S08.E09: One Month Down, Forever To Go

[psychoticstate]

1 minute ago, Mazzy said:

She also said in the last episode that she has developed feelings for him and that she expected them to do something on their anniversary so it isn't "fine" with her for him to not be into her.

I don't think he's obsessed with ruining her, I think his only concern is getting out of this situation and not looking bad in the process, but his attempts at that are doing the exact opposite and making him look terrible.

I've developed feelings for Luke too, only they're not very nice.  Ha ha!

I think you hit the nail on the head with your second paragraph.  Luke doesn't want to look like the bad guy.  So instead of being honest with Kate, he's being passive aggressive.  He'd do much better by telling her the truth (he's not attracted to her; he likes WOC; he likes men; whatever) and suggesting that they just try to make the best of the situation until they can gracefully bow out.  I have to wonder if, by accusing her of having a drinking problem, he's hoping she will leave him, letting her be "the bad guy." 

[aphroditewitch]

6 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

Mixed messages could be interpreted differently.  But Luke is most definitely not being honest.

Again, this is where I put a lot of blame on the "experts."  If Kate and Luke cannot contractually pack up and go, the "experts" need to step in and stop this.  It's terrible.  

Does anyone remember who it was that was pushing for Kate and Luke?   I remember that Keith and Kristine and Will and Jasmine were the 2 definites and there was a "showdown" between choose Kate and Luke and Stephanie and A.J. for the third couple.  

 I think it was Dr. Jessica who pushed for Luke and Kate. Pastor Cal was against it, IIRC. 

[psychoticstate]

1 minute ago, aphroditewitch said:

Except the feelings part was all voice-over. We don't know when she said it and whether that was her complete statement.  For all we know she was annoyed because they were supposed to film the stupid 1 month anniversary stuff and he blew it off and was being a douche about it. 

If he wasn't obsessed with ruining her, then the lies about the drinking would never have happened. 

That definitely could have been a voice over because she said exactly the same thing in the very beginning.  

1 minute ago, aphroditewitch said:

 I think it was Dr. Jessica who pushed for Luke and Kate. Pastor Cal was against it, IIRC. 

Thank you!  I remember that DJ and PC were arguing about who the third couple should be.  If it was DJ, she should be booted immediately for making such a shit choice.  Could be why she's going so much easier on Luke than everyone else.  This was her call and she royally fucked it up.  

PC was on the money with regards to Stephanie and A.J.  He can stay. 

[Mazzy]

Okay, I just rewatched the moment we are discussing about Luke's reaction to Kate saying it was okay he wasn't physically attracted to her. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links so I'm not posting it but I will if someone knows if it's okay. The clip starts right at the moment Kate says it's okay if he isn't into her.

She says it, he responds: "don't do that". She says "What? That's what it is. I'm just trying to be realistic." He stays silent and just looks at her, then tries to blow off the uncomfortable silence by giving a non-committal half-no shake of the head. Cut to her talking to the camera saying "if he's not attracted to me there's nothing I can do about that".
Cut back to them on the couch, Kate says "I have given you everything that is me and that's okay. You married a stranger and this isn't the stranger you wanted to marry so I'm just saying that's fine, just tell me..." (and she trails off not in a "just tell me, [period]" kind of way but a "just tell me [fill in the blank]" kind of way. Luke just stares, saying nothing, obv not wanting to confirm this and I can't blame the guy for that bit. No one wants to say "yeah, your'e right, I don't find you at all attractive so.... there!" right?

So Luke is staring in silence, Kate speaks again: "And then you just sit there and don't say anything!" Luke: "What do you want me to say?" Kate: "What are you thinking?! I'm trying to talk to you."

THEN, Luke goes with the "you know what bothers me, the drinking" So yeah, it's correct that EVENTUALLY he goes to his excuse line, but only after Kate pushes and pushes for what to me seems like her wanting him to tell her it isn't true that he's not attracted to her and when he can't say that because that makes him the asshole and she keeps pushing him into that corner, he goes back to the only excuse he can think of that doesn't involve telling a woman to her face that he finds her ugly. So technically correct on Luke "lying" and going with the drinking thing, but I think it's a stretch for that particular moment to say that this is the excuse-response he intended and went with to purposely mislead her. She wanted to hear something he wasn't willing to lie about and so instead he gave her something he was willing to lie about, is the way it came off to me.

PS - where Luke WAS the total asshole was later in teh ep when he said Kate has a "bad attitude toward their marriage". THIS is where Luke gaslights and is the worst!!!

Edited March 1, 2019 by Mazzy

[LuvMyShows]

48 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

For Dr. Jessica to even begin to suggest in the Unfiltered program that they were both to blame makes me want to bitch slap her about a dozen times.  Unless there is footage that is being held back, Kate has NO responsibility in the fuckery that's currently going on.   

This reminds me so much of the experts trying to put the blame equally on Jessica as on abusive-as-f*ck Ryan.  I was flabbergasted seeing what he would do/say, and how they kept giving him a pass, and talking about how she wasn't good at communicating...as if that had ANY bearing on her being treated the abusive way he treated her.

3 hours ago, configdotsys said:

I finnd it very hard to believe that he's in real nursing school. Anyone who has been through it knows how intense it is: 500+ pages of reading per week, tons and tons of work, clinicals, etc., There is incredible stress and exhaustion due to all the work involved. Plus he works full time at night? Just not buying it because those two things would consume nearly 16 hours of each day if he was in a real nursing program and that would have to be mentioned on the show because it would have quite an effect on the marriage. I think this is one of those times that "in school" is thrown out generically to describe everything from a career school or certificate program all the way through grad school. 

Yes.  I had not been able to put my finger on why it didn't ring true, and this is a great summary.

9 hours ago, Retired at last said:

I think Will is being polite and respectful and honest and he is in no hurry to have his love-making skills be torn apart, as she has with anything else he has tried.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

[Jeanne222]

Just for a moment what if Luke isn't the bad guy!  I remember him not wanting to say what was wrong at Jayme s little show!

What if he's being a gentleman and not speaking badly of Kate!  What if Kate is taking advantage of all of that!

[LuvMyShows]

9 minutes ago, Mazzy said:

Okay, I just rewatched the moment we are discussing about Luke's reaction to Kate saying it was okay he wasn't physically attracted to her. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links so I'm not posting it but I will if someone knows if it's okay. The clip starts right at the moment Kate says it's okay if he isn't into her.

She says it, he responds: "don't do that". She says "What? That's what it is. I'm just trying to be realistic." He stays silent and just looks at her, then tries to blow off the uncomfortable silence by giving a non-committal half-no shake of the head. Cut to her talking to the camera saying "if he's not attracted to me there's nothing I can do about that".
Cut back to them on the couch, Kate says "I have given you everything that is me and that's okay. You married a stranger and this isn't the stranger you wanted to marry so I'm just saying that's fine, just tell me..." (and she trails off not in a "just tell me, [period]" kind of way but a "just tell me [fill in the blank]" kind of way. Luke just stares, saying nothing, obv not wanting to confirm this and I can't blame the guy for that bit. No one wants to say "yeah, your'e right, I don't find you at all attractive so.... there!" right?

So Luke is staring in silence, Kate speaks again: "And then you just sit there and don't say anything!" Luke: "What do you want me to say?" Kate: "What are you thinking?! I'm trying to talk to you."

THEN, Luke goes with the "you know what bothers me, the drinking" So yeah, it's correct that EVENTUALLY he goes to his excuse line, but only after Kate pushes and pushes for what to me seems like her wanting him to tell her it isn't true that he's not attracted to her and when he can't say that because that makes him the asshole and she keeps pushing him into that corner, he goes back to the only excuse he can think of that doesn't involve telling a woman to her face that he finds her ugly. So technically correct on Luke "lying" and going with the drinking thing, but I think it's a stretch for that particular moment to say that this is the excuse-response he intended and went with to purposely mislead her. She wanted to hear something he wasn't willing to lie about and so instead he gave her something he was willing to lie about, is the way it came off to me.
 

Interesting how people interpret things differently.  After reading what you wrote, I don't see it as Kate pushing "like her wanting him to tell her it isn't true that he's not attracted to her".  Instead it seems like she keeps pushing because she wants him to take responsibility for lobbing a grenade rather than how he wants to treat it as casually placing a little traffic flare....so she's pushing because if he really meant it, he needs to stick by it and own it, and then presumably start taking actions commensurate with it.

[aphroditewitch]

16 minutes ago, Mazzy said:

Okay, I just rewatched the moment we are discussing about Luke's reaction to Kate saying it was okay he wasn't physically attracted to her. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links so I'm not posting it but I will if someone knows if it's okay. The clip starts right at the moment Kate says it's okay if he isn't into her.

She says it, he responds: "don't do that". She says "What? That's what it is. I'm just trying to be realistic." He stays silent and just looks at her, then tries to blow off the uncomfortable silence by giving a non-committal half-no shake of the head. Cut to her talking to the camera saying "if he's not attracted to me there's nothing I can do about that".
Cut back to them on the couch, Kate says "I have given you everything that is me and that's okay. You married a stranger and this isn't the stranger you wanted to marry so I'm just saying that's fine, just tell me..." (and she trails off not in a "just tell me, [period]" kind of way but a "just tell me [fill in the blank]" kind of way. Luke just stares, saying nothing, obv not wanting to confirm this and I can't blame the guy for that bit. No one wants to say "yeah, your'e right, I don't find you at all attractive so.... there!" right?

So Luke is staring in silence, Kate speaks again: "And then you just sit there and don't say anything!" Luke: "What do you want me to say?" Kate: "What are you thinking?! I'm trying to talk to you."

THEN, Luke goes with the "you know what bothers me, the drinking" So yeah, it's correct that EVENTUALLY he goes to his excuse line, but only after Kate pushes and pushes for what to me seems like her wanting him to tell her it isn't true that he's not attracted to her and when he can't say that because that makes him the asshole and she keeps pushing him into that corner, he goes back to the only excuse he can think of that doesn't involve telling a woman to her face that he finds her ugly. So technically correct on Luke "lying" and going with the drinking thing, but I think it's a stretch for that particular moment to say that this is the excuse-response he intended and went with to purposely mislead her. She wanted to hear something he wasn't willing to lie about and so instead he gave her something he was willing to lie about, is the way it came off to me.

PS - where Luke WAS the total asshole was later in teh ep when he said Kate has a "bad attitude toward their marriage". THIS is where Luke gaslights and is the worst!!!

Luke wasn't staring off in silence. He was smirking at her during most of that conversation. He obviously had no problem telling her that he felt repulsed and dead inside after they kissed, so I don't buy the idea that he is uncomfortable telling her that he is not attracted to her. This idea that pushes him into a corner is silly.

[Mazzy]

Just now, LuvMyShows said:

Interesting how people interpret things differently.  After reading what you wrote, I don't see it as Kate pushing "like her wanting him to tell her it isn't true that he's not attracted to her".  Instead it seems like she keeps pushing because she wants him to take responsibility for lobbing a grenade rather than how he wants to treat it as casually placing a little traffic flare....so she's pushing because if he really meant it, he needs to stick by it and own it, and then presumably start taking actions commensurate with it.

I could agree with that as a possibility too. We just don't know. For me, I'm taking it in context with her saying she has feelings for him and that she wants things to work. I disagree with the conspiracy theory idea, that behind the scenes producers are just feeding Kate lines to say but somehow simultaneously Luke is completely serious about every word and action and the producers and Kate are keeping him totally in the dark about her acting. It just isn't a rational through-line to follow to me.

[aphroditewitch]

6 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

Just for a moment what if Luke isn't the bad guy!  I remember him not wanting to say what was wrong at Jayme s little show!

What if he's being a gentleman and not speaking badly of Kate!  What if Kate is taking advantage of all of that!

He didn't want to say it because he was doing his bad acting routine with the fake tears and needing to leave the room. Luke prefers to do his dirty work off camera. Or when he thinks people won't pick up on it. Like when he also tried to say Keith had a drinking problem several episodes ago. 

[Elizzikra]

30 minutes ago, Mazzy said:

Okay, I just rewatched the moment we are discussing about Luke's reaction to Kate saying it was okay he wasn't physically attracted to her. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links so I'm not posting it but I will if someone knows if it's okay. The clip starts right at the moment Kate says it's okay if he isn't into her.

She says it, he responds: "don't do that". She says "What? That's what it is. I'm just trying to be realistic." He stays silent and just looks at her, then tries to blow off the uncomfortable silence by giving a non-committal half-no shake of the head. Cut to her talking to the camera saying "if he's not attracted to me there's nothing I can do about that".
Cut back to them on the couch, Kate says "I have given you everything that is me and that's okay. You married a stranger and this isn't the stranger you wanted to marry so I'm just saying that's fine, just tell me..." (and she trails off not in a "just tell me, [period]" kind of way but a "just tell me [fill in the blank]" kind of way. Luke just stares, saying nothing, obv not wanting to confirm this and I can't blame the guy for that bit. No one wants to say "yeah, your'e right, I don't find you at all attractive so.... there!" right?

So Luke is staring in silence, Kate speaks again: "And then you just sit there and don't say anything!" Luke: "What do you want me to say?" Kate: "What are you thinking?! I'm trying to talk to you."

THEN, Luke goes with the "you know what bothers me, the drinking" So yeah, it's correct that EVENTUALLY he goes to his excuse line, but only after Kate pushes and pushes for what to me seems like her wanting him to tell her it isn't true that he's not attracted to her and when he can't say that because that makes him the asshole and she keeps pushing him into that corner, he goes back to the only excuse he can think of that doesn't involve telling a woman to her face that he finds her ugly. So technically correct on Luke "lying" and going with the drinking thing, but I think it's a stretch for that particular moment to say that this is the excuse-response he intended and went with to purposely mislead her. She wanted to hear something he wasn't willing to lie about and so instead he gave her something he was willing to lie about, is the way it came off to me.

PS - where Luke WAS the total asshole was later in teh ep when he said Kate has a "bad attitude toward their marriage". THIS is where Luke gaslights and is the worst!!!

But see... what makes Luke an asshole is that he doesn’t answer the direct question she asks. No one wants to say “I find you unattractive” but he’s already said “kissing you makes me feel repulsed and dead inside” so that horse is already out of the barn. And finding a reasonably nice way to say “I’m so sorry but I’m just not attracted to you. You’re beautiful and kind and have so many wonderful qualities but I just don’t feel the chemistry. I know we both hoped for a different outcome” is so much less asshole-y than dancing around the subject, making her beg him to just be honest and then blaming her drinking while ignoring her own.

WRT gaslighting, he has said before that he feels bad that the situation is so bad she has to drink to cope with it. So he’s not attracted to her because she drinks; he claims the resulting discomfort makes her drink even more and it never occurs to him that he could do a lot more to make the situation better, without lying about his feelings or attraction? Bullshit. He takes no responsibility; never answers a direct question and wouldn’t know honesty if it bit him in his hipster bearded ass.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Elizzikra

[Mazzy]

3 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

Luke wasn't staring off in silence. He was smirking at her during most of that conversation. He obviously had no problem telling her that he felt repulsed and dead inside after they kissed, so I don't buy the idea that he is uncomfortable telling her that he is not attracted to her. This idea that pushes him into a corner is silly.

Again, no one said he was "staring off in silence". No one said that. Ever. Anywhere. I said "he stays silent and just looks at her". We significantly disagree on most of the story details. I go with what was on the actual screen and you go with your interpretations of what may or may not have actually happened. And that's totally fine. This is entertainment so making up a storyline is perfectly fine. But any comment I personally make is only about what actually happened or words actually said by a cast member.

[Kiss my mutt]

Luke is a punk ass bitch. 

[2727]

This is from the casting special when the experts were selecting the matches.

Luke and Kate: All agreed
Kristine and Keith: All agreed

The "argument" was over:

AJ and Stephanie: Jessica wanted them. Cal's objections were that AJ was going to drive Stephanie crazy and that their individual energies would cancel each other out.

Jasmine and Will: Cal wanted them. Jessica's objection was that Jasmine is "spectacular" and Jessica doesn't want to set her up with someone who they are hoping will "step up". She said there's a bigger question mark with them than with AJ and Stephanie.
 

[Mazzy]

1 minute ago, 2727 said:

This is from the casting special when the experts were selecting the matches.

Luke and Kate: All agreed
Kristine and Keith: All agreed

The "argument" was over:

AJ and Stephanie: Jessica wanted them. Cal's objections were that AJ was going to drive Stephanie crazy and that their individual energies would cancel each other out.

Jasmine and Will: Cal wanted them. Jessica's objection was that Jasmine is "spectacular" and Jessica doesn't want to set her up with someone who they are hoping will "step up". She said there's a bigger question mark with them than with AJ and Stephanie.
 

I love this show like watching a train wreck in real time. LOL And this is why - these "experts". They couldn't be more wrong more often if they literally tried to fail. lol

Edited March 1, 2019 by Mazzy

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Jasmine is "spectacular" 

I didn't watch the casting so my only knowledge of these people is from the weddings forward. But I don't see this. She just seems like a perfectly ordinary person. I don't much like her from what I've seen on the show but if she was a colleague or on the next mat at yoga or something, I'd find her to be... fine... What was supposed to be so spectacular about her?

Quote

AJ and Stephanie: Jessica wanted them. Cal's objections were that AJ was going to drive Stephanie crazy and that their individual energies would cancel each other out.

I don't understand that at all. Granted, hindsight is 20/20 but Stephanie has said that one of the reasons they work is that they are both high energy. I don't think either one of them would have been happy with a lower energy partner.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Elizzikra

[aphroditewitch]

1 minute ago, Mazzy said:

Again, no one said he was "staring off in silence". No one said that. Ever. Anywhere. I said "he stays silent and just looks at her". We significantly disagree on most of the story details. I go with what was on the actual screen and you go with your interpretations of what may or may not have actually happened. And that's totally fine. This is entertainment so making up a storyline is perfectly fine. But any comment I personally make is only about what actually happened or words actually said by a cast member.

You're getting into semantics now. He didn't stay silent, he kept being evasive ans saying "I know" or similar things because he prefers to say things to her or about her off camera because he thinks he can get away with it. That is not speculation because we know he told her off-camera that he wasn't attracted to her and he confirmed that he said he told her felt repulsed and dead inside both to Pastor Cal and on Unfiltered before he pretended to feel ill. . Dr. Pepper said on Unfiltered that Luke was not an honest guy. 

[Mazzy]

8 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

You're getting into semantics now. He didn't stay silent, he kept being evasive ans saying "I know" or similar things because he prefers to say things to her or about her off camera because he thinks he can get away with it. That is not speculation because we know he told her off-camera that he wasn't attracted to her and he confirmed that he said he told her felt repulsed and dead inside both to Pastor Cal and on Unfiltered before he pretended to feel ill. . Dr. Pepper said on Unfiltered that Luke was not an honest guy. 

No, the exact words I typed are what he said. the exact words. It's a transcript, not an interpretation. I have the YouTube clip open and listened and wrote the words. that's what I'm saying. I ONLY go by actual things that took place, not by my interpretation of a storyline I indulged to meet my own narrative.

PS - I have no problem with you really liking Kate and thinking Kate has no wrong doing here and Kate is solely a victim and for some reason can't just leave the situation herself. I don't feel that way but I get it.

Edited March 1, 2019 by Mazzy

[Kiss my mutt]

If Luke and Kate has this conversation off camera he probably would have responded differently. He’s sly. 

[aphroditewitch]

2 minutes ago, Mazzy said:

No, the exact words I typed are what he said. the exact words. It's a transcript, not an interpretation. I have the YouTube clip open and listened and wrote the words. that's what I'm saying. I ONLY go by actual things that took place, not by my interpretation of a storyline I indulged to meet my own narrative.

I've seen the clip in question. He wasn't silent. The moments you are calling silence last for about a second or so. And it is an interpretation to say that Kate pushed him into a corner. Luke had a choice and he could have chosen to be honest in a mature way. He could have said that unfortunately she is not his type and he doesn't see a future for them. Instead he went back into his lies about Kate drinking too much. 

[Mazzy]

10 minutes ago, aphroditewitch said:

I've seen the clip in question. He wasn't silent. The moments you are calling silence last for about a second or so. And it is an interpretation to say that Kate pushed him into a corner. Luke had a choice and he could have chosen to be honest in a mature way. He could have said that unfortunately she is not his type and he doesn't see a future for them. Instead he went back into his lies about Kate drinking too much. 

No man, he absolutely WAS silent. I have a 24" screen. I have it split. The clip is up on one side and this convo is up on the other side, and while I played the clip I typed the words. This is EXACT. I'm... at a loss all of a sudden. This IS entertainment as I said, but I'm not making up real things that actually happened on screen! ... I'm starting to feel like, if I'm completely honest, like this IS Kate. lol

If it's pointed out that Kate says she has feelings for Luke even though he shows zero interest in her and how can that possibly be, the response is that she is only acting for the show and producers are feeding her those lines. If it's pointed out that Kate tries to instigate physical contact even after Luke tells her he is repulsed, even after Luke tells her he isn't attracted to her, even after Luke tells her it makes him uncomfortable, then it's that the time line is wrong and the times we see her try to pull him into a kiss are really occurring not when we see them but in some past time before he ever told her that he wasn't attracted to her, which he did in week ONE. If it's pointed out that Kate could just as easily leave as Luke then it's that she is confused and doesn't know what to believe because he is telling her all different things, but then that implies she has feelings which the response is that she is only saying that because producers are feeding her those lines.... and we've closed the circle.

Look, what I wrote is what the man said, just like they are the words Kate said. Interpreting them is up to each of us individually, but pretending things were spoken that weren't or weren't spoken that were is a matter of pretending reality isn't real and I just don't with all that. Reality is real.

[princelina]

I think one of the reasons Kate thinks she is getting mixed messages is that she reports he acts different off camera - we all remember the "dead and repulsed" comment, but she also says he lays in bed snuggling, etc. where she thinks it would be normal to kiss.  Now she could be just hanging on him and calling it snuggling, who knows.

15 minutes ago, Mazzy said:

No man, he absolutely WAS silent. I have a 24" screen. I have it split. The clip is up on one side and this convo is up on the other side, and while I played the clip I typed the words. This is EXACT. I'm... at a loss all of a sudden. This IS entertainment as I said, but I'm not making up real things that actually happened on screen! ... I'm starting to feel like, if I'm completely honest, like this IS Kate. lol

If it's pointed out that Kate says she has feelings for Luke even though he shows zero interest in her and how can that possibly be, the response is that she is only acting for the show and producers are feeding her those lines. If it's pointed out that Kate tries to instigate physical contact even after Luke tells her he is repulsed, even after Luke tells her he isn't attracted to her, even after Luke tells her it makes him uncomfortable, then it's that the time line is wrong and the times we see her try to pull him into a kiss are really occurring not when we see them but in some past time before he ever told her that he wasn't attracted to her, which he did in week ONE. If it's pointed out that Kate could just as easily leave as Luke then it's that she is confused and doesn't know what to believe because he is telling her all different things, but then that implies she has feelings which the response is that she is only saying that because producers are feeding her those lines.... and we've closed the circle.

Look, what I wrote is what the man said, just like they are the words Kate said. Interpreting them is up to each of us individually, but pretending things were spoken that weren't or weren't spoken that were is a matter of pretending reality isn't real and I just don't with all that. Reality is real.

You have interpreted his silence as feeling pushed into a corner and wanting to be polite.  I'm with those who interpret it as smirking, trying to make her uncomfortable and refusing to engage 🙂

[aphroditewitch]

15 minutes ago, Mazzy said:

No man, he absolutely WAS silent. I have a 24" screen. I have it split. The clip is up on one side and this convo is up on the other side, and while I played the clip I typed the words. This is EXACT. I'm... at a loss all of a sudden. This IS entertainment as I said, but I'm not making up real things that actually happened on screen! ... I'm starting to feel like, if I'm completely honest, like this IS Kate. lol

If it's pointed out that Kate says she has feelings for Luke even though he shows zero interest in her and how can that possibly be, the response is that she is only acting for the show and producers are feeding her those lines. If it's pointed out that Kate tries to instigate physical contact even after Luke tells her he is repulsed, even after Luke tells her he isn't attracted to her, even after Luke tells her it makes him uncomfortable, then it's that the time line is wrong and the times we see her try to pull him into a kiss are really occurring not when we see them but in some past time before he ever told her that he wasn't attracted to her, which he did in week ONE. If it's pointed out that Kate could just as easily leave as Luke then it's that she is confused and doesn't know what to believe because he is telling her all different things, but then that implies she has feelings which the response is that she is only saying that because producers are feeding her those lines.... and we've closed the circle.

Look, what I wrote is what the man said, just like they are the words Kate said. Interpreting them is up to each of us individually, but pretending things were spoken that weren't or weren't spoken that were is a matter of pretending reality isn't real and I just don't with all that. Reality is real.

If silence to you is a matter of a few seconds, then that is your interpretation of silence. That is not how I see silence. 

We don't know when Kate said she had feelings for Luke. And that does matter. If she said it before he told he he felt repulsed and dead inside, it matters a lot. 

In the most recent episode it was in voice-over when we hear her say she has feelings for him. There is no way to know when she said those words and whether that was her full statement. 

Also when did she try multiple time to pull him into a kiss? List the episodes when she physically pulled him into a kiss. 

[psychoticstate]

1 hour ago, Elizzikra said:

But see... what makes Luke an asshole is that he doesn’t answer the direct question she asks. No one wants to say “I find you unattractive” but he’s already said “kissing you makes me feel repulsed and dead inside” so that horse is already out of the barn. And finding a reasonably nice way to say “I’m so sorry but I’m just not attracted to you. You’re beautiful and kind and have so many wonderful qualities but I just don’t feel the chemistry. I know we both hoped for a different outcome” is so much less asshole-y than dancing around the subject, making her beg him to just be honest and then blaming her drinking while ignoring her own.

WRT gaslighting, he has said before that he feels bad that the situation is so bad she has to drink to cope with it. So he’s not attracted to her because she drinks; he claims the resulting discomfort makes her drink even more and it never occurs to him that he could do a lot more to make the situation better, without lying about his feelings or attraction? Bullshit. He takes no responsibility; never answers a direct question and wouldn’t know honesty if it bit him in his hipster bearded ass.

Exactly.  Kate gave Luke a perfect out.  He could have said something like "I've always dated women who are dark haired or dark skinned and I guess that's really my type."  Of course he also should have told the "experts" this and not gone on MAFS.  However . . . 

I think Luke pretty much shut the door on Kate once he recognized her from one of his events . . . and she didn't recognize him.  Maybe he got his oh-so-special feelings hurt because she didn't remember him.  But it's clear from the very beginning he didn't give her a chance and that is the ultimate wrong if you're going to do MAFS.  It's not like he tried and it's just not working.  He's never tried.  

The drinking blame game is clearly Luke's "out" when he wants to shift the conversation.  He did it with Keith when the guys began talking about his situation with Kate.  He told the cameramen that when he had zero interest in kissing or snuggling or whatever with Kate.  

[Gigi G3]

Jasmine is a strong person. She is critical and controlling. She wants a strong man but I think she's only going to get someone who will take her criticism and that's going to be a weak man, who will be allow himself to be brow beaten due to his lack of self-esteem. Will seems like a good guy with healthy self-esteem. Thus he is frustrated with her criticism and her attempts to control everything. I wil be shocked if they stay together.

[aphroditewitch]

3 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

Exactly.  Kate gave Luke a perfect out.  He could have said something like "I've always dated women who are dark haired or dark skinned and I guess that's really my type."  Of course he also should have told the "experts" this and not gone on MAFS.  However . . . 

I think Luke pretty much shut the door on Kate once he recognized her from one of his events . . . and she didn't recognize him.  Maybe he got his oh-so-special feelings hurt because she didn't remember him.  But it's clear from the very beginning he didn't give her a chance and that is the ultimate wrong if you're going to do MAFS.  It's not like he tried and it's just not working.  He's never tried.  

The drinking blame game is clearly Luke's "out" when he wants to shift the conversation.  He did it with Keith when the guys began talking about his situation with Kate.  He told the cameramen that when he had zero interest in kissing or snuggling or whatever with Kate.  

I think he was sure that smoking was going to be his out but Kate said it was a social thing and she was willing to give it up. We have not heard about it again since that moment on the honeymoon when it was bought up, so at this point it seems it was was just social smoking and she hasn't smoked since then at least during filming. As a result he had to grasp at something to make Kate at fault for how he was treating her. 

[Drogo]

Moderator's Note:

This is a reminder that criticizing other posters is off limits.  

Let's keep it classy in here. 

[Elizzikra]

27 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

Exactly.  Kate gave Luke a perfect out.  He could have said something like "I've always dated women who are dark haired or dark skinned and I guess that's really my type."  Of course he also should have told the "experts" this and not gone on MAFS.  However . . . 

I think Luke pretty much shut the door on Kate once he recognized her from one of his events . . . and she didn't recognize him.  Maybe he got his oh-so-special feelings hurt because she didn't remember him.  But it's clear from the very beginning he didn't give her a chance and that is the ultimate wrong if you're going to do MAFS.  It's not like he tried and it's just not working.  He's never tried.  

The drinking blame game is clearly Luke's "out" when he wants to shift the conversation.  He did it with Keith when the guys began talking about his situation with Kate.  He told the cameramen that when he had zero interest in kissing or snuggling or whatever with Kate.  

Even if Luke could say “you know - I really thought I could do this whole marry a stranger at first sight thing but I just can’t. I’m so sorry” that would work. I’m not sure that Luke was mortally wounded by Kate not remembering him but I’ve always wondered why he remembered her. Maybe the events aren’t that big but I wonder if it’s more that she said/did something that, at the time, made him think “wow - I would never want to be with a woman who said/did that.” And now he can’t shake whatever that was.

Honestly, I can’t imagine any reason that this isn’t working for him that would be worse than what we are seeing of him. Being gay? Not a bad thing in any event and certainly not worse than being a jackass. Being in love with another woman? Not great when you’re supposed to be coming into MAFS unencumbered but not worse than being a dickwad. Being turned off by some aspects of Kate’s hygiene? An awkward conversation but seriously - how much more awkward can it be than the now classic “repulsed and dead inside” conversation? 

Whatever it is, Luke. Spit it out already. Own it. And stop laying it on Kate’s fictional alcoholism, especially when you yourself are drinking like a college freshman with a really great fake ID. You jackass.

[princelina]

I think if it is a “hygiene” issue it’s some weird hang-up of Luke’s vs an actual issue.  Like “she goes to bed without showering” when she prefers to shower in the morning.

[gonecrackers]

50 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

I’m not sure that Luke was mortally wounded by Kate not remembering him but I’ve always wondered why he remembered her. Maybe the events aren’t that big but I wonder if it’s more that she said/did something that, at the time, made him think “wow - I would never want to be with a woman who said/did that.” And now he can’t shake whatever that was.

Yes & I recall as soon as he saw her walking in at the wedding, him turning to someone (maybe a groomsman?), & saying "I knew it would be her" - I've wondered about that too.

[Gem 10]

21 hours ago, endure said:

I can only hope that once this season is over that Kate sues Luke for defamation of character.

[LuvMyShows]

3 hours ago, aphroditewitch said:

Like when he also tried to say Keith had a drinking problem several episodes ago. 

I don't know why it didn't hit me earlier....Luke accusing everyone of having a drinking problem, when he is actually the one with the drinking problem, is just like when someone keeps accusing their partner of cheating, even though they're not, because they themselves are cheating.  

[Kiss my mutt]

Classic deflection 

[aphroditewitch]

8 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

I don't know why it didn't hit me earlier....Luke accusing everyone of having a drinking problem, when he is actually the one with the drinking problem, is just like when someone keeps accusing their partner of cheating, even though they're not, because they themselves are cheating.  

And he or his friends conveniently made sure he didn't go back home that night so that camera crew wouldn't have him on film completely drunk. 

The fact that he accused two people on the show of having a drinking problem is a red flag. When Keith shot him a glare the other week on Unfiltered after they played the clip for him making that accusation about Kate, it was very telling. 

[Gem 10]

I know I will get clobbered with this opinion, but here goes.  A lot on here are against A.J. and his ways.  I know he is loud, laughs hard, acts the clown and seems to have no patience.  A lot think there’s trouble down the road for him and Stephanie.  I don’t agree.  I don’t think the picture thing was a big deal.  He wanted it to stay up, so what’s the big deal?  I don’t even think he was out of line when he gave the production girl a “no” to the interview.  I agreed with him.  From the sound of it, it seems that some viewers think his yelling is very inappropriate.  I guess these viewers have husbands that are the complete opposite who never yell or are never out of line.  In my circle of married friends, some husbands yell, embarrass people, say inappropriate things, and have short tempers.  Should they get a divorce?  Abuse is bad, alcoholism is bad and disrespect is bad, and a woman or man shouldn’t have to take it.  A.J. And Stephanie seem to be happy and are trying to make a go of it.  Not every husband is a “Bobby”.  If everyone would get pissed off when their spouse did something wrong, everyone would be divorced.  My husband yells at times and so do I.  Sometimes he’s loud, but so am I.  Should we divorce?  Sometimes you have to look for the good that they do, instead of concentrating on the bad.  Show me a man who doesn’t get inpatient at times.  Or a woman for that matter.  A.J. Seems to be thrilled with Stephanie.  He’s thoughtful and loving and wants to make this marriage work.  So he’s loud and impatient .. so what.  Is that the worst thing in the world?  O.k., fire away, lol.  My opinion.

[2727]

The only thing that matters about AJ's snappishness is how it affects Stephanie, and she has said it bothers her.

Edited March 2, 2019 by 2727

[Ilovepie]

@Gem 10 - I said kind of the same thing on last week’s forum. If people think he has an explosive temper they would run screaming from my house!  My husband and I are high strung temperamental yellers and I’m pretty sure the neighbors three houses down could hear us when we argue. But we aren’t resentful or brooding or passive aggressive either. We get over it. And we’re going to be celebrating our 21st anniversary in a couple months, so it hasn’t been a deal breaker for us. So no, I don’t think AJ’s “temper” is that bad. He seems more annoyed and is just more vocal about it. Nobody is perfect, and they seem to get along really well. I hope they stay together.

[qtpye]

15 hours ago, aphroditewitch said:

The reality is that the days of one partner being the provider are pretty much over for most people. It is just not realistic. Most of the women on the show get that. Jasmine as shown on the show seems to be not accepting of reality. I think it probably has been exaggerated by the show but it seems odd that she seems stuck on having a breadwinner husband. 

Whoever Luke ends up with will end up supporting him because he is constantly trying a get rich quick scheme. I would bet he sunk money into at least one MLM like Primerica at some point in his life too.

Most women kind of accept that they will be working for life. I think the problem is that society still expect women to take on the majority of the family responsibilities as well. I know that their are plenty of men who contribute to household chores and childcare but many people still think that is the  primarily the wife’s responsibility. Unless you really want children and only want them to be raised in a two person household, marriage is often a lot of hard work for both spouses.

Jaimie Otis knows this well. Doug has never been financially stable and she is the breadwinner in their family. She has always wanted to stay home with her children but the man she married makes it impossible with his spotty work history and undisclosed debt.

[Kareem]

On 2/28/2019 at 1:19 AM, dirtypop90 said:

Will is no better catch that Jasmine, IMO.  That's why I'm always confused by the anti-Jasmine comments. Jasmine isn't romantic, neither is Will.  Jas isnt flirty, neither is Will.  Jasmine isn't a good communicator.  Has anyone heard Will say anything? Jasmine is average looking, so is Will.  Jasmine is too masculine, well...Will has a lot of feminine energy--He is not assertive; he does let Jasmine lead; he doesn't initiate physical contact; he hasn't set standards for their marriage or made his expectations for Jasmine known; he's not a provider. That 6.8 rating was a passive-agressive jab, i.e. not very manly.  I could go on.  Nothing about Will is traditionally masculine, IMO . And I don't buy that it's Jasmine making him this way.  I think this is how he is, a beta male nerd. 

I think Will might be a different animal when he's not spending 24/7 with Tons of Fun. It started with the honeymoon which was like a drill, from the money speech disappointment to the bridge he was required to cross to the zip line disappointment to the off road excursion disappointment, etc. She seemed annoyed with everything. Time at home hasn't been much better, with the mud event and her pushing for sex. MaDam constantly vocalizing her expectations and criticisms is exhausting. She's naming the kids and he's gasping for air.  I noticed that when they went to the Aunt's, they both wore pink. On anniversary night, they were sporting orange. I can just imagine Jasmine explaining that requirement to him.  smh 

[humbleopinion]

Will is giving in to letting Jas control his wardrobe...that is a far cry from surrendering his penis to her....

[aphroditewitch]

11 hours ago, Mazzy said:

 

9 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

Even if Luke could say “you know - I really thought I could do this whole marry a stranger at first sight thing but I just can’t. I’m so sorry” that would work. I’m not sure that Luke was mortally wounded by Kate not remembering him but I’ve always wondered why he remembered her. Maybe the events aren’t that big but I wonder if it’s more that she said/did something that, at the time, made him think “wow - I would never want to be with a woman who said/did that.” And now he can’t shake whatever that was.

Honestly, I can’t imagine any reason that this isn’t working for him that would be worse than what we are seeing of him. Being gay? Not a bad thing in any event and certainly not worse than being a jackass. Being in love with another woman? Not great when you’re supposed to be coming into MAFS unencumbered but not worse than being a dickwad. Being turned off by some aspects of Kate’s hygiene? An awkward conversation but seriously - how much more awkward can it be than the now classic “repulsed and dead inside” conversation? 

Whatever it is, Luke. Spit it out already. Own it. And stop laying it on Kate’s fictional alcoholism, especially when you yourself are drinking like a college freshman with a really great fake ID. You jackass.

I doubt Kate did anything to trigger his behavior other than exist as someone he is not interested in. I think Luke has probably been like this towards other women he dated, just not this early in a relationship. This is just the first time the behavior has been on public display. His behavior is extreme. 

People tried to say that about Amber last season, that the guy she had dated from the gym must have said something horrible about her and that was Dave's problem. But that was never the issue. It was that Dave just wasn't into her beyond a convenient sex partner. And as a result he felt entitled to treat her as though she was beneath him in some way.

Edited March 1, 2019 by aphroditewitch

[humbleopinion]

Kate is choosing to give Puke the upper hand instead of stop acting so passive in front of the cameras....That is driving us crazy...

If she is being more assertive off camera then she is fooling the viewing audience with her allowing him to taking ZERO responsibility for his disrespectful actions.

Why won't Puke let the cameras film him being nice to her?

Where is her hand held camera given to the couples to document?

Why isn't she capturing those lovey dovey moments they share off camera?

Puke doesn't want any niceness documented...it goes against the "bad boy" hipster persona he is crafting...

Well, that was a bust with his weepy, red rimmed eyed cowardly leaving the set when asked to explain his behavior on his Unfiltered appearance.

His sudden aphasia...the stammering...long verbal pauses are his way out of trouble in the past...but he just looked lame and was exposed as a weak asshat.

Bullies when confronted with their misdeeds use crying, whimpering and point fingers as their way out of situations they do not control.

The Unfiltered panel gave him chances to defend himself but he ran off set...the 3 women were actually too easy on him...very disappointing to the viewing audience...we want answers from him...will we get any on Decision day...nope....

 What are the chances the producers are going with a heavy bag of dicks edit for Puke and giving Kate the victim edit?.....

Not cool MAFS...

Puke and Kate is killing the show's winning charm

Edited March 1, 2019 by humbleopinion

[Gem 10]

8 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

@Gem 10 - I said kind of the same thing on last week’s forum. If people think he has an explosive temper they would run screaming from my house!  My husband and I are high strung temperamental yellers and I’m pretty sure the neighbors three houses down could hear us when we argue. But we aren’t resentful or brooding or passive aggressive either. We get over it. And we’re going to be celebrating our 21st anniversary in a couple months, so it hasn’t been a deal breaker for us. So no, I don’t think AJ’s “temper” is that bad. He seems more annoyed and is just more vocal about it. Nobody is perfect, and they seem to get along really well. I hope they stay together.

@Ilovepie -  Well, thank you for that.  Over fifty years ago, my husband came over to me at a company dance and his first words were “you have too much powder on your nose” and I answered back”take gas”.  After that we were inseparable and got married two years later.  He’s a pain in the butt, but a good man who put our three kids thru college and provided a good home.  He yells, is stubborn, and has a short fuse, but I don’t take no guff, so we even it out.  A.J. Isn’t mean.  When Stephanie realizes that’s the way he is and he means no harm, I think they will get along fine.  A.J. Yelling he was hungry and wanted to go and eat was no big deal to me.  If Stephanie gets “frighntened” over a thing like that, she had better start looking again for a boring “yes man”.  Happy life to you and yours.  You’ll never be bored, haha.  It takes all kinds to make a marriage work.  There are no set rules. 

[Retired at last]

When Kate was talking with her friends (although I thought that one of them was her mother, but maybe not), she told them that Puke has told her many times that he is not attracted to her - it wasn't just that one time. They looked shocked to me that 1) he would say that and 2) that she still said that she is hopeful. That is when she asked if they thought that attraction could come later and they both said 'no'. So, yes, Puke pretends to not want to "have to" say mean things to her, and whenever she tries to have a conversation (that we are shown) so that she can try to find a way to make it work, he deflects to the alcohol excuse. In his condescending way, of course. 

[Retired at last]

@Gem 10, what bothered me when AJ was having his tantrum when he wanted to eat and she was watching the game, was when she finally got up to go, he mumbled loud enough for us to hear, "This is the first decision I have gotten to make in a month." Now, whether he was referring to having the producers make him do things, or Steph, I am not sure. 

[Gem 10]

1 hour ago, Retired at last said:

@Gem 10, what bothered me when AJ was having his tantrum when he wanted to eat and she was watching the game, was when she finally got up to go, he mumbled loud enough for us to hear, "This is the first decision I have gotten to make in a month." Now, whether he was referring to having the producers make him do things, or Steph, I am not sure. 

Although he agreed to do this show, I don’t think he realized that he would be “producer driven”.  It’s not his style to be made to look the ogre.  This show has an agenda for each person .. who’s mean, who’s cheap, who doesn’t cook, who uncontrollably loud, etc.  It makes for the show.  This season, Puke is the villain.  I really think A.J. Is frustrated that he’s made to look like a wreck who makes Stephanie nervous.  If you notice, the “experts” are picking on the good people and not on Puke.  It’s so obvious, especially with that Blondie.  She’s making trouble with A.J. and Stephanie, but not on Luke.  Why doesn’t she put him in the hot seat and give it to him straight?  Puke is allowed to clam up by production, that’s why.  He is allowed to clam up, walk off stage, and sit there with that condescending smirk on his face.  Sickening!

[Gem 10]

Sorry to @retired at last.  To answer your question, I think A.J. Was referring to Production and not to Stephanie.  Looks like he’s loving Stephanie and wouldn’t want to hurt her.

[Crazy Bird Lady]

I really hope that this is true. 

13 minutes ago, Gem 10 said:

retired at last.  To answer your question, I think A.J. Was referring to Production and not to Stephanie.  Looks like he’s loving Stephanie and wouldn’t want to hurt her.

There are still lines that AJ could cross (probably out of anger/frustration/impulsivity) which he would never be able to un-cross. 

I mean, he's not the kind of man who would ever tell his wife that her kiss leaves him feeling "repulsed and dead inside"...  But even if it's all verbal, never physical, that temper of AJ's is quite volatile and, if at some point, he 'impulsively' turns that anger/frustration toward Stephanie, it could end everything they've built together. (I really like them as a couple, and I truly hope this never happens.) 

[Gem 10]

1 minute ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

I really hope that this is true. 

There are still lines that AJ could cross (probably out of anger/frustration/impulsivity) which he would never be able to un-cross. 

I mean, he's not the kind of man who would ever tell his wife that her kiss leaves him feeling "repulsed and dead inside"...  But even if it's all verbal, never physical, that temper of AJ's is quite volatile and, if at some point, he 'impulsively' turns that anger/frustration toward Stephanie, it could end everything they've built together. (I really like them as a couple, and I truly hope this never happens.) 

That is true.  One never knows what the future will bring.  It’s a chance we all take.

[aphroditewitch]

2 minutes ago, Gem 10 said:

Although he agreed to do this show, I don’t think he realized that he would be “producer driven”.  It’s not his style to be made to look the ogre.  This show has an agenda for each person .. who’s mean, who’s cheap, who doesn’t cook, who uncontrollably loud, etc.  It makes for the show.  This season, Puke is the villain.  I really think A.J. Is frustrated that he’s made to look like a wreck who makes Stephanie nervous.  If you notice, the “experts” are picking on the good people and not on Puke.  It’s so obvious, especially with that Blondie.  She’s making trouble with A.J. and Stephanie, but not on Luke.  Why doesn’t she put him in the hot seat and give it to him straight?  Puke is allowed to clam up by production, that’s why.  He is allowed to clam up, walk off stage, and sit there with that condescending smirk on his face.  Sickening!

I agree. I think most of A.J.'s issues are involving the production. I don't think he realized how difficult it would be to still work his normal job, fulfill his filming obligations, and also develop a relationship with Stephanie at the same time. And because he seems to be truly interested in Stephanie, it makes it even more difficult because it probably feels that the production was getting in the way of him building something with her. Dr. Jessica acting like she didn't know what he meant when he brought up the production issues as a source of frustration was so telling. A.J.'s big "crime" as far as the show is concerned is that he is having some normal reactions to what the production is like and that he is saying it out loud. I'm actually a little surprised they kept that part in because for me it makes the show look bad and not A.J.