S14.E17: Game Night

[trudysmom]

3 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Plus who's to say that he can't bring her back to life anyway now that he's got Michael's archangel grace.

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of.  Death means nothing on this show, and Jack cares, or cared about what Sam and Dean think of him so if he did kill her, he'd just bring her back so they wouldn't be mad at him.  Of course,  then she'd tell on  him and they'd still be pissed, at least a bit, so poor woobie can't win.  Mean old Dean might yell at him, Sam might look disappointed for a hot minute.  Mother Mary would be all forgiving, of course.

After a painful rewatch (Dean was still in it, after all) I'm still frustrated with Sam not taking Nick out when he had the chance. And when Dean wouldn't let Sam get to him in the bunker because they needed him alive until they found Donatello, wth?  Sam, who is boy genius, computer hacker.  He figured out who what where when and how in 13: 11 when Donna's niece was missing.  He cracked this complicated computer dark web thing. But he couldn't hack the phone  or something? 

I wish if the writers are going to inflict Nick on us, they would show us something interesting.  Like where/how did he get the grace and know to use it on Donatello? 

[Lunula]

On 4/4/2019 at 9:45 PM, SueB said:

Mary- you’re smarter than this. LIE.   Now you are dead (my guess). I did love she and Dean’s bonding time.  And she and Sam as well.  Which is why I think she’s dead.

THIS. Seriously, Mary? All of you are questioning Jack's soul vs. soulless state and yet you cannot just bite your tongue and bring it up to the team later? You just see this kid light someone up (even though I don't have much issue with it) and it alarmed you, you're scared of him, yet you feel the need to tell him in - in that moment - that there is something wrong with him and you have to go tell everyone? What logical reason is there to do that? Did you think Jack would go, "Oh, yeah - you're right. I'm really sorry, I'll never do it again!" So.Illogical.

And why on earth would Sam & Dean ride around in a car with Nick sitting behind them so they can't see anything he's doing? The entire time I was saying, "Why is he back there? He's going to get free. He's going to choke one of them from behind. What if he has a knife?" Sam & Dean are the most savvy hunters on the planet, yet somehow sniveling little Nick beats Sam to death? Not to mention another fake death at this point in the show is beyond ridiculous. I find it disrespectful to the fans (and to Jared) who've stuck it out for 14 years and are facing the end in one more season. It...cheapens...the show and its legacy. 

Please let this be the real end of Nick and Lucifer. If Mary did die (I don't think she did) then let that be the end of her, too. 

I continue to have issues with angel (and demon) powers that seem to come and go with no logical explanation. I will never understand fist fights between humans and angels/demons. 

[Katy M]

53 minutes ago, Lunula said:

I continue to have issues with angel (and demon) powers that seem to come and go with no logical explanation. I will never understand fist fights between humans and angels/demons. 

Thank you.  We know for a fact that demons can wave their hand and break someone's neck.  Yet, Sam and Dean always seem to inspire them to getting into a fistfight that they lose.  Makes zero sense.  Makes even less sense with angels. I realize that they're not at their full capacity, but Dean hurt his hand and Cas didn't even react the first time he punched him.

But, to be fair to Mary (I probably would have lied because I'm a scaredy-cat with no morals) she was thinking of Jack as a 2 year old having a tantrum that she could reason with. And she thought that Jack cared about her enough not to hurt her.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Lunula said:

Not to mention another fake death at this point in the show is beyond ridiculous. I find it disrespectful to the fans (and to Jared) who've stuck it out for 14 years and are facing the end in one more season. It...cheapens...the show and its legacy. 

responding in the writers thread

[Castiels Cat]

15 hours ago, trudysmom said:

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of.  Death means nothing on this show, and Jack cares, or cared about what Sam and Dean think of him so if he did kill her, he'd just bring her back so they wouldn't be mad at him.  Of course,  then she'd tell on  him and they'd still be pissed, at least a bit, so poor woobie can't win.  Mean old Dean might yell at him, Sam might look disappointed for a hot minute.  Mother Mary would be all forgiving, of course.

After a painful rewatch (Dean was still in it, after all) I'm still frustrated with Sam not taking Nick out when he had the chance. And when Dean wouldn't let Sam get to him in the bunker because they needed him alive until they found Donatello, wth?  Sam, who is boy genius, computer hacker.  He figured out who what where when and how in 13: 11 when Donna's niece was missing.  He cracked this complicated computer dark web thing. But he couldn't hack the phone  or something? 

I wish if the writers are going to inflict Nick on us, they would show us something interesting.  Like where/how did he get the grace and know to use it on Donatello? 

Nick got the grace from demons loyal to Lucifer who have been hiding him and helping him.

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Nick got the grace from demons loyal to Lucifer who have been hiding him and helping him.

I actually really liked that the demons were working with Nick, because I think the only other time we saw demons this season was when Sam told them he was the boss and they all ran away with their tails between their legs.  If that was an act so that he would ignore them while they helped Nick and Lucifer, that is just so much better than having to take that at face value.

[catrox14]

Why would demons have angel Grace? I know that's what he said, but where did they get it? Was the dude that had Gabriel's grace? Was it grace that was leftover in Michael's monsters? Did Lucifer give his grace to demons before he got out Crowley's control? Why would these demons give it to Nick instead of summoning Lucifer themselves?

I'll tell you where he got it. From the writers' asses.

[Castiels Cat]

I have been offline for ages. Read through tons of comments.  Some initial thoughts in response to oft repeated comments...

Why Sam showed Nick mercy...

Sam was Lucifer's vessel for days and it nearly did him in despite having supernatural intervention and Dean's unconditional support. Nick was Lucifer's vessel for years without any kind of mojo or support system. Of course Sam cannot but help to feel some kind of empathy for how broken Nick is.

Why Mary was so horrified by Jack burning Nick... and why her soul would go to heaven and yet death by burning.

Mary was burned alive herself. It is a horrible way to die and extremely painful. 

Mary died by burning therefore her soul would go to heaven. Dying in a fire is not the same as salting and burning bones.

Why Death restoring Sam's soul is not the same as God restoring Jack's soul...

Sam's soul was trapped in a different location. Jack's soul has been used up and no longer exists. God needs to gather the dissipated energy and reform it from the ether.  

I was struck by the fact that everything that Jack emphatically stated as true in the "Then" was ever so wrong. It makes me think that he is wrong about Michael being dead. Yes I refuse to believe that the beautiful connection between AT and Nihilism with Dean's Books of Death was dropped. And Billie's dialogue really does not work with Cage Michael.

Also, I was struck by the end of Ouroboros appearing like another of Michael's traps. In Nihilism he is content to kill Jack once he has Dean. In Nihilism he tells Dean he will leave him as blood and bone if he vacates him. Yet he does neither in Ouroboros. He tortures Jack's 3 fathers in order to get Jack to fight him and seems to throw softballs at him. He wanted to possess Jack temporarily I think to get some nephilim juice so that when he returns to Dean he us truly invincible. That would be a finale twist  w

We know that door in Dean is always open. There is no reason not to kill Dean unless Michael needs him.

Michael has set traps multiple times is season 13 and 14 to fool and lure both Dean and Jack who remain mirrored heroes.

I think the faux Nick may be Michael. Lucifer is in the empty. The spell was to open the door to Nick. Angel radio should not be an option. 

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Why would demons have angel Grace? I know that's what he said, but where did they get it? Was the dude that had Gabriel's grace? Was it grace that was leftover in Michael's monsters? Did Lucifer give his grace to demons before he got out Crowley's control? Why would these demons give it to Nick instead of summoning Lucifer themselves?

I'll tell you where he got it. From the writers' asses.

Angel grace not archangel grace.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

38 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I actually really liked that the demons were working with Nick, because I think the only other time we saw demons this season was when Sam told them he was the boss and they all ran away with their tails between their legs.  If that was an act so that he would ignore them while they helped Nick and Lucifer, that is just so much better than having to take that at face value.

I think the demons have always had factions.  There were those that followed Lucifer and those that wanted a demon leader. The ones we saw in the beginning of the season were rogue demons that were looking for a leader now that Crowley was dead. The faux Crowley Mongol demon was trying to fill Crowley's shoes by making a deal with Sam.

[Katy M]

55 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why would demons have angel Grace? I know that's what he said, but where did they get it? Was the dude that had Gabriel's grace? Was it grace that was leftover in Michael's monsters? Did Lucifer give his grace to demons before he got out Crowley's control? Why would these demons give it to Nick instead of summoning Lucifer themselves?

I'll tell you where he got it. From the writers' asses.

Asmodeus hid some of Gabriel's and his followers snagged some.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Castiels Cat]

37 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Asmodeus hid some of Gabriel's and his followers snagged some.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

The Angel's fell. Angel's were everywhere. Crowley made it his business to gather blades. He tortured Samandriel. Whose to say he did not gather grace when he was in his own tablet hunt in season 8 of before he became a frenemy and Angel's were plentiful. 

Likewise Asmodeus had Cas on lockdown and probably removed his grace. He had the syringes on hand from Gabriel.

The closed caption said angel grace not archangel grace.

I found Nick to be a mumbler and had to rewatch that with close captioning myself.

If the captioning was incorrect then yes... obviously Asmodeus had a bunch on hand from Gabriel and he also held Lucifer captive for a time when he was weakened. It was his m.o. to have siphoned some off. No reason that there was grace on hand in storage. Both Crowley and Asmodeus were known to torture Angel's and hold them prisoner.

[Katy M]

53 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

The Angel's fell. Angel's were everywhere. Crowley made it his business to gather blades. He tortured Samandriel. Whose to say he did not gather grace when he was in his own tablet hunt in season 8 of before he became a frenemy and Angel's were plentiful. 

I see no reason why Asmodeus couldn't have squirreled away some of Gabe's.  Extraction by a demon that we already know to have been happening.

[catrox14]

It's still bad storytelling IMO when the audience is trying to fill in the the blanks on how they acquired it. We shouldn't have to head Canon the whole show!

[catrox14]

ETA I mean to me it's far more interesting to have them show us that grace is being siphoned from an angel or an angel decided to make a pact with a demon. Then we would be left thinking...h why are they doing it and what will it get them . I don't consider myself a lazy viewer so I don't need it spoon fed but some clear look at shenanigans sets up a better mystery MO YMMV

[Castiels Cat]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

ETA I mean to me it's far more interesting to have them show us that grace is being siphoned from an angel or an angel decided to make a pact with a demon. Then we would be left thinking...h why are they doing it and what will it get them . I don't consider myself a lazy viewer so I don't need it spoon fed but some clear look at shenanigans sets up a better mystery MO YMMV

It's like angel blades. At this point we know there are ways and means.

Lucifer's demonic minions wanting him back is enough backstory and nicely mirrors season 5.

To my eye they may be setting season 15 up to reprise the Apocalypse that we never got in season 5 to end the series.  I have thought this for some time (loads of red flags) however all of Nick's sad talk of being the perfect vessel yet coming across like a sad bum whilst Sam was acting kind of Season 4 angsty/vengeance at times... now understudy Nick is no more , Lucifer is still awake and Jack is rogue 

This season strongly parallels season 6 and Jack is the stand-in for Cas. He is so opening the door and letting Lucifer out just like he opened up Rowena and let Michael out and swallowed his grace and perhaps what tiny bit of what was left of Michael who may be restoring as we speak... only to hatch and kill Jack... and try Dean his perfect vessel for the third charmed time hopped up on nephilim grace.

That's what I think might be going on. And since Michael wants to kill God yes it is fitting they called him out.

I was not surprised by Ouroboros. I was expecting Jack to remove Michael from Dean because of the season 6 parallels and because of his constant whining "I want to help."  Also Jack's quest with Michael predated Dean's and Dean and Jack's epic heroic storylines have been pretty closely mirrored and they have pushed the father-son mentor-mentee relationship the most between those two characters. Jack really wants to prove himself to Dean and be like Dean.

Ouroboros also reintroduced the tragic hero arc Greek style by way of Perseus so it was about time for Jack to do the big reckless roh ruh Winchester save maneuver that would end tragically and so very badly.

I would be gobsmacked if they really and truly just got rid of Michael and Dean's books, Dean's fate like this. I would argue that most of the list of Deans dropped storylines were never meant to be fully realized storylines including the first Michael arc. Angel's were introduced in season 4 as an afterthought. Sam was always the hero of seasons 1-5 according to Kripke.

This time I will be really angry if they just decided to throw the storyline out. I do not think that is the case. I think Jack helping Dean was telegraphed in advance. I think Michael staging that fight at the end was telegraphed. I think the fact Michael left Dean alive is telling. I think Michael shed his skin like the snake. 

[Casseiopeia]

14 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I would be gobsmacked if they really and truly just got rid of Michael and Dean's books, Dean's fate like this.

Billie told Dean if he didn't throw himself and Michael into the ocean the world and the universe would end violently. Well Dean didn't do that and now AU Michael (in the form of his grace) was released into RW.  Alternate Worlds collided, so my guess is that Jack is going to destroy all existence.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Casseiopeia

[Castiels Cat]

21 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Billie told Dean if he didn't throw himself and Michael into the ocean the world and the universe would end violently. Well Dean didn't do that and now AU Michael (in the form of his grace) was released into RW.  Alternate Worlds collided, so my guess is that Jack is going to destroy all existence.

Billie gave him a book with his death. We were not shown the road to his death. All she said was the archangel Michael escaped your head... (acconplished) and uses yiur vessel to burn down this world. 

We do not know what the archangel Michael did in between escaping Dean's head and burning down this world.

Also the books are Dean's deaths Not his lives. All Dean knows is the one way guaranteed to prevent that from happening.

His fates were rewritten presumably between season 13's AT and Nihilism by the act of jumping between worlds which was a big fate messing action. Since that has not happened again I would say that this is still in the books as his fate... eventually. A lot other stuff can happen before that. As we have seen Michael has set things up so that he is an open door. Michael may have decided on a power up with nephilim juice because Dean was just too much trouble. Unfortunately he is the best suit, the perfect suit.

I personally do not think having Jack do what he did was a sudden change of mind. Jack has been saying I want to help... I can help with alarming frequency and the boy needed a gold coin fast as well as a big bad fall from grace himself. The parallels to season 6 already identified him as the Cas mirror. He was destined to mess with somebody's head and that was going to be Dean. I was expecting it to be in the finale of course. Having it be this early was a shocker. For me it made the season very interesting.

Just because Jack said Michael is dead does not mean Michael is dead. Every pronouncement Jack has made recently per the THEN has been wrong.  Michael may be wounded, hiding and laying in wait. 

Michael has a history of setting traps. I think Ouroboros is too elegant an episode to have such a crap thing jammed in. 

If they just abruptly ended that storyline that was the most egregious thing the show has ever done. Not after that thing it to Dean's storyline and fate. Grrrr.

Jack is really not so bright and he is very messed up. We saw that he has to have both grace and soul or else he devolves. Having no grace caused his body to deconstruct. Having no soul appears to be affecting his wiring.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Michael may have decided on a power up with nephilim juice because Dean was just too much trouble. Unfortunately he is the best suit, the perfect suit

Except Michael is dead. There is nothing to suggest that NougatSue will be shown to be wrong on this point. He killed the snake when he was trying to be kind...and I see no reason (sadly) why he wouldn't have killed Michael which was his intention.

Edited April 8, 2019 by catrox14

[Castiels Cat]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except Michael is dead. There is nothing to suggest that NougatSue will be shown to be wrong on this point. He killed the snake when he was trying to be kind...and I see no reason (sadly) why he wouldn't have killed Michael which was his intention.

IDK. He was already not at 100% soul and he was not a full powered nephilim at the time. There was no reason for him to have been able to kill a full powered archangel which was why Michael was not afraid of him. why was Michael deliberately goading him to attack him why didn't Michael include him in his attacks with cas and the winchesters. The entire thing stank of a set-up just like the entire episode of The Spear was Micheal setting the Winchesters up We had already been told to beware of another monster springing up from the head of the dead one. 

Ouroboros was a multilayered episode, dense with meaning. I will be surprised if it is as simple as it seemed in that rushed ending.

Lucifer rising again means Apocalypse 3.0. This goes without saying. Jack is on the outs with the Winchesters and will be manipulated into using the spell himself to open the door. Apocalypse 3.0 needs its Michael.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[ILoveReading]

Michael is dead.  Jensen himself confirmed that.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Billie gave him a book with his death. We were not shown the road to his death. All she said was the archangel Michael escaped your head... (acconplished) and uses yiur vessel to burn down this world. 

We do not know what the archangel Michael did in between escaping Dean's head and burning down this world.

Also the books are Dean's deaths Not his lives. All Dean knows is the one way guaranteed to prevent that from happening.

His fates were rewritten presumably between season 13's AT and Nihilism by the act of jumping between worlds which was a big fate messing action. Since that has not happened again I would say that this is still in the books as his fate... eventually. A lot other stuff can happen before that. As we have seen Michael has set things up so that he is an open door. Michael may have decided on a power up with nephilim juice because Dean was just too much trouble. Unfortunately he is the best suit, the perfect suit.

I personally do not think having Jack do what he did was a sudden change of mind. Jack has been saying I want to help... I can help with alarming frequency and the boy needed a gold coin fast as well as a big bad fall from grace himself. The parallels to season 6 already identified him as the Cas mirror. He was destined to mess with somebody's head and that was going to be Dean. I was expecting it to be in the finale of course. Having it be this early was a shocker. For me it made the season very interesting.

Just because Jack said Michael is dead does not mean Michael is dead. Every pronouncement Jack has made recently per the THEN has been wrong.  Michael may be wounded, hiding and laying in wait. 

Michael has a history of setting traps. I think Ouroboros is too elegant an episode to have such a crap thing jammed in. 

If they just abruptly ended that storyline that was the most egregious thing the show has ever done. Not after that thing it to Dean's storyline and fate. Grrrr.

Jack is really not so bright and he is very messed up. We saw that he has to have both grace and soul or else he devolves. Having no grace caused his body to deconstruct. Having no soul appears to be affecting his wiring.

Won't Dean die then if it's Jack that burns down the world?

I think that Michael left Dean because he knew the plan...after all he was in Dean's head.  TFW had already bested him once so he escaped into Rowena and then Jack (who he wanted to team up with in the AU) so he wouldn't end up in the ocean forever.

16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Michael is dead.  Jensen himself confirmed that.

He did?  I must have missed that.

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

He did?  I must have missed that. 

In a Con panel.  He was talking about playing how he had just gotten the hang of playing him when they killed him off.

[Casseiopeia]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

In a Con panel.  He was talking about playing how he had just gotten the hang of playing him when they killed him off.

Oh right I remember that now.  So there goes my Michael theory....

[Castiels Cat]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

In a Con panel.  He was talking about playing how he had just gotten the hang of playing him when they killed him off.

Yes I saw that. . Could be an attempt not to give away the big twist. He seemed kind of funny about it imo. Jokey.

I don't feel it the way I felt Dean saying yes to Michael last season. It's just the entire fight sequence felt off just the way Michael leaving Dean felt off and the entire set up in the Spear felt off.  He has fooled jack before. Only Dean has proven to be his match.i would be surprised if this was not the finale twist. Michael needed nephilim grace to boost his power to control Dean and 3rd times the charm. It would be a devastating finale and would explain why Dean is not blood and bone as well as why Michael inexplicably didn't bother to incapacitate Jack.

There is no analysis to support this per se except the Monumental follow through of AT and Nihilism as well as the inevitable really bad payout that has to come from Dean's tragic, reckless decision to say yes to Michael to psychopathic murderous world burning Michael in order to save Sam and Jack and kill the Lucifer thorn in Sam's side. It was personal. That's a ton of literary baggage to toss.

And as I say I  think the writing was in place for Jack to take Dean's trauma and settle his score with Michael so that this was not a sudden course correction either. I was expecting it to happen although not quite that soon I must admit. They are deftly mining season 6 character arcs and themes despite foregoing the film noir.

Just what I think. If Lucifer is back then so will be Michael. I rewatched Nihilism's final scene after Rewatching Ouroboros and Billie's words just do not fit Cage Michael. 

Shrugs. The finale airs soon enough.

[ILoveReading]

30 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I don't feel it the way I felt Dean saying yes to Michael last season. It's just the entire fight sequence felt off just the way Michael leaving Dean felt off and the entire set up in the Spear felt off.  He has fooled jack before. Only Dean has proven to be his match.i would be surprised if this was not the finale twist. Michael needed nephilim grace to boost his power to control Dean and 3rd times the charm. It would be a devastating finale and would explain why Dean is not blood and bone as well as why Michael inexplicably didn't bother to incapacitate Jack.

I would actually love to see something like this, and it would fit..  I'll spoiler tag just incase its still a spoiler.

Spoiler

that Michael wasnt' idle in Deans' mind.    I don't really think that mean anythign other then Michael pounding on the door though.

I just have zero faith left in the writers.0

[Castiels Cat]

41 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I would actually love to see something like this, and it would fit..  I'll spoiler tag just incase its still a spoiler.

  Hide contents

that Michael wasnt' idle in Deans' mind.    I don't really think that mean anythign other then Michael pounding on the door though.

I just have zero faith left in the writers.0

There wasn't really anything he could do in Dean's mind other than fight to get out. 

He has already got his open door so he can slide back in whenever.

IDK. While I found the individual episodes in seasons 12-13 to be mostly weak I thought they did a two season set-up for Dean's tragic hero's arc that delved deep into his angst, psychology and backstory. I wrote about this last year for WFB. 

This season it took me a while to get a sense of what was going on admittedly however I thought there were several really strong individual episodes. And I personally found Michael to be the best big bad ever when played by Jensen in Nihilism. Thst scene between Michael and castiel was chilling. I have to say it's interesting for Chuck to be called now that a character has stated their purpose of killing him... another reason that Michael being dead seems odd to me.

It also felt to me like setting the pins up for the last time so the very sad announcement was not a surprise. Seriously how many Apocalypses can one show survive?

They definitely look to be setting up another classic L vs. M  showdown to me.  A lot of Apocalypse harbingers, Lucifer rising again, talk of perfect vessels, cas searching for God again. And I think they have mentioned that they saved the world one to many times lately. 

Mmm... are you sure you did or did you just delay it 10 years?

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Yes I saw that. . Could be an attempt not to give away the big twist. He seemed kind of funny about it imo. Jokey.

I don't feel it the way I felt Dean saying yes to Michael last season. It's just the entire fight sequence felt off just the way Michael leaving Dean felt off and the entire set up in the Spear felt off.  He has fooled jack before. Only Dean has proven to be his match.i would be surprised if this was not the finale twist. Michael needed nephilim grace to boost his power to control Dean and 3rd times the charm. It would be a devastating finale and would explain why Dean is not blood and bone as well as why Michael inexplicably didn't bother to incapacitate Jack.

There is no analysis to support this per se except the Monumental follow through of AT and Nihilism as well as the inevitable really bad payout that has to come from Dean's tragic, reckless decision to say yes to Michael to psychopathic murderous world burning Michael in order to save Sam and Jack and kill the Lucifer thorn in Sam's side. It was personal. That's a ton of literary baggage to toss.

And as I say I  think the writing was in place for Jack to take Dean's trauma and settle his score with Michael so that this was not a sudden course correction either. I was expecting it to happen although not quite that soon I must admit. They are deftly mining season 6 character arcs and themes despite foregoing the film noir.

Just what I think. If Lucifer is back then so will be Michael. I rewatched Nihilism's final scene after Rewatching Ouroboros and Billie's words just do not fit Cage Michael. 

Shrugs. The finale airs soon enough.

Not sure I think I should answer this in writers?  Kind of hard to figure out which threat but I'm gonna put it there.

[AwesomO4000]

On 4/6/2019 at 11:06 PM, BabySpinach said:

Dean's fight scene was a lovely, unexpected nugget of quality in what has undeniably become Nougatnatural.

But his effortless take-down of multiple demons, with even greater ease than he handled them in 9.11, was directly intercut with Sam getting his melon caved in by regular human Nick and hiding from him in the car like a scared child. That was just so bizarre; it felt like a deliberate statement on Sam's incompetence. If I were a Sam fan, I'd be fucking livid.

I would be if I wasn't just so worn down... but for me the writers have spent most of this season making Sam look incompetent for anything that doesn't fit into "nerd" territory (whether it's intentional or not, is another question altogether), so this, for me, wasn't really anything new. Making sure the plot goes as desired is much more important than making sure that Sam doesn't look like an incompetent rookie rather than a hunter who is supposed to have over a dozen years experience fighting scarier things than a middle-aged, human Nick.

On 4/6/2019 at 11:24 PM, ahrtee said:

I thought the fact that Dean beat those demons so easily, juxtaposed with Nick suggesting that Michael might have changed Dean might be the writers thinking they're being clever/subtle (because "real" Dean would never be able to win a fight, especially when Sam couldn't.) 

But that would then be implying that Dean wasn't entirely Dean anymore and that would seem to be contradictory to the Sam dying declaration of how human and self-sacrificing Dean is "You always put me first..."

I would think if they were going for a "something's wrong with Dean" angle, they wouldn't then put in something referring to how self-sacrificing Dean is fairly soon after that... If anything, if I got the timing right - with the horn honking signaling "Sam's in trouble" - I would more think that they were going for a Mama Bear adrenaline thing than a Dean couldn't possibly do it on his own, it must be Michael thing.

But Dean has had a few good fight scenes this season. It's not generally Dean I see the show as implying as incompetent in this area.

On 4/7/2019 at 2:43 AM, Aeryn13 said:

This was supposed to link back to Mary's words in how good a man Sam is so he obviously wouldn't strangle/bludgeon "poor Nick". It wasn't a statement on  Sam's abilities but his saintliness.

But for me, that wouldn't explain the incompetence they were showing. What, Sam couldn't choke Nick out without killing him if they didn't want Sam to kill him?*** There's plenty of leeway between killing someone and just letting them go... and Sam should be well-educated in those kinds of techniques. He was able to knock out two trained SWAT guys for example in "Nightshifter." I'm assuming he knows how to do so without killing.

I more agree with @Lady Calypso's and @ILoveReading's points on this one: it was just bad and the plot needed it to happen, respectively.

*** Though in my opinion, as ILoveRedaing said, Dabb hasn't hesitated in having Sam kill people if there's reason - like the British Men of Letters - and there was just as much reason to kill Nick - considering he murdered people and was going to raise Lucifer - as there was the BMoL.

[juppschmitz]

14 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

God needs to gather the dissipated energy and reform it from the ether.  

No, he doesn't. All he needs is a few strokes on the writers' keyboards.

Sorry to Doyle your Watson.

[NougatJack]

Mary is such a stupid woman. First, she wanted to spoil all the fun Jack had with Nick. Then she didn´t leave Jack alone when he obviously wanted to be alone for a while. If she´s dead, it´s her fault. But I don´t think she´s dead (Jack only wished to be alone, he didn´t want her dead). I hope she survived, not that I like her, but for the Winchester´s sake.

[Lunula]

16 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Michael is dead.  Jensen himself confirmed that.

Chuck also confirmed Gabriel was dead.

Just sayin'

[DeeDee79]

56 minutes ago, Lunula said:

Chuck also confirmed Gabriel was dead.

Just sayin'

Not the same IMO. I’m sure that Jensen’s info would be more accurate than that of a fictional character. 

[Lunula]

5 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Not the same IMO. I’m sure that Jensen’s info would be more accurate than that of a fictional character. 

I personally think Michael's dead also, and perhaps I should take this to the writers thread, but only pointing out we've seen similar retcon before if it suits a writer's fancy. 

[DeeDee79]

17 minutes ago, Lunula said:

I personally think Michael's dead also, and perhaps I should take this to the writers thread, but only pointing out we've seen similar retcon before if it suits a writer's fancy. 

I get that but Chuck was the writers mouthpiece for that particular episode while Jensen who was so excited about playing Michael to begin with is stating facts that he's been given as one of the leads. IMO it's not the same situation but I can see the basis for comparison.

[FlickChick]

On 4/7/2019 at 4:02 PM, OrigamiNightmare said:

What stuck out to you about the editing?

Sorry this took so long. I didn't like the multiple cuts during the boys' separate fights. To me it breaks up the flow of action and seems to make the actions choppy. Same with the Sam/Dean by the car scene interspersed with Mary/Jack. Just too much switching around for my taste. I think that some of it has always existed, but seems to me to be increasing. Obviously, it could be a director's choice, but I guess I blame the editor.

[tennisgurl]

I just have no clue why Jack killing Nick is such a bad thing. I mean, I guess its morally ambiguous to kill a person, but the Winchesters kill people pretty frequently in the course of fighting evil, so why is this so different? If anything, Nick is even MORE of a clear and present threat to the world than any random vampire or Man of Letters (both of whom they killed without blinking), this guy is the vessel of Lucifer, and even if they lock him up, Lucifer and his demon cronies can still get to him, and he will just keep trying to let Lucifer out. By killing him, you eliminate the threat of Lucifer, AND a human serial killer with a grudge against the heroes. Killing any person is something you can talk about I guess, but its hardly worth the horror that Mary was showing, and that the show seemed to want us to think it was. Like, "oh no, Jack has lost his soul! He is killing that psychopathic killer who wants to resurrect the lord of evil, and has the ability to do that! He is clearly slipping down a dark path!" Huh?

Edited April 10, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I just have no clue why Jack killing Nick is such a bad thing.

It's not that he killed him. It's how he killed him.  He probably could have just snapped his neck, or grabbed a knife and stabbed him, or a gun and shot him.  But, he chose to roast him slowly and painfully.  

[DeeDee79]

13 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I just have no clue why Jack killing Nick is such a bad thing. I mean, I guess its morally ambiguous to kill a person, but the Winchesters kill people pretty frequently in the course of fighting evil, so why is this so different? If anything, Nick is even MORE of a clear and present threat to the world than any random vampire or Man of Letters (both of whom they killed without blinking), this guy is the vessel of Lucifer, and even if they lock him up, Lucifer and his demon cronies can still get to him, and he will just keep trying to let Lucifer out. By killing him, you eliminate the threat of Lucifer, AND a human serial killer with a grudge against the heroes. Killing any person is something you can talk about I guess, but its hardly worth the horror that Mary was showing, and that the show seemed to want us to think it was. Like, "oh no, Jack has lost his soul! He is killing that psychopathic killer who wants to resurrect the lord of evil, and has the ability to do that! He is clearly slipping down a dark path!" Huh?

Agreed. The only complaint that I have about Nick's death is that it wasn't done earlier in the season so we could have been rid of him sooner. 

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

It's not that he killed him. It's how he killed him.  He probably could have just snapped his neck, or grabbed a knife and stabbed him, or a gun and shot him.  But, he chose to roast him slowly and painfully.  

Touche. Jack needs to learn how to do that force choke/neck snap that bad guys love to do. Short, quick, and to the point. Not to be insensitive, but none of this would even be an issue if Sam didnt embarrassingly get his ass kicked by normal dude Nick, even after so many years fighting the forces of evil. 

I would probably be more concerned about Jack slow roasting Nick if I wasnt so, terribly, deeply over his character. By that point, I was just ready for him to be gone, by any means necessary.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

It's not that he killed him. It's how he killed him.  He probably could have just snapped his neck, or grabbed a knife and stabbed him, or a gun and shot him.  But, he chose to roast him slowly and painfully.  

I have no problem with it. Nick deserved that painful death for even thinking about resurrecting Lucifer. He knew all the awful things Lucifer did in his vessel. 

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I just have no clue why Jack killing Nick is such a bad thing. I mean, I guess its morally ambiguous to kill a person, but the Winchesters kill people pretty frequently in the course of fighting evil, so why is this so different? If anything, Nick is even MORE of a clear and present threat to the world than any random vampire or Man of Letters (both of whom they killed without blinking), this guy is the vessel of Lucifer, and even if they lock him up, Lucifer and his demon cronies can still get to him, and he will just keep trying to let Lucifer out. By killing him, you eliminate the threat of Lucifer, AND a human serial killer with a grudge against the heroes. Killing any person is something you can talk about I guess, but its hardly worth the horror that Mary was showing, and that the show seemed to want us to think it was. Like, "oh no, Jack has lost his soul! He is killing that psychopathic killer who wants to resurrect the lord of evil, and has the ability to do that! He is clearly slipping down a dark path!" Huh?

It's all plot contrivance to move pieces into place even if it makes no sense.

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

have no problem with it. Nick deserved that painful death for even thinking about resurrecting Lucifer. He knew all the awful things Lucifer did in his vessel. 

I hope you only feel that way because he's a TV character.  Nobody, and I mean nobody, deserves to die like that.  And, let's not forget that Mary was roasted alive on the ceiling.  If anyone knows what that feels like, it would be her.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I hope you only feel that way because he's a TV character.  Nobody, and I mean nobody, deserves to die like that.  And, let's not forget that Mary was roasted alive on the ceiling.  If anyone knows what that feels like, it would be her.

What a weird direction to take my comment. We are talking about a fictional universe after all.

Nick is not an innocent and if Mary is empathizing with Nick at all, given what he was willing to do by resurrecting the entity that made Sam's life miserable, and whom she was so worried would never forgive her for the deal she made, then Mary is well and truly dead to me (I mean more than she already is).

If Mary was worried about what torturing Nick would do to Jack's psyche and humanity then fine. But it seems like you're suggesting that Nick shouldn't have suffered at all for his terrible actions and his willingness to reintroduce Satan himself to the universe, the entity who stole Jack's Grace and tried to kill Jack. I mean Nick is not a sympathetic character in my opinion, so he got what he had coming to him.

[ahrtee]

Does anyone remember that OG Michael killed Anna by burning her?  And even Zachariah mentioned something about being fired was literal?  So it seems to be fairly standard angel (or at least archangel) procedure to kill by burning (even "regular" angels burn people's eyes out).  Maybe the difference here is that Jack took too long/too much pleasure in burning Nick?  (which actually seems more human than angel...)  

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I mean Nick is not a sympathetic character in my opinion, so he got what he had coming to him.

Not to mention

a) "Nick" isn't Nick at all - he's a meatsuit, reconstituted by Crowley to trap Lucifer, and there is no logical reason for 'it' to have Nick's memories or personality, like, at all. IMO, 'it' should have ceased to be animated the moment Lucifer was removed from it.

b) Whatever that meat suit is should not have survived being stabbed by the archangel blade.

c) Even it it was still somehow a human, it has committed more than few sadistic, brutal murders (including an attempt on Mary herself), was will to kill everyone just to get the revenge on that demon a few weeks back, wants to raise Lucifer, and despite repeated chances to change his mind, was still intent on raising Lucifer again. So yeah, he deserved to die, and since burning to ash seems to be Nougat Sue's modus operandi (see: the snake), then I'm okay with him burning Nickifer, too.

[Katy M]

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Nick is not an innocent and if Mary is empathizing with Nick at all, given what he was willing to do by resurrecting the entity that made Sam's life miserable, and whom she was so worried would never forgive her for the deal she made, then Mary is well and truly dead to me (I mean more than she already is).

I don't think I could even watch Hitler dying like that and not feel something.  If Mary wasn't disturbed by that she'd be a robot.

[ILoveReading]

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

If Mary wasn't disturbed by that she'd be a robot.

Mary had no problem climbing to bed (figuratively and literally) with an organization was shot, kidnapped and tortured one son and was starting in on the other one. 

So why would she have disturbed by someone who tortured Sam and made his life...

oh wait, never mind.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Mary had no problem climbing to bed (figuratively and literally) with an organization was shot, kidnapped and tortured one son and was starting in on the other one. 

So why would she have disturbed by someone who tortured Sam and made his life...

oh wait, never mind.

I'm taking this as character growth.

[ILoveReading]

14 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm taking this as character growth.

I take it as more proof Mary's sons and everything they've been through come last to her .

Edited April 10, 2019 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think I could even watch Hitler dying like that and not feel something.  If Mary wasn't disturbed by that she'd be a robot.

I think I must have missed something in my own commentary that said that Mary shouldn't feel anything about it.  I said she shouldn't empathize with him. But she already kind of is a robot IMO. And I'm not being snarky.  She's aloof and cold to her children unless she's begging for them to still love her.  She's pretty self centered IMO.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm taking this as character growth.

I hope it doesn't because to me that implies that Mary cares more about Jack, or even Nick, than her own children. I hope it's more that the writing was bad, the acting from Sam Smith, IMO has never been great so maybe she was supposed to be conveying concern for Jack's soul rather than empathy for Nick's suffering.  That was more my point.

IMO, she shed more tears over John returning than she ever has over her children that has been shown, at least.  I have no interest in a Mary Winchester who spares more love, humanity, concern and kindness for Lucifer's son and an AU Bobby than her own children.  And for me it doesn't matter if it's a writing problem. They can't course correct Mary's relationship to her sons via a not!son and have me like her at all. That makes it worse for this viewer.

At this point, I would rather the show reveals to me that Mary actually did come back soulless or she's been some demon or angel's meatsuit this whole time.