, but...what has he been doing lately? It must be the direction, because he comes off less as soulless and confused by morality and more like a robot who does not understand the ways of the human. He comes across as more stupid than childish or amoral. 

So God is the final big bad? Thats a bold flex, show, lets see where you go with that one. Its just weird to say, honestly, even though Chuck has always been sketchy since we found out he was God, it was more of a vague morally ambiguous kind of sketchy. Now he has gone full on super-villain, especially retroactively. On the one hand, how the hell do you kill GOD, the creator of everything, or get rid of him? What would even happen at that point? I feel like just about anything would feel rushed or too convenient for the last minute to stop him. Or Jack will have to save the day, as the weird robot pet character that he is. On the other hand, God as Big Bad is pretty much the only person big enough now for them to fight for their last season, they've went against pretty much everyone else in creation, so unless they decided to play tick tac toe with Death, Chuck was the only one left who it would feel climactic enough to take on. They already spent so much time making up new long lost gods every other day, I guess this at least makes sense. And there is some symmetry in Team Free Will ending up fighting...the writing staff who keeps dicking them over. 

*Sigh* I miss The Prophet Chuck. 

I do love how every time these ultra powerful beings think that Dean is going to zig, he gleefully zags. Yeah, cant hold him down, jerks! Sam shooting Chuck might be one of the most short sighted choices in the history of short sighted choices. Yeah, just shoot GOD, that wont have any negative repercussions!

[Kanner]

50 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

And Dean has been trained since a young child to sacrifice his life. It's like everything was in place for Dean to pull that trigger but Dean being Dean changed the story. He does that. Chuck forgot that Dean tends to do that to his story.

Yep. Dean pulled a classic Dean Winchester. 

[ahrtee]

Well, they talked about all the Apocalypses (Apocalypti?) they've already stopped, so now they have: (drum roll):
The ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE!

[BabySpinach]

Anyone realize how drastically this retcons season 11? Chuck was waxing poetic about how important and meaningful his creations were, and he was even willing to sacrifice himself for them at one point. Amara eventually came around to his side once she experienced the best of it (ahem, DEAN) for herself. Chuck betrayed his own sister and locked her away for eternity just so he could birth the universe, but now he's just ending it all because a few toys (out of BILLIONS) finally put their foot down. 

Forget Michael. If Dabb gave a single fuck about Amara, she'd be tearing her brother a whole cosmos of assholes for pulling this shit. 

[Pondlass1]

It seemed like they knew season 15 was the last when they wrote this. Everything’s reset isn’t it?  

[Lastcall]

Another random thought....anyone want to place bets that the empty will release his own army led by Mark Pellegrino?

[catrox14]

This is just lazy writing IMO.  Undoing everything the boys did saving people, hunting things? What's the point? Why make them do it all over again?  This is stupid

[ZennyKenny]

Ok, before I read any other responses, let me just say: I LOVED that episode!! Misha was right, it was EPIC!

First, I was pleasantly surprised at how much fun it was at the beginning with nobody being able to lie. 

Second, everyone's responses to the conclusion that they had to kill Jack made sense to their character. Cas wanting to protect him, Sam wanting to look for a way to save him, Dean making the hard choice that no one else wants to make about killing him.

But what I loved most was that finally the show revealed Chuck's true colors to the Winchesters, and the audience. I've had Chuck written in the "villain" column ever since the whole "nobody likes a helicopter parent" excuses he gave Metatron for abandoning his creation. And for locking his sister away, and for like a million other things that were summed up nicely in this episode. Love how both Sam and Dean had their own way of confronting Chuck about it all, too.

I sincerely hope that the Winchesters kill Chuck in the final season. In fact, bonus is they team up with Amara to do it.

[Castiels Cat]

22 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

This pretty much says it all for me, too.

I have to agree. 

Why is Death in the Empty. That made no sense. Does Death reap Angel's? Maybe.

Sigh.

F@#k.

[Macbeth]

56 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So, Chuck is a total asshole who screws over his characters for whatever stupid random crap he wants in his story, even if it doesent make sense, tossing away long time characters in favor of his pets, and adding in random Chevoks Guns for his own amusement. Chuck is officially our Dabb stand in character, isnt he? 

And it's not surprising that Dabb's God is a complete douche.  Petty. Vindictive. And ready to tear up the script and end things if he isn't  given the proper respect. 

[ahrtee]

They can't kill Chuck without destroying the whole universe, right?  

Well, there's always the cage (or whatever) that Amara was locked in for millennia.  (And she might be happy for a little payback.) 

And if there's a lock, there has to be...um...

Maybe we can give Jack the MoC (or whatever lock they need this time) so he can be the holy gatekeeper.  

[Bergamot]

40 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

They can't kill Chuck w/o destroying their world, so S15 looks to just be a Nougatbaby and Chuck showdown-because Chuck is afraid of the cinnamon roll, of course.

Yes. And the prospect pretty much leaves me cold. Kind of like this finale.

I thought for a few episodes that Jack might actually develop into an interesting character. But it turns out that no matter what cosmic events Jack undergoes, whether he loses or gains grace, or a soul, or special new powers -- he is still completely unchanged. Still the same two-dimensional woobie that he has been from the day he was born.

And the show managed to make Chuck two-dimensional and boring as well. He is nothing more than your standard evil mastermind now, just with extra-special all-powerful god sauce. The battle between him and Jack will be the clash of the two-dimensional cosmic beings. Whatever.

I'm not sure it's a good idea for the show to bring back monsters from earlier seasons for the Winchesters to face. The comparison between then and now is going to be pretty stark. To see a re-match between them and Bloody Mary, for example, is only going to make it glaringly obvious how much the show has lost since then. I mean, compared to back when it was about real human beings with deep and complex emotions that you could care about.

5 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I sincerely hope that the Winchesters kill Chuck in the final season.

I don't think that's going to happen. Unless by "Winchesters" you mean the Faux Winchester, Jack.

12 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I do love how every time these ultra powerful beings think that Dean is going to zig, he gleefully zags. 

Yeah, I have to admit that I did like that part of it! 

[Lastcall]

2 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I sincerely hope that the Winchesters kill Chuck in the final season. In fact, bonus is they team up with Amara to do it.

I would love it if Amara came back, particularly since all they need to do is drive to Reno, but she would only appear so Chuck could kill her. Then he could twirl his mustache and say Season 11 was a trick and he was fake dying. Then Jack can kill him in the series finale without any repercussions. 

Thats all too over complicated though. I was dead wrong about Angel Zombies...just plain zombies.  I expect Chuck to appear in the first two minutes of 15x1 and say “See! This is what happens if you don’t listen too me”. Then reset everything and give them 19 episodes to think it over.

[AwesomO4000]

5 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Why is Death in the Empty. That made no sense. Does Death reap Angel's? Maybe.

I thought Death was there for Jack's human side. My impression was that Jack was going to have to decide which he was or wanted remain as in his afterlife: human or angel. The wrinkle might be that with the people he killed, if he chooses human, he may not know where he will go, especially if his soul really is gone. The empty is safer, but he'll just be asleep.

I could be wrong, but that was the impression that I got: that there was going to have to be a decision by someone as to who was going to take Jack in the afterlife.

[Jediknight]

9 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I have to agree. 

Why is Death in the Empty. That made no sense. Does Death reap Angel's? Maybe.

Sigh.

F@#k.

Death did say that he would reap God.

Original Death, and Billie are both concerned with maintaining the natural order of things, they want balance in the universe.  Chuck just took a chainsaw to all of that.  I'm guessing that Billie, the Empty, and Jack are going to team up.