S02.E14: Such Sweet Sorrow, Part II

[LittleIggy]

As someone else mentioned, Spock and St. Michael having that teary heartfelt conversation while all kinds of 💩 was blowing up around them was stupid. I was like, “Shut the f*ck up and and get the hell out of there!” That kind of thing is one of my movie/tv pet peeves.

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

As someone else mentioned, Spock and St. Michael having that teary heartfelt conversation while all kinds of 💩 was blowing up around them was stupid. I was like, “Shut the f*ck up and and get the hell out of there!” That kind of thing is one of my movie/tv pet peeves.

And yet, even as I was saying the same thing, I found it moving. Particularly the Vulcan "I love you."

[LJones41]

St. Michael?  Don't you mean St. Christopher Pike?  Mr. Starfleet Ideal?  I guess people don't mind the sunshine pouring out of his ass, but when someone like Michael proves to be competent, they have a problem.

I disliked the Season Two finale.  But I certainly DID NOT dislike the series in general . . . especially Season One, which I loved.

[LittleIggy]

1 hour ago, LJones41 said:

St. Michael?  Don't you mean St. Christopher Pike?  Mr. Starfleet Ideal?  I guess people don't mind the sunshine pouring out of his ass, but when someone like Michael proves to be competent, they have a problem.

I disliked the Season Two finale.  But I certainly DID NOT dislike the series in general . . . especially Season One, which I loved.

Yeah, St. Michael. Proves to be competent? She is the ultimate Mary Sue. 🙄

[Miles]

4 hours ago, LJones41 said:

St. Michael?  Don't you mean St. Christopher Pike?  Mr. Starfleet Ideal?  I guess people don't mind the sunshine pouring out of his ass, but when someone like Michael proves to be competent, they have a problem.

I mean considering Micheal interrupts, contradicts and all around disrespects Pike all of the time and faces no consequences, I don't think he's the Mary Sue here.

[LittleIggy]

9 hours ago, Miles said:

I mean considering Micheal interrupts, contradicts and all around disrespects Pike all of the time and faces no consequences, I don't think he's the Mary Sue here.

Yeah, I don’t see Pike being depicted as perfect. 

[Toaster Strudel]

The reason I can no longer stand the Michael character and will not watch next season isn't because the she is bad per se, or even that the story lines are written from a single person's perspective.

The plot is a wildly over-the-top narcissistic wankfest where not only is the whole multi-episode story arc based on Michael's emotionally-overwrought point of view, but every other character is obsessed with her, exists as it relates to her, and the fate of the entire universe rests in Michael's feelings and actions. She's the only woman Ash could ever love! She even had to be Spock's sister... how contrived is that? For two whole funking seasons. Every episode the same thing. A new planet? A new ship? A new war? A new civilization? Don't worry! It's 100% about Michael! All of time, and even parallel universes depend on her next set of tears. Give me a break.

If Micheal was a light-hearted, funny, debonair person it probably would work better for me, but she might still suck the oxygen out of all the other players.  As she is written, she's not witty or even remotely entertaining. She's either doing something she's not supposed to do, wearing bossy-pants, or weeping imploringly.

Maybe it's because in real life I'm a total team player and what I love about these starship shows is to see a team of quirky and fallible humans and aliens do awesome things through cooperation. In Discovery, this seems to happen, but only far in the background and is not the point of the plot.

All those officers on the bridge, enhanced humans, aliens... who are they? I have no idea other than they're probably far more interesting than Michael's next psychobabble drama with Emo-Spock.

Ash also got on my nerves, the writers didn't know what do to with him. His whole plot was incoherent nonsense... and the actor talks like he's got a hot potato in his mouth.

I'll miss L'Rell - she was my favorite. Calm, wise, rational and oddly beautiful.

Giorgiou was wasted... fantastic actress, great character, humor too, but I was never sure why she was hanging around. Bidding her time? She was way to powerful to be a peripheral character.

Give me a show with L'Rell and Giorgiou as co-captains, LOL.

Someone else wrote in another thread that The Orville is the true descendant of Star Trek. I wholeheartedly agree.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Toaster Strudel

[LJones41]

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Yeah, I don’t see Pike being depicted as perfect. 

And yet, that is how many perceive him.  Well, he's gone.  And I'm not going to miss him.  I'm not into bland, ideal Starfleet types.

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Someone else wrote in another thread that The Orville is the true descendant of Star Trek. I wholeheartedly agree.

The Orville is a joke to me.  I like it, but I have no respect for it.  The series is nothing more than a slavish remake of another Trek show to me and it reeks with a lack of originality.

To me, a good Trek show is to take the franchise where it has NOT gone before.  As much as I like "Next Generation", I feel it had failed in this particular endeavor, aside from the introduction of the Borg.  "Deep Space Nine", "Voyager", "Discovery" and even "Enterprise" were willing to do something new.  To a certain point.  However, none of these shows, in my personal opinion, can hold a candle to "Babylon 5".

Edited May 14, 2019 by LJones41

[Chaos Theory]

I am not going to get into the weird hatred for Michael except to say that every time a lead female seems to be well liked by the other characters AND is competent at her job a Mary Sue label gets put on her.  If Michel was an idiot or the rest of the crew hated her I think a lot of people would be less harsh on her.

That being said I did like this season.   Both Pike and Spock were reasonable versions of themselves.  I liked how the season delved into Pikes ultimate fate.    

Giorgiou was underused but then I always think she is. 

Edited May 27, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[LJones41]

I have been a fan of Anson Mount since he starred in "HELL ON WHEELS".  But I wish to God that he had never been cast as Christopher Pike in "STAR TREK DISCOVERY".  I really do.

I believe Christopher Pike was the worst thing about Season Two of "STAR TREK DISCOVERY".  His presence on the show  seemed irrelevant to me.  Useless.  Why was there throughout the entire season?  Why was he even needed?  To provide an ideal leading male character for the more traditional fans to swoon over? 

Saru could have easily remained in command of Discovery, after the crew was given the Red Angel mission.  Pike was not needed.  Nor was that idiotic subplot regarding Pike's future as a paraplegic.  Everyone knew about his future.  There was no need to wrap it up in some "heroic choice" on Pike's part.  There was no need. 

Someone had once mentioned that Pike had always admitted to his mistakes.  There was one big mistake he never bothered to admit . . . and that was accusing Ash Tyler of contacting Section 31 behind his back.  When a regular Discovery officer proved to be the culprit, Pike never admitted his mistake or offered an apology.  Instead, his mistake was dismissed by Ash.  Speaking of Ash, the latter's conflict with Pike was badly handled.  What was the point in including it in the Season Two narrative in the first place?  Kurtzman could have spent more time exploring the situation between Ash and Hugh Culber. 

There were aspects of Season Two that I liked - Starfleet's conflict with Control, Hugh Culber's return and Michael Burnham's reunion with her mother, Gabrielle Burnham.  However, there were aspects of Season Two that I disliked.  I did not like the finale, (2.14) "Such Sweet Sorrow, Part II" – like obvious plot holes and Discovery’s unnecessary trip to the future.  Also, I saw no reason for Spock to remain aboard Discovery for the entire second half of the season.  And most importantly, I saw no need for Christopher Pike to serve as the temporary commander of the U.S.S. Discovery.  I found this decision by the show runners to be completely unnecessary. 

Edited June 30, 2019 by LJones41

[shrewd.buddha]

Just watched the finale and can now leave this show and its mind-numbing attacks on logic behind me. Most of the illogical has already been noted. These are the ones that bugged me (but I fear the rant could be endless): 

1.  Giorgiou continually referring to the Control AI as 'Leland'. The excessive hand-to-hand combat with an AI entity that could not be harmed was bad enough. But Giorgiou kept making it seem as it she was working out some personal vendetta against someone who no longer existed: Leland was a victim of the AI - he's not there anymore.
2. The Control AI being completely contained in Leland's body and the entire AI fleet shutting down when that body was destroyed. Why did the AI want to engage in mixed martial arts instead of infecting Discovery's computer systems to find the precious Sphere data?
3. Serak, Amanda and Spock never mentioning Michael again would just make them seem weird. Michael grew up on Vulcan, graduated, joined Starfleet, served on two starships and was a major part of the Klingon war: this would have left all types of evidence behind and many different groups of people would remember her and her parents.

And lastly, I don't get what the writers were attempting with the Red Signals:
  Starfleet witnessed seven signals and created a map of them. The Klingons saw one or more signals. Spock also created a map that was a near match to Startfleet's map. Maps show you where things are - they are not prophesies or predictions. After the appearance of the seven signals, another signal appears - but they never say that it matches a location on the map. They say they don't know where the signals will appear. So why does everyone think these are the same signals and there will be seven of them?!?  Only Spock's dreams of seven signals could be interpreted as a prediction - actual sightings are not predictions. 
  If you saw seven lights in the sky, you could point to where they were. If another light appeared in another location, wouldn't you  say "Hey, there's another light similar to the seven I saw previously."?
  And did the writers realize that the signal at Terralysium would have had to occurred thousands of years before the incident ... because the light from the signal would have taken that long to reach our galaxy ... because light can only travel at the speed of light? 

Edited September 22, 2019 by shrewd.buddha

[LJones41]

I'm now re-watching "Star Trek Next Generations".  Mind you, I still like the show very much; but . . . I'm not as impressed by it like I used to be.  I didn't realize there was a good deal of shoddy and sometimes, unoriginal writing in this series.

I'm also re-watching "Star Trek Deep Space Nine".  I think I enjoyed it more than "Next Generation".  But the further the series delves into the Dominion War, the more I find myself questioning the quality of its writing.  It's like Season Two of "Discovery" to me.  I will continue watching "Discovery".  As much as I found the second season, along with the presence of Christopher Pike and Spock rather disappointing . . . I'll still watch it.

[txhorns79]

So just to make sure I heard correctly, at the end of the episode when they are interviewing the Enterprise officers, Number One actually identifies herself as Number One when they ask for her name?  That was quite amusing.  I also appreciated that whatever hairspray she was using was strong enough to stay mostly intact through multiple explosions.   

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Giorgiou was wasted... fantastic actress, great character, humor too, but I was never sure why she was hanging around. Bidding her time? She was way to powerful to be a peripheral character.

Yeah, to me it would be like casting Meryl Streep to play the woman on the bridge with the eye implant.  It's like you have this great actress cast in this part, and you barely do anything with her.   

[statsgirl]

I can see Michelle Yeoh taking the role, even if it is a peripheral one, just to get the chance to do those fights scenes.  And for the sheer campiness of the character.

[TheGourmez]

On 4/19/2019 at 8:46 PM, Ottis said:

If it is this Pike, and Mount, I would love a Pike series. About 15 minutes more stuff would happen per ep because there wouldn't be all the weepy goodbyes we get with Burnham. 

I just watched the whole series thus far, and that's my biggest complaint - SO MANY GOODBYES and speeches!! And then the private goodbyes after the group goodbyes? So much overkill. I dug the Ash/Michael relationship last season, but this season, the poignancy of the goodbyes was lost because there were so many.

On 5/27/2019 at 1:16 PM, Chaos Theory said:

 If Michel was an idiot or the rest of the crew hated her I think a lot of people would be less harsh on her.

I was actually surprised that no one on Discovery is nursing a grudge against Michael still for her past mutiny. Does the whole crew know all the details of all these highly classified missions? I think it would do a lot if she still had to deal with others' resentment.

Otherwise, I loved the show. I'm just thrilled to be back in a world in which I have new Star Trek - multiple new Star Treks! These shows feel more like the Star Trek universe to me than the rebooted movies, of which I only watched one. Loved Pike, loved Saru, loved Tilly. I'm not sold on Stamets and Culber's return wasn't as polished as it might be, though if Culber continues struggling next year with his return, then maybe I'll be okay with that.

I'd love Michael to rely more on her Vulcan upbringing again - she was far too comfortable with all her human emotions this year. Or maybe I'm just tired of her tears. I want more of her just plain being competent. I would really like to know how the Klingons went from shades of gray and blue to mostly brown by TNG, but Worf may not let me ever learn the secrets. I laughed out loud when they grew hair this season, though - the bald heads were so bad.

[Stardancer Supreme]

I was able to turn my brain off and enjoy this series on the slickest of surfaces. Trekkie Forever!

The one thing I couldn't get past in the season finale was that these people waited until the very last minute to put Michael's red angel suit together!  You had 2 hours. You should not have been running down the hall putting pieces together while the ship was being hit.  And poor Stamets should have bled out by the time Tilly and Co. limped him to sickbay.  Of course Hugh didn't go to the Enterprise... 

My only issue with this show was the writing was so bad. You should not be able to pick apart key parts of the plot so easily.  The plot holes were big enough for a starship to go through.

This should have been the Section 31 show.  No more prequels! 

 

[John Potts]

You know, maybe if you didn't spend all that time you had before Control turned up, you might not be in a mad dash to get everything done at the last minute? And maybe you'd have more time if you tried running rather than just sitting around until Control arrived, you'd be ready before you went into battle. But there's no use crying over expended Dilithium, I guess...

Of course, even when the Gamma Rays hit the crystallisation chamber, people still stop to emote at each other as the world explodes around them. It was just about acceptable when the party got hit in the corridor (because there they were all in shock) but I loved that it was Reno who came out of it quickest with the, "Hey, people! The battle?" And I guess she's more of a Geordi than a Scottie, when she failed to break the laws of physics to power up the thingamyjig (of course, you could try running to give yourself more time...).

But when it came to the ending, I do like a good "closed time loop" solution, so that was a plus (even if they still took time out to have another heart to heart between Michael and Spock). And on a ship full of people, are the best people to defuse a bomb the Captain and an Admiral? It's not as if Admiral Cornwell has a background in Engineering, she's a former Councillor! How about ordering a couple of Engineering grunts to do it? We know that that is (or at least, will be) part of the Bridge Officer's test? Or have the Admiral be trapped there by battle damage so she has to be the one defusing it?

Does No 1 even have a name? Even at the Board of Enquiry(?) she gives her name as "Number One"! I guess it's possible she's an alien and her name is Nhombaire Wan, but she looks pretty human.

On 4/19/2019 at 1:19 PM, jcin617 said:

why exactly did Control need that sphere data?  Because it seemed pretty darned sentient without it.  How much more sentient can one be?

About 57%* apparently!

On 9/22/2019 at 2:32 PM, shrewd.buddha said:

The Control AI being completely contained in Leland's body and the entire AI fleet shutting down when that body was destroyed. Why did the AI want to engage in mixed martial arts instead of infecting Discovery's computer systems to find the precious Sphere data?

It's the same "Hollywood computing" that means that shooting the screen stops a computer from working!

* OK, I didn't actually memorise the actual figure

[Idiotboy]

Way too long, too many agendas, etc. It was more like an elaborate setup for Strange New Worlds than a season finale of Disco, of which Alex Kurtzman seems to have washed his hands. Especially when they came out with the big Exposition Broom at the end to sweep seasons one and two under the canonical rug. Plus, all those endless heart-to-heart talks between Special Snowflake Spock and St. Michael Burnham. There's a wormhole to open! Get on with it!

"... but then I realized that you're my home." I confess I shed a tear when Culber said that, one of the few moments of earned emotion this season. Other heteronormative Trek fans may be irked that Stamets/Culber is the OTP of Disco but it's fine by me. Also, goodbye and we'll miss you, Jayne Brook. Admiral Cornwell brought a great deal of gravitas to the show. Who knows? Now that Disco is 950 years into the future we can get to the craziness and conflict of S1.

To close on a wonky note: Those space battles were incoherent by Battlestar Galatica (reboot) standards. Work on it, TPTB. And, yes, LJones41, nothing but nothing holds a candle to Babylon 5.

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If I return to season 3 then only to check on Giorgiou.

Amen.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Idiotboy

[evilmindatwork]

On 8/23/2020 at 12:23 PM, Idiotboy said:

 

"... but then I realized that you're my home." I confess I shed a tear when Culber said that, one of the few moments of earned emotion this season. Other heteronormative Trek fans may be irked that Stamets/Culber is the OTP of Disco but it's fine by me. Also, goodbye and we'll miss you, Jayne Brook. Admiral Cornwell brought a great deal of gravitas to the show. Who knows? Now that Disco is 950 years into the future we can get to the craziness and conflict of S1.

 

 

I love them, I do. But I was hoping Michael and Ash would be one of the OTPs because Shazad Latif is gorgeous and I just want to see his face. 

[KimberStormer]

Oh my God this was all so bad. Maybe even worse than my sister said. But if they commit to the future setting for the rest of the show (this should have, OBVIOUSLY, been the ending of last season) then I forgive all the nonsense it took to get there. Off to the future with you, Discovery, Saru, Michael Burnham, where you can be you, unconstrained by the horribly constricting choke hold of prequelism. With your camera angles as wild as you like and all the severed baby heads you can eat.

The worst part of this is how much it was an episode of Strange New Worlds, not Discovery; what will certainly be a garbage show for the sort of imagination-free fan idiots who demand the same story every night like 4 year olds watching Monsters Inc twice a day. Remember when people were excited for a non cis white straight man captain?  Until the sainted daddy Pike came along? Ugh. I won't be watching that show, I can't even imagine wanting more Spock than I already have had forced down my throat, and I wish it hadn't clearly been the intention of this season to create it. 

Oh well oh well. Past is past, but The Future awaits and will hopefully be a good time. I am weirdly hopeful about it.

[paramitch]

Welp, I gave this a shot. I watched Season 1 years back, kind of hated it, although I loved Isaacs and Yeoh simply for their charisma and the sense that SOMEONE was having fun on this constantly dour, humorless show (boy did I miss Lorca), then just came back and tried again with S2 this past week.

And, oh man, I can't do it. I really, really tried to hang in there. I made it all the way here.

But I'm out.

I just had so many issues with this from a writing standpoint. The awful science, and the lazy magic-as-science handwaving! The fact that we barely know the crew (and if we do get to know them, it's usually a sign they're redshirted, cough, AIRIAM, cough) even after two seasons! The needlessly dark sets and simplistic characterizations! The wholly avoidable final confrontation with 31! The seven signals and the whole light-speed issue! The stupid DOOR fridging poor Admiral Cornwell (I mean, OH MY GOD the stupidity of that plotline)! The silly hand-to-hand fight between Control-Leland and Giorgiou!

None of this makes any logical sense if you think about it. It's just embarrassing to me.

Sigh. I don't have a single problem with the actors -- they're all doing their visible best. But the writing is letting them down, and this season just continued more of the same -- Michael as the unblinking focus of the show (and universe) who feeds each episode a required ration of tears (poor Sonequa cries beautifully), Tilly as a blatantly babbling fan-service cinnamon roll (her being besties with Po had me eye-rolling). The very weird handling of Stamets and Culber -- I love Anthony Rapp but I just find them chemistryless and joyless together, and Culber's rage issues this season didn't help.

The one constant that I liked about this season was Pike (and everyone in his orbit), and honestly I find that really sad to some degree, because yeah, he's yet another CIS white guy. But Mount brings this effortless charisma and fun to him that is so visibly lacking on this show that when he departed for the Enterprise here, I actually felt a wrench of sadness. Mount's also a terrific scene partner, and from a performance degree, he's confident enough to share the scene (and focus) so that everyone shines. So many of the other performers just feel a little badly directed -- not exactly over-acty, but like they are all constantly gritting their teeth, squirting tears, EMOTING. Even Tilly's cheerful babbling just feels forced and manufactured to me, like YOU WILL LOVE ME.

And then Mount, Yeoh, Notaro, Romijn, etc., just walk in and their breeziness and realness cuts right through that and is so much more interesting and watchable. Too bad it's always off to the side of this show's central charisma vacuum of grimness.

For me, Pike and Number One and his crew are already more interesting, sparky, and fun than any of the Discovery crew. And the Enterprise bridge looked so bright and beautiful and candy-colored! Just from a visual sense, I instantly wanted to Go To There. And then you add in sweet, humble, doomed Pike and snarky awesome Number One, a Spock at last freed from Burnham's ridiculous "secret sister who yelled at him once, oh, the trauma!" backstory, and I'm all in.

It doesn't help that the culmination of this entire season ended here with -- to a laughable degree -- the continued deification of Michael Burnham, to the point that she is now literally flitting around the universe wearing an angel costume. I mean, the subtext has at last become text!

I was gonna try and power through S3, but a good friend promised me it just gets worse from here, so yeah, I'm literally jumping ship. I'll be over at "Strange New Worlds."

Live long and prosper, y'all!
 

[MissLucas]

12 hours ago, paramitch said:

I was gonna try and power through S3, but a good friend promised me it just gets worse from here, so yeah, I'm literally jumping ship. I'll be over at "Strange New Worlds."

Live long and prosper, y'all!
 

Seasons 3 and 4 work if you enjoy snark-watching - the potential for doing so is endless. Otherwise you're definitely better off with Pike & Co!  

[Mrs. Stanwyck]

Just watched this season and one of the things I was confused about was Ash going to get the Klingons - didn't we a couple episodes back hear about how he couldn't be seen by the Klingons since he was supposed to be dead?  Did L'Rell just tell everyone it was his twin brother who also spoke Klingon?

The other thing I was screaming at the tv after Control was "killed" on Discovery - "eject that cage or transport it into space!"  Don't bring the scary AI into the future that you are going to in order to escape said AI.

I also thought about the crewmembers that said "thanks but I'm heading off to the Enterprise"  Do you think they got any shade about not being as committed as the rest of the crew? 😀