Manhattan - General Discussion

[Clanstarling]

I absolutely hate the Abby-as-Nancy-Drew plot. There's not enough depth to the character or the actress to justify this much attention on her. I'd rather see more of Helen. Between Abby and Frank's bizarre prison episode, this series has been ruined for me.

She's not even Nancy Drew as much as the nosy neighbor on Bewitched. I think her character is a disservice to all the women who endured that place with their scientist husbands. I've lived on bases alongside women whose husbands' work is top secret. It takes a certain strength to deal with that in a relationship. But most of the women I knew were equally committed to their husbands' purpose, without needing to know the details.

 

I am not liking this shift to soap. I've been watching the show because I'm interested in the Manhattan project. The relationship drama from last season was reasonably integrated, and about fictional people. 

 

The focus on Oppenheimer's relationships feel salacious to me. Sure, it's a historical fact, but I don't believe we need quite as much detail. I really didn't buy his wife opening up to Abby after her dismissal of her last episode.  The intimate discussion between Charlie and Opp didn't seem too realistic for men in that day either. 

[gwhh]

Interesting background history here:

http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2015/10/13/manhattan-noir/

[shapeshifter]

Interesting background history here:

http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2015/10/13/manhattan-noir/

It reaffirmed my respect for the show.

It is not so much the story of the creation of a new weapon as it is the creation of a new world.

[Clanstarling]

It reaffirmed my respect for the show.

That, as well as giving me a different perspective on the plot developments. So I'll be watching with a different mind set next time.

[algebra]

Well if it's the creation of a new world order does that mean It has to turn into "Real

Housewives of Los Alamos?"

Because I don't know how much more estrogen I can stand.

The lesbian sex stuff was bad enough, but Abby lurking around and popping out behind corners to tell Charlie the latest thrilling news around the neighborhood is awful. I was really hoping she'd leave Charlie.

[shapeshifter]

This article nicely parses the differences between fact and fiction for this episode: http://www.atomicheritage.org/article/“manhattan”-season-2-episode-4-indispensable-man

[gwhh]

Those shack homes don't have a basement!

I was starting to wonder what happened to Joey also.

The sciencetist that working for the soviets. In real life the guy that give the atomic bombs secrets to the soviets. Did it because he was a die hard commie and believed ccommunism should rule the world.

 

Abby really annoys me. She has a child, (although I'm starting to wonder if Joey is kept locked in the basement) and a job, and a house to keep, and no modern appliances, she should be too busy to be bored, washing dishes in the sink and hanging laundry on the clothesline. It's not surprising she's unhappy, but she should be too tired to think about it.

Edited November 11, 2015 by gwhh

[Tara Ariano]

Frank attempts to navigate his new place on the Hill.

[Rhetorica]

I'm beginning to be bored with these people. With this subject matter, how is that possible?!

[gwhh]

When they call out people in army barracks to go to the front. They use the wrong rank for one! There was no rank of lance corporal in the us army in ww2.

But it is a rank today in the usmc and was a rank in the usmc before ww2

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_corporal#Marine_Corps

Edited November 14, 2015 by gwhh

[mjc570]

Yeah, I'm not enjoying this as much as last season. While I liked Frank being such a good soldier, were we supposed to be surprised that he was helping out technically? I don't care about Abby, there was way too much talking (using the reporter for exposition is just tired), why hasn't the scientist from site x bee given any dialogue or plot?

I don't understand why the British guy is in charge (I'm not even sure in charge of what, when a show needs an organizational chart, that's not good tv). For that matter, I found it hard to believe he was so prescient about cyber warfare when he is involved in building such a game changer as the gadget.

I'll keep watching, but I really hope the writers know what they're doing, because the acting is great.

[ganesh]

I'm wondering if something happens on the show that turns him into a commie. Right now, he's calmly using game theory to formulate MAD, and I just think the concept is a little premature.

[bentley]

I'm still enjoying the show, but I do think the writers have gotten away from what made it so compelling last season. Theflashing back and forward has made them lose some of the atmosphere of the place. The paranoia, the invasion of privacy, the total control of the people there, made last season so interesting. I also want to see scientists working and testing theories and having setbacks and overcoming them. All  that  stuff that comes with building a weapon that has never been built before. In last night's episode, I didn't want to watch Frank leaving people messages that he has solved this or that problem. I wanted to know what the problem was, and watch him figure it out.

 

I would also like to know why Charlie has suddenly become a cold, corporate shill who seems more and more remote from the team and the actual design work. Frank was in his place once and he never just sat behind a desk while the rest of the team did the work. I thought Charlie was pretty cold overall to Frank, and I don't get his animosity. 

 

Last night's epi proved that the houses are still bugged. Which makes me wonder about some pretty incriminating conversations Charlie and his wife have had, with no repercussions. 

 

Finally, because it can't be said enough, Colonel Darrow needs to die painfully real soon. Real soon.

[orangepeel]

I'm still enjoying the show, but I do think the writers have gotten away from what made it so compelling last season. The flashing back and forward has made them lose some of the atmosphere of the place. The paranoia, the invasion of privacy, the total control of the people there, made last season so interesting. I also want to see scientists working and testing theories and having setbacks and overcoming them. All  that  stuff that comes with building a weapon that has never been built before. In last night's episode, I didn't want to watch Frank leaving people messages that he has solved this or that problem. I wanted to know what the problem was, and watch him figure it out.

 

I would also like to know why Charlie has suddenly become a cold, corporate shill who seems more and more remote from the team and the actual design work. Frank was in his place once and he never just sat behind a desk while the rest of the team did the work. I thought Charlie was pretty cold overall to Frank, and I don't get his animosity. 

 

Last night's epi proved that the houses are still bugged. Which makes me wonder about some pretty incriminating conversations Charlie and his wife have had, with no repercussions. 

 

Finally, because it can't be said enough, Colonel Darrow needs to die painfully real soon. Real soon.

 

Totally agree w/the problem solving angle. I miss that. It's pretty much all politics now. We're not really sure what they're trying to solve, it's just  alluded to only briefly - uranium refinement.

 

Yeah, I'm not enjoying this as much as last season. While I liked Frank being such a good soldier, were we supposed to be surprised that he was helping out technically? I don't care about Abby, there was way too much talking (using the reporter for exposition is just tired), why hasn't the scientist from site x bee given any dialogue or plot?

I don't understand why the British guy is in charge (I'm not even sure in charge of what, when a show needs an organizational chart, that's not good tv). For that matter, I found it hard to believe he was so prescient about cyber warfare when he is involved in building such a game changer as the gadget.

I'll keep watching, but I really hope the writers know what they're doing, because the acting is great.

 

I think Helen is in charge of the gun group but is vying w/the black guy from season 1 who basically fixed the nuclear power plant for something like a sci tech liaison. 

 

Not fond of the Crosley plot. He's not likable, doesn't seem to care. They're also juggling too many stories. Well, Dunleavy, RIP, is one that is tied up. Frank as an enlisted private was interesting, but it feels like the story is meandering, when it should be a little more linear.

Edited November 11, 2015 by orangepeel

[Stratego]

Totally agree w/the problem solving angle. I miss that. It's pretty much all politics now. We're not really sure what they're trying to solve, it's just  alluded to only briefly - uranium refinement.

 

 

 

 

 

The problem is uranium enrichment.  The key isotope is U-235 which is only 0.72% of yellow cake ore.  Weapons grade is about 85%, power reactors are 4-5%. The  Uranium must be enriched (the useless U-238 isotope, and others) to make the end result weapons grade.  They discussed three ways to enrich--the US selected a hybrid of them with the dominant being gaseous diffusion.  The Ur is reacted with Fluorine to form UF(6) with the gas being diffused to concentrate the 235 isotope from the rest.  The entire process has many stages to effect the enrichment and consumes vast amounts of electricity from the TVA (Oak Ridge TN is the site).  If you have been paying attention to the political discussion concerning Iran, they have built a plant using very special centrifuges to perform the separation.

[peeayebee]

Frank as an enlisted private was interesting

He certainly looked healthier than he has in a long time.

 

I have to admit I was pretty confused thruout this ep.

[shapeshifter]

I liked it. Well, maybe "appreciated" is a more accurate word. Frank convinced himself that he was going back to stop the creation of The Destroyer Of Worlds, but really, he just wanted to be solving physics problems again.

I respect that the show managed to make me sad about Dunlevy's death. He really didn't kill the guy last season with any malice--and I suppose he was killed by soldiers who didn't care about him personally either.

I'm surprised Frank didn't keep Dunlevy's death to himself given his wife's fragile psyche.

 Finally, because it can't be said enough, Colonel Darrow needs to die painfully real soon. Real soon.

Not sure how soon, but it should be satisfying.

[Broderbits]

Shapeshifter said:

 

I'm surprised Frank didn't keep Dunlevy's death to himself given his wife's fragile psyche.

Liza seems to be so much stronger this season. Maybe it's the work she's doing, maybe it's the fact that she had to keep it together in order to find Frank and get him released. But he was right to tell her because she'll have to tell the daughter and help her deal.

 

Come to think of it, isn't Liza the only person to fight the despicable Colonel and win (sort of)?

[ganesh]

Solving the enrichment problem is monumental. It's fine that Frank came up with it, but for *the* key problem that led to Little Boy; i.e., what essentially ended the war in the pacific, to be solved off screen is patently ridiculous. They did a great job balancing science talk/drama of actually solving the *nuclear weapon implosion problem* last season, so it's not like they don't know how to do that. I mean, they got the enrichment processes right. 

 

Not to mention Helen's getting zero credit for coming up with the uranium bullet for the gun assembly. 

 

The only reason I think Charlie was so cold to Frank is because he's gone through the mental wringer since being put in charge of implosion; he admitted he didn't know much about it. Maybe he was worried Frank was going to expose him as a fraud? Maybe the show could have actually spent time on this?

 

Highly enriched uranium is 90%+ btw for a bomb. Higher yield; ka boom.

 

The V/O at the end was cloying. Do better show. 

 

I get you can't make the show about the scientists doing a physics problems all day, although when the show does that it's been quite good, and I know you need to expand the show universe in the second season, but one episode was all Frank, then for some reason they just told a whole bunch of exposition as a flashback to cover a few months. Ok, you need to advance the timeline, but what's going on here? 

[shapeshifter]

Helen's getting zero credit for coming up with the uranium bullet for the gun assembly. 

At the same time that I could feel her frustration and fury, I was not surprised; it rang true. I was born in the 50s and still wonder what my life would have been if I'd been born male.

[Clanstarling]

I get you can't make the show about the scientists doing a physics problems all day, although when the show does that it's been quite good, and I know you need to expand the show universe in the second season, but one episode was all Frank, then for some reason they just told a whole bunch of exposition as a flashback to cover a few months. Ok, you need to advance the timeline, but what's going on here?

From a purely industry standpoint, I wondered why they were advancing the timeline so much - kind of shortens the length of the series, unless it is a limited series (which it might be, I guess).

 

This episode reminded me of an old MASH episode with the flashbacks while talking to someone (in this case a reporter, in MASH, IIRC, a psychiatrist).  I didn't mind the structure, but I found the plot development of forcing Frank to enlist and then requiring him to stay unbelievable. I realize the army I grew up in was focused on different things than the version represented here, but this just seemed something done for plot purposes than something that might actually have happened.

 

Was it just me, or did anyone else think, for a minute, that Liza was living with the reporter (again), when Frank came over? It was something about the way Frank asked for his wife that struck me as odd.

Edited November 14, 2015 by clanstarling

[gwhh]

What up with Abby miscarriage? Did we just throw that in so she would not have another kid. And that would keep her too busy to do her PI number on the others wives.

[ganesh]

On television, women aren't allowed to get abortions, so they gave her a miscarriage. Now she can be guilty about not being pregnant and Think It's Her Fault. 

[shapeshifter]

In an earlier episode I understood that she was intending to get an abortion.

[Clanstarling]

On television, women aren't allowed to get abortions, so they gave her a miscarriage. Now she can be guilty about not being pregnant and Think It's Her Fault. 

I agree with the "It's her Fault" point - but not because she's guilty about considering an abortion. I think she believes the miscarriage was punishment for interfering in Oppie's life and driving his lover to suicide. At least that's the way it seems to me.

 

If I recall correctly, Helen has admitted to at least one abortion, so it doesn't strike me that Abbie's non-abortion is due to a network prohibition. 

[ganesh]

I meant in general, and they're kind of portraying Helen in a poor light imo. 

[Clanstarling]

True enough.

[ganesh]

Which is why there's the tv default that abortion = Bad Woman.

[shapeshifter]

The scientists and the Army battle for control of the bomb.

One of the best episodes of the season/show, IMO.

They actually showed a minute of real science.

Best use (again, IMO) of Richard Schiff to date.

And intrigue with more subtlety than sex. And more subtle sexual references.

Sorry I'm so old and stupid about science I've forgotten: Is "33" a reference to an isotope or something? In BSG it (or a similar number) referenced the number of minutes between Cylon attacks. Now I'm wondering if there was some physics/war/history symbolism there that we all missed.

Would FDR have maybe not bombed Japan??

[jrlr]

One of the best episodes of the season/show, IMO.

They actually showed a minute of real science.

Best use (again, IMO) of Richard Schiff to date.

And intrigue with more subtlety than sex. And more subtle sexual references.

Sorry I'm so old and stupid about science I've forgotten: Is "33" a reference to an isotope or something? In BSG it (or a similar number) referenced the number of minutes between Cylon attacks. Now I'm wondering if there was some physics/war/history symbolism there that we all missed.

Would FDR have maybe not bombed Japan??

I'm no expert, but the period between FDR's death and the bombing of Hiroshima was only 5 months, so I would think that Truman was simply continuing the plan as conceived by FDR.  

 

Also loved this episode, but I'm getting really annoyed by the direction Abby's character is going in.  Compared to Liza who is actually doing something useful under much more adverse personal circumstances, Abby's eavesdropping at the switchboard and scurrying off to tattle on co-workers makes me want to use a flyswatter on her.  Abby and Charlie have both become extremely unlikable, sneaky and backstabbing this season (and I don't buy Abby's newly-found bible-toting piety, either).   Both characters could do with a little more nuance.  I feel like I'm being hammered with the message that Frank and Liza are good while Abby and Charlie are neither good nor trustworthy.  LOVED Frank's speech (rant) to the scientists.  Did anyone notice if Charlie ever walked out with the others to insist on being included on the bombing decision?

[peeayebee]

My DVR recording cut off when Darrow suddenly walked away. I assume he was just told that FDR had died, but what did I miss?

[jrlr]

My recording cut off at the same place as yours - and boy, was I pissed! - but I managed to find the show in its last fifteen minutes on a different Showtime. Darrow took the flag down to half-staff, then I think it was just seeing the reaction on people's faces as the announcement of FDR's death came over the p.a. system.  

[Mrs Shibbles]

My DVR cut off as well.

The number 33 may point to Truman as the 33rd president.

[AlwaysWatching]

The number 33 may point to Truman as the 33rd president.

 

Oh, I think that's right, Mrs. Shibbles.  I didn't catch that.  Depressing to think that Truman was president when I was born. Uh, nothing against Truman, I just feel old. ha!

My DVR screwed the heck out of this episode. I had to watch almost three different showings to get the whole episode.  It was one of the best eps of this season.  I don't read it as them demonizing Abby and Charlie so much as the writers attempting to show how different personalities clashed during this very stressful and claustrophobic time.  Abby seems to me to be someone who has gone through a bit too much and is trying to find some way to be significant when she appears to fail at everything she does. It makes her very human. Maddening, but human.  I see Liz as one more woman with a foot on her throat for being smart, capable, a little crazy and maybe too knowledgeable about too many things.  Frank, if I remember correctly from season one, was another self-centered genius that in season two, for however many reasons, has grown a conscience and now has to watch this horrific "thing" he helped build being brought to fruition.

 

I really love this show.

[janeta]

Excellent ep. Want to smack Abby. So were we ever told what happened to their son? Did he get shipped off to her parents or something? Someone just tuning into this show wouldn't know they already have a child.

[shapeshifter]

I don't read it as them demonizing Abby and Charlie so much as the writers attempting to show how different personalities clashed during this very stressful and claustrophobic time.  Abby seems to me to be someone who has gone through a bit too much and is trying to find some way to be significant when she appears to fail at everything she does.

That's how I see Abby too. Given the job that she's been given, spying is about the only option. And Charlie is no longer the golden boy, but that was sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy after he chose to not report the accidental plagiarism and live with the guilt.

[Ina123]

What the heck was that DVR breakdown. I thought it just happened to me. I'll watch again tonight to catch that last bit.

[ganesh]

Abby seems to me to be someone who has gone through a bit too much and is trying to find some way to be significant when she appears to fail at everything she does.

 

Well, they didn't have to go the miscarriage route. I'm not particularly interested in a faith and science in a time of war, but I concede that it's a legit theme to explore for the show. I just don't find the execution particularly compelling. Sorry, colonel, sometimes stuff just happens. There's just way too much Abby. And they're not helping by making her such a busybody. Ok *now* she stumbles on something

 

Frank's wife is far far far more interesting. Frank's moral dilemma in the use of the bomb is *way* more fascinating than bringing religion in. Frank is right; you have to be an idiot to not know that the Germans don't have the bomb at this point. And he's right that they should have a say.

 

Helen is way more interesting than Abby. 

Though I did like the episode. Especially all the talk about getting the critical configuration. They could have been a little more precise with the terminology, but what they showed was solid. 

I do hope they get into why or how the decision was made to drop the bombs on Japan. That's a really good moral dilemma that the show really should address imo. Especially since we know what happens. I hope Frank is the one to factor into it, actually. 

 

IIRC, Truman didn't know anything about the bomb until he was sworn in. That's why it's required that the VP be on the NSA now. 

[molshoop]

 

Depressing to think that Truman was president when I was born. Uh, nothing against Truman, I just feel old.

 

             Me too, so don't feel alone. 

[roomtorome]

My DVR cut off too. They really screwed up. I just added time to the next episode scheduled to record so i get it all next time. I had forgotten that it did the same thing last week too and I forgot to add time.

[gwhh]

I must say that episode was interesting and keep my attention to the end!!!

 

Remind me of watching the old twin peaks TV show!!

 

I think the writers been in the sun too long and drinking to much booze and smoking to many funny things! 

[shapeshifter]

Interesting NY Times article about how/why the Germans didn't have the bomb--differs from the fictional take: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/world/europe/wwii-hero-credits-luck-and-chance-in-foiling-hitlers-nuclear-ambitions.html

[shapeshifter]

Interesting recent NY Times article about how/why the Germans didn't have the bomb--differs somewhat from Frank's understanding: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/world/europe/wwii-hero-credits-luck-and-chance-in-foiling-hitlers-nuclear-ambitions.html

I guess the author doesn't watch this show.

I considered commenting about the show, but there are already 199 posts, so I feel like I'd have to read them first--not because TWoP has trained me, but to see whether there is a conversation about the show in the posts already.

Maybe later. But that might be too late.

Edited November 21, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Clanstarling]

 Abby and Charlie have both become extremely unlikable, sneaky and backstabbing this season (and I don't buy Abby's newly-found bible-toting piety, either).  

Since she and Charlie are Jewish, lugging around a "Holy Bible" instead of the Torah (or Tanakh?) seemed odd to me. Though, maybe it was a substitute. I'm not Jewish, perhaps someone who is could chime in on whether it seemed strange to them. 

 

In any case, I've never particularly liked either of them, but they have doubled down on their negative aspects this season.

Edited November 22, 2015 by clanstarling

[Tara Ariano]

The hunt for a Soviet spy turns deadly.

[shapeshifter]

Intense episode about beliefs--political, religious, moral, cultural--and prejudices.

The sketch shows it was Meeks' girlfriend's spy daddy who the boy saw--but she doesn't know that?? And he doesn't either? I can't recall whether we were shown more than one person burying the candy box in the desert. In terms of personal misery, it would have been better, I guess, if she had killed Meeks like she was told to do. He'll probably take the cyanide anyway. Meeks' make up at the end was a little too obviously like Heath Ledger's the Joker before his death.

I wonder if Liza and Abbey will bond if Abbey goes totally bonkers.

The one bright spot was Jason Ralph's character being a "fan" of Helen. I think he is now on my very short list of actors about whom I can say, "Everything's better with [this actor]."

Edited November 25, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Picture It. Sicily]

Every week, I just want to say, 'shut up Abby.' I find nothing compelling about her journey or inner turmoil. It's not all about you, woman.

Poor sweet Fritz! Poor Jeannie! Can't anyone have happiness?!

[Tara Ariano]

As the project falters, Charlie turns to an unlikely partner for help.

[mjc570]

 

Poor sweet Fritz! Poor Jeannie! Can't anyone have happiness?!

 

Seriously.  Fritz is the most decent character on the show - and in this episode, Jeannie was pretty close behind.  As soon as we saw her being nice, though, I figured she was DOA. 

 

Can't they ever tie Frank into a major story line?  He (both the actor and the character) is wasted here.  Give him Abby's show time.  I did like Charlie, though.

 

I had to laugh at Liza's "assistants" - talk about don't give a f*, they were truly "grunts." 

[shapeshifter]

Poor sweet Fritz! Poor Jeannie! Can't anyone have happiness?!

Was Fritz' exposition about the likelihood of having a "3-headed baby" supposed to make the audience think that Jeannie getting killed was "for the best"????

I had to laugh at Liza's "assistants" - talk about don't give a f*, they were truly "grunts."

Would they have been more enthusiastic if she was either a man or military? I wish they'd spelled that out more clearly.