Leaving Neverland

[Dorne2.0]

Oh my God, I live in Brazil now and fans in Brazil are not taking this well... One woman wrote long texts on youtube explaining how she studied the case for years and repeating all you know fans are repeating everywhere. It seems because a small part of the population speaks English and those who do are super into American Music they will not hear of it. The only reviewer on youtube that seems to get positive responses are from a reviewer that says that while it seems probable MJ abused those kids no one can no for sure. I made a comment the fans just left me huge texts picking everything apart trying to find proof James and Wade were lying. The funny part is I just skimmed through a response to me and found something wrong just randomly. The girl said James claims he didn't tell his mom until 2013 and later contradicted himself. I was quick to say "no, he refused to testify in 2005 and told his mom Michael was a bad man. But he didn't give any details, Later his mom said that when he died, in 2009, she danced and was happy. She understood what her son meant and didn't push him for details because he was not ready". She was so mad and emotional and so pathetic. I had to tell her I was not going to keep reading her responses because I actually had a life and that if she wanted so bad MJ to be innocent, she was free to believe what she wanted. All I did I start the conversation replying to her comment in which she talked about Wade dating Jackson's niece, that there were no alarms leading to his bedroom, that Chandler had gone back and said his father made him lie about MJ, that Gavin did the same, that he was found not guilty.... I know I watched this later than everyone and I am still feeling raw but I fucking hate these cultist M.J fans, I feel like people are the worst. And finally I wanna find James, give him a hug, say I believe him and protect him from all the hate. All the videos on youtube bashing on Wade, James and the doc, people are gross. And may M.J burn in hell. I thought I would come out of this feeling sorry for him as well as he was clearly mentally ill but no, I hate him so much. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[Neko]

Wade and James are very brave for coming forward, knowing exactly what they would receive from the fans.  They were around MJ for years, they saw firsthand just how crazy his fans could be.  I wish I could write them and tell them how brave they are, and how they have more support than they think they do.  This was not an easy thing for them to do, to put it mildly.

Anyway, MJ superfans are indeed crazy.  I always wondered why people treat Michael Jackson as if he were some kind of god.  He made good music, he could dance, he seemed like a nice, humble man, before we knew what he was really like, but for god's sake, he wasn't magic.  He didn't cure cancer.  He didn't go back in time and prevent the Holocaust from happening.  He was a human being.  And, like all human beings, he was flawed.  Very, very flawed.  Just because you like Billie Jean, that's no reason to act like a crazy person over someone you never met.  I will never understand that.

[ruby24]

28 minutes ago, Shakma said:

Wade and James are very brave for coming forward, knowing exactly what they would receive from the fans.  They were around MJ for years, they saw firsthand just how crazy his fans could be.  I wish I could write them and tell them how brave they are, and how they have more support than they think they do.  This was not an easy thing for them to do, to put it mildly.

Anyway, MJ superfans are indeed crazy.  I always wondered why people treat Michael Jackson as if he were some kind of god.  He made good music, he could dance, he seemed like a nice, humble man, before we knew what he was really like, but for god's sake, he wasn't magic.  He didn't cure cancer.  He didn't go back in time and prevent the Holocaust from happening.  He was a human being.  And, like all human beings, he was flawed.  Very, very flawed.  Just because you like Billie Jean, that's no reason to act like a crazy person over someone you never met.  I will never understand that.

Yeah, see I'm not even sure how much of this he was. He was a fantasist who lived on another planet completely alienated from normal people. I think people mistook him for nice and humble because he wasn't hostile or aggressive in his manner. He was quiet and gentle. Like a snake.

But he was a narcissist and he used that quiet demeanor entirely in the service of getting what HE wanted. Like others said in here, he didn't give money to charities or hospitals to help kids or do things like that. He only wanted an image of someone who loved kids to partially justify why he had so many young boys around him all the time. But he was entirely motivated by pedophilia. Other than music and touring, his only focus was satisfying his criminal sexual perversion.

In some ways it's crazy that he could be so successful at his day job while constantly servicing that perversion, but I think you could argue that his music and output began to go downhill after he bought Neverland. I don't know how many boys there were before Neverland (though I'm guessing it might have been more one at a time, since these were the years when he was perfecting his "technique,"- I do think Jimmy was an early victim), but I think it's inarguable that the victim count increased exponentially once he got that place, and so did his self-destruction.

But this idea that he was so nice and kind, I don't know- I think that was an act to lure the kids and parents in. I think because he was calm and quiet on the outside, people didn't recoil from his manner or find him threatening. People sometimes say you have to watch out for the quiet ones. Just because they're not expressing their intentions openly doesn't mean they're not working them bit by bit.

And he was smart, because he knew exactly how to manipulate his image and saw that people would respond to a kind, gentle soul- all that grooming he did of the Safechucks, going to their house and making them feel like they were helping him. That was all part of it. He knew exactly what he wanted from this family and why he was there. He was willing to put in the time and effort to reel them in, so he could get it.

God, it's so scary when you think about how plotted out this was. You wonder if he was crazy, did he really think he was in love with these boys when he would do this? Or was it all open, calculated, slow manipulation so that the boys would think they were in love and protect him and their "secret" no matter what? Playing the long game with each of them?

Edited March 30, 2019 by ruby24

[Dorne2.0]

Exactly, Ruby24. I know. He build a persona to gaslight everyone. He "groomed an entire generation" or I believe more than one generation, as my sister is another die hard fan I won't even discuss this with her because we have a shaky relationship.

As for his cult of fans, I regretted even commenting on the video, whatever you do don't comment on youtube about this, make a video refuting all the fans excuses and shut down the comments, if you like, I wish someone would. I was tempted to destroy their case when they were responding to me yesterday but I was so tired having not slept the night before and trying to stay awake by distracting myself on facebook so I would sleep at night, and they just kept replying and replying and saying I was reading tabloids( and I actually am a lawyer, not practicing, but I am one) but I had zero patience to reply to everything in a foreign language so I just gave up because nothing I was going to say would convince them, they don't want to believe. 

Also the reviewer who made the video obviously thought Michael was guilty too, he just didn't want to say it because it would make him lose subscribers, so he said "maybe... I can't know for sure, though these facts are really suspicious." That was enough for the fans to praise him so desperate they are for someone not condemning M.J right away. Literally there were so thankful, it's unbelievable they care more about a dead person accused of abuse than living people who say they were abused, like James and Wade.

On Oprah's interview, Wade seemed to be dealing with this better, but then I noticed the sweat spots on his armpits, poor Wade.

I wish I could someway tell both of them I believe them as well, Shakma.

I was a fan of Michael's music but after I found out about these allegations at my early teens I stopped listening to him. I was born in 1987 and my mom had been a fan so I listened to his songs and loved the Thriller video...  I didn't found out about Jordy Chandler until I was old enough to undersand it I don't remember when... my parents never bought more cds but we listened to those we had already.

I was, I admit, always fascinated with him, like watching a train wreck... And I was always worried about his own children too, because the man was not sane, remember him almost dropping Blanket? 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[ruby24]

People just don't think of sexual predators as being painstaking or manipulative in their approach. They think of them as being impulsive, aggressive men who jump on you because they're driven by their urges and can't control themselves.

And that's more or less kind of what you hear about with men who harass and assault women, often grabbing them or flashing them or attacking them with an unwanted, out of nowhere kiss or grope or rape, etc. The Harvey Weinstein type who takes what he wants. Even when it's men that the women know or their own partners, the assault is with physical force, so that's what people are familiar with and recognize.

This kind of seduction and manipulation and complete brainwashing of people over long periods of time before finally taking what they want (and then keeping them in a "relationship" they've convinced them is love) seems alien to people, I think. They can't imagine it. It's a little more cult-like, imo, the way people are indoctrinated into that sort of thing.

But like Oprah said, the kind of abuser who targets kids goes after them AND their families, and this is they way they do it, because that's how they succeed, by convincing them it's love and it's "mutual," because they don't know any better. Although, I guess like Jimmy Savile, there are child molesters who grab and assault kids in the other way too- but he was probably more of the kind of violent personality type whereas MJ was a passive-aggressive one.

Edited March 30, 2019 by ruby24

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

But this idea that he was so nice and kind, I don't know- I think that was an act to lure the kids and parents in. I think because he was calm and quiet on the outside, people didn't recoil from his manner or find him threatening. People sometimes say you have to watch out for the quiet ones. Just because they're not expressing their intentions openly doesn't mean they're not working them bit by bit. 

It was funny how in the doc they all said how he was the nicest and kindest and yet never gave any examples. I guess they might have been cut out but it's funny after watching the whole thing you don't come away with any anecdote at all about Michael actually being there when any of these people needed him or doing anything nice for them at all. All his niceness and generosity seemed to come in the form of generic flattery, gifts or attention to get him what he wanted or that he enjoyed himself. Like that interview with Jimmy here he's saying, "You're my favorite part of the tour!" or whatever. That cost him nothing, he knew how much it would mean to him and it was pretty meaningless or ultimately harmful. His promises were completely false--he wouldn't take care of them forever etc.

Meanwhile there were plenty of examples of him being the opposite of nice and kind. Waking people up to summon their kid to his bed. Dumping them all when he lost interest and then crawling back when he needed them to lie for him. Replacing them with new kids. Running off with kids where the parents couldn't find them. Making little kids responsible for his well-being through threats. And oh yeah, the rape.

[Dorne2.0]

18 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Meanwhile there were plenty of examples of him being the opposite of nice and kind. Waking people up to summon their kid to his bed. Dumping them all when he lost interest and then crawling back when he needed them to lie for him. Replacing them with new kids. Running off with kids where the parents couldn't find them. Making little kids responsible for his well-being through threats. And oh yeah, the rape.

I thik the generous part was him just buying people stuff and giving them money, they also talked about him going into a toy stores and others stores with the kids/kids and families and just saying take everything you want, or just giving them a credit card to go shopping. Buying them jewelry and so (the video found of him and Jimmy in a jewelry store in Jimmy's town really disturbed me.)

I was watching "Surviving R. Kelly" and God, I'm on episode 3, but I think I will stop for today...God. I should really watch some fiction on Netflix. R. Kelly needs to go to jail, I don't think I will sleep tonight. I didn't when I watched the Madeleine Mccann documentary or when I watched Leaving Neverland... I think it's important to watch to recognise the abuse patterns and support the victims.... but to be honest since I was young I liked Agatha Christie books and so, so true crime always get my attention, but then it haunts me. 

Edited March 31, 2019 by Dorne2.0
I meant Jimmy not Wade.

[Brattinella]

@Dorne2.0 I have many unpopular opinions.  I get lots of flak from several online sites.  I usually don't feel like battling them, or defending my opinions.  I just put them on ignore, or if it gets too bad, simply walk away.  They can't hurt your feelings if you aren't reading their crap.  I would suggest that you find some alternatives to YT and FB, if they are so nasty to you.  I don't use either one anymore.  I happen to agree that MJ was guilty as hell and I believe those boys 100%.  If someone wants to fight me over that, they are welcome to try; I won't be paying attention. :)

[ruby24]

13 minutes ago, Dorne2.0 said:

I thik the generous part was him just buying people stuff and giving them money, they also talked about him going into a toy stores and others stores with the kids/kids and families and just saying take everything you want, or just giving them a credit card to go shopping. Buying them jewelry and so (the video found of him and Wade in a jewelry store in Wade's town really disturbed me.

That was James in the jewelry store video, actually.

Yeah, but to me the whole thing about telling people to just take a cart and fill it with whatever you want, everything you want...I don't know, that kind of behavior isn't so much generous to me as more like, this person wants something from you.

Maybe I was raised to be suspicious of people or something, but my mom always taught me from a young age that you will be indebted to anyone who financially supports you (aside from actual family), or wants to give you too many things. To always be on guard with stuff like that, that if someone is constantly buying you stuff, whether it's just material things, or is always the one to pay for dinner or going out anywhere, or just gives you too much, that it's a bad thing and it means you will never be on equal footing with this person, that they want to be able to control you.

She basically wanted me to always be self-sufficient, but it left me with a deeply ingrained discomfort or suspicion of anyone who wants to give me too much, for supposedly nothing in return. So when I hear those stories about him, like giving James the $700 in cash or whatever it was, or telling Wade and his whole family to just pile stuff up in a cart, I remember my mom and I can't imagine that she ever would have been okay with someone doing that. She would have known that they were trying to buy us off, that it wasn't out of "kindness" that he was doing stuff like that.

Edited March 30, 2019 by ruby24

[Dorne2.0]

19 hours ago, Brattinella said:

@Dorne2.0 I have many unpopular opinions.  I get lots of flak from several online sites.  I usually don't feel like battling them, or defending my opinions.  I just put them on ignore, or if it gets too bad, simply walk away.  They can't hurt your feelings if you aren't reading their crap.  I would suggest that you find some alternatives to YT and FB, if they are so nasty to you.  I don't use either one anymore.  I happen to agree that MJ was guilty as hell and I believe those boys 100%.  If someone wants to fight me over that, they are welcome to try; I won't be paying attention. 🙂

I had never actually had a response (on youtube) like that before. I don't like commenting on Youtube. Maybe I did get nasty response before but I ignored them, but I just cared about James and Wade story so much I had just watched the doc so I was annoyed. But even so I only corrected the girl wrong about something James said and then didn't read the long texts and just wrote: "I won't be reading all these texts, if  you need him to be innocent that much you can believe whatever you want."  But really this is child abuse in its worst and it makes me furious people attack James and Wade.

About facebook I know it's a trap, I didn't even try to dicuss anything of actual importance, like, that would be crazy (I've given up on discussing Game of Thrones and the ASOIAF books there already). Now I only talk on facebook about fiction and banalities. But thank you for caring. ❤️

19 hours ago, ruby24 said:

That was James in the jewelry store video, actually.

Yeah, but to me the whole thing about telling people to just take a cart and fill it with whatever you want, everything you want...I don't know, that kind of behavior isn't so much generous to me as more like, this person wants something from you.

Maybe I was raised to be suspicious of people or something, but my mom always taught me from a young age that you will be indebted to anyone who financially supports you (aside from actual family), or wants to give you too many things. To always be on guard with stuff like that, that if someone is constantly buying you stuff, whether it's just material things, or is always the one to pay for dinner or going out anywhere, or just gives you too much, that it's a bad thing and it means you will never be on equal footing with this person, that they want to be able to control you.

She basically wanted me to always be self-sufficient, but it left me with a deeply ingrained discomfort or suspicion of anyone who wants to give me too much, for supposedly nothing in return. So when I hear those stories about him, like giving James the $700 in cash or whatever it was, or telling Wade and his whole family to just pile stuff up in a cart, I remember my mom and I can't imagine that she ever would have been okay with someone doing that. She would have known that they were trying to buy us off, that it wasn't out of "kindness" that he was doing stuff like that.

I was thinking of Jimmy but wrote Wade, I corrected it. His story about the mock wedding actually effed me up, 

About Michael giving people money and buying them things, I agree 100%, he was making them dependant on him and trying to buy the kids and their families. I also would never let anyone but my family support me. I always insisted in splitting the check, since I started dating, because I always said the only man that can ever pay for things for me is my father... Not that I ever needed people to support me since I was an adult...not saying anything about people who need other help to survive, I am privileged, but Jimmy and Wade's family weren't starving, in fact Wade had a pool and a nice middle class country life, Jimmy's family wasn't really poor either....but MJ bought them a four bedroom house with a pool and supposedly gave gim dad as much as two million dollars, if he is the garbage man LaToya was talking about, UGH, I think he had to know. Which makes me furious.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[sistermagpie]

34 minutes ago, Dorne2.0 said:

I thik the generous part was him just buying people stuff and giving them money, they also talked about him going into a toy stores and others stores with the kids/kids and families and just saying take everything you want, or just giving them a credit card to go shopping. Buying them jewelry and so (the video found of him and Jimmy in a jewelry store in Jimmy's town really disturbed me.)

Exactly. And that stuff is meaningless. He had enough money that he could spend that much without missing it at all. He doesn't have to really know or care what they need or like. He just uses his bank account like a magic wand to impress and make people want to keep him pleased. He got far more than he gave. But there's no examples of him ever doing something to genuinely do anything for these people just because it's good for them. They didn't even seem to have a relationship where if they felt down they would want to talk to Michael. Meanwhile these women are doing his laundry for him.

[Neko]

32 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Yeah, but to me the whole thing about telling people to just take a cart and fill it with whatever you want, everything you want...I don't know, that kind of behavior isn't so much generous to me as more like, this person wants something from you.

I have to agree.  I don't see that as generosity, as much as I see it as manipulation.  Of course, any kid would love being able to go to a toy store and fill up a cart with whatever they wanted, but you aren't really helping children by buying them more plastic crap than they need.  That's just classic, grooming behavior.

So, I have a question: did Michael Jackson ever start any charities or foundations for children?  I'm confused about that.  I had heard that he did contribute to charities, like the Make A Wish foundation (which is super creepy, in light of what we know), but I don't know if he ever started any, of his own.  Does anyone have any info, on that? 

Another question: would Michael have understood that the type of relationship he had with these boys even without any kind of molestation was inappropriate and damaging, or was there a part of him that really believed he was on the same level as these kids?  I'm trying to figure out just how calculating he was, but I think it's impossible to determine.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Shakma

[Growsonwalls]

Everything I've read about Michael suggests a very calculating person. For instance he bought the Beatles catalogue for a pittance (47.5 million) compared to what they're actually worth. He was incredibly shrewd about money in general. Apparently he charged an arm and a leg for Paul McCartney to perform his own songs from the Beatles catalogue. 

He was also shrewd in his dealings with his siblings. They've spoken about how from an early age MJ separated himself from them and ended up keeping most of the earnings of the Jackson 5 to himself. 

And when you hear his interviews you can see the calculation. Take away the childlike voice, take away the mannerisms, and you'll see how careful he is not to say anything. 

[Brattinella]

2 hours ago, Dorne2.0 said:

I had never actually had a response (on youtube) like that before. I don't like commenting on Youtube. Maybe I did get nasty response before but I ignored them, but I just cared about James and Wade story so much I had just watched the doc so I was annoyed. But even so I only corrected the girl wrong about something James said and than didn't read the long texts and just wrote: "I won't be reading alll these texts, if  you need him to be innocent that much you can believe whatever you want."  But really this is child abuse in its worst and it makes me furious people attack James and Wade.

About facebook I know it's a trap, I didn't even try to dicuss anything of actual importance, like, that would be crazy (I've given up on discussing Game of Thrones and the ASOIAF books there already). I watched both episodes of Leaving Neverland and than the Oprah special and it was early morning. Now I only talk on facebook about fiction and banalities. But thank you for caring. ❤️

You are most welcome.  There are few places left on the internet where you can speak your mind and not be attacked.

[TigerLynx]

When it comes to MJ taking the kids and families to the toy store, and telling them to get whatever they want, I understand why people should be suspicious of that, and why in certain instances they weren't.  MJ was born into a poor family, who became a success, and at this point he was a millionaire.  It probably seemed nice that MJ was trying to give back or give to others who weren't as fortunate.  Unfortunately, altruism is not that common, whereas people trying to take advantage of a situation to get why they want is.  MJ actually had the all power and control in those situations.

[Neko]

42 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

When it comes to MJ taking the kids and families to the toy store, and telling them to get whatever they want, I understand why people should be suspicious of that, and why in certain instances they weren't.  MJ was born into a poor family, who became a success, and at this point he was a millionaire.  It probably seemed nice that MJ was trying to give back or give to others who weren't as fortunate.  Unfortunately, altruism is not that common, whereas people trying to take advantage of a situation to get why they want is.  MJ actually had the all power and control in those situations.

This is exactly what I was trying to say.  Thank you.

[Robert Lynch]

I always thought that interview with MJ was super weird and very telling, with the giggles or whatever. A lot of people thought the Zales one with James is an example of his grooming. I think Wade waiting for the History album at Tower Records was very telling of MJ's grooming techniques. Wade showing a letter with pink hearts to MJ and the almost uncomfortable feeling he felt being addressed in a crowd of teenagers who looked at him strangely. What an awkward position.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[Neko]

So, Wade was good friends with MJ, but he had to wait in line and buy a copy of his newest album?  MJ couldn't just give him a copy?

The letter with the hearts is weird.  I don't know exactly how old Wade is in this video, but he looks about 13/14, to me.  What teenage boy writes letters to grown men with hearts?  Looking back, there are so many warning signs that something wasn't right.  It's so depressing.

[Razzberry]

Wade and James were utterly believable and brutally honest even when it didn't put them or their family in such a good light. 

People can believe what they want, but I don't have any patience for the angry defenders of Jackson who are all over the net these days in attack mode. They'll pick apart the slightest discrepancy, or cite his acquittal as "proof" of innocence.  Looking at the totality of the evidence Leaving Neverland just confirmed what many thought all along. Grown men don't prefer sleeping with young boys without something going on.

[Razzberry]

What do people think of the paintings of himself all over his house?  This one's my favorite -

His last commissioned work with the artist

[Melina22]

Ooh boy. That's some scary stuff. I wonder what my friends and family would think if they came over and I'd put up giant paintings all over the house of me as the queen, me as an angel, me as the saviour of the world, me next to Gandhi and Lincoln? I'm guessing they'd grab me and run me to the nearest mental health clinic. And they'd be right to do it. 

He may have claimed to be humble and meek, but his choice of wall art begged to differ. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Melina22

[kathe5133]

Weirdo!

[Robert Lynch]

8 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Ooh boy. That's some scary stuff. I wonder what my friends and family would think if they came over and I'd put up giant paintings all over the house of me as the queen, me as an angel, me as the saviour of the world, me next to Gandhi and Lincoln? I'm guessing they'd grab me and run me to the nearest mental health clinic. And they'd be right to do it. 

He may have claimed to be humble and meek, but his choice of wall art begged to differ. 

Actually, the other one was of ET, not Ghandi. But that's okay. 

Speaking of ET, I wondered if MJ associated that character too much for his plastic surgery obsession. I think Spielberg was on to something when he did that movie. Hell, he did a storybook audio on the movie book. Listening to that would make you question if this dude was weird to begin with. I think his voiceover spoke the truth.

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, Razzberry said:

What do people think of the paintings of himself all over his house?  This one's my favorite -

His last commissioned work with the artist

The portrait with the little kids where the young boy is clutching his hand and looking up at him adoringly is particularly icky in light of what we know about MJ.

[Dorne2.0]

3 hours ago, doodlebug said:

The portrait with the little kids where the young boy is clutching his hand and looking up at him adoringly is particularly icky in light of what we know about MJ.

I know, the girl looks like she could be a daughter or sister, the boy is looking at him with way too much adoration...

Edit to add: I wonder what the artist was thinking and how he described just how he wanted it. Because you can't convince me the boy looking at him like that was the artist's idea and not Michael's. What did the artist think? Also the paint with the naked BOY ANGELS...  Maybe they should look at this artist... 

I can only imagine: 

Michael: "That's good, but make the boy look at me like I'm his God".

Artist: Okay...

Edited April 2, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[AgentRXS]

Well, this video didn't age well at all. Hanging with Brett Ratner singing along to R. Kelly screams "Birds of a feather flock together" LOL

[Dorne2.0]

10 minutes ago, AgentRXS said:

Well, this video didn't age well at all. Hanging with Brett Ratner singing along to R. Kelly screams "Birds of a feather flock together" LOL

Wow! All cut from the same abusive cloth!

Just noticed that at Michael's angels painting there's a fallen angel (or a naked little boy) at Michael feet!!!!!! He seems to be touching his face, is he crying or hiding his face from THE SUN (MJ)? You know like it's too incrible to look at him directly. Michael is almost naked, how can people see this and not KNOW?

Edited April 2, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[Robert Lynch]

Dan Reed admits to getting abuse dates wrong, challenged by MJ biographer

Either way, I don't want those two men attacked with death threats on Twitter or anything thing due to some biographer's account as to what happened that Dan Reed did that was deemed inaccurate. Whatever happened, they deserved to be heard. This is their story.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Robert Lynch

[Melina22]

That is rather a big error. I can see why MJ fans would seize on it. But you always hear how unreliable our memories are, especially for details.

I don't think it changes the big picture though, or the fact that the abuse happened. 

[Robert Lynch]

That's true. But interesting that the MJ biographer went to question about Jame's abuse account rather than Wade's. I guess Wade was there from beginning to end.

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

That is rather a big error. I can see why MJ fans would seize on it. But you always hear how unreliable our memories are, especially for details.

I don't think it changes the big picture though, or the fact that the abuse happened. 

It's a rather big error, but, as you note, memories can be very unreliable.  However, it looks like Michael's biographer wants to use that piece of misinformation to debunk Safechuck's entire story which is ludicrous.  No one is disputing that James Safechuck shared a hotel room with Michael on tour, that Michael gave his parents a house.  We've even seen evidence presented that seemed to confirm Safechuck's story about shopping for a wedding ring with Michael.  If Safechuck was mistaken about a single date or a single place, it doesn't invalidate the rest of his story.  I highly doubt he kept a diary or calendar at the time to keep track of the dates and places where Michael assaulted him. 

[TigerLynx]

I would love to tell the people that are attacking James and Wade that not guilty is not the same as innocent.  Not guilty means there was not enough evidence to return a guilty verdict beyond a reasonable doubt.  Also, adults get dates mixed up all the time.  As people noted, that doesn't change the fact that abuse occurred.

Ick at those pictures.  The one where Jackson is the queen, being crowned king, and knighted tells me a lot about his ego, and it's not saying anything good.

[Neko]

I can't remember dates from five years ago, let alone thirty years ago.  I don't think this "proves" anything.

[Brattinella]

He got the date he STOPPED BEING ABUSED wrong??  THIS is a major mistake???  You gotta be kidding me!  These MJ apologists need to be spanked.

[ruby24]

Also, when in the documentary did James say that he stopped being abused? Wade was the one who said how he old he was and talked about the last encounter, didn't he?

James didn't specifically talk about a particular final encounter, that I recall. 

I mean just because he said the abuse occurred from 10-14 doesn't mean there was never another incident of it.

For example, MJ gave his parents that house and seemed to give James a lot of stuff like camera equipment, telling his parents to pull him out of AP classes, etc. We know he was at Neverland and hanging out with him on the History tour, so there was a time right after the 1993 deposition when MJ was trying to pay him back for testifying by renewing his attentions towards him, at least for a little bit. Maybe something occurred then.

Edited April 2, 2019 by ruby24

[Blakeston]

Also, we know from Wade's testimony that MJ continued to have sex with him after puberty. So it seems entirely believable to me that the abuse continued until James was 16.

[Robert Lynch]

Here's the account of MJ and James Safechuck's relationship

[Razzberry]

Maybe this cult member/biographer should be working on an update to his book, which I'm sure is riveting and not a puff piece. Sounds like he got a lot more wrong than dates. 

[Dorne2.0]

Fans in Brazil, mostly, are defending him, the girl got personal on me saying I must not be a person who likes to read and saying she is sad I'm a lawyer because I said I wouldn't be reading her desperate long texts in defense of him.

There's this website refuting the fans lies with facts: https://mjnotinnocent.blogspot.com/2019/03/facts-dont-lie-mjinnocent.com-people-do.html

Edited April 2, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[Diane Mars]

1 hour ago, Robert Lynch said:

Here's the account of MJ and James Safechuck's relationship

Wow ! Really interesting, because when you read all the stories, and the others stories linked on the website, they overlap so well.... That's... disturbing, at least !

[MilkMachine]

Imagine being the employee tasked with procuring the hotel rooms—and ensuring that the parents’ rooms were increasingly far away from MJ and their sons.

[Kostgard]

9 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Also, when in the documentary did James say that he stopped being abused? Wade was the one who said how he old he was and talked about the last encounter, didn't he?

James didn't specifically talk about a particular final encounter, that I recall. 

I mean just because he said the abuse occurred from 10-14 doesn't mean there was never another incident of it.

For example, MJ gave his parents that house and seemed to give James a lot of stuff like camera equipment, telling his parents to pull him out of AP classes, etc. We know he was at Neverland and hanging out with him on the History tour, so there was a time right after the 1993 deposition when MJ was trying to pay him back for testifying by renewing his attentions towards him, at least for a little bit. Maybe something occurred then.

I think they’ve been quoted as the abuse stopping at 14 for both of them, but no, I don’t think James talked about a final encounter the way Wade did (and even Wade couched it in some fuzziness by saying it was the last sexual contact that he could remember).

And it’s entirely possible that something happened in 1994 or 1995 because we know MJ had renewed/intensified their contact in that period in the wake of James testifying for him. Maybe it was a one-off so he doesn’t consider it part of the “abuse period.” Honestly, I was a little surprised that there was no specific mention of abuse with James during this period. Wade said that for him the abuse started right back up after the first trial. I don’t know why MJ would suddenly start keeping his hands to himself with James. Sure, it could be that at 16 he was too old for MJ, but it seemed like with Wade as he got older (And described himself as more a man than child physically) MJ tried to push things in a new, I guess more “adult” direction (by trying penetration). He certainly could have tried to do the same with James.

Honestly, I’m amazed at how much detail they both remember. Getting some dates from 20+ years ago wrong is not shocking.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Kostgard

[CeeBeeGee]

Newsflash: Victims of longterm sexual abuse that happened 25+ during their childhood years ago sometimes misremember details. SHOCKING.

[Razzberry]

It's not even worth arguing with these people.  They could be shown video evidence and would still deny it.   Calling themselves "truthers" is funny because obviously they can't handle the truth.  I think JACKOFFS, as in Justifying Assaults on Children by Known OFFenders is better.

I didn't know about Sean Lennon though.  Wow that video he made is super creepy!

Bubbles Burst

[izabella]

42 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

I didn't know about Sean Lennon though.  Wow that video he made is super creepy!

Bubbles Burst

That video...wow.

[Blakeston]

Leah Thompson did an interview once where she mentioned that she filmed Space Camp next door to where Michael Jackson was filming Captain Eo.

She talked about Michael inviting a young Joaquin Phoenix (then named Leaf Phoenix) to hang out with him. She made it sound pretty creepy:

Quote

We would kind of climb up in the rafters to watch (Michael). Of course, he wasn’t interested in us. But he did invite Joaquin over—or Leaf at the time—so we would, like, go, “Don’t stay too long! Come back!” [Laughs.] So, yeah, we’d watch him make that, and that was interesting. It was very weird, even back then.

So Michael wasn't interested in the girls (big shock), but it sounds like the girls instinctively knew that Joaquin shouldn't go away with him. So creepy - I hope nothing happened.

[doodlebug]

9 hours ago, Razzberry said:

It's not even worth arguing with these people.  They could be shown video evidence and would still deny it.   Calling themselves "truthers" is funny because obviously they can't handle the truth.  I think JACKOFFS, as in Justifying Assaults on Children by Known OFFenders is better.

I didn't know about Sean Lennon though.  Wow that video he made is super creepy!

Bubbles Burst

Watching that video, it becomes almost impossible to believe Sean's denial that he was abused by MJ and that he knew nothing of any other kids being abused.  Monkeys and bananas?  Bathing together? Michael coming into his bedroom and the monkey cowering in fear while Michael offered him treats?  Escaping the law and the paparazzi by flying off into space just the two of them?The whole thing would be creepy as hell if we didn't already know what we know.  If that video was meant to be a loving tribute to his childhood relationship with Michael, he missed the mark by a mile.

[Dorne2.0]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

Watching that video, it becomes almost impossible to believe Sean's denial that he was abused by MJ and that he knew nothing of any other kids being abused.  Monkeys and bananas?  Bathing together? Michael coming into his bedroom and the monkey cowering in fear while Michael offered him treats?  Escaping the law and the paparazzi by flying off into space just the two of them?The whole thing would be creepy as hell if we didn't already know what we know.  If that video was meant to be a loving tribute to his childhood relationship with Michael, he missed the mark by a mile.

Don't forget the bottle of mild and MJ spilling milk on him own mouth. 

The Boy's allies book sounds like "The Betrayal of Youth" a book with PIE (Pedophile Information Exchange) and NAMBLA ideology, basically.

The police found photos of naked underage boys but that's not considered pornography because they were not engaged in sexual activity.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Dorne2.0

[TigerLynx]

11 hours ago, MilkMachine said:

Imagine being the employee tasked with procuring the hotel rooms—and ensuring that the parents’ rooms were increasingly far away from MJ and their sons.

How could these people not know something was going on?  Even if Michael Jackson wasn't molesting these boys, and I believe he was, how does this in any way shape or form seem normal?

11 hours ago, Razzberry said:

It's not even worth arguing with these people.  They could be shown video evidence and would still deny it.   Calling themselves "truthers" is funny because obviously they can't handle the truth.  I think JACKOFFS, as in Justifying Assaults on Children by Known OFFenders is better.

I didn't know about Sean Lennon though.  Wow that video he made is super creepy!

Bubbles Burst

Yes, there are people who simply won't listen to the facts no matter how much mental gymnastics they have to do to avoid it.

Something that is so maddening in this case and others is the people who go on and on about how this person was a nice guy, so he couldn't possibly be guilty of child abuse.  The two are not mutually exclusive.  Lots of pedophiles, rapists, domestic abusers, etc., hide in plain sight.  It's how they get away with it for years.  There are people who have known serial killers for years, and they had no clue what the killers were doing.  If monsters stood out in a crowd, it would be a lot easier to prosecute them.  Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

[Dorne2.0]

In 1983
In a Texas facility
He was just a few months old when they
Told him he was sold

They flew the primate pet
Upon a private jet
And off to Neverland where he
Met the impish man

Feasting on candy
And dressed like a dandy
Bubbles was treated
Like no other chimpanzee
Transported to a planet made of toys, bananas, and games

Childhoods end
And Bubbles burst

We met in the arcade
Playing video games
We both could not believe it was
Like living in a dream

We didn't understand
Dancing with Peter Pan
What would…be the result when we

Turned into young adults

Feasting on candy

And dressed like a dandy

Bubbles was treated Like no other chimpanzee Transported to a planet

made of toys, bananas, and games

Childhoods end And

Bubbles burst

Edited April 3, 2019 by Dorne2.0