S14.E18: Absence

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

I've always said it - he would have been happier with a spare part for the car.

I'd have to dig to find it now, after Mary revealed herself for the cold fish that she is, Emily and I had a little funny exchange on Twitter that made it pretty clear she thought Mary was a crappy gift as well, LOL!

[juppschmitz]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'd have to dig to find it now, after Mary revealed herself for the cold fish that she is, Emily and I had a little funny exchange on Twitter that made it pretty clear she thought Mary was a crappy gift as well, LOL!

I'm really glad that Emily agrees. 👍

[PAForrest]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

🤣

I've always laughed at Emily's take on Amara bringing Mary back for Dean, and how she constantly joked that it was a crappy gift. Clearly Emily has kept up with the show since she left, which is very sweet, and the woman has eyes. She can see the fail with Mary, especially WRT Dean since she was supposed to be his gift, and Dean is the one Mary has treated the most callously to the bitter second end.

And if Emily can see the fail, not being a long-time entrenched fan, then that tells me the regular audience viewer most likely did too.

[SueB]

14 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

The boys are so self-absorbed.  It is all about them.  I don't think it used to be that way.  I am getting tired of their selfishness.

So Dean was pissed at Jack for killing his mom, and yet he still hasn't shown any remorse for the hunters that were killed due to the fact he didn't have the sack to ignore everyone else and follow through and bury himself at sea.  Dean needs to own it.  Only then will I feel bad that he lost his mom. 

Sam does feel guilty about things and I do appreciate that, but he is more than a bit over the top.  He is at wuss level.  Almost whining.  He needs to approach it as an adult, not whine about it.

If Jack has the power to send Mary away  (kill her), I don't know why he doesn't have the power to bring her back alive.  Why can't he go back in time and undo the damage?   It worked for Superman.

If Jack truly lost his soul, he wouldn't give a shit that he killed Mary. 

I just don't like the idea of the essence of what is tormenting and transitioning Jack being represented by Nick.   It should have been anyone other than Nick.  Hell bring back Crowley or perhaps have Mary tormenting him over killing her.  She could have told him that only a soulless bastard would kill his friend's mom.

- It was made clear with multiple lines of dialog: Dean gave Sam and Cas time, if nothing showed up it was "Box. Ocean. Boom".  

- Cause most adults would handle the tragedy of the Winchester life with aplomb?

- Jack is not Superman and he's never been taught to undo time. Mary was atomized.  No coming back easy.  And Heaven is not going to cough out her soul.   

[tessathereaper]

20 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

The boys are so self-absorbed.  It is all about them.  I don't think it used to be that way.  I am getting tired of their selfishness.

So Dean was pissed at Jack for killing his mom, and yet he still hasn't shown any remorse for the hunters that were killed due to the fact he didn't have the sack to ignore everyone else and follow through and bury himself at sea.  Dean needs to own it.  Only then will I feel bad that he lost his mom. 

Sam does feel guilty about things and I do appreciate that, but he is more than a bit over the top.  He is at wuss level.  Almost whining.  He needs to approach it as an adult, not whine about it.

If Jack has the power to send Mary away  (kill her), I don't know why he doesn't have the power to bring her back alive.  Why can't he go back in time and undo the damage?   It worked for Superman.

If Jack truly lost his soul, he wouldn't give a shit that he killed Mary. 

I just don't like the idea of the essence of what is tormenting and transitioning Jack being represented by Nick.   It should have been anyone other than Nick.  Hell bring back Crowley or perhaps have Mary tormenting him over killing her.  She could have told him that only a soulless bastard would kill his friend's mom.

Dean isn't the one who needs to own it. Sam and Cas badgered him into it, calling him weak, calling him a quitter until he agreed not to do it yet.  And more importantly he would have certainly knew from past experience that now that they knew, if they were against the idea, they wouldn't think twice of going behind his back and doing something even worse to prevent him from doing it himself. They've done it to him at least twice so far, in Season 4 and Season 10. That he couldn't trust they'd keep their promise of dropping the box in the ocean after putting him in there, or heck even finding some way to mess with the box itself.  They made it very clear they were against the idea and thought he was weak, selfish and a quitter for wanting to do it.  Which basically meant he was stuck - he couldn't do it himself, he couldn't trust them to help him with it.

Edited April 14, 2019 by tessathereaper

[Lemuria]

I just realized there was another eff/u to Dean and Dean fans in this ep.  When Dean says that Jack killed Michael and Jack killed Nick, and Sam responds, "You almost seem bummed about it."

Right.  Screw you, Berens.

[catrox14]

20 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

mom, and yet he still hasn't shown any remorse for the hunters that were killed due to the fact he didn't have the sack to ignore everyone else and follow through and bury himself at sea.  Dean needs to own it.  Only then will I feel bad that he lost his mom.  

So if Dean had gone though with it , he would have been accused by Cas of being suicidal, and being a horrible brother by Sam for leaving him behind for, and for putting Sam at the kids table for doing it against his wishes. And if he doesn't do it by trying to be kind and understanding about Sam and Cas' viewpoints but also making it clear if they can't find another solution, they must help him go through with it, and if that doesnt happen, then he is weak and junkless.

Dean is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Edited April 14, 2019 by catrox14

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I just realized there was another eff/u to Dean and Dean fans in this ep.  When Dean says that Jack killed Michael and Jack killed Nick, and Sam responds, "You almost seem bummed about it."

Right.  Screw you, Berens.

Holy shit, I missed that part. What the fuck!?

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Exactly this. The guy can't win for losing.

[ahrtee]

On 4/11/2019 at 8:51 PM, S Cook Productions said:

I would think Dean’s short-changed Mary flashback has more to do with him needing time off for New Orleans than anything derogatory on the part of the writers. IMO, of course  

On 4/11/2019 at 9:02 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah, no. Jensen is one of the leads of the show, and the Dean/Mary relationship was (or should have been) the most important one she had, along with Sam. Don't care if Jensen needed a month off, never mind a couple of days. They could and should have shot around that and given him at least one lousy scene in three freaking years where Mary praised him and showed him this love and respect she showed Sam. Fuck that.

All they had to do was give Mary one line in her scene with Dean, saying something like "you know I'm proud of you."  Hell, all she had to do was smile at him and maybe take his hand or touch his face to *show* affection (even if not spoken), but no.  She didn't even get to look at him.  

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Hell, all she had to do was smile at him and maybe take his hand or touch his face to *show* affection (even if not spoken), but no.  She didn't even get to look at him.  

She hasn't even shown him this much affection since she's been back. In fact I think that the most affection that we've seen Mary show Dean was during his memories in Dark Side of The Moon.

[ZennyKenny]

7 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I just realized there was another eff/u to Dean and Dean fans in this ep.  When Dean says that Jack killed Michael and Jack killed Nick, and Sam responds, "You almost seem bummed about it."

Right.  Screw you, Berens.

Yeah I didn't understand what that line was implying, and it seemed to come right out of left field.

[Katy M]

6 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

Yeah I didn't understand what that line was implying, and it seemed to come right out of left field.

I actually thought it was an acknowledgement to those of us who are sick of Jack (and sometimes Cas) doing everything and leaving Sam and dean sitting on the sidelines.

[ILoveReading]

22 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I actually thought it was an acknowledgement to those of us who are sick of Jack (and sometimes Cas) doing everything and leaving Sam and dean sitting on the sidelines. 

This is why I find the writers, untalented and unprofessional.  Even if that was a swipe at fans who are tired of Jack, it comes across as Sam thinking that Dean was upset Michael and Lucifer were dead.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This is why I find the writers, untalented and unprofessional.  Even if that was a swipe at fans who are tired of Jack, it comes across as Sam thinking that Dean was upset Michael and Lucifer were dead.

No, I thought Sam was saying that Dean was annoyed he didn't get to do it himself.  That's the way it came across to me, anyway.

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, Katy M said:

No, I thought Sam was saying that Dean was annoyed he didn't get to do it himself.  That's the way it came across to me, anyway.

That was my feeling also, and I don't necessarily blame Dean for feeling that, at least a little. Yeah, I'm glad he's dead, but I would've like to be the one to make him pay. Wouldn't have blamed Sam if he said he'd have liked to be the one to shank Luci, either. That's a normal human emotion, IMO. Frankly, I raise my eyebrows more at Sam having any sympathy for Nickifer or the way he was killed.

[SueB]

Got a proper rewatch in. SO MUCH to talk about.  Skim the topics or skip to TL;DR Bottom Line if you don't want to read it all. 

Overall: This was a rich tapestry of an episode.  So many different threads to pull out and examine!  The characterization, plot, themes, and atmosphere was really outstanding.  There was a lot of craftsmanship on display from everyone (writer, director, cast, set design, music, SFx, VFx, props, etc...).  

Pacing: This was a rollercoaster with two climaxes.  And also stuffed in flashbacks at appropriate times to reflect the stakes for each character. The first climax was OG TFW (that's Sam, Dean & Cas) confirming that Mary is dead.  It was a slow buildup of an over-filled kettle coming to boil.  The first words by Sam and Dean were a call out looking for "Mom!".  The ominous music starts when her phone rings in the bunker and Sam & Dean go into 'action mode'.  They are still trying to rationalize but they've been down this road before and they know where it ends.  Right from the jump, Sam and Dean had worst case scenario on their mind.  Dean was on a hair trigger. In the cabin when it all comes together, his shouting at Cas is like when the overfull kettle starts to spit a bit.  And when Rowena gave them the bad new, Dean's breaking of the chair was almost a relief.  The kettle has gone off.  But no time for grief or recriminations. We are immeidately on pace to the second climax: can we successfully resurrect Mary.  This one is a race between unstable Jack and the boys.  Both are trying for the same thing. But the boys don't want any more damage by Jack and they are afraid what will happen.  Jack stalls for time by cutting off the Impala engine.  The overhead shot as the boys race across the snowscape to get to Jack.  Big light show, lots of power... and it's a bust.  Mary's body is there but no Mary.  And Jack is in the wind again. Excellent combination of directing, writing, acting, music.  The entire effort to find out Mary is dead, try the resurrection, and say goodbye (with one exception -- see below*) is complete in 44 mins.  And it all hung together because the show trusted the audience to understand the characters.

Grief, Interrupted: From the first mention of Jack going 'Kavorikian' on Felix, Sam and Dean already KNEW Mary was likely dead at the hands of Jack.  But none of them say it out loud. Dean cuts off anyone speculating.  And he’s annoyed about the snake.  Not because he doesn’t get it (“Kevorikian”, “Dahlmer”, etc)  but because it’s just too horrific to entertain.  And Jensen Ackles delivers this denial-by-annoyance so effortlessly.  Muttering loud enough for Sam to get the message – ‘stop talking about the snake! Mom cannot be the snake (dead) so stop talking about the snake!’ But both knew. Dean hung up the phone on Cas because he couldn't listen to anymore.  Sam when Dean relayed the story Cas told him. Using the 5 stages of grieving, OG TFW is in faux denial. Dean hangs out in anger for quite some time. Sam leapfrogs to depression for a bit.  Cas is heavy into depression. Then they go straight to bargaining (we'll get her back).  But Dean's still clinging to some anger, Sam to depression. When it all fails and Cas comes back to report Mary is in soulmate Heaven with John, all three land briefly in acceptance to go through the hunter's funeral.  But their grieving is not remotely over.  However, it IS going to be interrupted until they find Jack.  They've got a toddler with a nuclear weapon out in the world.  Resolving that will give them time to distance from this unbearable pain right now.

Who is to blame? Noone? Everyone? At each step in this tragedy every member of OG TFW was on the alert for trouble. Fought for family. Gave it their all.  No one made anyone false promises or encouraged people to ignore warning signs.  Jack was well educated.  He got himself into this mess trying to save his family. That's what he was taught by his family.  So my answer is 'noone'. It's a tragedy. That doesn't stop each of them from feeling overwhelming guilt.  So then why is Dean taking it out on Cas? That's the real question here IMO.  Dean actually knows better. And as I said earlier, as soon as Sam starts to blame himself (pretty spot on, IMO, on areas where he had argued for Jack), Dean openly admits he had warning signs too.  But Dean is still pissed at Cas more than Sam right now.  Maybe it's as simple as coping mechanism (and he can't bring himself to be mad at Sam who just lost his mother as well).  Maybe it's because Cas represents Heaven and the supernatural.  But I have no doubt that this will be resolved.  And Cas has Sam to support him until Dean works out what he needs to.  Personally I suspect Dean wants to be mostly mad at himself for letting his guard down a bit with regards to Mary.  He was at peace with her hunting and the way their relationship was at.  All of these were good things.  And he knows that too.  But there may be more we will hear eventually.

*Dean's simple Mary memory:  Watching again, I see plenty of places where they could have trimmed elsewhere to give a bigger Dean/Mary memory moment.  I do think THIS was the part that got cut due to his Mardis Gras commitment.  The entire script was Sam & Dean side by side the entire rollercoaster ride. There was no natural breaking point.  But it would take no time at all to have a no-dialog car scene (at the studio, not on location).  Now it's possible we'll get a more detailed flashback later.  But in the grind of 8 days, they had to cut out 3 days of Jensen coverage (I did the math in the spoiler thread) and you can barely tell.  I'm okay with their choice because Dean and Mary got a wee goodbye when he was preparing to go into the Malok box.  Again, they may revisit later. They have 21 more episodes to go. 

Out out damned spot! Not since Lady MacBeth have we seen the decent into madness like we got with Jack.  I could see parts of Sam, Dean, and Cas in his actions and reasoning.  And Rowena watching him was perfect.  She's a survivor.  I'm sad to say he knows he failed his three Dads so badly that his inner voice is none of them because he can't even think about them until he fixes it. So instead turns to his most hateful side - Lucifer. And I'm really questioning whether or not he HAS lost his soul.  Because that's a heckuva lot more guilt that soulless would offer.  And perhaps that's why he's so panicked.  Because he was warned and warned and warned.  And he thought he had it out of control.  But now he's ruined everything.  And the cold hard truth is he can't see a way out. I think he's more worried about them saying they don't love him than them killing him. That's a fate worse than death.  And he's convinced he's done the one thing that will cause them to not love him -- kill Mary.  But he's wrong.  That's the sad part.  None of OG TFW is blaming Jack.  They are too busy blaming themselves.  They think Jack is like a dog that's gone rabid - they love him but they have to put him down.  

Some quick shoutouts:
- Music was on point the entire episode. Effective use of silence as well.
- Rowena's house - I want to EXPLORE all those prop details.
- Rowena was already looking up the spell for necromancy before Jack got there.  She knows the boys.  And she's there for them. I freakin' LOVE THAT.  
- Nick just laying there, stinking up the corner. Good job to the director for including that shot.
- Jack's magic & power at the end. Impressive lightshow.  Worth a second look IMO.
- The dark cabin for the first reveal (she's dead). The stark bright for the final reveal (she can't be brought back). 
- I'm glad they wasted zero time on the morality of bringing Mary back.  We've had that conversation enough. This was Mom.  This was a family tragedy based on a supernatural mistake. Trying resurrection was never in doubt IMO. And Duma's little scoff was well earned.  Winchester DO know how to cheat death and have practiced it a great deal for one of their own. They know they shouldn't treat death as so reversible.  But it's MOM.  They couldn't just let go anymore than they could force themselves to stop breathing.  I think there might have been a debate if it was death by a standard hunt or stupid car accident.  Then resurrection is defying the natural order. But this was a nephilim temper tantrum.  They felt immediately justified.

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  I found this to be a deftly woven story about grieving, and consequences, and tragedy. I believe the show craftsmens (writers, directors, actors, musicians, props... ) made a beautiful episode that covered complex themes in a nuanced manner. 

Edited April 15, 2019 by SueB
bolding for the skimmers

[SueB]

Okay, I need detailed BTS pics of Rowena's place. It looks like an older house (fireplace, stained glass windows).  And I love the comfy feel (not that thrilled about the explosion of patterns on the carpet and wall .... but I'm pretty unadventurous in my decorating). 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Not since Lady MacBeth have we seen the decent into madness like we got with Jack. 

Supernatural as Shakespeare? That is a wee bit of hyperbole, yes?

I won't say it hasn't had its moments of sheer brilliance, but not with this regime, and certainly not with the Nougat Baby's arc.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Supernatural as Shakespeare? That is a wee bit of hyperbole, yes?

I won't say it hasn't had its moments of sheer brilliance, but not with this regime, and certainly not with the Nougat Baby's arc.

Nah.. I wasn't saying it was Shakespeare, just that Jack had a Lady MacBeth moment.  She went insane with guilt, he went insane with guilt.  Just analogy, OTOH, while it's not Shakespeare, I think Jack's arc was pretty good from a character perspective.  I've always seen him as an amalgam of Sam/Dean/Cas.  I hate to see him lose his mind under such tragic circumstances.

[Castiels Cat]

Before he blasts Mary, Jack hears a buzz sound and ranks up his screaming to leave him alone. Cas hears the same sound when he tries to contact Naomi. I seem to recall Jack losing it in season 13 the first time he hests Angel radio too.

I think perhaps Naomi became aware of his unstable nd immense power when he began using them and tried to contact him on behalf of heaven with unfortunate timing for Mary.

Jack would be aware if another angel had done the blast.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/15/2019 at 9:09 AM, Katy M said:

No, I thought Sam was saying that Dean was annoyed he didn't get to do it himself.  That's the way it came across to me, anyway.

I thought it was implying that Dean knew things were too good to be true... he was waiting for the other shoe to droo...  and it did.

[juppschmitz]

So, apparently in Absence Dean's first instinct was to try and bring Mary back.

That really annoys me. After everything they've seen and done, with everything they know about the "natural order of things" Dean should NOT have even thought of doing that. As a matter of fact, I would have been so proud of him if he'd put his foot down and stopped everyone else from trying.

There's only one explanation that makes sense to me:

In my head canon he's probably felt guilty even as a kid for "saving" Sammy, but not being able to save Mary, too.

Now Mary coming back into Dean's life was explicitly Amara's gift to Dean. Not Sam and Dean, not Sam and Dean and Cas, no, just DEAN.

So he would feel responsible for her well-being, right? (He would in any case, but even more seeing as he's the reason why she had to leave her happy, happy heaven.)

When he assumed Mary was dead in the AU world, he held out for a long time not looking for her. (And yes, I was proud of him then.) Then, when she turned out to be alive and well over in apocaworld he probably felt like he failed her for leaving her there for so long.

And now, as she's dead for real, of course he feels like failing her yet again UNLESS he tries his damndest to try and bring her back again.

Well, this is my explanation, and I'm sticking with it.

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

So, apparently in Absence Dean's first instinct was to try and bring Mary back.

This is yet another way Jack changed the show for the worse.

Before they made a deal to bring Jack back, Sam and Dean only ever tried to make deals/arrangments to bring each other back.  IMO, it wasn't because of this can't live without you it seemed more about their warped and twisted psyches.  Sam out of a misplaced sense of guilt and Dean's having the prime directive drilled into him since he was four.

Sure Dean might have asked for Cas back or wanted Bobby and or his dad or Kevin back but he never actually went through with any rituals.  But since them making a deal to get Jack back that seems to be norm now.

The only exceptions I can really think of is when Gadeel healed Cas and Charlie.  But IIRC, it was Gadreels choice for Cas (i could be wrong about that) but even then I don't' really see that as a deal because Gadreel was on hand.

11 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

After everything they've seen and done, with everything they know about the "natural order of things"

Is there even a natural order anymore? This is not me being snarky.  Everyone and their mother brings people back now.  God has bought Cas back repeatedly.  Death has made exception after exception for Dean and Deans' requests.  Death, the concept and the character, has become such a joke now, and there really seems to be no consequences anymore. 

Example- those non existent "cosmic consequences" after Cas killed Billie and Sam and Dean reneged after their deal.  From the sounds of it Dabb didn't even know the consequences of Cas deal to bring Jack back existed.  

So why shouldn't they try to bring people back. 

Edited April 17, 2019 by ILoveReading

[juppschmitz]

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is yet another way Jack changed the show for the worse.

Before they made a deal to bring Jack back, Sam and Dean only ever tried to make deals/arrangments to bring each other back.  IMO, it wasn't because of this can't live without you it seemed more about their warped and twisted psyches.  Sam out of a misplaced sense of guilt and Dean's having the prime directive drilled into him since he was four.

Sure Dean might have asked for Cas back or wanted Bobby and or his dad or Kevin back but he never actually went through with any rituals.  But since them making a deal to get Jack back that seems to be norm now.

The only exceptions I can really think of is when Gadeel healed Cas and Charlie.  But IIRC, it was Gadreels choice for Cas (i could be wrong about that) but even then I don't' really see that as a deal because Gadreel was on hand.

Is there even a natural order anymore? This is not me being snarky.  Everyone and their mother brings people back now.  God has bought Cas back repeatedly.  Death has made exception after exception for Dean and Deans' requests.  Death, the concept and the character, has become such a joke now, and there really seems to be no consequences anymore. 

Example- those non existent "cosmic consequences" after Cas killed Billie and Sam and Dean reneged after their deal.  From the sounds of it Dabb didn't even know the consequences of Cas deal to bring Jack back existed.  

So why shouldn't they try to bring people back. 

They should just put Rowena's spell thingy in everyone...

🙄🙄🙄

[FlickChick]

Well, let's face it, death has been a joke on this show since S2 when two deals were made - one by John and one by Dean. At least with the crossroads deals, there were consequences - your soul went to hell. Rowena's "magic immortality" is a joke too. My Lord, she came back from a burned body fully intact and as young and attractive as before!!! This is why I originally thought that they would bring back Mary in this episode and the "Absence" would be temporary. Dabb has turned this show into even more of a joke with Gabriel's resurrection, so-called "Nick" who shouldn't even be alive in any manner, and Jack's super resurrection via Cas and Lily Saunder. I'm sure there are more that I can't remember right now. Obviously, Sam and Dean would always have to "come back", in order for the show to continue. But there's no reason to have everyone and their brother come back time and again. Just unimaginative writers and a showrunner who doesn't give a damn about canon or anything else, it seems.

[gonzosgirrl]

Nobody wanted Mary dead and gone more than me, but I think it makes total sense that Dean's first instinct was to bring her back. First of all, unlike Jack, she actually is a Winchester. Secondly, he already had to watch her die once in his lifetime. And as for cosmic consequences - well it was the ultimate cosmic consequence, aka Amara,  that resurrected Mary in the first place. So why shouldn't he think it'd be okay to bring her back again? 

Personally,  I wish she'd have just run off with the milkman,  never to be heard from again. That would have been more in line with her character. This way she'll be Saint Mary forever more. 

[ILoveReading]

45 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Personally,  I wish she'd have just run off with the milkman,  never to be heard from again. That would have been more in line with her character. This way she'll be Saint Mary forever more. 

I think this is what bothers me about Mary's intials being on the table.  I don't really care to much about it changing an iconic image because I haven't believed in the bro bond for years, but that they don't feel earned.  Mary repeatedly choose everyone and everything over her sons.  She issued platitudes towards Sam and for Dean, Jensen was prophetic when he said she'd just be someone else to take care of.  Mary never took time to get to know or try to develop a relationship with either of her sons.

The writers finally stopped being tone deaf but they went in the opposite direction and wrote a relationship that didn't' feel earned. 

So Mary didn't deserve her initials on the table because she never really wanted to be there. 

At least if Cas had his name there I could understand, becuae he's been with the Winchester through thick and thin.

Mary not so much. 

[SueB]

Resurrecting Mary did not violate the natural order IMO because:
- She was already outside the natural order
- A supernatural entity that was outside the natural order killed her

Now what Jack DID (the Magice Necromantiorum*) -- yeah, that's not good.  That's playing with dead things.  Not the same as a resurrection IMO.  

We don't know that Sam/Dean/Cas would have gone for that spell if they knew it was Necromancy. 

*It's a made-up word but roughly 'dead body activity element'. There's no soul there.  There's no life there. 

Edited April 18, 2019 by SueB

[Lastcall]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I think this is what bothers me about Mary's intials being on the table.  I don't really care to much about it changing an iconic image because I haven't believed in the bro bond for years, but that they don't feel earned.  Mary repeatedly choose everyone and everything over her sons.  She issued platitudes towards Sam and for Dean, Jensen was prophetic when he said she'd just be someone else to take care of.  Mary never took time to get to know or try to develop a relationship with either of her sons.

The writers finally stopped being tone deaf but they went in the opposite direction and wrote a relationship that didn't' feel earned. 

So Mary didn't deserve her initials on the table because she never really wanted to be there. 

At least if Cas had his name there I could understand, becuae he's been with the Winchester through thick and thin.

Mary not so much. 

The initials don’t bother me for a variety of reasons. Weird thing was I had such little investment in the character that it didn’t even register Mary Winchester. I was actually confused for a minute and for some reason thought the M stood for Misha which made no sense. 

Anyway, after that senior moment, I was so relieved that Mary was gone that it never occurred to me that anyone would be upset about it. I totally believe it was a Berens FU but I doubt he got the satisfaction he was looking for. Besides, this is Mary we are talking about, there’s a good chance she carved it herself out of spite. Even then, I did notice that her initials were as far away from Deans as possible...classic Mary Winchester.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Lastcall

[sarthaz]

Finally got around to this and basically had no emotional response.

If Jack is missing so much soul, why did he give so many damns about killing Mary?

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

If Jack is missing so much soul, why did he give so many damns about killing Mary?

Because Dabb.

[SueB]

"Absence" certainly undermined the "Jack is completely soulless" theory.  He wouldn't have 'cracked' and started having Hellucinations if he didn't give a shit. 

Which could mean:
1) A soul is not the only source of moral consciousness that a Nephilim has.  Cas theoretically has grace but not a soul and he gives a shit.  
2) Like mentioned above, Jack needed both soul and grace to hold together and he cracked because he's out of balance (see Rowena's warning earlier this year).
3) Sister Jo was not a reliable narrator and Jack still HAS a bit of soul -- and it's f*cked up by killing Mary. Also implies that his sliver of soul wasn't enough to save Felix The Snake but would be enough to cause a meltdown post killing Mary.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

"Absence" certainly undermined the "Jack is completely soulless" theory.  He wouldn't have 'cracked' and started having Hellucinations if he didn't give a shit. 

Which could mean:
1) A soul is not the only source of moral consciousness that a Nephilim has.  Cas theoretically has grace but not a soul and he gives a shit.  
2) Like mentioned above, Jack needed both soul and grace to hold together and he cracked because he's out of balance (see Rowena's warning earlier this year).
3) Sister Jo was not a reliable narrator and Jack still HAS a bit of soul -- and it's f*cked up by killing Mary. Also implies that his sliver of soul wasn't enough to save Felix The Snake but would be enough to cause a meltdown post killing Mary.

Or 4)  This was written by a crew that has no concept of canon or continuity and no clue how previous writers showed soulless...and doesn't care.

Edited April 18, 2019 by ahrtee

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Or 4)  This was written by a crew that has no concept of canon or continuity and no clue how previous writers showed soulless...and doesn't care.

My money is on this theory.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Or 4)  This was written by a crew that has no concept of canon or continuity and no clue how previous writers showed soulless...and doesn't care.

41 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

My money is on this theory.

Yup. Mr. Rogers took care of that.

[Bergamot]

7 hours ago, sarthaz said:

Finally got around to this and basically had no emotional response.

If Jack is missing so much soul, why did he give so many damns about killing Mary?

The next episode may clarify things as far as what is going on with Jack. (Or it might just show what others have said and what I also suspect, which is basically that the writers really haven't thought it through.)

We saw Jack come close to murdering an innocent once before (and this had nothing to do with the state of his soul.) It was when he attacked the convenience store clerk that he thought was responsible for what happened to Maggie. If Dean hadn't shot him, he might have killed that kid. Tellingly, I think, Jack was not remorseful afterwards, but instead was just shocked and baffled by Dean's action. 

For myself, I don't see Jack as suffering from guilt at Mary's death in the sense that a human being might feel it after killing someone. Not because of the loss of his soul, or partial loss, or whatever it is. (The whole soul rigamarole with Jack seems pointless to me.) But because whether he has a soul or not, he is not human.

From the beginning, Jack has known what was good and what was bad not from any internal compass, such as a conscience or a soul, but from measuring himself against Dean and Sam and Cas. For whatever reason, he is attached to them and wants them to like him, so he tries to act in a way that will gain their approval. He even admitted once that he really didn't feel things as a human being would, so he was always trying to mimic the reactions and feelings of those around him.

Jack was definitely feeling very strong emotions in this episode, so his emotions are obviously not dependent on him having a soul. But I didn't see any grief for Mary, any remorse or sadness for her losing her life, or really any guilt in the way that a human murderer might feel it afterwards and see blood on his hands.

Jack's feelings centered on the fact that he was afraid that Dean and Sam and Cas were going to find out what he did, and turn against him. He needs them and doesn't want to lose their affection, and he was terrified that this was going to happen and would have done anything to prevent it.

But I still don't think he understands why he would deserve this fate. Jack killed Mary. It was not premeditated, but it also was not an accident, like the first time he killed someone. He admitted to Rowena that for one moment, for "one second", he had the thought that he just wanted Mary "gone". He was like someone with his finger on the trigger of a gun, losing his temper and pulling it. Maybe it was just one second of losing control, but it was still causing someone's death. I guess in a legal sense it would be manslaughter rather than murder, but it was still his actions, his choice, that caused Mary's death.

But Jack still doesn't understand this. He doesn't feel guilty -- he feels scared, angry, and increasingly resentful, and also I think he feels that it is unfair that he be blamed for what happened to Mary, or that he should have to pay for it. After all, it was just an accident, wasn't it? He doesn't understand that whether or not you are the most powerful being in the world, you can't act out whatever you happen to feel.

Jack does still care what his friends think of him. Last time Dean had to shoot him to get his attention, but I wonder if there is any way to get through to Jack this time.

[sarthaz]

16 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I wonder if there is any way to get through to Jack this time.

Tell him the truth: that he's not a Winchester.

[Res]

9 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Tell him the truth: that he's not a Winchester.

And never will be.

[bettername2come]

Gonna pop away from the Mary thoughts and feelings to say:

1) That location they used where Mary died had fantastic sunlight. I thought it made Samantha Smith look very pretty in her last scene at the end of the last ep (insert joke about showing Mary in a positive light) and loved the way the light reflected off Rowena's hair. 

2) Someone was clearly having fun filming the funeral pyre scene with the crane shot. That was filmed as way more epic than it needed to be.

[Bali]

On ‎4‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 9:36 PM, Bergamot said:

Yes. I was rolling my eyes at all those tender flashbacks of moments with Mary, showing how wonderful she was. Moments that we never saw until they decided to kill off the character. Sorry, show, it's too late to try with the character.

Also disliked the gooey sentimentality of the writing in this episode in general, and the way every emotional moment stretched out unbearably. For me sentimentality is trying to buy feelings without being willing to pay a fair price for them, and that's what I felt they were doing. My emotions are not so cheaply bought, and I am not sad that Mary is gone. I sincerely hope that they never bring her back.

LOL, tennisgurl! That's a good description! I am so, so sick of Mark Pellegrino, but we just can't get rid of him.

Odd: I felt an uncontrollable need to hit the ff button during the tender flashback scenes. 

Overall- this was supposed to be an emotional grip on my stomach. But in reality- it was a huge miss! If it had been Rowena- I might have cared more. Because you know, she's sort of evil sometimes, but even she has showed that she cares more about the Winchester Boys than Mother Mary. 

And again- please make Nickifer GO AWAY!!!!!!!!

[Bali]

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 11:19 AM, ILoveReading said:

There is no canon anymore.  That means nothing. 

If Jack did bring someone back then I think its obvious who he brought back.   Not a spoiler just based on how the writers are bending over backwards to keep him around.

I disagree. There is a cannon now. Only now, canon means the big heavy iron thing into which you put heavier iron balls in order to shoot holes through the plot. The writers seem to be using these canon quite proliferously. 

[The Companion]

On 4/11/2019 at 8:36 PM, Bergamot said:

Yes. I was rolling my eyes at all those tender flashbacks of moments with Mary, showing how wonderful she was. Moments that we never saw until they decided to kill off the character. Sorry, show, it's too late to try with the character.

Also disliked the gooey sentimentality of the writing in this episode in general, and the way every emotional moment stretched out unbearably. For me sentimentality is trying to buy feelings without being willing to pay a fair price for them, and that's what I felt they were doing. My emotions are not so cheaply bought, and I am not sad that Mary is gone. I sincerely hope that they never bring her back.

It was so painful to watch them try to retcon these scenes into the show. They rang hollow out of context. All I could think was that Jack's attempt to bring back Mary and bringing back a shell was an apt metaphor for the writers' attempt to revive her character. 😆😥

On 4/12/2019 at 12:38 AM, catrox14 said:

I never liked Mary and for all the complaints about Mary being fridged in the pilot (I don't think she was) she sure seems to have been fridged again for Jack's story.

 

I can't argue with this.  

This episode was just not compelling tv for me. You can't throw in a bunch of scenes at the end to establish a relationship you never built. It's cheap. 

At least Rowena was awesome 

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

All I could think was that Jack's attempt to bring back Mary and bringing back a shell was an apt metaphor for the writers' attempt to revive her character. 😆😥

So very true. I absolutely hated what they did to Mary in the name of badass hunter, independent woman with a mind of her own. Then with this episode, they try to make her Mother of the Year. The writers should have left her happy in Heaven with John and her young boys.

[The Companion]

17 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

So very true. I absolutely hated what they did to Mary in the name of badass hunter, independent woman with a mind of her own. Then with this episode, they try to make her Mother of the Year. The writers should have left her happy in Heaven with John and her young boys.

They absolutely did not know what to do with her. It was a complete waste. Then, presumably realizing that the fans were understandably underwhelmed by her story, they try to retcon her into something else. I found myself getting increasingly irritated by the scenes that were meant to show she was actually there and supportive the whole time, and as I said in the last episode, their last minute attempts to show growth were jarring enough for me to wonder if she was either possessed or committing suicide.