S14.E14: Ouroboros

[raven]

Quote

Sam and Dean enlist the help of Rowena to track down a demi-god who feasts on human flesh; the challenge of keeping Michael at bay is proving to be more difficult than originally anticipated.

Airdate 2019.03.07

Back from hiatus!

You know you (probably) want it.

[Casseiopeia]

Huh...

[Lady Calypso]

Well, that's one way to end the Michael storyline. Honestly, I'm ok with it. It concluded two storylines (Michael and Jack's grace) fairly well, so that they can focus the final five episodes on other things. Sure, it feels random for it to be in this 14th episode, but I'm ok with them deciding to move on. 

Dean has been a pro for so long with holding Michael back as long as he did, even sacrificing sleep to keep him at bay. So that's why I'm glad for the Michael stuff to be done. I would have been just as ok if Michael decided to pick another vessel and he was still around because I could see Michael being annoyed that he was being held back by Dean Winchester and deciding that he lost the round with Dean and to move on. It goes to show how powerful Dean and his mind is if he was able to hold Michael at bay for weeks like this.

I am also just fine with Jack destroying Michael and getting his grace back. They were really stuck between a rock and a hard place with Jack, and I didn't like the whole soul thing with Jack, so that ends that annoying storyline for me. Plus, Jack declaring himself a Winchester? How badass was that? Jack sees himself as a Winchester and ended his speech on it, which was fantastic. 

Cas/Jack's talk in the bunker before everything went to shit was well done as well. It does imply a new road for Jack to go down, and I have no idea what it is.

Rowena was pretty solid in this episode.

Honestly, I DID like this episode. I was fairly content with everything that happened...especially since this episode got rid of all the annoying hunters. Sorry, Maggie. You were pretty alright, but you weren't really needed at all so....

[BabySpinach]

WHAT. THE. FUCK. Who plotted this, a drunken chimpanzee? The Big Bad is dead already? What about Billie's books? Literally the same writer for this and 14.10, WTFFFFF....

What was the point of all the angst about Dean going in the coffin if Nougat Sue was going to steal the story right out from under him? Wow, I knew they'd likely fuck up this perfect setup, but I didn't think they'd do it THIS badly...

[Katy M]

I can't understand why they didn't compromise in the first place.  PUt Dean in the coffin, but don't throw it in the ocean while they look for another way.

Gorgon dude was totally disgusting and I'm probably going to have eyeball plucking nightmares tonight.  Blech.

I was wondering how they were going to kill Michael since apparently you need an archangel blade wielded by an archangel and he's the only archangel.  So, they made up a new way.  After I typed that I realized they probably should have had him kill himself.

I'm glad the bunkerful of hunters are dead.  Except for Maggie.  I liked Maggie.  But, it was weird that there were 500,000 hunters in there some times and no hunters at other times.  It's like they all had to hunt (separately, I assume) at the same time.  I mean there were exactly 0 hunters in there last week. Sure, you could say that they disappeared because of the wish, but they weren't there before the wish either.  So, since they are now dead, we don't have to worry about them anymore, and I call that a win.

12 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Honestly, I DID like this episode. I was fairly content with everything that happened...especially since this episode got rid of all the annoying hunters. Sorry, Maggie. You were pretty alright, but you weren't really needed at all so....

Look at that.  Nobody usually has the same opinions I do, but after I looked back after posting my thing, I see that you posted this very same sentiment.  Hunters, bad.  Maggie, OK.  I hope Jack doesn't decide to resurrect them all.  

[trudysmom]

I enjoyed the humor, Jack as the dog, and his yelp when his temp was taken, lol. The Gorgon was a dark villain, something new.   The opening scene setup was gory but interesting.  Honestly I was not at all surprised with the way they took out Michael and re-angelized  Jack.  They wrote themselves into a corner and just aren't good enough to write themselves out.  I'm okay with that, given my low expectations of the stories lately.  

They went to the AU to save Mary and Jack.  After all that's happened, that's all that's left.  (Asshat NOT!Bobby doesn't count. )  All those hunters who came here to get away from Michael's wrath, dead by his hand anyway.  

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Look at that.  Nobody usually has the same opinions I do, but after I looked back after posting my thing, I see that you posted this very same sentiment.  Hunters, bad.  Maggie, OK.  I hope Jack doesn't decide to resurrect them all.  

Oh....I didn't even consider Jack resurrecting them all. Hopefully that doesn't happen...unless he wants to resurrect just Maggie. I could handle just Maggie.

[Aeryn13]

This was an utter disgrace. And from Yockey no less. Nougat-Sue can fucking suck it. 

Dean having no part in a hasty Michael-kill? Makes the entire Season so far absurd.  

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

I enjoyed the humor, Jack as the dog, and his yelp when his temp was taken, lol.

The plan didn't make a whole lot of sense, though.  How did they know the vet would leave Jack alone in the exam room.  One would think she would have done her thing and then brought the dog back out.  Rowena probably could have just turned herself invisible, right?  But, yeah, it was cute.

[rue721]

Wasn't Mary already on her way back to the bunker hours before the fight with Michael? So where was she? 

I hope she and AU!Bobby weren't hunting together, because imagine the pair of them walking in right at the end of the episode with all of his people dead on the bunker floor and Jack flashing his new angel wings everywhere. Wow.

Anyway, that whole Michael plotline seems totally pointless in retrospect. But I'm glad that Jack has his grace back. And it was nice to see him and Rowena again.

[bettername2come]

The Gorgon reminded me of a young Freddie Prinze Jr. I find this very weird.

I loved Jack's little speech at the end. I was so proud to hear him call himself a Winchester. I think this was a very strong episode for him and Rowena. I liked those little moments of her genuinely caring about them all, especially when she admitted to worrying about Jack. And she immediately dropped everything to go hunting with the boys and decided to make her and Sam a couple for their cover story? My "Sam kills her by the Sam Winchester Sex Curse" theory grows more plausible every day.

I can't really fault them for having Jack take Michael's grace and kill him. It's a fairly logical way to go. But I don't want this to result in Michael somehow taking over Jack or Jack becoming the Big Bad. Rowena possessed by Michael was fun.

[DeeDee79]

I didn't watch live and haven't yet watched the 300th episode but it's disheartening to hear that Michael was killed off ( not commenting on the end of Dean's story arc...*sigh* ) . I know that he was the big bad but I really hate that the writers have made angels as evil or more so as the demons and have been killing them off left and right. Besides Cas has there been a good angel that is still around? It's absurd that there are countless demons milling about while Heaven is in danger of shutting down because so many angels have been killed and so many of them have been corrupt. What the hell, show???!!!!

[Pondlass1]

So episodes are back to everyone being stupid again. 🙄 Still, we had a good run for 3 episodes.... 

Bye Michael. You never really had a chance to shine, not with with these writers.

[Advance35]

It was the smaller parts that made the whole worthwhile for me.

Jack's "What's A.V. Club?"

Cas explains.

Dean points at Cas. "He's A.V. Club." lol.

Also, I don't think we've ever heard Castiel talk about the mortality. of the Winchesters.  We know at times, he admires mortals but the nuance of his outlook, in terms of the future and his long spanning existence, a large part, that will be without Dean and Sam.  It was surprisingly poignant and strangely inspiring.

I don't think I've ever seen Sam have chemistry with ANY of his love interest, it's so typical, he would have AWESOME chemistry with Rowena.  Them pretending to be a married couple, fretting over the dog, Rowena picking at Sam about how Jack was saved.   They make it into the hall of fame of Supernatural dynamics for me.  Right up there with Dean/Castiel, Dean/Crowley, Crowley/Castiel.

Rowena's confidence that Michael couldn't kill her because fate has decreed it will be Sam.  Then saying "It makes dinner parties a little awkward but...." lol.

The Ghoul was absolutely chilling.  I thought what he was cooking in the beginning looked really good, until the camera pulled back.  Him slapping Castiel twice made me lol, though it shouldn't have.

Michael was a little anti-climatic but what are you going to do.

I don't always get to watch live but this was an enjoyable episode for me.

Also, the show is still trending World Wide an hour later.  Say what you will about the writing, this show's characters are iconic.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Advance35

[Bergamot]

Well, they had the foundation of a great story with Michael in Dean; I thought he was the most interesting villain the show has had in years. But of course they had to nip all that in the bud, in order to focus on the character who in their eyes is the star of the show, Jack (and I'm sure the completely lame and regurgitated return of Lucifer as a villain.)

And no, Jack shouting that he is a Winchester does not make him one. The show is no longer about the Winchesters.

5 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

So episodes are back to everyone being stupid again. 🙄 Still, we had a good run for 3 episodes.... 

Bye Michael. You never really had a chance to shine, not with with these writers.

Yes, I agree, Pondlass, I did enjoy those 3 episodes. The way it looks now that will probably be the end of my enjoyment of the season. And no, the Michael storyline never was going to get the attention it deserved. Not with it being a Dean story. What a waste.

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I don't think I've ever seen Sam have chemistry with ANY of his love interest, it's so typical, he would have AWESOME chemistry with Rowena.

This actually makes a weird kind of sense to me. Even when Sam seemed to loath her in season 10 they still had an interesting chemistry. It wouldn't be the worst thing for him to have a friends with benefits thing with Rowena. Since she can't die she wouldn't be affected by "peen of doom" as I've seen it referred to throughout fandom. Plus Rowena is very entertaining so it wouldn't be a hardship to give her a reason to be around a bit more 😊

[Myrelle]

Wow.

If Jensen Ackles signs on to this show again, it has to be because of the $ because he's going nowhere creatively with this bunch of asshat writers.

I've come to like Ruth Connell but her turn as Michael was a joke-so non-threatening. 

Same for the NougatBaby-a joke, too.

One of the worst episodes of the series because of the total and complete waste of potential.

But the saddest thing is that this became a completely predictable ending to the Michael!Dean storyline with Dabb/Singer at the helm.

It's downright embarrassing how far this show has fallen with this episode. They really should put it out of it's misery.

[Pondlass1]

Well at least the insipid Maggie and annoying hunters cluttering up the bunker are dead.  Thanks Michael 👏🏻

[ILoveReading]

Rowena is dumb if she thinks she can only be killed by Sam.

Tonight proved that Billie's books are absolutely worthless.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

And no, Jack shouting that he is a Winchester does not make him one. The show is no longer about the Winchesters.

THIS. Say it louder for those in the back. These days everyone is family if they spend more than a day or so with Sam and Dean. 

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Rowena is dumb if she thinks she can only be killed by Sam.

Tonight proved that Billie's books are absolutely worthless.

So true.

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

Well at least the insipid Maggie and annoying hunters cluttering up the bunker are dead.  Thanks Michael 👏🏻

The only good thing that came out of this one.

[BabySpinach]

If Michael is truly dead, then this will have been a complete thematic and narrative failure on every level. The critical 14.10 will be rendered completely moot, the angsting over the coffin totally pointless. Not to mention how ridiculous it would be if Dean's death books don't get followed up on at all. I can't wrap my head around Yockey totally nullifying his own setup like this, so I'll hold out a bit of hope that there's something bigger going on. That hope is not going to stop me from going into hibernation mode until then, though.

I may actively loathe Jack now. Getting back his god power was exactly the wrong direction to take his character. He was learning his own value as a human and gaining some much-needed wisdom, and all of that progress has now been rendered pointless as well. And I couldn't be paid to care about his potentially going dark/losing his soul. Just shove him in the box and get it over with. Seriously, fuck this insufferable Sue. If Michael really is dead, then some 2-year bland woobie has just stolen one of the leads' longest running and most important stories. Yockey, do we need to perform an exorcism on the demon that seems to have possessed your typing fingers? 

ETA: And another thing! Dean holding Michael in his head served NO PURPOSE. Nothing was moved forward, nothing was accomplished, nothing was learned. Holy shitballs, this is BAAADDDD.

Edited March 8, 2019 by BabySpinach

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Well at least the insipid Maggie and annoying hunters cluttering up the bunker are dead.

Finally! 

[Aeryn13]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Wow.

If Jensen Ackles signs on to this show again, it has to be because of the $ because he's going nowhere creatively with this bunch of asshat writers.

I've come to like Ruth Connell but her turn as Michael was a joke-so non-threatening. 

Same for the NougatBaby-a joke, too.

One of the worst episodes of the series because of the total and complete waste of potential.

But the saddest thing is that this became a completely predictable ending to the Michael!Dean storyline with Dabb/Singer at the helm.

It's downright embarrassing how far this show has fallen with this episode. They really should put it out of it's misery.

It was pretty much spoiled Michael was getting out but so anticlimactically killing him off? And handing it to the nougat Baby of all things? Imagine if in Season 2 some random bystander had killed Azazel in episode 12 or so. This is like this. Does the actor for Jack have good blackmail pics of Dabb and Singer or something? This is absurd.    

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Well at least the insipid Maggie and annoying hunters cluttering up the bunker are dead.  Thanks Michael 👏🏻

Hopeuflly its also the end of Supreme Leader Chief Sue.

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, BabySpinach said:

Yockey, do we need to perform an exorcism on the demon that seems to have possessed your typing fingers? 

Given his track record with good Dean characterization this is very disheartening.

Just now, ILoveReading said:

Hopeuflly its also the end of Supreme Leader Chief Sue.

And hopefully we won't have to hear that moniker ever again.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It was pretty much spoiled Michael was getting out but so anticlimactically killing him off? And handing it to the nougat Baby of all things? Imagine if in Season 2 some random bystander had killed Azazel in episode 12 or so. This is like this. Does the actor for Jack have good blackmail pics of Dabb and Singer or something? This is absurd.    

As "meh" as I am on Jack I'd rather he get this instead of Nickifer. Small victories I guess.😖

[SueB]

I LOVE the dynamic of Rowena and the Boys.  I’m rewatching again right away —- just delightful.  

Quick thoughts: I don’t buy that Jack is all good and Michael is dead.  Could be wrong but it feels like a trick.  

More after rewatch.  

Samwena FTW!!!

[gonzosgirrl]

56 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

WHAT. THE. FUCK. Who plotted this, a drunken chimpanzee? The Big Bad is dead already? What about Billie's books? Literally the same writer for this and 14.10, WTFFFFF....

What was the point of all the angst about Dean going in the coffin if Nougat Sue was going to steal the story right out from under him? Wow, I knew they'd likely fuck up this perfect setup, but I didn't think they'd do it THIS badly...

I can't sum up my feelings any better than this. He managed to end Dean's story line while similtaneously making him too dumb to understand big werrrds or actual mythology, and too weak to keep Michael under wraps. At least he's still a badass figh... oh right. Never mind.

Dabb really is rewriting the series in his own image. He will have his spinoff one way or the other. Welcome to Nougatnatural.

On the bright side, no more of the Chief's motley crew of plucky hunters to clutter up the bunker? Yeah. I just. don't. care.

Edited March 8, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[OrigamiNightmare]

54 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

WHAT. THE. FUCK. Who plotted this, a drunken chimpanzee? The Big Bad is dead already? What about Billie's books? Literally the same writer for this and 14.10, WTFFFFF....

What was the point of all the angst about Dean going in the coffin if Nougat Sue was going to steal the story right out from under him? Wow, I knew they'd likely fuck up this perfect setup, but I didn't think they'd do it THIS badly...

Nougat Sue! Bwah I love it!

[ILoveReading]

So it looks like Dabb's spoiler

Spoiler

of "Michael not being idle in Dean's head" was literally just Michael banging on the door

Tagging this just incase there is a more going one but I doublt

Edited March 8, 2019 by ILoveReading

[ster1]

This whole season has just been so pointless. Michael turning those monsters was pointless. Michael possessing Dean was pointless. Michael wanting to hunt down God was pointless. The only storylines with any throughline have been nougat baby's magical consumption and Nick's weird Lucifer thing. But I guess that's not surprising since Dabb obviously sees Supernatural as the Jack Show, with a side helping of assorted side characters. The brothers and Cas are just carrots to pull in the viewers (and to serve as occasional plot devices) but they're largely irrelevant to the actual story.  If Dabb dislikes writing so much for TFW, then I think it's time for the show to end. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by ster1

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, BabySpinach said:

WHAT. THE. FUCK. Who plotted this, a drunken chimpanzee? The Big Bad is dead already? What about Billie's books? Literally the same writer for this and 14.10, WTFFFFF....

What was the point of all the angst about Dean going in the coffin if Nougat Sue was going to steal the story right out from under him? Wow, I knew they'd likely fuck up this perfect setup, but I didn't think they'd do it THIS badly...

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It was pretty much spoiled Michael was getting out but so anticlimactically killing him off? And handing it to the nougat Baby of all things? Imagine if in Season 2 some random bystander had killed Azazel in episode 12 or so. This is like this. Does the actor for Jack have good blackmail pics of Dabb and Singer or something? This is absurd.    

It's all mind boggling.

I'd kill for someone to ask Jensen what he thinks of the writing for the Michael!Dean storyline at this weekend's convention.

Or if he felt that he was allowed or able to sink his teeth into the character as he said he so wanted to do when this Dean storyline was first brought up to him.  

[Bergamot]

6 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

If Michael is truly dead, then this will have been a complete thematic and narrative failure on every level. The critical 14.10 will be rendered completely moot, the angsting over the coffin totally pointless.

At least Dean got to yell at Sam and Cas about how they shouldn't have stopped him from going into the box. His unapologetic anger was a moment of satisfaction for me. Your rage is my rage, Dean!

11 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I may actively loathe Jack now. Getting back his god power was exactly the wrong direction to take his character. He was learning his own value as a human and gaining some much-needed wisdom, and all of that progress has now been rendered pointless as well.

Jack never interested me as a character; the description "bland woobie" has always fit him perfectly. And now that he has been revealed to be powerful enough to destroy the archangel Michael without even breaking a sweat, what is the point of even having hunters like Dean and Sam around? Jack can easily take care of any supernatural threat.

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dabb really is rewriting the series in his own image. He will have his spinoff one way or the other.

Exactly! But you know what? If this was the first season of Supernatural and he was in charge, it would not have lasted past that season. Nothing of what excited the fans and made them fall in love with the show in that first season can be found in his version of the show. He is just trying to ride the coattails of something he had nothing to do with creating.

[Mulva]

Loved this episode!  Jack is a real asset to the show.  Rowena and Sam make a cute couple.  It was a great ending to the Michael storyline, IMHO.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Mulva

[Cambion]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Well, that's one way to end the Michael storyline. Honestly, I'm ok with it. It concluded two storylines (Michael and Jack's grace) fairly well, so that they can focus the final five episodes on other things. Sure, it feels random for it to be in this 14th episode, but I'm ok with them deciding to move on. 

Dean has been a pro for so long with holding Michael back as long as he did, even sacrificing sleep to keep him at bay. So that's why I'm glad for the Michael stuff to be done. I would have been just as ok if Michael decided to pick another vessel and he was still around because I could see Michael being annoyed that he was being held back by Dean Winchester and deciding that he lost the round with Dean and to move on. It goes to show how powerful Dean and his mind is if he was able to hold Michael at bay for weeks like this.

I am also just fine with Jack destroying Michael and getting his grace back. They were really stuck between a rock and a hard place with Jack, and I didn't like the whole soul thing with Jack, so that ends that annoying storyline for me. Plus, Jack declaring himself a Winchester? How badass was that? Jack sees himself as a Winchester and ended his speech on it, which was fantastic. 

Cas/Jack's talk in the bunker before everything went to shit was well done as well. It does imply a new road for Jack to go down, and I have no idea what it is.

Rowena was pretty solid in this episode.

Honestly, I DID like this episode. I was fairly content with everything that happened...especially since this episode got rid of all the annoying hunters. Sorry, Maggie. You were pretty alright, but you weren't really needed at all so....

ITA.  There are things I would have like to see, but all in all, I liked it.  I'm not that sad to see Michael go, even in Dean,, as interesting as that was, Mike is just a one-note character, so not much to be going on with there.  I'm very glad to see Jack do something other than make doe eyes in a corner.  I loved how he argued about saving Dean (nice to see someone trying to protect Dean in a - mostly - unselfish way), and I'm glad they figured out how to get Jack some grace.  No more sick Jack, which, though I mostly like the character, was really making me annoyed with him.  They were playing him like a girl with consumption in an 18th century novel .

I also loved that he called himself a Winchester as if it was the best thing in the world.  🙂

Edited March 8, 2019 by Cambion
Because it was the girl who had consumption, not the novel

[ZennyKenny]

Well that story arc ended... abruptly.

I feel like better writers would use the "Gorgon can't see angels" angle as a hint and a loophole to explain why Billie didn't see Jack killing Michael.

Honestly though as soon as Jack killed Michael I turned to my wife said "oooooh, I know a couple of people who are going to be super pissed that Dean didn't get the kill!

But it made logical sense to me. Dean had pretty much no choice but to take it all on himself, and Jack got to help. I see that as a good thing; Dean deserved help.

Question though: did that kill off the rest of Jack's soul? I mean I see that he got Michael's grace, but does that restore his soul or are those separate things? Cos now I'm wondering if we're going to have to deal with a soulless Jack now.

Thank you for not killing Rowena.

Screw you for killing Maggie. I guess that's what I get for letting my guard down and starting to like a character that isn't the core 4.

What are they going to do for the remainder of the episodes? There's like 8 left, right? They gonna pull another random monster out of their ass like the Steins or the Mother of All Monsters? 

[BabySpinach]

The problem with just looking at it as a good thing that Michael is now dead and Jack isn't sick anymore is that these aren't real people. I care way more about a compelling and well-told story than the characters' personal well-being. Yeah, it's nice and all that our protagonists are in a better place now, but the tradeoff is complete garbage storytelling. Michael's setup and cool motivation will have served absolutely nothing. Dean's True Vessel storyline won't get any kind of thematically satisfying resolution or outcome. 

That is, of course, if Michael actually is dead, which I still have an inkling of a doubt about. How this season ends will entirely dictate my overall feelings toward it.

But regardless, fuck Jack. Seriously, fuck that kid. He's a complete black hole of creativity and pulls in everyone around him to his rock-bottom level of suckage.

[Myrelle]

21 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Jack never interested me as a character; the description "bland woobie" has always fit him perfectly. And now that he has been revealed to be powerful enough to destroy the archangel Michael without even breaking a sweat, what is the point of even having hunters like Dean and Sam around? Jack can easily take care of any supernatural threat.

This. So much.

Nougat Sue, indeed,

4 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

The problem with just looking at it as a good thing that Michael is now dead and Jack isn't sick anymore is that these aren't real people. I care way more about a compelling and well-told story than the characters' personal well-being. Yeah, it's nice and all that our protagonists are in a better place now, but the tradeoff is complete garbage storytelling. Michael's setup and cool motivation will have served absolutely nothing. Dean's True Vessel storyline won't get any kind of thematically satisfying resolution or outcome. 

That is, of course, if Michael actually is dead, which I still have an inkling of a doubt about. How this season ends will entirely dictate my overall feelings toward it.

But regardless, fuck Jack. Seriously, fuck that kid. He's a complete black hole of creativity and pulls in everyone around him to his rock-bottom level of suckage.

+1,000 to this, too.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, Mulva said:

Loved this episode!  Jack is a real asset to the show.  Rowena and Sam make a cute couple.  It was a great ending to the Micael storyline, IMHO.

This kinda sums it all up.

[rue721]

42 minutes ago, SueB said:

Quick thoughts: I don’t buy that Jack is all good and Michael is dead.  Could be wrong but it feels like a trick. 

It did seem pretty suspicious when Jack declared that he was back to his old self. But I think Michael really is dead. They showed his essence burn into ash, and after Jack swallowed the grace his eyes glowed orange like usual, rather than Michael's ice blue.

I think that maybe Jack just burnt away his soul, too. Maybe he's all angel now and this was his swan song as a human.

I actually didn't like his "speech" to Michael. It creeped me out that he brought up being Lucifer's son. And it was a sweet sentiment to say that the Winchesters (and Cas) are his family, but I thought it was an awkward thing to say "I'm a Winchester." It felt too corporate somehow? Like they're a sports team or something. *shrug*

33 minutes ago, ster1 said:

This whole season has just been so pointless. Michael turning those monsters was pointless. Michael possessing Dean was pointless. Michael wanting to hunt down God was pointless.

There's a part of me that gets a kick out of Michael's extravagant plans turning out to be just castles in the air. It's so absurd that after all that build up, the big bad was killed off in a random episode.

Especially since he died nearly right after Cas gave that lovely speech about humans' mortality. That lovely speech notwithstanding, another angel is dead and a bunch of mortals are still kicking.

But I think that speech was probably meant to be the eulogy for Jack's humanity -- that's another reason I suspect that he's all angel now.

Anyway, I think the show was trying to be too clever by foreshadowing Michael being killed off in an anticlimactic way by having Dean "nearly" killed off in an anticlimactic way beforehand. Just a little too hokey.

Edited March 8, 2019 by rue721

[gonzosgirrl]

When is the last time they killed of the actual big bad of the season with six episodes left?  Nougat Sue has his powers back. He already took out the MOTW, saved Cas, saved Rowena by exorcising and killing Michael. I don't think there is much question about the character hierarchy on this show anymore.

Spoiler

We already know Nickifer is in play again. The Waywards still have to make their appearance. And Cas's deal and the Heaven situation still has to be addressed.

The Winchesters are irrelevant. Maybe not as irrelevant as Billie, but irrelevant just the same.

Maybe Michael can say hi to Dean's storyline when he runs across it in the Empty.

Edited March 8, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[DeeDee79]

32 minutes ago, Mulva said:

Loved this episode!  Jack is a real asset to the show.  Rowena and Sam make a cute couple.  It was a great ending to the Michael storyline, IMHO.

Interesting take. 🤨

[Cambion]

21 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

The problem with just looking at it as a good thing that Michael is now dead and Jack isn't sick anymore is that these aren't real people. I care way more about a compelling and well-told story than the characters' personal well-being. Yeah, it's nice and all that our protagonists are in a better place now, but the tradeoff is complete garbage storytelling. Michael's setup and cool motivation will have served absolutely nothing. Dean's True Vessel storyline won't get any kind of thematically satisfying resolution or outcome. 

That is, of course, if Michael actually is dead, which I still have an inkling of a doubt about. How this season ends will entirely dictate my overall feelings toward it.

But regardless, fuck Jack. Seriously, fuck that kid. He's a complete black hole of creativity and pulls in everyone around him to his rock-bottom level of suckage.

1

By the same token, I see a lot of comments about how this character or that character doesn't get what they deserve, whether good or bad.  they're not real people.  As for your comment about the storytelling, there comes a point when you have to either enjoy what you are given, or walk away because our complaints will fall on deaf writers ears.

Sure, there are lots of storylines that don't make sense, that don't do what I think they should have done, treat a character in a way I find annoying or hurtful, but how much energy am I going to waste complaining about it is my attitude.  I very much enjoy a lot of the fanfiction that corrects the mistakes we see on screen, tell the stories in ways that are closer to what I and others would like to see.  That's satisfying, even more so because it is juxtaposed against something that didn't work well for me.  

Ultimately, these characters belong to everyone who watches them, enjoys them, and cares about them.  Not just to the shows writers or the actors.  All of them share their ideas with us, and while it's too bad it isn't a better two-way street so that our ideas go back, that's the way it is.  We simply have to decide how much we're going to let it suck out of us.  

I've been involved in some very long running fandoms.  There was one, years ago, where a recurring character was completely trashed in an episode.  This wasn't a super popular character, but the trashing they got very much affected one of the regular characters.  Anyway, afterwards, on forums for that show, I opined that I like that character and wished that he had been treated better and I was very disappointed that the main character was left looking like they wanted to help but instead walked away.  I sketched out a little "gee, I wish I could see", and the next season, I saw exactly that.  Not what I expected to happen, but I really feel that someone saw that idea and decided it was good enough to go with.

So, while these writers may not work like that, I wanted to illustrate that there is a real relationship between the show and the fans.  I've seen it and been part of it in other fandoms and have in my interactions of those stars.  I haven't met anyone from SPN (and at Creations prices probably never will), but I see how they act with other fans and hear from other fans what they're like, and this is a pretty special fandom to be a part of.

So, I got off course here as I am wont to do, but I just want to say that seeing the glass half full isn't such a bad thing in this situation.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Cambion
spelling, and my lazy space bar

[ILoveReading]

The one hightlight of the episode, aside from the AU people dying, was Dean's freak out when he realized Michael was gone. 

Kudos to Mr. Ackles for once again not only spinning straw into gold, but also making the straw.

[Pondlass1]

Just watched it again. I feel like rioting in the streets 😡😡😡

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

When is the last time they killed of the actual big bad of the season with six episodes left?

Just another fake out. Just like Eve when Cas turned out to be the big bad in season 6 and Abaddon when Metatron turned out to be the big bad in season 9. This season's big bad will more than likely be Lucifer who will reemerge before the end of the season.

[BabySpinach]

16 minutes ago, Cambion said:

By the same token, I see a lot of comments about how this character or that character doesn't get what they deserve, whether good or bad.  they're not real people.  As for your comment about the storytelling, there comes a point when you have to either enjoy what you are given, or walk away because our complaints will fall on deaf writers ears.

Sure, there are lots of storylines that don't make sense, that don't do what I think they should have done, treat a character in a way I find annoying or hurtful, but how much energy am I going to waste complaining about it is my attitude.  I very much enjoy a lot of the fanfiction that corrects the mistakes we see on screen, tell the stories in ways that are closer to what I and others would like to see.  That's satisfying, even more so because it is juxtaposed against something that didn't work well for me.  

Ultimately, these characters belong to everyone who watches them, enjoys them, and cares about them.  Not just to the shows writers or the actors.  All of them share their ideas with us, and while it's too bad it isn't a better two-way street so that our ideas go back, that's the way it is.  We simply have to decide how much we're going to let it suck out of us.  

I've been involved in some very long running fandoms.  There was one, years ago, where a recurring character was completely trashed in an episode.  This wasn't a super popular character, but the trashing they got very much affected one of the regular characters.  Anyway, afterwards, on forums for that show, I opined that I like that character and wished that he had been treated better and I was very disappointed that the main character was left looking like they wanted to help but instead walked away.  I sketched out a little "gee, I wish I could see", and the next season, I saw exactly that.  Not what I expected to happen, but I really feel that someone saw that idea and decided it was good enough to go with.

So, while these writers may not work like that, I wanted to illustrate that there is a real relationship between the show and the fans.  I've seen it and been part of it in other fandoms and have in my interactions of those stars.  I haven't met anyone from SPN (and at Creations prices probably never will), but I see how they act with other fans and hear from other fans what they're like, and this is a pretty special fandom to be a part of.

So, I got off course here as I am wont to do, but I just want to say that see the glass half full isn't such a bad thing in this situation.

I mean, this IS a discussion forum. I'm glad that you have a more positive and laid back attitude to the show, but that's your prerogative. As for me, I criticize the storytelling because that's my personal angle of engagement with this show and I genuinely enjoy doing it, even when I'm being negative. This show has actually taught me a lot about effective narratives and character writing through both its successes and its failures. 

And the rules of storytelling are a little more universal than subjective opinions/preferences on individual characters. If this episode is truly the end of Michael's story, it will be an objectively bad one.  

Edited March 8, 2019 by BabySpinach

[Pondlass1]

I think the big bad is supposed to be Jack?  I don’t  know if the actor is up to it.

[ster1]

8 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

The problem with just looking at it as a good thing that Michael is now dead and Jack isn't sick anymore is that these aren't real people. I care way more about a compelling and well-told story than the characters' personal well-being. Yeah, it's nice and all that our protagonists are in a better place now, but the tradeoff is complete garbage storytelling. Michael's setup and cool motivation will have served absolutely nothing. Dean's True Vessel storyline won't get any kind of thematically satisfying resolution or outcome. 

 

Michael could have literally spent the entire season in a cereal box and it wouldn't have changed a thing.  Dean's possession meant nothing and could have been skipped entirely. The plot could have just jumped ahead to Nougat!Sue killing Michael and getting his grace just the same. 

Dabb really did rip off Kripke's mytharc, with this episode as Swan Song redux.  Except at least the original was about the brothers, not some bland supporting character.