S08.E01: Winterfell

[Clanstarling]

3 minutes ago, taanja said:

I have watched the series from beginning to end several times... especially any and all Arya scenes.

In my perception of Arya' and Gendry's relationship -- it WAS like brother/sister.

When Arya says stay and be my family -- I took it to mean like siblings. At this point in the story -- she had basically lost her real family. She felt alone in the world.

 I never picked up on any sort of romantic vibe-- and besides--- the characters haven't laid eyes on one another in years. So that's why the sudden flirting and pointed looks took me out of the scene.

And for me, that's precisely why it worked for me. Someone you knew long ago as a buddy/friend is now in front of you, you've both aged and been through some shit, and hey, guess what, he's hot. As for "be my family" - I didn't take it to mean siblings - because my husband's my family too. One of the fun, and often frustrating, things about the forums is how differently we perceive the same things.

[GraceK]

52 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Yeah I get the feeling like they chose him after a big military victory but don't actually respect him.The way they talked to him,I just can't imagine any other ruler sitting by while a kid calls him nothing and the rest basically cheer behind her.Maybe it's because he's a bastard and that stigma still stayed even when he was named king.

Robb had Grey Wind bite a finger off for disrespect. He also had Grey Wind menace Jaime right in the face when he was prisoner. Jaime almost shat himself.  And follow him into battle tearing peoples heads off. I like how no one ever complained about that though and called him barbaric? The lack of Ghost on this show has done Jon no favors.  Dany gets a lot of grief for her dragons, but the wolves are a major part of house Stark and pretty Dangerous and powerful as well, huge mythical beasts. And if Jon listened Melisandre and kept Ghost near him, he wouldn’t have gotten stabbed to death.

Edited April 19, 2019 by GraceK

[GodsBeloved]

23 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Robb had Grey Wind bite a finger off for disrespect. He also had Grey Wind menace Jaime right in the face when he was prisoner. Jaime almost shat himself.  And follow him into battle tearing peoples heads off. I like how no one ever complained about that though and called him barbaric? The lack of Ghost on this show has done Jon no favors. 

Lord Umber told Robb what he was going to do after hearing Robb's instruction on who would lead the vanguard. He informed Robb that he would lead the vanguard or he would take his men and go home. He even called Robb boy.

Robb responded that when he's done with the Lannisters, he would root Umber out and hang him for the oathbreaker he was. Umber stood, tossed his plate aside and told Robb he won't stand there and swallow insults from a boy who is so green he pisses grass.

All of that disrespect and Grey Wind hadn't moved.

It wasn't until Umber reached for the weapon on his hip that Grey Wind attacked. We even see Theon jump up at this point.

I didn't take that as Robb sicing GW on Unber for disrespect. GW attacked when Umber was about to become physically threatening.

Edited April 19, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[BitterApple]

I think it will be positively hilarious if Jon's selling point for bending the knee was Dany's army and dragons, only for them to be rendered ineffective in battle because they can't handle the cold. 

[GraceK]

13 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Lord Umber told Robb what he was going to do. He would lead the vanguard or he would take his men and go home. He even called Robb boy.

Robb responses that when he's done with the Lannisters, he would root Umber out and hang him for the oathbreaker he is. Umber stands, tosses his plate aside and tells Robb he won't stand there and swallow insults from a boy who is so green he pisses grass.

All of that disrespect and Grey Wind hadn't moved.

It wasn't until Umber reached for the weapon on his hip that Grey Wind attacks. We even see Theon jump up at this point.

I didn't take that as Robb sicing GW on Unber for disrespect. GW attacked when Umber was about to become physically threatening.

So he reached for a weapon and that’s the response? Not very fair . I mean, he has all these men around him, why can’t he stand up man to man and draw his own sword? Kind of overkill right to use such a powerful dire wolf? Not very sporting. Gross display of power. 🙄

actually I loved that scene. I thought it was great. I love the wolves and the more they attack and defend the happier I am. My point is that there seems to be a double standard when it comes to Dany as opposed to the Starks. People have been saying for years that they cannot wait for Jon to ride a dragon , to have both a wolf and dragon, how awesome!! If Jon rode into battle on Rhaegal burning Lannister’s the fan base would have wet themselves with glee. Dany uses her dragons however and she’s a mad tyrant. Even when she’s bringing them to help fight with the North, still, certain portions of the fanbase are  giving her a hard time. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by GraceK

[Drogo]

Just now, GraceK said:

So he reached for a weapon and that’s the response? Not very fair . I mean, he has all these men around him, why can’t he stand up man to man and draw his own sword? Kind of overkill right to use such a powerful dire wolf? Not very sporting. Gross display of power.

Except Robb didn't send Grey Wind to attack Umber.  Grey Wind sensed that Umber was being an insubordinate dick and interrupted his nap to eat 2 of his fingers. 

[GraceK]

6 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Except Robb didn't send Grey Wind to attack Umber.  Grey Wind sensed that Umber was being an insubordinate dick and interrupted his nap to eat 2 of his fingers. 

And Drogon senses what Dany feels as well. There is a literal parallel to the wolves bond to the Starks and Danys bond to her Dragons. They are the only characters in the story who have magical creatures who mystically tied to them. 

And Robb certainly didn’t seem to mind at all 😂

and this right here is my point. I draw one comparison to the Starks with their wolves and already the defenses go up, because God forbid They are in any way  compared to Daenerys Or seen as bloodthirsty or not better somehow.

endless defenses and excuses will be made.

Edited April 19, 2019 by GraceK

[GodsBeloved]

12 minutes ago, GraceK said:

So he reached for a weapon and that’s the response? Not very fair . I mean, he has all these men around him, why can’t he stand up man to man and draw his own sword? Kind of overkill right to use such a powerful dire wolf? Not very sporting. Gross display of power. 🙄

actually I loved that scene. I thought it was great. I love the wolves and the more they attack and defend the happier I am. My point is that there seems to be a double standard when it comes to Dany as opposed to the Starks. People have been saying for years that they cannot wait for Jon to ride a dragon , to have both a wolf and dragon, how awesome!! If Jon rode into battle on Rhaegal burning Lannister’s the fan base would have wet themselves with glee. Dany uses her dragons however and she’s a mad tyrant. Even when she’s bringing them to help fight with the North, still, certain portions of the fanbase are  giving her a hard time.

I love that scene too. One of my favorites of the entire series.

The Starks, as a family, are definitely among my favorites and I'm indifferent to Dany.

I didn't think it wise to burn the Taryls but I don't crucified her for it. I don't even take issue with her killing them, only the way she chose to do it because as others have said, optics.

Edited April 19, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, GodsBeloved said:

I didn't think it wise to burn the Taryls but I don't crucified her for it. 

I agree. I think she was in the right and it was justified, but it was a bad PR move . 🤷🏻‍♀️ I wish the show was going with that angle instead of “ maaaadd queeeeen!” Lol. Have Tyrion just say it doesn’t look good for Aerys daughter to start her rule in Westeros burning people instead of judging her for burning people .. does that make Sense? Because it’s hypocritical and nonsense IMO and they are blowing it out of proportion. But I’m not gonna open that can of worms! 😂

[MrWhyt]

58 minutes ago, GraceK said:

So he reached for a weapon and that’s the response? Not very fair . I mean, he has all these men around him, why can’t he stand up man to man and draw his own sword? Kind of overkill right to use such a powerful dire wolf? Not very sporting. Gross display of power. 🙄

he didn't order Grey Wind to attack Umber, the wolf did it on his own.

[GraceK]

15 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

he didn't order Grey Wind to attack Umber, the wolf did it on his own.

That’s worse then!! Omg an out of control direwolf who just randomly attacks anyone who even looks at his master the wrong way or who he thinks  may possibly attack his master??That’s dangerous . 🙄😂 different rules I guess.

thats the point I’m making. No matter which way you slice it, both families have mythical , dangerous creatures who are loyal to them. Danys is more powerful , yes. But both Starks and Dany have used them in battle, in defense, and protection. It’s only Daenerys who gets shit for it. That’s my point.

Edited April 19, 2019 by GraceK

[MrWhyt]

Just now, GraceK said:

That’s worse then!! Omg an out of control direwolf who just randomly attacks anyone who even looks at his master the wrong way or who he thinks  may possibly attack his master??That’s dangerous . 🙄😂 different rules I guess.

you'd have a point if there was any evidence of the wolves attacking people at random. 

[GraceK]

3 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

you'd have a point if there was any evidence of the wolves attacking people at random. 

Nymeria is roaming around the Riverlands killing off  all the Frey’s with her Wolfpack. And you just said that Grey Wind acted on his own, which means that according to you, Robb has no control over his own dangerous beast who can tear people apart. And personally, I don’t care because I love the wolves and I love the dragons. I love the Starks and I love Daenerys. I just don’t like the hypocrisy that is thrown at Dany.

Edited April 19, 2019 by GraceK

[MrWhyt]

2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Nymeria is roaming around the Riverlands killing off  all the Frey’s with her Wolfpack.

is she though? you're going to have to show me the episode that this occurs in

Quote

And you just said that Grey Wind acted on his own, which means that according to you, Robb has no control over his own dangerous beast who can tear people apart.

Grey Wind defended Robb against a threat, we have no evidence that he attacks people at random, we have no evidence that he is anymore prone to violence than your average dog.

Edited April 19, 2019 by MrWhyt

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, MrWhyt said:

is she though? you're going to have to show me the episode that this occurs in

Oh I’m sorry this is the non book thread I really apologize! I forget where I post sometimes.

1 minute ago, MrWhyt said:

Grey Wind defended Robb against a threat, we have no evidence that he attacks people at random, we have no evidence that he is anymore prone to violence than your average dog.

He didn’t actually. As I stated in my post with another poster, it was a perceived threat, Umber didn’t actually do anything, but if we are gonna hold Robb to that same standards people hold Dany too, Grey Wind attacking Umber for that is overkill. Dany has merely threatened people with her dragons For threatening to kill her and people call her a tyrant.  And I also dont believe the wolves  attack people at random, but your argument that Grey Wind acted on his own makes it sound that Robb has  no control over him. Therefore, the alternative is that Grey Wind cannot be controlled and will just lash out at whoever. 

Now, I thought that scene was awesome and I find nothing wrong with it. But people screeching that Dany using her dragons is unfair, or wrong, or barbaric seem very happy to overlook Grey Wind ripping off fingers, menacing Jaime who was a prisoner, and tearing people apart in battle. It’s an unfair standard. That’s all.

[MrWhyt]

Just now, GraceK said:

  And I also dont believe the wolves  attack people at random, but your argument that Grey Wind acted on his own makes it sound that Robb has  no control over him. Therefore, the alternative is that Grey Wind cannot be controlled and will just lash out at whoever. 

nope you're conflating "robb didn't control him" with "robb cannot control him", they are two different scenarios.

[GraceK]

7 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

ope you're conflating "robb didn't control him" with "robb cannot control him", they are two different scenarios.

Ah ok then. So what your saying is that Robb chose not to control him. Cool. That actually proves my point even more. He’s seen as badass and is given respect and feared for that. It helps him. He is called the Young Wolf and legends are being told about him. Dany is the same , she is given respect and feared, called The Mother of dragons and her legend grows as well. But which one outside the show is given crap ? 🤷🏻‍♀️ I made my point. This has gone off topic and I’m not gonna derail this thread further. You don’t agree clearly, a lot of people don’t. I’m used to it 😊 but if this goes on we are gonna get a mod warning. Good discussion though.

Edited April 19, 2019 by GraceK

[TaurusRose]

4 hours ago, Constantinople said:

The charge was the disaster, and it was Jon's fault.

It’s crucial that we let them charge at us. They’ve got the numbers, we need the patience - Davos Seaworth the evening before the Battle of the Bastards, during the battle planning at which Jon, Sansa and Tormund were also present.

Neverthless Jon ignore this and almost destroyed his army as a result.

You see it one way and I see it another.  Almost doesn't count.  And Jon's reaction is perfectly understandable.  Done talking about this.

[JayBird23]

On 4/18/2019 at 9:10 AM, Bali said:

Uhmmm- because by the time the NK gets to Kings Landing, by that reasoning, he will have 3 undead dragons and then be able to raise the skeletons that are under the keep also.

The Night King and the Dragons will all be dead by then and also all the White Walkers--Kill the Night King and they all perish.  Cercei wont have to worry about them at all. 

[JayBird23]

5 minutes ago, Drogo said:

That's all?

NO!  Episode 3, a week from Sunday, is going to be the biggest battle in the history of Game of Thrones.  There will be a lot of carnage.  Besides the Night King, the Dragons and the entire Dead Army, we are going to lose not a few of our favorite characters.

At this point I want to make something very clear to you all:  I have no idea what really will happen, mine is just a guess.  Guessing is allowed, lol.

We all love the Dragons, no one more than I, however, to have peace I don't think we can have Dragons.  Otherwise it's a dictatorship.  We may have to break the wheel and get rid of the Iron Throne. as well. 

[Lady S.]

6 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I never understood why the three-eyed raven was referred to as the three-eyed raven, but your post made me wonder if there's one eye looking at the past, the second eye looking at the present and the third looking at the future

A third eye as symbol for a seer is a pretty established trope. Btw, Bran's first glimpse of the future was in s2, the ep before Theon took Winterfell from him, where he described a dream of the sea coming to Winterfell and drowning people, including Ser Rodrik. Not a very helpful vision without context.

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

And for me, that's precisely why it worked for me. Someone you knew long ago as a buddy/friend is now in front of you, you've both aged and been through some shit, and hey, guess what, he's hot. As for "be my family" - I didn't take it to mean siblings - because my husband's my family too. One of the fun, and often frustrating, things about the forums is how differently we perceive the same things.

And the line was actually "I could be your family", in direct response to him saying he'd never had one. No implication that she meant it as replacing her own (though Gendry and Hot Pie were certainly surrogates in the same way Jon's NW brothers were for him), when she was always planning to find Robb and Catelyn.

6 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Okay, I think this a valid possibility. However, just because Bran "saw" Jaime intending to go to Winterfell that doesn't mean Jaime would necessarily get there. Bran seemed totally confident Jaime would arrive.

If he could see Jaime on the kingsroad a day or two from Winterfell in the present, it'd be a pretty safe bet he'd make it there alive as the enemy was east of Winterfell, not south. 

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

No matter which way you slice it, both families have mythical , dangerous creatures who are loyal to them. Danys is more powerful , yes. But both Starks and Dany have used them in battle, in defense, and protection. It’s only Daenerys who gets shit for it. That’s my point.

Yeah, the daughter of the Mad King burning people as execution is definitely bad optics, but it's not like getting eaten by a direwolf is a clean death either. Ghost did that to Rast and in the battle at Castle Black, Grey Wind did it offscreen in all Robb's battles, Summer killed the cutthroat and then he and Shaggy killed wildlings to help Jon escape. We can't assume they always got an instant kill bite.

Edited April 19, 2019 by Lady S.

[Clanstarling]

2 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

And the line was actually "I could be your family", in direct response to him saying he'd never had one. No implication that she meant it as replacing her own (though Gendry and Hot Pie were certainly surrogates in the same way Jon's NW brothers were for him, when she was always planning to find Robb and Catelyn.

I'd forgotten the actual line - even more reason why I didn't take it as a sibling reference.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, JayBird23 said:

We all love the Dragons, no one more than I, however, to have peace I don't think we can have Dragons.  Otherwise it's a dictatorship.  We may have to break the wheel and get rid of the Iron Throne. as well. 

Breaking the wheel doesn't mean turning the Seven Kingdoms into an an anarcho-syndicalist commune, where everyone takes turns to act as sort of executive officer for the week, but where all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two thirds majority in the case of external affairs

It just means the people won't get crushed by the nobility.

Quote

Lannister, Targaryen, Baratheon, Stark, Tyrell. They’re all just spokes on a wheel. This one's on top, then that ones on top and on and on it spins, crushing the people on the ground...I’m not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel - Daenerys

[izabella]

7 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

It just means the people won't get crushed by the nobility.

Or it means she intends to crush all the nobility so she stays on top.  Hard to say what "break the wheel" means.

[3jt]

ok, I was trying to get through the forum before commenting so that I didn't duplicate someone else-- however, I'm only on page 7 and there are 10 pages!! Theon rescuing Yara "so easily" has been said many times- my take is that this ship just pulled into dock- these sailors have been at sea for quite some time..... I'm pretty sure that most of the crew is following the Captain's lead and visiting some women folk. My guess it that it's a skeleton crew made up of the guys with the least amount of time at sea. I'm sure that Uncle Creeper figured that with both Yara and the ship "tied up" in King's Landing it was pretty safe.

[Colorful Mess]

Dany talks about her vision for stopping wheels that roll over both the rich and the poor--just as she rolls over the rich and the poor. The soldiers were both highborn and low in that little group of frightened prisoners she rounded up. Demagogues and tyrants often use strategic misnaming in which you accuse the opposition of doing exactly what you’re doing. Dany's actions remind me of the Mongols who forced conquered peoples to submit while those who resisted were destroyed. She is a sympathetic villain.

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

Dany talks about her vision for stopping wheels that roll over both the rich and the poor--just as she rolls over the rich and the poor. The soldiers were both highborn and low in that little group of frightened prisoners she rounded up.

But she didn't kill them, she only killed the leaders (who refused to join her).  Even the Targaryens before her who were considered "good" would have done the same.

[Nanrad]

9 hours ago, AnnaL said:

I do not know that, Sansa asked him directly and he didn't deny it. 

I have always thought he did it to soothe Dany for the lost of Viseryon. 

Strategically I think it harmed Dany instead of helping her. If Jon was still the KITN and they were allies it would have resonated with the North much more. They wouldn't see her as a threat but as an Allied and once she and her armies and dragons would have defeated the WW then I am sure that their gratitude would have made them willing to join her anyway. 

Let's not forget that Daenerys had Jon at Dragonstone for months as "a guest", for months Jon wasn't sure if she was going to help him or not, he should have explore other option (like wildfire) in the event she never helped. During those months she constantly asked him to bend the knee. If his rational reasons were that the wealth of his people were at stake and they needed her armies and dragons no matter what, then he lost precious months. He should have bent the knee as soon as he got there and get the plan moving as far as mobilizing troops and supplies needed for the war. 

 It just so happens that he fell in love with her as this happened? uhmmm mighty coincidental if you ask me, specially when he "bend the knee" when he was half naked in bed while she was rubbing his hand. 

There is nothing wrong with Jon falling in love with her, matter of fact I don't begrudge him any bit of happiness he can get. As a man, he has suffered enough and I hope at the end of this he gets to walk away with the NK's head and the girl, but right now without knowing the outcome of the war to come I just can't help but think that Jon is stubborn and emotional and sometimes he fails to communicate his decision to others in a way that can help him win them to his side. Honesty my problem is not with him bending the knee if he thought that was the only option to secure her help, my problem was that he didn't negotiate anything for his people for after the war, he probably think that nothing matters but to the northern people who have suffered enough it does matter. 

Yea, it doesn't make it true, but most of us know it isn't, which is why the scene is infuriating. That is not why he bent the knee. Others are only doubting it because he hesitated not because there was ever any ambiguity of why he bent the knee. 

Honestly, what's the point? All we have to do is rewatch the season and see the motive behind his decision, but since Sansa accused him in certain things, we doubt Jon, despite Sansa not being there and us knowing better.

I don't understand debating the merits of Sansa's accusation. At this point, Sansa could say, "You only went to Dragonstone to get a queen" and we'd been debating the merits of that even tho we know better.

After rewatching the episode, Jon explains his motivation quite well and always has. If the North gets slaughter, at this point, it's what they deserve. 

[Nanrad]

8 hours ago, taanja said:

I have watched the series from beginning to end several times... especially any and all Arya scenes.

In my perception of Arya' and Gendry's relationship -- it WAS like brother/sister.

When Arya says stay and be my family -- I took it to mean like siblings. At this point in the story -- she had basically lost her real family. She felt alone in the world.

 I never picked up on any sort of romantic vibe-- and besides--- the characters haven't laid eyes on one another in years. So that's why the sudden flirting and pointed looks took me out of the scene.

So, Arya's feelings for Gendry is akin to how Cersei used to feel about Jamie???

[tangerine95]

8 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Yea, it doesn't make it true, but most of us know it isn't, which is why the scene is infuriating. That is not why he bent the knee. Others are only doubting it because he hesitated not because there was ever any ambiguity of why he bent the knee. 

Honestly, what's the point? All we have to do is rewatch the season and see the motive behind his decision, but since Sansa accused him in certain things, we doubt Jon, despite Sansa not being there and us knowing better.

I don't understand debating the merits of Sansa's accusation. At this point, Sansa could say, "You only went to Dragonstone to get a queen" and we'd been debating the merits of that even tho we know better.

After rewatching the episode, Jon explains his motivation quite well and always has. If the North gets slaughter, at this point, it's what they deserve. 

Yeah it's like if Sansa says something we're supposed to ignore what we saw.The entire season was basically Jon learning more about Dany so that when he bent the knee it was because he truly felt she deserved it.We saw him doubt her and talk to the people who follow her,talk to Dany herself,then saw Tormund even tell him Mance was wrong not to bend the knee and then Dany saves his life at great cost to herself and offer to fight with him still.Reducing that to it was just love as motivation makes sense for Sansa who doesn't know what happened but not for the audience imo.

[Nanrad]

Back to Arya, she is young when she developed a crush on Gendry. She doesn't know how to feel about those feelings and, to her, liking a boy is considered girly (like Sansa), so she isn't really obvious about her crush. But, she clearly has a crush on Gendry that she's trying to hide in the scene where Gendry is shirtless. She didn't have those same moments with Hot Pie nor did she flirt or do a little twirl for him. Gendry has never been played or presented as a brother like figure for Arya. He was a friend who she developed a crush on, but one that she didn't actively entertain nor could she.

[Colorful Mess]

"Mance was a great man...king beyond the wall... How many people had to die for his pride." That Tormund line is more about the fact that Mance is the guy who had too much pride and his people died because of it. The wildlings simply needed humanitarian aid but Mance got a ton of them killed in his war because he couldn't simply submit to the king's laws. Jon probably doesn't want to be known as the guy who dragged his people into a war with Dany because of his pride. 

I think Jon told the Northern Lords the truth, and Sam speaks the truth on the matter as well. He became Torrhen Stark who knelt in fear of what Dany could do to his people if he kept his title. Because Dany would always, ALWAYS be threatened by his title. You can see it in the way she carries herself in the North: she always cared about taking the North for herself. That never went away. And now we know she is volatile because Sam's POV comes in. If Sam knows this within 3 minutes of meeting her, Jon knows this too. 

"You bent the knee to save your people." I think this is the truth. It comes in a scene where Sam is telling Jon (and the audience) the facts of the matter. I don't think Sam means Jon saved his people from the AOTD by getting an army--because why did he have to do that if she already agreed to help? There's no "saving" then. Where is the sacrifice if Dany gives him free stuff? It can only mean that he is placating Dany so she feels less threatened by his title when they go North.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Colorful Mess

[Nanrad]

7 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

"Mance was a great man...king beyond the wall... How many people had to die for his pride." That Tormund line is more about the fact that Mance is the guy who had too much pride and his people died because of it. The wildlings simply needed humanitarian aid but Mance got a ton of them killed in his war because he couldn't simply submit to the king's laws. Jon probably doesn't want to be known as the guy who dragged his people into a war with Dany because of his pride. 

I think Jon told the Northern Lords the truth, and Sam speaks the truth on the matter as well. He became Torrhen Stark who knelt in fear of what Dany could do to his people if he kept his title. Because Dany would always, ALWAYS be threatened by his title. You can see it in the way she carries herself in the North: she always cared about taking the North for herself. That never went away. And now we know she is volatile because Sam's POV comes in. If Sam knows this within 3 minutes of meeting her, Jon knows this too. 

"You bent the knee to save your people." I think this is the truth. It comes in a scene where Sam is telling Jon (and the audience) the facts of the matter. I don't think Sam means Jon saved his people from the AOTD by getting an army--because why did he have to do that if she already agreed to help? There's no "saving" then. Where is the sacrifice if Dany gives him free stuff? It can only mean that he is placating Dany so she feels less threatened by his title when they go North.

Huh?

[Nanrad]

So, it’s wrong for Dany to try and claim the Iron Throne due to her blood claim and that her family used to rule westeroes for hundreds of years? But, it’s okay for the starks to claim the north because of their blood claim and their family ruled the north for hundreds of years? To which both have waged battles/war for this land and claim as well.

Am I missing something here?

[Colorful Mess]

5 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

So, it’s wrong for Dany to try and claim the Iron Throne due to her blood claim and that her family used to rule westeroes for hundreds of years? But, it’s okay for the starks to claim the north because of their blood claim and their family ruled the north for hundreds of years? To which both have waged battles/war for this land and claim as well.

Am I missing something here?

You're just describing a rationale for conflict between these two sides. Dany wants the North. The North wants independence. This will probably lead to war.

The Starks ruled in the North for 8,000 years, not hundreds. The Targaryens for 300. Its just one long hostage situation started by Aegon and restarted by Dany. No one in the North would choose a Targaryen. They chose Jon, he was elected. No one elected Dany in Westeros.

[Lemuria]

5 hours ago, Drogo said:

That's all?

And you thought it was going to be difficult. Ha!😄

[TaurusRose]

20 hours ago, lorbeer said:

I didn't see it as being mean rather being cold to him. She hates Lannisters, she was forced to marry him, she's been through a lot and she's learned she needs to take care of herself. No wonder she didn't welcome him warmly with open arms. We don't even know if she knows what happened to him like trial and all after that. She may know some of that. She never loved him and then she was yet again forced to marry somone she didn't want to. Tyrion treated her well and was nice to her but he didn't do one thing to rescue her from all those monsters. And I mean taking her away from KL not the 'incident' when Tyrion helped her when she was beaten by some soldier (don't remember this exactly) on Joeffrey's commands.

And there's also one thing more why she treats him this way and possibly doesn't trust him. He chose Dany's side. And I don't think Sansa likes it. 😉 In their brief conversation, if I remeber correctly, she says soemthing about him being the hand of the queen now. I think she maybe even despise him for that.

The word cold describes Sansa perfectly. She is cold to everyone and, with the exception of Arya and Bran when they were first reunited, Sansa doesn’t try to see anyone’s POV or understand the situations they’ve been in. She conveniently forgets that Tyrion was forced to marry her, too. He was not chomping at the bit to be tied to a Stark. And while she was held in KL, Tyrion asked her if she wanted to leave and said he would help her, but she insisted she was loyal to Joffrey and loved him. Seems to me she would have jumped at the chance to leave her tormentors, but she didn’t and you can’t rescue someone who doesn’t want to save herself. 

Sansa doesn’t trust anyone, but instead of using Westeros’s version of Wikipedia to try to figure out the motives and alliances of the people around her, she openly antagonizes possible allies.  She doesn’t know anything about Daenerys other than what she’s heard. Sansa was offended when Lady Mormont questioned her marriages to turncoats and enemies without context, but she’s doing the same thing to the people coming north to fight the AoTD. Sansa has the opportunity to observe and get to know Daenerys, but she’d rather throw shade at someone offering assistance and present herself as the put upon Lady of Winterfell to the sycophants around her, like that puffed up lord from the Vale.   

Sansa hasn’t learned anything outside of protecting herself and maybe those named Stark. In that she is just like Catelyn and she could very well make the same mistakes, jumping to conclusions and acting blindly without facts.  Winterfell is just one house in the North and outside of her authority there, she has none. Jon still outranks her as Warden in the North.  I know Jon doesn't want to be a king, but he is a leader.  I wish he would stop taking crap from everyone (his “sister,” the fair-weather lords of the North and everyone else who thinks they have all the answers) and be the leader he was born to be.  

Also, the following things need to be said:  I will be mad if I don’t see Ghost in this final season. I don’t care about Arya and Gendry.  I want Cersei dead.  I don’t care about the North.  I only cared about them marginally because of the Starks, but they have got to be the dumbest, most xenophobic people in Westeros. I’m starting to look at the upcoming war as the culling of the herd.

Edited April 20, 2019 by taurusrose

[CeeBeeGee]

On 4/16/2019 at 1:19 PM, Chris24601 said:

* Seriously, people give Joffrey grief and he's just one generation of inbreeding. Dany is the result of multiple generations of it. Her family tree (family ladder more accurately) is so messed up that not only is she Jon's aunt, she's also his first cousin once removed AND his second cousin once removed. Genetically, they're about on par with full siblings (44% shared DNA).

I have wondered if Dany isn't meant to suggest Cleopatra who was quite intelligent (she spoke numerous languages and was the first Ptolemaic pharoah to speak Egyptian) and yet was the product of multiple generations of incest.

On 4/16/2019 at 11:46 PM, Constantinople said:

Arya said Sansa was the smartest person she ever met.

I agree Sansa may not be the smartest person on the show, but considering some of the people Arya hung out with, her statement may be accurate

Arya is either forgetting her (wonderful) interactions with Tywin Lannister (GOD, I loved their conversations) or she is paying Sansa a hell of a compliment. Sansa is smart--she was able to adjust to the realities and limitations of her hostage status very quickly after Ned's murder execution. Remember her manipulating Joffrey into wanting to be at the vanguard right before the Battle of Blackwater Bay?

On 4/18/2019 at 4:30 PM, Nanrad said:

Well, things can change for people when a few years are removed. But, in the case of Arya and Gendry, you have to rewatch their scenes for a refresher. Arya is clearly ogling his body during a scene where he is shirtless. That doesn’t mean she has all of the feelings in the world for  him, but that something, physically at least, is doing it for her. There is no other way to read that scene.

Gendry, for his part, never shows his hand, but shows that he understands the delicate ness of the situation. Arya tells him to stay and that she can be his family (she’s not referring to a brother like thing, but definitely not boyfriend—she’s unable to comprehend the complexities of her request) and Gendry tells her that she wouldn’t be his family, she’d be his lady. 

There was never romance, but there was moments where Arya had a crush and Gendry doesn’t give away much because 1. Age difference 2. Class difference 3. Social norms that he understands and Arya doesn’t.

The scene doesn’t come out of no where, it’s built upon their past interaction. For example, the”m’lady” conversation. When Gendry found out she came from a “ruling” house, he cracked jokes about it, but never saw her any differently, which Arya appreciated/s. When he sees her again, he makes the same joke as if she’s the same person, but to him, she is and always will be. 

And Arya always has to give him shit, which the “you don’t know any other rich girls” comes in.

Their way of joking around in the past has evolved into their way of flirting now.

I think Arya and Gendry are cute as hell together. ("As you wish, milady..."--my heart squirmed and I am not a "shipper.") And yes, that definitely felt like flirting to me. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by CeeBeeGee
Clean up extra text

[hadia]

I just watched this episode. I felt for Sam because he lost his dad and I think director should break this news to him in a better way. He is such a nice person in the show, so breaking his heart like that doesn't feel great.

Daenerys reached to Winterfell and nobody likes her much. But there is no time left i guess as dead are approaching fast. I missed dead in the episode as I can't see them.

Jon snow got a big news as he is a King of Seven kingdoms, let's see how he reacts in second episode. I enjoy his family reunion though. 

i don't like Sansa much but she is standing for her family and hating Daenerys. But I'm sure this reaction will change soon.

Just now, hadia said:

I just watched this episode. I felt for Sam because he lost his dad and I think director should break this news to him in a better way. He is such a nice person in the show, so breaking his heart like that doesn't feel great.

Daenerys reached to Winterfell and nobody likes her much. But there is no time left i guess as dead are approaching fast. I missed dead in the episode as I can't see them.

Jon snow got a big news as he is a King of Seven kingdoms, let's see how he reacts in second episode. I enjoy his family reunion though. 

i don't like Sansa much but she is standing for her family and hating Daenerys. But I'm sure this reaction will change soon.

One Quote from this Episode "Nothing lasts"

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Dany talks about her vision for stopping wheels that roll over both the rich and the poor--just as she rolls over the rich and the poor.

The amusing thing to me is Jon has probably done more to “break the wheel” than Dany ever has.

He brokered peace between the Wildlings and the Watch/North. He made peace with the children of the men who fought alongside Ramsey. He made peace with Theon and by extension that means Yara and the Ironborn willing to give peace a chance once the war is over.

And he’s done it the same way every time; even as he approached Dany; by not letting past grievances get in the way of making a future.

That’s the biggest difference between Jon and all the other people who’ve been fighting for the Iron Throne. He’s not interested in power to settle past wrongs or acknowledge his greatness... it’s a burden he puts up with because it’s the best way to protect his people; which in the grand scheme of things has always been everyone (not just the North, but the Wildlings and by stopping the Night King he protects everyone else on Westeros).

And as Sir Davos so eloquently summed it up way back in season four, “a King who doesn’t protect his people is no King at all.”

Even without being recognized as it, Jon has always been acting as the True King of Westeros by doing everything in his power to protect its people.

[Nanrad]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

You're just describing a rationale for conflict between these two sides. Dany wants the North. The North wants independence. This will probably lead to war.

The Starks ruled in the North for 8,000 years, not hundreds. The Targaryens for 300. Its just one long hostage situation started by Aegon and restarted by Dany. No one in the North would choose a Targaryen. They chose Jon, he was elected. No one elected Dany in Westeros.

Not exactly.

Sansa and Dany’s motivations were pretty similar. As many have said,  the issue the North takes is because of how the mad king went insane. That’s why the north is so wary. Whether or not they seem themselves as hostages, has nothing to do with Dany having similar motivations for wanting the iron throne back just like Sansa wanted winterfell back. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Nanrad
...

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

I don’t care about the North.  I only cared about them marginally because of the Starks, but they have got to be the dumbest, most xenophobic people in Westeros.

The Iron Islanders are stiff competition

[MrWhyt]

7 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Breaking the wheel doesn't mean turning the Seven Kingdoms into an an anarcho-syndicalist commune, where everyone takes turns to act as sort of executive officer for the week, but where all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two thirds majority in the case of external affairs

i prefer farcical aquatic ceremonies for determining kingship

[Constantinople]

45 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

The amusing thing to me is Jon has probably done more to “break the wheel” than Dany ever has.

He brokered peace between the Wildlings and the Watch/North. He made peace with the children of the men who fought alongside Ramsey. He made peace with Theon and by extension that means Yara and the Ironborn willing to give peace a chance once the war is over.

Jon's treatment of the Wildlings split the Watch into pro and anti-Jon factions, and the leadership of the latter murdered Jon. When Jon was still dead, Davos suggested to Edd that the pro-Jon faction use the Wildlings to regain control of the Watch. After Jon was resurrected, he excuted the leadership of the anti-Jon faction

Jon's alliance with the Wildlings is one reason so many Northern lords wouldn't support Jon before the Battle of the Bastards. After the battle, with the force of the Vale behind Jon, the Northerners seem to tolerate the Wildlings.

As for Jon making peace with Theon, Yara and Theon were already allies of Daenerys, so Jon didn't really have a choice if he wanted Daenerys's help. And in this episode, Yara told Theon they should recapture the Iron Islands because "Daenerys went north. Daenerys will need somewhere to retreat if they can't hold the North. Somewhere the dead can't go". Yara didn't mention Jon's name once. So I'm not sure how much credit deserves on this score

But Jon did give Little Lord Umber his lands back. Poor kid

[TheGourmez]

On 4/18/2019 at 5:26 AM, AnnaL said:

Rulers do not have the luxury to rule with their heart, they have to do what duty demands and that is their burden. Great power comes with even greater responsibilities. 

Let us not forget that we also have Stannis Baratheon as an example of doing what duty demands over following his heart - he killed his own daughter  because he believed duty demanded it to win his throne. And his army deserted him, in large part due to disgust at his lack of humanity in that moment. Who's to say Jon's wouldn't have done the same if he'd abandoned Rickon on that field? Being able to read every action from multiple sides is part of the beauty of this story.

[GodsBeloved]

10 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

"Mance was a great man...king beyond the wall... How many people had to die for his pride." That Tormund line is more about the fact that Mance is the guy who had too much pride and his people died because of it. The wildlings simply needed humanitarian aid but Mance got a ton of them killed in his war because he couldn't simply submit to the king's laws. Jon probably doesn't want to be known as the guy who dragged his people into a war with Dany because of his pride. 

I think Jon told the Northern Lords the truth, and Sam speaks the truth on the matter as well. He became Torrhen Stark who knelt in fear of what Dany could do to his people if he kept his title. Because Dany would always, ALWAYS be threatened by his title. You can see it in the way she carries herself in the North: she always cared about taking the North for herself. That never went away. And now we know she is volatile because Sam's POV comes in. If Sam knows this within 3 minutes of meeting her, Jon knows this too. 

"You bent the knee to save your people." I think this is the truth. It comes in a scene where Sam is telling Jon (and the audience) the facts of the matter. I don't think Sam means Jon saved his people from the AOTD by getting an army--because why did he have to do that if she already agreed to help? There's no "saving" then. Where is the sacrifice if Dany gives him free stuff? It can only mean that he is placating Dany so she feels less threatened by his title when they go North.

Didn’t see it from this POV but I can change my mind and agree that Jon didn’t lie if he meant he was saving his people from the living not the dead.

[One Tough Cookie]

On 4/17/2019 at 6:37 PM, Nanrad said:

rust is earned. Jon wants to trust Sansa, but he thinks she wants people to think she's the smartest person in the room opposed to actually giving useful information. He allows her to sit at the table, voice her opinions, and sit in during strategy meetings f

He'd rather have her pissing from inside the tent out than pissing in from outside in.

I've been thinking about Cersi and that terrible hair.  I remember it was cut for her walk of shame, but I thought it would grown out  I think she keeps it short to look more, masculine and less feminine as we all know how females were treated in KL.  She's channeling Tywin in his simple, authoritative black.

Edited April 20, 2019 by One Tough Cookie

[aemom]

Games of Thrones, I can always count on you for an entirely gratuitous sex scene, lol.

I found it a bit boring, but I expected this episode to be the setup that it was, so no real surprise there.

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, TheGourmez said:

Let us not forget that we also have Stannis Baratheon as an example of doing what duty demands over following his heart - he killed his own daughter  because he believed duty demanded it to win his throne. And his army deserted him, in large part due to disgust at his lack of humanity in that moment. Who's to say Jon's wouldn't have done the same if he'd abandoned Rickon on that field? Being able to read every action from multiple sides is part of the beauty of this story.

My take on Stannis was that it was his overriding desire to be King, not his duty, drove him in his decision to kill his own daughter. There are lines you can't cross and still be considered someone worthy of loyalty and obedience. Burning your little daughter is well past that line. Stannis entered the Game of Thrones because he was pissed that Robert had been King instead of him and thought he was entitled to be king. He had his reasons, but duty, in my opinion, didn't factor in.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Clanstarling

[TaurusRose]

11 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Jon's treatment of the Wildlings split the Watch into pro and anti-Jon factions, and the leadership of the latter murdered Jon. When Jon was still dead, Davos suggested to Edd that the pro-Jon faction use the Wildlings to regain control of the Watch. After Jon was resurrected, he excuted the leadership of the anti-Jon faction

Jon's alliance with the Wildlings is one reason so many Northern lords wouldn't support Jon before the Battle of the Bastards. After the battle, with the force of the Vale behind Jon, the Northerners seem to tolerate the Wildlings.

As for Jon making peace with Theon, Yara and Theon were already allies of Daenerys, so Jon didn't really have a choice if he wanted Daenerys's help. And in this episode, Yara told Theon they should recapture the Iron Islands because "Daenerys went north. Daenerys will need somewhere to retreat if they can't hold the North. Somewhere the dead can't go". Yara didn't mention Jon's name once. So I'm not sure how much credit deserves on this score

But Jon did give Little Lord Umber his lands back. Poor kid

True story except Jon’s grievance with Theon had nothing to do with Dany’s ambitions, i.e. it was strictly personal and justified. Theon betrayed Jon’s family and he had every right to take Theon’s head if he wanted. I think Dany would have understood Jon’s position if it had come to that. And by the time Jon and Theon came face-to-face Daenerys’s alliances had been pretty much obliterated.