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Game Over: How YOU Would Have Done Season 8

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I agree with a lot of what others have said, but would add:

Not be so fucking in love with Jaime and Tyrion scenes!

Sansa and Arya spoke to each other once.  Arya and Jon spoke to each other only twice alone.  There was no scene with just the Starks until almost the last scene.  (ETA: Correction: there was the scene in Episode 4, but that was solely about Dany and had no payoff as we never saw Sansa and Arya's reactions to learning Jon's parentage.)

Jon hadn't seen Arya in years and had been separated from Sansa for a long time.  It would have been great to have at least one long, drawn-out scene between them talking about where they've been, what they fear, etc.  But never mind!  Let's just have multiple bonding scenes between Jaime and Tyrion, two characters who saw each other just last season.  

Fuck the writers and their Lannister love.

Edited by Brn2bwild
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Now that I am seeing these You Tube videos pointing out all the problems it is really really bad. I am now wondering what happened. Watching a couple of season 7 episodes the quality is SOO much better.  Even though season 7 was a drop. It is like they just gave the scripts to an entirely new group of people who hadn't watched the show at all. 

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Plotwise, I'd have made the Night King and his army an actual threat to the whole of Westeros.

In the Battle of No Set Lighting, Jon and Jaime lead an attack on the Night King himself, and almost reach him, but fail because they just don't have enough soldiers. Jaime is killed by the Night King, along with Jorah, Theon and whoever else died.

Rhaegal fights Viserion, and they tear each other to shreds, falling out of the sky to land in a broken heap. Dany makes the awful decision to burn them both, even with Rhaegal still alive, because she knows the battle is lost and can't allow the Night King to have two dragons.

They retreat to White Harbour, and then to Dragonstone, with the remnants of their army and Drogon.

While there, people actually have conversations about Jon's parentage, and the opposing factions jockey for position, but ultimately understand that it doesn't matter much, when it looks like there will be no throne to win.

Meanwhile, the Night King advances south, sweeping all before him until his army stands at the walls of Kings Landing, and Cersei has to come face to face with the consequences of her arrogance. 

Jon and Daenerys argue over whether they should go to Cersei's aid. Dany says Cersei deserves her fate, and if they go they all die, Jon argues that this will be the last chance they have to defeat the Night King. Let that be the start of the divide between them, and let Dany's 'madness' manifest less like a sledgehammer to the skull. She's the woman who pledged to rule Westeros justly, but seems happy to let the dead take all of it, while she sits on Dragonstone.

She grows more angry and lashes out at Jon, accusing him of getting her dragons killed, accusing Sansa of plotting against her, all that stuff.  Jon is a peacemaker, and tries to remind her of the good she's done, tries to reassure the others that Dany will do the right thing.

I'd actually have Missandei start to worry about Dany's mental health, and start to be won over by Tyrion and Varys. This isn't the woman she's served for all these years. The breaker of chains would never sit idle while innocent people were killed.

In the end, Dany does relent, declaring that she will rule Westeros, even if it's a kingdom of ashes, or she'll die trying. Not exactly the heroic rallying cry everyone was hoping for.

Tyrion and Varys send out ravens to the Vale and to Dorne declaring that this is the last chance for mankind to survive. Asking for all men capable of fighting to go to Kings Landing. This is where Gendry being made lord of the Stormlands, and Bronn being named lord of Highgarden could actually be relevant.

So the stage is set for the final confrontation, before Kings Landing. Dany's army arrives at the same time as those other forces, as the Night King is making his assault on the walls of Kings Landing.

Big battle. Jon and Brienne and Arya manage to get to the Night King as he reaches the Red Keep. Cersei is holed up inside it with Qyburn and a cache of Wildfire. They fight, the Night King is kicking their arses and both Brienne and Arya are waylaid by zombies. Jon gets in a lucky hit, and wounds the Night King, but it's to no avail. The Night King defeats him, and they have a moment where Jon is bleeding out as the Night King studies him. Daenerys sees this from Drogon, and has a moment with Jon where their eyes meet and he silently implores her to do what she must.

We get a last "Dracarys" and she has Drogon unleash flames on Jon and the Night King. In her rage, she keeps burning the Red Keep, until the flames reach Cersei's cache of Wildfire, and the whole building explodes. The Night King is defeated but the city is destroyed. Most of the people are dead, Dany has burned the fuck out of  a lot of it, and the last vestiges of humanity she had seem to have died with Jon.

This is when they realise she has to die. But the emotional connection is Missandei. She goes to talk to Dany in front of the throne, and tries to reason with her. Dany's not having it, and threatens to have Missandei burned to death. Missandei realises all is lost, but she's just been distracting Dany, so the super ninja assassin of Westeros can do what eight seasons have set her up to do, and kill a queen.

Sansa still gets the North, Arya still buggers off to discover Westestros, Grey Worm and Missandei go to Naath (where Grey Worm presumably dies of Butterfly Fever). Does Bran get the throne? Sure. Why not. There's nothing left to rule anyway.

Edited by Danny Franks
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On 5/25/2019 at 7:41 AM, Danny Franks said:

Plotwise, I'd have made the Night King and his army an actual threat to the whole of Westeros.

In the Battle of No Set Lighting, Jon and Jaime lead an attack on the Night King himself, and almost reach him, but fail because they just don't have enough soldiers. Jaime is killed by the Night King, along with Jorah, Theon and whoever else died.

Rhaegal fights Viserion, and they tear each other to shreds, falling out of the sky to land in a broken heap. Dany makes the awful decision to burn them both, even with Rhaegal still alive, because she knows the battle is lost and can't allow the Night King to have two dragons.

They retreat to White Harbour, and then to Dragonstone, with the remnants of their army and Drogon.

While there, people actually have conversations about Jon's parentage, and the opposing factions jockey for position, but ultimately understand that it doesn't matter much, when it looks like there will be no throne to win.

Meanwhile, the Night King advances south, sweeping all before him until his army stands at the walls of Kings Landing, and Cersei has to come face to face with the consequences of her arrogance. 

Jon and Daenerys argue over whether they should go to Cersei's aid. Dany says Cersei deserves her fate, and if they go they all die, Jon argues that this will be the last chance they have to defeat the Night King. Let that be the start of the divide between them, and let Dany's 'madness' manifest less like a sledgehammer to the skull. She's the woman who pledged to rule Westeros justly, but seems happy to let the dead take all of it, while she sits on Dragonstone.

She grows more angry and lashes out at Jon, accusing him of getting her dragons killed, accusing Sansa of plotting against her, all that stuff.  Jon is a peacemaker, and tries to remind her of the good she's done, tries to reassure the others that Dany will do the right thing.

I'd actually have Missandei start to worry about Dany's mental health, and start to be won over by Tyrion and Varys. This isn't the woman she's served for all these years. The breaker of chains would never sit idle while innocent people were killed.

In the end, Dany does relent, declaring that she will rule Westeros, even if it's a kingdom of ashes, or she'll die trying. Not exactly the heroic rallying cry everyone was hoping for.

Tyrion and Varys send out ravens to the Vale and to Dorne declaring that this is the last chance for mankind to survive. Asking for all men capable of fighting to go to Kings Landing. This is where Gendry being made lord of the Stormlands, and Bronn being named lord of Highgarden could actually be relevant.

So the stage is set for the final confrontation, before Kings Landing. Dany's army arrives at the same time as those other forces, as the Night King is making his assault on the walls of Kings Landing.

Big battle. Jon and Brienne and Arya manage to get to the Night King as he reaches the Red Keep. Cersei is holed up inside it with Qyburn and a cache of Wildfire. They fight, the Night King is kicking their arses and both Brienne and Arya are waylaid by zombies. Jon gets in a lucky hit, and wounds the Night King, but it's to no avail. The Night King defeats him, and they have a moment where Jon is bleeding out as the Night King studies him. Daenerys sees this from Drogon, and has a moment with Jon where their eyes meet and he silently implores her to do what she must.

We get a last "Dracarys" and she has Drogon unleash flames on Jon and the Night King. In her rage, she keeps burning the Red Keep, until the flames reach Cersei's cache of Wildfire, and the whole building explodes. The Night King is defeated but the city is destroyed. Most of the people are dead, Dany has burned the fuck out of  a lot of it, and the last vestiges of humanity she had seem to have died with Jon.

This is when they realise she has to die. But the emotional connection is Missandei. She goes to talk to Dany in front of the throne, and tries to reason with her. Dany's not having it, and threatens to have Missandei burned to death. Missandei realises all is lost, but she's just been distracting Dany, so the super ninja assassin of Westeros can do what eight seasons have set her up to do, and kill a queen.

Sansa still gets the North, Arya still buggers off to discover Westestros, Grey Worm and Missandei go to Naath (where Grey Worm presumably dies of Butterfly Fever). Does Bran get the throne? Sure. Why not. There's nothing left to rule anyway.

 I 100% ship this ending. Rather than Bran, I would've loved to see Gendry get the Throne. I think that would've been a cool rags-to-riches story, and given that Gendry grew up in Flea Bottom, he'd be sympathetic to the needs of the poor. He would've been so much easier to root for than zombie Bran.

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I would have instructed Maisie Williams to not be so robotic with her acting.

God, it was bad.

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3 hours ago, Fiver said:

I would have instructed Maisie Williams to not be so robotic with her acting.

God, it was bad.

I was sick to death of her dead eyed monotone kinda duck lipped presentation. When Sandor reached her as she let her face relax to the 'pre faceless god' look I really hoped that would be the end of it. But no, back o the same affect as she talked shit at the council meeting. guh

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1 hour ago, Heckler52317 said:

I was sick to death of her dead eyed monotone kinda duck lipped presentation. When Sandor reached her as she let her face relax to the 'pre faceless god' look I really hoped that would be the end of it. But no, back o the same affect as she talked shit at the council meeting. guh

Yup.  Actually, this monotone, dead-eyed affect started at the very beginning of season seven, and I hated it.  I realize Arya was trained by Jaqen H'ghar and learned to put on a good poker face, for lack of a better expression, but man, did it get old.  I especially hated the scene where she doesn't show any fear or apprehension over fighting the Army of the Dead and nonchalantly throws a dagger at a target like it's no big thing while talking to Gendry.  Give me a damn break.  I could never get emotionally invested in Arya after a certain point, because she didn't act like any person I know.  There was too much of a disconnect, there.

Edited by Fiver
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I'd start my rewrite in Season 7 (I'm not plotting out individual episodes, so I don't know how many it would run to):

King Jon tells his people that the Night King is coming, so they need something to fight him. Bran turns up and agrees that there are two things that could harm them - Dragonglass and Dragons... and that Danny has both. Jon agrees to go South to seek the aid of the Dragon Queen. Kings Landing is increasingly unruly under Cersei's tyrannical rule, as the Tyrells are denying them food. Cersei's reign becomes ever more tyrannical and she begins stashing Wildfire around KL ("If I can't have it, nobody can!"). Arya and Bran arrive at Winterfell.

Jon arrives in Dragonstone. Danny refuses to aid him unless he bends the knee - Jon refuses. Tyrion suggests a marriage pact (because... duh!) - Jon is reluctant, but considers it (sending ravens back to Winterfell, because... also duh!) while Danny is reluctant to abandon her war with Cersei. Ultimately, Danny agrees to fight for the North on condition Jon agrees to marry... after Cersei is dealt with. She does agree to let Jon mine (and send North) dragonglass.

Cersei agrees to negotiations, sending Bronn and Jamie to Dragonstone. She suggests a truce, while Danny deals with the Army of the Dead (she knows about them because of Qyburn's "little birds"). Jamie believes this is an honest offer (it isn't) and Tyrion believes his brother. Danny agrees IF Cersei sends troops to aid them - she agrees, sending Jamie as their commander (Cersei writes off these troops as worth sacrificing to get rid of Danny, even if only temporarily while she can bring in the Golden Company). Jon and Danny marry.

Jon, Danny, Jamie and their armies arrive at Winterfell, sailing in Yara's fleet. Sansa welcomes the troops but privately expresses concerns over how they can be fed and which of them can be trusted. The Lannister forces are a source of continual tension, but Bran speaks up for them. The Night King arrives at the Wall and either the mark on Bran or the Horn of Winter allow him to breech it. The Army of the Dead pour South, building their army as they go.

Jamie receives word that Cersei is planning to assault Dragonstone with her troops and Euron's ships. He's torn over Cersei's betrayal and agonises over whether his duty is to Cersei or the living, but ultimately chooses family over humanity. Varys also gets word but decides he the living need all the troops they can get and also keeps quiet.

Euron's forces assault and overrun the garrison left to defend Dragonstone. When Danny hears, she's outraged and wants to burn Jamie and the Lannister forces. Varys speaks up to say that he knew Cersei was planning to betray them, but that Jamie was innocent and they need his men. Danny burns Varys for his treachery, arrests Jamie and flies South with her three dragons to "deal with" Cersei. Refugees pour into Winterfell, which is stuffed to bursting as the Dead arrive.

As the Night King assaults Winterfell, Danny and her dragons begin melting the Red Keep. Unfortunately, the scorpions take down one of her dragons which crashes to the ground in a flaming heap... which ignites the wildfire Cersei had stashed about the city. Kings Landing is devastated by fire, killing thousands - Cersei is presumed dead. Meanwhile, in the North, the Dead assault Winterfell, but Bran advises that he won't be able to breech the Walls so long as he's there (the crypts don't wake up either). They're not stupid enough to try to engage them outside the walls, but although the Dead can't get in, Winterfell is placed under siege by part of the Dead army while the Night King proceeds South with the rest.

Inside Winterfell, the situation is desperate as starvation spreads. Despite fighting valiantly, there is open talk of whether the Lannister soldiers (and Jamie in particular) should be expelled from the city (Sansa speaks in favour, Jon is against). Before a decision can be made, Jamie leads the Lannister men in an apparently suicidal attack to break the siege. Horrified, Brienne goes out to protect Jamie while Bran whispers something to Arya. Jamie's men fight hard but are no match for the dead - Brienne dies saving Jamie but just when it looks like all the Lannister troops will die, one of the Walkers suddenly stabs the Other leading the army; it's Arya, wearing a dead face (with Bran shielding her identity as well). The army collapses as he dies and the siege is lifted, but Winterfell is in a desperate situation as starvation reigns, with the land still locked in winter. Ironically, Jamie is seen as the hero who risked his life to save Winterfell while Danny is the villain who abandoned them in their hour of need.

Danny engages the Army of the Dead with dragonfire. This stops their advance (let's say at The Trident, given the visions from the House of the Undying) but at a terrible cost as the land is devastated by both Fire and Ice. Danny also discovers she's pregnant and is about to send word to Jon (they are married) when she learns of his parentage (this can be from the Citadel, who have the record of Rhaegar's marriage or the nurse from the Tower of Joy shows up - make this Wylla if you want). Danny realises that Jon's claim is superior to hers and decides to keep quite about it. But Sam also has this information and sends it to Jon. Euron returns to the Iron Isles as he thinks the dead can't cross the sea.

As Winterfell starves, Jon decides they have to end the war and reaches out to the other Houses (the Tyrells and Dornish haven't been wiped out in this scenario). They agree to support his claim IF he kills the Night King. Jon, with no other choice, leads what's left of the troops in  Winterfell South with Arya, Bran and Jamie. The Ironborn raid the North, because it's denuded of troops and they're dicks. Yara, still in Winterfell, leads the (small) Winterfell garrison who attack Euron's men. Yara kills Euron, and his men acknowledge her as leader. She claims the Seastone Chair.
 

We see the Northern Army, looking extremely gaunt and haggard, eating their own dead. Jon is having dreams where Bran is instructing him what's happening and what to do: lots of heroics as they succeed in stopping the dead army from reaching Highgarden. The Reach feeds what's left of Jon's army and declares it will support him as King (word has got out of his parentage) once the war is over. Unexpectedly, a dead army heading for Casterley Rock is incinerated by Wildfire. We see its Walker Commander incinerated and his army collapses. We see Cersei has survived (though her face is disfigured thanks to scars and/or burns, depending on budget!) along with Qyburn, who's been generating the Wildfire. Bran (still in Winterfell) declares that the Night King is the only surviving Other - if they can kill him, the Dead will be defeated.

The Dead are still ravaging the land, but there is no sign of the Night King. Danny goes into labour and receives a series of visions: a burning city, her own birth, Jon's birth in the Tower of Joy, the Mad King's death and the Night King in front of a weirwood tree. Jerking awake, we see Bran, who states he knows where the Night King is: the Godswood on the Isle of Faces. The Starks, the Dothraki, the Lannisters, the Unsullied and the Tyrells all converge on the Godswood. But it's a trap - the Night King's army awaken around them and the undead Viserion takes to the air. It seems hopeless until Danny arrives riding Drogon. The dragons clash, tearing into each other - until they both plunge from the sky. Jon charges across the field to save Danny (somebody - Lyanna Mormont? Tormond?) dies heroically saving Jon from a blade he didn't even see. But before Jon can reach Danny, the Night King steps between them. Jon and him fight: Jon wins, stabbing the Night King - but nothing happens. The Night King smiles (or as close to it as he can manage) and then falls to the ground in front of the same Weirwood where he was created. We see Arya standing behind him with a dragonglass dagger as the Army of the Dead collapse. There is widespread rejoicing among the survivors, except for Danny who is carried from the field by her Unsullied. As the episode ends, we see a lone flower poking through the snow.

This episode would be essentially the same as Episode 8.04. Everyone is celebrating their victory - the only difference is that Danny isn't there. It becomes clear that Jon has widespread support to claim the throne. Danny's scorched earth policy for defeating the Army of the Dead, the destruction of Kings Landing (not actually her fault), her abandonment of Winterfell and the fact she just isn't present at the feasting mean she is seen as unworthy to rule when an alternative candidate is available - Jon. The only notable dissenting voice is Jon himself, who declares he pledged hismelf to Danny. Hook ups happen (including Arya/Gendry and Jamie/Brienne). Regrettably, the remaining Dothraki celebate as they traditionally do too (with no Khaleesi to restrain them) - rampaging across the countryside robbing and raping. This just fuels the King Jon talk. Eventually, people head home to rebuild. The episode ends with a letter (signed "The Lord of Casterley Rock") arriving at the various keeps (OK, Winterfell and Dragonstone - no need to break the budget here) inviting all the Lords to discuss who should be King going forward.

Finale: Danny is recovering on Dragonstone and is outraged at the suggestion that she should defer to any Council - is she not the rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, Ruler of the Andals and the First Men.....? Tyrion points out that not attending would make it more likely they'll choose Jon and he'll have the support of all those attending in any future conflict between the two of them. Danny wonders if it might be a trap but Tyrion points out that Jamie fought valiantly for their side and if he wanted to betray them he had plenty of opportunities to do so. Danny reluctantly agrees. We see people arriving at Casterley Rock, among them the Edmure, the Sand Snakes and the Hound. Inside, we see a drunken Cersei smiling as she watches the arrivals. Jamie asks why she's so happy - she replies that all her enemies are walking blindly into her trap. She takes him down to the cellars to reveal a cellar full of wildfire. "And when they're all here..." she laughs. Jamie is horrified she would consider mass murder, under a flag of truce and using his name. She laughs again. "What does your name matter to me?" Jamie is enraged and throttles her. Cersei is unable to resist him, but knocks over a candle amid the wildfire, which ignites - Jamie and Cersei are killed instantly as the Castle explodes around them, taking out everyone inside and several of the arriving guests. Danny's party sees the explosion from her ship and spots Jon arriving. Convinced Jon is behind the blackening of her name and that he's now complicit in an assassination attempt, she orders her men to attack Jon's. Jon's men are overwhelmed, but Jon himself fights like a man possessed cutting down Danny's men left and right. Horrified, Danny calls to Jon to stop and attempts to grab him, but he turns and stabs her (it's left ambiguous whether he did so deliberately or simply reacted without thinking). Danerys dies in his arms, saying "Protect our son..." Jon drops his sword as Greyworm (last of Danny's men) holds his sword to Jon's neck. "Do it," is all Jon can say. Greyworm refuses, as his Queen gave Jon an order.

Despite the carnage, the Council still meets. With no other viable candidates, they are determined to appoint Jon. Jon (again) refuses and suggests his son (Jaherys?) should rule, but that he will need a Regency Council. Tyrion suggests this be more than just a Small Council but that it should include a broader range of Lords (not democracy, but something like a House of Lords or Senate) to ensure that everyone has a voice. Jon leaves and when asks where he's going he tells them he's returning to the Nights Watch. When he's asked if there is any point to the NW with the death of the Night King, Bran points out that he died before and still came back.

We then flash forward to an adult Jaherys, who retains the Council before elaborating on his taxation policy...

(Wow, I meant that to be a couple of paragraphs and it really got away from me!)

ETA: Because there does have to be some Fanservice moments, I'd have Cleganbowl happen - I was going to put it at the end but a better place might be as Danny is attacking Kings Landing - the Hound enters the castle with Arya, who intends to kill Cersei. As they reach the Throne Room, Cersei gives the order for the Mountain to stop them as she flees. The two men fight as Arya pursues Cersei, but that's when Danny attacks and the castle collapses around her. We see Arya just make it out before she's buried (we don't see what happens to Cersei).

Edited by John Potts
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I’ve given what I aspired to be my objective view. I gave my sarcastic view. And now I’ll give my personal view. 

I’m okay with Daenerys going bad. I didn’t think that leap was *all* that much. I saw the foreshadowing, and I fully expected King’s Landing to be completely destroyed. I never anticipated her going “mad,” so much as I expected her to be justified in what she was doing. 

I wish she had had that moment like Theon did in Season 2. You know where Dany clapped back at Sansa in episode 1 with “whatever they want,” about what dragons eat? Well, the Season 2 writers of this show would have made Dany eat those words. They would have had her beloved remaining two dragons burn a couple toddlers to a crisp, and have Sansa say, without shade and in sadness, “I thought I feared the worst, but I was wrong.” And have Dany stand there, like Theon after he was called out for his bravado, and have Dany make that choice to be hoighty about it instead of guilty or compassionate.  I thought she was already there. I knew she was already here. So that’s why I saw virtually no disconnect with her burning subjects to the ground. 

So there’s that. And I would have shown Jon actually being enamored with Dany so that his stabbing her didn’t seem obvious. Instead, Jon always seemed so indifferent, whether he was having sex with her or stabbing her. 

And I would have switched which Lannister brother lived.  Make Jaime live with his guilt. Not Tyrion. 

Finally, I have to admit, I came to this show late. After the Sixth Season. And if the Sixth Season hadn’t been such a good rebound season, I would have cursed the friend who convinced me to finally give GoT a chance.  And I *still* didn’t get invested into this show until the end of season 2, and Jaime’s “there’s no man like me, only me” speech. To me, and me (nearly) alone, this was always the Jaime Lannister Show. And it’s been a lonely, disappointing journey these last 3 years. So, if I could only change 3 minutes of footage these last two seasons, what would it have been?  I full on love scene with Jaime and Brienne. Give me 60 to 90 seconds of a love scene, along with just a little conversation in the morning or days following. Show me the scene where Jaime asks Brienne if she wants him to stay. Or their awkwardness the next morning. I would have watched and re-watched that scene over and over and over again. Instead all I got was a fairly decent foreplay scene and a hard cut to Jon Snow. Thanks, but no thanks. 

I’m a simple woman. Just that and I would have quietly slinked away in bliss. 

Edited by Francie
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***Minor tweak***

Back when Euron smashed Yara's fleet, I 'imagined' he had some magic item or spell where he could conjure a storm-one that he could see thru and navigate.

This season I would have had Dany arrive at Dragonstone in a storm. And her dragons are either forced to fly lower or as they sit on the battlements Euron's fleet emerges from the low clouds and gets the scorpion hits. 

They then wheel about and smash the Unsullied fleet.

As much as I can, I try to respect the story as told- I just need it to make some kind of sense...

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I'm not nearly talented enough to rewrite the season I really wanted to see, but there are little things that come to mind.

If Dany had to go crazy on the city and become the big bad, there needed to be both more general build up and a more dramatic instance of the smallfolk of KL going out of their way to piss her off/hurt her feelings.  Jimmy Macram posted this in his reaction video, so full credit there, but why not have a group of residents cheer after Cersei takes Missandei's head off?  Then Dany would have reason to "make it personal" (per D&D) towards the small folk.

She absolutely should have torched at least part of the Red Keep trying to get at Cersei.  Give us a couple of eye contact shots between them, some direct effort at each other during the main battle.  That she never really goes after Cersei is the most fucked up part of the whole finale to me.  I mean, I can stretch it to see her going ham on the rest of the city, but you didn't even try for the bitch that was trying for you?  Not even one time?  Petty af!

Jorah should have lived, and he should have also become dubious of her with Tyrion and Varys.  That would have been an isolation that I would have found more moving her towards the cray she ended up expressing.  Maybe he wouldn't ever outright betray her, but kind of shame her like Tyrion did afterwards, or …. something.  There were other deaths that could have gone down at WF besides him to keep that real.

I wouldn't have made any drama out of aunt-nephew coupling.  It was boring, where I think Jon getting to spend the time on the revelation of his Targ heritage would have been more worthwhile.  In fact I would have thought Jon's ultimate betrayal was a lot more stirring if he and Dany had stayed sexually/romantically involved, and he had needed to kill her while he was still in love with her, instead of just with a  sort of chivalric, courtier's love for their queen.  Jonathan at Gay of Thrones pretty much summarized that Dany torched the city because, "Jon wouldn't give her that nephew D" which is dumb and sexist but I also laughed my ass off at it, because it's not a totally unreasonable interpretation of the timing.  This would also have given Jon a fucking point in the episodes before he kills Dany, since they made him almost useless most of this season.  Have him be sincerely in love/lust, but also scared of her … more like Tyrion but with him being "successful" and not with him having already given up on that aspect with her.

 Make the War with the WW longer and in more smaller battles, and at least hint at wtf they truly are/want from humanity.  We know it's got to be more complicated than genocide because we saw they were bribed in the past, by Craster.  You don't have to be GRRM himself, but give us some clues, maybe through Bran or something.

Agree with others that Jon riding the dragon in battle as a heat of the moment thing would have been far more badass than the jaunt with Dany.

That's it for right now.  

Edited by TarotQueen · Reason: I don't have to justify myself to y'all.
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I've watched fan videos, lurked forums and listened to podcasts all focused on what people would've done differently, and every single rewrite is better than the material we got for S8. I'm also noting these examples used the same six-episode parameter, along with events in S7 remaining unchanged.

How did Benioff and Weiss drop the ball this badly? 

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The Battle against the White Walkers would have actually meant something and not have been over in a single night.  I definitely would have eliminated the whole "Kill the Night King and the army of the dead instantly collapses" plot point.  That's making it too easy for the main characters.  I would have had Jon, Dany and company win the Battle of Winterfell, only to discover that the Night King had taken the bulk of his forces, bypassed Winterfell and went straight to King's Landing.  Basically have the heroes chasing them down South. 

We also see that it's winter in ALL of Westeros and not just Winterfell.

Jon actually does something heroic in the battle, his heritage actually means something and he actually...gasp...SPEAKERS UP FOR HIMSELF.  D&D long ago made Jon a man who doesn't verbally stand up for himself.  Maybe tell Dany what his problems are.

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These guys have a bunch of interesting ideas about things they could have done to make this finale less sucky, or at least, making more sense.

One interesting idea was Tyrion asking for a trial by combat because Grey Worm wants him dead, and Jon Snow and Grey Worm fighting it out.

Much more conversation (not just Tyrion blathering on and on) during that meeting to choose a King, and they have good ideas about how Bran could still be chosen, but in a sensible way.

So, I thought I'd put it here.

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Maybe have it so that half the show didnt turn out to be utterly pointless? Night King and his army, and history with the Children? He gets shanked by Arya after one day of fighting which most of Westeros will probably never hear about and hardly affected anyone, his army collapses instantly, what we never find out what his plan was, what the deal with the Children was, and all the mystery behind the wall, the thing that started the whole show, just kind of fizzles. Dany and her rising from nothing to amass her army and becoming a queen and coming to Westeros after all that build up? She goes crazy and evil out of nowhere, all of her supporting cast is either dead or evil, and other than using her dragons to burn some ice zombies and killing Kings Landing, she basically amounted to nothing in the narrative, and her whole journey meant nothing. L+R=J? Basically existed to create angst between Jon and Dany to tip her closer to evil. Jaimies entire plot? He could have just died in season one I guess, he apparently learned nothing. The Dragons? Two dead, one disappeared to parts unknown. So much of what was built up came to nothing, so many major plots just ended up fizzling out, and long time characters just died or fucked off. I know that this show is all about subverting tropes and not giving us what we want, but this wasnt trope subverting, it was just stupid and lame, and no way to end such an epic narrative. 

Of course, a lot of this probably could have been fixed if D&D didnt get bored with their own show and decide to end WAY too soon with only a few episodes to shove what was clearly several seasons worth of stories into a few episodes. Then it would have felt like a real story, and not a pre decided ending, and check marks that they have to hit to get there, whether or not it makes any sense. So much could have been solved if they had just taken an extra season or two, or even just a normal length season. It was so obvious that they stopped caring way before most of us did. 

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On 5/25/2019 at 12:43 AM, Brn2bwild said:

I agree with a lot of what others have said, but would add:

Not be so fucking in love with Jaime and Tyrion scenes!

Sansa and Arya spoke to each other once.  Arya and Jon spoke to each other only twice alone.  There was no scene with just the Starks until almost the last scene.  (ETA: Correction: there was the scene in Episode 4, but that was solely about Dany and had no payoff as we never saw Sansa and Arya's reactions to learning Jon's parentage.)

Jon hadn't seen Arya in years and had been separated from Sansa for a long time.  It would have been great to have at least one long, drawn-out scene between them talking about where they've been, what they fear, etc.  But never mind!  Let's just have multiple bonding scenes between Jaime and Tyrion, two characters who saw each other just last season.  

Fuck the writers and their Lannister love.

The show is nothing without the Lannisters. Lannister scenes have always been better than Stark scenes. Better acting, more interesting characters, more complicated relationship dynamics, etc. That's a no-brainer, really. It's not a coincidence that the few emotional highlights of S8--Jaime knighting Brienne, Jaime and Tyrion's goodbye, Jaime and Cersei's death scene, etc.--were Lannister scenes. It's not because the writers favoured the Lannisters, since the Starks also got their share of emotional moments: it's because the Lannisters, much richer and deeper characters than the Starks, make for better TV, and the Starks are rather flat by comparison.

Speaking of flat Stark characters, the biggest sin in S8 for me is the lack of groundwork for King Bran, and the writers had already dug themselves a sizeable hole in S7 on that score by transforming Bran into a creepy, emotionless zombie who robotically insists that he's not Bran Stark and he can't be any sort of lord. They could have made Bran a compelling, kingly character in S8, but for whatever reason they dug in their heels and stuck to the robotic version of the character. It is a mystifying writing choice since they knew that this was Bran's endgame. If I had to change something, I would change that. 

Edited by Eyes High

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22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The show is nothing without the Lannisters. Lannister scenes have always been better than Stark scenes. Better acting, more interesting characters, more complicated relationship dynamics, etc. That's a no-brainer, really. It's not a coincidence that the few emotional highlights of S8--Jaime knighting Brienne, Jaime and Tyrion's goodbye, Jaime and Cersei's death scene, etc.--were Lannister scenes. It's not because the writers favoured the Lannisters, since the Starks also got their share of emotional moments: it's because the Lannisters, much richer and deeper characters than the Starks, make for better TV, and the Starks are rather flat by comparison.

Speaking of flat Stark characters, the biggest sin in S8 for me is the lack of groundwork for King Bran, and the writers had already dug themselves a sizeable hole in S7 on that score by transforming Bran into a creepy, emotionless zombie who robotically insists that he's not Bran Stark and he can't be any sort of lord. They could have made Bran a compelling, kingly character in S8, but for whatever reason they dug in their heels and stuck to the robotic version of the character. It is a mystifying writing choice since they knew that this was Bran's endgame. If I had to change something, I would change that. 

What Stark scenes were there between Season One and Season Seven featuring Arya, Sansa, Jon, and Bran?  We did get Sansa and Jon in Season Six, and those were some of the highlights of that Season.  

Lena Heady and Peter Dinklage may be better actors than any of the Stark actors, but we could certainly have had some effective, moving scenes with Arya and Jon, or Arya and Sansa, or Arya, Sansa, and Jon.  (Bran?... eh.)  The only moving scenes they were allowed were their reunion scenes.

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They definitely could have done more with the Starks and laid more groundwork with King Bran.  King Bran is almost nonexistent and it's inexplicable that D&D kept him off the show for an entire season if they knew the endgame.

I will say though that the Lannisters actors are better than the Stark actors and they are more entertaining characters.  Seriously...who has the best sense of humor out of the Stark children?  The answer...no one because every member of that family acts like they have a stick up their ass.  Arya is the most fun character and her version of fun is brutal, violent revenge.

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53 minutes ago, benteen said:

They definitely could have done more with the Starks and laid more groundwork with King Bran.  King Bran is almost nonexistent and it's inexplicable that D&D kept him off the show for an entire season if they knew the endgame.

I will say though that the Lannisters actors are better than the Stark actors and they are more entertaining characters.  Seriously...who has the best sense of humor out of the Stark children?  The answer...no one because every member of that family acts like they have a stick up their ass.  Arya is the most fun character and her version of fun is brutal, violent revenge.

Yes, exactly. The Lannisters are the most entertaining, most compelling part of the show. Wanting less of them--especially in favour of the comparatively boring, humourless, charisma-free Starks--makes no sense to me. The Lannisters were one of the few things that worked about S8.

I really don't know what would have saved that Bran/Tyrion/council scene. It seemed utterly ridiculous to me that Tyrion as a prisoner could suddenly start dictating terms and everyone would be struck dumb and utterly convinced by what seemed to me to be pretty flimsy logic. There was no speech Tyrion could have made at that point that would have credibly sold Bran as king, and certainly not the speech he gave about Bran having the best story (which was debatable). Maybe Tyrion could have leaned harder into the idea that Bran wants nothing and is removed from human emotions, and that the kingdom has been torn apart in the past by rulers falling prey to human passions like ambition and desire, or he could have pointed out that a repository of human history is the person who can best ensure that they don't end up repeating past mistakes, but even then it would have been a stretch. By the time the story reached that point, though, the episode had about ten minutes' worth of episode to go from no ruler to Bran as the endgame king. 

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1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Yes, exactly. The Lannisters are the most entertaining, most compelling part of the show. Wanting less of them--especially in favour of the comparatively boring, humourless, charisma-free Starks--makes no sense to me. The Lannisters were one of the few things that worked about S8.

Sophie and Maisie have no charisma?  Have you seen them in interviews?

If they're boring and humorless, it's how the Stark actors have been written and told to act.  If the writers actually allowed the Starks to have a playful, semi-happy scene together, they probably could have sold it well.  

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2 hours ago, benteen said:

Seriously...who has the best sense of humor out of the Stark children?  The answer...no one because every member of that family acts like they have a stick up their ass.  Arya is the most fun character and her version of fun is brutal, violent revenge.

Wow, talk about savagely spot on. Now that you mention it, it's all I can see about them as a family...maybe Robb? I don't know, they were all REALLY fucking dour as people. I blame Ned. I can't imagine what your run of the mill Tuesday dinner was like in the Stark house, and I'm pretty good at imagining.

INT GREAT HALL, WINTERFELL. All five Stark children, Theon, Ned and Catelynn eating mutton and drinking mead. THe lights are dim candles, they're eating off of iron plates with extra heavy utensils. Chew chew chew. Cut cut cut. Chew chew sip. Silence continues to weigh on the group. 

THEON: (Sip) Sooooo....how was everyone's day?

ROBB: Had to cut down another group of Wildlings we found north of the Godswood. Third day in a row. Two of them were women, one I think was pregnant, but you know, that's what has to be done. (sip)

NED: Everything before the word but is bullshit.

ROBB: Even in that sentence?

NED: The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.

ARYA rolls her eyes.

CAT: AHYA!

SANSA: I don't think that sentence is the same as 'the sentence' in that context.

ALL of them freeze at this insolence. Ned looks at Sansa with that Ned look of how much he hates everything, how little joy is in the world, and resentment.

NED: The lone wolf dies, the pack survives

BRAN roll eyes. Sansa understands this threat and pipes down. A servant comes in with plates.

SERVANT: Milord, the bread is coming momentarily.

NED: You know the words of our house. WINTER is coming. 

ALL roll eyes except Ned. Cat sighs deeply.

JON (from a table for one Cat made him set up in the hallway out of sight): Are you guys talking in there?? Can I get the salt?

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55 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Sophie and Maisie have no charisma?  Have you seen them in interviews?

If they're boring and humorless, it's how the Stark actors have been written and told to act.  If the writers actually allowed the Starks to have a playful, semi-happy scene together, they probably could have sold it well.  

I never said Sophie and Maisie have no charisma.  But Sansa and Arya aren't exactly going to liven up any parties.  Bran and Jon are capable of completely killing a mood.

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5 minutes ago, benteen said:

I never said Sophie and Maisie have no charisma.  But Sansa and Arya aren't exactly going to lighten up any parties.  Bran and Jon are capable of completely killing a mood.

Bran is definitely that guy who shows up at a party and can't wait to tell you about some new craft beer you're not cool enough to know even though it's made with tobacco juice and milkweed, but it's made in the REAL way people used to make beer, I'm talking about Mesopotamia. Have you read Baudelaire? I mean his earlier work, before he got too big. He has this great sextant about Mesopotamian beer I've memorized. Now let's blog about neo-classical lit crit. 

Makes me want to push his wheelchair down the many non-disabled (yeah, I know that's not what we say now but honestly I can't remember what the right one is) friendly staircases in the Red Keep. "I'm the world's memory!" Pod just leaving his wheelchair in the courtyard to take a break for ten minutes. 

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2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Yes, exactly. The Lannisters are the most entertaining, most compelling part of the show. Wanting less of them--especially in favour of the comparatively boring, humourless, charisma-free Starks--makes no sense to me. The Lannisters were one of the few things that worked about S8.

Sansa and Arya had plenty of charisma. And they had chemistry with other actors. I mean I don't think they were there to be hilarious or anything, what with all the rapes and the training to kill people.

Anyway, how would I have redone the show? Well, given that D&D were beholden to GRRM's ending, I wouldn't have cut Bran from an entire season. I wouldn't have had Sansa married to Ramsey and raped in season 5. That's hands-down my worst storyline from the show, even worse than Dany's sudden turn to evil.

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1 hour ago, Brn2bwild said:

Sophie and Maisie have no charisma?  Have you seen them in interviews?

I was talking about the characters, not the actors, and yes, there's a difference. (Gwendoline Christie is charismatic, Brienne is not.) Still, we can all agree that the actors playing the Starks are much weaker than the Lannister actors. That's not much of a compliment given that the Lannister actors are more than 20 years older and had been acting for many years before GOT, but there you have it.

34 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Sansa and Arya had plenty of charisma.

Debatable

Quote

I mean I don't think they were there to be hilarious or anything, what with all the rapes and the training to kill people.

That's an incredibly weak argument. The Lannister siblings have all been through incredible trauma--walks of shame, amputations, you name it--and have remained far more entertaining than the Starks through it all, even in (I'd say especially in) their darkest moments. And there's far more to being entertaining than being humorous, although the Lannisters being much wittier than the Starks certainly helps. (The book Lannisters are far wittier and more entertaining than the Starks, too, so D&D are hardly to blame for that.)

Quote

Anyway, how would I have redone the show? Well, given that D&D were beholden to GRRM's ending, I wouldn't have cut Bran from an entire season. I wouldn't have had Sansa married to Ramsey and raped in season 5. That's hands-down my worst storyline from the show, even worse than Dany's sudden turn to evil.

The topic was about redoing Season 8, although I agree that it's hard to fix much of what went wrong in S8 without going back to earlier seasons.

I do wonder whether the Sansa rape was informed by D&D's foreknowledge of her QITN endgame. They said they decided to do it when they were writing Season 2. Did they know her endgame even then, or did they just make a gamble that turned out well?

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15 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

That's an incredibly weak argument. The Lannister siblings have all been through incredible trauma--walks of shame, amputations, you name it--and have remained far more entertaining than the Starks through it all, even in (I'd say especially in) their darkest moments. 

The Lannisters (Cersei and Jaime anyway) are horrid people and mostly brought their own misery on themselves. Poor Jaime who shoved a kid off the tower. 

But they're witty so there's that.

23 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

 The topic was about redoing Season 8, although I agree that it's hard to fix much of what went wrong in S8 without going back to earlier seasons.

I do wonder whether the Sansa rape was informed by D&D's foreknowledge of her QITN endgame. They said they decided to do it when they were writing Season 2. Did they know her endgame even then, or did they just make a gamble that turned out well?

I think they knew her endgame. I mean I get it -- it's hard to have all these isolated main characters and tell a cohesive story, and they wanted to get her back up north, because that is where she'll wind up in the books. I just wish they had chosen a non-rapey way to do it, and a way that didn't take her character ten steps backward.

Also, this illustrates another point: Season 8 was not where they first went wrong. The show started to go off the rails awhile ago. I don't think season 8 was that much worse than earlier seasons. 

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A few random thoughts I had along the way:

Arya and Sansa getting the news of Jon's parentage would have happened on screen!

The twists and turns of Varys' storyline would have continued throughout the seasons, rather than turn into somewhat of a magic act complete with the ability to suddenly appear and disappear rather randomly, before suddenly going up in flames on a beach with virtually no build up to actually make it resonate deeply as it should -- particularly where the endgame was headed.

The Night King's fascination with Jon at Hardhome should have been explained.  It's clear it wasn't forgotten by the writers because we once again got a scene with the NK pausing to take in Jon's presence in particular, before once again stretching out his arms to raise more dead soldiers.  We also don't know what it was that made him pursue Bran. 

The molten Iron Throne should have flowed over Danaerys' body, poetically encapsulating her quest for eternity and creating a strange and distorted echo of both her father's and brother's fates.  The fact the dragons recognized Jon as a Targaryen should have caused comments and discussions.

Sansa should have become ruler of Westeros, with Jon as King of the independent North.  Bran could have served as advisor to both.   Part of Tyrion's duties as hand to the queen would be overseeing the care of Drogon, who would not care to live in the cold northern climate with Jon.  He would also manage the care of dragon eggs Arya would bring back from her travels, seeing to it that they were safely hatched.  Brienne would be head of the Queensguard -- and NOT have slept with Jamie.  

More focus on characters and decent dialogue over EPIC battles, and greatly diminish use of CGI.  All these years of getting attached to the characters and most of the tremendous character development and the acting performances were wasted by the writing of the last two seasons in particular.  

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18 hours ago, Tikichick said:

The molten Iron Throne should have flowed over Danaerys' body, poetically encapsulating her quest for eternity and creating a strange and distorted echo of both her father's and brother's fates.

That would be awesome!

I definitely think there needed to be more focus on the people over the spectacle. Battles are fun, but without the element of human emotion, it's all a "Sound & fury, signifying nothing" (to go all Shakespearean).I don't mind people failing, but I'd prefer it not to be because they've turned stupid, so Varys should have been hatching some intricate plot, not just, "Hey, YOU should be King!" This is the guy that had been intriguing since Tywin sacked Kings Landing to put his chosen heir on the throne and nobody suspected that was what he was up to, he should be better than this!

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On 5/30/2019 at 4:06 PM, Minneapple said:

Also, this illustrates another point: Season 8 was not where they first went wrong. The show started to go off the rails awhile ago. I don't think season 8 was that much worse than earlier seasons. 

I agree. I mean, for the sake of argument, let's assume we're only trying to fix S8, and that everything before S8 is set in stone.

Let's also assume we know that the storyline has to hit certain immutable beats (most or all of which I assume came from GRRM): the final battle with the AOTD is at Winterfell, Dany burns down all of KL, Jaime and Cersei die together in KL, Jon kills Dany, Bran becomes king, Sansa becomes QITN, Jon is exiled to the NW, Arya leaves Westeros forever, and Tyrion becomes Bran's Hand.

Finally, let's assume that we only have the same amount of time (give or take 440 minutes, or approximately 7.5 hours) worth of episodes to hit those beats.

...Personally, given those constraints, I don't know how much could really be fixed. You still only have six episodes to take Dany from madly in love with Jon to being killed by him. You still have Bran's robotic TV characterization to deal with. You still have Jon's parentage amounting to nothing in the end except a source of conflict between Jon and Dany. There are some changes I think would improve things:

1. Making Bran seem less detached and more kingly, and showing other characters pick up on this. Have Tyrion/Bran have a conversation about power and what's best for Westeros (of the type he had with Varys).

2. Having Jon volunteer to go to the NW to protect Bran's crown and to ensure that no one can use his own claim against Bran.

3. Eliminating the Bronn assassination subplot.

4. Making more space in 8x06 for proper epilogue stuff (Sansa releasing Brienne from her service, e.g.) by cutting the long scenes of Jon and Tyrion walking through the city.

5. Leaning into the idea that Tyrion's love for Dany was blinding him to her true nature, instead of Tyrion randomly announcing in 8x06 to Jon that he was in love with her, too. I mean, heck, Varys could have thrown this in his face in 8x04 when they were arguing over Dany.

6. Giving Arya's NK kill to Jon. It did nothing for Arya's arc and it would have gone some ways to fuel Dany's jealousy of Jon.

7. Include in-text explanations for some of the dumber decisions the characters make, like a line of dialogue where the characters dismiss the danger in the crypts because they don't think the NK will use his resurrection powers, or a line of dialogue that shows that Jon's dragonriding was at the very least raising eyebrows about his parentage, or a line of dialogue at the war council where the possibility of Arya assassinating Cersei is discussed.

8. Eliminating the Gendry/Arya sex scene, Gendry legitimization, and his wedding proposal. The same thing could be achieved by Gendry reaching out to Arya and trying to make plans with her, only to get gently shot down with "That's not me."

9. Showing the cracks in Dany's confident, genial facade in 8x01 and 8x02 more clearly, like a hint of genuine menace or danger in 8x02 with Sansa or having more of a rage meltdown with Tyrion.

...Still, most of this is purely cosmetic. 

I'm not sure that the elective monarchy idea is from GRRM. I actually prefer the idea of Bran and Tyrion just taking over in the power vacuum after Dany's death. You can still have the council scene, but instead of the lords and ladies electing Bran because he has the best story, it would be Bran and Tyrion announcing that Bran's going to be king, the North is seceding, no one else gets to secede, and everyone's going to have to just shut the fuck up and get over it.

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22 hours ago, Tikichick said:

The Night King's fascination with Jon at Hardhome should have been explained.  It's clear it wasn't forgotten by the writers because we once again got a scene with the NK pausing to take in Jon's presence in particular, before once again stretching out his arms to raise more dead soldiers.  We also don't know what it was that made him pursue Bran. 

This right here is why I refuse to believe that D&D had the idea for Arya to kill the Night King way back in season three.  It just didn't add up with what we'd seen.

ETA: This guy has some good ideas, for season eight.  If you have time, check 'em out.

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What a question.  For starters, I wouldn't have had Tyrion yakking so much that it seems like he belonged on the Walking Dead with Negan who can never STFU.

At the very least, Dany should have had Drogon target and burn Cersei first.

Final scene with Drogon, he's buried Dany, found some distant relatives of his own (dragons), and they are heading to KL.

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7 minutes ago, Fiver said:

This right here is why I refuse to believe that D&D had the idea for Arya to kill the Night King way back in season three.  It just didn't add up with what we'd seen.

You don't need to believe that, because D&D themselves said they came up with that idea three years ago.  Depending on when exactly the BTS interview was recorded, that would mean either 2016 or 2015 -- if the latter, that would be during the writing process for Season 6; the former would be during the writing process for Season 7.

Turning Mel's statement to Arya about killing eyes of different colours into a prophecy that she would kill the Night King is an admitted retcon.  

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1 minute ago, SeanC said:

Turning Mel's statement to Arya about killing eyes of different colours into a prophecy that she would kill the Night King is an admitted retcon.  

D&D admitted it was a retcon? 

Anyway, yeah, it bugs me that some people refer to that as a prophecy.  It wasn't.  Mel doesn't even end on blue eyes, it's brown, blue, green.  If that was a prophecy for anything, you would think it would be Arya killing Cersei, since Cersei has green eyes.  But, whatever.  It's ALL "whatever", at this point, lol.

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2 minutes ago, Fiver said:

D&D admitted it was a retcon? 

By saying that they came up with the idea three years ago, which, as I said, is after Season 5 at the earliest.  The scripts for Season 3 were written in 2012.

As you say, it's obviously a retcon even from the structure of the original sentence, which they try to obscure by having Mel say "blue eyes" last when she brings it up again.  In the original episode it's clearly just a way of saying "Arya will kill lots of people".

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1 minute ago, SeanC said:

By saying that they came up with the idea three years ago, which, as I said, is after Season 5 at the earliest.  The scripts for Season 3 were written in 2012.

Thanks.  I was confused as to when they came up with the idea, exactly.

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I'm sure this has been mentioned already, but a YouTuber noted that 58 minutes of the final episode were scenes with no dialogue. I find that absolutely mind-boggling. Were the writers just totally over the show by that point?

To circle back to what's been discussed above, it would've been great to have more screen time of Stark siblings interacting. The media made such a huge deal about them reuniting in S7, yet the characters treat each other like polite acquaintances who don't care if they ever see each other again. 

We should've had at least SOME reaction/discussion to the R+L=J reveal, a debate over how to save Jon, the aftermath of KL, the NK, the fact that their ancestral home was practically turned to rubble etc. It's like none of these life-changing events had any effect on them (or anyone else really). 

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"So who should we have as our new leader? The smartest person? The most natural leader? The strongest warrior? Someone who knows the people the best? The kindest person? Or, heres an idea! Lets have this weird kid who we dont even know what he is anymore who has demonstrated no leadership skills or ambition, knowledge of statecraft or how the kingdom works or what its people are like, has some kind of magic we dont understand, basically just sits around being cryptic, seems to not care about anyone or anything, and must have known all this would happen and has just been cooling his heels while Kings Landing burned. Lets put him in charge! Oh, and his sister just succeeded, FWI." "Sign us the hell up!"

I mean, Not Bran gets to be King because his story is interesting? Like, alright, why not find that guy who ate someones face off after eating basalt's, and make him the governor of Florida, because he MUST have some interesting stories! Makes sense after a few tokes.  

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On 5/27/2019 at 7:57 AM, Fiver said:

Yup.  Actually, this monotone, dead-eyed affect started at the very beginning of season seven, and I hated it.  I realize Arya was trained by Jaqen H'ghar and learned to put on a good poker face, for lack of a better expression, but man, did it get old.  I especially hated the scene where she doesn't show any fear or apprehension over fighting the Army of the Dead and nonchalantly throws a dagger at a target like it's no big thing while talking to Gendry.  Give me a damn break.  I could never get emotionally invested in Arya after a certain point, because she didn't act like any person I know.  There was too much of a disconnect, there.

I didn't mind the coldness because I get it but I hated how smug she was. In all her scenes with Gendry for starters,  which killed the initial chemistry of earlier seasons, and the worst was the council. I really used to like Arya but this season left me bitter with her evolution.

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I don't think they knew how to write an adult Arya, or an adult Bran, so they just made them monotone.  Monotone = maturity.

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I could write a novel on all the ways in which I would have changed the final season, but I won't bore anyone with the details. Without completely rewriting the entire season, these are the two changes I would make:

1) Dany, instead of torching the entire city and targeting innocents, should have ignored the surrender and killed the Lannister army, who had thrown down their weapons, and then gone directly to the Red Keep and burned it down. In the process, innocent civilians would have died both when she went after the armies in the city and the Red Keep, which Cersei had filled with innocents. This would have at least been somewhat believable for the character. Pushed to her breaking point, she could have chosen revenge over her desire to protect the innocent. We could have still gotten devastating shots of the ruined parts of the city in the finale, with dead and severely injured civilians, including children. The Unsullied could still execute Lannister soldiers who survived. It would explain why Jon would be conflicted about killing Dany and need some convincing. Even though she ignored a surrender and disregarded innocent lives, she wasn't some two dimensional evil villain either. Her desire for revenge would be understandable, and it would in some ways be the Machiavellian choice. Cersei isn't trustworthy so getting rid of her and all those who were loyal to her and fought for her may in the long run have been better for Dany strategically, though it would come at the cost of innocent lives. From a moral standpoint it is the wrong decision and therefore killing her would be justified but a little more ambiguous. 

2) Jaime would have returned to King's Landing to kill Cersei, and when he left Brienne he would have told her that. She could still try to argue with him because it would likely result in his death, but he would realize that he could never lead a normal happy life until he had stopped the monster he helped enable and bring to power. This would make sense for his character arc, which was already handled poorly on the show, and it would make Brienne's writing Jaime's page in the King's Guard book poignant rather than pathetic. I would have completely gotten rid of the fight between Jaime and Euron that no one was waiting for or wanted (if a named character was going to kill him it should have been Yara or Dany or Theon had he survived), and had Jaime reach Cersei unharmed. Then when he goes to embrace her, planning to kill her, I would have her stab him, saying something about how he shouldn't have left her. That is more in line with Cersei's character, IMO. Jaime, before he dies, would kill Cersei, and the two would die together as Cersei predicted (in the books, at least) but without destroying both of their characters. It also avoids Cersei getting the heroic ending she did not deserve. The only issue would be that Jon and Dany would have a similar ending in the next episode but I'd rather have Jon killing Dany in a different way than have Jaime not kill Cersei.

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15 hours ago, glowbug said:

1) Dany, instead of torching the entire city and targeting innocents, should have ignored the surrender and killed the Lannister army, who had thrown down their weapons, and then gone directly to the Red Keep and burned it down. In the process, innocent civilians would have died both when she went after the armies in the city and the Red Keep, which Cersei had filled with innocents. This would have at least been somewhat believable for the character. Pushed to her breaking point, she could have chosen revenge over her desire to protect the innocent. We could have still gotten devastating shots of the ruined parts of the city in the finale, with dead and severely injured civilians, including children. The Unsullied could still execute Lannister soldiers who survived. It would explain why Jon would be conflicted about killing Dany and need some convincing. Even though she ignored a surrender and disregarded innocent lives, she wasn't some two dimensional evil villain either. Her desire for revenge would be understandable, and it would in some ways be the Machiavellian choice. Cersei isn't trustworthy so getting rid of her and all those who were loyal to her and fought for her may in the long run have been better for Dany strategically, though it would come at the cost of innocent lives. From a moral standpoint it is the wrong decision and therefore killing her would be justified but a little more ambiguous. 

I like the idea of her ignoring the surrender quite a bit. She could have thrown someone's words back at them by saying "Find me a war where no innocent lives were lost," and had it double as both callous and truth, shading her villainy a bit more, too. I would have liked to have her land Drogon on the Red Keep battlements, and had Cersei surround herself with innocents like literally, so the two of them could face off briefly. Cersei pointing out that more innocent lives will be lost if she continues, and Danerys figuring out "Those people are not your subjects, they are your hostages. They are your prisoners. You think they are a shield. Many shields burned today, I promise you, but no more need to." (addressing the crowd) "I am here to bring the woman who blew up your sept, the woman whose incestuous children ruled over you so cruelly and incompetently, the woman who would see each of you starved if it served her purpose, FINALLY to justice. She is using you as an accessory to her crimes. I offer you all a choice: seize her this instant, or burn as all of her followers today have before you." Have a crowd overwhelm Zombie Mountain, Cersei trying to escape the keep, then running into Jaime, who stops her. They could have a tender moment, that ends with Jaime telling her "There is no escape for you. For us. Either of us. We're caught and now we are going to pay." They embrace..."But not her." He saves her the indignity of being tried and sentenced and executed by Danerys by stabbing her instead. Cersei dies holed up in the Red Keep, Jaime is captured and offered the Wall or execution for treason.

Honestly, there's so many good ideas like this one I have so much fun playing around with them. THank you all!  

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I just think it should have been longer. Enough time go back to visit Mereen for a couple of episodes, to find out what happens to the dothraki, to see Gendry stop in an inn on the way to Storm;s End and run into hot pie and take him with him as a cook. More time with Jamie and Brienne so more was earned. Some time with Cersei, some time with Jon and Tyrion 10 years from now, pissing off the wall.

And before those moments, which I think the story deserved, more in some of the earlier seasons. 

I assume that they spent the two years on the battle scenes, to go out with a bang, so to speak and that they wanted out so they can move on to Star Wars. But I think it was a mistake.

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12 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I assume that they spent the two years on the battle scenes, to go out with a bang, so to speak and that they wanted out so they can move on to Star Wars. But I think it was a mistake.

It kind of was.  You don't half-ass your current job during your final two weeks, just because you're moving onto something else.  Makes you look like a dickhead.

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3 minutes ago, Shakma said:

You don't half-ass your current job during your final two weeks, just because you're moving onto something else.  Makes you look like a dickhead.

You're a better person than I am :). 

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On 6/1/2019 at 9:41 PM, BitterApple said:

I'm sure this has been mentioned already, but a YouTuber noted that 58 minutes of the final episode were scenes with no dialogue. I find that absolutely mind-boggling. Were the writers just totally over the show by that point?

To circle back to what's been discussed above, it would've been great to have more screen time of Stark siblings interacting. The media made such a huge deal about them reuniting in S7, yet the characters treat each other like polite acquaintances who don't care if they ever see each other again. 

We should've had at least SOME reaction/discussion to the R+L=J reveal, a debate over how to save Jon, the aftermath of KL, the NK, the fact that their ancestral home was practically turned to rubble etc. It's like none of these life-changing events had any effect on them (or anyone else really). 

They’ve submitted “The Iron Throne” for nomination in the best writing category for the Emmy’s—can you imagine?

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I think I would have avoided the "life goes on ending" too.  This would mean reversing the the battle against the dead and the battle of King's Landing.  I think the landscape will be fundamentally altered after the dead run through Westeros and change the way life is.  But we see "business as usual" at the end and as another poster noted, Tyrion is sitting in King's Landing making dick jokes with his buddy.

BTW, glowbug, I like your idea a lot about Dany targeting the Lannister soldiers and Cersei, not caring who got hurt in the process.  It makes a hell of a lot more sense (while still being in character) than randomly targeting civilians.  As noted, it would still be the wrong decision but it would make Jon's waffling about making the right decision make sense.  It would show Dany not to be a two-dimensional villain but would legitimately raise the possibility that she might become worse as she tries to break the wheel across the world.  But they chose to make Dany twirl her mustache instead.

As evil and ruthless as Tywin was, he understood one important lesson well.  When your enemy bends the knee, you are supposed to help them back up.  But Dany would break that rule by killing her enemies who surrender to her.  It's like how her father broke the rules by not allowing Ned's father and brother a true trial by combat and demanding that Ned and Robert be given over to him by Jon Arryn for execution.

Edited by benteen
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On 5/17/2019 at 10:32 PM, Maximum Taco said:

Honestly, I think the story they had was fine. 

But everything happened just way too quickly. If they had spread out the War for the Dawn over 6 episodes, and then had the Last War be another 6, I think they would've had time to lay enough ground work to fix all of the issues. 

I actually agree with you, I really liked the end and not because was like a "happy ending" but I think that they made it a little bit more realistic (even that I know that's about fantasy) I don't know if you get it.

But yes, the Last War would have been much better if it was more longer, I personally think the war was great, but I wanted to see more of that because everything ended so faster. 

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On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 9:08 AM, BooBear said:

Last scene. Cersie with her minions smugly drinking her wine thinking she escaped and Jamie finds her... strangles her, the look on her face is shock and horror, once done Arya is the killer and crosses Cerise's name off her list. 

What I would've given for this! I was so disappointed we didn't get to see more faceless Arya in action bec the Frey massacre was so badass.

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Assuming the major character beats would stay the same:

I'd never have Bran lose his humanity if he was to become king. If they worried that making him omniscient would interfere with the rest of the plot, I'd have limited his ability to see things through the weirwood trees only like his book counterpart. The problem with the show is that they did away with so much of the magical aspect of the series that they ended up completely removing Bran's importance as The Last Hero 2.0. in favor of using Bran to confirm Jon's parentage. I'd have highlighted his importance as one of the several saviors of humanity as well as stressed how much he'd sacrificed at age 10 to do the right thing. Bran's one of the most caring, empathetic and selfess characters in the books, and I think there's groundwork for him being a good king in the books. 

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