S14.E12: Prophet and Loss

[FlickChick]

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I personally want Dean to end up in the box, mostly for the acting opportunity it gives Jensen.

Chances are that it wouldn't play out that way. Instead, the writers would put Dean in the box and then give the story to Sam, Cas, Jack, Mary, Bobby et.al. to wring their hands over a solution. You know, give the other characters a chance to breathe.

[Wynne88]

I can't think of anything more boring than watching Jensen (or anybody else) try to act their way out of a box.  There are only so many faces and sounds you can make in such a limited environment, and after the tenth repetition, it's going to get old fast.  In addition, if you're locked in a box at the bottom of the sea, it's highly unlikely you're going to rescue yourself, which would bring the ire of many down on the heads of whoever dared pull him out.  Miles vary, obviously.

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, Wynne88 said:

I can't think of anything more boring than watching Jensen (or anybody else) try to act their way out of a box.  There are only so many faces and sounds you can make in such a limited environment, and after the tenth repetition, it's going to get old fast.  In addition, if you're locked in a box at the bottom of the sea, it's highly unlikely you're going to rescue yourself, which would bring the ire of many down on the heads of whoever dared pull him out.  Miles vary, obviously.

I couldn't agree with you more.  The few scenes we had of his dreaming he was in the box were sufficient for me.  I don't want to ever see him, or anyone else for that matter, have to suffer that fate.  There's plenty of opportunity for Jensen to stretch his acting wings just by having Michael inhabiting his head.  

[Myrelle]

At this point in the season, if he went into the box it would be as the season-ending cliffhanger, IMO-in which case, we'd likely never actually see him in the box again and the storyline would become more about how he got out/back and/or if he would be  brought back "changed" or "different" in some way; or owing someone or some entity for saving him or some such thing as thar. That's always how the cliffhangers of this type have been handled on this show.

I think this is what matters the most to some of us

On 2/3/2019 at 7:10 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't want him in the box, I just want a satisfying resolution that doesn't involve shifting his story-line over to someone else, or making him appear weak or feckless. And I couldn't agree more that it is not weakness to fear the kind of fate that awaits him should he go through with his plan - but I don't have any faith in the showrunner/writers to not present it that way.

that the storyline stay centered around Dean and not shifted to another character.

I would be just as happy to see Michael!Dean return with a vengeance because I think it's going to be shifted over to another character regardless of where they take it but that's more suitable for the bitter spoilers and spec thread.

I mean, I doubt that we'll get anything even approaching what they did with Sam after the S5 finale AKA another long myth-arc storyline and role for Dean given to him right on the heels of the archangel possession storyline, but I'm not gonna lie and say that I wouldn't want that because I would-and something to do with Death would be my choice, if I could pick, but again this is probably more of a conversation for the spec thread if anyone wants to continue it there.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Myrelle

[MysteryGuest]

15 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

that the storyline stay centered around Dean and not shifted to another character.

I'm not sure what you mean by this?  Are you concerned that someone else is going to take over the Michael storyline?  I don't see that happening.  But even with the story arc for the season being Dean's possession by Michael, it doesn't mean that the other actors, specifically Jared, aren't going to get equal screen time and action.  This show has two stars, so that's always how it's going to be.  I personally think the show has done a good job throughout its run in giving both brothers interesting things to do, regardless of who the myth arc revolves around for any specific season.  The problem arises if you only really enjoy one character.  Then you're pretty much going to be disappointed or bored by any scenes where your favorite is not on screen.  Add in the shortened shooting schedules for both Jensen and Jared, and the addition of more cast members, and that screen time pie slice gets even smaller.  

[Wynne88]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

The problem arises if you only really enjoy one character. 

Yes.

[AwesomO4000]

27 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I mean, I doubt that we'll get anything even approaching what they did with Sam after the S5 finale AKA another long myth-arc storyline and role for Dean given to him right on the heels of the archangel possession storyline, but I'm not gonna lie and say that I wouldn't want that because I would-and something to do with Death would be my choice, if I could pick, but again this is probably more of a conversation for the spec thread if anyone wants to continue it there.

I'll bite... taken to the spec thread... Actually to the bitter spoilers thread, because I couldn't find the straight spec thread and in case anyone wants to throw spoilers in later or get bitter.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

can't think of anything more boring than watching Jensen (or anybody else) try to act their way out of a box.  There are only so many faces and sounds you can make in such a limited environment, and after the tenth repetition, it's going to get old fast.  In addition, if you're locked in a box at the bottom of the sea, it's highly unlikely you're going to rescue yourself, which would bring the ire of many down on the heads of whoever dared pull him out.  Miles vary, obviously.

I watched the film with Ryan Reynolds where he was buried alive and the film "Locke" with Tom Hardy, which takes place almost entirely in his car.  And yes, I do think Jensen could pull off that level of compelling performance.  I found the opening sequence completely engrossing, terrifying and worrisome, so yes give me at least 40 minutes of that. 

[MysteryGuest]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I watched the film with Ryan Reynolds where he was buried alive and the film "Locke" with Tom Hardy, which takes place almost entirely in his car.  And yes, I do think Jensen could pull off that level of compelling performance.  I found the opening sequence completely engrossing, terrifying and worrisome, so yes give me at least 40 minutes of that. 

Obviously, it's all subjective.  I'm pretty claustrophobic, so anything having to do with being trapped in a small space is torture for me to watch.  I personally couldn't take 40 minutes of the scenes we got at the beginning of last weeks' episode.  I'd have had to turn it off.  I could barely breath as it was.

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Obviously, it's all subjective.  I'm pretty claustrophobic, so anything having to do with being trapped in a small space is torture for me to watch.  I personally couldn't take 40 minutes of the scenes we got at the beginning of last weeks' episode.  I'd have had to turn it off.  I could barely breath as it was.

Oh it is totally claustrophobic and terrifying.  But I'd rather watch that than the gross torture porn shit in this episode as far as the horror aspect goes.

[MysteryGuest]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh it is totally claustrophobic and terrifying.  But I'd rather watch that than the gross torture porn shit in this episode as far as the horror aspect goes.

I could do without the torture, as well.  What ever happened to just being suspenseful and creepy?  Why is that so hard for them to do?  They used to be able to write those episodes.  Now they just go with the gore because it's easy.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Obviously, it's all subjective.  I'm pretty claustrophobic, so anything having to do with being trapped in a small space is torture for me to watch.  I personally couldn't take 40 minutes of the scenes we got at the beginning of last weeks' episode.  I'd have had to turn it off.  I could barely breath as it was.

Agreed*** and there's sometimes a difference for me between good and entertaining. I know, for example, that "Saving Private Ryan" was a great movie, but I didn't find it entertaining in the least and don't ever plan on watching it again. And I know that The Sopranos, Mad Men, and Breaking Bad are supposed to be brilliant television series, but the subject matter of those shows doesn't interest me in the least, so I haven't ever bothered to invest time in watching them.

It wouldn't matter for me how well Jensen acted the scenes (as he did in this episode.) Watching someone in perpetual distress isn't my cup of tea (see below.)

*** Except for the not being able to breath part since I'm not claustrophobic, For me, I can only take so much of people being in pain or being tortured in any way, though. So long scenes of someone in painful distress would lose me pretty quickly... I'd have to change the channel. I can't say that I don't enjoy a good suspense story every now and then, but prolonged pain or panicked suffering - no.

42 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But I'd rather watch that than the gross torture porn shit in this episode as far as the horror aspect goes.

I'd rather not have that either. There's a reason I've never seen "Hostel" or the "Saw" series. But for me it isn't necessarily the gross aspect. Zombies getting dispatched in gross ways didn't bother me at all on The Walking Dead.... squash those gross old zombies in any inventive way you want. The people getting killed however... no, just no. I generally had to turn my head or the channel for a bit until it was over.

So basically it's related and more tied to people in pain and/or distress rather than gore.

Edited February 5, 2019 by AwesomO4000
clarification, and hey, it's what I do...

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

But I'd rather watch that than the gross torture porn shit in this episode as far as the horror aspect goes.

Ugh, I did not like the torture porn either. And that's a good term for it, because it wasn't used for any purpose in the story; each of those scenes lovingly detailed the victim's terror and pain in a way which was totally gratuitous. If it had been Nick killing those people, for example, maybe it would have been showing us the depth of the darkness and evil that was inside of him, even as he tried to deny it. There would at least have been a point to it, made it part of the plot or characterization of the story. But Tony Alvarez, the "malformed" prophet, was not killing those people in order to take sadistic pleasure from it; he thought he was obeying the word of God and bringing everyone salvation, and he was so horrified when he found out this was not true that he killed himself.

So when the camera was watching these peoples' horrible deaths, almost luxuriating in their fear and pain -- it wasn't giving us Tony's point of view. But then whose? It was the show's point of view, I guess, wallowing in the torture as an end in itself, and I think in a sense making the viewer complicit, however unwillingly, as they also watched. Torture porn, being used just for the shock value. That's what made me feel disgusted, I think -- not simply how awful it was, but how gratuitous it was.

[juppschmitz]

8 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

The problem arises if you only really enjoy one character.  Then you're pretty much going to be disappointed or bored by any scenes where your favorite is not on screen.

Yep, that's me. Guilty as charged.

[Bobcatkitten]

I think there is room enough for both Sam and Dean to have compelling storylines. Even Castiel. But when you add in Jack and Mary and Bobby and Nick it gets very limiting and I am not enjoying those as much.

[Pondlass1]

11 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Now they just go with the gore because it's easy.

They used to have a stage-hand spray a bucket of blood against the wall. And that was fine for me.  I don't want to see porn gore either.  It's a crazy world when you can watch raw bloody torture scenes, but if someone says 'shit' it's censored.

[ILoveReading]

I used to watch CSI and there was an episode called Grave  Danger in which on of the CSI's ended up buried alive.  It was so good.  If I was going a top 10 tv episode of all time, I'd add it.  There was a good mix of showing us the person in the grave and what he or she (to avoid spoilers) was going through and the worry and panic of his or her loved ones to find her or him.

It's why i'd say its a great acting opportunity for Jensen.  He does a good job as Dean, I'm not trying to take away from that, but they don't really challenge Jensen to really push himself to see what he's capable of.  He said himself that he can slip in and out of Dean's midset without thinking about it.  That was the thing he found the hardest with Michael.  Being in familiar surrounding and resisting the urge to slip back into playing Dean.  Unfortunately, with the excepetion of one and a half episodes he really hasn't been given a chance to do much with Michael, and he got no help from the show runners.  (I'm not a big fan of Speight, but I'm grateful he was about to help Jensen find Michael's voice).

So Dean buried in a box under the ocean and trying to keep viewers engaged by letting us see Deans' struggle would be a challenge.  Like @catrox14 said, movies like Buried and Locke accomplished this.  Dean has an arch angel in his head, so the scenes of him in the box don't necessarily just have to be him alternating between panic and boredom.   Show us more Dean vs Michael stuff.  Show the audience he's coping by going through his memories by reliving some stuff with Sam or Cas.

We could see a MOTW episode just using this scenario. 

There would be a way to incorporate Dean into the story. 

As for Sam, I wouldn't have a problem if they were searching for a way to save him.  Because they would be doing it without risking the world.  But this time lets see their panic and lets see them actually missing Dean.  One neatly trimmed grief beard didn't work for me.  But that is a topic for a different thread.

Edited February 5, 2019 by ILoveReading

[tessathereaper]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I watched the film with Ryan Reynolds where he was buried alive and the film "Locke" with Tom Hardy, which takes place almost entirely in his car.  And yes, I do think Jensen could pull off that level of compelling performance.  I found the opening sequence completely engrossing, terrifying and worrisome, so yes give me at least 40 minutes of that. 

Same, there have been some great very dramatic stories and performances in such situations.  

 

ETA:  I was going to mention the CSI episode!  :)  I'm pretty sure Grave Danger is considered one of CSI's best ever episodes.  Can't remember the character's name but it was the character played by George Eads who was buried alive.  And with the Michael situation and the show being about the supernatural, it wouldn't just be limited to "the box", because Dean would literally have "company", Michael and all that entails including internal change of scenery scenarios.

Edited February 5, 2019 by tessathereaper

[Aeryn13]

You could easily do hallucinations and convos in the mindscape. Boxed in location-wise doesn't mean the same writing-wise.

[Myrelle]

15 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm not sure what you mean by this?  Are you concerned that someone else is going to take over the Michael storyline?  I don't see that happening.  But even with the story arc for the season being Dean's possession by Michael, it doesn't mean that the other actors, specifically Jared, aren't going to get equal screen time and action.  This show has two stars, so that's always how it's going to be.  I personally think the show has done a good job throughout its run in giving both brothers interesting things to do, regardless of who the myth arc revolves around for any specific season.  The problem arises if you only really enjoy one character.  Then you're pretty much going to be disappointed or bored by any scenes where your favorite is not on screen.  Add in the shortened shooting schedules for both Jensen and Jared, and the addition of more cast members, and that screen time pie slice gets even smaller.  

 

15 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

Yes.

No. Not IMO, anyway,

Taken to the B VS J thread, although it would have probably fit in the  UO thread, too.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Myrelle

[FierceCritter]

On 1/31/2019 at 9:20 PM, tennisgurl said:

The second Nick showed up again, I literally said "oh god, not again" out loud. 

The second he showed up, I heard a dozen PTV SPN regulars say, "Oh God, not again... "

[Cambion]

7 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

You could easily do hallucinations and convos in the mindscape. Boxed in location-wise doesn't mean the same writing-wise.

Exactly!  Also, what if some of the memories were Michael's?  

[tessathereaper]

2 hours ago, Cambion said:

Exactly!  Also, what if some of the memories were Michael's?  

Exactly that could be kind of cool actually. A memory of the war in heaven, a memory of a better time in heaven, etc.  And Dean could still "embody" Michael in the memories.

Edited February 6, 2019 by tessathereaper

[Cambion]

2 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Exactly that could be kind of cool actually. A memory of the war in heaven, a memory of a better time in heaven, etc.  And Dean could still "embody" Michael in the memories.

Yes!  That's just what I spent about 10 minutes trying to say and gave up for lack of words. (Brain's on overload lately, thanks for reading my mind Tessa!) I saw Michael!Dean in my head thinking about this.  Let's face it, only Jensen could give this sort of thing justice.  I would love to see some of that.  How did Michael get so powerful on the AU Earth and win there?  What really made him turn against Chuck?  He only said that knowing what Dean knows about Chuck let him know about the discarded drafts.  Michael was already mad at Chuck and it seemed more than the "Dad abandoned us!" trope.  Or, well, could be.  Sigh.  Maybe we'll get some fanfic at least.  

[Myrelle]

23 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

You could easily do hallucinations and convos in the mindscape. Boxed in location-wise doesn't mean the same writing-wise.

 

13 hours ago, Cambion said:

Exactly!  Also, what if some of the memories were Michael's?  

 

10 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Exactly that could be kind of cool actually. A memory of the war in heaven, a memory of a better time in heaven, etc.  And Dean could still "embody" Michael in the memories.

 

8 hours ago, Cambion said:

Yes!  That's just what I spent about 10 minutes trying to say and gave up for lack of words. (Brain's on overload lately, thanks for reading my mind Tessa!) I saw Michael!Dean in my head thinking about this.  Let's face it, only Jensen could give this sort of thing justice.  I would love to see some of that.  How did Michael get so powerful on the AU Earth and win there?  What really made him turn against Chuck?  He only said that knowing what Dean knows about Chuck let him know about the discarded drafts.  Michael was already mad at Chuck and it seemed more than the "Dad abandoned us!" trope.  Or, well, could be.  Sigh.  Maybe we'll get some fanfic at least.  

This all sounds So. Amazing! If only...

And I'd heard that that one CSI episode was great viewing also. I'm not a regular viewer of that show, but I remember reading about it. It was even a two-part episode(or even more?), wasn't it?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

And I'd heard that that one CSI episode was great viewing also. I'm not a regular viewer of that show, but I remember reading about it. It was even a two-part episode(or even more?), wasn't it?

It was a big event. They marketed it a year before it aired because Tarantino directed it. 

Now since they already did Dean in the box in panic as a nightmare for the teaser of this episode, obviously the show would have to do something else if they did it for real.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

It was a big event. They marketed it a year before it aired because Tarantino directed it.

I didn't watch it, because I tried CSI (I liked Marge Heidelberger from China Beach) and it didn't stick, and because it was a bit of a redo (in my opinion) of the "Digger"*** episodes of Crossing Jordan from about 3 or 4 years earlier, but it could be that I missed something in not doing so.

*** Digger was a serial killer who liked to bury his victims alive with a walkie-talkie type apparatus in the coffin with them, (he was recording also) so that he could listen to them die. It was pretty creepy, and a pretty involved mystery.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Now since they already did Dean in the box in panic as a nightmare for the teaser of this episode, obviously the show would have to do something else if they did it for real.

Agreed. They probably should have shown it more from Dean's point of view in the dream... though I guess then we would have known that it was a dream.

I guess they could show it just from the outside of the box and we could muffled hear it as it went down, getting quieter and more muffled... but that wouldn't be ideal, because Dean would likely try to stay brave and quiet until it got down a bit. I guess just some muffled banging would be creepy though.

[Cambion]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I didn't watch it, because I tried CSI (I liked Marge Heidelberger from China Beach) and it didn't stick, and because it was a bit of a redo (in my opinion) of the "Digger"*** episodes of Crossing Jordan from about 3 or 4 years earlier, but it could be that I missed something in not doing so.

*** Digger was a serial killer who liked to bury his victims alive with a walkie-talkie type apparatus in the coffin with them, (he was recording also) so that he could listen to them die. It was pretty creepy, and a pretty involved mystery.

 

 

Ugh, I remember that....*shudder*

[millennium]

Probably a UO, but Dean seemed just a little too into the idea of self-sacrifice.   Reminded me of people with guilt or shame issues who feel they need to be punished -- and here comes a golden opportunity to accomplish that under color of a noble cause.   It's no secret Dean has some deep-seated psychological issues, borderline/functioning alcoholic, etc.   

I liked that Sam smacked him in the head.   I think Dean needed it to pull his gaze away from his own belly-button.    There's been way too much Sam and Dean sacrifice in this show, from the dueling demonic possessions, to the family group-rate visits to the cage.   I prefer to see them fighting back than embarking on the somber, maudlin "last hurrah of the Winchester brothers" that Dean had in mind.   

ETA:  Does Mark Pellegrino have blackmail material on the showrunners?  When will his run in this show end?   

Edited February 27, 2019 by millennium

[ahrtee]

49 minutes ago, millennium said:

Probably a UO, but Dean seemed just a little too into the idea of self-sacrifice.   Reminded me of people with guilt or shame issues who feel they need to be punished -- and here comes a golden opportunity to accomplish that under color of a noble cause.   It's no secret Dean has some deep-seated psychological issues, borderline/functioning alcoholic, etc.   

I liked that Sam smacked him in the head.   I think Dean needed it to pull his gaze away from his own belly-button.    There's been way too much Sam and Dean sacrifice in this show, from the dueling demonic possessions, to the family group-rate visits to the cage.   I prefer to see them fighting back than embarking on the somber, maudlin "last hurrah of the Winchester brothers" that Dean had in mind.   

ETA:  Does Mark Pellegrino have blackmail material on the showrunners?  When will his run in this show end?   

IA that there's way too much self-sacrifice in the show, but I put the blame on the writers who seem to love to write the characters into a corner where sacrifice is the only option, and then pull some miracle out of their asses to show that they're wrong.  

For once, I'd like a sacrifice to actually *mean* something and not be negated later (or shown to be self-indulgent because hey, "there's always another way."  I hate the "smack in the head/you can't give up" trope, because sometimes sacrifice actually *is* the only answer, if they could make it meaningful and not just that the character is suicidal or too weak to fight.  

[BabySpinach]

46 minutes ago, millennium said:

Probably a UO, but Dean seemed just a little too into the idea of self-sacrifice.   Reminded me of people with guilt or shame issues who feel they need to be punished -- and here comes a golden opportunity to accomplish that under color of a noble cause.   It's no secret Dean has some deep-seated psychological issues, borderline/functioning alcoholic, etc.   

I liked that Sam smacked him in the head.   I think Dean needed it to pull his gaze away from his own belly-button.    There's been way too much Sam and Dean sacrifice in this show, from the dueling demonic possessions, to the family group-rate visits to the cage.   I prefer to see them fighting back than embarking on the somber, maudlin "last hurrah of the Winchester brothers" that Dean had in mind.     

I disagree completely. Dean (and his dream) made it explicitly clear in this episode that he was terrified and really didn't want to go through with it, but was willing to do it anyway for the sake of the world. Seems like a pretty uncharitable interpretation of his character to imply that he's just using the box plan as an excuse to off himself. 

Dean wasn't navel-gazing, he was doing the exact opposite. Every time either Sam or Cas tried to guilt trip him or invalidate him or call him suicidal, he stood his ground and explained his very simple logic in small words (though it never did seem to penetrate their thick skulls). Not once did he devolve into self-pity or angst, but he did stick to his guns, which appears to have come across as navel-gazing?

It's like he just can't win. Even when he's willing to submit himself to an eternity with a furious archangel so that the multiverse doesn't come crumbling down, he still deserves to be smacked for daring to hurt Cas and Sam's feelings by leaving them. Poor, dumb Dean. It's not like the universe is at stake or anything! It's totally worth risking it all just to adhere to their usual modus operandi of flipping the bird at fate for the sake of... what? Consistency? Ego? Self-satisfaction?

Sam and Dean's decision to fight fate in season 5 made sense because the "fated" outcome was the worst possible one (or second worst), so they could really only go up from there. This season 14 decision to fight fate is less honorable because they already have a zero-collateral solution right in front of them, and Sam and Cas are hell-bent against this objectively solid option because they don't want to lose one particular man and are willing to possibly damn everyone else as a result.  

I really don't mind that they're postponing a while to look for other options, but Dean was NOT in the wrong here for going ahead with the plan and (initially) standing his ground against Sam and Cas. 

[millennium]

23 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

IA that there's way too much self-sacrifice in the show, but I put the blame on the writers who seem to love to write the characters into a corner where sacrifice is the only option, and then pull some miracle out of their asses to show that they're wrong.  

For once, I'd like a sacrifice to actually *mean* something and not be negated later (or shown to be self-indulgent because hey, "there's always another way."  I hate the "smack in the head/you can't give up" trope, because sometimes sacrifice actually *is* the only answer, if they could make it meaningful and not just that the character is suicidal or too weak to fight.  

The thing is, there have been so many it's-always-darkest-before-the-dawn moments on this show where Sam and Dean do find a way out of trouble that there now exists a formidable body of evidence to argue against Dean's pessimism and for the Winchester's resourcefulness and the possibility that a way to exorcise Michael will be found.   In succumbing to Billie's pronouncement that only ONE option exists, Dean is turning his back on his own history of success.   And to be honest, I don't altogether trust Billie to be a reliable authority in this matter.  The reapers have been jonesing for the Winchesters for a long time.  

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, millennium said:

The thing is, there have been so many it's-always-darkest-before-the-dawn moments on this show where Sam and Dean do find a way out of trouble that there now exists a formidable body of evidence to argue against Dean's pessimism and for the Winchester's resourcefulness and the possibility that a way to exorcise Michael will be found.   In succumbing to Billie's pronouncement that only ONE option exists, Dean is turning his back on his own history of success.   And to be honest, I don't altogether trust Billie to be a reliable authority in this matter.  The reapers have been jonesing for the Winchesters for a long time.  

And that's actually my problem with the whole situation.   There's no drama if you know they'll always come up with a solution,  so there's no point in writing these dire and supposedly heartrending scenes when you know it won't happen.   And it does make the heroes look like fools, quitters or suicidal when they make what would otherwise in real life be a logical, difficult and normally a heroic decision.   

They've cried wolf  one too many times here. 

I'm not saying I want Dean to go into the box.  I just want him to be heroic and not self indulgent.

[millennium]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

There's no drama if you know they'll always come up with a solution,  so there's no point in writing these dire and supposedly heartrending scenes when you know it won't happen.   

By the same token, there's no point in writing these self-sacrifice scenes because you know the writers aren't going to take Dean off the board permanently.   Even if he does go in the box for a time, so what?  Big deal.  He'll be back.   So what's the point of just going through the motions?   They've done this storyline so many times it's running on the rims.

[Aeryn13]

3 hours ago, millennium said:

By the same token, there's no point in writing these self-sacrifice scenes because you know the writers aren't going to take Dean off the board permanently.   Even if he does go in the box for a time, so what?  Big deal.  He'll be back.   So what's the point of just going through the motions?   They've done this storyline so many times it's running on the rims.

Well, if he went into the box, of course he wouldn't stay but you could tell a story in how it affected him later. So doing it would at least have a point compared to just not doing anything with it and going for some lame 11th hour save.

[ILoveReading]

This is why I hated this episode because of the way Sam and Cas tried to brand Dean as being weak and a quitter.   

All season long Deans' been content with his life and happy to have less responsibilities so why all of a sudden would be eager to jump into a coffin with an arch angel.  

Spoiler

Then the very next episode Dean is back to being content with his life and not wanting to change anything.   So which is it show?

Cas and Sam are witness to that so them thinking that Dean is being self destructive shows how little they actually see Dean.  Or even really listen to what he says.

I thought Cas came across as a massive hypocrite considering he threw away his life for Jack and lied about it.

Sam once again demonstrated how self centered he is.  Its always about Sam and his feelings.  Did he even consider how this was effecting Dean.  Nope it was all just Dean hurting poor little Sam's feelings.  How selfish can he be?   Not to mention his reasoning was stupid.  "Dean don't attempt to save the world, because we're the guys that save the world."

I don;t see it as "word vomit" from Sam because its his goto whenever Dean wants to do something.  (The trials, saying yes to Michael, Purgatory, and any time he loses his filter).  At this point its comes across as that is how Sam really sees his brother.  It's why I just roll my eyes now whenever Sam says he looks up to Dean.  It's become more Sam's way to control Dean.  At this point he's no better than John who treats Dean as a blunt instrument. 

Dean knows how close Michael is to getting out and how hard it is to hold Michael back.  They would have no time to get Dean in the box.  

Why would death lie?  There is really no motivation for Billie to make it up just to bag a Winchester.  Because she wouldn't even actually get one as Michael could keep Dean alive indefinitely. 

Death usually looks at the bigger picture.   IMO that was exactly what she was doing here.  From the way I read the scene with Billie it wasn't just Dean's books that changed but the entire worlds. 

*This post is not meant to be in a bitch/jerk context, just explaining how I saw the scene as the episode presented it.

Edited February 27, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Pondlass1]

6 hours ago, millennium said:

They've done this storyline so many times it's running on the rims.

Ain't that the truth!

What is it that president said?  Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

They keep putting the same perilous plot before us to build suspense, but nothing ever happens and never any consequences.  

Give us something original and fresh, Andrew!   We've done the sacrifice thing one too many times.

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, if he went into the box, of course he wouldn't stay but you could tell a story in how it affected him later. So doing it would at least have a point compared to just not doing anything with it and going for some lame 11th hour save.

This. So much this.

They keep saying that they're going for more "character-driven" storylines so, IMO, this would be a much better way of backing that statement up than just equating OTT and nothing but maudlin emo and tears within yet more and still utterly redundant type of scenes.

That nightmare Dean had was one of the most disturbing depictions that I've ever seen on this show. 

They should run with that type of a thing, and all the stuff that created all that scar-tissue inside Dean's head, and what makes Sam say things like Dean "thrives on trauma" if they really want to  say that their storylines are more character-driven at this point.  

[gonzosgirrl]

An exchange from SPNNASH on the filming of the end scene (read from bottom up)

Edited March 10, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

An exchange from SPNNASH on the filming of the end scene (read from bottom up)

That's really interesting. I really want to know what specifically threw Jared off about this scene.  Sam dressing down Dean is not uncommon.  Hmm. curious.

[rue721]

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

An exchange from SPNNASH on the filming of the end scene (read from bottom up)

Really interesting that Jared was so effected. Is this the very last scene in the episode that they're talking about? I'd like to rewatch it real quick with this in mind.

ETA:  I can never understand the difference between affect and effect, despite having looked it up at least a dozen times. So maybe Jared was affected after all? Still have no idea and am basically just randomly guessing. LOL apologies for my ignorance.

Edited March 10, 2019 by rue721

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

So maybe Jared was affected after all?

Yes he was. That is the correct usage. Affect: to impress the mind or move the feelings; to act on or move.

[rue721]

5 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Yes he was. That is the correct usage. Affect: to impress the mind or move the feelings; to act on or move.

Dammit! hahahaha

[auntvi]

On 3/10/2019 at 4:37 PM, rue721 said:

ETA:  I can never understand the difference between affect and effect

My rule of thumb is that usually**, "effect" is a noun and "affect" is a verb.

** Psychologists use "affect" as a noun to describe a person's feeling or emotion.

[ahrtee]

11 minutes ago, auntvi said:

My rule of thumb is that usually**, "effect" is a noun and "affect" is a verb.

** Psychologists use "affect" as a noun to describe a person's feeling or emotion.

**and it's proper to use "effect" as a verb in "effecting a change."

Edited March 14, 2019 by ahrtee

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, auntvi said:

My rule of thumb is that usually**, "effect" is a noun and "affect" is a verb.

** Psychologists use "affect" as a noun to describe a person's feeling or emotion.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

**and it's proper to use "effect" as a verb in "effecting a change."

And this is why the English language should not have a "rule of thumb". LOL

[ahrtee]

29 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

And this is why the English language should not have a "rule of thumb". LOL

Well, everyone has two thumbs. 😊  There will always be exceptions.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Well, everyone has two thumbs. 😊  There will always be exceptions.

Except for someone who lost their thumb like my friend did... 😉

[ahrtee]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except for someone who lost their thumb like my friend did... 😉

Moving reply to fanfic thread

[catrox14]

15 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Moving reply to fanfic thread 

FTR, I wasn't joking. She lost her thumb during a motorcycle collision.