S14.E17: Game Night

[Myrelle]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think I must have missed something in my own commentary that said that Mary shouldn't feel anything about it.  I said she shouldn't empathize with him. But she already kind of is a robot IMO. And I'm not being snarky.  She's aloof and cold to her children unless she's begging for them to still love her.  She's pretty self centered IMO.

They only had her say the stupid shit she said to further the BeigeNougatbaby storyline-the usual MO of Dabbernatural-to hell with canon and characterization where it concerns going from Point A to Point Z of the pseudo plot of the moment.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Myrelle
Spelling

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

) "Nick" isn't Nick at all - he's a meatsuit, reconstituted by Crowley to trap Lucifer, and there is no logical reason for 'it' to have Nick's memories or personality, like, at all. IMO, 'it' should have ceased to be animated the moment Lucifer was removed from it.

Hmm, it does seem like Nick just can't die. So maybe Jack actually killed him the only way possible. 

[Myrelle]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

42 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm taking this as character growth.

IMO, she shed more tears over John returning than she ever has over her children that has been shown, at least.  I have no interest in a Mary Winchester who spares more love, humanity, concern and kindness for Lucifer's son and an AU Bobby than her own children.  And for me it doesn't matter if it's a writing problem. They can't course correct Mary's relationship to her sons via a not!son and have me like her at all. That makes it worse for this viewer.

At this point, I would rather the show reveals to me that Mary actually did come back soulless

I honestly and truly believe that at this point the only chance that they have of saving the character of Mary, in any manner, is if this last part is revealed after she dies and that she never should have been resurrected in the first place.

Edited April 10, 2019 by Myrelle
Revision

[Aeryn13]

"Killing" Nick wasn`t actually a "death" that took all that long. What was it onscreen, twenty seconds? I`ve seen way more gruesome deaths in other stories. Mary`s pearl-clutching was over the top for me in context of the entire situation. I just rolled my eyes.  

[ZennyKenny]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

If Mary was worried about what torturing Nick would do to Jack's psyche and humanity then fine. 

This was my interpretation. She was already worried that there was something "wrong" with Jack. Mary seemed to be panicking while Jack was doing what he did to Nick. I really felt like that was a reaction of "oh shit Jack's going darkside stop stop stop!!"

Also, I don't think he was being sadistic and enjoying torturing Nick; I think it was just full-on unbridled rage.

[OrigamiNightmare]

19 hours ago, FlickChick said:

Sorry this took so long. I didn't like the multiple cuts during the boys' separate fights. To me it breaks up the flow of action and seems to make the actions choppy. Same with the Sam/Dean by the car scene interspersed with Mary/Jack. Just too much switching around for my taste. I think that some of it has always existed, but seems to me to be increasing. Obviously, it could be a director's choice, but I guess I blame the editor.

Thanks so much for responding. In my intro to TV class we have to pick scenes from a TV show and write about the editing, sound, lighting, and costuming and I chose Supernatural (it was an obvious choice lol). So far I've picked: The End when Dean meets Lucifer, Gabriel being revealed (I really like the way that was shot), Death's introduction (so good), and the scene were Jo gets attacked by a Hell hound. I'm pondering adding something from Dark Side of the Moon. If you have any suggestions I'd love to hear them : )

As far as this episode goes I think it felt disjointed. The cuts between fight scene didn't flow very well, I'm not sure if that was intentional or not? And I don't buy for a second that Sam wouldn't have killed Nick (who shouldn't be alive anyway. BS he'd survive being possessed by Lucifer, remember when vessels were supposed to die or be drooling messes). I find it hard to care about Jack (I hope he dies and doesn't come back, remember when death mattered and had consequences. I don't think he will though, the writers and fans love him) or Nick. Sorry to be negative I've just been watching a lot of the early seasons (and not while doing my laundry, writer who said just get through the first 5 seasons the best stuff comes after that, I'm paraphrasing).

Edited April 10, 2019 by OrigamiNightmare
This might be the wrong place to post this?

[trudysmom]

I have been surprised by the debate about Jack and Nick.  To me it felt pretty straightforward.  Jack killed the bad guy, the monster.  That's what the Winchesters do, and he considers himself one.  Even if Nick hadn't gone all serial killer evil, and hadn't just bashed Sam's head in, Jack would probably have toasted him.  When he sees him, he sees Lucifer, who cut his throat and took his grace, who betrayed him and wanted him to fight to the death against Sam.  Given his toddler/adolescent level of maturity, it's very black and white.  "He hurt me, and the people I love, I'm going to hurt him. Then he can die."  Mary saw him kill Nick, the human, in an inhumane way.  She should have kept her trap shut but she couldn't so maybe she's toast, too, maybe not.  At the very least I hope she learned not to push an all-powerful being when he's pissed off. 

[S Cook Productions]

2 hours ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

Thanks so much for responding. In my intro to TV class we have to pick scenes from a TV show and write about the editing, sound, lighting, and costuming and I chose Supernatural (it was an obvious choice lol). So far I've picked: The End when Dean meets Lucifer, Gabriel being revealed (I really like the way that was shot), Death's introduction (so good), and the scene were Jo gets attacked by a Hell hound. I'm pondering adding something from Dark Side of the Moon. If you have any suggestions I'd love to hear them : )

As far as this episode goes I think it felt disjointed. The cuts between fight scene didn't flow very well, I'm not sure if that was intentional or not? And I don't buy for a second that Sam wouldn't have killed Nick (who shouldn't be alive anyway. BS he'd survive being possessed by Lucifer, remember when vessels were supposed to die or be drooling messes). I find it hard to care about Jack (I hope he dies and doesn't come back, remember when death mattered and had consequences. I don't think he will though, the writers and fans love him) or Nick. Sorry to be negative I've just been watching a lot of the early seasons (and not while doing my laundry, writer who said just get through the first 5 seasons the best stuff comes after that, I'm paraphrasing).

That's awesome, speaking as a tv producer and a fan of Cas/angel storylines in general, I really liked the intro of Cas/angels scene in season 4, ep 1 at the end. Oh man, I wish SUPERNATURAL was around when I was taking all of my tv classes- but alas, I graduated in 1999. Yes, I'm Dean's age...old if you ask the Lebanon teens. 😉

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

Also, I don't think he was being sadistic and enjoying torturing Nick; I think it was just full-on unbridled rage.

This is what I think also. Putting together the confrontation in the bunker, the realization that Nick had tricked him to get his blood and seeing Lucifer being brought out of the Empty because of Nick's actions was enough to make him snap.

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

I'm pondering adding something from Dark Side of the Moon. If you have any suggestions I'd love to hear them : )

I'd suggest the scene where Dean is remembering shooting off fireworks in the open field with wee!Sam. That part always makes me smile and it's a wonderful shot IMO.

[SmokeIfyougotem]

22 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

This was my interpretation. She was already worried that there was something "wrong" with Jack. Mary seemed to be panicking while Jack was doing what he did to Nick. I really felt like that was a reaction of "oh shit Jack's going darkside stop stop stop!!"

Also, I don't think he was being sadistic and enjoying torturing Nick; I think it was just full-on unbridled rage.

Yeah and that doesn’t make it okay lol. Lots of people kill because of “unbridled rage” including some serial killers 

[ZennyKenny]

5 hours ago, SmokeIfyougotem said:

Yeah and that doesn’t make it okay lol. Lots of people kill because of “unbridled rage” including some serial killers 

Well I don't think there's anything wrong with it in the context of the show. Sometimes strong emotions have been part of the killing process for just about all of the main players in this series. Emotions up to and including anger and hate.

[OrigamiNightmare]

On 4/10/2019 at 3:53 PM, S Cook Productions said:

That's awesome, speaking as a tv producer and a fan of Cas/angel storylines in general, I really liked the intro of Cas/angels scene in season 4, ep 1 at the end. Oh man, I wish SUPERNATURAL was around when I was taking all of my tv classes- but alas, I graduated in 1999. Yes, I'm Dean's age...old if you ask the Lebanon teens. 😉

I graduated high school in 1999 so yeah I'm about Dean's age I think. The scene I'm really focusing on is in Changing Channels when the trickster reveals himself as Gabriel.

[S Cook Productions]

My mom just called me to say she didn’t understand this episode. Mostly the angel grace stuff. Lol. 

She also can never properly understand flashback scenes either, so this past week’s will be a real treat lol. 

Edited April 13, 2019 by S Cook Productions
Addition

[Lemuria]

10 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Mary can put a sock in it.   I have no clue why she gave a shit about Nick.

It’s not that Jack killed  Nick; it’s how he did it. Sam should have taken Nick out when he had the chance and I would have had no problem with that. Nick had not only killed a lot of people, some of whom were probably innocent of any wrongdoing, but he was actively trying to bring Lucifer back. He had to be stopped and he had to be stopped permanently. Sam should’ve already learned the lesson that Nick was not interested in being redeemed. Unless Sam intended to find a way to lock Nick up for the rest of his life and to keep Nick away from any means of summoning Lucifer, then Sam had to make the tough choice and taking it down. He didn’t.

The problem, in regard to Jack, is twofold:  first, he wasn’t killing Nick because he was concerned about the world; he went after Nick because he was furious and has absolutely no control over his abilities. And second, was the way he did it.

 Jack not only killed Nick in a fairly brutal manner, but he also tortured Nick first. Breaking his fingers, for example. And in this kind of an instance, I think the point is that it’s not about Nick, it’s about Jack. It’s not about them, it’s about us. 

 The good guys are supposed to be better than the bad guys. Irvin Kershner one said that the difference between the Empire and the Rebellion is not that the Rebellion can’t do what the Empire can, but that they won’t. 

Jack is very powerful; appears to have no control over his emotions, especially rage and hatred***; and seems capable of brutality and cruelty. This is a beyond dangerous combination. I’m far from being a fan of Mary but I thought she was right to be concerned and horrified. I also thought she was incredibly stupid to go about it the way she did.

***Early this season, when we saw Sam trying to get some instruction to Jack, Sam was trying to teach him about using his powers. I thought at the time that that was the wrong approach and that what Sam should’ve been doing was trying to teach Jack how to control his emotions first. Control over the powers would come with time, but if  Jack did not learn to keep a tight rein on his emotions first, then learning to use his powers that only make him more dangerous. 

(Well, it seems that the iPhone can not distinguish between reign and rein. Good to know it’s not ready to take over the world as yet!)

Edited April 14, 2019 by Lemuria

[FlickChick]

19 hours ago, Lemuria said:

***Early this season, when we saw Sam trying to get some instruction to Jack, Sam was trying to teach him about using his powers. I thought at the time that that was the wrong approach and that what Sam should’ve been doing was trying to teach Jack how to control his emotions first. Control over the powers would come with time, but if  Jack did not learn to keep a tight rein on his emotions first, then learning to use his powers that only make him more dangerous.

Absolutely. But Sam was in a big hurry to use Jack's powers to get into the AU to save Mary since he believed that she could possibly still be alive. And look how Jack using his powers ultimately turned out for Mary.

[ParadoxLost]

I'm trying to catch up after several weeks of not watching.  This one starts with juggling cookie dough as a way to convey happiness before getting drugged and kidnapped.

Its going to suck isn't it?

[Bali]

I'll start at the beginning. I liked the fact that the Mousetrap didn't work. It means that I really do have something in common with Dean. I did enjoy building that thing over and over, but it always needed some help to actually work. I think we fixed it with a rubber band of our own.

I despise Nickifer. I wish he was truly and sincerely dead. I do not see the point to this character still being around? I mean- seriously he isn't the big bad anymore, he is just a serial killer. Aw, whiney boy wants Lucifer back in his head because it felt good to be evil. Uhm- okay? Stupid. I just want Nickifer to go away. I guess MP is an okay actor. I just am at the point where I hate seeing his face. I want him to be an actor on some other show- preferably one that I don't watch. Nickifer annoys me so much that I would need a VERY different character for MP to play for me to be able to stomach him.

I'm a bit confused about something (Admittedly, I did start playing Candy Crush half way through this one so I might have missed something.) Was Nickifer able to syphon the remainder of Jack's soul when Jack head butted him? Or was there supposedly no soul and it was about the blood? Don't know. Don't care. 

Cas and Lady Angel- I did like their scenes sort of. But not really. 

Yeah- Dean got to fight a monster and be all badass and win and stuff. Sam wasn't so lucky. He got whipped by a dude that in NO WAY in NO REASONABLE universe would be as buff as Sam. No way Lucifer was making Nick work out. Just no way it would have happened.

These people REALLY need to start listening to the other people! Jack should have listened last week when the annoying teens were all scared of him. They were saying Stop. He didn't. And of course, he stabbed one of them. Cut to this week- Jack is yelling, STOP LEAVE ME ALONE. Annoying Mary won't listen- and now she's dead too. Or at least I hope she is. I mean- good grief the character who subjected me to scenes banging Ketch is now all high and mighty about not making people suffer? I am still suffering at Randy Mary and her scenes- but does she care? NO! OK- back to the talking- it is starting to seem like while we- the audience hears words coming out of these people's mouths, all the characters hear is the wha wha noises of the Charlie Brown teachers. 
 

UGH! SUCH A WASTED OPPORTUNITY

[Katy M]

46 minutes ago, Bali said:

I'm a bit confused about something (Admittedly, I did start playing Candy Crush half way through this one so I might have missed something.) Was Nickifer able to syphon the remainder of Jack's soul when Jack head butted him? Or was there supposedly no soul and it was about the blood? Don't know. Don't care. 

As far as I know, it was just about the blood.  Every time Jack uses his powers, he burns off his soul. So, I guess transporting himself and Mary to Nick was the last straw.

[The Companion]

On 4/4/2019 at 8:03 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I guess we're supposed to hate how Jack ended Nickifer but I'm not. First off, Nick being able to resurrect Lucifer from the Empty was too easy to begin with. But also, even though I would have preferred Sam to end Nickifer for good, at least he seems to be gone for good. Sorry Mark Pellegrino, I like you as an actor, but your time was up.

If they wanted us to feel horror instead of relief, they should have chosen a character we weren't all insanely sick of, and a character we hadn't watched murder and torture people over and over again. 

The entire episode, I was thinking "JUST KILL HIM." Beyond what he had done, he represented a massive threat to humanity. He wanted to bring back Lucifer. He wanted to be a vessel and go back to killing. Struggling to find the horror here, particularly after watching the show kill people off in significantly more brutal ways over and over.

On 4/5/2019 at 8:33 AM, Aeryn13 said:

 

And seriously a fake-out death scare for Sam. It`s ridiculous at this point for any of the brothers. I don`t even care about the acting in such scenes, they create nothing but boredom and zero emotional impact for me.  

It is so silly at this point. No matter how well acted, the stakes are 0 and we all know it.

On 4/5/2019 at 8:53 AM, Myrelle said:

I still like watching Dean fake die.  Jensen is much better at it to me. 

I don't know why this made me giggle. Objectively and out.of context, it's such a weird statement. 😂

On 4/5/2019 at 1:14 PM, starfishka said:

This episode wasn't too bad if you don´t care about plot holes (i do) or care about Nick/Lucifer or Jack (I don't). 

Replace episode with season. 😭😆

On 4/5/2019 at 1:26 PM, tennisgurl said:

Maybe I lost a few slices of my soul over the years, but I thought that killing Nick was one of the smartest things that Jack has ever done. Really, Sam should have shot him in the head the second he started cackling about how he and the demons were plotting to bring Lucifer back. Its not about him deserving death, its about how this guy is a clear and present danger to the whole world, and if he is still alive, he can keep trying to bring Lucifer back, and has his vessel, he has the ability to do just that, which would create huge problems and probably get tons of innocent people killed. Yeah killing someone in cold blood sucks, but what exactly are the other options here? What other ways are there to deal with this, Mary? Nick isnt even a good guy anymore, what exactly is the ethical quandary here? They kill people without a lot of hand wringing, so why is this so different? Its all good when he wastes random monsters and angels who are just mooks, but the serial killer trying to bring about massive destruction for his own ego? Him we have to save?

 

This. We have watched monsters get taken out for less. We have even watched humans get taken out for less. They TRIED to leave him alive and incarcerated and he proved that it was neither effective nor a deterrent. 

On 4/5/2019 at 3:48 PM, Katy M said:

If Mary wanted Jack to stop frying Nick she should have pulled out a gun and shot him (Nick).  End of problem. 

Yup. Either we are supposed to conclude she didn't think he needed to be taken out or it was too quick for her to do this. 

On 4/6/2019 at 10:26 PM, Lady Calypso said:

.It was definitely really stupid. It was as if Sam was never a hunter in his 35+ years of life and forgot how to fight an actual human. This is why I hate when writers write for plot, rather than character. Sam would have never paused for so long while beating Nickifer up. He wouldn't have intentionally LET HIM GO while strangling him, giving Nickifer enough time to slam a rock into Sam's head. He wouldn't have hidden in the car long before he got his head caved in. I know he likely had a concussion but we know Sam has dealt with worse. No way would he have not taken Nickifer down quickly.

Dean and Sam are supposed to be pros; they've been at it all their lives, but we've seen them face a lot worse in 14 seasons. This just doesn't work on a veteran show like this. But this show has always gone for plot contrivances to allow other characters to win or steal the spotlight. Sam and Dean have both lost fights that they should have theoretically won without breaking much of a sweat. 

But this Sam vs Nickifer fight very well may be one of the worst fights I've seen because of how weak Sam looked by the end of it. It's not even about Sam needing to win every fight; a teenager could have won this fight against Nickifer. It would have been equally as bad if Dean lost this fight. 

The visual of him in the car honking the horn was so bad. Additionally, the inconsistencies in their fighting ability for plot reasons makes the show so frustrating. 

On 4/7/2019 at 1:43 AM, Aeryn13 said:

This was supposed to link back to Mary's words in how good a man Sam is so he obviously wouldn't strangle/bludgeon "poor Nick". It wasn't a statement on  Sam's abilities but his saintliness. And directly juxtaposed with Mary freaking out on Jack for burning Nickifer. That she just looked hysterical and stupid (and hypocritical) once more flew over the writers heads.     

The out of character statements were so glaring that I was wondering if: 1. She was suicidal, or 2. It was a sign that she was possessed or not Mary in some way. Then I concluded they were killing her off (not sure if that will be the case). 

On 4/7/2019 at 2:06 PM, catrox14 said:

That's why I can't figure out why he stopped.  I mean after choking him, he had no good reason to not also shoot him n the head.

Other than maybe he had a thought about using Nick's info on summoning Lucifer for...reasons..?

It made no sense. Sam has been pretty clear on the need to take Nick out and he has been feeling extremely guilty about letting him loose on the world. The only reason to let up was plot.

On 4/7/2019 at 6:37 PM, trudysmom said:

 

After a painful rewatch (Dean was still in it, after all) I'm still frustrated with Sam not taking Nick out when he had the chance. And when Dean wouldn't let Sam get to him in the bunker because they needed him alive until they found Donatello, wth?  Sam, who is boy genius, computer hacker.  He figured out who what where when and how in 13: 11 when Donna's niece was missing.  He cracked this complicated computer dark web thing. But he couldn't hack the phone  or something? 

I wish if the writers are going to inflict Nick on us, they would show us something interesting.  Like where/how did he get the grace and know to use it on Donatello? 

It was so poorly written that he would say: "yeah we might be able to hack into the feed but it will take time, maybe more than we have" and then try to go question Nick. What? If it might be possible, you need to get working on that.

On 4/8/2019 at 11:42 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

I would be if I wasn't just so worn down... but for me the writers have spent most of this season making Sam look incompetent for anything that doesn't fit into "nerd" territory (whether it's intentional or not, is another question altogether), so this, for me, wasn't really anything new. Making sure the plot goes as desired is much more important than making sure that Sam doesn't look like an incompetent rookie rather than a hunter who is supposed to have over a dozen years experience fighting scarier things than a middle-aged, human Nick.

But that would then be implying that Dean wasn't entirely Dean anymore and that would seem to be contradictory to the Sam dying declaration of how human and self-sacrificing Dean is "You always put me first..."

I would think if they were going for a "something's wrong with Dean" angle, they wouldn't then put in something referring to how self-sacrificing Dean is fairly soon after that... If anything, if I got the timing right - with the horn honking signaling "Sam's in trouble" - I would more think that they were going for a Mama Bear adrenaline thing than a Dean couldn't possibly do it on his own, it must be Michael thing.

But Dean has had a few good fight scenes this season. It's not generally Dean I see the show as implying as incompetent in this area.

But for me, that wouldn't explain the incompetence they were showing. What, Sam couldn't choke Nick out without killing him if they didn't want Sam to kill him?*** There's plenty of leeway between killing someone and just letting them go... and Sam should be well-educated in those kinds of techniques. He was able to knock out two trained SWAT guys for example in "Nightshifter." I'm assuming he knows how to do so without killing.

I more agree with @Lady Calypso's and @ILoveReading's points on this one: it was just bad and the plot needed it to happen, respectively.

*** Though in my opinion, as ILoveRedaing said, Dabb hasn't hesitated in having Sam kill people if there's reason - like the British Men of Letters - and there was just as much reason to kill Nick - considering he murdered people and was going to raise Lucifer - as there was the BMoL.

Agreed. 

On 4/10/2019 at 11:17 AM, Aeryn13 said:

"Killing" Nick wasn`t actually a "death" that took all that long. What was it onscreen, twenty seconds? I`ve seen way more gruesome deaths in other stories. Mary`s pearl-clutching was over the top for me in context of the entire situation. I just rolled my eyes.  

Yeah, they definitely didn't make it gruesome enough to raise an eyebrow in this show. We have watched Sam torture and kill a demon. We have watched the guys bury someone alive who can't die. We have seen them kill monsters because they were potential threats. We see them kill innocent people possessed by demons without even trying to use exorcism. We have watched cause massive collateral damage to save each other. The world established here is brutal and people die in horrifying ways every week with a hell of a lot less justification than this one.

 

Honestly, I just want Nick gone and assuming it sticks, I will have to give some credit to this episode. But it was just so poorly written. 

[Casseiopeia]

28 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Honestly, I just want Nick gone and assuming it sticks, I will have to give some credit to this episode. But it was just so poorly written. 

There are a certain pair of writers that are in love with Lucifer unfortunately.  I wouldn't hold my breath that either Nick or Lucifer are gone for good.

[The Companion]

2 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

There are a certain pair of writers that are in love with Lucifer unfortunately.  I wouldn't hold my breath that either Nick or Lucifer are gone for good.

My hatred of him is reaching Negan levels. They even had a slow motion shot of the smarmy face he makes that makes you want to punch him. 🙄

[Scout Finch]

How would Mary know that Mousetrap was Dean's favorite when he was a child? She died when he was four and he would have had no concept of the game at that age and younger.

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, Scout Finch said:

How would Mary know that Mousetrap was Dean's favorite when he was a child? She died when he was four and he would have had no concept of the game at that age and younger.

He was almost 5.  I have no problem believing that a 4 1/2 year old would love mouse trap.  John and Mary would have had to set it up and supervise, but honestly, I think I played that game when I was that young.  I have vague recollections of playing with my sister and had I been much older, she wouldn't have wanted to play anymore because she would have been too old.

[gonzosgirrl]

11 hours ago, Katy M said:

He was almost 5.  I have no problem believing that a 4 1/2 year old would love mouse trap.  John and Mary would have had to set it up and supervise, but honestly, I think I played that game when I was that young.  I have vague recollections of playing with my sister and had I been much older, she wouldn't have wanted to play anymore because she would have been too old.

And contrary to 'new canon', Dean has always been mechanically inclined and good with patterns and designs. Mousetrap would have intrigued his young mind, IMO. But I doubt that these writers gave any of it a thought beyond the sight gag of Dean fumbling around.