S04.E10: The Children

[Conan Troutman]

Saying that Shae attacked Tyrion first is looking at it from Tyrion's perspective.

Shae was minding her own business when Tyrion showed-up with a big frown on his face (whether Tyrion was trespassing or breaking and entering, I'll leave to the lawyers). Shae, understandably concerned for her safety, reaches for a knife. At this point all Shae has done is engage in rudimentary self-defenses against an intruder whom Shae could reasonably believe wants to hurt her. Before she can do anything, Tyrion is on the bed attacking Shae. The only reason that knife gets close to Tyrion is because Tyrion moved towards Shae, not because Shae moved towards Tyrion. Nor did Tyrion make any effort to run away. In short, everything Tyrion did escalated the situation.

 

Yes, I was looking at it from his perspective. Because he's one of my favorite characters, so of course I'm interested in his motives and intentions. Shae on the other hand, I couldn't care less (even more since the trial). 

 

Of course it's understandable she grabbed the knife. And yes, he was the intruder and didn't move away, so objectively speaking, he's probably guilty of at least voluntary manslaughter.

But let's not project our own sense of justice and morality in the world of GoT - I'm totally fine with murder in this universe if it's justified in the sense that the victim deserved it. Because otherwise pretty much every character would be guilty of something. I don't even blame Cersei for assisting in/planning Roberts little hunting accident, because he did treat her like shit. In the same way, Shae deliberately screwed Tyrion over at the trial and then "betrayed" him with his father. Albeit this came after a tragic misunderstanding (when Tyrion insulted her to get her to leave), from his point of view I think it was understandable. Even if it wasn't even out of self preservation, but out of pure rage. 

[CletusMusashi]

Please please please let Ser Pounce be the new Paw of the King.

Edited June 17, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[NoWillToResist]

I wanted to scream in frustration when Brienne and Arya and the Hound were all talking. No mention of Sansa? So, Arya and the Hound finally arrived at the Eyrie and just...turned around and left? They didn’t even stop to have a nice night of rest and good food? And silly Brienne for not having an actual plan. Assuming you found the girls, where WERE you planning on taking them? Seeing as Arya wasn’t running into her arms, you’d think Brienne would be smart and be all “well, if you won’t come with me, I’m coming with you. I promised your mother I’d look after you, so I’m joining the crew. Let’s go look for your sister, yeah?” I am very sad that I will not get to witness the travelling circus that would have been the Hound, Brienne, Arya and Podrick. Equally, we haven’t seen his corpse, so maybe there WAS a Maester in those hills who will come across the Hound and heal him.

 

I know I shouldn’t have laughed, but I loved how the Hound was all, “oh, you’re gonna kick me in the balls? Well, I’m gonna kick you in your lady parts! See how much you like them apples!” Brutal fight though...eesh.

 

 

 

here is my insane theory about the Melissandre: Could she be Jon Snow's mother?

 

 

Doesn’t Melissandre need a bastard for one of her spells? She tried it with Gendry. Jon Snow is a bastard, so perhaps she figures he’ll do as a second attempt?

 

I think this was the most interested I've been in a Bran story since he was pushed out that window in the very first episode.

[BigBeagle]

 

Please please please let Ser Pounce be the new Paw of the King.

That's priceless. I might faint with pleasure if that happened.

 

WRT the next Hand of the King, I really have no clue who it'll be. Jaime might get the nod ... he's never wanted it, but he might do it for family; Pycelle's out ... he's a doddering old fool and you need more than a bootlicker as your Hand; as for Mace, I have a feeling (I haven't read the books, so I don't know for sure) that Cersie's going to torch the alliance between the Lannisters and the Tyrelles, so that leaves him out as well.

 

This being GoT, however, I wouldn't be shocked if FrankenMountain ends up in the position.

[KurlyGrl]

 

 

Part of me was wondering if Cersei was just bluffing when she threatened Tywin she'd tell the truth about her children's parentage if her marriage to Loras wasn't called off.  Unless Cersei was planning to flee to Essos with Tommen, the best case scenario is Tommen ends up at the Wall and Cersei's head decorates a spike in King's Landing.

Part of me was wondering if Cersei had thought that through.

As for who will be the next Hand, assuming we don't get a new character, I think it will be Pycelle or Mace Tyrell

Pycelle is a Lannister bootlicker through and through.  He's already gone to bat for Cersei twice, once when he told her that Tyrion planned to send Myrcella to Dorne, and a second time when he lied at Tyron's trial about Tyrion stealing Pycelle's potions.  Cersei doesn't like him, but you don't have to like the people that lick your boots provided they do so unhesitatingly and with a minimum of fuss.

Like Pycelle, Mace would also be a figurehead.  It would also be a way of throwing a bone to him for breaking off Cersei's engagement to Loras.  No one wanted that engagement for the late Lord Tywin Lannister, but calling off the engagement might look as if the Lannister-Tyrell alliance was weakening.  Appointing Mace as Hand would help to dispel that notion.  But the risk is that Mace would take direction from his mother, Lady Olenna should she ever visit the capital, or even remotely via courier.

 

Oh, I don't think she was bluffing at all. She was most serious.  Because she KNEW that Tywin would never allow the rumor to be confirmed.  Talk about losing face. Tywin would have to hide himself in shame.  Oh, no.  That could never happen as far as Tywin was concerned.  She had his number there, and good.  And I also bet she never thought about, well, what if I did tell the world the truth.  Her brain doesn't allow for long term thinking. She lives very much in the moment.  She has no inkling of the long term implications that would happen with that reveal.

 

 

And can you really see Pycell as Hand. LOL!!  I crack up thinking about it.  I know the choices are very limited, but he pretends to be a doddering old fool.  He'd be an embarrassment as Hand.  He'd get no respect.  He'd have to drop the act and straighten himself up.  I agree with your thoughts on Mace being Hand.  But who chooses The Hand?  The King?  In this case it would be Cersei.  Can you imagine her thinking logically and long term like you just did and pick Mace. LOL!!  No.  She'd pick Pycell.

[resonance]

Saying that Shae attacked Tyrion first is looking at it from Tyrion's perspective.

Shae was minding her own business when Tyrion showed-up with a big frown on his face (whether Tyrion was trespassing or breaking and entering, I'll leave to the lawyers). Shae, understandably concerned for her safety, reaches for a knife. At this point all Shae has done is engage in rudimentary self-defenses against an intruder whom Shae could reasonably believe wants to hurt her. Before she can do anything, Tyrion is on the bed attacking Shae. The only reason that knife gets close to Tyrion is because Tyrion moved towards Shae, not because Shae moved towards Tyrion. Nor did Tyrion make any effort to run away. In short, everything Tyrion did escalated the situation.

That's from the perspective of two random strangers. Given Tyrion and Shae's history, it is reasonable to construe that Shae likely had intent to kill. Also, while Tyrion jumped on top of Shae, this was not so much because we knew that Shae would not approach Tyrion so much as she had no time to act.

 

All in all, it cannot be said with confidence whether or not Shae acted in self defense or whether Tyrion was wrong to kill her. The entire encounter was one gray area. But, if one deems it acceptable for Tyrion to kill Tywin who was clearly defenseless, then I would not understand the controversy with Shae except out of the feminist argument which is completely meta and should not be applied to the fictional world. Shae deserved her death more than the majority of GoT characters.

[Rocket]

Yep Tyrion committed voluntary manslaughter, actually felony murder as a killing as part of the felony of escape from imprisonment. That is if you believe that the Lanister government is legitimate and think Tyrion's conviction for killing the king correct and proper. I don't think the Lanister government is legitimate and the trial was clearly unjust and Shae was part of that unjust attempt to murder Tyrion. I can then argue Tyrion had the same right as anyone in a resistance movement to kill political leaders and members of the ruling group which Shae  is clearly a member  with her trial testimony. Yes when the government is illegitimate many actions become ethically iffy. 

 

This trip to the north by Stanus must be something for Shiren (see spelling note) actually let out of her cell maybe even let on the deck of the boat and then able to ride in the Northland. Unfortunately no Shiren and Davos time to amuse. 

 

I'm sure the Wolf bread was ate as no way it could be expected to last on the trip. 

 

I don't think the Hound would ever raped Sansa although I'm sure he would have had sex with her if she seamed willing no regular person in a culture like Westros would ever not consider a girl that hit puberty not old enough. Only a well educated exception like Tyrion would want a wife they could actually have a relationship with as well as children (like for almost all of human history) Yep exceptions in example Romeo and Juliet, Juliets mother is upset her almost 14 daughter had not had her fist kid at 12 like she did, father wants a exception to norm few more years for Juliet to avoid marriage. 

 

note Shiren could not find in HBO guide so unsure of spelling don't want to spoil looking elsewhere

 

I know I shouldn’t have laughed, but I loved how the Hound was all, “oh, you’re gonna kick me in the balls? Well, I’m gonna kick you in your lady parts! See how much you like them apples!” Brutal fight though...eesh.

Oh yes most don't realize that hitting a girl there basically just as effective as hitting a guy there. Guys are more subject to lessor impacts but if the impact full force it hurts roughly the same body parts. Love that detail. Just going to ignore that both should have helmets. Briane should have a full helm and the Hound would have at least a foot soldier helmet pick up on the road if he did not get one lying around at Blackwater. 

Edited June 17, 2014 by Rocket

[KurlyGrl]

 

Yep exceptions in example Romeo and Juliet, Juliets mother is upset her almost 14 daughter had not had her fist kid at 12 like she did, father wants a exception to norm few more years for Juliet to avoid marriage.

 

And Juliette was betrothed to her 1st  cousin.  They must be related to the Targs.

[Luckylyn]

 

Agreed about Jaime freeing Tyrion being a plot twist, but not a hole. I'm surprised, though, that the possibility Jaime might intervene never occurred to Cersei - or Tywin.

I think Cersei suspected that Jaime would help Tyrion and that's why she seduced Jaime.  She was trying to entice him to be loyal to her and abandon Tyrion.  When she said "I choose you" I thought there was an unspoken, "Choose me over Tyrion."

[Taget]

As for who will be the next Hand, assuming we don't get a new character, I think it will be Pycelle or Mace Tyrell

 

In the pilot, Cersei told Jaime that he should be the Hand, but Jaime was vehement about not being the Hand, and I don't see Jaime changing his mind.  Moreover, at some point in Season 2, Cersei told someone (Tyrion?) that Jaime isn't serious enough to be the Hand.  I also don't think she'd trust Jaime as the Hand after he sprung Tyrion from jail.

 

Pycelle is a Lannister bootlicker through and through.  He's already gone to bat for Cersei twice, once when he told her that Tyrion planned to send Myrcella to Dorne, and a second time when he lied at Tyron's trial about Tyrion stealing Pycelle's potions.  Cersei doesn't like him, but you don't have to like the people that lick your boots provided they do so unhesitatingly and with a minimum of fuss.

 

Like Pycelle, Mace would also be a figurehead.  It would also be a way of throwing a bone to him for breaking off Cersei's engagement to Loras.  No one wanted that engagement for the late Lord Tywin Lannister, but calling off the engagement might look as if the Lannister-Tyrell alliance was weakening.  Appointing Mace as Hand would help to dispel that notion.  But the risk is that Mace would take direction from his mother, Lady Olenna should she ever visit the capital, or even remotely via courier.

 

The most important thing to Cersei is going to be that the hand be someone she can control and who will do her bidding.  After all since Jon Arryn every hand has either been a danger to her and/or tried to put her in her place.  That rules out Mace Tyrell who is already immensely powerful being the one with the army that keeps the Lannisters in power.  Maester Pycelle is old and I am not sure even eligible.   Jaime is possible but ambition is not his strong suit.  And after releasing Tyrion (assuming she wasn't in on it as a plot to get rid of Tywin) Cercei may be leery about him having his own agenda separate from hers.

 

Game of Thrones if anything likes to recycle characters as much as they can.  And I can't see them just letting him move to some castle and live happily ever after.  So this is who I am going to speculate on.  Bronn.

 

He will do whatever you ask of him as long as he's well paid.  Is competent and ruthless enough to get it done.  Certainly not a moralist who will scoff at even her insanest and most blood thirsty demands.  And the fact he turned on Tyrion on her behest will work to his benefit.  In fact she'd get a kick over the fact that it would annoy Tyrion.

[Rocket]

Well if Stanus can make a new knight Davos with common background hand than Cercei could do the same. On the other hand a ideal hand is someone with political power of their own and much greater respect like Tywin and Ned. Well Ned not so much on his lack of political skills but that was both his and  Roberts fault being willfully ignorant of the down and dirty the Hand must get into. They should have read in-depth history more. But in theory someone like Ned should have known better. 

[MrWhyt]

 

Doesn’t Melissandre need a bastard for one of her spells? She tried it with Gendry.

 

What was important with Gendry wasn't that he was a bastard but that he had the blood of a king.

[Conan Troutman]

Jaime is possible but ambition is not his strong suit.  And after releasing Tyrion (assuming she wasn't in on it as a plot to get rid of Tywin) Cercei may be leery about him having his own agenda separate from hers.

 

Good thought. She'll probably be pretty pissed at him when she finds out Tyrion escaped and murdered Tywin.

 

 

Game of Thrones if anything likes to recycle characters as much as they can.  And I can't see them just letting him move to some castle and live happily ever after.  So this is who I am going to speculate on.  Bronn.

 

He will do whatever you ask of him as long as he's well paid.  Is competent and ruthless enough to get it done.  Certainly not a moralist who will scoff at even her insanest and most blood thirsty demands.  And the fact he turned on Tyrion on her behest will work to his benefit.  In fact she'd get a kick over the fact that it would annoy Tyrion.

 

Nice spec, but I doubt it. Yes, he kinda turned on him, but that doesn't make him exactly trustworthy. Plus, he knows jack about politics, so his only use would be as a puppet. But if Cersei wants a puppet, she'd choose a more reliable one.

 

So as puppets, my candidate is Lancel. He's loyal to her, easy to control because he's pretty dumb and she'd have some Lannister for sexy time if she breaks up with Jamie. She detests Pycelle, but at least he'd be easy to control and loyal, so that's an alternative.

 

If she wants someone more astute in politics, she could turn to one of the new allies, namely Walder Frey and Roose Bolton. Bolton would be an ideal Hand for her situation, but he has a war to fight. If she promised him some military help however, he might leave the war to Ramsay and go to KL. Frey doesn't seem to be too busy right now, and the position would bring him a lot of prestige. So those are my other choices.

 

I agree that she'll try to break up the alliance with the Tyrells. If so, she'll need a new bride for Tommen. Bolton doesn't have a daughter, but Frey has them in abundance. If Tommen's a really lucky boy, he'll get the pretty one (I doubt the marriage with Edmure was consumed). So my spitball would be Frey as Hand and Roslyn (?) as new queen.

Of course, Tommen might take matters in his own hands and reign Cersei in before she does something stupid, if only because he has the hots for Maerg (who could blame him?).

[Haleth]

Whats interesting to me - is that Dany devoted herself to freeing the slaves, and they all referred to her as "Mother." But her dragons, whom she considered her "children" are now locked up....a little like slaves....

Or like dangerous wild animals.

[Haiti D]

I wanted to scream in frustration when Brienne and Arya and the Hound were all talking. No mention of Sansa? So, Arya and the Hound finally arrived at the Eyrie and just...turned around and left? They didn’t even stop to have a nice night of rest and good food? And silly Brienne for not having an actual plan. Assuming you found the girls, where WERE you planning on taking them? Seeing as Arya wasn’t running into her arms, you’d think Brienne would be smart and be all “well, if you won’t come with me, I’m coming with you. I promised your mother I’d look after you, so I’m joining the crew. Let’s go look for your sister, yeah?” I am very sad that I will not get to witness the travelling circus that would have been the Hound, Brienne, Arya and Podrick.

I've come to the slow realization that Brienne is not very bright. Yes she should have had a plan to bring Arya back. She's not a fast enough thinker to come up with a back up plan either if her first plan failed. Her physical talents have served her well but she's not a brain. The one piece of good info she got on this quest was due to sheer luck, ie Hot Pie telling her about Arry.

I also find it interesting that she is slowly developing a reputation, deserved or not, as a f***-up. People keep reminding her of her mistakes, she couldn't protect Renly, she couldn't protect Cat, she doesn't know how to curtsy, she let that farmer live, she got herself captured by Locke, etc. (Only Cersei was able to grudgingly thank her for bringing back Jamie). And now she's lost Arya, and will probably not find Sansa either if Sansa stays hidden in the Eyrie.

Poor Brienne. I do admire her doggedness, which is a trait she shares with the Hound.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Haiti D

[CeeBeeGee]

When that tree guy said Bran would fly

 

 

Bran, just pay a visit to your cousin Robin, he'll help you "fly."

 

 

a species that hasn't been around for 300 years

 

 

Dragons didn't die out 300 years ago, it was more recently than that.  300 years ago was when they helped the Targaryans conquer Westeros and over some 2-300 years they started getting smaller and smaller and dying out.  Viserys talks about it in his Season 1 sexposition speech in the bath with Doreah.  I can't remember when the last one was (before Dany hatched her eggs) but it was more recently than 300 years ago.

[Tippi]

I still can't get over the dragons getting chained up in the dark.  What an awful existence for them!  Why did it have to be in the dark?  That was a great scene though, and I loved the mournful background music. 

Edited June 18, 2014 by Tippi

[Starving Writer]

Doesn’t Melissandre need a bastard for one of her spells? She tried it with Gendry. Jon Snow is a bastard, so perhaps she figures he’ll do as a second attempt?

The Red Witch didn't need a bastard. She needed a person with king's blood, which Gendry had due to being King Robert's bastard.

Of course, if a certain fan theory is true, the Red Witch has plenty of reasons to be interested in Jon Snow too ...

Edited June 18, 2014 by Starving Writer

[jadiem]

Also, Tyrion's rescue is a complete deus ex machina. If it were that easy to save him, Jaime would not need to negotiate with Tywin in the first place.

 

Eh, it seems to me like Varys was more the brains behind this operation.  Prior to Ned's beheading, Ned says that Varys is capable of breaking him out of his cell, and Varys agrees but declines.  In fact, I think Varys uses a secret passage to visit Ned (it seems like he emerges from within Ned's cell), and they were also using passages for Tyrion's escape, though they didn't look particularly secret.  Oh, until Tyrion emerges from a trap door in his father's bedroom.  I guess Tyrion also knows about the passages from when he snuck his army outside the walls in the Battle of Blackwater?  This was the one part of the finale they didn't shoot very well IMO.  I had to carefully rewatch the episode to notice that Tyrion heads off down a different passage than the one Jaime points him towards.  Anyway, I see this as Varys's rescue operation.  He has a history of sneaking people in and out:  Illyrio, Tyrion, the wizard who castrated him, Shae (offered), Ned (not offered but acknowledged as capable).  He just has to want to do it.  And as the spy master he might have known that Tyrion wasn't really in danger until he unexpectedly requested trial by combat.  It didn't sound like Tywin came up with the idea of sending Tyrion to The Wall after hearing Jaime's offer, it sounded like he expected that outcome all along (including Jaime's offer).  Only when there was no hope left did Varys finally stick his neck out to help Tyrion, only to have Tyrion immediately put Varys in jeopardy by using the tunnels to murder Tywin.  Assuming Tywin has a guard posted, they'd have to guess that Tyrion must have used a secret entrance to get in, which points back to Varys as a conspirator.  I wonder if they'll still be friends when they get where they're going.  "The free cities" is what I heard Jaime say. 

[Philbert]

 

Stannis on the other hand...was last seen at the bank.  And he appeared on the opposite side of the wall, dressed inappropriately, with a massive army that didn't appear to have fought anything on their way to the wall (something is chasing the Wildlings, right? wouldn't Stannis have run into them chasing them down?).  It was visually cool, but definitely a little more out of place, imho.

 

 

Actually no. Stannis and his armada sailed from Braavos, which isn't really all that far south of the Wall and landed on the east coast of Westeros, next to where the wall begins. Then they force marched along the wall and took the Wildlings in the flank. The White Walkers and their Wights are hundreds of miles north of the wall (as far as we know) so Stannis wouldn't have run across them skirting the Wall.

[Taget]

That is my thought exactly! The Hound was still alive when we saw him last so he ain't dead dead. ---he just looks to be a gonner--- but he could still be saved! I will look forward to seeing him and Arya meet again in the future. Good times a comin'!

 

Since the show is about the zombie apocalypse that even goes for anyone who died but you haven't seen burned.  Everyone is liable to come back.  Ned may have his revenge yet!

[Independent George]

I'm going to handwave it, but the problem with Stannis' coordinated attack is a combination of transportation and communication. Transporting a few thousand horse by sea is difficult. Landing them on an arctic coast without a dock/pier is even more difficult. Then going a hundred miles on a forced march through heavily forested land is absurdly difficult. Then coordinating a simultaneous surprise attack on both flanks against an army with warg scouts should be close to impossible.

But, logistics is boring, so no film/TV show is ever going to bother spend time on the supply lines when they can show a cool battle sequence instead. (Want to know what the key to the Normany campaign was? Mulberry.). 

Edited June 18, 2014 by Independent George

[Hecate7]

I think Drogon was framed.

 

If you give someone three times what a goat costs, for every goat they lose, what will you give them for a daughter? I saw no water on that sobbing man's cheeks--I think he saw a chance to make more than he could make for burning a whole herd of goats, and took it. She's only a daughter. She was only 3. This doesn't look like a culture that's all that sentimental about little girls. For all we know, killing her and charring the body was a more lucrative option than selling her into slavery.

 

We've seen how Drogon hunts. He flies over the people and torches the goats when they've run past the humans. I think he's innocent. I KNOW the two dragons Danaerys chained up in the dark were innocent. Why in the hell not chain them in a courtyard in the sun, and visit and play with them? What a horrible thing to do to those innocent animals.

 

Not only that, it's a stupid strategy. The dragons keep her safe. They are a future military weapon, and they are her biggest claim to fame. Chaining them up is criminally stupid and she pretty much deserves whatever she gets after that.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Hecate7

[phoenix780]

Actually no. Stannis and his armada sailed from Braavos, which isn't really all that far south of the Wall and landed on the east coast of Westeros, next to where the wall begins. Then they force marched along the wall and took the Wildlings in the flank. The White Walkers and their Wights are hundreds of miles north of the wall (as far as we know) so Stannis wouldn't have run across them skirting the Wall.

Got it.  I clearly need a geography lesson. 

 

Given that...why wouldn't the Wildlings just try to flee the way that Stannis came?  Why run try to run over/through a giant wall when you can sort of run around (maybe you'd need boats and they can't build them?)?

 

Eh, I'm starting to overthink, I should just enjoy.

[Conan Troutman]

maybe you'd need boats and they can't build them?

 

That's what I'm thinking. Sure, there are trees, at least near the wall. But maybe not enough and I'd be surprised if they have any knowledge how to built them (or the tools). Or that they exist at all. Ygritte mistook a freaking windmill for a castle, so they're not exactly educated. Maybe Mance knew, but he could've just thought it'd be easier to just use brute force.

 

But even if it weren't plausible, we really shouldn't overthink it. Especially not in a genre like fantasy or sci-fi. There'll always be giant plot holes or at least unexplained stuff you just have to accept, so I'm going to do just that.

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Has anyone photoshopped the tunnels full of roots where Bran goes together with the tunnels full of branches from the end of True Detective?  Is the Three-Eyed Raven the King in Yellow?

Ha, you and Mr. EB would get along. As soon as they climbed into that tree, he said, "Is Rust Cohle in there?"

 

As for who will be the next Hand of the King, I think Jaime would still say he has no interest in that role. Cersei might be able to guilt trip him into accepting it now that they are being honest about Tommen being their son. I could see her manipulating Jaime into feeling that this is the most important way for him to protect his son and their family because he will have Tommen's best interests at heart more than Pycelle, Mace Tyrell, or anyone else in the kingdom (besides Cersei, of course). If Jaime agreed to it, I think it would be very reluctantly.

 

Of course, now that Jaime has freed Tyrion, will Cersei trust Jaime fully? Of course, she could use that as more ammunition to guilt Jaime into becoming Hand ("After you betrayed me by setting our first son's killer free, the least you could do is protect the only son we have left by advising him as he's obviously too young to make decisions about the kingdom on his own. Robert never taught him anything about becoming king and he was a terrible king anyway, so Tommen needs your guidance.")

 

Has their ever been a female Hand of the King? Would Cersei even want that position (as opposed to remaining Queen Regent)? I wonder if she will be able to dissuade Tommen from marrying Margaery. I was kind of looking forward to Cersei being forced to marry Loras (even if it did make me fear what she might do to Loras) but I guess that's definitely not happening now.

 

While I understand why Dany decided that her dragons need to be kept under control so they aren't seen as a liability by "her people," I disagree with her method. Shutting them up in the dark catacombs on very short chains is cruel. Doing that to any living creature that is used to sunlight and freedom of movement is just about the worst thing you can do to them. As several people pointed out upthread, she has made no effort whatsoever to train them or really be a mother to them. She has essentially given them free reign to do whatever they want, so it's not surprising that they are still very untamed. If she wants them to be assets and weapons, she needs to train them and discipline them and teach them what is acceptable behavior, just like any other child or animal. She has set no boundaries for their behavior which is why they do whatever they want. You can't let an animal run wild and then get upset when it acts like a wild animal. She just expected them to magically obey her despite giving them no instruction or feedback about what they do.

 

They are clearly capable of learning since she taught them to attack on command, and they have shown to be loyal to her (heh or you could call it being possessive of her) because they have gotten upset when people got in her face, so they would probably be trainable if she just put in the effort. I know she's busy conquering cities and freeing slaves and all, but it's really not fair to the dragons that she has let them run wild and now she's punishing them for that. When she eventually lets them out, they're going to be pretty pissed so she might lose them at that point. And as someone mentioned earlier, there are stories of the Targaryens riding dragons so they can be trained at least to that extent. I'm not saying she needs to teach them how to roll over or do tricks or anything, but she should be teaching them the basics like come to me, stay, chargrill that guy for me, and, most importantly, NO.

[Independent George]

Given that...why wouldn't the Wildlings just try to flee the way that Stannis came?  Why run try to run over/through a giant wall when you can sort of run around (maybe you'd need boats and they can't build them?)?

 

Mostly because they're subsistence-level hunter-gatherers, who don't have the tech or the infrastructure to build ships. They could probably build the occasional small boats or raft, but even then it's an extremely labor-intensive for something not likely to be truly seaworthy. The Inuit had small boats for seal hunting, but not open water exploration.

[applecrisp]

I really, really like the old Targarion from the Night's watch.  

[Nonlinear]

I think Dany stopped spending time and training her dragons becaue of CGI budget.

 

I did not buy the Tywin death. He would have heard Tyrion strangling Shae.

 

I really want to know what happened after Oberyn's death. Disappointed if that is just the end of that story.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Nonlinear

[Stardancer Supreme]

WRT the next Hand of the King, I really have no clue who it'll be. Jaime might get the nod ... he's never wanted it, but he might do it for family; Pycelle's out ... he's a doddering old fool and you need more than a bootlicker as your Hand; as for Mace, I have a feeling (I haven't read the books, so I don't know for sure) that Cersie's going to torch the alliance between the Lannisters and the Tyrelles, so that leaves him out as well.

 

Cersei is definitely going to torch the alliance with the Tyrells because she isn't going to let Tommen marry Margaery if she can help it.  Now the only way the Tyrells would have any staying power in King's Landing is for Tommen to defy her and marry Margaery anyway.  That would be awesome!  Cersei isn't smart enough to see that she really needs the Tyrells to prop up the Lannister's fortune since they are essentially broke.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I agree - Cersei has shown before that she doesn't always see the forest for the trees, plus we know she will do things out of spite even if it's not necessarily the best choice. A broke kingdom will not stay peaceful for long so she needs that Tyrell money. And not only are the Lannisters broke, which is one problem, but they are also in debt to the bank. They need the Tyrell money just to keep the kingdom running. If the bank ever tries to collect the huge debt, the Lannisters are really going to be screwed.

Edited June 18, 2014 by ElectricBoogaloo

[annsterg]

I can't help but think that Cersei's now open contempt for Pycelle and increasing reliance on Qyburn (sp?) are going to lead to Qyburn having a larger role in Kings Landing power networks. Since he's a defrocked Maester, not sure he can be Grand Maester? but Hand? or maybe take over Varys's role? Not that we've seen Qyburn have a spy network but he does seem to know a lot of stuff, AND is not troubled with morals or scruples in pursuit of his goals, which should make him a perfect match as Cersei's minion. Lord knows what he's doing with/to the Mountain...but it doesn't look good.

[Mya Stone]

MOD REMINDER: This thread is specifically NO BOOK TALK. That does not mean spoiler tag book talk. It means NO BOOK TALK. If you want to discuss the books, please go post in the Book Talk thread for the episode. 

 

[Philbert]

 

Given that...why wouldn't the Wildlings just try to flee the way that Stannis came?  Why run try to run over/through a giant wall when you can sort of run around (maybe you'd need boats and they can't build them?)?

 

While it's true that the wildlings have been slipping around the edges of the wall by boat for centuries, these are small boats and rafts, not heavy ships like Stannis has. Mance has 100,000 men, women, children, giants and mammoths to move. The latter two groups can't go by boat. Such a project would take shipbuilding capabilities the wildlings clearly don't have. Sure there is plenty of wood in the north but the Wildlings are tribal people, they simply don't have the vast shipyards that exist in cities like Braavos or in Westeros. Going over (or through as Mance wanted) the Wall is really the Wildlings only feasible course of action.

[Lady S.]

Mostly because they're subsistence-level hunter-gatherers, who don't have the tech or the infrastructure to build ships. They could probably build the occasional small boats or raft, but even then it's an extremely labor-intensive for something not likely to be truly seaworthy. The Inuit had small boats for seal hunting, but not open water exploration.

Yeah, I think expecting the wilding horde to build a real fleet, as opposed to whatever small boat or raft Osha and co. used to get South of the Wall, is a bigger logistical issue to me than Stannis's cavalry sailing from Braavos to the port at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea.

 

It's a failing of the show that we haven't seen any non-combatant wildings, but it's important to remember that Mance is leading a migration of all the free folk, and giants, and mammoths, and any other livestock they can raise in the far North. Mance may well have close to 100,000 following him but I'm guessing his actual army is the minority in his horde, like how Khal Drogo was said to have 100,000 in his horde but only 40,000 were Dothraki "screamers". Going through the tunnel, it'd be a long line for a tight fit, but they could bring more personal belongings to their new homes than by going over the Wall or the mountains west of it or crowding into flimsy seacraft.

 

There seems to be this idea that Mance can't be leading a mass of refugees along with an army, even though he's said repeatedly to be leading almost the entire wilding population and they can't possibly all be warriors. Does anyone really think Ser Alliser Thorne would have let the wildings through if Mance had made his offer before attacking? The Thenns' cannabalism is notable but displaced peoples killing innocents when fighting for land against a hostile population is not weird at all. Read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee and you'll find retaliatory crimes by the Indians against white civilians, it doesn't mean the whites were right in thinking of them as all savages. Or just read the Old Testament of the Bible, the Israelites' migration into Canaan has them enslaving, if not exterminating, peoples in their path and destroying every city they conquered. There's a whole episode in Joshua's battle for Jericho where two spies receive aid from a prostitute and promise to spare her and her family, because when Joshua did take Jericho he slaughtered every other man, woman, and child.

 

In other thoughts, I don't know that it's clear how close Tywin's privy was to his bedroom, there's just a quick cut to Tyrion turning a corner with the crossbow, like the earlier cut from Tyrion in the tunnels with Jaime to coming up through the trapdoor in Tywin's office for his little detour, maybe that corner he turned with the crossbow was at the end of a very long corridor.

[Philbert]

 

I'm going to handwave it, but the problem with Stannis' coordinated attack is a combination of transportation and communication. Transporting a few thousand horse by sea is difficult. Landing them on an arctic coast without a dock/pier is even more difficult. Then going a hundred miles on a forced march through heavily forested land is absurdly difficult. Then coordinating a simultaneous surprise attack on both flanks against an army with warg scouts should be close to impossible.

 

You're not wrong but we have to remember that Stannis is probably the best soldier in the realms right now, with the possible exception of Roose Bolton. He was also Robert's Master of Ships for over a decade and a half. He's also very clearly a meticulous planner with the money of the Iron Bank behind him. If anybody is going to pull this off, it's going to be him. What you say about the weather is true of course but we also need to remember that it's still technically summer out there, even in the North, so the bays and harbors won't be frozen over just yet. It is possible to land your ships and and army there but I agree the passage was likely rough. He probably lost a couple of doze ships and several hundred men doing it-but we've seen this play out before in 2.9 "Blackwater." Half his fleet blew up on the Blackwater and Stannis still jumped into a boat and yelled "Come with Me and take this city." A few hundred or even a thousand deaths aren't going to stop him from doing what he needs to do. As for the heavy forests surrounding the Wall, the Night's Watch does clear it back about a quarter of a mile or so on a regular basis all along the wall, to prevent the Wildlings from sneaking up on them. That has been shown throughout the series, where there is a clear area between the Wall and the rest of the North. So it would be rough going, but certainly possible to move his army along it.

[Philbert]

I did not buy the Tywin death. He would have heard Tyrion strangling Shae.

 

 

 

I don't see how. He wasn't in the next room. Clearly Tyrion had to move down a long corridor to find Tywin on the 'privy.' Those are also stone passageways. Tywin might not have heard Shae even if she had been screaming, and she wasn't.

[Drogo]

 

The Red Witch didn't need a bastard. She needed a person with king's blood, which Gendry had due to being King Robert's bastard.

Of course, if a certain fan theory is true, the Red Witch has plenty of reasons to be interested in Jon Snow too ...

 

Or... she may have just noticed his sparkling forlorn eyes and untamed black hair.

 

Because every once in a while I'd like to see Melisandre do something for Melisandre. 

Edited June 18, 2014 by Drogo

[Conan Troutman]

In other thoughts, I don't know that it's clear how close Tywin's privy was to his bedroom, there's just a quick cut to Tyrion turning a corner with the crossbow, like the earlier cut from Tyrion in the tunnels with Jaime to coming up through the trapdoor in Tywin's office for his little detour, maybe that corner he turned with the crossbow was at the end of a very long corridor.

 

I would guess that the privy is usually at the side of the tower hanging over the air, so that the fecies can just drop down and you don't have to clean it and it smells better. The private quarters of the Hand should be more central, so the Hand has a short way to the stairs and whatnot. So it would make total sense that there would be some distance and maybe even a couple of stairs, so Tywin couldn't hear Shae (who didn't even scream). Just because the show didn't waste time showing us Tyrion walking for a minute or two doesn't mean he didn't cover some distance.  

[NoWillToResist]

 

I think Cersei suspected that Jaime would help Tyrion and that's why she seduced Jaime.  She was trying to entice him to be loyal to her and abandon Tyrion.  When she said "I choose you" I thought there was an unspoken, "Choose me over Tyrion."

 

I was most taken with her repetition of “I don’t care”. Isn’t that what Jaime kept saying leading up to their questionable sex beside Joffrey’s corpse?

 

I think there's something wildly intriguing about the fact that Tyrion has killed Tywin...in essence, doing his hateful sister a massive favour. Wonder if that act will soften Cersei towards him at all? In Cersei's mind, the Imp will have killed her mother, father and son. Remarkably, I can't remember if Cersei actually believes that Tyrion killed Joffrrey, or if she simply wants him dead and this is a convenient, kinda legal way to make it happen.

 

I appreciated that Jaime scoffed at her comment that Tyrion "decided" kill their mother. That is some fucked up perspective right there. Good grief.

 

 

What was important with Gendry wasn't that he was a bastard but that he had the blood of a king

 

Hmm, well that just nicely adds to my personal speculation!

 

 

I really want to know what happened after Oberyn's death.

 

Good point. What did Ellaria do? Is she still in KL? Did she go back to Dorne?

Edited June 18, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Lady S.]

I was most taken with her repetition of “I don’t care”. Isn’t that what Jaime kept saying leading up to their questionable sex beside Joffrey’s corpse?

 

I think there's something wildly intriguing about the fact that Tyrion has killed Tywin...in essence, doing his hateful sister a massive favour. Wonder if that act will soften Cersei towards him at all? In Cersei's mind, the Imp will have killed her mother, father and son. Remarkably, I can't remember if Cersei actually believes that Tyrion killed Joffrrey, or if she simply wants him dead and this is a convenient, kinda legal way to make it happen.

 

I appreciated that Jaime scoffed at her comment that Tyrion "decided" kill their mother. That is some fucked up perspective right there. Good grief.

Yep, if the sept scene hadn't been so fucked up and was as mutually consenual as this one, I'd say the scenes worked as good counterpoints.

 

I don't see any reason to think Cersei doesn't believe Tyrion killed Joffrey. She saw something sinister in him "stealing" Myrcella and trying to involve Joffrey in the city's defense, and he did threaten to get her back someday. She told Jaime he'd kill them all if he could and just compared him to a disease. Standing near the wine goblet isn't great evidence, but Cersei's logic is particularly unsound when it comes to Tyrion. I can see Tywin sacrificing Tyrion to close the matter up, but I think Cersei would absolutely want to punish the real killer if she wasn't sure about who murdered her special boy.

 

Yeah, it's Tywin's fucked up perspective, and it's even worse coming from him since he was a grown-ass adult at the time of Tyrion's birth.

[CeeBeeGee]

I'm going to handwave it, but the problem with Stannis' coordinated attack is a combination of transportation and communication. Transporting a few thousand horse by sea is difficult. Landing them on an arctic coast without a dock/pier is even more difficult. Then going a hundred miles on a forced march through heavily forested land is absurdly difficult. Then coordinating a simultaneous surprise attack on both flanks against an army with warg scouts should be close to impossible.

 

Yeah, I was side-eyeing a whole mounted unit marching right into the trees--wouldn't that mess up your pretty, pretty formation?  And nullify the blunt impact and advantage that heavy(ish) cavalry has?  (I was grumbling a bit during last week's battle as well, some sloppy battle tactics there.)

 

 

I would guess that the privy is usually at the side of the tower hanging over the air, so that the fecies can just drop down and you don't have to clean it and it smells better.

 

 

Does Westeros have any kind of plumbing?

[Drogo]

 

I would guess that the privy is usually at the side of the tower hanging over the air, so that the fecies can just drop down and you don't have to clean it and it smells better.

 

Given Baelish's "some people die on their chamber pots" comment, I imagine there's a poop-pan underneath Tywin's bum inside that privy.  

 

If a poo were to be dropped directly, from the extreme altitude of the Tower of the Hand... couldn't it kill someone?  Like a penny off the Empire State Building? 

 

 

 

Died at dinner table:  Joffrey

Died in bed:  Shae

Died squatting over chamber pot:  Tywin

 

I see what you did there, Miss Cleo Littlefinger.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Drogo

[mascan42]

[CletusMusashi]

A golden poop certainly could do some damage if dropped.

But I don't think the Other Throne works by either plumbing or gravity.

I think it's a big giant catch-pot, because until told otherwise on the show I refuse to listen to all those book spoilers about Tywin not technically shitting gold.

1. It's been explained in the narrative, so until I see otherwise I take Tywin shitting gold just as seriously as I take Targaryans not being burnable or Priesty McWhatsisname being able to raise the dead. Shitting gold really is no more unusual than half the other stuff we accept.

2. He owns the only humongous poop-seat in Westeros. There must be some sinister pragmatic reason. I think it's to keep people from stealing his gold.

3. It's certainly not what The Hand ordinarily uses. Tyrion would have needed a stepladder to get on to that thing. The giant pot is only needed for Tywin.

4. Actual realistic gold mines would involve a whole staff. The mines being tapped out could not possibly be kept as big a secret as it is.

5. Sandor could very easily identify Lannister gold, and Hounds are, let's face it, quite noted for their sense of smell.

6. It explains why Jaime hates his shiny gold hand so much.

7. In Season 1 we were given a clear shot of Tywin's horse pooping regular poop. So obviously the show is not scatophobic. If they wanted to convince us that the rumors about Tywin were not true, they could have easily shown him pooping on the steps of the palace just like his horse did. Since they did not, conservation of narration makes it clear that what we have been told is true.

8. We know that there are strange experimental mad maesterists running around doing strange things to people's physiology. Tywin may well have had himself spliced with golden-goose DNA or something.

9. There also may have been some kind of demonic pact, which he entered to pay for all the toddler beauty contests that Cersei and Jaine wanted to enter. Tywin gained the ability to create gold within his body, but as a side effect everything that came out of his wife's body from then on would be... less valuable.

10. He was a great character, and I'm going to miss him a lot, and I'm drunk, and god damn it, I like saying "poop."

Oh, and also: Tywin Lannister is played by Charles Dance. Charles Dance was in "The Last Action Hero" without completely humiliating himself like every other actor did. If that's not pulling gold out of a chamber pot, I don't know what is.

[Taget]

Does Westeros have any kind of plumbing?

 

Yes it does.  If you remember from the season 3 finale when Tywin goes to the bathroom it ends up in front of poor Davos' front door.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Taget

[Hecate7]

I think Dany stopped spending time and training her dragons becaue of CGI budget.

 

I did not buy the Tywin death. He would have heard Tyrion strangling Shae.

 

I really want to know what happened after Oberyn's death. Disappointed if that is just the end of that story.

When ya gotta go, ya gotta go. Tywin probably did hear it, but wasn't sure what to think of it, and had to stay where he was.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Yeah, it's Tywin's fucked up perspective, and it's even worse coming from him since he was a grown-ass adult at the time of Tyrion's birth.

 

I'm left now to wonder about Tywin's hatred of Tyrion. I mean, he CLAIMS that it's because Tyrion is an imp and a whoremonger and drunkard etc. But Tyrion is smart and mostly decent and quite cleaned up his act recently but it didn't matter. Considering that Tywin recently stated, while staring at the business end of a crossbow, that Tyrion killed his mother, I can't help but wonder if...just maybe...Tywin loved his wife and didn't handle his grief quite so well (especially since she died giving birth to such an abomination in his eyes)? Is this why he didn't try to dissuade Cersei from her similarly stupid perspective?

 

If Tywin's wife had lived...would Tywin hate his son so much? Perhaps it all would have hinged on how the mother felt about her son...

Edited June 19, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[insubordination]

 

When ya gotta go, ya gotta go. Tywin probably did hear it, but wasn't sure what to think of it, and had to stay where he was.

 

Maybe he heard it, but had trouble giving a shit.

[Lady S.]

I'm left now to wonder about Tywin's hatred of Tyrion. I mean, he CLAIMS that it's because Tyrion is an imp and a whoremonger and drunkard etc. But Tyrion is smart and mostly decent and quite cleaned up his act recently but it didn't matter. Considering that Tywin recently stated, while staring at the business end of a crossbow, that Tyrion killed his mother, I can't help but wonder if...just maybe...Tywin loved his wife and didn't handle his grief quite so well (especially since she died giving birth to such an abomination in his eyes)? Is this why he didn't try to dissuade Cersei from her similarly stupid perspective?

If Tywin's wife had lived...would Tywin hate his son so much? Perhaps it all would have hinged on how the mother felt about her son...

Taking to the House Lannister thread.