Manhattan - General Discussion

[dohe]

Oops! Right! But I do seem to recall him being motivated by the implosion (sorry, irresistible double entendre) of his marriage. Did he run to Helen as a reaction to Elodie saying she wanted a divorce?

Yes.  However, in that moment, most decent human beings would recognize that what they did was horrible and Charlie's reaction is I need to go get laid.  Frank and Abby both cheated.  However they did not cheat due to detachment from their spouses caused by a horrible action they undertook.  Charlie's behavior is like asking a spouse to lie for him to the police so he can get away with something, the wife doing it but being devastated by her husband asking her to do that, her asking for a divorce and, instead of behaving like a decent person in hoping he can reconcile with his wife, going to get laid. 

 

I am rooting for Charlie to redeem himself.  To prove that he can be a decent human being.  In the same way, I root for Helen to redeem herself after her betrayal of Theodore.  Just because someone acts like a scumbag when they are in their early twenties, does not mean they have to remain a permanent scumbag.  Charlie, Abby, Helen, and Paul are human beings who did dreadful things.  But as with Frank in the final episode, they have the ability to prove themselves.  They have to confront what they did and accept they are responsible for doing something abhorrent.  In Abby's case she seems to recognize what she did was horrible but she needs to take a stance of empowerment. 

 

That is what's exciting.  This is only the show's first season and these characters, many of them young, have a chance to grow and become stronger, better people.  As horrible as Charlie is right now, he may turn out to be a truly good person. 

Edited October 26, 2014 by dohe

[Farnham]

Is it possible Frank Winter won't be back?  I don't see the paranoid Mr. Fisher understanding/believing the sound of the door closing on the tape.  Or accepting that he was duped into letting Charlie-the-spy go free.

 

It's hard to imagine the show without Frank, but he was getting harsher treatment than the usual suspected spy.  Elodie and her husband didn't have bags over their heads.  Almost like Frank was heading off to a quick execution in the desert.

 

At least we know there will be a season 2 in 2015.  Until this ep I couldn't find anything on the net about a renewal.

As I have mentioned in other posts/forums (fora?), The quick shots we see in the season finales of this and other dynamic series, often are meant to mislead or misdirect the audience. This can sometimes be an artificial point of increasing drama. An attentive viewer (as we all are) will by nature expect that a scene of action follows a sequential path, but this is not always the case. The scene of a person in the backseat of a car, driven by two soldiers, may or may NOT be happening right after our last view of Dr. Winter (Frank, not Liza) combing his hair, or Op listening intently to the 'confession' wire recording.

 

It may be a flash forward to the next season, or sometime hours or days after the events in this season. I believe it may be after Meeks has returned, and is fingered by his tail in NY, or Albuquerque wen he met with his contact. Also, in another loose thread for the car exiting with the bagged purp in the back seat: As the end music plays, we see the car, or similar, heading out on a dirt road and into a cloud of dust. The problem is that the first shot earlier, is in broad daylight and the final closing shot is at night... Looking forward to more discussion, and 2015 to see if the Winters are still around. Hope so.

[Farnham]

I think the envelope was him telling Oppie it wasn't going to work. 

 

Funny. I thought Oppie was a lot more involved in this than he apparently was. 

 

The guy playing Aikley did a great job of showing his desperation both with Charlie and with Frank. 

 

Abby has an interesting way of welcoming new neighbors. Sort of the reverse Welcome Wagon. 

Colonel Duck has a crappy job, but I like him as a character. CIA (were they even the CIA back then?) Toby also has a crappy job, but I like him much less. 

 

Amazing the fuss made over 1.2 grams of anything. 

 

Out of all the shows this year, this has become my favorite. 

The OSS (Office of Strategic Services) was formed by Colonel Bill Donovan on July 11, 1941. After the war, the CIA inherited the mission. There was an OSS agent sent to appraise the threat from Heisenberg, the head of the German effort. I see no mention of OSS operations in the US. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Strategic_Services

[AAEBoiler]

Josh Cooke. It amused me to see him play the über-Wasp here because on Hart of Dixie, he played Zoe's über-menschy New York boyfriend.

 

No way!!! I never made the connection that he was Joel from Hart of Dixie! Color me shocked! Good job by the actor!

[OnceSane]

Coded language regarding the LGBT community is not tolerated here. I deleted a couple posts on this matter.

[janeta]

So anyone know when/if this is coming back? :-)

Edited March 5, 2015 by janeta

[shapeshifter]

So anyone know when/if this is coming back? :-)

Since, according to this casting call, filming hasn't started yet, I'm guessing mid-summer again.

[janeta]

:-) Good; will keep an eye out.

[Mrs Shibbles]

William Petersen Joins The Cast Of MANHATTAN

http://www.seat42f.com/william-petersen-joins-the-cast-of-manhattan.html

Can't wait for season 2!

[limecoke]

I have to say I find this whole portrayal of the sexual liaisons pretty unbelievable. Sure, people have always had sex outside of marriage, but the 40's were a pretty puritanical time. That a whole group of uniformed women would be engaging in casual sex, much less charge for it, just seems completely unbelievable to me.

I agree with you completely and it's one of the things that's been bothering me about the series.  They are making a valiant effort at hairstyles but they just aren't very authentic, even for women stuck in the desert in the middle of nowhere.  The use of more current slang, etc., is also pretty jarring. I cringed when Fritz said "You made me a PB&J".  That would never have been used in the 40's.  There have been other glaring mistakes similar to that.  The women are also way too free-wheeling in their aggressiveness and use of swear words.  It's not that 40's women weren't intelligent and capable as well as well-versed in crude language, they just didn't use that language and were more subtle in getting their point across.  

 

It's a good series but the attention to detail is woeful compared to a series like "Foyle's War" which is set in the same timeframe.  

[shapeshifter]

[Griffin] Dunne has been cast as Woodrow Lorentzen, a tenacious and self-destructive newspaper reporter who finds his way inside the gates at Los Alamos and discovers the scoop of a lifetime — and also a chance to turn his life around.

http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/griffin-dunne-manhattan-season-2-1201477542/

Mamie Gummer has also been cast (slightly spoilery info about her character:http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/mamie-gummer-manhattan-wgn-america-1201468756/ ) and also:

William Petersen, who plays the new ranking military officer Col. Emmett Darrow...

Season two begins production April 14 in Santa Fe.

ETA: Odd, but true, the first season of Manhattan is eligible for this year's Emmy's: http://deadline.com/2015/03/manhattan-emmy-screener-mailed-wga-america-emmys-season-begins-1201396097/

Edited April 24, 2015 by shapeshifter

[dubbel zout]

Odd, but true, the first season of Manhattan is eligible for this year's Emmy's

 

Why is this odd? It aired within the timeframe to be eligible.

 

The second season seems to be heading in a soapy direction that I'm not sure I'll be able to see to the end. Too bad, because I like the actors who are coming in. We'll see, I guess.

[shapeshifter]

Why is this odd? It aired within the timeframe to be eligible...

It just always feels odd to me (and maybe others?) when shows that just missed the chronological cut-off for the Emmys show up next year. There was a season of Breaking Bad like that too.

[algebra]

I am really looking forward to season 2 but I sure wish they would try to follow history more than make a soap opera out of it.

At the time of the project my father was working in R&D at Raytheon, and he told my mother that something big was happening because people were disappearing.

The Kistiakowskis lived in our neighborhood. The Winters and the Isaacs seem to be derived from that family; the Winters' daughter seems to be based on Vera Kistiakowski who was a teenager at the time. But Charlie Isaacs seems to be a character based on George Kistiakowski.

I was really bothered by dumb stuff in season 1, like a botanist using the word ecosystem to describe symbiosis. And people really did die of radiation exposure accidents, they didn't just drink a lot of beer and recover. I hope the new season will not insult the intelligence of the viewers..

[OSM Mom]

When does the new season start?

[shapeshifter]

When does the new season start?

Glad you asked...

October 2015 and a 45 second trailer (scroll down) are on this page dated a week ago: when-will.net/tv-series/205-when-is-manhattan-season-2-coming-out-release-date-2015.html

ETA: I'm embarrassed to admit that I came up with this thread's title. If anyone has a better one, please ask the mods to change it, or, if you are a mod, please just do it.

Edited July 5, 2015 by shapeshifter

[OSM Mom]

Glad you asked...

October 2015 and a 45 second trailer (scroll down) are on this page dated a week ago: when-will.net/tv-series/205-when-is-manhattan-season-2-coming-out-release-date-2015.html

ETA: I'm embarrassed to admit that I came up with this thread's title. If anyone has a better one, please ask the mods to change it, or, if you are a mod, please just do it.

Thanks!

[applecrisp]

I am sad I thought it would come out this summer.  A girl can hope.

[shapeshifter]

"A Manhattan Project Veteran Reflects on His Atomic Bomb Work," New York Times, July 26, 2015.

[shapeshifter]

New promo:

[algebra]

Oh crap it's going to be a lot of sex and violence and no physics or politics?

Don't they know who their audience is?

[shapeshifter]

Oh crap it's going to be a lot of sex and violence and no physics or politics?

Don't they know who their audience is?

Well, it looks like politics is going to drive the bomb part of the plot, but as for all the sex and dungeons, I'm hoping it's just the usual promo monkey shenanigans and that those parts aren't that much of the show.

[janeta]

Aw damn; it's going to be airing against Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. in my market. :(

[algebra]

I was just back in Massachusetts visiting my mother, telling her about this show, and she told me the oddest thing about the Kistiakowskis (and there were a LOT of odd things about the neighbors around the corner) was that when my mom announced her last pregnancy, Irma immediately said "oh I'm so sorry" as if my mom had cancer, not a pregnancy.

Hah!

[shapeshifter]

I was just back in Massachusetts visiting my mother, telling her about this show, and she told me the oddest thing about the Kistiakowskis (and there were a LOT of odd things about the neighbors around the corner) was that when my mom announced her last pregnancy, Irma immediately said "oh I'm so sorry" as if my mom had cancer, not a pregnancy.

Hah!

So, this guy's wife?: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Kistiakowsky#Manhattan_Project

Interestingly, he and his wife had a daughter in 1928 who became a physicist at MIT: http://www2.cambridgema.gov/historic/cwhp/bios_k.html

FWIW, my own mother (born in 1928) was also very sorry about my pregnancies. My mother had plans to teach or act before having children. Maybe Kistiakowsky's wife, Hildegard Moebius, wanted to be a physicist herself.

Anyway, what a great last name she had!

[Tara Ariano]

Charlie is forced into a new leadership role in the race to build the world's first atomic bomb.

[Primetimer]

But it's intentional. WGN's great Manhattan returns for Season 2. How well you understand it may depend on how much you remember from last year.

Read the story

[shapeshifter]

Killing off RS was a shocker--can't help wondering if it was because he was too busy to commit to more episodes, and/or if he didn't want to continue with the show for philosophical reasons regarding his character and/or plot reasons, and/or if that was the writers' plan all along, or if they just needed to make casting cuts for budgetary reasons.

So. Charlie's speech was a genius ruse to get Frank free, right? The "bomb Berlin" on a specific date was to trigger the spy to get caught releasing false info--which almost worked. Or is Toby getting killed off not the end of catching the spy? Well, of course not, but is it the end of that attempt?

[JoannKB]

Where I can see this show? I got hooked on season 1 back when I had Comcast, now I have Time Warner and they don't have WGN America in my line up. Any help?

[shapeshifter]

Where I can see this show? I got hooked on season 1 back when I had Comcast, now I have Time Warner and they don't have WGN America in my line up. Any help?

It looks like you can watch the current episode via Amazon, iTunes, and VUDU.com if you don't have Comcast.

[ganesh]

I'm not a big fan of the "show a big scene at the opener" and then flashback to 15 months earlier. However, to be fair, these people were under immense strain to get a working bomb before the Germans, so this season is kind of a..adjusts tie...a ticking time bomb. Thank you very much.Seriously, this is one of the rare times that the framing device is justified. 

 

I also like that there's no more debate about implosion. That kind of bored me toward the end.

 

I'm not a big fan of Charlie, but I like that he was running around rather freaked out about everything too. 

[Rhetorica]

A solid second season opener. Many storylines wrapped up and then moved to new ones. Is "Where is Frank Winter?" going to be a season long question? Hate to see Toby go.

[dubbel zout]

Seriously, this is one of the rare times that the framing device is justified.

 

I disagree, given that the show is using the historical time frame, at least as far as the endgame goes. I don't think a reminder of where we are in that time frame is amiss, but we don't need the literal ticking bomb, IMO. That urgency and suspense is one of the main points of the entire show.

 

I'm glad they got rid of the daughter. Her complaints weren't any different from anyone else, and I don't think she added much to Frank's and Liza's stories.

Edited October 15, 2015 by dubbel zout

[Clanstarling]

I enjoyed the framing device as well - because although it was a little confusing in the beginning, and although we all know the bombs ultimately worked, with the last framing scene we found out that: the spy Meeks was still working with them (presumably undiscovered); Charlie was still in charge, Frank was mentioned (though "arrest him or use all necessary force" does not bode well), everyone on the team was there - except for Helen (unless I missed her). There were enough unanswered questions that I was drawn in to what would happen in the next 15 months. And frankly, I appreciated a time frame. Last season I was continually trying to remember how long it was until Hiroshima.

 

Anyway, he's the New Boss, the replacement for Reed Akley (remember him?), and a quietly terrifying religious nutterbutter who's one bottle of cooking oil short of a John Ashcroft type (Matt Debenham - "Manhattan Returns For Season 2, And Something's...Off"

I believe William Peterson replaces Mark Moses' character Col. Alden Cox, rather than Akley. That aside, I think this nutterbutter will be interesting.

 

I was shocked Richard Schiff was killed off. Even at his last, he had it the wrong way around - thinking Frank had recruited Meeks.

[bentley]

 

So. Charlie's speech was a genius ruse to get Frank free, right?

 

Was it? At the beginning of the speech, I thought so too. He was going to get the masses riled up and demand answers, and let TIIC know he wasn't going to let it go. But when he lied and said he'd talked to Frank,and  everything's okay, etc. I wondered if he was compromising his ethics so he could stay in charge. I don't think my reading of it was wrong, because Helen seemed to be mirroring my thoughts. First proud of him, then angered enough to walk away. Now maybe Charlie is playing a deeper game. Is that how you read it? I'd love to think so, because I find the Charlie and Frank relationship the most compelling one of the show. I'm a little bummed to think they'll spend most of the season apart. I'd be even more bummed if I thought Charlie could dismiss all concerns for Frank just for the sake of politics and power.

 

Any guesses as to whether the baby has already been aborted and she's playing along until she can "lose the baby" in a more acceptable way? One interesting thing about the flashforward is that we know whatever they tried to give their marriage a second chance didn't work, since Charlie is openly sleeping with Helen.

 

So glad to lose the daughter, and hopefully less screentime for her boyfriend too. They were not at all interesting to me.

 

Didn't think I could hate anymore more than Richard Schiff's character last season, but Colonel Nutterbutter (heh) is going to earn a spot on the list, I can tell already.

 

 

Is "Where is Frank Winter?" going to be a season long question?

 

complete with ad campaign titled "Winter is coming".

[ganesh]

I think part of Charlie's speech at the end was to frame the framing device. I don't know how many viewers outside of here are really aware of the urgency and terror of the race to make the bomb first. They were basically inventing everything by the day.

 

I think also Charlie felt he needed to give Frank credit to everyone else, but he knew that no else but him and Frank knew anything about implosion, so better for Charlie to be in charge, and he if had to lie to get everyone in line, then, necessary evil. 

 

We also know, or should know, the Soviets got the bomb from the spies at the project, but we also know Trinity was a success. It's not clear if this bomb is Trinity. So the flashforwards I think have a place. 

Edited October 16, 2015 by ganesh

[gwhh]

actually the guy that kills agent x-4 is SOVIET NOT German! You need to change that part!

[gwhh]

Did anyone else think its odd that a MP was right in the room with the high ranking brain trust type? 

[algebra]

I was actually surprised to see it pouring rain there, in the summer, looked it up. It was true, when folks arrived for the Trinity test it was pouring.

The brief mention of gambling at the big meeting with Oppenheimer led me to expect we'd see Charlie and Oppenheimer bet one month's salary (Charlie's) for the test to work against Oppenheimers $10 that it wouldn't, so I suppose the wager could still come later.

The whole business about bombing Berlin had a lot to do with the Europeans on the project not caring if the Russians got the bomb before the Americans, as long as it got dropped on Berlin. The Russians really wanted Berlin which was why Eisenhower gave it to them. Payback's a bitch you know. Berlin got what it deserved.

As for Callie Winter, did they send her to Mt Holyoke? That was where Vera Kistiakowsky was enrolled; she spent her summers with her father at Los Alamos. I have always thought Callie's character was based on her.

[algebra]

So, this guy's wife?: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Kistiakowsky#Manhattan_Project

Interestingly, he and his wife had a daughter in 1928 who became a physicist at MIT: http://www2.cambridgema.gov/historic/cwhp/bios_k.html

FWIW, my own mother (born in 1928) was also very sorry about my pregnancies. My mother had plans to teach or act before having children. Maybe Kistiakowsky's wife, Hildegard Moebius, wanted to be a physicist herself.

Anyway, what a great last name she had!

Irma was George's second wife. She raised horses. I think he had three wives in all.

I only met her a few times; most memorable was when she called my mother and asked for help getting a raccoon out of her house and needed my help I was 12 or 13 at the time and was the neighborhood go-to kid for such things. We already had a pet raccoon named George so we named the female from her house Irma.

[shapeshifter]

Was it? At the beginning of the speech, I thought so too. He was going to get the masses riled up and demand answers, and let TIIC know he wasn't going to let it go. But when he lied and said he'd talked to Frank,and  everything's okay, etc. I wondered if he was compromising his ethics so he could stay in charge. I don't think my reading of it was wrong, because Helen seemed to be mirroring my thoughts. First proud of him, then angered enough to walk away. Now maybe Charlie is playing a deeper game. Is that how you read it?

Yes, but is that just wishful thinking on my part? Charlie is the smartest person in the room/character on the show, and I don't think he's morally compromised about the bomb--although he has been shown to be morally compromised in his personal life--by most people's standards--not sure about my own. The plagiarism incident does not really define his moral compass because it was initially accidental, and the breakthrough ideas in the paper were his own. I like the ambiguity of his speech, if that's what the writers intended, but did they? I'm not sure, especially now that I read:

The whole business about bombing Berlin had a lot to do with the Europeans on the project not caring if the Russians got the bomb before the Americans, as long as it got dropped on Berlin.

So does this mean Charlie's Berlin comment was genuine? I had thought he was just planting false intel for the mole as part of a scheme to free Frank.

[Autumn]

I think Charlie was between a rock and a hard place.  Oppenheimer told him that he needed to step up and calm the team or the whole project was in danger and K4 told him Frank' sacrifice would be for nothing if he didn't continue.  If he had told the room that Frank was missing it would have been chaos and likely he would have 'disappeared.'  I think he said Berlin to pump up the team.  At that stage did any of them know the targets would be in Japan?

 

I don't usually like flash forwards but reminding people that Hiroshima does happen places the focus more on what obstacles stood in their way and not on will they or won't they get to that stage.  We know they do but I think the show was reassuring us they weren't going to mess with history by changing the outcome.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Autumn

[ganesh]

The plagiarism incident does not really define his moral compass because it was initially accidental, and the breakthrough ideas in the paper were his own.

 

Frank also confirmed that Charlie's actual work in the paper was legit too, so it's not like he doesn't know what he's doing. 

 

I don't usually like flash forwards but reminding people that Hiroshima does happen places the focus more on what obstacles stood in their way and not on will they or won't they get to that stage.

 

That's what I was saying. It's such a huge, inevitable event that the ff works in this case. Plus, with everyone fixed on bombing Berlin, I'm interested in how the target gets selected.

 

I just squirm when Oppenheimer is in a scene. He's so oily and creepy. 

[Clanstarling]

Any guesses as to whether the baby has already been aborted and she's playing along until she can "lose the baby" in a more acceptable way? One interesting thing about the flashforward is that we know whatever they tried to give their marriage a second chance didn't work, since Charlie is openly sleeping with Helen.

 

Didn't think I could hate anymore more than Richard Schiff's character last season, but Colonel Nutterbutter (heh) is going to earn a spot on the list, I can tell already.

 

 

complete with ad campaign titled "Winter is coming".

Our guess was that she'd already had the abortion. I'd forgotten the scene with Charlie and Helen was in the flash forward. "Winter is Coming." Brilliant!

 

The whole business about bombing Berlin had a lot to do with the Europeans on the project not caring if the Russians got the bomb before the Americans, as long as it got dropped on Berlin. The Russians really wanted Berlin which was why Eisenhower gave it to them. Payback's a bitch you know. Berlin got what it deserved.

Having studied what happened to both the non-combatants in the Soviet Union, and the "payback" in Berlin, I don't think I could say the city had it coming. The military leaders, definitely. 

 

Yes, but is that just wishful thinking on my part? Charlie is the smartest person in the room/character on the show, and I don't think he's morally 

So does this mean Charlie's Berlin comment was genuine? I had thought he was just planting false intel for the mole as part of a scheme to free Frank.

I thought that as well. 

 

That's what I was saying. It's such a huge, inevitable event that the ff works in this case. Plus, with everyone fixed on bombing Berlin, I'm interested in how the target gets selected.

The test was in July 1945 - by then, the European war was over (VE Day was May 8,1945). So all eyes were on Japan.

Edited October 16, 2015 by clanstarling

[ganesh]

I know that. We don't know in show-time if they changed targets before that or who is going to make the selection of Hiroshima. On the show. 

[tanita]

Why do I get the feeling that Frank is waiting for the mole right there in that shed that is hiding the bomb ?

 

Totally think Abby aborted already and is just stalling Charlie. As for him sleeping with Helen - I think both of those scenes were in the flashback so we don't know if he left his wife or got left.

 

And if I remember correctly, Hiroshima wasn't even the first planed target. The initial target had to much clouds obscuring the city and it was drooped in favor of Hiroshima. Or was that with the Nagasaki bombing ?

 

Yeah, the European part of the war was over before they were ready to test the bomb. That is why the targets were moved to Japan, because Japan didn't want to surrender and USA saw using the bomb as a swift way to prove their superiority and end the war. That is why at least two bombs had to be dropped. The Japanese thought that US had only one and had used it on Hiroshima, which is why Nagasaki was so important.

Edited October 16, 2015 by tanita

[ganesh]

I'm totally on board with Frank running some stealth mission. 

[kay1864]

From Wikipedia:

"Kokura was the backup target for the "Little Boy" bomb on August 6, 1945, so if Hiroshima had been clouded over, the first atomic bomb would have been dropped on Kokura.

Kokura was the primary target for the "Fat Man" bomb on August 9, 1945, but on the morning of the raid, the city was obscured by clouds and smoke from the firebombing of the neighboring city of Yahata the day before. Since the mission commander Major Charles Sweeney had orders to drop the bomb visually and not by radar, he diverted to the secondary target, Nagasaki."

Little Boy was a gun-type bomb, and Fat Man was an implosion-type. So ultimately both were used. Wonder when we'll see the gun-type reintroduced.

[tanita]

Yeah, so it was for Nagasaki. It's been a along time since I've seen any Atomic Bomb documentary. Must have mixed up the stories for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Clanstarling]

I know that. We don't know in show-time if they changed targets before that or who is going to make the selection of Hiroshima. On the show. 

I am sorry, I misunderstood your original comment.

Edited October 16, 2015 by clanstarling