S02.E05: All the World Is Birthday Cake

[Chicago Redshirt]

9 hours ago, Dobian said:

Human nature doesn't change, that's why it's called "nature".

I explained it.  You operate under the assumption that people won't have to work and everything will be taken care of in this future nanny state utopia.  But it's fantasy.  Many people will still need to work but for different reasons, and there will still be powerful interests that run things and have power and influence over people's lives, even in a society without money.

One person's view of human "nature" is not going to be necessarily the same as another's. That is why there are radically different philsophical approaches to that issue. Much of what has been assumed to be the "nature" of humans or subsets of humans has turned out to be false assumptions and compilations of socially constructed stereotypes about them, not unlike the Regorians assumptions of what the nature of Gilliacs and other signs are. Women are frail and hysterical, blacks are savages, Asians are devious, etc etc. 

The main difference is that it is easier for us to accept that the Regorians are wrong since a) astrology is pseudoscience at best and b) the way SMF set up this episode, they seemingly don't even have anecdotal evidence of Gilliacs are any more violent than anyone else. 

On the economics front, the Orville and Star Trek have set up systems where no one "needs" to work. Every Union/Federation citizen gets food, shelter, medical care because they have it in abundance. Is that a fantasy? Sure. Are there roles in society that still need people? Sure, presumably. But does any given person "need" to do those roles to survive? No. They may want to do them for any number of reasons -- the challenge behind them, a sense of social indebtedness, alleviating boredom, professional pride etc. That to me is a marked difference between reality, where there is an actual obligation to work for money for most of us. 

[Dobian]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

One person's view of human "nature" is not going to be necessarily the same as another's. That is why there are radically different philsophical approaches to that issue. Much of what has been assumed to be the "nature" of humans or subsets of humans has turned out to be false assumptions and compilations of socially constructed stereotypes about them, not unlike the Regorians assumptions of what the nature of Gilliacs and other signs are. Women are frail and hysterical, blacks are savages, Asians are devious, etc etc. 

The main difference is that it is easier for us to accept that the Regorians are wrong since a) astrology is pseudoscience at best and b) the way SMF set up this episode, they seemingly don't even have anecdotal evidence of Gilliacs are any more violent than anyone else. 

On the economics front, the Orville and Star Trek have set up systems where no one "needs" to work. Every Union/Federation citizen gets food, shelter, medical care because they have it in abundance. Is that a fantasy? Sure. Are there roles in society that still need people? Sure, presumably. But does any given person "need" to do those roles to survive? No. They may want to do them for any number of reasons -- the challenge behind them, a sense of social indebtedness, alleviating boredom, professional pride etc. That to me is a marked difference between reality, where there is an actual obligation to work for money for most of us. 

The primary aspects of human behavior are universal and cross every region, culture, race, class, gender, religion, whatever.  You have the seven virtues and the seven deadly sins.  Sure there are other ways you can categorize them, but we all have them.  We are all capable of good and bad and that doesn't change just because we have everything we want and there's no need to start a war anymore.  We've advanced exponentially as a civilization the last ten thousand years, but we still behave just as badly as people did ten thousand years ago, maybe worse in some ways.

Example.  Ed is actually a total A-Hole of a captain.  Gordon is constantly put down, overworked, and abused.  He's reached his limit but he puts up with it because his career is everything to him, he wants to be a great starship pilot on an A-Lister ship.  If he complains, he could get transferred to a freighter at the other end of the galaxy.  No money is involved.  The dynamics are the same.  These situations can and will happen in a world where people don't need money to live.  You are right to call the overabundant future fantasy, but this is supposed to be science fiction not fantasy, and I'd like to see a more realistic exploration of this.  It's a minor quibble, really, we discuss this point a lot but it's not it's a deal breaker for me with the show or anything.

[ketose]

The irony is that Captain Ed Mercer is a result of supply and demand, just without the money. The Union is having trouble getting crews for ships. I would assume since no one has to work, they can only offer "reputation" which people are going to pass on because sitting around watching TV and getting free everything is a sweet deal. Therefore, captains are in low supply and Ed being a barely competent captain was good enough because of the high demand. Same thing for Gordon, who is a good pilot, but has discipline problems.

[ganesh]

Ed had a high reputation and was on fast track for a high rank before he fell apart. Saying he's barely competent is a little much. His self imposed exile is what caused him to fade. 

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

Ed had a high reputation and was on fast track for a high rank before he fell apart. Saying he's barely competent is a little much. His self imposed exile is what caused him to fade. 

And remember that Kelly was the one who recommended him as Captain of the Orville because she believed that he still had it in him to get back on that fast track and regain his high reputation.  That says a lot about what she saw in him as a leader, just as she saw potential in John to be the Chief of Engineering.  Kelly is very adept at reading people. I think that's one of the reasons that she's so effective as a Commander.  She can see things about the people she interacts with that even they can't see about themselves.

[ketose]

8 hours ago, ganesh said:

Ed had a high reputation and was on fast track for a high rank before he fell apart. Saying he's barely competent is a little much. His self imposed exile is what caused him to fade. 

The operative word being was. Obviously, Mercer's competence is quite high now, but my argument was about supply and demand, not about Ed proving himself after being drunk and unprepared in the year before he got command.

[Machiabelly]

On 2019-01-27 at 1:25 AM, Jacks-Son said:

 Let's place ourselves in a similar situation:  You travel to a new country, you've never been there before, nor have they ever seen anyone like you before.  They accept that you're new and unfamiliar with their culture.  They're eager to show you their country and advancements.  You're in awe of their similarity to your own culture and country.  You make an innocent remark in idle chit-chat and suddenly you're deemed. a dangerous criminal, arrested, and thrown into a prison.  In no way, does this make any sense.  My country, when trying to extract me, after they were told it's impossible, my country says, "We don't want to start an incident, so we'll just have to let it pass".  Again, "In no way, does this make any sense".  

Not quite as severe...but going to Singapore and enjoying myself with friendly people and then get sent to jail for chewing gum and my government telling me I have to do my time...has happened.

[ketose]

3 hours ago, Machiabelly said:

Not quite as severe...but going to Singapore and enjoying myself with friendly people and then get sent to jail for chewing gum and my government telling me I have to do my time...has happened.

Or North Korea, which was as severe.

[chaifan]

12 hours ago, Machiabelly said:

Not quite as severe...but going to Singapore and enjoying myself with friendly people and then get sent to jail for chewing gum and my government telling me I have to do my time...has happened.

I have to ask... what was the sentence for chewing gum? 

[italianguy626]

22 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I have to ask... what was the sentence for chewing gum? 

Fines and imprisonment.

[Machiabelly]

FYI that didn't happen to me...I was using it as a possible example 

[Ilovepie]

On 1/26/2019 at 9:57 AM, chaifan said:

I was surprised by how little attention Bortus got. 

Yes, this bugged me too (along with other things). They seemed pretty underwhelmed by their first contact with aliens, aside from the new security officer's show of strength. They also seemed kind of cocky about their tech despite seeing people fly in from other planets from outer space. I would think you would assume the aliens have superior technology, but no, they were like come look at our awesome hospital! Look what we can do!

I think what Kelly and Bortus did was awful and I can't believe they were just let go. It seems like a diplomacy nightmare. I hope they revisit this planet and show how the Gilliacs are assimilating (or not) into society. It would be great if they did a refugee mission to help them.

[ketose]

1 hour ago, Ilovepie said:

Yes, this bugged me too (along with other things). They seemed pretty underwhelmed by their first contact with aliens, aside from the new security officer's show of strength. They also seemed kind of cocky about their tech despite seeing people fly in from other planets from outer space. I would think you would assume the aliens have superior technology, but no, they were like come look at our awesome hospital! Look what we can do!

I think what Kelly and Bortus did was awful and I can't believe they were just let go. It seems like a diplomacy nightmare. I hope they revisit this planet and show how the Gilliacs are assimilating (or not) into society. It would be great if they did a refugee mission to help them.

I'm thinking either/and:

The planet does not use capital punishment

Astrology is a valid legal defense, like insanity on Earth.

[Ilovepie]

1 hour ago, ketose said:

The planet does not use capital punishment

Weren’t they trying to hang Kelly and Bortus after they were recaptured?

[HouseofBeck]

I totally got hung up on that couple having a baby in captivity. It didn't make sense even on that twisted planet. If I were in captivity, and also was thoroughly brainwashed to believe that I am evil evil evil, I would not be having a damn baby! Especially one intended to be born under a bad sign. Arrgh!

At first, Jessica Szohr sounded like she had a permanent case of vocal fry, but perhaps anyone following Alara would have been found wanting. As it was, I found myself quickly turning around on Jessica before the ep was halfway through. Damn fine actress.

I love Bortus. And I was so hoping none of Kelly's ribs were broken, yeesh (they didn't seem to be). 

This episode was lacking in the usual balance of humor and serious topics, but I think I get the parallels they were drawing with our society even as it was a very uneven show. Or perhaps that's the point.

Edited February 2, 2019 by HouseofBeck

[shapeshifter]

1 minute ago, HouseofBeck said:

Mind you, I also did think of a friend who particularly likes to hold her star sign accountable for her actions, not herself. :)

I hope your friend is really just admitting in her own way  that she wishes she could do better. 
Hmmm. I wonder if that idea could be applied to the planet's belief system, and if it is a parallel of many on ours.

[Raja]

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I hope your friend is really just admitting in her own way  that she wishes she could do better. 
Hmmm. I wonder if that idea could be applied to the planet's belief system, and if it is a parallel of many on ours.

The thing about this planet, along with many one off's in the Trek or Orville universe is that a single belief system and/or government system has won. Until the aliens from Sol 3 show up  there is no alternative and a fundamental reading becomes the norm. Be it the Krill's religion, which is seeing cracks now with follow up visits, to the astrology planet.

[Ceindreadh]

On 1/2/2019 at 12:44 AM, Machiabelly said:

Not quite as severe...but going to Singapore and enjoying myself with friendly people and then get sent to jail for chewing gum and my government telling me I have to do my time...has happened.

Not really the same thing though. Singapore has a specific law against chewing gum and if somebody breaks it they get prosecuted. 

Kelly and Bortus were criminalized simply for existing and through no actions of their own. 

[Driad]

About it being "bad" to be born at certain times -- IIRC, in China at some time a girl born in the year of the horse was considered unfortunate in some way, so the birth rate was lower during that year.

[Machiabelly]

There is a law against them being where they were with the birthdate they had. They broke that law. 

[morakot]

On ‎1‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 5:14 AM, Chyromaniac said:

I thought it was weird that both Finn and the alien doc kept referring to what was happening at the hospital as “c-section,” given its etymology. I actually paused the show to look it up, and apparently there basically is no other way to describe that procedure- so I guess the translator tech gets a pass on that one.

Would you prefer Shakespeare's 

"...from his mother's womb
Untimely ripp'd."?

[shapeshifter]

15 minutes ago, morakot said:

Would you prefer Shakespeare's 

"...from his mother's womb
Untimely ripp'd."?

That actually would fit with what went on in the episode.

[ketose]

Also interesting that the day of delivery is important, even if some parents have to cheat by having the baby induced. And again, somehow the tooth test can determine this.

[morakot]

There are mothers in Asia who schedule caesarian deliveries on lucky days so this is not unheard of.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, morakot said:

There are mothers in Asia who schedule caesarian deliveries on lucky days so this is not unheard of.

And there are doctors and patients in the U.S. (and likely elsewhere) who schedule C-sections for convenience regarding vacations, etc., and certainly a few to have the birthday land on (or not on) the same day as someone else's, on the first day of spring, or  in a particular astrological sign.
Both these Eastern and Western practices might have inspired some of the plot points for the episode.

ETA: One of many articles on births rates in China not increasing substantially in "lucky" years: http://www.ecns.cn/news/society/2019-01-30/detail-ifzeerre7963917.shtml

Even though the rates were not as high as expected for the year of the Dragon, the fact that there are studies like this shows it's something people (including the writers of this show) think about.

Edited February 5, 2019 by shapeshifter

[lucindabelle]

I agree with the “wow the air is breathable and the gravity is the same and everyone speaks English observation.” I mean seriously. We just saw alayas planet so we know for a fact this isn’t the norm...

but more than that

IF YOU DONT KNOW OF LIFE ON OTHER PLANETS WHT DO YOU REFER TO YOUR COUNTRY AS A PLANWR?

earth is a planet and look how many different languages and cultures and customs we have. There are at most two cultures per planet in the whole rest of the galaxy.

i mean, we have more than that in New Jersey.

[Ceindreadh]

1 hour ago, lucindabelle said:

I agree with the “wow the air is breathable and the gravity is the same and everyone speaks English observation.” I mean seriously. We just saw alayas planet so we know for a fact this isn’t the norm...

but more than that

IF YOU DONT KNOW OF LIFE ON OTHER PLANETS WHT DO YOU REFER TO YOUR COUNTRY AS A PLANWR?

earth is a planet and look how many different languages and cultures and customs we have. There are at most two cultures per planet in the whole rest of the galaxy.

i mean, we have more than that in New Jersey.

I presumed it was a universal translator that translated their word for their home world to the English word planet. Much like it translated their medical terminology to the word ‘c-section’ because that was the equivalent term. 

I don’t know if you’ve ever read the Sector General series by James White. It’s a sci-Fic series set in a hospital that caters to a multitude of different life forms. They make heavy use of translator systems and nearly every book has a reference to how when an alien is asked what their species is, the translator always translates their reply to ‘human’.  So to combat that they have a detailed classification system with letters designating whether they’re air breathers, water breathers, warn blooded, cold blooded etc. 

[lucindabelle]

But again disregarding translation.

if you don’t interact with other planets you wouldn’t call your society a planet.

the monoculture thing is also silly. Surely there too there could be the equivalent of western and Asian cultures that speak and dress differently. 

[ganesh]

I did note that it was odd that the 'pre-warp' society was a monoculture. Except for Babylon 5, it's been a standard trope in scifi for a while. 

[Greybeard]

On 1/25/2019 at 4:06 PM, ajsnaves said:

I noticed that apparently they get their baby blankets from the same place every other hospital in North America does.  Those ubiquitous white with blue and pink stripes.

I noticed that too! I'm sure it was yet another joke. And an excellent, subtle one.

[The Companion]

Late to the game, but I agree with the criticisms here. I don't take this show as seriously, so it didn't bug me too much. That being said, Ed's strategy made no sense. You go in with your strongest arguments. You say it is a phenomenon that hasn't been observed by your scientists on other planets but you will send some people for a scientific exchange and in the meantime, you will remove the potential alien risks from their planet. And, honestly, you don't do anything to address their own people, because you don't actually know (particularly Ed who hasn't been to the camps). Just because their explanation makes no sense, doesn't actually mean it is untrue. Suppose there is some environmental factor that affects babies born at that time (e.g., babies under x days old exposed to a particular pollen have some sort of physiological change). It could be a timing thing that correlates with that particular birth month. If not, extended exposure to other cultures will probably destroy the belief more effectively. 

Despite the plot holes, this show is still enjoyable and that makes up for a lot with me. 

[legaleagle53]

On 4/14/2019 at 7:57 AM, The Companion said:

Late to the game, but I agree with the criticisms here. I don't take this show as seriously, so it didn't bug me too much. That being said, Ed's strategy made no sense. You go in with your strongest arguments. You say it is a phenomenon that hasn't been observed by your scientists on other planets but you will send some people for a scientific exchange and in the meantime, you will remove the potential alien risks from their planet. And, honestly, you don't do anything to address their own people, because you don't actually know (particularly Ed who hasn't been to the camps). Just because their explanation makes no sense, doesn't actually mean it is untrue. Suppose there is some environmental factor that affects babies born at that time (e.g., babies under x days old exposed to a particular pollen have some sort of physiological change). It could be a timing thing that correlates with that particular birth month. 

The logical flaw in your argument is that correlation does not equal causation. Their entire belief is that astrology is real and that the stars really do play not just a significant role, but the ONLY role, in determining one's characteristics and destiny at birth. They would dismiss your theory of an environmental x factor as the real cause of the Gilliacs' supposedly immutable ultraviolent tendencies out-of-hand as irrelevant, if not downright heretical, and they'd put YOU away as a Gilliac sympathizer and a troublemaker.

Edited April 18, 2019 by legaleagle53

[markx]

On 1/25/2019 at 2:41 PM, shrewd.buddha said:

• Why would Bortus, born on different planet in a different solar system, be marking his birthday on a calendar system from Earth? Surely his planet would not also have anniversaries every 365.4 days.

One handwave might be that Bortus does measure his birthday by a different year length, but it just happens that this year their birthdays coincided (I may have missed it, but it seems ambiguous as to whether their birthdays were always shared).

But this is a flaw for them being labelled Gilliacs - just because their birthdays now were during the bad sign, doesn't mean they would have been born during that sign, due to using a different length of year. I can see that the planet's authorities would have refused to accept that explanation given how irrational they were, but it would have been nice to see that argument tried.

On another note, the artificial star surely seemed too close to the planet, to have the same apparent position (compared to background stars) for all viewpoints on the planet. It was also noted that they had satellites in orbit to observe the stars' positions, so surely that would spot the issue straight away.

Edited December 5, 2019 by markx

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 1/25/2019 at 8:59 AM, Ottis said:

A couple." Heh.  Virtually every Orville ep has so many plot holes that you can drive the Orville through them. It's one of the frustrating things about this show. It is *this close* to actually being pretty damn good, and it can't quite get there. Based on how serious season 2 is vs. season 1, it seems like Seth wants this to be ST. But the writers don't make good enough connections.

All those gaping plot holes do take me out of the stories, to a point, but having binged last season, then having gotten as far as this episode over the past few days, I have come to the conclusion that they are, in a way, part of the charm. They give the show a certain innocence which seems to be lost in today's entertainment and, to me, heightens the retro feel.

For each instance of being taken out of the story, whether by plot holes, toss-off lines which feel as though they should be coming out of a cartoon character, or even Seth's limits as an actor (because, so often, he just looks as though there is a twinkle in his eye that just says he is just getting such a kick out of getting to be a starship captain and have such a huge cosplay set for his amusement)...it all adds up to a sort of fuzzy feel-good aura for that moment, and you forgive the interruption in narrative. Then the whole thing mostly just manages to add up to an enjoyable episode complete with moments of actual depth and feeling. 

It's really hard to explain, but so far I am enjoying this more than I ever enjoyed any of the other Star Trek incarnations beyond the original series. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 1/26/2019 at 2:01 PM, shapeshifter said:

I had to pretend (and hope the prop really was) chocolate Jell-O Whip 'n Chill.

I read this as Jell-O Whip 'n Chili, probably because I thought the glop looked as though it contained some black beans. Then I legit had to follow the link to make sure that wasn't an actual thing! Sometimes my mind goes in terribly gullible directions.

[Sandman]

On 1/26/2019 at 3:28 PM, Latverian Diplomat said:

For that matter, I'm never sure why the magic universal translator doesn't translate what they're saying to "Welcome to earth" or "Welcome to the ground". That would probably be the literal translation. Maybe there is special "code" to override that literal a translation. 

I’d like to think that future translation technology will develop some sophisticated context-recognition subroutines, or something. There is folklore suggesting my own country got its present name because some people originally living here greeted some early European visitors with the equivalent of “Welcome to [our village],” only the translator interpreted it as “Welcome to [Name of Country]!”

Or, to put it another way:

Confused Extraterrestrial Person: “Wait, dude — you named your planet ‘Dirt’?”

Edited June 10, 2022 by Sandman