S02.E16: Believe

[Virtual]

1 hour ago, topanga said:

Speaking of the law, did Melendez’s ex-fiancé leave the hospital? If so, I missed that. 

Yes, the actress who played Jessica left the show after Season 1, and it's pretty easy to miss considering the show never explained the character's absence this season.

It was good to see Carly again. She was a minor character whom I found interesting last season, and I liked the back and forth with her and Shaun when Shaun had to visit the lab. I also liked her episode with Claire last season when they work together to find the lost bottle for the patient's voice.

as I said earlier, I have no doubt that Dr. Han believes he is doing Shaun a favor and putting him in a situation where he can succeed and have a great life. It's a great deal on paper, but there are two underlying problems: Pathology is not where Shaun's heart and passion is; that would be working on the surgical team for him. Second, Dr. Han just assumes Shaun will mess up big based on what he saw within 15 minutes of knowing him, pretty much (every doctor who worked with Shaun since he started even spoke in support of him since then at scattered moments). Personally, I do think Shaun needs therapy to help with his socializing skills, and needs to work with Claire and the others until he improves. Dr. Han could have made that a requirement for his position on the surgical team.

[PinkRibbons]

Didn't Shaun sign a contract when he was hired? I would imagine it's pretty specific about what he was hired as.

Also, Han is being the biggest idiot because not only is he baldly saying things to Claire and Lim that could easily be used against him in a court of law if they were subpoenaed, he's also taking few other steps to ensure the liking or respect of the staff in general. He may be the boss but he's outnumbered, and if the other surgeons want to revolt against him he's already given them a common cause to unite them against him: bullying Shaun.

[possibilities]

Have we seen patients hugging the other surgeons?

[Trini]

9 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Have we seen patients hugging the other surgeons?

I wanna say 'yes', but I can't think of a specific instance off the top of my head.

[possibilities]

It's funny how House was tolerated as having terrible bedside manner and an obnoxious attitude with patients, but Shaun -- who is honestly way less offensive and way more caring-- is considered beyond the pale.

Edited February 27, 2019 by possibilities

[KaveDweller]

3 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

Didn't Shaun sign a contract when he was hired? I would imagine it's pretty specific about what he was hired as.

I don't know if doctors sign contracts for their residency, but don't most contracts favor the employer? I would think it says the hospital can decide where they want to assign doctors (or any employee). 

[tennisgurl]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

It's funny how House was tolerated as having terrible bedside manner and an obnoxious attitude with patients, but Shaun -- who is honestly way less offensive and way more caring-- is considered beyond the pale.

Hah, I was just thinking about that! The "asshole doctor with no bedside manner" its such a common trope! Dr. House is the one that first comes to mind, who was almost always an asshole to his patients, even as they're at deaths door, but also several characters on Scrubs, ER, almost every other hospital show, and no one seems to seriously considering firing those guys! But Shaun has a disability that makes him super blunt, even if he is rarely or ever deliberately rude to people, especially patients, and that means he can never even look at a patient! Obviously! 

I mean, all those guys, who are deliberate assholes but also are neurotypical, can do whatever they want, but Shaun, who is well meaning with people but has autism, has to go? Yeah, I see you, Han. 

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

It's funny how House was tolerated as having terrible bedside manner and an obnoxious attitude with patients, but Shaun -- who is honestly way less offensive and way more caring-- is considered beyond the pale.

I gave you a like, but that is such a good point I had to quote it for truth.

Although, to be fair, there were people who tried to get rid of House too, including an angry cop who tried to get him jailed for drug addiction.  There are other similarities between David Shore's other show and this  one too.  House had a friend who ran the hospital (Dr. Cuddy) who overlooked his mannerisms, and Shaun had Dr. Glassman.

[preeya]

3 hours ago, possibilities said:

It's funny how House was tolerated as having terrible bedside manner and an obnoxious attitude with patients, but Shaun -- who is honestly way less offensive and way more caring-- is considered beyond the pale.

House was the poster child for terrible bedside manner, horrendous people skills towards his underlings, in addition to being a pill-popping addict.

[bros402]

8 hours ago, possibilities said:

It's funny how House was tolerated as having terrible bedside manner and an obnoxious attitude with patients, but Shaun -- who is honestly way less offensive and way more caring-- is considered beyond the pale.

Probably because House knew what he was doing and he was more established as a medical professional.

[doctor destiny]

13 hours ago, possibilities said:

It's not that I think being in the fetal position on the floor is something everyone should pretend is totally cool, but he snapped out of it quickly and then did a really good job. The situation should be investigated, and I'd even be open to him being put on probation while he shows he can handle the stress of the job. But other doctors have screwed up and misbehaved, also, and that is the crux of the matter.

Also, he could become a surgeon where he is highly valued and respected and has status that a resident doesn't have, and then people will do things like have the lights in working order and not buzzing, just like Han controls his OR by playing music or commands a ridiculously high salary because he's considered worth it.

There are accommodations that can be made, which are reasonable and do not fundamentally alter the nature of the program or interfere with patient care or hospital functioning, which would be far better than just ditching a talented surgeon from the profession because of prejudice.

If a diabetic surgeon (of which there must be many) went into hypoglycemic shock you wouldn't fire them.  A reasonable accommodation under the ADA would be the OR staff knowing about the diabetes and responding quickly to any abnormal behavior such as a slight slurring of speech with an appropriate response such giving her a cookie.  If an autistic surgeon goes into sensory overload why would that not be seen as equivalent?  A reasonable accommodation would be an OR without music blasting in it, a staff who understand high sensitivity to sensory stimuli and a quick response to unwanted abnormal buzzing sounds.  Han's use of loud music to put Shaun off knowing it would affect him is in itself is a breach of the ADA and ought to a sackable offense.

[rmontro]

9 hours ago, doctor destiny said:

Han's use of loud music to put Shaun off knowing it would affect him is in itself is a breach of the ADA and ought to a sackable offense.

Did they specifically say that Dr. Han played that loud music to affect Shaun?  I must have missed that part.  Or are you just assuming it?  Not saying you're wrong, but he did say he liked to operate with the loud music.  Even if he didn't do it to put Shaun off, I'd say it's pretty selfish.  I've heard of doctors doing this, but I would find it distracting if I was there, and I'm not autistic.

The main difference I see between diabetes and autism is that as far as I'm aware, there are no autistic surgeons in real life.

[MVN-Hokies]

4 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Did they specifically say that Dr. Han played that loud music to affect Shaun? 

If I remember correctly, he asked for the music to be turned on, Shaun didn't say anything but he was affected by it. Didn't one of the other surgeon's say something to Han when they realized Shaun wasn't happy wit it? I thought the conversation went something like: "The music is distracting Shaun" and then Han said "I find a quiet operating room distracting". And Han basically refused to turn off the music. It sure seemed like Han came in knowing that the music would bother Shaun and did it just to see what would happen. 

[KaveDweller]

5 hours ago, MVN-Hokies said:

If I remember correctly, he asked for the music to be turned on, Shaun didn't say anything but he was affected by it. Didn't one of the other surgeon's say something to Han when they realized Shaun wasn't happy wit it? I thought the conversation went something like: "The music is distracting Shaun" and then Han said "I find a quiet operating room distracting". And Han basically refused to turn off the music. It sure seemed like Han came in knowing that the music would bother Shaun and did it just to see what would happen. 

If Han deliberately played music loudly to disturb Shaun, then he is an asshole. But, if Shaun is going to be a surgeon, he I'm sure there will be some times where he can't control the noise. They can try and accommodate him as much as possible, but I thought Hahn was just trying to test whether Shaun could adapt if needed.

[rmontro]

6 hours ago, MVN-Hokies said:

I thought the conversation went something like: "The music is distracting Shaun" and then Han said "I find a quiet operating room distracting".

I just watched this back to make sure (yeah, I need to get a life).  The music comes on, Shaun whips his head around like "what is going on?".  And Clair, I think, says "The music is distracting".  She doesn't mention Shaun, but it does appear she is saying it because she noticed his discomfort.  Then Dr. Han starts quizzing everybody, Shaun does well, but Clair doesn't remember some formula.

You may well be right, but I can't tell if Dr. Han asked for the music because he wanted to test Shaun, or if he really does like loud music when he operates.  

Be that as it may, I have heard of surgeons who like to play music when they operate, so it's not unusual.  Like a lot of people, some have their own quirks.

[readster]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

I just watched this back to make sure (yeah, I need to get a life).  The music comes on, Shaun whips his head around like "what is going on?".  And Clair, I think, says "The music is distracting".  She doesn't mention Shaun, but it does appear she is saying it because she noticed his discomfort.  Then Dr. Han starts quizzing everybody, Shaun does well, but Clair doesn't remember some formula.

You may well be right, but I can't tell if Dr. Han asked for the music because he wanted to test Shaun, or if he really does like loud music when he operates.  

Be that as it may, I have heard of surgeons who like to play music when they operate, so it's not unusual.  Like a lot of people, some have their own quirks.

I've read that various doctors like certain atmospheres. Some do want complete quiet, so if they hear something out of place they can react. Some want classical, others enjoy Today's Hits. Han's problem is he likes it a certain way can't stand it any other way. That's very box thinking for someone who wants to be open minded. As they say: "I'm not you! I'm me!"

[doctor destiny]

1 hour ago, readster said:

I've read that various doctors like certain atmospheres. Some do want complete quiet, so if they hear something out of place they can react. Some want classical, others enjoy Today's Hits. Han's problem is he likes it a certain way can't stand it any other way. That's very box thinking for someone who wants to be open minded. As they say: "I'm not you! I'm me!"

I don't think there is any doubt that he knew prior that Shaun was autistic and was sensitive to sound.  He knew about the medical board investigation (from Aoki and Andrew's conversation) and he knew the individual histories of at least Melendez and Park. He hasn't been playing loud music on his surgeries since.  It was at best a test and worst trying to show up Shaun's weaknesses.  His remit is to keep the medical board at bay.  Pushing Shaun into pathology ahead of the board is a plus for him.  He may even think he is doing Shaun a favor making him less of a target.    

[bros402]

13 hours ago, rmontro said:

Did they specifically say that Dr. Han played that loud music to affect Shaun?  I must have missed that part.  Or are you just assuming it?  Not saying you're wrong, but he did say he liked to operate with the loud music.  Even if he didn't do it to put Shaun off, I'd say it's pretty selfish.  I've heard of doctors doing this, but I would find it distracting if I was there, and I'm not autistic.

The main difference I see between diabetes and autism is that as far as I'm aware, there are no autistic surgeons in real life.

There could be surgeons with autism in real life, though - even if it would be unlikely - especially since a lot of people with autism have motor skill issues. There are doctors with autism - no surgeons yet, though, at least none that are officially diagnosed..

Edited March 1, 2019 by bros402

[possibilities]

There used to be no WOMEN surgeons. Someone has to be the first.

[ForReal]

6 hours ago, bros402 said:

There could be surgeons with autism in real life, though - even if it would be unlikely - especially since a lot of people with autism have motor skill issues. There are doctors with autism - no surgeons yet, though, at least none that are officially diagnosed..

Oliver Sacks wrote about a Canadian surgeon with Tourettes who struggled with lots of stims, but he controlled them well enough to perform surgery and fly a plane.

[tkc]

21 hours ago, rmontro said:

Did they specifically say that Dr. Han played that loud music to affect Shaun?  I must have missed that part.  Or are you just assuming it?

So, are you asking if Han shot first?  😉

(scurries back to peanut gallery)

[doctor destiny]

11 hours ago, bros402 said:

There could be surgeons with autism in real life, though - even if it would be unlikely - especially since a lot of people with autism have motor skill issues. There are doctors with autism - no surgeons yet, though, at least none that are officially diagnosed..

I am sure there have been hundreds if not probably thousands of Aspie surgeons, many working in the field today.  It's a field that lends itself to those specific strengths.  Many autistic people are hiding in plain sight and it would be good to showcase some of these co=workers in future series.  Surgeons aren't known for having the best bedside manner and are also known for being quirky.  Aspies with communication difficulties learn the algorithms of bedside manner very well.  As Shaun will do over time.  The ability to cut in an OR with others in the end should be the primary function - I know that's what I would be looking for.  But of course that means collaborating and a senior surgeon ordering others to do specific prescribed actions.  "Shaun never misses a beat in the OR..."  That's what matters.

As to savant syndrome:  http://www.internationalopulence.com/could-a-savvy-surgeon-have-autism-savant-syndrome/  I'm not a great fan of Rain Man because of the misconceptions that followed about other autistic people but having savant syndrome which used to be called being an idiot savant does not preclude a high IQ and precocious abilities in difficult professions.  My very bright son has some strong savant abilities and we are hoping to get him through a PhD program eventually.  He has also been treated as having cognitive difficulties and bullied due to his dyspraxia.  Which is partly why this arc hurts like hell for me personally.  (And no there is nothing wrong with having cognitive difficulties but the assumption you have them can lead to the lifepath altering actions).

[bros402]

12 hours ago, doctor destiny said:

I am sure there have been hundreds if not probably thousands of Aspie surgeons, many working in the field today.  It's a field that lends itself to those specific strengths.  Many autistic people are hiding in plain sight and it would be good to showcase some of these co=workers in future series.  Surgeons aren't known for having the best bedside manner and are also known for being quirky.  Aspies with communication difficulties learn the algorithms of bedside manner very well.  As Shaun will do over time.  The ability to cut in an OR with others in the end should be the primary function - I know that's what I would be looking for.  But of course that means collaborating and a senior surgeon ordering others to do specific prescribed actions.  "Shaun never misses a beat in the OR..."  That's what matters.

As to savant syndrome:  http://www.internationalopulence.com/could-a-savvy-surgeon-have-autism-savant-syndrome/  I'm not a great fan of Rain Man because of the misconceptions that followed about other autistic people but having savant syndrome which used to be called being an idiot savant does not preclude a high IQ and precocious abilities in difficult professions.  My very bright son has some strong savant abilities and we are hoping to get him through a PhD program eventually.  He has also been treated as having cognitive difficulties and bullied due to his dyspraxia.  Which is partly why this arc hurts like hell for me personally.  (And no there is nothing wrong with having cognitive difficulties but the assumption you have them can lead to the lifepath altering actions).

Definitely - I agree with you.

Maybe all surgeons are people with autism and sociopaths 😛 - since aren't something like 8% of surgeons sociopaths?

Yeah, Rain Man has a horrible portrayal of Autism. I have autism, dysgraphia, social anxiety, social phobia, generalized anxiety, fine & gross motor dysfunction, a whole pile of fun stuff. One time in HS, I was getting an evaluation as part of my IEP, the case manager turns to me and starts talking at me in that way people talk to people with disabilities, while yelling "HELLO, JUST SO YOU KNOW, I HAVE SOME CRACKERS AND JUICE IF YOUR BLOOD SUGAR GETS LOW." I asked her why she was yelling, she said she thought I had hearing issues, then I asked about the crackers and she said "What? Aren't you diabetic?"

Discrimination due to disability is always annoying - when I was getting my BA, I was sick of it and had to complain about a professor - 24 hours after I contacted a person who could actually do something about it, the university's legal counsel called me and asked for my attorney's information (I had submitted a complaint in writing along with being interviewed by the individual at the college I reported the incidents to). I told them I didn't have an attorney and they were like "What? Really? Oh. Okay. Wow."

Of course, after that any kind of.. issue where I had to meet with people at the college, notification was sent via certified mail, the meetings were recorded, and there were like 6 people in rooms meant for 3

[theatremouse]

On 2/28/2019 at 10:32 AM, MVN-Hokies said:

I thought the conversation went something like: "The music is distracting Shaun" and then Han said "I find a quiet operating room distracting". And Han basically refused to turn off the music. It sure seemed like Han came in knowing that the music would bother Shaun and did it just to see what would happen. 

My understanding is it is very common for surgeons to have their own surgery playlists. Not everyone does it, but it's not out of the norm by any means. Knowing that, my read on the situation was more that Han is one of those surgeons: he has his music and he does his thing. That scene played to me like he was unwilling to alter his normal routine to accommodate Murphy, not that he intentionally decided to play music just that one time with the intention of needling Murphy. Whether he knew/suspected in advance it might be problematic for Murphy, to me is a little beside the point, because what was happening was new Chief Doing Things His Way, fuck anybody else.

[doctor destiny]

2 hours ago, theatremouse said:

My understanding is it is very common for surgeons to have their own surgery playlists. Not everyone does it, but it's not out of the norm by any means. Knowing that, my read on the situation was more that Han is one of those surgeons: he has his music and he does his thing. That scene played to me like he was unwilling to alter his normal routine to accommodate Murphy, not that he intentionally decided to play music just that one time with the intention of needling Murphy. Whether he knew/suspected in advance it might be problematic for Murphy, to me is a little beside the point, because what was happening was new Chief Doing Things His Way, fuck anybody else.

If you notice, he doesn't play music loudly or even at all in other surgeries.  It was the same intent IMHO that put Melendez in his place to do the corporate wellness check, that put Claire down for not knowing an equation in surgery and called Resnick out for her toadiness.  He has done his homework and would have read the assessments.  He says the same to Claire when she brought him the summary of Shaun's unique contributions knowing that she has stood up to her seniors before.  It's more than doing things my way; it's the equivalent of a cat pissing on its territory.  Therefore it's likely that he pre-judged Shaun as a liability knowing he was up before the medical board.  And that makes his subsequent actions illegal.

[TurtlePower]

You all have covered just about everything but I must say, the last couple episodes frustrated me as someone on the spectrum and who has worked in the medical field. To me, Shaun didn't do anything wrong regarding the mother's question last episode. He answered the patient's question honestly, then got jacked up for it. You could ask a computer the same information and get the same answer.  Will the average person throw the machine out the window because they don't like its answer? Because it wasn't "sensitive" enough? Will the machine be banished to a different department? Why are the expectations different with humans? 

It is mentally exhausting trying to fit into a world where you cannot be yourself and frustrating trying to figure out social expectations. I'm in my 40s now and even though I've learned quite a bit, "lying on the fly" does not come naturally to me.

Regarding this episode, Shaun was openly discriminated against by Dr. Han. Sending him off to pathology without trying to find a workaround with Shaun was not legal. Plus, his colleagues understand and support him. Hopefully they'll show Han making a turnaround soon or he could be faced with a discrimination complaint. Anyone in Han's position must have had disability discrimination education and should know better. 

[rmontro]

22 hours ago, doctor destiny said:

If you notice, he doesn't play music loudly or even at all in other surgeries. 

This is true, but that doesn't mean he played it specifically to mess with Sean.  Having loud music blaring would not make for good viewing.  Maybe they just wanted the loud music in that one scene "for dramatic purposes" and dropped it after that, because it makes for lousy scenes.

[greekmom]

So Shaun instead of making his assumptions and moving onto the next case, went the extra mile, disproved Dr. Dick's diagnosis and still is in pathology?!?! What the actual f*&k?  

At this point, Dr. Dick doesn't care if Shaun is a decent doctor, can work independently or anything he told Lim.  He is biased just on the fact that Shaun is autistic. Such as someone would be sexists towards a female doctor or racist against a visible minority doctor.  Which is sad because I am sure Dr. Dick has been subjected to prejudice himself being a visible minority but doesn't understand or want to understand that he's dishing the same crap that probably has been served to him in the past.

UGH! 

[PinkRibbons]

Whenever Han talks about Shaun's "problems", I replace his word with "ovaries" automatically. Really hammers home the fucked-up.

The more I think about Glassman though, the madder I am at him this episode. Responding to Shaun's distress over his situation with "assert yourself" is ABSURD. The second he heard that Shaun had been forcibly transferred his phone should have been out of his pocket and calling the meanest lawyer that ever sued the hospital when he himself ran it. This is not a time for proving yourself, it's a time for exercising your goddam legal rights.

[bros402]

1 hour ago, PinkRibbons said:

Whenever Han talks about Shaun's "problems", I replace his word with "ovaries" automatically. Really hammers home the fucked-up.

The more I think about Glassman though, the madder I am at him this episode. Responding to Shaun's distress over his situation with "assert yourself" is ABSURD. The second he heard that Shaun had been forcibly transferred his phone should have been out of his pocket and calling the meanest lawyer that ever sued the hospital when he himself ran it. This is not a time for proving yourself, it's a time for exercising your goddam legal rights.

I can sort of see Glassman's point - but it is a lesson he should have imparted onto Shaun many years ago - the importance of self-advocacy. Glassman should've been calling the board - just because he left doesn't mean the board won't answer his calls. I bet they'd love to nip a lawsuit waiting to happen in the bud - and give Shaun some money just so he doesn't sue the hospital so hard he'd have enough money to be on the hospital's Board.

[Lady Calypso]

5 hours ago, bros402 said:

I can sort of see Glassman's point - but it is a lesson he should have imparted onto Shaun many years ago - the importance of self-advocacy. Glassman should've been calling the board - just because he left doesn't mean the board won't answer his calls. I bet they'd love to nip a lawsuit waiting to happen in the bud - and give Shaun some money just so he doesn't sue the hospital so hard he'd have enough money to be on the hospital's Board.

So true. But so far, nobody is telling Shaun that he might have a case of discrimination that he can take to a lawyer, and I think the show is more interested in the drama of it all. Perhaps in the finale, someone will finally point out that Shaun could take action against Han since Han moving Shaun to Pathology is 100% about his autism, rather than his skills, but as of right now, I'm a bit annoyed that not even Glassman took pause to think "Hey, Han is wrong and we could take this to the board." Glassman's right in that Shaun does need to advocate for himself. He's wrong in allowing Shaun to deal with this on his own. Glassman's been preoccupied, sure, but Shaun could really use his help right now. I know Glassman pointed out that he could talk to Han himself but he has no power. Ok, great, but you could still do something. I'm glad other members of the hospital are standing up for Shaun, but nobody's pointing out the very obvious route they could go, and I'm not sure why.

[greekmom]

7 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

The more I think about Glassman though, the madder I am at him this episode. Responding to Shaun's distress over his situation with "assert yourself" is ABSURD. The second he heard that Shaun had been forcibly transferred his phone should have been out of his pocket and calling the meanest lawyer that ever sued the hospital when he himself ran it. This is not a time for proving yourself, it's a time for exercising your goddam legal rights.

I agree. Shaun is a young man and the autism does give him some naive nature.  Let's use Claire as an example.  When she was sexually harassed, what if she was so shamed that she wanted to keep quiet but confided in her mentor? Her mentor would tell her that grow up and stand up for yourself?  Maybe. But mentor would also assist her in getting a lawyer.  

That's the problem I am finding with the whole situation. 

[satrunrose]

On 2/27/2019 at 3:06 PM, possibilities said:

It's not that I think being in the fetal position on the floor is something everyone should pretend is totally cool, but he snapped out of it quickly and then did a really good job. The situation should be investigated, and I'd even be open to him being put on probation while he shows he can handle the stress of the job. But other doctors have screwed up and misbehaved, also, and that is the crux of the matter.

To be honest, I'm even on Shaun's side for the fetal position incident. At the time, Shawn had multiple patients in crisis, including a close coworkers's son. Three people were dead, his mentor probably dying and his colleague (the only other person who could take charge) had her hands in a patient's guts. Plus, at least 3-4 people were yelling at him. Oh, and he hadn't eaten in an unknown amount of time. I'm neurotypical and I think the only thing that would have kept me from being in the fetal position was an understanding that I can't in a situation like that. Would it have been more acceptable for Shaun to respond in a more neurotypical way like yelling at someone, bursting into tears or running to hide in the bathroom? I would argue that those responses would be equally useless in the situation, just more acceptable socially. (And yes, I get that Shaun would have eaten if he didn't have an aversion to pickles, but I'd be in the same boat if it had been peanut butter sandwiches (allergic) or pesto (haaaate).)

Edited March 5, 2019 by satrunrose

[possibilities]

I want you all to run my local hospital! And also write my TV shows.

[jhlipton]

Y'all gonna hate me, buit I think Han is right.  Just because Shaun wants to be a surgeon doesn't give him the right to be one.  I'll bet the Chief of Surgeons at any hospital has a lot of discretion over who gets to "play" and who doesn't.  And I think the best alternativ is for Shaun to get over "some time life isn't fair" and that he doesn't get special treatment just because he has autism -- he should stay in pathhology with the ability to take "walks" when he sees something and to tell one of the staff about it.

All the stuff he eventually told Han, he could have told Park or Lin.

On 2/25/2019 at 8:03 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I found her to be a little bit pushy, even though she fixed it in the end. I

On 2/26/2019 at 4:24 PM, rmontro said:

They came close to portraying the minister as an idiot for wanting to hang onto his pain, but he was just suffering from guilt.  So yeah, they handled it pretty well overall.

I wsas glad Claire gave the "WTF????" reaction that I have to the "God has a paln" line the minister used, although they dropped it pretty quickly.  I could go on about why I find this so offensive but this isn't the forum for that.