S08.E14: The End or the Beginning

[aphroditewitch]

I don't think Will and Jasmine will maintain a friendship. Why would she want to be friends with him? And to be honest, since she and her father have such a deep connection with Lincoln, Will might just have to let go of that network of people. Jasmine will probably stay friends with the other women on the show. 

[LuvMyShows]

Unpopular opinion here I'm guessing.  If in fact Will was not attracted to Jasmine at all, even initially (which I actually do not agree with, but I'll go along with it), then there is no way on earth that he could tell her that.  And why is that?  Because if any of his lack of attraction was about her size, or if it was even perceived by others that the reason might have to do with her size, then he would be banished to the rings of hell for all eternity, by Jasmine and the experts, and many many many many women on social media (and I'm guessing by some of the women in this forum).  He was not lying when he mentioned communication as a problem.  Heck, many people here commented on her poor communication with him.  So he went with one of the reasons that he didn't want to stay married to her (a major one as we saw in their interactions), and chose to stick with just that one.  We can speculate all we want about what his real reasons were, but that is all it is, speculation, because he didn't put out any other words to be slammed for later and I say good for him..   

[Ilovepie]

3 hours ago, Marsh said:

17 hours ago, Marsh said:

As a guy, I 100% agree with how Will handled the situation.  You can never tell a woman that you aren't attracted to her.  Under any circumstance. It will completely destroy her self-esteem.  Instead that's when you say things like "I'm just not interested." / "I don't feel the connection."

Of course women want honesty.  But 99% of men will do this to avoid hurting your feelings. (The 1% is Puke)

This forum is probably 90% female so it's difficult to understand why men do what we do. But this is how the majority of us act.  This is how we are programmed / raised / etc.  It has nothing to do with being a coward for not being honest, we just don't want to hurt your feelings.  Some people are making it sound like you're either a coward for not telling the truth or a jerk for telling the truth (cause it will hurt). 

So...staying in the middle is best for all parties.  Bending the truth, or going around it.

I'm with you Will. I understand. 

I agree with you @Marsh, most guys are nice enough not to be overtly mean about whether they are attracted to someone they go out with; that is why I stated there is no point of reference here because it's forced togetherness. In real life, if you go out with someone and you just don't really feel it, it's pretty easy to get away from them without having to spell out why. I also think a lot of men have an abhorrence of drama at all costs and would rather ghost someone than have that conversation.

The one thing I take exception with is that it will destroy a woman's self-esteem. I guess it depends on the woman and how invested she is. If I went out with someone a couple times, it certainly would not destroy my self-esteem. In fact, I have had this happen to me in my younger days. It is awkward for sure, but I have a healthy self esteem and survived with minimal damage. I just took it that it was not the right guy for me and went on my way......

[Soup333]

57 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

Unpopular opinion here I'm guessing.  If in fact Will was not attracted to Jasmine at all, even initially (which I actually do not agree with, but I'll go along with it), then there is no way on earth that he could tell her that.  And why is that?  Because if any of his lack of attraction was about her size, or if it was even perceived by others that the reason might have to do with her size, then he would be banished to the rings of hell for all eternity, by Jasmine and the experts, and many many many many women on social media (and I'm guessing by some of the women in this forum).  He was not lying when he mentioned communication as a problem.  Heck, many people here commented on her poor communication with him.  So he went with one of the reasons that he didn't want to stay married to her (a major one as we saw in their interactions), and chose to stick with just that one.  We can speculate all we want about what his real reasons were, but that is all it is, speculation, because he didn't put out any other words to be slammed for later and I say good for him..   

I agree. I don't think Will found Jasmine unattractive at the wedding, but by the time they talked about gender roles and money he might have looked at her in a new light. 

I say Jasmine is obtuse because I really don't think she sees (or will ever see) any connection to how her near constant digs at Will affected their marriage. I think she's one of those people who don't know how to truly listen and hear what someone else is saying. 

As far as I'm concerned Will hasn't told a lie yet that we've seen, certainly not repeatedly. In defense of his 6.8 rating he said he wanted to be honest even though it might not be what she wanted to hear. 

[aphroditewitch]

6 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

I say Jasmine is obtuse because I really don't think she sees (or will ever see) any connection to how her near constant digs at Will affected their marriage. I think she's one of those people who don't know how to truly listen and hear what someone else is saying. 

But what about Will's constant digs at Jasmine? They have been swept under the rug because people decided she deserved it in some way.

[Mztami]

How can you want the gender roles but don't want it all.  I see nothing wrong with wanting your husband to be the provider...He wants her to do all the chores and pay half the bills ..  If you want 50/50  all should be 50/50 chores and bills...

I was pissed she wanted to stay with him...I will have 25 yrs on my job in November.. I see nothing wrong with having a plan for the future  ..

Edited April 4, 2019 by Mztami

[dirtypop90]

19 hours ago, Marsh said:

As a guy, I 100% agree with how Will handled the situation.  You can never tell a woman that you aren't attracted to her.  Under any circumstance. It will completely destroy her self-esteem.  Instead that's when you say things like "I'm just not interested." / "I don't feel the connection."

Of course women want honesty.  But 99% of men will do this to avoid hurting your feelings. (The 1% is Puke)

But Will didn't even say "I'm just not interested."  All he said was communication was lacking.  And he kept leading her to believe there was a future with them (he said this during confessionals to) and flat out told her he was attracted to her.  He also said if he had to do this experiment again, he would've chosen Jasmine.  I think those were flat out unnecessary lies.  I don't think he needed to lead her on in that way when he clearly wasn't feeling it.

and FYI, as a woman, you telling a woman you're not attracted to her will not completely destroy her self esteem.  In fact, women get told this by men all the time and they move on just fine.  If a woman is "destroyed" after a man tells her that, she already had low self esteem to begin with.

[Ohwell]

5 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

But Will didn't even say "I'm just not interested."  All he said was communication was lacking.  And he kept leading her to believe there was a future with them (he said this during confessionals to) and flat out told her he was attracted to her.  He also said if he had to do this experiment again, he would've chosen Jasmine.  I think those were flat out unnecessary lies.  I don't think he needed to lead her on in that way when he clearly wasn't feeling it.

Did he say these things about Jasmine during his confessionals, or did he say them directly to her?  For example, did he tell her to her face that he was attracted to her?  Frankly, I don't remember, but if it was only during confessionals, then she wouldn't have known how he really felt about her and he wasn't lying but covering up.  I think he didn't want to hurt her feelings.  I understand that can be interpreted as cowardice, but I also understand where he was coming from.  

[dirtypop90]

1 minute ago, Ohwell said:

Did he say these things about Jasmine during his confessionals, or did he say them directly to her?  For example, did he tell her to her face that he was attracted to her?  Frankly, I don't remember, but if it was only during confessionals, then she wouldn't have known how he really felt about her and he wasn't lying but covering up.  I think he didn't want to hurt her feelings.  I understand that can be interpreted as cowardice, but I also understand where he was coming from.  

Yes, I remember Will telling Jasmine he was attracted to her.  It was the episode Pastor Cal came to visit and asked if they were in the friend-zone, I think.  I remember them having this convo on the couch.

[Ohwell]

5 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Yes, I remember Will telling Jasmine he was attracted to her.  It was the episode Pastor Cal came to visit and asked if they were in the friend-zone, I think.  I remember them having this convo on the couch.

Ok, thanks.  Then he probably felt like he had to say that in front of Pastor Cal, who seemed to be pushing the sex.  

[spunky]

8 hours ago, aphroditewitch said:

This is not the time I was talking about. I mentioned earlier that I was talking about when they were in the car on the way to the mini moon. I never once mentioned when they were looking back at the weddings. 

He really was an undercover jerk. He clearly stated that kissing her was awkward, then tried to make it look like she was overreacting.  She put herself out there while all he did was sleep all day. He had to say communication was  the issue, the "dead and repulsed inside" line was already used by the other resident jerk. 

[aphroditewitch]

22 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

But Will didn't even say "I'm just not interested."  All he said was communication was lacking.  And he kept leading her to believe there was a future with them (he said this during confessionals to) and flat out told her he was attracted to her.  He also said if he had to do this experiment again, he would've chosen Jasmine.  I think those were flat out unnecessary lies.  I don't think he needed to lead her on in that way when he clearly wasn't feeling it.

and FYI, as a woman, you telling a woman you're not attracted to her will not completely destroy her self esteem.  In fact, women get told this by men all the time and they move on just fine.  If a woman is "destroyed" after a man tells her that, she already had low self esteem to begin with.

Will was leading Jasmine on all season and being dishonest with her. He kept going on about how he was such an intellectual and needed that type of stimulation. Really? Hmm, rewind back to the Bachelor party, Will had no problem with the strippers being all over him. And frankly he isn't that smart or he would have let Jasmine dump him. Instead he kept feeding her a line and then went on to humiliate her on television.  Now her father is going to go scorched earth on him and any Lincoln connections Will does have are not going to help him, that bridge is burned.

[dirtypop90]

13 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

Ok, thanks.  Then he probably felt like he had to say that in front of Pastor Cal, who seemed to be pushing the sex.  

He said it after Pastor Cal left.  It was only him and Jasmine (and the camera).  Regardless,  I just don't think that it was necessary to lead Jasmine on.  Will is almost 40.  I just can't make excuses for him.  He should've handled all of this better.

Edited April 5, 2019 by dirtypop90

[LuvMyShows]

8 hours ago, gonecrackers said:

Well put... they were both in a bad situation together. Will bumbled through it; I don't think he handled it perfectly. He does not strike me as a liar - he did strike me as a person in a very awkward situation not able to properly handle it. And there was no one for him to go to for help - Pastor Cal was not his fan & made a stupid comment on the 'expert' commentary show about how Will "should just make love to his wife" - what a prick to say that. If he had said that about a woman holding out he would've been destroyed (hopefully) in comments. Cal would never have supported Will's concerns had he been honest. 

Did Pastor Cal really say this on Unfiltered?  If so, in my mind he should be removed from the show.  I am so glad that Will didn't do it, as it would have been horribly unfair to Jasmine.  I guess Pastor Cal thought that if only Will made love to his wife, then everything would be fine....sure, that always works, and hasn't caused problems in hundreds of thousands of marriages/relationships over the years!

[LuvMyShows]

1 hour ago, Soup333 said:

As far as I'm concerned Will hasn't told a lie yet that we've seen, certainly not repeatedly. In defense of his 6.8 rating he said he wanted to be honest even though it might not be what she wanted to hear. 

Agree.  And look where the honesty got him that time?  Jasmine was very pissed, and IIRC, the majority of people on this forum did not think he should have told her that rating even if it was truly his rating.

[Ohwell]

10 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

He said it after Pastor Cal left.  It was only him and Jasmine (and the camera).  Regardless,  I just don't think that it was necessary to lead Jasmine on.  Will is almost 40.  I just can't make excuses for him.  He should've handled all of this better.

He could have handled things better but all I can say is that it's hard to tell someone to their face that you're just not attracted.  A lot of people have been cowards in that situation.  So I give him a pass.  

[aphroditewitch]

13 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

He said it after Pastor Cal left.  It was only him and Jasmine (and the camera).  Regardless,  I just don't think that it was necessary to lead Jasmine on.  Will is almost 40.  I just can't make excuses for him.  He should've handled all of this better.

He should have. And his arrogant face after he said he wanted a divorce and she started blaming herself. He didn't say anything. He just let her take the blame. Meanwhile he didn't try at all. Like I said, when her father destroys him, he won't have anyone to blame but himself. 

[scruffy73]

Why is Will’s not wanting to be with Jasmine incongruent with him finding her physically attractive? Him “not being into her” doesn’t appear TO ME to be about her looks. I believe him when he said he is physically attracted to her. It doesn’t have to be all or nothing. She is beautiful but her personality and values don’t mesh with his. I’ve met some handsome assholes in my lifetime. We didn’t not work out bc I wasn’t attracted; we didn’t work out bc they ain’t shit.

[scruffy73]

4 hours ago, aphroditewitch said:

I don't think Will and Jasmine will maintain a friendship. Why would she want to be friends with him? And to be honest, since she and her father have such a deep connection with Lincoln, Will might just have to let go of that network of people. Jasmine will probably stay friends with the other women on the show. 

Negative. He isn’t going to give up his relationships at Lincoln bc of this. That is not how HBCUs work. The same way Jasmine’s father is still tied to Lincoln, Will will remain tied to the school. Nobody or nothing breaks the bond you have with your school, current students, and Alumnae/alumni. He will just have to steer clear or wave from a distance.

[aphroditewitch]

15 minutes ago, scruffy73 said:

Negative. He isn’t going to give up his relationships at Lincoln bc of this. That is not how HBCUs work. The same way Jasmine’s father is still tied to Lincoln, Will will remain tied to the school. Nobody or nothing breaks the bond you have with your school, current students, and Alumnae/alumni. He will just have to steer clear or wave from a distance.

Not if her father goes scorched earth, which I think he will do. Will might not have much say, he chose to burn that bridge. 

[Soup333]

At this point I feel like I was watching a different show. 

I don’t and will likely never see Will as a liar (unless something is revealed at the reunion). I don’t think he’s stupid or lazy.  I don’t believe he found her unattractive - physically unattractive at all. Her constant focus on money and the way she berated him were unattractive. It’s possible he found her attractive as a wife at the time he made the comment and then less so as time went on and she kept being her Princess self. In my experience attraction can wane with ugly actions. 

[Neurochick]

3 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Unpopular opinion here I'm guessing.  If in fact Will was not attracted to Jasmine at all, even initially (which I actually do not agree with, but I'll go along with it), then there is no way on earth that he could tell her that.  And why is that?  Because if any of his lack of attraction was about her size, or if it was even perceived by others that the reason might have to do with her size, then he would be banished to the rings of hell for all eternity, by Jasmine and the experts, and many many many many women on social media (and I'm guessing by some of the women in this forum).  He was not lying when he mentioned communication as a problem.  Heck, many people here commented on her poor communication with him.  So he went with one of the reasons that he didn't want to stay married to her (a major one as we saw in their interactions), and chose to stick with just that one.  We can speculate all we want about what his real reasons were, but that is all it is, speculation, because he didn't put out any other words to be slammed for later and I say good for him..   

I totally agree with this.  Last season folks, including me, were angry with Tristan when he said he didn't want to be with a woman darker than himself, or a woman who was heavier.  

Later though, I wondered why I had been so upset.  What's wrong with a man or a woman saying what physical characteristics they like and don't like?  Maybe Will just wasn't into Jasmine; damn, even I could tell he wasn't into her, no matter what he said.

[aphroditewitch]

1 minute ago, Neurochick said:

I totally agree with this.  Last season folks, including me, were angry with Tristan when he said he didn't want to be with a woman darker than himself, or a woman who was heavier.  

Later though, I wondered why I had been so upset.  What's wrong with a man or a woman saying what physical characteristics they like and don't like?  Maybe Will just wasn't into Jasmine; damn, even I could tell he wasn't into her, no matter what he said.

The issue is not that he was not into her. It is fine that he was not into her. But he decided to lead her on and lie when he claimed  it was about communication and that was not true. He also felt she should completely take the blame. He didn't speak up and say anything when she blamed herself when he said it was communication. He just sat there with a smug look on his face. He was happy that he hurt her in such a public way. And that will come back to bite him. 

[gonecrackers]

44 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

Not if her father goes scorched earth, which I think he will do. Will might not have much say, he chose to burn that bridge. 

28 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

He just sat there with a smug look on his face. He was happy that he hurt her in such a public way.

IMO he didn't appear to be taking any pleasure in hurting her; he just did what he felt he needed to do, & if her family behaves that way after it all then they will show he really dodged a huge bullet getting involved with that family.

She shouldn't need daddy to do him a wrong because she's hurt - she should be a grown up woman & work it out for herself, with hopefully, them for support.

1 hour ago, LuvMyShows said:

Did Pastor Cal really say this on Unfiltered?  If so, in my mind he should be removed from the show.  I am so glad that Will didn't do it, as it would have been horribly unfair to Jasmine.  I guess Pastor Cal thought that if only Will made love to his wife, then everything would be fine....sure, that always works, and hasn't caused problems in hundreds of thousands of marriages/relationships over the years!

Not on Unfiltered - it was that other show no one seems to watch, where they replay one of the episodes & interject the 'experts' taking viewer questions. I didn't watch it either, except to catch a clip here & there, & I am really glad I caught that crap from Cal so I could post it here, because that sucked so bad - & yeah I agree he should be removed.

[Neurochick]

42 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

The issue is not that he was not into her. It is fine that he was not into her. But he decided to lead her on and lie when he claimed  it was about communication and that was not true. He also felt she should completely take the blame. He didn't speak up and say anything when she blamed herself when he said it was communication. He just sat there with a smug look on his face. He was happy that he hurt her in such a public way. And that will come back to bite him. 

I'm confused because I didn't see this at all.    I guess this proves how people can watch a show and see totally different things.

[CousinOliver]

7 hours ago, Marsh said:

This forum is probably 90% female so it's difficult to understand why men do what we do. But this is how the majority of us act.  This is how we are programmed / raised / etc.  It has nothing to do with being a coward for not being honest, we just don't want to hurt your feelings.  Some people are making it sound like you're either a coward for not telling the truth or a jerk for telling the truth (cause it will hurt). 

So...staying in the middle is best for all parties.  Bending the truth, or going around it.

I'm with you Will. I understand. 

I’m with Will, too.  

They were married for 7 weeks, as per the arrangement.  Will was not being abused; he was not abusing Jas.  They were, rightfully, going to fulfill the obligations to the show.  

Now he’s going to come in when she’s starting to ask for sex and say he’s not attracted to her?  And then expect her to be okay, seeing him day in and day out?   This is very different from admitting no attraction and going your separate ways.  It would have been truly unkind to say such a thing, mid-experiment.

Also, I think Will was physically attracted to her, at least early on.  It was Jas, the person, with her put downs, money focus, pushing sex, better-than personality that turned him off, not her face or body.  

[Ms.C.]

1 hour ago, Soup333 said:

At this point I feel like I was watching a different show. 

I don’t and will likely never see Will as a liar (unless something is revealed at the reunion). I don’t think he’s stupid or lazy.  I don’t believe he found her unattractive - physically unattractive at all. Her constant focus on money and the way she berated him were unattractive. It’s possible he found her attractive as a wife at the time he made the comment and then less so as time went on and she kept being her Princess self. In my experience attraction can wane with ugly actions. 

23 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I'm confused because I didn't see this at all.    I guess this proves how people can watch a show and see totally different things.

I agree with you 100%.   Will was attracted at first. When they revisited their wedding spot, he said he’d do it again and he was holding her hands and smiling. I think jasmine never understood his values. He’s in finance and has undoubtedly made himself econ secure. But he wants conversation, reflection, and someone who wants to share more than planning a richer future together. I’m sorry jasmine did not get that.  What’s more, Will is more of a homebody. He’d be a great dad and good husband. He knew what he wanted.  The experts really missed that these two have very different values.  

[aphroditewitch]

36 minutes ago, gonecrackers said:

IMO he didn't appear to be taking any pleasure in hurting her; he just did what he felt he needed to do, & if her family behaves that way after it all then they will show he really dodged a huge bullet getting involved with that family.

She shouldn't need daddy to do him a wrong because she's hurt - she should be a grown up woman & work it out for herself, with hopefully, them for support.

Then maybe he should have spoken up when she was blaming herself. But he didn't because he enjoyed hurting her. He brought it on himself.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

But what about Will's constant digs at Jasmine? They have been swept under the rug because people decided she deserved it in some way.

What digs were those? I don't remember him saying anything that I would perceive as a dig, but maybe I'm forgetting?

Quote

I think Will was physically attracted to her, at least early on. 

I don't remember Will ever saying that he was attracted to Jasmine (though I could certainly be forgetting something). I do recall that he said she was attractive. There is a huge difference. I see plenty of people that I find to be attractive but I'm not attracted to them. I think Will thought Jasmine was pretty. She might even have been his type. But I don't think he had any physical (or any other kind) of attraction to her. 

Quote

He just sat there with a smug look on his face. He was happy that he hurt her in such a public way. 

I didn't see this at all. I really don't know what else he was supposed to do. The marriage wasn't working for him and I think it probably wasn't working for him from early on. He didn't take advantage of her by having sex with her. He wasn't cruel or unkind. Despite seeing numerous accusations that he lied to her, I haven't yet seen a single example (except for some detail about whether or not she turned her head after a kiss which I could just as easily chalk up to a faulty memory). I think that he was tactfully honest at some difficult times (rating her a 6.8 and saying the kissing exercise was awkward). Better that they both cut their losses now, especially with him knowing she wants children and the clock is ticking. 

[Ms.C.]

On 4/2/2019 at 9:12 PM, antfitz said:

You are so right.  He is disgusting. I wonder what he would have said had he gone 1st. But I'm glad she went 1st, And let him know she was unhappy.

 Yes, she is entering this marriage with a job besides her regular job.

I love Keith’s openness and positive outlook. His gram did an awesome job raising him.  He is more ambitious than he’s credited and Kristine is perfect match.  He was just waiting to bloom.  They communicated, had fun together, and fell in love. I wish the “doctor” thing hadn’t come up. He said “nurse” and both should be proud if he graduates nursing school.  Nothing to pick about with these two. 

[Ms.C.]

On 4/3/2019 at 6:52 AM, aphroditewitch said:

Kate's voice is better when she is not around Luke or talking about Luke. I noticed that during the casting and wedding, her voice was fine. But during the honeymoon things shifted and her voice was different and her speech pattern was different. 

Remember Dr Pepper saying she missed the perky cheerful Kate? Dead and repulsed can humiliate...  

[gonecrackers]

20 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

Then maybe he should have spoken up when she was blaming herself. But he didn't because he enjoyed hurting her. He brought it on himself.

Brought what on himself-Having her family punish him somehow? That’s not a good place for them to go & would bring this show to even further lows. Even if he did “enjoy” her hurt - which is not at all what I saw - it would not excuse any family retribution.  I really hope they’re bigger people than that.

[aphroditewitch]

13 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

What digs were those? I don't remember him saying anything that I would perceive as a dig, but maybe I'm forgetting?

On the honeymoon, when she didn't want to have the mud painted on her, he put her down over that. When he met her dog, he had a fit because he refused to believe that the dog was house trained. His negative reaction when she said she had lived with an ex, even though he also had lived with an ex. When he lied about their kiss at the alter, she told him that wasn't what happened and he rolled his eyes. The flashback revealed she was telling the truth.  When he put her down during the kissing game and lied about it later during the car. It happened a lot. 

7 minutes ago, gonecrackers said:

Brought what on himself-Having her family punish him somehow? That’s not a good place for them to go & would bring this show to even further lows. Even if he did “enjoy” her hurt - which is not at all what I saw - it would not excuse any family retribution.  I really hope they’re bigger people than that.

After he acted so abysmally towards her, he can't expect kindness. He punished himself by burning the bridge by being such a douche about it. He could have said something about how it wasn't her fault and they both made mistakes, but he chose not to. 

[Ms.C.]

On 4/3/2019 at 8:46 AM, discoprincessthe2 said:

Yes, sexuality is a spectrum. Regardless of whether or not Luke is gay, it was just so enraging that Luke dragged this "mockery" out as far as it went. Will may not be liked by a number of people on the boards, but at least he had enough integrity to sleep with Jasmine if he knew full well that it wasn't going to work. (Side note: He probably wasn't really that attracted to Jasmine either, but at least he didn't just blurt that out.) Luke should have stopped after the first time when he felt "repulsed and dead inside". Yes, I grudgingly acknowledge that Kate shares some responsibility for going back for more, but I believe Luke should assume the lion's share of the blame. (Side note: In contrast, even though Dave from Dallas knew that he didn't consider Amber to be "wife" material, he didn't report being "repulsed" by her when he was sleeping with her every. single. day. )

Had to respond.  I wish they’d stayed together. At reunion as brunette she was beautiful. Had she not manifested all that insecurity day after effing day, they could have been happy I believe.  I hope she realizes now what a neurotic case she was.  And I couldn’t believe she didn’t know how to cook but I liked them together. And they sure seemed matched sexually. And they had similar energy.  

Sorry. I liked them. Kate not the problem. She committed and tried to make it work. Part of contract. I don’t get Luke or his mother at all

[gonecrackers]

2 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

After he acted so abysmally towards her, he can't expect kindness. He punished himself by burning the bridge by being such a douche about it. He could have said something about how it wasn't her fault and they both made mistakes, but he chose not to. 

I’m not sure I understand what bridge he’s burned- they didn’t know each other before the show so they can all just walk away again now. I’m not even sure how such a suggestion of family retribution came up unless I missed something. 

[aphroditewitch]

4 minutes ago, gonecrackers said:

I’m not sure I understand what bridge he’s burned- they didn’t know each other before the show so they can all just walk away again now. I’m not even sure how such a suggestion of family retribution came up unless I missed something. 

Jasmine, Will, and Jasmine's dad are all Lincoln graduates. They are all part of that alumni network. So yes, it is a potential burned bridge because Jasmine's ties run deeper than Will's. It would be a significant loss. And professionally that would be a major loss for him. Which I mentioned upthread. I'm not suggesting that her family beat him up or anything. 

[kanona29]

I do agree that Will is nothing to write home about, but he is not about to lose some Lincoln alumni status cred over Jasmine and her dad.  To be frank, nobody is thinking/worrying about Will.

He is too busy napping his life away. lol

All I wanted was for Kate to leave the show like a BOSS. So, I'm hoping she's going to come thru and bring that tea on the reunion. 

I need you to bring that fire, Kate!!! 

And I'm happy K&K decided to stay married.  I think they can make it work if they're both willing. 

Stephanie would make a great partner to any man. She is so supportive and slow to anger. AJ would be a fool to mess this up.

Edited April 5, 2019 by kanona29

[aphroditewitch]

4 minutes ago, kanona29 said:

I do agree that Will is nothing to write home about, but he is not about to lose some Lincoln alumni status cred over Jasmine and her dad.  To be frank, nobody is thinking/worrying about Will.

He is too busy napping his life away. lol

It is not about status cred. it is about job referrals and other various career opportunities that he will potentially lose out on. Oh wait, he is eventually going to continue talking about how he wants to coach basketball somewhere. 

[Soup333]

This whole Will thing is getting ridiculous at this point honestly. He and Jasmine weren’t a match but I can’t even imagine how twisted her father would have to be to try and have him blackballed over a reality show marriage. 

[aphroditewitch]

3 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

This whole Will thing is getting ridiculous at this point honestly. He and Jasmine weren’t a match but I can’t even imagine how twisted her father would have to be to try and have him blackballed over a reality show marriage. 

It is not about the length of the marriage though. Will went out of his way to humiliate her on tv. He did not have to do that. He could have taken his share of the blame. Instead he sat there gleefully enjoying how upset she was. So yeah, I could see them having him frozen out over the humiliation. He was thoughtless in how he treated her. He should have thought about the potential consequences and taken his share of the blame when saying he wanted the divorce. he could have said they were not right for each other which was true. Instead he went with the  communication lie. 

[aphroditewitch]

1 hour ago, Ms.C. said:

Had to respond.  I wish they’d stayed together. At reunion as brunette she was beautiful. Had she not manifested all that insecurity day after effing day, they could have been happy I believe.  I hope she realizes now what a neurotic case she was.  And I couldn’t believe she didn’t know how to cook but I liked them together. And they sure seemed matched sexually. And they had similar energy.  

The show played up Amber's insecurity. She never could have been happy with Dave because he was a jerk towards her. 

[Yeah No]

8 hours ago, lids said:

The whole premise of the book He’s Just Not That Into You is built around this scenario. I’m not going to repeat it because the book gets used to death but the exert is here: https://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/features/just-not-that-into-you

In the end, I agree with you but men build companies and corporations. They start wars and make universal peace treaties. If they wanted to figure out how to communicate with someone they are attracted to, we would all know. Even if they failed miserably. Will was not trying. If it was just effort and communication that Will was looking for, when Jas was crying and saying she wanted to stay married, he would have acquiesced. He didn’t want to try.

Also, we all agree that Luke is using “Kate has a drinking problem” as an excuse. It’s a red herring period. I’m just saying Will is using something similar with the whole elusive communication issue.

I'm with you 100%.  I'm not buying the excuses.  My own husband would never have done that to me or any woman.  I myself had men tell me up front that they were not looking for what I was looking for, or whatever code language that gets the point across.  And yeah, after a few hopeful dates that hurt, but nothing like the way it hurts after being put through what Kate and Jasmine were put through.  What I (and my husband) don't understand is why Will or any other guy (or even woman) that engages in this behavior doesn't just have a frank discussion with their partner about how they feel about them.  Especially in this situation when they have a decision day looming it would seem even more important for them to know that they are on the same page.  Why the cat and mouse games?  Is production or the "experts" keeping them from revealing that they're really not into the other person and pushing them to keep "open to the possibility that their feelings might change"?  If I were in that situation I'd be nailing Will's ass to the wall asking him point blank about how he feels about me.  And if he gave me that BS stuff he gave in his talking heads I would see through it and know I was being schmoozed and lead on.  

Of course, I'm a New Yorker and a straight shooter so that's me.  But it's excruciating to watch women just take that stuff and not try to get to the bottom of where the relationship is going.  I also wonder if production tells them that they're a great match with a lot of potential, and to keep hopeful that things might change, hence going against their better judgment.  In that case, the show would be just as much to blame and quite honestly I wouldn't put it past them to do this.  It sounds a lot like what they tell them in their little on-camera exchanges.  I suppose they don't want to discourage anyone to the point of giving up or people would drop out and they wouldn't have a show.  But it's still not right.

[LuvMyShows]

1 hour ago, aphroditewitch said:

Jasmine, Will, and Jasmine's dad are all Lincoln graduates. They are all part of that alumni network. So yes, it is a potential burned bridge because Jasmine's ties run deeper than Will's. It would be a significant loss. And professionally that would be a major loss for him. Which I mentioned upthread. I'm not suggesting that her family beat him up or anything. 

As we know, Will, Jasmine, and her father went to Lincoln.  So for real, do you have some insider information about all the other Lincoln people in their lives (relatives, family friends, and mentors), because you assert with absolute certainty that Jasmine's Lincoln ties are deeper than Will's.  

You also must have insider information about the alumni network at Lincoln, and how involved they are in the life of Will and Jasmine, and what the perceptions are of all these people, in order to have such strong suspicions that Will (and only Will, not Jasmine) potentially face a "major loss" professionally.

[Yeah No]

7 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Unpopular opinion here I'm guessing.  If in fact Will was not attracted to Jasmine at all, even initially (which I actually do not agree with, but I'll go along with it), then there is no way on earth that he could tell her that.  And why is that?  Because if any of his lack of attraction was about her size, or if it was even perceived by others that the reason might have to do with her size, then he would be banished to the rings of hell for all eternity, by Jasmine and the experts, and many many many many women on social media (and I'm guessing by some of the women in this forum).  He was not lying when he mentioned communication as a problem.  Heck, many people here commented on her poor communication with him.  So he went with one of the reasons that he didn't want to stay married to her (a major one as we saw in their interactions), and chose to stick with just that one.  We can speculate all we want about what his real reasons were, but that is all it is, speculation, because he didn't put out any other words to be slammed for later and I say good for him..   

He didn't have to tell her why he was not into her, he just had to tell her that he was not into her.  He could have been as vague and diplomatic as he wanted, as long as he got the message across.  At least that fact would come out in the end anyway.  He didn't have to over-share like I've noticed a lot of young people do these days.   He could have said stuff like I heard when I was young, like  "We want different things".  He doesn't have to elaborate.  Him not being too open doesn't mean he's lying either.  If it was her appearance not telling her that would really be to spare her feelings and in that case it's OK.  I don't think a guy ever told me he didn't find me attractive.  He may have said he needed more of a "connection" or a "spark" than we had.  The guy wouldn't have to hit her over the head and go for the jugular in order to get the point across.  I suppose diplomacy like this is getting to be a lost art.  

[Ms.C.]

And Sam truly loved him. That was for me the saddest of all

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, aphroditewitch said:

On the honeymoon, when she didn't want to have the mud painted on her, he put her down over that. When he met her dog, he had a fit because he refused to believe that the dog was house trained. His negative reaction when she said she had lived with an ex, even though he also had lived with an ex. When he lied about their kiss at the alter, she told him that wasn't what happened and he rolled his eyes. The flashback revealed she was telling the truth.  When he put her down during the kissing game and lied about it later during the car. It happened a lot. 

After he acted so abysmally towards her, he can't expect kindness. He punished himself by burning the bridge by being such a douche about it. He could have said something about how it wasn't her fault and they both made mistakes, but he chose not to. 

I don't know that I even remember some of that stuff but I did come away feeling like Will is one of those quiet people that actually gets away with being selfish and unkind just because people don't even notice how they are really being abusive.  They mistake the quiet, placid exterior for being flexible and agreeable and that's not the case.  Then they don't even see some of the negative behavior.  I'm pretty adept at spotting people like this being a card-carrying introvert myself and having experience with others like him.  I never thought Will was that great of a person to be honest.  Oh yeah he has lofty ambitions, yada, yada, but I don't remember him showing Jasmine any kind of human warmth or kindness on camera other than sharing some humor with her here and there.  Even in bed he was giving off "stay away" vibes.  I got the feeling she wanted to get closer to him, but it was like he was detached and checked out right away.  So the experts were right that he didn't put in any effort.  He had decided pretty early on that Jasmine was not for him and just mentally checked out and waited out the 8 weeks.  Kind of like what Danielle did with David in that season.  And I think that behavior is pretty unkind, to be honest.  There are other ways to handle that situation with grace, but Will was not emotionally mature enough to do it.  I found him to be somewhat clueless in relationships.  I think I can see the reason he's still single.  Of course I also see the reasons Jasmine is still single too.

[love2lovebadtv]

On 4/3/2019 at 1:01 AM, scruffy73 said:

Well since we havs the whole “relationship with a man” convo with Kate and Luke I’m going with no. I would like to see Will and Jas give it another shot outside of the eyes of the show. She has to get that “man pays the bills” fantasy out of her head then they can truly see EACH OTHER for who the really are. He did say he felt like she was his best friend so there is some foundation there.

Do you feel like the other components of Jasmine's ideal gender roles are a fantasy that she needs to get out of her head? Or just the part about the bills? She already agreed to a different financial split with Will. But there were other things she wants, too, and I'm not convinced that those ideals aren't really a part of her. A lot of people focused on the financial part of what she said but forget there was more to it. She doesn't seem to value what Will brings to the table and Will doesn't value what she brings to the table either. But does something like that change as you grow closer to a person? Like you said, there was a fondness there. Apologies for the rant. Your post reminded me that One of my original reasons for being drawn to this show is that I found it interesting to learn about human nature, evolving vs settling, and developing organically vs show constraints. I wish it hadn't turned into a producer driven mockery. 

[watchingtvaddict]

1 hour ago, love2lovebadtv said:

Do you feel like the other components of Jasmine's ideal gender roles are a fantasy that she needs to get out of her head? Or just the part about the bills? She already agreed to a different financial split with Will. But there were other things she wants, too, and I'm not convinced that those ideals aren't really a part of her. A lot of people focused on the financial part of what she said but forget there was more to it. She doesn't seem to value what Will brings to the table and Will doesn't value what she brings to the table either. But does something like that change as you grow closer to a person? Like you said, there was a fondness there. Apologies for the rant. Your post reminded me that One of my original reasons for being drawn to this show is that I found it interesting to learn about human nature, evolving vs settling, and developing organically vs show constraints. I wish it hadn't turned into a producer driven mockery. 

I feel like the "experts" are failing the contestants. They need to explain to Jasmine and Will why they paired them together and help to interpret what their spouses are saying. Jasmine wanted a man to support her. Will seems to be a very caring and thoughtful man. Jasmine sees support as monetary. If the experts led them in exercises that helped them see a different way of being maybe they could be together. But, what happened is Jasmine believe Will wasn't driven (saw him as lazy) and Will saw Jasmine as a gold digger. 

[gonecrackers]

In the real world it would be expected Will should be upfront or walk away immediately, but this show isn't the real world. The matching, filming, production in their ears, & editing up the wazoo skews not just how we see the people & events but also how the participants are going to react in these situations, which I bet is probably much different than they would had it been natural & private.

[Yeah No]

I don't think Jasmine was a "gold digger" at all.  She was an educated, employed, independent woman that I read actually owned her own home - Truly an achievement for any single female, especially an African American one considering the obstacles.  She just had certain financial expectations of a man in a relationship.  She's not the warmest nor brightest person on the planet and she has some outdated expectations of men, but she is far from being a "gold digger".  And I don't really think Will thought that about her.  If he did, he was far off the mark.  He probably thought she had financial expectations of him that he didn't want to fulfill, sure, I agree with that.  But I don't think any of that stuff would have mattered as much to Will at all if they clicked on an emotional and physical level.  Like Keith/Christine or AJ/Steph, they would have tried to find a way to work out their differing expectations about the mundane stuff of life.  Would it have been easy?  No, but nothing worthwhile is ever that easy, and no couple agrees 100% about everything.  Besides, Jasmine was on record saying she was willing to work out the finances more equitably.  She even acknowledged needing to be more flexible on that.  That's a point that has been completely overlooked.  So I don't buy that this could not have been worked out if there was any spark at all between them.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Yeah No