S08.E01: Winterfell

[benteen]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Was there a scene of Jorah meeting his niece?

Lyanna Mormont is Jorah's cousin.  That would have been cool to see and maybe we still will.  I can't imagine any of the She-Bears have a high opinion of Jorah with the way he left Bear Island.

Edited April 18, 2019 by benteen

[domina89]

16 hours ago, MissLucas said:

It makes no sense at this point to keep the dragons near - it's although not what has happened since the joy-ride to the North took them far away from Winterfell. Neither Jon nor Daenerys seemed to have any qualms at leaving Winterfell dragon-less for a while. And dragons like to roam, so using them for aerial reconnaissance is the smart move for several reasons.

The forces at Winterfell prepare for a battle and a possible siege. Knowing how far away the enemy is (i.e. how much time you have left) and from which direction he will advance is of huge importance. Also good to know - are his troops still concentrated in one column or is he preparing a pincer movement; is his vanguard near - are there stragglers (which a dragon could take out without much trouble)? All those things are possible without getting into javelin-reach. The only risk is to run  fly into Viserion - but Drogon and Rhaegal should be able to handle little brother. Last but not least:  putting the dragons to good use would also be good PR. Show those stubborn Northerners that your kids can do more than nibble on livestock.

I agree that the writers were probably planning the dragon joyride as the high-point for Daenerys and Jon but the optics were bad because it came off as ill-timed and irresponsible. Why couldn't they at least pretend there was more to their outing than simply having a bit of fun. Show those two at leaders who know what's at stake.  They could have sent them to check on Last Hearth - just to find the Night's King little grace note. (It's GoT of course chances that they arrive in time to save wee Lord Umber are zero.) 

But isn't this what Bran has done in the past?  Spy on the NK and his army?  Bran can answer all these questions simply by sending a flock of ravens...  It's an unnecessary risk to send the dragons, their main weapon, and Jon/Dany, the only ones who can ride them, to seek out the AOTD when they will be needed for the battle, especially knowing the NK has a weapon that can kill dragons.

I was actually more disbelieving of the Jon/Dany joyride because it seemed like a false character moment for Dany.  I mean, she just found out her dragon has been turned into a wight by the NK.  Would she really be in the happy, playful mood she was in during that scene?  It really seemed strange to me.  I mean, all we've seen so far is how protective Dany is of the dragons and how she considers them her children- and she isn't even SAD over the fact that Viserion is now amongst the undead?  That's worse than just being dead.  I expected a few scenes of a distraught Dany and maybe Jon comforting her, but certainly not fun times.  I mean, I'm happy Jon rode Rhaegal, but the circumstances could have made more sense for the characters than it did.  Not impressed with that writing at all.

[paigow]

6 minutes ago, benteen said:

Lyanna Mormont is Jorah's cousin.

Thanks for correcting me. 

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Mostly I think the food situation was brought up just for drama since they rarely care about any other time. 

We've been shown Sansa talking about it in previous episodes.

[Happy Harpy]

4 hours ago, AnnaL said:

Isn't it kind of funny how even coming out of her own mouth and still some people are trying to pretend that she acted just fine and whoever doesn't fall at her feet needs to be turn into a crisp. 

No, that's not what some people say. Quoting myself:

On 4/15/2019 at 2:45 PM, Happy Harpy said:

Sansa isn't asked to trust Daenerys, she isn't asked to like her, not even by Daenerys herself. She's asked to respect her as her guest, as an ally of her house, as a huge military power that her precious North needs so much.

I, personally, just wanted her to act smart. Sansa was able to be polite to Roose Bolton, the man who betrayed her family and killed her brother, when he welcomed her as a stranger in her own home. You'd think she'd be able to muster a mask of gracious politeness and play the game with an ally she desperately needs to survive...

...and even if she doesn't get how close to annihilation the North is, a smart politician or diplomat wouldn't have antagonized Daenerys anyway. Sansa knows how dangerous Cersei is -which she is, no one said either that Cersei isn't a threat. She can't possibily think that Cersei will give the North its independence, or just even leave it and the Starks be. "She found a way to kill" all her enemies, remember? Since anything is better than Cersei, and since Daenerys is Cersei's competition, it would have been wise to foster that alliance with a constructive attitude in answer to Daenerys' initial good will.

It isn't about Sansa vs Daenerys. It's about the writing for Sansa, who I'm told is astute and the smartest, yet who acts the exact opposite of it.

For me, by the way, the smartest and the wisest character is Davos. I have yet to see anyone else on this show put their feelings aside for the truly urgent/important after an emotional shock, like when he understood how Shireen died just before BoTB.

58 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

We've been shown Sansa talking about it in previous episodes.

In 7x03 and 7x04. She was informed in 7x03 during her round that they had food for a year, maybe more, and asked every keep contribute in case the Northern armies all came to defend WF; in 7x04 there was a throwaway sentence about some keeps not having contributed.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[domina89]

58 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

For me, by the way, the smartest and the wisest character is Davos. I have yet to see anyone else on this show put their feelings aside for the truly urgent/important after an emotional shock, like when he understood how Shireen died just before BoTB.

Agreed.  You also don't see Davos refusing to work with Tyrion even though he was responsible for his son's death.

[Solace247]

On 4/17/2019 at 6:15 AM, Happy Harpy said:

Officially, Drogon ate one child as a rogue. That's it. I've seen theories that it was actually a plot against the dragons, but anyway. Tyrion stressed that dragons are smart and don't hurt people when they have no reason to do so (feeling threatened, or threatening Dany).

If we are talking about the show, didn’t Drogon technically burn a child tending a flock of sheep? It’s horrendous in any event, but I thought it was an accidental overshoot of his fiery swath, hence the father bringing the charred bones to Danaerys (which only remained since he didn’t eat the child). Now, Viserion and Rhaegal, on the other hand....

[Happy Harpy]

30 minutes ago, Solace247 said:

If we are talking about the show, didn’t Drogon technically burn a child tending a flock of sheep? It’s horrendous in any event, but I thought it was an accidental overshoot of his fiery swath, hence the father bringing the charred bones to Danaerys (which only remained since he didn’t eat the child). Now, Viserion and Rhaegal, on the other hand....

The child (a boy) who was seen keeping the flock of sheep wasn't hurt. Drogon roasted a sheep, not him. He's seen flying past the boy before he spits fire.

The father brought the charred bones of his "little girl", in 4x10. All he said is "he came from the sky, the black one" and cried. This is the one child I was talking about.

There is no other known incident involving a dragon eating, killing or even attacking humans without order/unless to protect their mother. In 4x10 Drogon, the culprit, was nowhere to be found; Viserion and Rhaegal had done nothing but Daenerys immediately locked them up, preventively.

Actually, we don't know if Drogon burned the girl or ate her -if it wasn't a fabrication. I chose the latter because in 5x10 and in 8x01, there were charred bones under the dragon(s) after he (they) ate; whereas there were mostly only ashes left of those Drogon burned for non eating purposes (Kraznyk, Lannister soldiers, Tarlys).

Edited April 18, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, domina89 said:

Agreed.  You also don't see Davos refusing to work with Tyrion even though he was responsible for his son's death.

That's because men are written as being the sensible ones while the wimminfolk behave like idiots.

[screamin]

33 minutes ago, Solace247 said:

If we are talking about the show, didn’t Drogon technically burn a child tending a flock of sheep? It’s horrendous in any event, but I thought it was an accidental overshoot of his fiery swath, hence the father bringing the charred bones to Danaerys (which only remained since he didn’t eat the child). Now, Viserion and Rhaegal, on the other hand....

We see that the dragons can leave the charred bones behind of the things they eat this past episode, when we see the dragons toying with the charred bones of the goats and things they presumably ate. Though we also saw one of the dragons swallow an adult human whole at Danaerys' order...the show website said it was Rhaegal who ate him. Maybe they regurgitate the bones after digestion like owls do.

[Nanrad]

9 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

"She's come across some frosty people in her life, but she's been able to kind of get rid of them. She can't get rid of these guys.They just simply don't like her and how can you fight against that? You can't. That's a bitter pill to swallow because at this point her ego is at a place that doesn't handle that too great. But her love for Jon is the thing that allows her to take that breath and try--try--to make friends." -Emilia in the Behind the Scenes video

She doesn't really care about the North, she just wants Jon's approval. This is a toxic situation for Jon. He's trying to save his people while she'd be happy to get rid of them.

You know what else is toxic? The North antagonizing someone, the best bet, coming to save them from the AOTD. His sister not willing to play nice and snarking against a needed ally. 

Regardless of whether or not Dany would be happy to get rid of them, AT LEAST, she was playing nice or trying to. She has no connection to the North and the North’s antagonism makes whatever generosity she has increasingly diminish the more they’re hostile to her. 

Dany isn’t being nice for Jon’s approval—she doesn’t need that. She already has his love. She’s being nice because she loves him and wants to save his childhood home and the people, the Northerners, he loves. 

Almost every person in this series would be happy to get rid of a person or a place who antagonizes them. How is Dany any different?

8 hours ago, screamin said:

Dany's most powerful lord and erstwhile regent of the North said something with rather serious implications for her people's wellbeing - and Dany said nothing about it throughout the episode, much less DID anything about it. That looks like 'ignoring' to me.

You may say that we know Dany DOES care about her people, so we know she won't let them starve, but the North doesn't know it, and what the showrunners are 'spelling out' for them and us is that the new queen has responded to the North's concern with frightening displays and a sarcastic, menacing putdown, without reassuring them she cares about their problems. We the Viewers are being told that it's reasonable for the Northerners to think ill of their new ruler with the limited info they have and the first impressions she's giving, and that she's making a mistake in shrugging off their opinions and making no effort to win them over. 

And yes, I HAVE acknowledged that Sansa was unwarrantedly rude. I have even said she should have been publicly reprimanded at the council. But Dany fixating on Sansa's rudeness and ONLY that rudeness is a big mistake. Dany's getting warning signs from all over. The smallfolks' tense suspicion outside Winterfell wasn't caused by Sansa. Sansa wasn't even the rudest person at the council - that would have been Lady Lyanna, by far. Sansa did not make Lyanna do that. Dismissing and mocking the smallfolk AFTER Jon warned Dany it would take awhile for them to warm up to her is dismissing the idea that she needs to win them over at all, refusing to try to understand the reasons for their distrust beyond "They just suck and deserve to worry that they're going to be burnt where they stand by my babies." And dismissing Lady Lyanna without knowing who she is because she sucks, and that bitch Sansa especially sucks, and she will disregard anything that Sansa says no matter how important it sounds because she will only take advice or warning from people who kiss her ass to her satisfaction. She'll get Jon to do something about Sansa's rudeness and ONLY her rudeness because she's the queen, dammit, and nobody talks to her that way, regardless of whether what they have to say is vital or not. My point is, yes, Sansa took a petty jab at her which undermined her own message - but saying that Sansa's jab exonerates Dany from ANY responsibility for having to consider that message, even though it's being reinforced by many others besides Sansa, is going way too far.

I think it's no coincidence that another 'I'm queen, dammit!" moment is coming back to bite her in the ass - the burning of the Tarlys (which, BTW, Sansa also had nothing to do with).

The problem with mentioning Dany’s actions is that no one else is commenting on them within the series. We say Dany threatened Sansa during the council meeting, no northern beings this up and neither does Sansa. She goes into accusing Jon into kneeling because Dany is pretty. She just received a threat, right? The same goes for the food? Why is she more interested in discussing why Jon knelt than the food shortage that is supposedly this dire issue? 

So, there is a chance that either one or both issues are being overblown OR they’ll be addressed in another episode for better or for worse. But, we can’t criticize Dany for not addressing something when no one else addresses these “huge” issues as well.

I’ve largely addressed comments from viewers about how we “don’t know” of Dany cares or how she’ll treat the North when it comes to the food. Some have said, “she’ll probably feed her army and let the North starve.” Nothing Dany has ever done supports this POV and that’s what I’m disputing. We have an idea of what Dany would do and that’s definitely not allowing the North to starve so her people can eat. As for in the series, we have to allow the storyline to play out. 

Who was at the table? Sansa or Lyanna? Who was Lady of Winterfell while Jon went out to get an ally in Dany? Sansa? Who was responsible for finding enough for to last through winter because she has a position of importance in Jon’s house? Sansa. Sansa has a different role than Lyanna, so she and anyone else sitting at that table should know better than to get snitty with their king or queen. It would be like Tyrion arguing with a Dany in front of lords—inappropriate. That space is for Lyanna to argue if she feels need be, it’s not for Sansa or anyone who has direct access to Dany (Jon) to use that same platform. They have access every single day and can literally voice their opinion any other time. It shows discord. There is no double standard. Sansa is being held to the same standard for someone with her access and power. I never said it exonerated Dany, I’m saying Dany isn’t wrong to react even if it sends the wrong message. Expecting Dany to be 100% unbothered is holding her to a different standard from everyone else who has been put in her position.

We all know that Sansa has nothing to do with that moment and no one has connected her to that moment. It’s quite odd that people want that moment to bite her in the ass when she was justified for killing the Tarlys. 

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Nanrad said:

The problem with mentioning Dany’s actions is that no one else is commenting on them within the series. We say Dany threatened Sansa during the council meeting, no northern beings this up and neither does Sansa. She goes into accusing Jon into kneeling because Dany is pretty. She just received a threat, right?

We saw Dany make a vaguely menacing remark to Sansa that could be construed as a joke if anyone questioned it...no doubt if Sansa confronted Jon about it, that's exactly what Jon would say: "Lighten up, it was a joke!" It's a fight not worth picking. Trouble with such a remark by a queen in her very first council meeting is - it's going to be repeated by everyone, especially if it's her ONLY intervention. Couple that with the fact that her dragons are going around scaring people, and Dany's increasing people's fear and uncertainty without actually attaining the result she wants - getting people to change their manner in council.

People in the council don't know if Dany was making a veiled threat or a tasteless joke. People are blunt in a Northern council, even rude, and they don't stand on ceremony. They don't know what they're dealing with in Dany, and they're testing her the way we've seen them test other new Northern rulers.  They're doing it straightforwardly.  Answering that with passive-aggressive hostile ambiguity won't gain her the respect she wants. Even Dany realizes she might not have communicated what she wanted - hence her subsequent request to Jon to speak to Sansa.

If she wants more respect and a more formal council, she should call out the disrespect publicly and tell her new subjects what she expects from them in council from then on. It would go down better if she ALSO said she would take their requests about food and such under advisement - give and take.

Quote

Why is she more interested in discussing why Jon knelt than the food shortage that is supposedly this dire issue? 

She JUST told the queen, no? The queen she knows little about and needs more info on what kind of person she is? Maybe she'll observe to see if the queen DOES do something about the food herself before immediately nagging Jon about it (who will undoubtedly reply, "You just told her! She'll take care of it, trust her!") We then observed through the rest of the episode and only saw Dany complain about Sansa's rudeness, not do anything about the food.

1 hour ago, Nanrad said:

I’ve largely addressed comments from viewers about how we “don’t know” of Dany cares or how she’ll treat the North when it comes to the food. Some have said, “she’ll probably feed her army and let the North starve.” Nothing Dany has ever done supports this POV and that’s what I’m disputing.

Speaking strictly for myself, I haven't said Dany will "probably feed her army and let the North starve," nor have I seen anyone else say that (though of course, I might have missed it). What I've said is that it's a reasonable fear for the Northerners to have. They went through two rulers (the Boltons) recently who'd have done exactly that, given the choice. They know nothing about Dany except that she's the Mad King's daughter, she has dragons, and she wants the Iron Throne. She needs her army to stay alive if she wants the Iron Throne. Wintering at WF and feeding the stores meant for the Northerners to her army and dragons till springtime is one way to accomplish it. Reassuring the Northerners that she's not going to do that, that their survival matters to her, is the only way she's going to dispel their distrust.

Edited April 18, 2019 by screamin

[arty]

4 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Sansa was able to be polite to Roose Bolton, the man who betrayed her family and killed her brother, when he welcomed her as a stranger in her own home.

Actually, I thought of that scene with Roose when I watched Sansa (barely) greet Dany. While she was much more polite and friendly with Roose, even then she paused for an uncomfortably long time grim-faced before approaching him. I remember watching that scene in S5 and wondering what she was doing being anything but immediately and effusively warm to the man who had no compunctions about literally sticking a knife in her brother's heart.

I think that the show has been consistent about Sansa being defiant/sassy with those she doesn't like even if they wield much greater power than she does. She did it with Joffrey, with Ramsey, and now with Dany. Is it wise? No. Is it in keeping with her characterization? Yes. The main differences in the case with Dany are that Sansa has considerable power and protection of her own, and Dany, unlike the two men, won't retaliate violently.

My big takeaway from this episode is that I am really going to miss checking in on the lives of these characters five weeks from now. With the exception of Euron and Bronn, I care about the fates of the characters that have made it thus far.

I am totally here for Arya and Gendry. Anyone who can make Aray twirl with glee is alright in my book! I loved and was surprised by Maisie's description of Arya's feelings for Gendry, "oh you were once that girl and that's the boy you were in love with and would have followed to the end of the world." Who knew that Arya had such intense feelings for Gendry during their road trip from hell?

Finally, I had to laugh at Jon's face frozen in fury while Sansa and Dany sniped at each other in the council session. A clever poster on WoTW's episode thread mused that immobile Jon was probably dreaming of simpler times - his visit to Hardhome, for example 😉

Edited April 18, 2019 by arty

[Nanrad]

59 minutes ago, screamin said:

We saw Dany make a vaguely menacing remark to Sansa that could be construed as a joke if anyone questioned it...no doubt if Sansa confronted Jon about it, that's exactly what Jon would say: "Lighten up, it was a joke!" It's a fight not worth picking. Trouble with such a remark by a queen in her very first council meeting is - it's going to be repeated by everyone, especially if it's her ONLY intervention. Couple that with the fact that her dragons are going around scaring people, and Dany's increasing people's fear and uncertainty without actually attaining the result she wants - getting people to change their manner in council.

People in the council don't know if Dany was making a veiled threat or a tasteless joke. People are blunt in a Northern council, even rude, and they don't stand on ceremony. They don't know what they're dealing with in Dany, and they're testing her the way we've seen them test other new Northern rulers.  They're doing it straightforwardly.  Answering that with passive-aggressive hostile ambiguity won't gain her the respect she wants. Even Dany realizes she might not have communicated what she wanted - hence her subsequent request to Jon to speak to Sansa.

If she wants more respect and a more formal council, she should call out the disrespect publicly and tell her new subjects what she expects from them in council from then on. It would go down better if she ALSO said she would take their requests about food and such under advisement - give and take.

She JUST told the queen, no? The queen she knows little about and needs more info on what kind of person she is? Maybe she'll observe to see if the queen DOES do something about the food herself before immediately nagging Jon about it (who will undoubtedly reply, "You just told her! She'll take care of it, trust her!") We then observed through the rest of the episode and only saw Dany complain about Sansa's rudeness, not do anything about the food.

Speaking strictly for myself, I haven't said Dany will "probably feed her army and let the North starve," nor have I seen anyone else say that (though of course, I might have missed it). What I've said is that it's a reasonable fear for the Northerners to have. They went through two rulers (the Boltons) recently who'd have done exactly that, given the choice. They know nothing about Dany except that she's the Mad King's daughter, she has dragons, and she wants the Iron Throne. She needs her army to stay alive if she wants the Iron Throne. Wintering at WF and feeding the stores meant for the Northerners to her army and dragons till springtime is one way to accomplish it. Reassuring the Northerners that she's not going to do that, that their survival matters to her, is the only way she's going to dispel their distrust.

It's obvious that people truly think very little of Jon that, even if he does believe it's a joke, that's he'd belittle Sansa's concern in such a way. But, this is par for the course, right? Jon gets judged for something without even being given the chance to react to a situation. People just assume the worst possible outcome because Sansa is the "smartest" person on the show and knows best. This is the first time I've heard anyone who is critical of Dany say that her comment could be construed as a joke, despite it being a threat. But, then again, I'm not surprised by this either. Other than being hidden, Dany's dragons will always scare people. That's just a fact of life.

No, her issue wasn't with the council, it was with Sansa. And she didn't speak with Jon because she thought she mishandled the situation, she spoke with Jon because she believes Sansa will be less hostile and passive aggressive with him. Before Dany's quip, Sans was already behaving in a stank manner despite her pretty words. Interestingly enough, Dany's remark about Winterfell being pretty and Sansa being just as pretty is seen as empty words, BUT Sansa saying Winterfell is Dany's despite giving Dany a stank look is seen as genuine. lol. So, we can't claim that Sansa was only behaving a certain way due to Dany's threat or that Dany was going around saying and doing whatever when she tried to be courtesy to Sansa upon their first meeting. Which was the similar compliment that Sansa gave Lady Mormont. I guess Sansa was being fake too. But, I digress, Dany has never mentioned having an issue with the North's behavior and I don't see why people keep trying to conflate Dany's legitimate issue with Sansa with her non expressed feelings for the North.

We don't know how the rest of that meeting went or concluded because the scene was ended. How can we judge her for something she may or may have not done if there is no evidence to support it either way. Sansa also doesn't bring it up to Jon, which clearly Jon isn't a trusted character for the viewer anymore, or anyone else for that matter. But, why wouldn't Jon care about his people eating? Why wouldn't the series show how enamored with Dany at all cost by showing us him being dismissive of Dany's threat? So, either this was addressed and not show OR this will be addressed later on. But, there is very little evidence to definitively argue that Dany doesn't care or ignored the request altogether.

True, she just told the queen, so shouldn't Dany be given time to rectify the issue, no? Jon is not her food person. Jon is not the person she talks about those issues with. Why would she have that conversation with Jon? But, this is like the second or third time you've assumed that Jon is going to immediately put Dany over the North and Sansa's concerns because they're together. There is no evidence of this. Jon has always put duty over love. Jon didn't bring Dany North to watch Northerners starve. My point being is this: either Dany is ignoring the food concern or she isn't. As of now, we don't know, yet there are a lot of proclamations that she is because it wasn't immediately addressed right then and there, DESPITE the scene ending before the meeting concluded. So, if in next episode, Dany has an abundance of food for her men to eat, what then? Oh, I guess she did listen to Sansa's concerns. Then, people will shrug it off as if they haven't been definitively stated that it was ignored and she is just trying to eat the North's food to the detriment of the North.

If Dany doesn't rectify the issue, I won't be wrong because I'm not assuming anything, but allowing the story to play out. But, some just want to assume the worst of Dany because she's powerful and is butting heads with Sansa.

For the most part, the issue has been with Sansa tho. Yea, people are making flippant remarks about the North, but the issue is about how the "smartest" woman in the North is behaving idiotic all because she's upset Jon bent the knee and didn't consult her.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Nanrad

[iMonrey]

Quote

So . . . am I the only one who finds it unlikely that Cersei would send Bronn to kill Tyrion and Jaimie?  Does she even KNOW Bronn?  We know the two actors have NEVER had a scene together because they are former lovers who had a bad break-up and, apparently, won't consent to act opposite one another.

If true, that's terribly unprofessional of them. Nicol Williamson and Helen Mirren were in a similar situation (former lovers, bad breakup) but put aside their differences to work together on Excalibur, and used their animosity to fuel their performances.

[screamin]

2 hours ago, Nanrad said:

It's obvious that people truly think very little of Jon that, even if he does believe it's a joke, that's he'd belittle Sansa's concern in such a way. But, this is par for the course, right? Jon gets judged for something without even being given the chance to react to a situation.

Dude, Jon was sitting right there when Dany made her little menacing wisecrack. He heard it. But he made no reference to it at all when he spoke to Sansa afterwards. That's his reaction.

You admit that Dany's remark had a threatening aspect, here: "We say Dany threatened Sansa during the council meeting...This is the first time I've heard anyone who is critical of Dany say that her comment could be construed as a joke, despite it being a threat." Do you think that good-hearted Jon would consider a real threat to feed his sister to a dragon too unimportant to mention? I don't think so, and IMO, neither would Sansa. She thinks Jon's not too bright and too easily led by his heart (and currently his dick) but I don't think she doubts his goodness of heart. I think that if Jon heard his queen make what he thought was a serious threat to Sansa, he would consider it important enough to immediately warn Sansa she's acting dangerously, for her own safety. He didn't. Ergo, he must have thought it was an unimportant little joke, not worth mentioning. QED.

But even if I'm wrong here, even Jon thought it WAS a serious threat, that means that usually good-hearted Jon has been warped enough by his infatuation that he didn't give enough of a shit about Sansa's safety to warn her that Dany's serious about threatening her, and she had better change her ways with Dany, or else.

In either case Sansa's confronting him about it would be waste motion; he doesn't consider it important enough to mention himself, so Sansa bringing it up would be minimized - he's already minimizing it by considering it beneath notice. Therefore, Sansa asking him to think about just how far his feelings for Dany have warped his judgement is really the more important question.

Edited April 19, 2019 by screamin

[screamin]

Oops, double post.

Edited April 19, 2019 by screamin

[Nanrad]

58 minutes ago, screamin said:

Dude, Jon was sitting right there when Dany made her little menacing wisecrack. He heard it. But he made no reference to it at all when he spoke to Sansa afterwards. That's his reaction.

You admit that Dany's remark had a threatening aspect, here: "We say Dany threatened Sansa during the council meeting...This is the first time I've heard anyone who is critical of Dany say that her comment could be construed as a joke, despite it being a threat." Do you think that good-hearted Jon would consider a real threat to feed his sister to a dragon too unimportant to mention? I don't think so, and IMO, neither would Sansa. She thinks Jon's not too bright and too easily led by his heart (and currently his dick) but I don't think she doubts his goodness of heart. I think that if Jon heard his queen make what he thought was a serious threat to Sansa, he would consider it important enough to immediately warn Sansa she's acting dangerously, for her own safety. He didn't. Ergo, he must have thought it was an unimportant little joke, not worth mentioning. QED.

But even if I'm wrong here, even Jon thought it WAS a serious threat, that means that usually good-hearted Jon has been warped enough by his infatuation that he didn't give enough of a shit about Sansa's safety to warn her that Dany's serious about threatening her, and she had better change her ways with Dany, or else.

In either case Sansa's confronting him about it would be waste motion; he doesn't consider it important enough to mention himself, so Sansa bringing it up would be minimized - he's already minimizing it by considering it beneath notice. Therefore, Sansa asking him to think about just how far his feelings for Dany have warped his judgement is really the more important question.

How you see Dany’s remarks and how I see it are very different. I’m referring to it in the context in which you see. I’ve always argued that Sansa and the North saw her remark differently than those who are upset about Dany’s remark.

why is it that people think sansa is the only smart person in this show and the only one looking out for the well being of others? Even if Jon wasn’t involved with Dany and reacted the same way, there’d be an excuse for how he’s wrong for that too. Dany can’t even breath without being accused of being mad or doing something wrong. And Jon’s very existence means that he’s inept.

Sansa didn’t ask him anything tho. Lol. And it’s also unfair as to what she’s implying because they need Dany regardless of if people can accept it or not. Jon did exactly what he said he was going to do when he left WF, yet now it’s being argue he only did that because he’s in love and thinking with his dick???

okay. Lol

Edited April 19, 2019 by Nanrad

[FemmyV]

Northerners expect NK to be at their doorstep in two days.

They're only going to need to worry about food if they defeat that army. If they do, they can round up stores afterwards.

[Andromeda]

10 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

That's because men are written as being the sensible ones while the wimminfolk behave like idiots.

You know,  that's a good point.  The HBO behind the scenes video for this episode has them discussing Sansa's attitude toward Dany as all about womanly threat.  It's not about food, or the northerners,  or anything like that. (Those are valid concerns,  but her motive at the council was personal).  Its all who gets to be the HBIC (my words) -- run the place,  be the top chick,  and be who has Jon's ear. And probably even who is hottest. 

I love Sansa.  She's a remarkable testament to female spirit withstanding harsh odds.  But she's human (like me) so I understand the writers writing her this way. She's still young.  I hope she chills out,  but since they wrote her this way in ep 1,  I expect she'll change her behavior toward Dany for the better once she realizes they're all in this together and there's no reason to feel threatened by another powerful woman. 

That said,  we see less evidence on this show of men behaving petty toward other men. (There are numerous examples on sitcoms,  so men can be petty on TV,  too.)  I can't really think of a GOT example,  but my memory isn't stellar for details. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Andromeda

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, Andromeda said:

That said,  we see less evidence on this show of men behaving petty toward other men. (There are numerous examples on sitcoms,  so men can be petty,  too.)  I can't really think of a GOT example,  but my memory isn't stellar. 

There were, but they get less attention. There was Joffrey taking away the stool during Tyrion's wedding to Sansa. Joffrey ironizing about Jaime's accomplishments or lack thereof. Pycelle letting drop the message on the floor instead of giving it to Tyrion during the council after the RW. The Baratheon brothers were the kings of petty between themselves (Catelyn's reaction to Renly/Stannis, LOL). Jaime and Loras trading jabs about Cersei marrying the former at the RW. The lords mocking Tyrion in S3, during his stroll with Sansa. Euron with Jaime -"with a thousand ships and two good hands". Daario with all the "old" jokes against Jorah. Aliser Thorne vs Jon, or telling Sam he's losing all his friends in 5x07 after Aemon's death etc.

Probably impopular because for some reason he's a fan favorite, but Barristan Selmy vs Jorah. Barristan never liked Jorah, imo he didn't like to share Daenerys' ear with him, and was low-key gleeful when Jorah was expelled. Varys knew his job, he sent the scroll with the pardon to the right person, LOL.

9 hours ago, arty said:

I think that the show has been consistent about Sansa being defiant/sassy with those she doesn't like even if they wield much greater power than she does. She did it with Joffrey, with Ramsey, and now with Dany. Is it wise? No. Is it in keeping with her characterization? Yes. The main differences in the case with Dany are that Sansa has considerable power and protection of her own, and Dany, unlike the two men, won't retaliate violently.

You put the finger on one of the issues, for me. Her attitude was never wise indeed, yet it was Sansa's weapon or rather, her only outlet, when she was a "stupid little girl" per her own words, and when she had no agency. She used it against evil men who had, could and would hurt her on a whim, so it had a "oh no she didn't" sassy quality. In spite of her being compared to Hitler in this very thread, Daenerys isn't evil, she isn't a Joffrey nor a Ramsay. So against her, Sansa's attitude isn't sassy, it isn't a form of brave recklessness; it's just stupid and sounds extra petulant ("I can be rude and get away with it"). It's also extra petty, vs women, because she's pissed off at Jon for bending the knee but it's Daenerys she's rude to in public. BTW had Dany arrived with a haughty atittude and asked Sansa kiss her ass, asked she kneel, for example, instead of the  graciousness she actually showed, I would have had no issue with Sansa responding with frostiness ("responding", being the key word here).

9 hours ago, arty said:

I am totally here for Arya and Gendry. Anyone who can make Aray twirl with glee is alright in my book! I loved and was surprised by Maisie's description of Arya's feelings for Gendry, "oh you were once that girl and that's the boy you were in love with and would have followed to the end of the world." Who knew that Arya had such intense feelings for Gendry during their road trip from hell?

Yes, it was so great to see Arya gleeful and playful and smiling. And I knew it, LOL. Gendry was the first friend she made after her father's death, he was the longest and closest presence in her life during her trials in the Riverlands (Yoren died in S2, Hot Pie was left earlier in S3) so to me, it's only normal she was extremely attached to him and wouldn't want to leave him, even if it meant going to the end of the world. The scene where she looks at Gendry shirtless was supposed to show that Arya was growing up and waking up to some new feelings, IIRC. For the take they kept of the infamous "I could be your family", the director asked Maisie to say it like "I love you"*. And well, Arya put Melisandre, Beric and Thoros on her list for what they did to him, with her it's a serious proof of affection :))

About the list, I've always wondered why D&D took those three names off it in S5. I wonder if it will resurface in 8x02, it would make Beric's arrival interesting...to say the least. Maybe it'll just be a loose end.

*Now, I can't help but link this scene to Arya and Nymeria in 7x02. Gendry wanted to stay with the Brotherhood to be free; she argued at first, but then she let him go. Nymeria wanted to stay free in the wild, and Arya let her go. There's a pattern here, imo, or at least an expression of Arya's love and need for freedom as well as a selfless acceptance of that same need in her loved ones.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Happy Harpy

[Andromeda]

36 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

There were, but they get less attention. There was Joffrey taking away the stool during Tyrion's wedding to Sansa. Joffrey ironizing about Jaime's accomplishments or lack thereof. Pycelle letting drop the message on the floor instead of giving it to Tyrion during the council after the RW. The Baratheon brothers were the kings of petty between themselves (Catelyn's reaction to Renly/Stannis, LOL). Jaime and Loras trading jabs about Cersei marrying the former at the RW. The lords mocking Tyrion in S3, during his stroll with Sansa. Euron with Jaime -"with a thousand ships and two good hands". Daario with all the "old" jokes against Jorah. Aliser Thorne vs Jon, or telling Sam he's losing all his friends in 5x07 after Aemon's death etc.

I  bow down to you.  Excellent list. 😃

Edited April 19, 2019 by Andromeda
My tablet sucks

[Happy Harpy]

6 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

I  bow down to you.  Excellent list. 😃

It began with Joffrey and the stool at the top of my head, and then the others came rolling LOL.

There are two others examples I didn't put in the list, whereas you don't get pettier than those: Walder Frey avenging his hurt ego with the RW, and Locke cutting Jaime's hand to teach a lesson to Golden Boy. It might explain why pettiness between men gets less attention: It often ends in violence, so in the end, it's violence that stands out.

[Constantinople]

7 hours ago, Andromeda said:

That said,  we see less evidence on this show of men behaving petty toward other men. (There are numerous examples on sitcoms,  so men can be petty on TV,  too.)  I can't really think of a GOT example,  but my memory isn't stellar for details. 

There's an example at the start of this episode

Quote

Tyrion: You should consider yourself lucky. At least your balls won't freeze off.
Varys: You take great offense at dwarf jokes, but love telling eunuch jokes. Why is that?
Tyrion: Because I have balls, and you don't.

[screamin]

9 hours ago, Nanrad said:

How you see Dany’s remarks and how I see it are very different. I’m referring to it in the context in which you see. I’ve always argued that Sansa and the North saw her remark differently than those who are upset about Dany’s remark.

So...you're sure that Dany's remark in council was a clear and serious threat and not just a snide putdown, and that everyone there understood it so. To me that doesn't square with  tenderhearted Jon, who's always minded Ned "The Pack Survives" Stark, not warning his sister "SHE'LL KILL YOU IF YOU DON'T!" when asking her to please be nicer to Dany. Nor does it square with Dany's later need to repeat the threat through Jon (when she knows he'd ALREADY spoken to Sansa after her remark), nor  his shocked, uneasy face when Dany requests he do so. But you do you.

12 hours ago, Nanrad said:

No, her issue wasn't with the council, it was with Sansa.

I agree that Dany's issue is with Sansa, not the council. And it's her hyperfocus on a symptom instead of the disease at large that is Dany's problem. Sansa's rudeness is not the cause of the smallfolk's distrust and uneasiness with the dragons, Lyanna's anger at what she feels is Jon's betrayal, the whole North's less than enthusiastic reception of Dany. There's a whole lot of really important causes behind that coldness - the trauma of losing many of their number to vicious wars due to incompetent or actively malevolent leaders, the fact that those wars limited their food production so their survival of winter is on a razor's edge, the fact that the winter stores they DO have can take the Northerners OR Dany's army through winter - not both. The fact that they don't know what kind of a leader she is and what would she do, given that choice.

Dany decides that the ONLY political intervention she's going to make in the North that episode, besides telling the North in council that her dragons 'eat whatever they want' while they're soaring continuously overhead, is to have her lover tell his sister that she'd BETTER not be rude again or else. IMO, that's like a doctor looking at a patient with complicated chicken pox and nearsightedly draining one pustule - not even the biggest pustule. It's treating the symptom instead of the disease. It won't help the patient, and it will certainly inspire great distrust in the patient against the doctor who has his life in his hands.

Why is Dany ONLY focusing on Sansa? Does she think Sansa, as the highest ranking lord in the council, is the ringleader of the opposition against her, and that if she makes her behave courteously everyone else will follow her lead meekly? That's an understandable mistake on Dany's part, but the North doesn't work that way. The spectacle of Sansa obsequiously toadying to Dany would not make Lyanna and lords like her fall in line like ducklings. Dany would know that if she spent more time asking Jon about her new kingdom instead of telling him what she wants. Is she focusing on Sansa because her relationship with Jon makes her feel she's the most important person to bend to her will? That's pushing her political power into her romantic relationship with Jon, a less understandable mistake.  Either way, she's making prominent public mistakes when she's got a critically ill kingdom in front of her.

You and others have said that it doesn't MATTER about the food, or about whether people believe that Dany might be Ramsey with tits and dragons - the NK is coming NOW! I say it matters a great deal. Everyone knows that even if they defeat the NK soundly, MANY of them are going to die and it will be a horrible slaughter. I think it was Confucius who said that the three necessities of a nation are food, weapons, and faith in the leader. If the nation must do without one of them, it should do without weapons first, if they must choose between the two left, they should choose to do without food, for everyone must die someday, but without faith in the leader, the nation is doomed. Dany is resting her confidence in her weapons and brushing off the importance of both food and faith in the leader, which the North is conspicuously short of right now.

Morale is hugely important in a desperate battle situation. People ARE willing to stand and die, to be sent off into suicidal charges to give other people on the field a chance to win the battle, to fight to the last man (or woman) - IF they have confidence that their leader has their good at heart and is going to do their best to not waste their lives unless it's absolutely necessary to win, and will take good care of their loved ones after they're gone. If they think that Dany doesn't care about that while they march into battle - if they think she might send Northerners into battle in the front lines before her own troops so she can save them for KL later, if they think that after the slaughter she might just leave their loved ones to starve to feed her armies for the spring march on KL - they won't be able to fight as well. With morale low, the immediate obedience necessary for a battlefield gets dicey, the prospect of panicking, breaking and running instead of standing to the last man is a far greater danger. If that happens, that will be the fault of the leader for ignoring morale. The bucks stops with the leader.

[Andromeda]

6 hours ago, Constantinople said:

There's an example at the start of this episode

That's for sure an example (so tired of the balls/dwarf jokes), but it differs in that these two know each other well and are intentionally sparring. That's not the case with Sansa and Dany's digs at each other — which began with Sansa being unwelcoming.

[Nanrad]

10 hours ago, screamin said:

So...you're sure that Dany's remark in council was a clear and serious threat and not just a snide putdown, and that everyone there understood it so. To me that doesn't square with  tenderhearted Jon, who's always minded Ned "The Pack Survives" Stark, not warning his sister "SHE'LL KILL YOU IF YOU DON'T!" when asking her to please be nicer to Dany. Nor does it square with Dany's later need to repeat the threat through Jon (when she knows he'd ALREADY spoken to Sansa after her remark), nor  his shocked, uneasy face when Dany requests he do so. But you do you.

I agree that Dany's issue is with Sansa, not the council. And it's her hyperfocus on a symptom instead of the disease at large that is Dany's problem. Sansa's rudeness is not the cause of the smallfolk's distrust and uneasiness with the dragons, Lyanna's anger at what she feels is Jon's betrayal, the whole North's less than enthusiastic reception of Dany. There's a whole lot of really important causes behind that coldness - the trauma of losing many of their number to vicious wars due to incompetent or actively malevolent leaders, the fact that those wars limited their food production so their survival of winter is on a razor's edge, the fact that the winter stores they DO have can take the Northerners OR Dany's army through winter - not both. The fact that they don't know what kind of a leader she is and what would she do, given that choice.

Dany decides that the ONLY political intervention she's going to make in the North that episode, besides telling the North in council that her dragons 'eat whatever they want' while they're soaring continuously overhead, is to have her lover tell his sister that she'd BETTER not be rude again or else. IMO, that's like a doctor looking at a patient with complicated chicken pox and nearsightedly draining one pustule - not even the biggest pustule. It's treating the symptom instead of the disease. It won't help the patient, and it will certainly inspire great distrust in the patient against the doctor who has his life in his hands.

Why is Dany ONLY focusing on Sansa? Does she think Sansa, as the highest ranking lord in the council, is the ringleader of the opposition against her, and that if she makes her behave courteously everyone else will follow her lead meekly? That's an understandable mistake on Dany's part, but the North doesn't work that way. The spectacle of Sansa obsequiously toadying to Dany would not make Lyanna and lords like her fall in line like ducklings. Dany would know that if she spent more time asking Jon about her new kingdom instead of telling him what she wants. Is she focusing on Sansa because her relationship with Jon makes her feel she's the most important person to bend to her will? That's pushing her political power into her romantic relationship with Jon, a less understandable mistake.  Either way, she's making prominent public mistakes when she's got a critically ill kingdom in front of her.

You and others have said that it doesn't MATTER about the food, or about whether people believe that Dany might be Ramsey with tits and dragons - the NK is coming NOW! I say it matters a great deal. Everyone knows that even if they defeat the NK soundly, MANY of them are going to die and it will be a horrible slaughter. I think it was Confucius who said that the three necessities of a nation are food, weapons, and faith in the leader. If the nation must do without one of them, it should do without weapons first, if they must choose between the two left, they should choose to do without food, for everyone must die someday, but without faith in the leader, the nation is doomed. Dany is resting her confidence in her weapons and brushing off the importance of both food and faith in the leader, which the North is conspicuously short of right now.

Morale is hugely important in a desperate battle situation. People ARE willing to stand and die, to be sent off into suicidal charges to give other people on the field a chance to win the battle, to fight to the last man (or woman) - IF they have confidence that their leader has their good at heart and is going to do their best to not waste their lives unless it's absolutely necessary to win, and will take good care of their loved ones after they're gone. If they think that Dany doesn't care about that while they march into battle - if they think she might send Northerners into battle in the front lines before her own troops so she can save them for KL later, if they think that after the slaughter she might just leave their loved ones to starve to feed her armies for the spring march on KL - they won't be able to fight as well. With morale low, the immediate obedience necessary for a battlefield gets dicey, the prospect of panicking, breaking and running instead of standing to the last man is a far greater danger. If that happens, that will be the fault of the leader for ignoring morale. The bucks stops with the leader.

No, I'm sure that you've consistently misconstrued my words to argue angles I'm not arguing, and then running away with them. IMO, that may have not construed it as the fans have, but WE STILL DON'T KNOW EITHER WAY. I've pointed out that a lot of assumptions are being made on very little evidence and STILL it continues. We LITERALLY don't know. Haven't you and and Sansa said that Jon has to be smarter than Ned and when Jon tries to do that, that's a problem too? He isn't telling Sansa to kiss Dany's ass, he's telling her not to antagonize an ally. But, apparently, telling the "smartest" woman in Westeroes not to antagonize a key ally is a big ask because, "the North has ever reason to wary of Dany." Although as true as that may be, Sansa is supposed to be smarter than that. She's supposed to be cunning and set pieces into motion. Her reaction towards Dany and the very idea of not showing her hand proves the opposite of what many others constantly claims about her smarts and political savvy.

Okay, but who said Sansa's rudeness influenced how the townsfolk feel??? Literally no one has said that. No one. We said that her rudeness doesn't help because it further adds to that fire. And, again, we don't know how Dany is planning to address the issues the North has with her or if she's ignoring it. That is ANOTHER assumption being framed as truth. Our issue with Sansa's reaction plays into the narrative that she's oh so smart and a player of the game as she does something that contradicts these claims.

Again, you don't know if that's the ONLY thing she's done. It's the ONLY thing we've seen, which is a difference. But, even if she had done more, you'd still find a way to find a fault in that. At this rate, her breathing will be an issue.

Why wouldn't she focus on Sansa? It becomes more and more obvious that this isn't about Dany making all of the wrong moves, but people finding any and every way they can not to hold Sansa accountable for anything at all. Sansa is AT the council table, she is the one who is supposed to be hearing grievances with Dany, she's not supposed to be giving them out. It isn't her job to kiss Dany's ass, it's her job to make sure crap runs smoothly in the North, whether that be organizing getting the food, hearing the grievances, informing Dany (Jon) what peoples grievances are--not joining the Lords in complaining. Her complaints should be done one on one to Dany. Although both Ned and Tyrion were/are Hands of the King/Queen, they've also never done this either, despite what ever issues they had/have. If you are at the table, you conduct yourself the same as well. That's why Dany has an issue with Sansa and not the North. Or, because of Sansa's ties to the community as well as Sansa sitting at the table, it's important for Sansa to not be openly feuding with Dany. Ironically, despite many accusing Dany of not trying non violent approaches, she does the most sensible thing and TALKS to Sansa's brother and even this is an issue because supposedly, "She's trying to convince her lover to get his sister to love her."

Everything gets distorted to prove Sansa right and everyone else in the wrong. Everything.

Confucius was also fighting a HUMAN army. I stand by my statement that it DOES NOT matter if they don't have enough food because the NK is coming in a day or so. If they are all killed off by the NK come sundown, there is no one alive to eat the food. Now, there is food rotting, but at least is there food, right? TBH, I think that Ramsey/Dany (who has tits and dragons) comparison is bogus even for the North. The North has shown that not only do they not remember, it's their way or no way even if that means death. Oh, sure, they've warmed up to Sansa NOW, but remember when they also turned their back after Ramsey terrorized them? Regardless of if we say Jon is stupid, which I don't believe, Jon fought the battle for them while MANY house sat out. They know that Jon is willing to die for what is right and what he believes is right, yet they are two seconds from turning on Jon because he bent the knee to get the ally that he told them that they needed--again, after how many houses sat out during that first battle? I'm SO over the North and their pride.

For a group of people sooooo afraid, they sure d on't act like it.

Dany isn't brushing off people needing to have faith in a leader, but what can she do besides not have her dragons or react to rudeness and be overly emotional about a treasonous house to make the last remaining member feel better? What can she do in two days? The North is never going to trust her in order for them to have faith in her, so what exactly are you arguing? Even her initial niceness was said to be fake. This is a no win situation for Dany due to her grandfather and because she had dragons, something they need, but we'll skip over that last part.

You know what is also important in battles: the will to live and the idea that there is something to fight for. IF they still need to believe in Dany in order to fight the NK once he arrives, they then deserve to get killed off if they don't fight. How is their survival not important? Or fighting for their loved ones? Or fighting so that their kids have a better, safer world not important? This isn't FOR Dany, this is FOR mankind. If they don't get that when the NK comes, if they lose, that's on them not Dany. It's hilarious to harp on how important leader morale is when you also talk about them being mistrustful and suspicious of her. There is no way for Dany to rectify this before the battle.

Honestly, explain what Dany could've done in two days to get their North's trust and to raise morale for the North to fight for her. Because, based off of your post, she had options to the point of where she could turn the tide in her favor for them to become supporters of her in two days.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Nanrad

[GraceK]

9 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

No, I'm sure that you've consistently misconstrued my words to argue angles I'm not arguing, and then running away with them. IMO, that may have not construed it as the fans have, but WE STILL DON'T KNOW EITHER WAY. I've pointed out that a lot of assumptions are being made on very little evidence and STILL it continues. We LITERALLY don't know. Haven't you and and Sansa said that Jon has to be smarter than Ned and when Jon tries to do that, that's a problem too? He isn't telling Sansa to kiss Dany's ass, he's telling her not to antagonize an ally. But, apparently, telling the "smartest" woman in Westeroes not to antagonize a key ally is a big ask because, "the North has ever reason to wary of Dany." Although as true as that may be, Sansa is supposed to be smarter than that. She's supposed to be cunning and set pieces into motion. Her reaction towards Dany and the very idea of not showing her hand proves the opposite of what many others constantly claims about her smarts and political savvy.

Okay, but who said Sansa's rudeness influenced how the townsfolk feel??? Literally no one has said that. No one. We said that her rudeness doesn't help because it further adds to that fire. And, again, we don't know how Dany is planning to address the issues the North has with her or if she's ignoring it. That is ANOTHER assumption being framed as truth. Our issue with Sansa's reaction plays into the narrative that she's oh so smart and a player of the game as she does something that contradicts these claims.

Again, you don't know if that's the ONLY thing she's done. It's the ONLY thing we've seen, which is a difference. But, even if she had done more, you'd still find a way to find a fault in that. At this rate, her breathing will be an issue.

Why wouldn't she focus on Sansa? It becomes more and more obvious that this isn't about Dany making all of the wrong moves, but people finding any and every way they can not to hold Sansa accountable for anything at all. Sansa is AT the council table, she is the one who is supposed to be hearing grievances with Dany, she's not supposed to be giving them out. It isn't her job to kiss Dany's ass, it's her job to make sure crap runs smoothly in the North, whether that be organizing getting the food, hearing the grievances, informing Dany (Jon) what peoples grievances are--not joining the Lords in complaining. Her complaints should be done one on one to Dany. Although both Ned and Tyrion were/are Hands of the King/Queen, they've also never done this either, despite what ever issues they had/have. If you are at the table, you conduct yourself the same as well. That's why Dany has an issue with Sansa and not the North. Or, because of Sansa's ties to the community as well as Sansa sitting at the table, it's important for Sansa to not be openly feuding with Dany. Ironically, despite many accusing Dany of not trying non violent approaches, she does the most sensible thing and TALKS to Sansa's brother and even this is an issue because supposedly, "She's trying to convince her lover to get his sister to love her."

Everything gets distorted to prove Sansa right and everyone else in the wrong. Everything.

Confucius was also fighting a HUMAN army. I stand by my statement that it DOES NOT matter if they don't have enough food because the NK is coming in a day or so. If they are all killed off by the NK come sundown, there is no one alive to eat the food. Now, there is food rotting, but at least is there food, right? TBH, I think that Ramsey/Dany (who has tits and dragons) comparison is bogus even for the North. The North has shown that not only do they not remember, it's their way or no way even if that means death. Oh, sure, they've warmed up to Sansa NOW, but remember when they also turned their back after Ramsey terrorized them? Regardless of if we say Jon is stupid, which I don't believe, Jon fought the battle for them while MANY house say out. They know that Jon is willing to die for what is right and what he believes is right, yet they are two seconds from turning on Jon because he bent the knee to get the ally that he told them that they needed--again, after how many houses sat out during that first battle? I'm SO over the North and their pride.

For a group of people sooooo afraid, they sure d on't act like it.

Dany isn't brushing off people needing to have faith in a leader, but what can she do besides not have her dragons or react to rudeness and be overly emotional about a treasonous house to make the last remaining member feel better? What can she do in two days? The North is never going to truth her in order for them to have faith in her, so what exactly are you arguing? Even her initial niceness was said to be fake. This is a no win situation for Dany due to her grandfather and because she had dragons, something they need, but we'll skip over that last part.

You know what is also important in battles: the will to live and the idea that there is something to fight for. IF they still need to believe in Dany in order to fight the NK once he arrives, they then deserve to get killed off if they don't fight. How is their survival not important? Or fighting for their loved ones? Or fighting so that their kids have a better, safer world not important? This isn't FOR Dany, this is FOR mankind. If they don't get that when the NK comes, if they lose, that's on them not Dany. It's hilarious to harp on how important leader morale is when you also talk about them being mistrustful and suspicious of her. There is no way for Dany to rectify this before the battle.

Honestly, explain what Dany could've done in two days to get their North's trust and to raise morale for the North to fight for her. Because, based off of your post, she had options to the point of where she could turn the tide in her favor for them to become supporters of her in two days.

This is beautiful. Thank you.

[YaddaYadda]

12 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

TBH, I think that Ramsey/Dany (who has tits and dragons) comparison is bogus even for the North.

Is this for real? Because wow!

[Nanrad]

10 hours ago, screamin said:

You and others have said that it doesn't MATTER about the food, or about whether people believe that Dany might be Ramsey with tits and dragons - the NK is coming NOW! 

1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

Is this for real? Because wow!

You can be the judge of how you interpret that.

[Andromeda]

2 hours ago, Nanrad said:

No, I'm sure that you've consistently misconstrued my words to argue angles I'm not arguing, and then running away with them. IMO, that may have not construed it as the fans have, but WE STILL DON'T KNOW EITHER WAY. I've pointed out that a lot of assumptions are being made on very little evidence and STILL it continues. We LITERALLY don't know. Haven't you and and Sansa said that Jon has to be smarter than Ned and when Jon tries to do that, that's a problem too? He isn't telling Sansa to kiss Dany's ass, he's telling her not to antagonize an ally. But, apparently, telling the "smartest" woman in Westeroes not to antagonize a key ally is a big ask because, "the North has ever reason to wary of Dany." Although as true as that may be, Sansa is supposed to be smarter than that. She's supposed to be cunning and set pieces into motion. Her reaction towards Dany and the very idea of not showing her hand proves the opposite of what many others constantly claims about her smarts and political savvy.

Okay, but who said Sansa's rudeness influenced how the townsfolk feel??? Literally no one has said that. No one. We said that her rudeness doesn't help because it further adds to that fire. And, again, we don't know how Dany is planning to address the issues the North has with her or if she's ignoring it. That is ANOTHER assumption being framed as truth. Our issue with Sansa's reaction plays into the narrative that she's oh so smart and a player of the game as she does something that contradicts these claims.

Again, you don't know if that's the ONLY thing she's done. It's the ONLY thing we've seen, which is a difference. But, even if she had done more, you'd still find a way to find a fault in that. At this rate, her breathing will be an issue.

Why wouldn't she focus on Sansa? It becomes more and more obvious that this isn't about Dany making all of the wrong moves, but people finding any and every way they can not to hold Sansa accountable for anything at all. Sansa is AT the council table, she is the one who is supposed to be hearing grievances with Dany, she's not supposed to be giving them out. It isn't her job to kiss Dany's ass, it's her job to make sure crap runs smoothly in the North, whether that be organizing getting the food, hearing the grievances, informing Dany (Jon) what peoples grievances are--not joining the Lords in complaining. Her complaints should be done one on one to Dany. Although both Ned and Tyrion were/are Hands of the King/Queen, they've also never done this either, despite what ever issues they had/have. If you are at the table, you conduct yourself the same as well. That's why Dany has an issue with Sansa and not the North. Or, because of Sansa's ties to the community as well as Sansa sitting at the table, it's important for Sansa to not be openly feuding with Dany. Ironically, despite many accusing Dany of not trying non violent approaches, she does the most sensible thing and TALKS to Sansa's brother and even this is an issue because supposedly, "She's trying to convince her lover to get his sister to love her."

Everything gets distorted to prove Sansa right and everyone else in the wrong. Everything.

Confucius was also fighting a HUMAN army. I stand by my statement that it DOES NOT matter if they don't have enough food because the NK is coming in a day or so. If they are all killed off by the NK come sundown, there is no one alive to eat the food. Now, there is food rotting, but at least is there food, right? TBH, I think that Ramsey/Dany (who has tits and dragons) comparison is bogus even for the North. The North has shown that not only do they not remember, it's their way or no way even if that means death. Oh, sure, they've warmed up to Sansa NOW, but remember when they also turned their back after Ramsey terrorized them? Regardless of if we say Jon is stupid, which I don't believe, Jon fought the battle for them while MANY house sat out. They know that Jon is willing to die for what is right and what he believes is right, yet they are two seconds from turning on Jon because he bent the knee to get the ally that he told them that they needed--again, after how many houses sat out during that first battle? I'm SO over the North and their pride.

For a group of people sooooo afraid, they sure d on't act like it.

Dany isn't brushing off people needing to have faith in a leader, but what can she do besides not have her dragons or react to rudeness and be overly emotional about a treasonous house to make the last remaining member feel better? What can she do in two days? The North is never going to trust her in order for them to have faith in her, so what exactly are you arguing? Even her initial niceness was said to be fake. This is a no win situation for Dany due to her grandfather and because she had dragons, something they need, but we'll skip over that last part.

You know what is also important in battles: the will to live and the idea that there is something to fight for. IF they still need to believe in Dany in order to fight the NK once he arrives, they then deserve to get killed off if they don't fight. How is their survival not important? Or fighting for their loved ones? Or fighting so that their kids have a better, safer world not important? This isn't FOR Dany, this is FOR mankind. If they don't get that when the NK comes, if they lose, that's on them not Dany. It's hilarious to harp on how important leader morale is when you also talk about them being mistrustful and suspicious of her. There is no way for Dany to rectify this before the battle.

Honestly, explain what Dany could've done in two days to get their North's trust and to raise morale for the North to fight for her. Because, based off of your post, she had options to the point of where she could turn the tide in her favor for them to become supporters of her in two days.

Such a good post, I'm standing up and cheering! Well, I would be if I wasn't typing! The morale thing blows me away. Who needs morale against an army of the dead? It's clear what you're fighting for. This isn't one house against another for a tract of land!

At this point, I don't care if the North gets decimated, except I don't want Jon to feel responsible (which would be unfair, since he was the one consistent Cassandra among them all.)

I also think them running scared of the dragons was funny. Arya had the best expression, one of awe. Tyrion had that reaction, too. But the "smallfolk" — who moments before were giving the Essosians the stink eye of prejudice — run scared through the bushes. Surely Sansa or someone told them dragons were headed their way? Maybe they expected smaller ones....

[FemmyV]

Oh, and by the way: did anyone else here get a little Princess Bride vibe out of Gendry's "As you wish, milady" ? Or was it just me being fanciful?

[TheGourmez]

14 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Oh, and by the way: did anyone else here get a little Princess Bride vibe out of Gendry's "As you wish, milady" ? Or was it just me being fanciful?

Oh, I totally think that was intentional. I didn't believe they'd go the romantic route for them until Gendry said it.

[screamin]

On 4/19/2019 at 8:19 PM, YaddaYadda said:

TBH, I think that Ramsey/Dany (who has tits and dragons) comparison is bogus even for the North.

On 4/19/2019 at 8:19 PM, YaddaYadda said:

Is this for real? Because wow!

I certainly did not say that Dany was like Ramsey - or even that the North had concluded that she was. I simply said that after the series of negligent or downright murderous rulers that the North has had over the past few years that killed off so many of them and traumatized the remainder, they will be more than usually worried that their new, unknown ruler might like their worst recent ruler instead of their better one. I said that for all they know, Danaerys might be like Ramsey, except more powerful. They need to see more of her compassion that Jon saw but is not adequately relaying to the North.

On 4/19/2019 at 8:06 PM, Nanrad said:

Confucius was also fighting a HUMAN army. I stand by my statement that it DOES NOT matter if they don't have enough food because the NK is coming in a day or so. If they are all killed off by the NK come sundown, there is no one alive to eat the food.

Confucius was also referring to leaders and their nations dealing with nonhuman enemies - famine, plague, economic depression.

And I state again that a lack of morale DOES make a great deal of difference in whether they ARE killed off by the NK come sundown. Armies try to keep up morale of the troops for a reason. If morale is low, the soldiers are more likely to cut and run when pressure rises. It doesn't matter whether they're facing zombies or men with machine guns - both will happily massacre them, given the chance. And it doesn't matter whether they have anywhere real to flee to. Panic doesn't make those kind of calculations.

I mean, if you think morale doesn't matter - do you think that if Ramsey had been the one leading the North in a fight against the NK, they would have fought as well for him as they would for Jon?

[stillshimpy]

I don't think there's any way I can convincingly fake having read the threads prior to posting, so in the name of House Stark, let me blurt out things not in the best interest of my survival.  Works in all directions, both for me, and then also as a commentary on this episode.  

I think I know why Varys and Littlefinger were the masterminds of the Kingdoms, they knew the value of the occasional private aside.  That was a lot of open declaration of known issues.  It wasn't the Exposition Fairy as much as it was the Laxative of Plot Obstacles. 

Sam needs to be up to speed in a flash? One and done, not deftly or with respect to the investment of the audience in these issues, there we go, the most contrived conversation even by the standards of the show, where they were busily knitting up plot threads to making something out of what they had, barest of nods to the source material. 

Euron, Ewan McGregor after some manic bender, cooing at Cersei's wig, while simultaneously leering at absolutely anything in his sightline was definitely kind of a low point, for me. 

Between the Bran ex Machina practically ringing a bell like he was reffing a boxing match but the participants were plot-points.   He would blurt out the next one, then call time when it had taken enough of a blunt-force beating.  

I'm primarily unspoiled but I do know some things, and I just don't get the pace of this development.  Surely, surely there was room to let some of this shit breathe?  

[slf]

On 4/19/2019 at 8:50 AM, screamin said:

Why is Dany ONLY focusing on Sansa? Does she think Sansa, as the highest ranking lord in the council, is the ringleader of the opposition against her, and that if she makes her behave courteously everyone else will follow her lead meekly? That's an understandable mistake on Dany's part, but the North doesn't work that way. The spectacle of Sansa obsequiously toadying to Dany would not make Lyanna and lords like her fall in line like ducklings. Dany would know that if she spent more time asking Jon about her new kingdom instead of telling him what she wants. Is she focusing on Sansa because her relationship with Jon makes her feel she's the most important person to bend to her will? That's pushing her political power into her romantic relationship with Jon, a less understandable mistake.  Either way, she's making prominent public mistakes when she's got a critically ill kingdom in front of her.

Kudos to your whole post but especially this part.

Dany cared about two things in Winterfell: her ego and Jon. She did not especially care about the wellbeing of the North. She tried with Sansa because she wanted her boyfriend's family to like her. She had no idea how to respond to Sansa's lack of enthusiasm and her ego was offended by it.

I've been rewatching a bunch of episodes and something I've noticed about Dany is that she generally does much better with people who are enslaved, or who spent most of their lives enslaved. Once she has to deal with free people it goes to shit. Almost all, or all, of her most contentious relationships are with free people. People who don't "owe" her their lives, people who have loyalty to their house, country, or religion which does not allow them to devote all of their loyalty to her and commit themselves solely to her goal of claiming the Iron Throne. She's just terrible at navigating those relationships.

Quote

Was there a scene of Jorah meeting his niece?

Though it's already been pointed out that Lyanna is not his niece, I just want to add that Jorah had at least one: Margaery Tyrell. Jorah's wife was the youngest sister of Alerie Hightower- wife of Mace Tyrell and mother of Margaery and Loras. As far as I know, Jorah and Margaery have never met.

Edited June 10, 2019 by slf

[John Potts]

Ooo! New credits! OK, technically they're always new, but major revamp.
Liked the callback to Arya's intro (as did Arya herself!)

Jon - everything you said about bending the knee to save the North was right, but the right time to say it was before you left!

Hey, the T & A are back! Seems like they took a season off (Hey, I can be shallow).

Loved all the reunions - Jon/Arya, Arya/Hound/Gendry even Jon/Bran. And for the awkward, Bran/Jamie

Considering they've kept the iconography of Euron as the single red eye, I can't help wondering why they didn't give him an eye patch? I know it's a pain having to wear one for any length of time, but Beric manages it.

Since Cersei is drinking again, I assume she's lost the baby?

Theon - you kinda had that headbutt coming, though at least you got Yara out. And "What's dead may never die" is kinda ironic, really when fighting an undead horde.

Some lovely aerial shots of Winterfell, but Bran was right that they don't have to mess around so is this really the time for a joy ride? Danny could prove her use by using her dragons to scout how close the undead are. And on the subject of timewasting: Jon/Danny - not in front of the dragons!

Sansa should learn from her mother - I don't think Cat liked Cersei any more than you like Danny, but she managed to be civil while she was in Winterfell. Hell, Sam manages to swallow "I killed your father. Oh, and your brother

I knew the Ned Umber would come back to (un)life, but it still made me jump (Reminiscent of a scene that always gets me in Salem's Lot).
How did Team Tormund get to the Last Hearth if the Army of the Dead were between them & Winterfell? Glad they survived though.

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 3:03 AM, anamika said:

If Sansa has a problem with dragons or Jon's decisions then she should put forward her ideas on how to deal with the dead. Constantly criticizing everything Jon does while offering no plans in return shows that she is only interested in creating conflict.

Agreed. Danny should point out that without her forces, everyone in Winterfell would probably die: after they fight (assuming they win) there will probably be a lot fewer left to worry about feeding and once Winterfell is safe, Danny intends to take her armies South. Sansa might reasonably bring up the possibility that it won't be a battle but a prolonged siege (indeed, I suggested exactly that might be what happens) - but while Sansa is right that Cersei is a real threat, the Night King is almost at the gates.

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 3:32 AM, Bill1978 said:

Should I be shocked that Bronn seems happy to kill Jaime?

Considering he admitted that all he'd ask if ordered to kill a child would be, "How much?" I would argue, Not really? And he would be able to get close to both of them.

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 4:09 AM, AshleyN said:

Davos being the only person to even suggest the obvious solution to the Jon/Dany conundrum is further proof that he's the smartest character on the show, regardless of how much the writers try to tell me otherwise.

Agreed.

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 5:38 PM, Uncle JUICE said:

I feel like it's a competition between Bran constantly telling everyone he's the Three Eyed Raven (does anyone know what that means? Like why isn't Sansa saying "Right, but what's that exactly?" or do you think they're all just "ugh, if I ask it'll only make less sense and I don't want to be in this convo anyway")

That's why I loved it when Sam went, "I don't know what that means!"

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 6:35 PM, FemmyV said:

What I don't get is why Bran wanted/needed Sam to tell Jon the truth about his parentage, while he was still in that state of shock. And I really don't see how Bran or anyone else would think this would suddenly change Jon's whole attitude about taking the crown for himself.

It make me wonder if Bran is really Bloodraven - or the Avatar of the Children of the Forest who want men to lose?