S08.E01: Winterfell

[mrspidey]

Also...that moment when you realize Bran had been sitting by that gate waiting for Jamie to show up for the whole episode. 

[GraceK]

12 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Sansa isn't acting politically or diplomatically smart at all. Or even as a court-savvy lady. Usually that involves saying the thing the other person wants to hear, while promising nothing, but at least on the surface showing congeniality. Yeah, it's fake, but that's how court-savvy politicians roll to get what they want. It was called being "agreeable" back in the day. A lady should appear agreeable even if behind closed doors she rips you a new one.

Oddly, the best person at this was Littlefinger, who convinced numerous people he was on their side. I thought Sansa said she learned a lot from that particular fellow.

OMG, so true. Because she has boobs, it's a big deal that she executed enemy combatants? I guess she's supposed to be all womanly and sympathetic toward them. 

I find Dany's story fascinating. She's accomplished so much for such a young woman. If she ends up going mad or turning evil, I will be so disappointed. We already have a Mad/Evil Queen in Cersie; we sure don't need another.

YES! And what annoys me is that it’s Tyrion who freaking trusts Cersei to bring troops to Winterfell.  The only smart thing Sansa has been right about is not trusting Cersei, and she’s gonna be seen as this genius next episode when she’s proven right, when literally anyone with a brain, including the audience, should have known not to trust her. In fact, Dany is the only one who doesn’t know her at all. Dany has never met her, she only met her once in the dragon pit. She trusted her hand, Cersei’s BROTHER, and believed him, even though Tyrion let her down all season . Yet she will be blamed 🙄🙄🙄

[Andromeda]

I'm a little stumped about the "rightful king" stuff in this universe. As far as I can tell, being "rightful" means having the biggest army on your side. Aegon the Conqueror had that, and took over all the seven kingdoms. Robert "stole"/"won" the throne (depending on your outlook) in Robert's Rebellion. If you believe his rebellion was justified, or are on his side, like Ned was, then the "rightful" person would be the closest living Baratheon. There's probably a cousin out there somewhere with a claim (and Gendry!).

If you favor Targaryeans, again, doesn't it depend on who has the force to "steal"/"win" the iron throne, like before? Why are we suddenly back to the original line of succession (Jon)? There have been many, many times throughout history in our world where a throne has been contested by one or another branch of the same family tree, which would pit Dany v. Jon.

But if Jon is the closest technically speaking, there are still a few hurdles. First, proof. Did Sam remember to steal the book that mentioned Rhaegar's annulment and wedding to Lyanna? If not, is he expecting the seven kingdoms to take his word and the word of a seer (Bran) related to the family in question at face value? Not only would they need proof of the wedding (or at least witnesses), they would need a birth record and an annulment record. Sure, the old fart who counted his bowel movements made note of it, but I would think there's a proper annulment somewhere in the records. Because it all would seem pretty shady to me otherwise, without Ned to explain it all.

Speaking of an annulment, did the first wife sign it? Or even agree? Or was it recognized by the King, and that was enough? Or the High Septon is really all it takes? Were there any witnesses?

Which brings me to...

I get why Jon's first reaction was "Father lied!" Because that has always bothered me, too, especially that he lied to his wife. But Jon also found out that his dad isn't the kind, honorable man who raised him, but a playboy who dumped his wife who loved him and their two kids, and ran off with another woman, who was also breaking her promise to another man, who loved her.

Did Raeghar give any thought to the fact an annulment would negate his children's birthrights, essentially turning them both into bastards? And did Lyanna not think she ought to, I don't know, send a raven to Winterfell to let them know she ran off with Raeghar of her own free will? So there wouldn't be a war and all over her abduction and rape. What a pair. (And he looks so much like Viserys in flashbacks, he gives me the creeps, lol.)

I definitely feel Jon's pain.

ETA: As for proof, they could always throw Jon and Dany in a fire, and see which one walks out alive...

Edited April 15, 2019 by Andromeda

[GraceK]

Also, to all those anti Targaryen people, don’t  forget that although Robert conquered the throne, he also helped solidify  it by using his TARGARYEN heritage to appease the nobles. So yes, the Targaryen blood right still matters.

[anamika]

52 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

I think my issue with Sansa's characterisation is that I'm having trouble reconciling her being a political savant/ 'smartest person I know' with her putting a woman with a giant army and two dragons on her defensive. 

The problem with Sansa's character is that Davos is around. Everything that Sansa should be doing to be called the 'smartest person ever' is being done by Davos. In season 6, Sansa was called a super diplomat but it was Davos who won over Lyanna Mormont. In season 7, it was Davos who points out Dany's dragons to Jon while Sansa asked Jon not to go south.

I thought for certain that Sansa would be the one to propose a marriage between Jon and Dany. It makes so much sense for her character to do it - LF mentions it to her last season, it would get Jon out of the North and make her the ruler and the North would have a lot of power with Jon in KL. A truly clever person should be able to see all this like a chess player and manoeuvre towards it. Instead she is sitting there making snide remarks at Dany - being immature and childishly condescending and arrogant - and it's Davos who brings up the marriage as something they could think of if they survive the AOTD.

So Sansa has a problem with the food. Why not discuss the logistics of what to do about this privately with Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Davos etc. instead of complaining about it before the Northern lords to score points against Dany? Is that the hallmark of a good leader?

And people are genuinely blaming Glover running away on Jon bending the knee? lol. Since Sansa is so worried about food, she can use the stored grain for the Unsullied instead of useless Glover and his men.

There's also the fact that Sansa's so called smartness is because the other characters are so bizarrely stupid. The only reason for why Sansa is 'smart' about Cersei is because Tyrion is inexplicably trusting in a sister he should know better than himself at this point. Everyone knows about Cersei. The audience knows. But all the characters just have to be stupid about Cersei so that Sansa can be 'smart'.

Like honestly, I want to see what Sansa will do if Jon/Dany are like okay, we are going back. Deal with the AOTD yourselves.

32 minutes ago, mrspidey said:

Also...that moment when you realize Bran had been sitting by that gate waiting for Jamie to show up for the whole episode.

The Bran memes have spread like wildfire all over social media. The show has turned Bran into a comedy character. He was the character who trended the most on twitter.

Edited April 15, 2019 by anamika

[mrspidey]

4 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Did Raeghar give any thought to the fact an annulment would negate his children's birthrights, essentially turning them both into bastards?

Since this is the Book Talk thread:

Raeghar didn't care about legalities. He was obsessed with the prophecy about TPtwP, whom he believed to be Aegon, his son with Elia. But the prophecy also speaks of the dragon having three heads, so he had to father another child. 

Unfortunately, Elia was weak and sickly, and was unlikely to bear another child, so Raeghar chose Lyanna.  

[MadMouse]

15 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

I'm a little stumped about the "rightful king" stuff in this universe. As far as I can tell, being "rightful" means having the biggest army on your side. Aegon the Conqueror had that, and took over all the seven kingdoms. Robert "stole"/"won" the throne (depending on your outlook) in Robert's Rebellion. If you believe his rebellion was justified, or are on his side, like Ned was, then the "rightful" person would be the closest living Baratheon. There's probably a cousin out there somewhere with a claim (and Gendry!).

If you favor Targaryeans, again, doesn't it depend on who has the force to "steal"/"win" the iron throne, like before? Why are we suddenly back to the original line of succession (Jon)? There have been many, many times throughout history in our world where a throne has been contested by one or another branch of the same family tree, which would pit Dany v. Jon.

But if Jon is the closest technically speaking, there are still a few hurdles. First, proof. Did Sam remember to steal the book that mentioned Rhaegar's annulment and wedding to Lyanna? If not, is he expecting the seven kingdoms to take his word and the word of a seer (Bran) related to the family in question at face value? Not only would they need proof of the wedding (or at least witnesses), they would need a birth record and an annulment record. Sure, the old fart who counted his bowel movements made note of it, but I would think there's a proper annulment somewhere in the records. Because it all would seem pretty shady to me otherwise, without Ned to explain it all.

Speaking of an annulment, did the first wife sign it? Or even agree? Or was it recognized by the King, and that was enough? Or the High Septon is really all it takes? Were there any witnesses?

Which brings me to...

I get why Jon's first reaction was "Father lied!" Because that has always bothered me, too, especially that he lied to his wife. But Jon also found out that his dad isn't the kind, honorable man who raised him, but a playboy who dumped his wife who loved him and their two kids, and ran off with another woman, who was also breaking her promise to another man, who loved her.

Did Raeghar give any thought to the fact an annulment would negate his children's birthrights, essentially turning them both into bastards? And did Lyanna not think she ought to, I don't know, send a raven to Winterfell to let them know she ran off with Raeghar of her own free will? So there wouldn't be a war and all over her abduction and rape. What a pair. (And he looks so much like Viserys in flashbacks, he gives me the creeps, lol.)

I definitely feel Jon's pain.

ETA: As for proof, they could always throw Jon and Dany in a fire, and see which one walks out alive...

Technically it's supposed to be by bloodline. But there's been multiple times of people ignoring that. Maegor killed his nephews, the Dance of Dragons, Aegon the Unlikely being crowned over his older brother's son. 

What makes the Jon and Dany situation complicated is a few things. No proof of who Jon is, Aerys supposedly disinherited Rhaegar and Rhaella crowned Viserys on Dragonstone which makes Dany the "rightful" heir. Of course none this matters because marriage and the baby she's carrying solves all the problems.

[Andromeda]

11 minutes ago, mrspidey said:

Since this is the Book Talk thread:

Raeghar didn't care about legalities. He was obsessed with the prophecy about TPtwP, whom he believed to be Aegon, his son with Elia. But the prophecy also speaks of the dragon having three heads, so he had to father another child. 

Unfortunately, Elia was weak and sickly, and was unlikely to bear another child, so Raeghar chose Lyanna.  

All valid reasons to behave so selfishly... not. LOL! Normally I'm down with the romance, but this one leaves me cold because of the tragic fallout.

Speaking of romance, I adored the Jon/Dany dragon-riding scene. I know some felt it was cheesy, but these characters never get to have fun, so I loved seeing a moment of enjoyment. BTW, is it generally believed only Targaryeans can ride dragons? Does Dany know this? And is it because they're the ones with the dragons, so people assumed only they could ride them, not giving anyone else a chance?

And is Winterfell actually prepping for this war? I just rewatched S7/E7, where Jamie was overseeing fortifications at KL as the Unsullied stood in formation outside the walls. I am thinking of tricks like Tyrion pulled at Battle of the Blackwater, with the chain. I'd like to see giant ditches filled with oil-soaked dry branches to set alight surrounding Winterfell.

4 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

Technically it's supposed to be by bloodline. But there's been multiple times of people ignoring that. Maegor killed his nephews, the Dance of Dragons, Aegon the Unlikely being crowned over his older brother's son. 

What makes the Jon and Dany situation complicated is a few things. No proof of who Jon is, Aerys supposedly disinherited Rhaegar and Rhaella crowned Viserys on Dragonstone which makes Dany the "rightful" heir. Of course none this matters because marriage and the baby she's carrying solves all the problems.

Perfect. Great info. I had forgotten those tidbits. So Raeghar was no longer the rightful heir, meaning all his offspring were cut off, too. Including Jon. I am betting the show will never bring this up.

And did Lyanna have to name the boy Aegon? Really? Another one? ...sigh...

BTW, I agree about the baby. Dany thinks she can't have kids, but in the book she had a miscarriage (and was too naive to realize it.) And they keep having her say it. Of course she can have babies that don't have scales...

Edited April 15, 2019 by Andromeda

[GraceK]

8 minutes ago, mrspidey said:

Since this is the Book Talk thread:

Raeghar didn't care about legalities. He was obsessed with the prophecy about TPtwP, whom he believed to be Aegon, his son with Elia. But the prophecy also speaks of the dragon having three heads, so he had to father another child. 

Unfortunately, Elia was weak and sickly, and was unlikely to bear another child, so Raeghar chose Lyanna.  

I’m genuinely wondering the truth about Lyanna and Rhaegar. What if they DID tell someone? Does it seem logical that Lyanna would let her brothers and father die? Is she that cold and selfish? What if they did send a raven, or tell Varys, or even Aerys the truth? I wonder if somehow miscommunication happened and that’s what kicked off the war? 

[Happy Harpy]

4 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Winterfell, the north, the south, NONE of it is hers just because she says so; period !

Yes, it is, since the king bent the knee to her. That's how it works in Westeros.

The North has zero chance to survive without her armies and her dragons. If anything, they should prove themselves valuable of the sacrifices she made and is going to make for them.

[Eyes High]

What a fucking gorgeous episode: the new opening credits, lighting, direction, costumes, sets were all *chef’s kiss*. The production values on S8 are indeed as wonderful as advertised.

I was prepared to be disappointed in the Jon/Arya scene based on spoilers, but it was lovely and beautiful. Worth waiting 8 years for. 

[Misplaced]

I thought Dany's line "if she can't respect me...." was totally chilling.  I keep seeing her inching ever slowly towards being the Mad King.  The number of times people say "she's not her father" is too much Chekov's Targaryean. 

Echoing of course that JonGon isn't "his" father (Ned)....because, if you were Dany, and one of your dragons practically rolls over and says "scratch my tummy" to some random dude from the North, wouldn't you start asking questions about who he really is?  

The opening credits were amazing. 

Is Cersei really pregnant?  I wondered last season if 

Spoiler

she had a stomach tumour.

[anamika]

10 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

I thought Dany's line "if she can't respect me...." was totally chilling. 

No, that's just plain diplomacy 101 and the rules that dictate Westeros. One is respectful to their monarch or their liege lord. Like Yohn Royce and Ned Umber are respectful to Sansa.

You think Robert Baratheon would have been okay with Ned Stark being disrespectful to him in front of other houses and lords? Jon puts up with Sansa's disrespect because she's his sister and there's not much he can do. Dany on the other hand, does not have to put up with Sansa snark.

The fact that Sansa needs to be taught these things tells us more about Sansa than it does about Dany. Jon is more of a diplomat than Sansa at this point - trying to smooth over and settle matters between his snide sisters and the Queen.

Edited April 15, 2019 by anamika

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, Nanrad said:

I don't think Sansa is useless or was intended to be useless, I think she is a poorly utilized/realized character. Now, of course, many disagree with that, but others mentioned, it's a lot of telling and not showing and that's a huge problem. Sansa is supposed to be cunning and politically savvy, but her interactions with Dany prove otherwise. 

At this point in the game, which only she, Cersei, and Lord Glover are playing, she should know better than that. I feel like if Margaery were in her place, she would be the person Sansa fans claim Sansa is.

This, exactly. Margaery's "shall we pray" in S6 is how I imagined Sansa would play it and the character she should have been, imo. The writers are trying to make Sansa a "boss ass bitch" but it isn't her, she's supposed to be a boss in another way.

Just now, Eyes High said:

I was prepared to be disappointed in the Jon/Arya scene based on spoilers, but it was lovely and beautiful. Worth waiting 8 years for. 

Imo, Arya seeing him among the crowd was a stroke of genius (it worked as well for the Hound and Gendry). Like this, people who waited for the reunion weren't mad about Arya's absence in the courtyard, because they had something before, and Jon and Arya could have their private moment instead of being caught in the political awkwardness. Arya's look when she saw him had the image of her about to throw away Needle come to my mind. Jon could have a proper reunion both with his brother and his sister, separately, and the emotional impact was maximum.

Jon and Bran's reunion was much better than I imagined, too, in those settings. Jon tearing up when he saw Bran made me all teary eyed, too.

Oh, and Tormud and Edd's BFF hug? Was another of those little details that made me love the episode.

[Advance35]

And I'll say it.  Sansa was right.  Whatever is "more important" Jon wants the North fighting AOD (and later Cersei, for his Queen) waltzing in and saying he handed over the crown the North gave him was a blunder.   As a result, some of his men left.

Men Sansa spent a lot of time catering too.  I felt Sansa's frustration.  If Lord Royce takes his Vale Forces and goes home, they are down that much more fighting men.

But because Sansa isn't smiling and waving pom poms, she's an evil B w/ an itch.  I have to roll my eyes at the circle jerk.

If you don't Yes Sir or Yes Mam Jon and Dany, your the story villain.

[AshleyN]

1 hour ago, Andromeda said:

I'm a little stumped about the "rightful king" stuff in this universe. As far as I can tell, being "rightful" means having the biggest army on your side. Aegon the Conqueror had that, and took over all the seven kingdoms. Robert "stole"/"won" the throne (depending on your outlook) in Robert's Rebellion. If you believe his rebellion was justified, or are on his side, like Ned was, then the "rightful" person would be the closest living Baratheon. There's probably a cousin out there somewhere with a claim (and Gendry!).

As others have pointed out, technically Robert did claim the throne through his lineage. The rebels basically declared that the Mad King's actions were enough to remove both him and his descendants from the line of succession, meaning Robert (whose grandmother was a Targaryan) was next in line. I'm pretty sure that's the main reason Robert was chosen as the figurehead of the rebellion in the first place, instead of Jon Arryn (who was the first to revolt) and Ned (who had the biggest beef with Aerys).

But yeah, your larger point is correct, and is one of the big themes of the series really -- "Power resides with whoever men believe it resides." "Rightful" claims can be flexible and murky, and ultimately tend to come down to whoever can best defend them.

[anamika]

12 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Men Sansa spent a lot of time catering too.  I felt Sansa's frustration.  If Lord Royce takes his Vale Forces and goes home, they are down that much more fighting men.

No worries. Sansa now does not have to worry about feeding the Unsullied and Dothraki anymore if Glover and his men have run away and the Vale soldiers want to leave as well. Sansa can use the stored grain for Dany's more steadfast army.

Anyway Sansa was getting their support for herself, not for Jon. They did not care about Jon anyway. So good riddance.

And what's the point of having men around who need to be cajoled and pleaded with to stay and fight the AOTD and who run off because petty politics is more important? Glover is of the North - and even HE does not want to volunteer to fight the dead. And people are shitting on Dany?

When Dany and Jon walk the Winterfell grounds surveying the digging of trenches, you can see Unsullied in the background building a Trebuchet. And Sansa is whining about feeding them?

The xenophobic Northerners glaring at Missandei and Greyworm  - and these are the folks risking their lives to defend useless hacks like Glover - whose loyalty changes from second to second. The Unsullied on the other hand stand ready to defend the North.

Which army is better to have standing by you during the battle against the dead? Weather Vane Glover and his men? Or the Unsullied?

Edited April 15, 2019 by anamika

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, anamika said:

No worries. Sansa now does not have to worry about feeding the Unsullied and Dothraki anymore if Glover and his men have run away and the Vale soldiers want to leave as well. Sansa can use the stored grain for Dany's more loyal army now.

Anyway Sansa was getting their support for herself, not for Jon. They did not care about Jon anyway. So good riddance.

And what's the point of having men around who need to be cajoled and pleaded with to stay and fight the AOTD and who run off because petty politics is more important? Glover is of the North - and even HE does not want to volunteer to fight the dead. And people are shitting on Dany?

When Dany and Jon walk the Winterfell grounds surveying the digging of trenches, you can see Unsullied in the background building a Trebuchet. And Sansa is whining about feeding them?

The xenophobic Northerners glaring at Missandei and Greyworm  - and these are the folks risking their lives to defend useless hacks like Glover - whose loyalty changes from second to second. The Unsullied on the other hand stand ready to defend the North.

Which army is better to have standing by you during the battle against the dead? Weather Vane Glover and his men? Or the Unsullied?

Seriously. Let Glover and his men die.

[MadMouse]

20 minutes ago, anamika said:

No worries. Sansa now does not have to worry about feeding the Unsullied and Dothraki anymore if Glover and his men have run away and the Vale soldiers want to leave as well. Sansa can use the stored grain for Dany's more steadfast army.

Anyway Sansa was getting their support for herself, not for Jon. They did not care about Jon anyway. So good riddance.

And what's the point of having men around who need to be cajoled and pleaded with to stay and fight the AOTD and who run off because petty politics is more important? Glover is of the North - and even HE does not want to volunteer to fight the dead. And people are shitting on Dany?

When Dany and Jon walk the Winterfell grounds surveying the digging of trenches, you can see Unsullied in the background building a Trebuchet. And Sansa is whining about feeding them?

The xenophobic Northerners glaring at Missandei and Greyworm  - and these are the folks risking their lives to defend useless hacks like Glover - whose loyalty changes from second to second. The Unsullied on the other hand stand ready to defend the North.

Which army is better to have standing by you during the battle against the dead? Weather Vane Glover and his men? Or the Unsullied?

Say what you want about the Lannisters but at least their men and army is loyal. Last season they stood strong against the Dothraki and a dragon. And were preparing to march North.

The Northerners on the other hand run home the minute someone does something they don't like. It's not new, remember the GreatJon being a whiner with Robb?

[whateverdgaf]

20 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

Say what you want about the Lannisters but at least their men and army is loyal. Last season they stood strong against the Dothraki and a dragon. And were preparing to march North.

The Northerners on the other hand run home the minute someone does something they don't like. It's not new, remember the GreatJon being a whiner with Robb?

Remember Tyrion's book quote about how Jaime made men want to follow him? And Tyrion did a good job of inspiring the troops at the Battle of Blackwater, whilst being a dwarf in an extremely ableist society. 

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

Yes, it is, since the king bent the knee to her. That's how it works in Westeros.

The North has zero chance to survive without her armies and her dragons. If anything, they should prove themselves valuable of the sacrifices she made and is going to make for them.

The small doomed boy sits with 22 unmounted farmers at his back and has a voice in the council.  the north is a low gradient society. Jon was elected, not anointed, and they are justified in expecting some involvement in major decisions.

Westeros is a big place. The north, the kingsmoot, kings landing (etc) have different expectations of government. 

Sansa is right about feeding the dragons. 80 sheep and Dany is worried they have eaten so few — and they can’t forage themselves very well.  she should bring it up often. 

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, Misplaced said:

I thought Dany's line "if she can't respect me...." was totally chilling. 

If she continues to be so blatantly disrespectful she's going to force Dany's hand.  If Dany continues to let her get away with that then she is (rightfully) going to be seen as weak.  Even Ned Stark, the world's most honorable man,  would not have tolerated it if someone like Roose Bolton had repeatedly and openly snarked at him. 

Ironically enough the best possible thing for Dany and Jon is for the NK to show up as quickly as possible.  No time for bickering when the zombies are at your gate!

[whateverdgaf]

9 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

If she continues to be so blatantly disrespectful she's going to force Dany's hand.  If Dany continues to let her get away with that then she is (rightfully) going to be seen as weak.  Even Ned Stark, the world's most honorable man,  would not have tolerated it if someone like Roose Bolton had repeatedly and openly snarked at him. 

Ironically enough the best possible thing for Dany and Jon is for the NK to show up as quickly as possible.  No time for bickering when the zombies are at your gate!

Didn't Robb once set Grey Wind on a lord who was disrespecting him, resulting in said lord losing his fingers? And was hailed as a strong, badass leader.

[Haleth]

Well, I am hooked again.  Up until 9pm last night I was kind of indifferent, only tuning in out of a slight curiosity to see how it ends.  As soon as the cellos started the theme song and we were whisked through the catacombs under Winterfell I was drawn in again.  

Loved every minute.

How great was it to see all the reunions?  Some made me tear up, especially Jon and Arya of course.  (But why couldn't we get a 15 second meeting between Jorah and little Lyanna M?)  They saved the best for last though.  Jaime and Bran.  NCW was awesome... Jaime looks around the mud covered castle, sees a random kid sitting across the court, staring at him.  Oh.  OHHHH!  LOL

[Misplaced]

27 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

If she continues to be so blatantly disrespectful she's going to force Dany's hand. 

Oh, sigh, the interwebs are such an imperfect form of communication, especially when it comes to Sansa (apparently).  No question on my part that Sansa was impolitic.  She's "working to rule" i.e. doing the absolute minimum required by her contract (as it were), "Winterfell is yours, your Grace" etc etc.  IMO the writers are trying to show how difficult the choice is in GoT between "my family" and "what is the right thing for the situation / the honorable thing" -- this of course is the question Ned faced in the first season and the question JonGon is facing when he learns who he really is.  

My comment that Dany's line was chilling was just that -  I thought it was chilling.  The delivery, the pause, the scary implication that Sansa could be the next Tarley.  This is not to say that Sansa IS being respectful or that Dany doesn't have every right to tell Jon it's a concern.  I just felt there was an immediate fiery threat in her statement that gave me a l'il ole shiver.  Dragon Diplomacy, as it were.  

Which will make the public revelation that Jon = Aegon even more a shocker to Dany, if that revelation ever happens.  Can she respect him?  He's the "true" heir.  If she can't respect him ... what happens then?  

[Minneapple]

4 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Dany had zero reason to go WF to save Sansa or the xenophobic people she rules. It's not like the North has any value. 

If Dany had zero reason to go North...then she shouldn't have gone. But she's proclaiming herself queen and it's a queen's duty to protect her subjects whether they like her or not. 

[Growsonwalls]

I think we could argue all day about Sansa vs. Dany but heres something to chew on: if Samsa is wary it's because she has been severely traumatized by Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsay Bolton and Littlefinger. Shes not going to trust her brothers gf just because. 

Dany on the other hand has always been supported and propped up by people. Let's see how well Dany reacts to repeated rape, her father beheaded in front of her, etc.

[SeanC]

11 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think we could argue all day about Sansa vs. Dany but heres something to chew on: if Samsa is wary it's because she has been severely traumatized by Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsay Bolton and Littlefinger. Shes not going to trust her brothers gf just because. 

Dany on the other hand has always been supported and propped up by people. Let's see how well Dany reacts to repeated rape, her father beheaded in front of her, etc.

Dany was repeatedly raped by Khal Drogo.

I don’t think anybody thinks Sansa should be a Dany fangirl at this point, but her behaviour simply doesn’t make sense if Dany is the budding tyrant that you assume Sansa fears she is.  This is not how a smart person would approach this situation.

But again, this is nothing new for the show’s writers.  Openly insulting people you don’t like and being really obvious about it is the mark of a true player of the game, in their lexicon.

[merrick715]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Like honestly, I want to see what Sansa will do if Jon/Dany are like okay, we are going back. Deal with the AOTD yourselves.

3 hours ago, mrspidey said:

Well, she'll be killed and join the ranks of The Night King's army. How would Dany or Jon leave these ungrateful Northerns to die, help Dany achieve her goal of being Queen?  All that would happen is the Night King keeps adding more Northern bodies into his army, bodies that Dany, Jon, and her army will have to defeat. How is that helpful when she still has to fight Cersei for the Crown? Dany's army would have already finished one military campaign, only to turn around, and Cersei's army, who are fresh.

Since Sansa's political blunders have been discussed, I want to move onto Dany's. She wants to rule over the seven kingdoms and decided the best way to win the people is by scaring the crap out of them with her dragons doing a flyby.

Yes, Sansa didn't have the best tone, when she asked Dany what her dragons ate, but I don't think the question merits a thinly veiled threat. The only other interaction they had was in the courtyard. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by merrick715

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, screamin said:

The question needed to be asked, publicly. 

Sansa wasn’t asking a question, though, she was very obviously implying that Dany and her army are a burden and should leave.

If she was actually focused on logistics, she’d be looking for solutions.

[anamika]

15 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Dany on the other hand has always been supported and propped up by people. Let's see how well Dany reacts to repeated rape, her father beheaded in front of her, etc.

In case you forgot, Dany was repeatedly raped. So badly that she wanted to kill herself and took the help of her Dothraki maids to survive.  She grew up with a brother who sexually and physically abused her. They were beggars who were hunted by assassins and fleeing for their lives. Unlike Sansa, Dany did not have a childhood.

Every character on this show has suffered. Jon was stabbed to death and has PTSD. Arya is a traumatized child soldier who has seen people tortured to death. Bran is crippled and turned into the 3ER.

Let's not have a suffering olympics here.

[Happy Harpy]

4 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think we could argue all day about Sansa vs. Dany but heres something to chew on: if Samsa is wary it's because she has been severely traumatized by Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsay Bolton and Littlefinger. Shes not going to trust her brothers gf just because. 

Dany on the other hand has always been supported and propped up by people. Let's see how well Dany reacts to repeated rape, her father beheaded in front of her, etc.

I must have dreamed this episode where Daenerys was sold by her brother and raped on her wedding night. Or Dany losing her child, or having to mercy-kill her vegetable husband, starving in the desert, finding her friend's head in a bag, or being whipped. Every character suffered.

Daenerys didn't have it easy. Everything she had, she earned. I guess it's easy to forget about it because her suffering isn't her only accomplishment or the most important thing about her character arc.  She used her trials to get stronger, and didn't wallow in her suffering. When people supported her, she earned it, too. It's incredible how not being a bitch to people can win them over -except when they're TSTL, of course. Sansa's attitude isn't new, by the way. Remember how sweet she was to Septa Mordane in S1?

Sansa isn't asked to trust Daenerys, she isn't asked to like her, not even by Daenerys herself. She's asked to respect her as her guest, as an ally of her house, as a huge military power that her precious North needs so much.

[merrick715]

11 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Sansa wasn’t asking a question, though, she was very obviously implying that Dany and her army are a burden and should leave.

If she was actually focused on logistics, she’d be looking for solutions.

Is Sansa Rumplestiltskin? Food in a finite resource, she can't make it appear out of thin air. The North isn't an agricultural hub at the best of times, and I think the war of the five things made their food situation worse.

Edited April 15, 2019 by merrick715

[benteen]

Great to have Game of Thrones back!  I really enjoyed the episode last night.  It wasn’t perfect.  There was a lot of set-up and moving pieces together.  But still, I give it a strong 8.

Loved the callback to the first episode with the royal procession to the North.  Winterfell was given a nice expansion here.

I understand Dany’s arrival is awkward for Sansa and the North and Jon bent the knee after promising not to but for God’s sake, Sansa continues to be a moron.  For a “player” she knows absolutely nothing about making alliances and she’s hung up about everything else except for the real threat around her.  I had to laugh at the writer having every character saying that she’s the smartest person that they know when that couldn’t be further from the truth.

I’m glad that Jon is more vocally making his case that protecting the North is his number one priority though it’s clear that the disloyal as hell North won’t listen to him.  Agreed that Jon probably could have worded a few things better.

I greatly enjoyed all the reunions with Jon and Arya being the highlight, with them comparing swords.  The reunions were a definite highlight and the best bit of fan service.  Like the Jon and Dany dragon ride.

Theon’s rescue of Yara sure went better than Yara’s did.  I like that they resolved that rather quickly.

Bronn has a good storyline this year but I can’t see him going through with it and I don’t quite buy that Cersei would have Jaime killed.  I laughed at the fact that Lena Heday and Jerome Flynn still managed to avoid having a scene together.  That must have been some kind of break-up they had years ago. 

Two all-stars tonight, the first being Euron who was entertaining with just about every line out of his mouth.  The second was John Bradley, who really nailed that scene with Dany as well as the aftermath.  Despite his feelings for his father, I suspected he would take the new hard.  At long last, Jon finally knows the truth about his parentage.  I wonder how the North is going to take that.

Great, creepy scene with the Umber kid.  When he was pinned on that wall, I was wondering if they would at least bury him or burn the body and then I was like “Oh.”  Then the kid opened his eyes!  Not a great plan sending him to Last Hearth, Sansa…

We come full circle with Jaime and Bran.  Jaime probably thought he brain-damaged Bran when he saw him looking all zoned out like that.

Can’t wait till next week!

14 minutes ago, screamin said:

Did Sansa murder a child in this episode and I missed it?

Sansa wanted to murder two children last season the Umber and Karstark heirs.  Jon spared them and they stayed loyal to House Stark.

[Advance35]

Quote

 She's "working to rule" i.e. doing the absolute minimum required by her contract (as it were), "Winterfell is yours, your Grace" etc etc. 

Why should she do more?  

As anti as she is, she worked to keep what troops they had at Winterfell, supporting Jon's cause.  She kept her mouth shut though she probably wanted to APPLAUD when Lyanna Mormont went in on Jon.   And surface subservient.  Does Dany insist she MEAN it?  

Jon just thinks everyone is going to follow him blindly.  Maybe it's a Targaryen trait.  He didn't even tell them that IF they survive the AOD, Dany and Jon will expect them to march on Kings Landing aka another war.

Sansa's opinions are never factored into Jon's decisions.  So she's becoming more transnational.  Pointing out realities that should be considered. 

Lack of food will be a real problem but he and "Her Grace" shrug and go off on a magic carpet, I mean, Dragon ride.

Quote

Yes, Sansa didn't have the best tone, when she asked Dany what her dragons ate, but I don't think the question merits a thinly veiled threat. The only other interaction they had was in the courtyard. 

I thought Sansa was smart to not direct her question of food at Dany.  She directed it at her Lannister Hand.   Sansa loathes Dany, but again, she didn't speak out about Jon's ill advised kneeling, not publicly anyway.   

And I thought it was a fair question.   Sansa budgeted for the North.   She didn't plan on having to stretch limited resources even further.   A pity Dany and her entourage of yes-men didn't bring anything to contribute.

[anamika]

11 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

Is Sansa Rumplestiltskin? Food in a finite resource, she can't make it appear out of thin air. The North isn't an agricultural hub at the best of times. Where is she going to find the food to feed the largest army the world has ever seen.

The dead are getting there pretty soon. How long does it take to travel from Eastwatch to Winterfell? As per Tormund the dead were between them and WF. And there is wight Viserion.

Is Sansa deciding whether it's better to be a hungry soldier or a well fed wight?

And again, these are logistical issues she can privately discuss with the other leaders instead of using it to attack Dany - which was what she was doing.

And if she really does not want to feed Dany's army, she can kick them out, make herself useful and go build that Trebuchet.

11 minutes ago, benteen said:

Sansa wanted to murder two children last season the Umber and Karstark heirs.  Jon spared them and they stayed loyal to House Stark.

No she did not. She wanted to strip them of their lands. Not kill them.

Edited April 15, 2019 by anamika

[YaddaYadda]

The whole sniping about why Jon bent the knee is so stupid.

The north always ruled itself independent of the Iron Throne. The kings who visited Winterfell can be counted on the fingers of one hand, literally. The north was required to pay homage to the throne and taxes, but was otherwise left to its own devices. They didn't bother the crown and the crown didn't bother them.

This is a return to the status quo. Anyway . . . some characters need to set their ambitions aside and think of more pressing matters.

Sansa's concerns about food supplies reminded me of Bowen Marsh in the books.

I felt nothing at the reunions and if I went a bit further, I felt a little more with Bran/Jon than Jon/Arya. I don't know, maybe I'm just going with the motions at this point.

Bran waiting for an old friend. I thought Jaime was going to arrive like 2 minutes later, not the following morning. 

Ned Umber was one of the best parts of the show for me, when he was called up, and he just popped out from behind someone 3 times bigger than him and then didn't know who to address first, how to address anyone. So him being impaled upon that wall, surrounded with those "glyphs" and then being raised and screeching like that was just pretty bad.

It was good to see Edd.

A++ for the CGI and special effects. It has come such a long way.

The Golden Company

Fat, balding, blistered toes Homeless Harry wishes he looked like that.

Edited April 15, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[SeanC]

18 minutes ago, benteen said:

Sansa wanted to murder two children last season the Umber and Karstark heirs.  Jon spared them and they stayed loyal to House Stark.

No, Sansa was not proposing they be killed.  She said they shouldn’t keep their lands.

[merrick715]

20 minutes ago, anamika said:

The dead are getting there pretty soon. How long does it take to travel from Eastwatch to Winterfell? As per Tormund the dead were between them and WF. And there is wight Viserion.

I don't know. Time and distance are concepts that seem to be fluid in Westeros.  Maybe the Night King grabbed Petyr's jet pack.  😉

Edited April 15, 2019 by merrick715

[screamin]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Sansa wasn’t asking a question, though, she was very obviously implying that Dany and her army are a burden and should leave.

If she was actually focused on logistics, she’d be looking for solutions.

To start working for solutions, one first needs to know that a problem exists. Sansa WAS regent of the North, and dealt with the problem of feeding the North adequately as it stood, but now the king that appointed her is a landless warden, there a new queen and her army and dragons, Sansa's authority has been diminished back to being one more lord at the council, and the problem is something that the queen MUST know of, because it's her decision how to deal with it. Dany might decide she wants solutions from Sansa, or her new Hand, or use other resources she might have that Sansa knows nothing of. Saying that it's Sansa's responsibility alone - despite her diminished power to do anything - to miraculously pull hundreds more of tons of grain from her ass when we SAW how tight things were with food at WF is passing the buck. Whether Sansa asked rudely or not, it is a problem the queen needs to be aware of. The Northerners are hanging on the answer. 

Myself, I think she was shaken from her usual courtesy by Tyrion's revelation that Cersei's army was going to 'help' them. That would wake up a lot of old trauma. Not to mention that seeing who Dany and Tyrion are trusting to 'help' would leave Sansa with a lot less faith that they're smart enough to resolve the food issue. Sansa may even have the presentiment that it will eventually be up to her to sell her ass (and hand in marriage) to SR to get the Vale's food for the north - there must be a reason for all those glum hushed conferences with Royce. If I were Sansa, I'd be pissed too.

[MarySNJ]

10 hours ago, screamin said:

If Jon tells the truth about how he gave up his crown to Dany even though she was willing to help the North without conditions, HE'D come off as a besotted fool, but at least he'd take the heat off Dany. Shouldn't that be his aim as her loyal warden?

Saying "She was willing to help the North as an ally without my bending the knee, but I was so moved by her goodness I decided she was our rightful queen" would make him look rash and infatuated, but it could only make Dany look better. It would certainly make her look better than Jon saying he HAD to give up his crown to her to save the North, which makes her (unfairly) seem greedy instead of generous. 

I think Jon did bend the knee because she earned it. He was reluctant because he understood how the Northerners would react, but when she risked her life and sacrificed her dragon to save them beyond the wall, she proved that she was worthy of his fealty. It may be that she would have done it anyway, but she gave everything she had to Jon's cause, and what else did he have to give her in return but his fealty? 

This is SOP for Dany. People are skeptical about her until she proves herself. I expect the same will happen in this season. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by MarySNJ

[quarks]

4 hours ago, Andromeda said:

 As Dany told Jon in S7, for centuries they lived in peace with a Targaryean on the throne and a Stark as Warden of the North.

Well, no? In living memory of several people in that hall, the North joined Robert to rebel against the Targaryens.  This was followed just a few years later by the Greyjoys rebelling against the Baratheons.

After all, Dany's father killed Ned's father and brother. According to the accepted story in the North - the one Sansa repeated to Littlefinger, who looked as if he knew better, but didn't bother to correct the story - Rhaegar also kidnapped and raped Lyanna Stark and incited the entire country into a civil war.

So, no, they don't have a history - even a recent history - of living in peace with the Targaryens. They know that Dany's brother kidnapped and raped Lyanna Stark, that Dany's father set Ned's father and brother on fire, and that they fought a rebellion against them in retaliation/vengeance.

It's also probably pertinent that the also from the south Baratheons are related to the Targaryens, and most of the North has spent the last several years either fighting against the (supposed) Baratheons with Robb or the real Baratheons (Stannis) with the Boltons.

Which is to say, we've now seen years of the North feeling distinctly unthrilled with Southern Houses and rulers.

In more recent history - sure, Dany has dragons. But everyone in that hall knows that one of those dragons was captured by the Night King and turned into a weapon against the North. That ice dragon is why the Wall fell down (which Sansa knows about and brought up), increasing everyone's danger.

In terms of the rest of her army? The show has mentioned several times that the people of Westeros have been told for years that the Dothraki are barbarians, murderers and rapists - and this isn't wrong. We've seen Dothraki murder and rape people on the show. Dothraki leaders flat out stated that they would be gang-raping Dany. There's a reason why the North isn't going, OH YAY, THE DOTHRAKI ARE HERE.

The Unsullied are a different matter - but they apparently arrived without food, and with winter here, and show-Winterfell apparently not having the hot glass/greenhouses that book Winterfell has to continue to feed/grow supplies through the winter, this is a major issue. 

And sure, Dany has brought wagons of dragonglass with her - but she didn't discover that Dragonstone had a cache (that was Sam) or that dragonglass would be useful (Sam again) or mine it/turn it into weapons (hi Gendry). And perhaps most importantly, the dragonglass was actually in Westeros. She didn't bring it across the Narrow Sea. 

I like Dany. I especially like that she is doing the right thing - she's putting off her conquest of Cersei in order to deal with the much bigger, immediate threat - the Army of the Dead. This is awesome. I also loved that she didn't try to conceal that she executed Sam's family. Also awesome.  But I also think that the Northerners have some reason for their skepticism - not just that they've spent the whole show so far resisting/fighting the north, but also because of what they're seeing right now. And I like that Game of Thrones is showing something realistic here - that people aren't always grateful and happy when you do the right thing.

And Sansa's not the only one expressing doubts. For all of the "Sansa was rude," well, Sansa and Bran were at least there to greet Dany properly and welcome her to Winterfell. Arya went and hid in the crowds and has yet to say hello, and pretty much told Jon to be cautious with Dany. Lyanna Mormont spoke up. And Sam outright told Jon that Dany isn't the rightful, legal ruler - and was somewhat emotionally manipulated into that by Bran, who seemed to choose the moment when Sam would be the most against Dany.

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

The dead are getting there pretty soon. How long does it take to travel from Eastwatch to Winterfell? As per Tormund the dead were between them and WF. And there is wight Viserion.

Is Sansa deciding whether it's better to be a hungry soldier or a well fed wight?

And again, these are logistical issues she can privately discuss with the other leaders instead of using it to attack Dany - which was what she was doing.

I've given up trying to figure out travel times on this show. But in terms of a private meeting - that pretty much was a private meeting with the other leaders. Large, sure, but everyone in that room was one of the military leaders or a lord of the North or the Vale - that is, the people providing the food.

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

What was so shocking to me about this episode is that the Tarly reveal upset Sam enough to run to Jon but Sam doesn't even know about the method of execution yet.....Dany didn't tell him.

Yeah, I know most folks hear their family members died most would ask the basic question ; HOW ?

But Danerys did say without being specific, I gave your father a choice he refused and your brother stuck with his father I ended their life.

She just left out the barbecue part. 

Either how; filters down, Bran tells him, Sam has his own conclusion , or it's left as stated. 

[AshleyN]

5 hours ago, Nanrad said:

I don't think Sansa is useless or was intended to be useless, I think she is a poorly utilized/realized character. Now, of course, many disagree with that, but others mentioned, it's a lot of telling and not showing and that's a huge problem. Sansa is supposed to be cunning and politically savvy, but her interactions with Dany prove otherwise. 

At this point in the game, which only she, Cersei, and Lord Glover are playing, she should know better than that. I feel like if Margaery were in her place, she would be the person Sansa fans claim Sansa is.

Okay, so she ran Winterfell while Jon was gone, it is in the best interest of her people that she either plays nice with Dany or be cordial due to AOTD. Also, sooner or later, HER Queen, regardless if she accepts her as such, will get tired of her insolence and do something about her behavior. Sansa wants Dany to show her respect, how about she show Dany some respect because Jon already bent the knee--it's done. The power has been transferred. And, again, for someone who is so good at the game and learned it from Cersei, how many royals has she interacted with to know that their kindness can flip into cruelty in a matter of a second. SO, either she is being an idiot OR she's taking advantage of the relationship (???) Dany and Jon have. Her defiance to royalty doesn't make any sense. It's best if she faked nice and kept her head down.

I enjoy the potential of Sansa, but I hate it when her stans excuse everything, but find fault in what every other character does, but never her.

Like what payoff have we gotten in Sansa not trusting Jon during the Battle of the Bastards? What was the point in that? Yet, people swore she was justified although many men got killed because Sansa didn't trust Jon, the commander of the army for a war she insisted he wage, with info that she had another army on the way.

People mention Sansa warning Jon about Ramsey, her interactions with Cersei, and her relationship with LF as to why she's so smart, but let's keep in mind that she had a sinister and abusive relationship with all of them (maybe not LF for the abuse part, idk???). Remember she warned Jon that he didn't know what Ramsey was capable of? That wasn't being smart, that was speaking from experience which is a completely different thing. The same goes with Cersei--Sansa was around Cersei long enough to know how demented that woman is as well as sadistic. She watched as LF schemed and tried to mack on her after claiming he was in love with her mother.

With all of this being said, that is why I'm not pro Sansa in her stand off with Dany: her behavior is the antithesis of a politically savvy person. And let the record state: I'm not a Dany Stan, but I do find Sansa's reaction to Dany quite poor (in regards to who she is said to be).

Politically savvy people also don't question or undermine their rulers in front of other leaders unless they are showing fake concern as they put doubts in other peoples heads. Sansa did not do that. She's being defiant. I can't speak for Ramsey, but even Cersei and LF faked nice to more powerful people for over a decade as they schemed to get where they are. But, Sansa can't do it with someone who commands literal dragons??? People are speculating that Dany could go mad, which if true, wouldn't Sansa be top on that list well? How is that smart?

4 hours ago, whateverdgaf said:

I think my issue with Sansa's characterisation is that I'm having trouble reconciling her being a political savant/ 'smartest person I know' with her putting a woman with a giant army and two dragons on her defensive. 

Either Daenerys is Sansa's ally, in which case she should endeavour to keep good relations and set an example for the fickle, xenophobic Northern Lords, or Daenerys is a potential enemy/threat, in which case marking herself out as a opponent to Dany isn't a smart move. Whereas offering the olive branch could lower Dany's defences and give Sansa a upper hand.

As a rule of thumb, making the woman with two dragons and an army dislike you is a bad idea. 

I'm always hesitant to wade into Sansa debates, because people tend to be crazily invested in one side or the other, but this is pretty much where I am too. It's not about whether or not Sansa's issues with Dany and Jon are justified* but about the fact that she went about dealing with it in the dumbest, most unproductive way possible. And it's incredibly frustrating to me, because I want her to be the character that's being described to me -- the idea of Sansa emerging from her trials as a great player was such an exciting prospect to me -- but her entire character right now is a textbook case of telling rather than showing.

You can talk about her "growth" until the cows come home, but I'm pretty sure current Sansa wouldn't have lasted five minutes in King's Landing with Joffrey.

*And even that I think is undercut by the fact that she's still completely failing to grasp the magnitude of the threat posed by the White Walkers.

Edited April 15, 2019 by AshleyN

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

1. I think someone mentioned this already, but ITA agree that Maisie did a wonderful job w/the emotions playing over Arya's face as Jon, Gendry, and the Hound rode into Winterfell.

It took my second watch to see her disappointment , sadness, that Jon did not see her as he rode by.

[SeanC]

8 minutes ago, screamin said:

Saying that it's Sansa's responsibility alone - despite her diminished power to do anything - to miraculously pull hundreds more of tons of grain from her ass when we SAW how tight things were with food at WF is passing the buck. Whether Sansa asked rudely or not, it is a problem the queen needs to be aware of. The Northerners are hanging on the answer. 

I didn’t say it was her responsibility alone.  But she was not raising the issue to facilitate a solution, she was using it as a tool to attack the army’s presence.  That isn’t productive.

Quote

Myself, I think she was shaken from her usual courtesy by Tyrion's revelation that Cersei's army was going to 'help' them. 

What ‘usual courtesy’?  She always acts like this on the show.

[dragonsbite]

I'm so sick of the Sansa vs Dany debate. Please accept that neither side is going to agree with the other.


On a more interesting topic, can we speculate on the weapon that Arya asked Gendry to create? What was that? A long knife? A short spear? Why would she want something that comes apart? Or was her drawing just implying that it's part dragonglass and part (metal/wood) shaft?  I thought it was designed to come apart -- like the knives soldiers added to their rifles in previous times.

Edited April 15, 2019 by dragonsbite
punctuation kills

[screamin]

34 minutes ago, benteen said:

Sansa wanted to murder two children last season the Umber and Karstark heirs.  Jon spared them and they stayed loyal to House Stark.

As SeanC and Anamika pointed out, Sansa did not want to murder them, only divest them of their lands. One might consider such a punishment too harsh, but it's not infanticide. Nor is asking how this giant army is to be fed without starving the North - however rudely one asks this necessary question - as indefensible as child murder, IMO.

[merrick715]

Bran's interesting to me now. He tells Sansa and Dany that there are more important things to worry about than their courtesies, and has Sam to tell Jon the truth about his parentage, but finds time to wait outside, for at least one night to scare the shit out of Jamie.  Maybe this is a sign that Bran won't be stuck in robot mode forever.

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, paigow said:

All of which could have been avoided if those assholes at the Citadel told Sam the truth.....

Yes and no, Sam WRG to Dickon would still be upset, he also have a longer time to steam, so his actions may still be the same, maybe more determined, because of his then fresh discovery.

 

5 hours ago, Andromeda said:

who was also breaking her promise to another man, who loved her.

Lyanna didn't promise Robert, her father did, Lyanna told Ned Robert would never hold to one bed, she didn't love him.

Rhaegar and Lyanna come off as reckless, and Rhaegar also comes off as cruel to his subject and Dorne for the way he insulted or dumped his first wife.

 

4 hours ago, GraceK said:

I’m genuinely wondering the truth about Lyanna and Rhaegar. What if they DID tell someone? Does it seem logical that Lyanna would let her brothers and father die? Is she that cold and selfish? What if they did send a raven, or tell Varys, or even Aerys the truth? I wonder if somehow miscommunication happened and that’s what kicked off the war? 

This is a long standing possibility, many seem to believe Benjen knew, and because of the tragic fallout decided to take the black.

WRG to Lyanna, she was in the TOJ, so maybe news didn't filter quick enough.

I wonder if Bran will explain this part of their history.