The Buffy Characters We Can't Stand

[saki]

Tara.  It's mostly the actress who seemed to play the role as if she was stoned out of her mind or incredibly stupid.  She had no spark, no chemistry with anyone else.  Really boring.  But the writing was also not great for her - she's basically Willow but without Willow's flaws.  That's not very interesting.

 

Oddly, given that everyone else on this thread seems to go the other way, I disliked basically all the characters more on Angel than on Buffy.  I think because the show just seemed to me to be much more simplistic - it seemed to be about how Angel somehow could miraculously Save people and everyone who went over (Cordelia, Faith, Wesley, Darla) somehow had their flaws removed through being in Angel's presence.

[Dev F]

I think the biggest problems with Riley is that the writers never really had a bead on who the character was, even on the most basic, literal level. He's described variously as a college student, a graduate student, a civilian government "agent," a soldier, and a marine. The most significant thing the producers failed to nail down: is he primarily a scholar, who uses military techniques to further his studies, or is he primarily a soldier, who uses scholarly techniques in pursuit of military goals? He started out as more of the former, a diligent student of science who thinks demons and such can be explained through rational inquiry and doesn't believe in magic or understand the mystical dimension of Buffy's calling. But as Professor Walsh was killed off and replaced by a series of jingoistic lunkheads, he quickly metamorphosed into more of the latter, a good little soldier who's never been exposed to challenging ideas and is used to following orders without question.

 

It was an ill-conceived change, in my opinion, not just for the character but for the season as a whole. The reason the Initiative worked to begin with was because it was a perfect analogy for the world of a college freshman. You come from high school where you're a big fish in a small pond, but now you discover all these people who know more than you, and talk down to you, and seem to be better than you at all the things you thought you'd mastered. And the conflict is, can you find a place in this world that seems to be doing so swimmingly without you? And how do you hold on to the aspects of your old life that you think are important, even as your new friends and mentors dismiss them as quaint and insist that, oh, if you just thought them through more clearly, you'd realize how silly they are? That should've been the central conflict of the season: In the world of the Initiative, what value does the Slayer have? What does a girl guided by instinct and ancient knowledge have to offer someone guided by reason and innovation, and vice versa?

 

But season 4 ultimately made a hash of that question by turning the Initiative into a fundamentally irrational organization guided by blind machismo and an unthinking chain of command -- something that couldn't have less in common with the academic world the season originally set out to explore. Buffy triumphs not because she finds her place in this new world, but because she realizes that the new world is fundamentally empty and stupid and essentially overturns it by the end of her freshman year. No wonder the subsequent seasons didn't do much with the college setting; season 4 had already declared it irrelevant.

 

And that basically made Riley irrelevant as well. What does he have to offer Buffy, or the other characters, or us as viewers, if his entire worldview has already been dismissed as foolish and worthless?

Edited January 15, 2015 by Dev F

[Bitterswete]

I think because the show just seemed to me to be much more simplistic - it seemed to be about how Angel somehow could miraculously Save people and everyone who went over (Cordelia, Faith, Wesley, Darla) somehow had their flaws removed through being in Angel's presence.

 

I have to disagree. For one, it's interesting to see someone call Angel more simplistic because I always thought it was the opposite. Things felt more cut-and-dried on BtVS, and more complicated and gray on Angel.

 

And I think all of the characters you named remained flawed. However, they did change, and so their flaws changed. And maybe the flaws Angel explored were more subtle and harder to pin down than the flaws that got highlighted on BtVS. For example, Wesley lost most of the overt, almost cartoonish flaws he had on BtVS. However, equally big, but more realistic, flaws were brought to the surface on Angel. Like how he was always trying to prove himself, and show that he could be tough and make the "hard decisions," a flaw that bit him (and lots of other people) in the ass more than once.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Bitterswete

[Fat Elvis 007]

I don't think I have ever seen a more insightful critique of the failures of the Initiative storyline, Dev F. I initially really liked the "science v. magic," "masculinity v. femininity" themes of this season, but the older I get the more these elements feel simplistic and reductive. I didn't quite notice the shift you describe before, but now that I do it seems that if they had gone with their original direction (and maybe if the awesome Lindsay Crouse had stuck around?) the season would have felt both more coherent and more complex.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Fat Elvis 007

[Cobalt Stargazer]

And I think all of the characters you named remained flawed. However, they did change, and so their flaws changed. And maybe the flaws Angel explored were more subtle and harder to pin down than the flaws that got highlighted on BtVS. For example, Wesley lost most of the overt, almost cartoonish flaws he had on BtVS. However, equally big, but more realistic, flaws were brought to the surface on Angel. Like how he was always trying to prove himself, and show that he could be tough and make the "hard decisions," a flaw that bit him (and lots of other people) in the ass more than once.

 

The thing about that is, you could say the same thing about Angel as well. Almost every decision Angel makes affects those around him in pretty disastrous ways, particularly in the fourth season, and yet it never once seems to occur to him that if he wasn't trying to manage everything and everyone, things might have gone a lot easier. Particularly with Connor, since had he not been a passive-aggressive douche about the thing with Cordelia, it just might have caught his attention that something was not entirely right with her. And really, it's ironic, since it's very much like his earlier behavior towards Xander because he got to spend time with Buffy in the daylight. His pride was hurt and he was jealous, and because of that he once again* threw his son in the trash and missed the warning signs that Cordelia, who he supposedly loved, was very much not acting like herself.

 

*I don't care about the trip to the bottom of the ocean. Cordelia - the real Cordelia - tried to inject a note of sanity into things. She told Angel that if he wanted Holtz dead, then he should go ahead and kill him, but what he should not do is lie to Connor. But of course, Forehead always knows best, and if it ends in tears, then so what? He's going to do what he wants, and everyone just has to live with the consequences.

[Jack Shaftoe]

 

The most significant thing the producers failed to nail down: is he primarily a scholar, who uses military techniques to further his studies, or is he primarily a soldier, who uses scholarly techniques in pursuit of military goals? He started out as more of the former, a diligent student of science who thinks demons and such can be explained through rational inquiry and doesn't believe in magic or understand the mystical dimension of Buffy's calling. But as Professor Walsh was killed off and replaced by a series of jingoistic lunkheads, he quickly metamorphosed into more of the latter, a good little soldier who's never been exposed to challenging ideas and is used to following orders without question.

 

Very well put. The Initiative plotline had plenty of potential before turning into an incredibly simplistic "Slayer good, soldiers bad" narrative. Though, to be fair, it is hard to see any way to resolve it with Buffy and pals remaining relevant in the demon fighting effort. I mean, even a very incompetent government would still prefer not to leave the Hellmouth to a bunch of 20 year olds (and Giles). The issue of making the existence of supernatural creatures public knowledge was never tackled either, never mind this would most likely save more lives than any of Buffy's non-apocalypse preventing efforts.

[AndySmith]

Top 5 most annoying characters for me (in random order):

 

Kenndy

Warren

Andrew

Spike (season 6 and 7)

Jonathan

[Gulftastic]

Didn't mind Kennedy. I agree that she lacked any long lasting chemistry with Willow. I think the writers saw this too, as they soon split after the series ended (in the comics).

 

I dislike immensely Dark Willow. Not Vamp Willow, who was awesome, but Dark Willow. I just didn't like AH's performance. It didn't help that it was at the end of my least favourite season either,

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Ugh: WARREN.

[joelene]

I liked Dark Willow in Villains, when she was a no nonsense gogetter! It was her endless chatter in the last two episodes that was nothing but irritating.

[Moo]

Kennedy. I cannot stand her. It saddens me that she took up so much screentime in the last season. She was a whiny, bitchy, self-absorbed little twat. 

 

I used to detest Riley back in the day when I was a rabid (and I mean, r-a-b-i-d) BA and later BS shipper. But now, he's just so damn blah that I can't bring myself to get worked up about him. Blink and he's gone. And he did give us one of my favourite lines: "I'm cowboy guy!"

Edited March 9, 2015 by Moo

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I used to detest Riley back in the day when I was a rabid (and I mean, r-a-b-i-d) BA and later BS shipper. But now, he's just so damn blah that I can't bring myself to get worked up about him. Blink and he's gone. And he did give us one of my favourite lines: "I'm cowboy guy!"

 

I have nothing to add, really, but I am laughing uncontrollably at 'BS shipper' because of self-explanatory reasons.

[Jazzy24]

I have nothing to add, really, but I am laughing uncontrollably at 'BS shipper' because of self-explanatory reasons.

Lol!!

[amensisterfriend]

I've already whined about being among the few who dislike Faith and Anya (who I did like in S3, but not much beyond that!), but a few others: 

 

This is a really unpopular one, but I could never muster up any affection for Jenny Calendar. Every time I rewatch I really, truly try to like her, but I just find her cold, haughty and conceited. I found her mildly to moderately snotty more often than not (and not in an amusing way, a la Cordelia!), and she came across to me like she thought she was doing Giles a massive favor by deigning to date him. 

 

Glory. I think I get what they were going for, and she's actually in theory a character I'd really enjoy, but neither the actress nor the writing worked for me. 

 

Kennedy. Grrrr. Argh. In fact, we can go ahead and put a solid 95% of potentials on the list of characters I can happily do without! 

 

I go back and forth on Riley. I might have liked him if he had been something other than a significant other to Buffy, since IMO they had less than no romantic chemistry. I usually like the well-meaning, goodhearted characters who inevitably realize life is more complex than they'd imagined, but this is another case where the acting and writing fall short for me. 

 

Hank Summers. 

 

Forrest. 

 

Ben. *yawn* 

 

I could never claim to "hate" Willow, as the Willow of the first 1.5 seasons or so is one of my favorite TV characters ever, but both the character and Alyson Hannigan's breathy, overly cutesy, nasal depiction of her really grated on me. Oz/Willow was sweet at first, but it brought out the lamely smug "my boyfriend's in a BAND!" facet of Willow's character that didn't do her any favors, IMO :) 

 

I'm ambivalent about Dawn. She grew on me a bit, but I still can't claim to be a big fan of her or the way that her presence affected the show's other relationships and storylines. 

Edited March 13, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Kanner]

I guess I am one of those rare people who really didn't like Buffy. I could appreciate her kick butt fighting skills but as a person I couldn't stand her. She came off as always on her high horse and she thought she was better than the rest of them. I am glad they had her own up to that in an episode in the later seasons.

[AndySmith]

 

This is a really unpopular one, but I could never muster up any affection for Jenny Calendar

 

Why is that unpopular? I always got the impression Jenny wasn't beloved but she wasn't hated at the same time. Fandom seems divided on her.

[Bitterswete]

I used to detest Riley back in the day when I was a rabid (and I mean, r-a-b-i-d) BA and later BS shipper. But now, he's just so damn blah that I can't bring myself to get worked up about him.

 

Whenever someone mentions how boring Riley was, I remember that I didn't find Angel all that interesting on BtVS. There were interesting things about him. (He had the "different from the rest of the vampires/ghosts/trolls/whatever" thing and the "was once really evil" thing going for him, and those are pretty popular tropes.) And he made a good "accessory" to the B/A, forbidden-ish love story. (Another popular trope.) But Angel himself as a character didn't do much for me. In fact, I almost didn't watch Angel: The Series because I didn't think I could get into a show with a lead I found so uninteresting. (Luckily I gave the show a shot, and found him more interesting in the first ep of AtS I saw than I had throughout most of BtVS.) 

 

One of Riley's problem is that he didn't have much epic, romanticized, larger-than-life stuff going for him. He was just a regular guy with regular issues. Well, relatively speaking. Still, while he wasn't the most exciting character ever, I liked him well enough. 

 

Speaking of Buffy, I went through cycles with her. Sometimes I really liked and admired her character. Sometimes she got on my nerves. And, by the end of the show, she definitely qualified as a character I couldn't stand. But I can still like her in older eps, especially if I try not to remember the last two seasons.

[AndySmith]

Angel did get a bit more interesting when he got his own show. But God, I alternated between rolling my eyes and wanting a drink by the 50th time someone pointed out how he "is a champion!!!"

[kdm07]

Currently doing a re-watch and even a re-watch hasn't lessened my hatred for Xander which actually makes sense because I tend to not associate with people who have similar faults *shrug*

 

Warren. Ugh, Warren.

 

Oh and Spike once he got a soul and the nonsense that was his relationship with Buffy in S6.

[John Potts]

Since nobody's mentioned them, The Watcher's Council. Were they ever ay use? They supposedly are there to keep an eye (or, well "Watch") on the Slayer but couldn't they occasionally be actually useful? All they do is try to sack Giles and get replaced by somebody either incompetent (Wesley) or insane (Gwen Post). Then when hey actually might have a chance to do something useful all they do is get in the way (kidnapping "Baith" - and yes, I know that it is hard to accept that Buffy & Faith had swapped bodies, but it's the wold you operate in, so at least consider it as a possibility) or offer really unhelpful advice ("Glory is a God. By which we mean, insane and not as powerful as some of the other monsters you've faced before." - how about "Here's our file on her with her strengths and weaknesses"?). Probably the biggest mistake The First Evil mad was killing them off - they'd have been far more useful to him/her/it as random roadblocks to Buffy, particularly since Buffy usually hesitated to kill ordinary humans.

 

ETA: I didn't do it consciously, but EricJ beat me to this idea in one of the S7 threads.

Edited June 17, 2015 by John Potts

[CletusMusashi]

And they weren't even the only organization of that nature in England. I'd say that a witch coven that can easily reform uberpowerful supervillainesses over one course of summer camp is probably a pretty big player in the "Saves the World A Lot" games. Plus, whatever group Holtz worked for over on AtS seemed to also get things done better than the Watchers. Helpful tip: don't routinely murder your best fighters as soon as they're old enough to move out their parent's house. I assume that after he was out of the picture they continued to evolve into something along the lines of what the Initiative was originally meant to be.

A bunch of guys watching "Masterpiece Theatre" sums up the WC pretty well. Go back to Season 1 and look what a dork they turned Ripper into. He didn't get his mojo back until he moved to America and spent some time barely even hearing from them. And the less said about Wesley when he was with them, the better. Thank god Giles never got that crappy spinoff show.

[Bitterswete]

Since nobody's mentioned them, The Watcher's Council. Were they ever ay use? They supposedly are there to keep an eye (or, well "Watch") on the Slayer but couldn't they occasionally be actually useful? All they do is try to sack Giles and get replaced by somebody either incompetent (Wesley) or insane (Gwen Post).

 

A bunch of guys watching "Masterpiece Theatre" sums up the WC pretty well.

 

I wish they hadn't made the Watchers seem so incompetent, hide-bound, closed-minded, and various other unflattering things. Really, it seemed like the show painted the WC in a worse and worse light so they just looked so bad that of course you'd side with Buffy and the gang against them.

 

I think it would've been better (but maybe harder to write) if the WC had been portrayed as perfectly competent, and having logical, even understandable reasons for the things they did (beyond "it's tradition"), but they just went about things in a way Buffy and the gang (and the viewers) couldn't agree with. That would have made them more interesting, and made Buffy going against them when she did seem more interesting too because things wouldn't have been as cut and dried all of the time.

 

Instead, the WC just seemed to act like a bunch of assholes for the sake of being assholes. And to make the audience cheer whenever Buffy defied them. Because they were just so stupid and mean, who wouldn't defy them?

Edited July 4, 2015 by Bitterswete

[SarahPrtr]

On 16/06/2014 at 2:44 PM, Kalliste said:

In fact the only Buffy I do like is the bodyswap Buffy.
 

Because it was actually Faith! haha.  Although it felt more like how Buffy thinks she would be like when she's pretending to be Faith.

 

In Angel, when a ghost called Cordelia a bitch, she said "I'm a bitch. I'm not a snivelling little cry-Buffy."  Buffy was always going on about how she's alone and like she's SUCH an outsider.  I never believed it.  You had a maternal, normal mother who loved you and a watcher who also loved and cared about you like a daughter.  So, she had two proper adult-parent figures who were always there.  Plus a few very close friends who were also always there for you.  Cordelia may have been the more popular one, but people who are popular aren't necessarily liked. 

 

When Faith hit Wesley and he hit her back, she didn't whine and cry about it.  Faith is the one who had the hard life, not Buffy.  There are people who have just as many responsibilities and risk their lives for others who DON'T have superpowers.  No superhuman strength, speed and speedy physical recovery like her.  It would be like how Buffy was in 'Helpless' when she temporarily lost her physical powers and had to fight and protect herself like a regular person.  A normal person with responsibilities would have to keep going in that state. Every time she complained about how hard her life is, I was always rolling my eyes and saying "You don't know what having a hard life actually is.  You actually have a pretty good life."  None of the bad things that happened to her were actually slayer-specific.  They could happen to anyone.  Okay, it would've sucked to kill the love of your life to save the world, but you have everything else.

[Willowy]

Dawn

Kennedy

Maggie Walsh

Rona

Warren

I think that's about it, wait - Riley, but he was really pretty and had some decent scenes.

[Niki]

Anya is the absolute worst. The fact that she was on the show so long amazes me. Her annoying head gestures and vocal pitches were enough to drive me absolutely insane, but she was actually a total bitch and everyone just forgave that because she was newly human???? That makes no sense. Hey, I killed and tortured enumerable men as a vengeance demon, now I have no powers, not my choice by the way, so be nice to me as I acclimate to human life. So lame! To be fair, no one really liked her but Xander, so why keep her on so long? I do like her as an information source for all things demon but they should have made her charterer like 1000000x less annoying. One thing that stands out to me is when she is trying to get Dawn to choose the movie she wants to see, even though the night is supposed to be all about Dawn since they found out Joyce was OK after surgery, and she is SOOOOOO immature and whiny I could just punch her in the face. The immaturity alone, ICK!!! You're 2000 years old! You should be the most mature person on the planet.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Niki

[Delphi]

On 9/25/2017 at 6:28 PM, Niki said:

Hey, I killed and tortured enumerable men as a vengeance demon, now I have no powers, not my choice by the way, so be nice to me as I acclimate to human life.

Honestly by the end of the series all of the characters could have had True Crime specials about them.   Which makes their attitude towards Faith in season 7 really fucking hypocritical.   Hey she accidentally murdered one dude,  then did kill another,  but sure let's throw her under the bus but give Anya, Spike and Willow a pass because their actors are billed first. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

I loved Anya, I thought she was absolutely great as comic relief, though I still preferred Cordelia's bluntness over hers. However, the thing that always bothers me is that she is a completely different character once she is brought back in season four.

Anya was already retconned into a sort of clueless alien back in The Prom. It's really jarring. First, she is cunning manipulator then she knows nothing about the human ways?

I love Anya as comic relief but I hate her as a character. She was a mess of contradictions. The Scoobies' reactions to her made no sеnse. Her endless jokes about her days of bloody murders were only funny if one didn't take Anya seriously at all and basically treated the show as a sitcom when it came to her. Warren killed two women and the show treated him as the biggest creep that has ever crept, Anya murdered thousands of men (and probably thousands of women too as "collateral damage") but is presented as adorable and childish. No. Just no.

[Smad]

I always saw Anya's clueless act as just that...an act. When we first meet her she shows that she is cunning and can fit into any situation in order to get to her intended target. She quickly wormed her way into Harmony's group to get to Cordelia. If anything, Anya is an expert at human behavior. Which makes sense when one considers that she has lived for over 1000 years, traveled the world and been privy to all kinds of culture and different human societies. When she suddenly found herself powerless and without means the logical thing to do when you have that much carnage and blood on your hands, you play the dumb and clueless card if you don't want to live the life of a thug/criminal. If you don't then the good guys won't tolerate you or help you. Just pretend you don't understand humans and their ways and you have a shot.

[Hostile17]

I don't think I even need to say this since I think a lot of people agree, but Kennedy is in my opinion the worst Buffyverse character. She is annoying, bossy, and  is using Willow. Kennedy is also basically the polar opposite of Tara, who was perfect for Willow, so I don't think they are good together at all. Kennedy was too aggressive with Willow, and essentially told her what to do. I also feel like she became a main character in the seventh season for no reason. There was no reason that Kennedy should be any more important to the plot than any of the other potentials, but she ended up becoming another leader to them. I also think she was partially responsible for Buffy being kicked out of the house for a little while. To me, she also seemed really full of herself, and thought she was better than all of the other potentials. Honestly, I disliked a lot of the potentials, but Kennedy was the worst, especially her relationship with Willow. Overall, I think Kennedy was just annoying, arrogant, pointless, not good for Willow, and a forced Tara replacement.

[Delphi]

Quote

 I also think she was partially responsible for Buffy being kicked out of the house for a little while. 

While Kennedy is far from my favourite character,  in fact she bugs me most of the time.   Buffy is responsible for being kicked out of the house,  she leveled an ultimatum and then got a rude awakening when she was called on it.   Faith told her to take a nap and chill and Buffy refused to even consider it and threw a fit. 

[Sassyfangirl]

I can’t stand Xander he was annoying and I can’t stand spike or angel. 

[LJones41]

I dislike Angel.  I find him controlling and a little too moody for my tastes.  I'm especially peeved that he had enforced his will upon Buffy by sanctioning the Powers to Be to have her memories of their single day in Los Angeles together, erased.  He told her about a minute before Buffy lost her memories.  And she begged him to change his mind.  He refused to do so and she lost her memories.  Worse, she STILL has no idea what he had done to her.  Then three-and-a-half years later, Angel gave Wolfram & Hart permission to erase his friends' memories of his son Connor . . . without their permission.  When they finally learned what he had done, they quickly forgave him.  That really pissed me off.

[illdoc]

36 minutes ago, LJones41 said:

When they finally learned what he had done, they quickly forgave him.  That really pissed me off.

Technically, only Wesley knew what had happened, and given the "evil" he had done, he understood the altering. Only the people in the vicinity of the breaking of the Orlon Window were affected, so Gunn & Lorne still had their memories erased (and had no idea that they had been altered). Fred was dead at that point.

[Halting Hex]

On November 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Hostile17 said:

Kennedy is in my opinion the worst Buffyverse character. She is annoying, bossy, and is using Willow.

Really?  How, exactly?  We never see her cheating on Willow, or hatching any evil schemes behind Willow's back.  What evidence do you have for this slur?

On November 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Hostile17 said:

Kennedy is also basically the polar opposite of Tara

Sounding better by the minute…

On November 29, 2017 at 5:25 PM, Hostile17 said:

[Tara] was perfect for Willow

Oh, please.  Pull the other one…it bakes an empowering lemon bundt cake.

[Joe Hellandback]

Yeah, the essential thing about Kennedy was that she wasn't Tara, it would have been very easy for them to have cast a carbon copy replacement but they went in a different direction. Kennedy is a good character, she saves Faith and is the best leader amongst the potentials but I don't think people had time to warm to her. 

[lembergwatcher]

Why in the world was Kennedy supposed to be Tara's clone? Yes, her and Willow's "love story" was a plain joke and the way she "hit on" our beloved Wicca unnerved me, but I really can't understand why people dislike her that much. Just because she didn't nod in agreement with everything Buffy said? Hardly a case against her. In fact that makes her fall into the "positive" category on my list.
P.S.: Willow/Tara relationship was by no means flawless or perfect. It wasn't even closely as idyllic and sublime as Joss wanted all of us to believe. Therefore I can see no reasons why should Tara be perceived as the role model for Willow's every subsequent sweetheart.

Edited August 22, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[illdoc]

3 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

I really can't understand why people dislike her that much. Just because she didn't nod in agreement with everything Buffy said?

I think it's because she was too aggressive/pushy/bossy/etc. She acted as if she owned the place (and Willow), despite having been in town two minutes, and never even faced a vampire.

[lembergwatcher]

3 hours ago, illdoc said:

I think it's because she was too aggressive/pushy/bossy/etc. She acted as if she owned the place (and Willow), despite having been in town two minutes, and never even faced a vampire.

Yes she was. She could be very annoying sometimes - no doubt about it. But that didn't make her any different from the rest of the Scoobies, all of which let their "inner asshole" emerge time after time. If the fans easily turned a blind eye on most of Buffy's antics on account that she was, well, a teenager - then we can give Kennedy a pass for the same reason. She was a teenage girl, far from home, family and friends, in a new environment, constantly facing danger, scared. Her ostensible pensiveness might very well be a disguise for fear and helplesness considering her new experience. And then nobody expected her to face a vampire since technically speaking she was just a Potential, not a Slayer. She was immature, arrogant and insensitive on more than one occassion, but that did not make her a monster after all.  In fact Buffy's trash-talking dead Chloe alone looks more rude and disgusting to me than all of Kennedy's childish outbursts combined.

Edited August 22, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

9 minutes ago, nosleepforme said:

I love Willow and Tara, but watching it now, it is sometimes really scare how controlling Willow is of Tara and how she is even willing to erase Tara's memories so that she would fall in line with Willow.

Maybe an UO: true, Willow treated Tara horribly sometimes but she wasn't the only guilty party. Tara was no saint too. Erasing lover's memories was a despicable act, abandoning your lover when she went throuhg the worst time of her life was hardly a decent thing to do either.      

[Halting Hex]

33 minutes ago, nosleepforme said:

3.) essentially "raping" her body. And Willow did not just do it once, she did it twice.

"Rape" is a strong word to throw around casually.  Is there any evidence that Willow and Tara had sex after the first "Lethe's Bramble" spell?  It looks as though they just went to sleep. 

And there certainly was no sex after the Tabula Rasa spell, given that Tara breaks up with Willow the moment the spell is broken, and we can see that there's nothing more than a kiss in the episode.

Now you could argue that Tara was so honked off in All the Way that she would never, ever, ever had sex with Willow in Once More, With Spuffy had Willow not erased the memory of the fight.  But the fight was over, Tara hadn't stormed out, and it would hardly have been odd for a longterm couple to have resumed sexual relations a couple of days later, spell or no spell.  Heck, Xanya would have probably boinked that night, no matter how pissed they were at each other.  And Spike would have slammed Buffy up against the wall and called it foreplay.

I realize it's cheap to judge Willow by the "standards" of the demons infesting the rest of the show, but I don't think she intended anything more than a STFU and getting a good night's sleep.  Wrong? Yes. "Rape"?  Hell, no.

[lembergwatcher]

Here's the list of Buffy characters I can't stand:


Glory (Probably top of my "Most annoying Big Bads" list);

Adam (Second in my "Most annoying Big Bads" list);

Anya (They thought she was "funny", worth to be part of the SG and the best choice for Xander? Well, screw 'em all);

Caleb (Nowhere near as "bad" or "evil" as some people think);

Cordelia (Since watching the show for the first time I tried my best to fall in line and come to love her. Didn't succeed. She was much better character on Angel though);

Tony and Jessica Harris (Fortunately only one episode. Still wanna kill them both);
Oz (Not even remotely as "cool" as most in the fandom view him. Seeing Willow as a woman before anyone else could hardly places him above Xander. Not eating his girlfriend isn't a reason to consider him a hero either. Claims that he was somehow more "useful" to the SG are just ridiculous);
Dawn (Seasons 5 & 6, had her bad moments at the beginning of S.07, but then matured somehow); 

Buffy (Seasons 6 & 7, though there were earlier signs of upcoming badness);

Spike (Overrated to the point of hilarity. I would tolerate him much more if he didn't steal so much screen time, outshining more decent characters. One more "bad-guys-are-cool" cheesy type);

The Trio (Pathetic caricatures that made Andrew Borba look like a supervillain. The fact that they evaded retribution for the whole season is plain offensive);
Harmony (If the Trio needed a groupie, she could be the most obvious choice);

Maggie Walsh (The reasons are obvious I guess).

----------

Maybe I'll expand it later.

Edited August 22, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

19 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

Anya (They thought she was "funny", worth to be part of the SG and the best choice for Xander? Well, screw 'em all);

Fun fact:  at 58 episodes, even if you only start at The Harsh Light of Day and end at Hell's Bells, Xander/Anya is the longest-lasting relationship of the entire series.  Joss only knows why.

20 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

Cordelia (Since watching the show for the first time I tried my best to fall in line and come to love. Didn't succeed.

Feh.  More Cordy goodness for me, then.  (What, that's not how this works? Darn.)

21 minutes ago, lembergwatcher said:

The Trio (Pathetic caricatures that made Andrew Borba look like a supervillain. The fact that they evaded retribution for the whole season is plain offensive);

Well, not all of them.  Warren's time on the show ended rather abruptly. 

Spoiler

And yes, I know about the comics.  I just don't care.

[lembergwatcher]

1 hour ago, nosleepforme said:

Abandoning a partner when they're going through a hard time is awful, but then again, Willow ERASED Tara's mind, 1.) betraying her, 2.) attempting to control her, 3.) essentially "raping" her body. And Willow did not just do it once, she did it twice. Tara had no guarantee that Willow wouldn't try to do it again, so she decided to leave her, because she could not trust her anymore. I think Tara was pretty much the most loyal, most supportive and most devoted partner out of all the Scoobies in their relationships, so it's obvious she didn't make that decision lightly. And even after they broke up and she saw that Willow was really trying to get better, she immediately stood up for her in Older and Far Away. I think if someone is on such a self-destructive path as Willow was, you sometimes need to put yourself first and step away before your partner drags you down with them. So I don't actually think leaving Willow at that point was a bad decision on Tara's part.

Willow's spiraling out of control magic addiction didn't start from scratch. Her use of magic increased considerably since meeting Tara and became reckless over the years. Tara was the one who encouraged Willow to do more spells at the beginning. Now I'm not saying she was responsible for the whole mess, but she certainly helped her lover delve deeper into all things magic-related. Snapping at Willow or sending her deathly glares whenever the issue was raised is hardly the best thing to do. Also, as an experienced witch who practiced the whole since she was little, Tara should have known that abstaining from practicing witchcraft completely (as she insisted in Willow's case) wasn't a permanent solution since magic happened to be the part of Willow herself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the reasons Dark Willow came out to play was the fact that actual Willow succumbed to (her fmr. girlfriend's) pressure and stopped the spell-casting.

Edited August 23, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[lembergwatcher]

21 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, not all of them.  Warren's time on the show ended rather abruptly. 

Maybe I wasn't clear. I mean they escaped payback for far too many episodes in the season. If Buffy wasn't on the road to ruin, the Trio would meet its demise even before Sweet came to town. God, at least they spared us watchin' Jonathan, Warren and Andrew singing/dancing (though Adam Busch fronts some band as far as I know).

[lembergwatcher]

And speaking of characters we can't stand... How could I forget the one and only Parker Abrams? After the whole one night stand affair my initial desire was to have him bound, gagged and dragged into hell dimension where he'd be working in some demonic brothel, entertaining ugly horny demons in rather specific ways. Not that I have much regard for Buffy and her love life, but the guy was a real rat bastard...

Edited August 23, 2018 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

To be fair, I don't think you're supposed to like Parker, exactly.  That whole "poop-head" conversation was kind of a giveaway, I'm guessing.

[lembergwatcher]

Here's my top 5 of the most annoying Buffyverse female characters:

1. Anya Jenkins;
2. Glory;
3. Harmony Kendall;
4. Buffy Summers (seasons 6-7);
5. Darla.

[Joe Hellandback]

8 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Here's my top 5 of the most annoying Buffyverse female characters:

1. Anya Jenkins;
2. Glory;
3. Harmony Kendall;
4. Buffy Summers (seasons 6-7);
5. Darla.

No Rhona?

[lembergwatcher]

31 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

No Rhona?

I like Rhona. In terms of annoyance she was just a small fry compared to Anya, Harmony or Buffy, after all.

[lembergwatcher]

Here's my top 5 of the most annoying Buffyverse male characters:

1. Spike;
2. Andrew Wells;
3. Caleb;
4. Adam;
5. Daniel "Oz" Osbourne.