The Not So Merry...Supporting Cast

[BkWurm1]

I don't even care what he is but there definitely needs to be something. They made it sound like Alex would be a big love interest and by episode 5 'Thea would be wondering 'Roy who?' and I've not yet seen that at all. Plus I still can't see any chemistry between them. I'm just not sure what the point of him is tbh. 

Arrow excels at taking fantastic guest actors and completely wasting their abilities. Starting with Alex Kingston. From one off appearances (Jeri Ryan) to big reoccurring gigs (Summer Glau), they've dropped the ball so often that it baffles me why they usually even bother bringing in recognizable actors.  And then every once in a while we get Mama Smoak or Damien Darhk.  I wonder if doing an episode of Arrow comes with some kind of cache because I have been repeatedly amazed at the weak material well known actors show up to do.  

[dtissagirl]

 I wonder if doing an episode of Arrow comes with some kind of cache because I have been repeatedly amazed at the weak material well known actors show up to do.  

 

Getting noticed by Greg Berlanti might be it. Heh.

[kismet]

I assume the Jeri Ryan's & Rutina Wesley's knew they were only signing a contract for 1 episode, maybe with potential to come back in future so it's probably decent money for a few weeks of work at most. If it doesn't conflict with other projects, a gig is still a gig ~ and it might have good royalities. Plus overall even though the parts have been truncated, the writing is generally still good for a one on/one off guest role. And they have another project & perhaps genre to add to their resumes.

 

As for the Summer Glaus & Alex Kingstons, I do wonder what they told them the roles would be. Or what promises were made. Because those roles require more than just a few weeks to have some fun & earn some cash. And their roles were not only truncated but also underutilized most of the time. So it really does make me wonder what is in it for them. Then again, who knows how the role is being affected by their availability as well. So it might be a two-way street in terms of what happens to the character.

 

As for the guys that played DoucheDJ & Alex, both have recognizable faces and fans. I feel like they were sold one version of the character and then it underdeveloped into something else. Both of those roles seem like they were supposed to be these big important guest recurring roles and have honestly fizzled to nothing. I do wonder if its a combination of lack of chemistry and writing. Or if the casting is given too broad or narrow a set of guidelines to look for. Because I honestly cannot see who would sign up for that length of guest role to be a bland LI that just gets killed or written off to forgetsville. It's different if they were part of the typical Vancouver based actors where they could just rearrange their schedules. Then again a gig is a gig, and ARROW is a better paying gig I imagine than some other projects.

[statsgirl]

Don't forget, it also puts them/ keeps them on the convention circuit, as well as introducing new audiences to them.  How many twenty year olds remember Jeri Ryan from a show that was on 20 years ago?  For older women especially, roles of any kind other than mother are few and far between.

 

Summer Glau's pregnancy (her child was born January 2015) may have limited her availability on Arrow.

 

Getting noticed by Greg Berlanti might be it. Heh.

That may be the biggest reason yet.

[Morrigan2575]

Summer Glau's pregnancy (her child was born January 2015) may have limited her availability on Arrow.

Didn't we already concluded that's not possible? January 2015 they were filming 315/316, Summer Glau/Isabel Rochester was in S2. She would have gotten pregnant mid to late April of 2014 and she might have been pregnant when filming 221-223 but that's about it.

Isabel was missing 209-217, no way she was pregnant for those episodes.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[statsgirl]

Oops, you're right. I got my seasons mixed up.

 

But I still seem to remember that it was supposed to be her door that Oliver showed up at after the Family Dinner From Hell and instead they switched it to Sara because SG wasn't available.

[Morrigan2575]

Yes, because she was filming something else

[bijoux]

What was the dealwith Kevin Alejandro then? Because both their stories were stalled in the back portion of the second season.

I didn't know about them originally planning to hook Oliver up with Isabel again. I wonder if they would have gone with her and Robert being "soulmates" in that case.

[Guest]

Wait. So they wanted Oliver to hook-up with Isabel again after sleeping with Sara in 213? Am I understanding that right? Or did they want Oliver to be with Isabel in 213 instead of Sara?

 

As much as I didn't mind the O/S hook-up at all (and even understood why it happened) I could see why being with Isabel and then finding out she was working with Slade would be a big betrayal for Oliver. Shame they couldn't do that in the end.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Guest

[Password]

*snort* No Oliver was meant to hook up with Isabel not Sara. But of my gosh that would've been complicated.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Password

[Guest]

Sorry, I'm getting confused because the family dinner from hell happened after O/S hooked up!

[Password]

Now I can't stop imagining Oliver hooking up with Sara then Isabel after the dinner.

Oh dear.

[Guest]

Well, it's not exactly out of character for Oliver to do that. LMAO. I mean, technically he was sleeping with Sara at the same time he was pretty much falling in love with Felicity. 

 

But it does make more sense that they wanted him to hook-up with Isabel rather than Sara. That actually would have been better for Sara/Laurel too because they could have focused on repairing that relationship instead of Oliver choosing Sara over Laurel YET AGAIN. OMG so messy. Gross.

[Morrigan2575]

Sorry, I'm getting confused because the family dinner from hell happened after O/S hooked up!

I think it was AJK (not certain) that said the original plan was for Oliver to hook up with Isabel in 213 but Summer Glau landed another job and wasn't available for filming. So they had to switch the temp relationship from Isabel to Sara.

Personally I think Oliver/Isabel would have destroyed any interest in had in Olicity because Isabel was so damn horrible to Felicity in 202-206.

I do wonder if the whole Isabel hating Felicity and wanting to kill her was a leftover from the orignal idea of O/I? Maybe that's why they had no explanation for why Isabel hated Felicity.

[hogwash]

Was Isabel always supposed to be Ravager?

[Chaser]

Sometimes I feel like the only viewer who was expecting an Oliver and Sara hook-up. And while it didn't make sense in the 'Laurel is Oliver's OTL' way, it did make sense in the 'Oliver and Sara are so similar and they have both been through so much together' way. Both of them also have the 'It's the CW and everyone is so pretty'.

 

I got to go with Morrigan2575 in regards to Oliver and Isabel. For Oliver to willingly get involved with Isabel after how she treated Felicity in 2.06, would have tainted Olicity for me.

[Guest]

I agree, Oliver being with Sara instead of Isabel probably worked out better for the Olicity side of things but O/S didn't really give them much chance to repair Sara/Laurel. I just hate the sister swapping so damn much. It's just so gross. 

[Sakura12]

Well I guess SG getting a new job is why SA and CL were so confused at the Oliver and Sara hookup since previously they were playing them as friends and fellow survivors. Then had to scramble for reasons why they would hook up. It did make sense in a way because they were both so broken and damaged and were mostly just seeking comfort from another that understood their pain. I'm still of the mind (and I know others aren't) that neither of them were thinking long term in their relationship. They were just together because it was easy to be. When Oliver asked Sara to move in with him her reaction was "what are we doing? I'm not the one for you and you are not the one for me" and Oliver was thinking they both needed a place to stay, why not stay together. They already lived together in a crashed fuselage without showering for months. If you can live like that you'd have no problem being roommates. 

 

While the Oliver/Sara pairing hurt the Sara and Laurel relationship, it also added the last red peg in the Oliver/Laurel sinking ship. Isabel/Oliver would've hurt the Olicity pairing. And made Oliver look like a bigger dumbass for not realizing that Isabel was trying to take over his company. 

[Morrigan2575]

Was Isabel always supposed to be Ravager?

I have no idea. I know AJK said they weren't sure if Isabel was going to be good or evil. I also remember them saying something about possibly making Sara Ravager but I always took that as early planning before they decided to make her Canary.

[statsgirl]

I think the Arrow EPs really dodged a bullet with Summer Glau being unable to be back for 213+.  (I forgot it was at the end of 213 and not 214.)

It made the Oliver/Sara story richer (she wasn't just someone from the past who he was trying to make amends to) and it saved Olicity for them.

 

Personally I think Oliver/Isabel would have destroyed any interest in had in Olicity because Isabel was so damn horrible to Felicity in 202-206.

I do wonder if the whole Isabel hating Felicity and wanting to kill her was a leftover from the orignal idea of O/I? Maybe that's why they had no explanation for why Isabel hated Felicity.

MG said that Isabel hating Felicity was just one of those things where you took a dislike to a person, which makes me very glad they brought in WM to wrote motivation to MG's plot. I would have loved to have something along the lines of Isabel projecting blonde gatekeeper Felicity as similar to blonde wife Moira.

 

Even without the stupidity of trusting Isabel after she tried to take QC and fire the employees, Oliver hooking up with Isabel after the way she behaved to Felicity in 2x06 and Felicity telling him he deserved better would have convinced me that Felicity deserved someone better than Oliver.

 

MG and AK got lucky.

[tarotx]

It also gave the show an Arrow&Canary in a relationship&team up. It showed they have a past and connection. But also a very believable path to just friendship (that had to happen because of the sister swapping if for no other reason). Unlike with Laural. Imo. I really don't get why it wasn't enough for the comics. A First name really is that powerful in comics? Thea is Mia but oh well that's beating the dead horse again. I guess also bemoaning those that don't agree with me-opps >.< I will side out of this conversation now....

[kismet]

Sometimes I feel like the only viewer who was expecting an Oliver and Sara hook-up. And while it didn't make sense in the 'Laurel is Oliver's OTL' way, it did make sense in the 'Oliver and Sara are so similar and they have both been through so much together' way. Both of them also have the 'It's the CW and everyone is so pretty'.

 

I got to go with Morrigan2575 in regards to Oliver and Isabel. For Oliver to willingly get involved with Isabel after how she treated Felicity in 2.06, would have tainted Olicity for me.

I wasn't expecting a S/O hook-up. But I certainly wasn't shocked by it. For me it was perfectly in line with who the characters were. And it seemed like a very love the one your with couple or friends with benefits. I don't doubt the genuineness of their friendship or love, it just wasn't a romantic love.

 

As for I/O, I'm not sure it would have ruined O/F for me. Yes, she treated FS horribly & was very disparaging to her. So was every other FS & LL interaction before the whole light inside of you bs moment of s3. For me Isabel & LL treated FS with the same level of respect (or disrespect is the better word). Even the Huntress was not very nice to FS, thought definitely not as mean as LL or IR. I guess OQ being oblivious to dating vindictive bitches would not have surprised me. But it definitely would have been harder to have their break-up lead to the big ILU reveal. Because what could have IR said that would have knocked sense into him? Also if they had pursued the I/O relationship, I hope they would have dropped the Eskimo Brothers with his father. Its one thing to hook-up with Dad's ex-mistress accidentally. It's a whole other level of ew to have had an actual relationship with her, even is he was unaware.

 

It definitely would have ruined a big part of OQ for me, that he was so distracted by Little Ollie that he didn't recognize IR for trying to steal the company from underneath him both literally & figuratively. So I think I agree that TPTB dodged a bullet with SG not being available for them to do their original concepts. Somehow I wish the same could happen for some of their other plots/characters r/t OQ. I know they love to get a lot of mileage out of OQ being a dumbass, but when his skills is supposed to me his superpower and that includes strategic thinking & situational awareness, you can only ride that train so far before it just looks like poor writing.

[Primal Slayer]

People invested in Laurel/KC and wanted to see it followed through.

[Chaser]

See what followed through?

 

I think I missed something.

[Sakura12]

I still kind of wish they had kept Oliver and Sara as friends. They could've had them move in together as roommates since they both needed a place stay and they've already lived together on the island. They could've done the friends with benefits thing too. It would've kept with Oliver saying he couldn't be with someone he cared about. With Sara it would just be about sex and comfort from a fellow survivor not an actual relationship that they were trying to sell to us. 

 

It would not have changed much storywise. Laurel would still have gotten pissed off especially if they lived together. Well it might've not worked with the family dinner thing. Then again Oliver went because he cared about Sara and Felicity told him to go. It still could've happened and been as stupid as it was anyway. 

[kismet]

I feel like it didn't make that much a narrative snag to have them quasi-dating. There was only one episode, where OQ I think went a little overboard in his Slade is after you Sara. I think it was the episode where he burned his bridges with Bratva that I shook my head and went I think they are taking this little hook up a little far. And the whole moving in thing was a little of out nowhere. But it felt like no one was really invested in the relationship either from a writing or acting perspective that when they tried to get me to care about it for a plot point, I just wasn't biting.

 

But in the end, I think they did most of it just to check off the Arrow & Canary have a sexually based relationship with each other. Partners on the streets and in the sheets. They had to fulfill their version/vision of the comic canon checkbox. I will say I found the pairing far less interesting when they were involved. I enjoyed the dynamic of them as friends. After the lunge and the resulting ''relationship", I found their chemistry kind of disappeared. And then a lot of the episode stories & arcs themselves were boring. So between the lack of spark with SA/CL and the pushing of OTA dynamics to the background the show got a little lost and not as exciting to watch. Then again, those middle episodes of the season always seem to struggle.

[Morrigan2575]

MG said that Isabel hating Felicity was just one of those things where you took a dislike to a person, which makes me very glad they brought in WM to wrote motivation to MG's plot. I would have loved to have something along the lines of Isabel projecting blonde gatekeeper Felicity as similar to blonde wife Moira.

I know MG said that but, it's such a stupid thing...oh she just hated her, no big. That's why I wondered if it was a hold over. They originally planned to have O/I hook up and that would give Isabel a reason to hate Felicity (jealousy, distrust, etc). However, they were forced to trash the O/I hookup but, kept the Isabel hates Felicity because they liked the idea.

At least this way I can rationalize why it was in the episode rather than thinking these idiots had no reason for Isabel wanting so desperately to kill Felicity

[kismet]

I still love the SA headcanon explanation that IR was pissed at FS because he was less than attentive to her and perhaps a little distracted during their Russian Connection by FS. There was actually a really good fanfic that covered it as well. I'll see if I can find it later.

 

That is enough reason for me to believe the IR hated FS. So my headcannon is OQ accidentally let his attraction to FS slip out during his hook-up with IR. I'm guessing he said her name or referenced something that would link back to FS. That kinda of quasi rejection dismissal of IR has to burn.

[statsgirl]

As for I/O, I'm not sure it would have ruined O/F for me. Yes, she treated FS horribly & was very disparaging to her. So was every other FS & LL interaction before the whole light inside of you bs moment of s3. For me Isabel & LL treated FS with the same level of respect (or disrespect is the better word). Even the Huntress was not very nice to FS, thought definitely not as mean as LL or IR. I guess OQ being oblivious to dating vindictive bitches would not have surprised me. But it definitely would have been harder to have their break-up lead to the big ILU reveal. Because what could have IR said that would have knocked sense into him? Also if they had pursued the I/O relationship, I hope they would have dropped the Eskimo Brothers with his father. Its one thing to hook-up with Dad's ex-mistress accidentally. It's a whole other level of ew to have had an actual relationship with her, even is he was unaware.

I think the way Isabel treated Felicity was a quantum different than the other women.  Laurel pretty much ignored her and treated her like part of the furniture until s3 when she needed Felicity to do things for her.  The Huntress had an "I'm going to have to hurt you to get what I want, don't take it personally" vibe about her.

 

Isabel was different, she was the only one who actually worked with Felicity and over many months but also was the only one actively vindictive towards her.  There's no way she could have failed to know how professional Felicity was at work but she still treated her like she was only there because she was banging the boss and not good for anything else.  Isabel was the only character Felicity said about "please don't make me spend time with her" so that gives you an idea of how Isabel was treating her when we didn't see them.

 

I wouldn't have minded if Isabel had needled Oliver about banging the blonde in short skirts because he kind of deserved it given his reputation but carrying that over to Felicity really crossed the line for me.

 

I know MG said that but, it's such a stupid thing...oh she just hated her, no big. That's why I wondered if it was a hold over. They originally planned to have O/I hook up and that would give Isabel a reason to hate Felicity (jealousy, distrust, etc). However, they were forced to trash the O/I hookup but, kept the Isabel hates Felicity because they liked the idea.

Yes, I think they really liked the idea of Isabel hating Felicity (they had it with Moira to a lesser degree) but why would an O/I hook up cause Isabel to hate Felicity?  Wouldn't it make her dislike Felicity less since she would now have her own access to Oliver and wouldn't have to go through Felicity?

Edited December 19, 2015 by statsgirl

[kismet]

I think the way Isabel treated Felicity was a quantum different than the other women.  Laurel pretty much ignored her and treated her like part of the furniture until s3 when she needed Felicity to do things for her.  The Huntress had an "I'm going to have to hurt you to get what I want, don't take it personally" vibe about her.

 

Isabel was different, she was the only one who actually worked with Felicity and over many months but also was the only one actively vindictive towards her.  There's no way she could have failed to know how professional Felicity was at work but she still treated her like she was only there because she was banging the boss and not good for anything else.  Isabel was the only character Felicity said about "please don't make me spend time with her" so that gives you an idea of how Isabel was treating her when we didn't see them.

 

I wouldn't have minded if Isabel had needled Oliver about banging the blonde in short skirts because he kind of deserved it given his reputation but carrying that over to Felicity really crossed the line for me.

I just think the only reason you notice a difference is because the writers actually let the 2 females interact with each other. LL & Huntress were kept apart from FS for the most part. If they were given more opportunities to interact, I have no doubt we would have gotten the same level of cattiness & bitchiness, esp if they ever wanted to pursue a real L/O/F triangle. There's no ways LL claws would not have come out. It's like when she was drunk in Verdant and asked OQ to be his secretary and then made a IR level disparaging remark about FS. She might not have been as obvious about her meaness to FS as IR, but every interaction LL was given to say or make a facial expression about FS implied what she thought of the blonde. It was one of the reasons, I had such a hard time believing their "friendship" in s3. The only thing that kept it civil between those two was that LL spent most of s2 in LaLaLand.

 

Whereas almost every IR scene that included OQ in someway included FS. So there was more opportunity for her to be outwardly bitchy to FS. I feel like IR was misguided soul based upon her sob story in 206, but she became a harden cold-hearted mean spirited woman. It's just who she is. I think she treated everyone with meanness & disdain. Even in her wooing of OQ, she was mean. The only time you saw a crack was when she talked about her childhood in 206.

 

How she treated MQ was also without regard for their professional interactions. I feel like MQ was probably a very professional woman in the office, considering how her husband was rumored to behave. In fact, I saw how IR treated MQ very similar to how she treated FS. So in my estimation, that was just how IR treated women she felt were competition. And even if she only wanted to bed OQ out of some revenge plan - the fact that FS was competition or at least perceived competition must have affected her ego. I also think the audience has a more visceral response to it because we like FS, so IR treating her horribly gets at us more than if she treated a less liked character the same way (not saying MQ was less liked). Then again out of non-bad guys the only people IR really got to interact with were OQ, FS and a few scenes with MQ. I really wonder how she would have treated LL or SL.

Edited December 19, 2015 by kismet

[statsgirl]

There was a reason Isabel was disdainful of Moira, if her Robert backstory is to be believed.  Isabel was a golden girl in the field of business, with her MBA and her internship, not to mention her special relationship with Robert that she believed he would leave his family for.  Moira, on the other hand, was a newbie in business before the Gambit went down and she was forced to take over.  She was very young when she married and started having children (21 when Oliver was born according to the bio cards) and it's doubtful she would have gone to university and business school after that.  Yes, she sat on various committees for various charitable organizations but Isabel would have looked down on those with disdain.

 

With respect to Felicity, exiting Oliver's hotel room with her dress falling off and telling Felicity she could take the night off because Oliver's needs had been taken care of seems to me a whole other level than Laurel's drunken "fire her and hire me".

[Morrigan2575]

Yes, I think they really liked the idea of Isabel hating Felicity (they had it with Moira to a lesser degree) but why would an O/I hook up cause Isabel to hate Felicity? Wouldn't it make her dislike Felicity less since she would now have her own access to Oliver and wouldn't have to go through Felicity?

since I have no idea what their orignal plan was with Isabel this is just total spec of ways/reasons they could get to the end goal of Isabel hating Felicity.

Isabel is one of the good guys, not working for Slade and doesn't know Oliver is the Arrow. She's upset that Oliver spends so much time with Felicity. How they keep secrets and how Oliver seems to trust/listen to Felicity more than Isabel. This leads to her being corrupted by Slade and then when she dies/gets Mirakuru her insanity manifests as absolute hated for Felicity.

Isabel is evil and working for Slade (all along) and had the affair with Robert. She hooks up with Oliver trying to destroy him but ends up having feelings for him. In the end Oliver chooses Felicity/Team Arrow over Isabel which reminds Isabel of Robert picking his family over her. When she gets Mirakuru she goes insane and focuses her hatred on Felicity because Moira is dead and Oliver like Robert picked his Family over Isabel.

Of course this is all pure guess work. But it could explain why Felicity dropped off Oliver's map after 413. Yes, there was the gotcha switch but, could also be because her role in the original plan didn't work when they changed to O/S, so they just pushed her into the background until they were back at the final act and then picked up with the original Isabel/Felicity plan.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Sakura12]

I don't think Felicity was forgotten in the O/S arc, Oliver was still in love with Felicity but though he couldn't be with her for his own stupid reasons. Then I think he got caught up in having Sara back for the third time and being able to go out and fight with her. Then I think the EP's got excited to have two actors that can do their own fight scenes and fulfill their Black Canary/Green Arrow team up. 

 

I was happy that they didn't go with animosity and jealousy with Felicity and Sara since they already established them as friendly and neither of the characters would've reacted that way towards each other. They showed us that Sara despite being an assassin is a caring person and was pretty much the only that noticed that Felicity was feeling left out. Then I think she realized that Oliver and Felicity were in love with each other and broke up with Oliver. I wish we had gotten her reaction to them dating. She probably would've been

 

Sara: "What took you so long?"

Oliver: "You died"

Sara: "I die all the time, Oliver. Not an excuse!"

[kismet]

I missed seeing more of OTA when O/S were together for whatever reasons they were pushed to the background. It's hard to really pinpoint a specific reason why there needed to be less of OTA from a writing perspective except to say that the writing was all over the place plotwise and was trying to accomplish a lot. I feel like it also had a lot to do with how they envisioned Slade coming back to town. To make it personal, I think the writers wanted a lot of Slade/OQ/SL/Shado to drive home the whole betrayed lover's quadrangle death and OQ being  "responsible" for Shado's death by choosing SL. So they gave us a lot of O/S in fb and in present day, which got to be a little much. But I feel like it was more connected to how they were writing Slade's arc. Which is why Slade revenging OQ over "killing" Shado to me made for a weaker story. Manu still delivered an amazing performance, but the overall revenge plot was a little soapy and sloppy from a writing perspective.

 

But the one thing I was happy about with the O/S relationship is that it never pitted SL against FS. It never made them less friendly or more hostile with each other. It could have gotten cliched girl v. girl prettily quickly. I credit the writing and the acting, because both EBR & CL never threw each other the standard catty looks that often happen between the females in tv groupings that contain a will they/won't they pairing. Seeing them be supportive of each other was a nice change of pace. Which is also why I think FS's propping of LL in s3 crashed and burned so hard, because she put SL down to raise up LL and that just didn't feel genuine to the S/F relationship we saw in s2 or the character of FS.

 

Even O/S break-up was not specifically about FS. Yes, it was heavily implied that FS was perhaps a big reason with the whole light conversation. But I think it was also about SL realizing a lot about herself and moving away from a relationship that was not giving her what she needed. I felt sorry for SL, but it also felt empowering that she would walk away from OQ, rather than stick around hoping they/he would become something/someone else - which I think showed character growth from who she was before the island sneaking around with OQ and hoping that he would choose her. In the end, the O/S relationship & break-up felt a lot more authentic to the characters and helped them each grow in certain ways. In contrast to the RP/FS break up when RP literally realized that he was just a placeholder and was forced to bow out as gentlemanly as possible. RP/FS break up was all about OQ and accomplished almost no character growth for either character.

[hogwash]

OTA getting sidelined was annoying since the best run of episodes the show had was when OTA started mesh and forum in S01's second half and S02's first half. But I liked all versions of the Island trio so I wasn't mad about OTA losing focus. At first. I loved the idea of Shado and the horrible circumstances of her murder haunting Slade, Oliver and Sara in the present while Shado's murder and Slade going bonkers on Mirakuru thoroughly destroyed this little group in the flashbacks. I think that's what they were going for... The execution was so bad.

 

Slade was hyper-focused on Oliver. Shado got fridged and ignored. Slade only went after Sara as an extension of Oliver even though Sara was a part of it too! On that note, Sara was everywhere in 2B but she was better used in the first half of the season. They could have given her survivor's guilt or something to make her more involved in the situation or had Slade go after Laurel because of her AND Oliver. Anything besides Oliver's boring "I can't lose you again" stuff that was barely even about her. Slade's feelings for Shado and everyone insisting that Oliver choose Sara over Shado didn't work. I have eyes and a brain. No one bought that Slade was in love with Shado. But I could believe that Oliver thought he choose Sara over Shado since leaping in front of Sara was a split second decision during a traumatic and chaotic situation. But Sara and Ivo?? A personal villian was great idea after Merlyn but it was way too much.

 

After that and Ra's, I'm glad Darhk only sees Oliver Queen and the Green Arrow as an annoyance. Darhk has his own crap going on. He might to try to kill the GA whenever they cross paths but he's not that invested. He cares a little more about Oliver Queen but he barely gets involved and just sends goons or a drone to handle him. It works so much better. 

Edited December 19, 2015 by hogwash

[statsgirl]

But the one thing I was happy about with the O/S relationship is that it never pitted SL against FS. It never made them less friendly or more hostile with each other. It could have gotten cliched girl v. girl prettily quickly. I credit the writing and the acting, because both EBR & CL never threw each other the standard catty looks that often happen between the females in tv groupings that contain a will they/won't they pairing. Seeing them be supportive of each other was a nice change of pace. Which is also why I think FS's propping of LL in s3 crashed and burned so hard, because she put SL down to raise up LL and that just didn't feel genuine to the S/F relationship we saw in s2 or the character of FS.

There wasn't much I liked about those episodes but the fact that Sara and Felicity became friends and each others' support was great.  I agree that Felicity putting down Sara to prop Laurel was one reason those scenes crashed and burned; another was that they hadn't bothered to build up any kind of supportive relationship from Laurel towards Felicity, the first moment Laurel was nice to her was in 3x10 when she told her, Diggle and Roy that Oliver had come back from the dead before whereas with Sara, it was a give and take from their first meeting.

 

since I have no idea what their orignal plan was with Isabel this is just total spec of ways/reasons they could get to the end goal of Isabel hating Felicity.

Isabel is one of the good guys, not working for Slade and doesn't know Oliver is the Arrow. She's upset that Oliver spends so much time with Felicity. How they keep secrets and how Oliver seems to trust/listen to Felicity more than Isabel. This leads to her being corrupted by Slade and then when she dies/gets Mirakuru her insanity manifests as absolute hated for Felicity.

Isabel is evil and working for Slade (all along) and had the affair with Robert. She hooks up with Oliver trying to destroy him but ends up having feelings for him. In the end Oliver chooses Felicity/Team Arrow over Isabel which reminds Isabel of Robert picking his family over her. When she gets Mirakuru she goes insane and focuses her hatred on Felicity because Moira is dead and Oliver like Robert picked his Family over Isabel.

Maybe I've been watching too many Christmas movies but the trope there is that when the girlfriend/fiancee becomes jealous of the secretary/old friend/personal shopper of the guy, it's a signal that she's not good enough for him.  If Isabel was a good person, why would she be jealous of Oliver spending time with his EA?  It's work, and she would presumably have his heart.

 

The Evil Isabel scenario is the one MG should have gone with.

 

I think Felicity dropped off Oliver's map after 213 to set up the shocking switch in the finale, and also because there was so much going on with Oliver/Sara/Slade in the present and the flashbacks that there really wasn't time for Felicity as there wasn't much time for Diggle. It was just more noticeable with Felicity because it happened right after Oliver told Felicity she wasn't going to lose him, and then she did.

[looptab]

 Slade's feelings for Shado and everyone insisting that Oliver choose Sara over Shado didn't work. I have eyes and a brain. No one bought that Slade was in love with Shado. But I could believe that Oliver thought he choose Sara over Shado since leaping in front of Sara was a split second decision during a traumatic and chaotic situation. But Sara and Ivo?? 

Well, I did buy that Slade was in love with Shado :) But Oliver presumably choosing Sara over Shado is in the same camp of Oliver presumably being in an impossible position wrt BM and her ultimatum, i.e. basing whole plots on dumb and idiotic premises. Bottom line is, these writers and I don't share the same logic.

[tv echo]

I remember being annoyed when S2 turned into the Oliver & Sara Show both in present day and in flashbacks.

[tarotx]

For a while I felt they were switching female leads from Laurel to Sara and I was mostly happy. Though not with Felicity and Diggle lack of screen time. Then the nagging feeling Sara was being set up to be a huge death came back. But I think she was being used as a place holder to transition from Laurel to Felicity being the female lead and as a big death (though Oddly a summer break away from when I thought it would happen). 

 

I once read a fan fiction that had Slade kill Laurel (instead of Moira). He felt he killed Oliver's love. Then he found out Sara was alive and dating Oliver. It made him very mad. He went out of his way to try and kill Sara. A lot of innocent lives were killed just to try and kill Oliver's love. And they had the story mostly end like season 2 ended-with the Sara&Oliver break up and the surprise I love you to Felicity. They were dealing with Laurel's death through out. But Roy went insane beating and choking Thea, Malcolm kills Roy and takes off with a very injured Thea. He turns up at Nanda Pabat. It wasn't the best written but I like some of the concepts. And Moira was alive. I was just thinking about Moira made me remember this fan fic. Thinking about Moira dealing with Thea's Blood lust just makes me bitter.

Edited December 20, 2015 by tarotx

[bijoux]

Well, I did buy that Slade was in love with Shado :) But Oliver presumably choosing Sara over Shado is in the same camp of Oliver presumably being in an impossible position wrt BM and her ultimatum, i.e. basing whole plots on dumb and idiotic premises. Bottom line is, these writers and I don't share the same logic.

I bought Slade being in love with Shado, too. And before she was killed, he actually did really well on the unrequited love front. He never seemed to blame either her or Oliver for his feelings not being returned.

[Sakura12]

The Slade/Shado thing was confusing since some of you bought it and others like me didn't and according to Manu he was playing it like Slade liked Sara. I don't think anyone knew what was going on with that storyline. The EP's just needed a reason for Slade to hate Oliver so they went the clichéd lost love route.

[kismet]

I never really bought that Shado would have sex with OQ and that it would mean something to either of them. To me that felt like it was done purely for PLOT, it felt very contrived. I'm not saying OQ didn't love Shado. But for me he loved Shado in the same way he loved Tommy or Sara. For Shado & Sara, it was deep friendship mixed with physical attraction & loneliness.

 

I bought that Slade could have had unrequited love towards Shado. I could see it in how he acted around her. Especially in s2, when the narrative revealed itself. I feel like Manu doubled down in his acting, that perhaps you could retroactively put some longing and unrequited love into his previous interactions with Shado. And I could see how the Mirakuru messed with his brain and twisted the reality.

 

Personally what would have worked better for me as Slade's revenge would have been if he had SL & LL in the same situation as the Queens. He then could have had forced OQ to choose between the sisters. Which honestly would have resolved one of the triangles that started the show. It also could have kick started LL becoming BC out of guilt & responsibility to her sister. And most importantly, it would have spared the show losing MQ & perhaps some of the stupid of s3. They still could have set-up FS being kidnapped, but perhaps making OQ watch the murdering of his old & new family as the final part of his plan. And then FS kicks ass with a syringe.

[bijoux]

Well, I'm not really sure why two women Oliver loved were supposed to die to be honest. According to Slade, he lost Shado because of Oliver. But that was it. So was it like a morbid game of poker, I call one loved woman and raise you another? It's not the eye either, because Slade announced he would put an arrow through Oliver's eye once the second woman dies.

[hogwash]

Guess I shouldn't have said no one. But it is a pretty big issue. His love for Shado was supposed to be the reason he fixated on her after Mirakuru addled his brains. So if you don't buy that he was in love with her, the whole thing falls apart. It's not surprising that there's a general consensus that Slade was a good and intimidating villian despite his horrible motivation.

Shado got fridged for this crap. I was excited at the prospect of her showing up in Starling. What's her secret twin up to? Come to Starling, secret twin!

[way2interested]

I bought Slade being in love with Shado, too. And before she was killed, he actually did really well on the unrequited love front. He never seemed to blame either her or Oliver for his feelings not being returned.

I just figured that he loved her in an isolated way. Like, "she's the only other woman here, and she's smart, pretty, and physically capable," not to mention the fact that she was extremely loyal to him and Oliver and nursed him back to health. "Love" was a rather strong way of putting it, since I didn't picture him declaring his love her for on the island or anything, but I think he had strong feelings for her and really cared about her, like in the same way he was able to call Oliver his brother after everything they've been through. I think the show went a bit too far in having Slade's complete motivation be based on Shado's death, when it could have been based on a number of factors collectively rather than just based on one event that wasn't even Oliver's fault.

 

Side note, one thing that I did love about the s1-s2 flashbacks were the subtle parallels between the island team and Team Arrow with Oliver-Slade-Shado and Oliver-Diggle-Felicity, especially when both Shado and Felicity coming to the teams around the same time. Part of me always wanted Slade's revenge to based more on the idea that he couldn't trust Oliver and that trusting in Oliver led to more suffering in his life (he's only still on the island because of Oliver, he's in this mess with Yao-Fei because of Oliver, he had to kill his once good friend because of Oliver, Oliver "supposedly" let Shado died, Oliver allowed Slade to have the mirakuru, Oliver kept the details of Shado's death a secret, etc.), and that his revenge on Oliver would be more focused on destroying Oliver because Oliver believed that he could still have a trusting team. I don't know, I just always found it strange that none of Slade's plans or destruction ever directly involved Diggle or Felicity (not counting 223, because that was Oliver's plan), especially when those two were the people who knew him the most and even fairly resembled the team that Oliver had on the island. 

[kismet]

I love secret twin... and people try to say this show is not a soap opera. HA, HA. :) Long lost love children, secret twins, paternity switches, love triangles amongst friends, girl falls in love with bad boy and villains with weak motivation. This show has always had it's soapy roots.

[KirkB]

Was Isabel always supposed to be Ravager?

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but back in the day didn't they say the original plan was to have Sara be the Ravager? And then for some reason they made her the Canary and Isabel the Ravager.

Edited December 30, 2015 by KirkB

[Delphi]

The original plan, I believe, was that we weren't supposed to know who was going to be the bad guy so they left hints pointing to either Sara or Isabel being the bad one and somewhere along the way they decided that Sara shouldn't come back as evil and decided to make her the Black Canary instead.

[Morrigan2575]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but back in the day didn't they say the original plan was to have Sara be the Ravager? And then for some reason they made her the Canary and Isabel the Ravager.

They said they originally planned to make Sara Ravager. Some people think this means Sara was going to turn into Ravager by end of S2. I've never bought this. I believe Sara as Ravager was something tossed around when they first thought of bringing Sara back in S2. According to them Sara being alive and coming back (at some point) was talked about when writing the pilot.

Unless they've said something more specific (that I'm not aware of), I've always thought they meant that in early discussions they thought about Sara coming back as Ravager but when they plotted out S2 Sara was written as Canary. After introducing Sara as Canary there was no intention to make her Ravager.

AJK said they didn't know if Isabel was going to be good or evil and that's their explanation for why the character was dropped from 209-217. At least that was his explanation in S2.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Starfish35]

^^^ this is how I remember it also.