Felicity Smoak: Bitch With Wifi

[Ang]

Sorry, I don't know how to quote from my phone, but I wanted to respond to what @lion10 said:

"... soured for me what was previously such a beautiful reunion scene. ... But I don't get Oliver's angst. He's the Arrow regardless. It's not like him being the Arrow puts her in any more danger than being part of his team does. Why doesn't he date Felicity?"

It's so funny to me how differently people can see the same scene. I was very surprised to see the reunion described as beautiful; I thought it was just sad from the beginning. She's all set for the reunion the (we?) Olicity shippers we anticipating: Oliver told her, for the first time in a straightforward way, that he loves her. Surely, when he comes back, he'll be so happy to see her! And yet when, after several hours of being back in town, he finally sees the "woman he loves," he merely tolerates her too-tight embrace, says that HE's fine, and, same-old same-old, looks past her to talk to the guys about business. OUCH. You can just barely see in the background how quickly crestfallen Felicity looks.

What has finally hit home for me is that Oliver's angst isn't about Felicity or her safety; it's for himself. He's worried HE'll be distracted by her; even in his dream, HE's the one facing death. I have more to say about this (so many bottled opinions...) that I'll save for the relationships thread. I do want to say, though, that I think Felicity is being judged as if she were Oliver's established girlfriend; as if they were in a committed relationship. Her behavior is a lot more palatable when you realize how thoroughly they were not.

Also, I want to come out as being in favor of Felicity dating Ray (again, more to say int he relationships thread), if she wants to. I'm ok with her changing her mind and holding out for Oliver, despite my reservations about his character. Heck, if she wants to start making out with Roy when it's slow in the foundry, more power to her. She is a grown woman and they need to stop infantilizing her.

However, what I dearly want to see for her is, well, first a return of the intense, fearless, quippy, practical, and real woman that drew me into this show. Then, after the next season or two of Raylicity and whatever shadow of Olicity they actually, finally, give us (I'm guessing we'll be lucky to see them together for more than three episodes, if at all), I want her to think, "Save the city? Groovy. You idiots stay here in your little costumes fighting your eeeeevil villains; Ima go actually save this place." Still helping out with whatever "heroes" are currently baiting the rats, she starts up a company positioned in the Glades, provides consulting to various local government entities (coughSCPcough), builds up various community outreach programs targeting underprivileged youth, particularly girls, that provide them with a doorway into the tech industry, eventually gets into politics by supporting worthy, capable candidates, etc. etc. and by the time the series is over, she's outgrown the superhero nonsense and Star City is a bastion of growth, safety, and progressive equality and prosperity, with her as the power behind the throne. She has a moment of nostalgic affection with Oliver in which SHE gets to be the slightly condescending one, and then Green Arrow and Black Canary can pat each other on the backs for a job well done and ride off into the sunset toward Seattle with Oliver in complete denial that Laurel's actually a consolation prize.

[lion10]

As far as the male/female deaths. Robert Queen was in one episode alive, we never saw Michael Stanton (Helena's fiancé} so I don't count them. Yao Fei, Tommy, and Blood all got to die a heroes death; Yao Fei died after giving into Fryers to save Shado, Tommy died saving Laurel, Blood died because he stole the cure for Oliver, I'll throw Robert in because he killed himself for Oliver. They all died being heroic.

 

The women; Shado died on her knees a victim - not fighting. Sara was shot on a rooftop  and fell on a dumpster not being a hero  Rebecca Merlyn and Ray's Anna victims of street crime. Moira was a hero for sacrificing herself for her children and Isabel died fighting against Nyssa.

 

All the men who died - died being heroic. All the women that died except for 2 died being victims.  That's the difference for me.

 

Okay, I get your point about dying as a hero vs victim.  I hadn't really noticed the circumstances of their deaths.  But how are you going to count Rebecca Merlyn and Anna's deaths, people we don't even see, and not count Robert Queen (someone we see) and Helena's fiance (same type of death as Rebecca or Anna)?  

[lemotomato]

Def not true. At least I didn't think that way. Alot of us just violently dislike her now that she's in Olicity because she's being written like a self-centred asshole.  IMO I find it hard to believe that even Felicity fans can't see it. It's the same thing they did with Laurel and with any woman that Ollie has been in a relationship with (except Huntress because she wasn't around long enough) they don't know how to write for women very well on this show and they seemed to be writing her fine when she was the tech girl with a crush but as a romantic lead she's exhibiting the exact same tendancies that Laurel did. I can't speak for the whole (non-Olicity or former Olicity fanbase (obviously) but at least for me that's what's happening here. 

 

I think if anything getting her away from Oliver and putting her with Roy/Ray whoever his name is (yiiii) will help return her to form. At least with R he calls her out on her shit and so she doesn't seem so untouchable as she has in Season 3 with this Oliver arc.

Like other Felicity fans on this board, I also have issues with how she's been written this season. My complaints mostly have to do with how she interacts with Ray, though. Not with how she's apparently been a "bitch" to Oliver. Can you give examples for when she's written as a self centered asshole? 

 

I do feel like Felicity's behavior is being judged for what she doesn't know, but the audience knows. She doesn't know she was Oliver's last thought, or that he dreamed about her, or that he didn't like that she went on a date with Ray. Oliver didn't tell her about any of it, and that's all on him. Heck, in early 3x09 she thought Oliver regretted kissing her. He told her that he loved her right before going to a battle to the death, and when he came back, he gave her a hug and went right back to business. 

 

I guess I don't understand why everyone's turning on her now, when I feel like Felicity hasn't changed much personality-wise aside from some overwrought reactions during extreme events. I can think of two times this season that she's been hard on Oliver-- in 3x02, when she tells him she doesn't want to die in the basement with him, and 3x12's "I don't want to be a woman you love". Both times she was extremely distraught, so I don't know if it's fair to fault her for saying something hurtful. At least she didn't throw anything at him. From episodes 3x01, 3x03-306 and 3x08-3x09 she was her usual capable self. I don't like some of her actions in 3x07, but again, that's more to do with her interactions with Ray than anything else. In 3x10 she was fine until presented with evidence of Oliver's death, In 3x11, she's mourning, so she acted out of character. (I don't like that she appeared to accept Ray's romantic overtures and helping Laurel lie). In 3x12, she's back to being her "take no bullshit from anyone" self until Oliver comes back from the dead. 

 

I do think it's a mistake to have Felicity start a relationship with Ray so soon after rejecting Oliver. First because it's not necessary to prolong the Olicity angst (they are more than proficient at cockblocking themselves without a third party in the mix), and also because I just want to see Felicity finally have a storyline that's not centered around a romantic interest, past (Cooper), present (Barry, Oliver) or future (Oliver, Ray).

[Password]

EBR smashed that scene to Lian Yu!!!! Oh my gosh that mm mm when Oliver stepped up to her. These two will kill me but EBR is just getting better and better. Wow. That entire scene was filled with "YAAAAAAAAS"!

I am so mad at Oliver...actually I'm not but I SO GET where Felicity is coming from.

As she said "mm mm" Oliver, "mm mm".

[Betweenthisandthat]

This was always my concern with Olicity, did it would do more damage to Felicity than good and I was absolutely right. Felicity the friend gets to be more of a full developed character, Felicity the love interest is in multiple love triangle, is all about Oliver, is all about being 'the girl who inspires'.

 

This has been my problem with Olicity too and my worry.  I won't argue whether or not it was right or wrong for Oliver to talk about teaming up with Malcolm because it confuses me.  The moral code of every character on this show confuses me and I try to not look too closely at it.  Felicity's moral code can be quite gray and then it can be like it was this week.  I don't think that is what led to this fight and the whole Malcolm plot is ridiculous anyway.  

 

Felicity had the same concerns about Malcolm, of course no one has told Laurel (or Thea) what role he really had in Sara's death.  But when Felicity voiced her concerns earlier in the episode, the team voted on it and her voice prevailed, Laurel found another solution.  

 

When Oliver returns, he decides unilaterally what he'll do, and therefore who the team will be aligning with, and Felicity has no real say in the matter.  If I think about it, Felicity's real struggle might be the powerlessness she has over what happens to her friends and what they decide to do.  Sara's death affected her a lot.  Oliver goes and "dies" and she's gone back and forth about whether this is all a suicide mission and if she wants to be there for that.  Oliver returns from the dead seeming to have not changed at all.  Felicity might have snapped at the wrong time, too soon after he returned, but he hasn't really given anyone chance to welcome him before he starts making battle plans. 

 

So we have a character who is trapped in this relationship with a character who is always gearing up for battle and she's either going to be consumed by that, became tortured and emotional about it, or occasionally assert her will.  She used to be able to confront and argue with Oliver as a friend and colleague but now it's mixed with romance and being a woman he loves and it turns into this twisted thing that is bringing her down.  

[SonofaBiscuit]

I think that the worst assholish thing that Felicity did this season is rig up the voice thing for Laurel to dupe her dad into thinking she was Sara. But that wasn't self-centered, as far as Felicity is concerned.  I can think of maybe one or two more things that I had problems with, but other than that, Felicity has been fine.  I'd say she's my favorite character on this show, I suppose, but she's not infallible.  If she does things I don't like, I'll call her out on them, but personally I thought that she was lovely in the last episode.  Like seriously, she and Diggle are the only two people making any fucking sense right now, and while I do love Oliver, I'm kind of waiting for all of this to come back and bite him in the ass.  

[Password]

Tbh I'd find it difficult to work with, let alone love someone who made the decision Oliver did. I'm surprised she hasn't packed her stuff and left. There's been ample reason to, not just because emotionally Oliver plays tennis. As a friend, I wouldn't even be able to DEAL with the decision he's made because of the reasons she's stated, and because Malcolm is a psychopathic murderer. Now Oliver wants to sit at his feet and learn. Nope.

I've been cool with Felicity this season too, except for the Ray crap. I won't even touch that nonsense.

Felicity was always a bright spot in the show, not just for viewers but for Oliver. It's what made them so attractive. Mr Dour-all-the-time smiled and listened to her. What's not to like? But now Felicity is crying every second episode because of serious emotional upheaval, there are perhaps 2 smiles either have had with each other since the premiere, she's been schlept off with that other vigilante to be because she's a baby sitter to all new in coming vigilantes. Her story this season is tears. And it's "mm mm". They went and took someone very light, and have tried to dim her shine to the utmost. And I just BET she'll start shining again with Ray. Whatever.

[Orion]

Okay, I get your point about dying as a hero vs victim.  I hadn't really noticed the circumstances of their deaths.  But how are you going to count Rebecca Merlyn and Anna's deaths, people we don't even see, and not count Robert Queen (someone we see) and Helena's fiance (same type of death as Rebecca or Anna)?  

 

Than remove Rebecca and Anna. Moira, Sara, Shado, and Isabel all died not fighting back.  And like someone else pointed out everyone who has come back from the dead has been male. Anyway you slice it they have treated the female characters deaths differently than the males. Women were passive in their deaths except for Moira. The men heroic and fighting.

 

Felicity was always a bright spot in the show, not just for viewers but for Oliver. It's what made them so attractive. Mr Dour-all-the-time smiled and listened to her. What's not to like? But now Felicity is crying every second episode because of serious emotional upheaval, there are perhaps 2 smiles either have had with each other since the premiere, she's been schlept off with that other vigilante to be because she's a baby sitter to all new in coming vigilantes. Her story this season is tears. And it's "mm mm". They went and took someone very light, and have tried to dim her shine to the utmost. And I just BET she'll start shining again with Ray. Whatever.

 

I agree with you that I'm exhausted of Felicity crying, EBR has had some of her best material and really grown as an actress this season because of it but I'm at the enough is enough point (I don't blame EBR or Felicity but the writers)

 

But here's where I think the problem is. After "Sara" the AV Club said this:

 

Where the episode finds itself on less certain ground is in its handling of Laurel and Felicity’s reactions. This is where Arrow has to do the best it can with the realities of asymmetrical character development: The show has one character who has a strong connection to Sara and one character who is fleshed-out enough to do some serious emotional heavy-lifting, but they aren’t the same person. Thus the weird situation where Felicity, who was never really that close to Sara, is the person most affected by her death, at least as an end in and of itself. After the first 10 or so minutes, Felicity becomes the focal point for the entire show’s grieving process, as the other characters’ anguish is subsumed into the episode’s narrative arc. It’s not that this is a bad decision: Felicity is easily the show’s most emotionally open character, and Emily Bett Rickards does a nice job selling the idea that her character wasn’t so much friends with Sara as she was in awe of her, and that Sara’s death is as much about the loss of innocence, of the sense of invulnerability, as it is the loss of a loved one.

 

The writers need a character that the audience can relate to their emotions. They need a character that be open enough to show the viewers how they want us to feel. It can't be Diggle, Oliver or Roy because its already been established in show that none of them are good talking about their feelings. It can't be Laurel because the audience in general does not relate to her and doesn't buy into a lot of her relationships with other characters. That leaves them with Felicity.

 

In an ideal world these emotional arcs would be spread out among all the characters but they can't do that on Arrow because they have done such a poor job of flushing out character develop. Felicity is left to be the emotional core of the show. Oliver disassociates,  Diggle is stoic, Roy thinks about his red hoodie?, Ray is to new, Laurel is too inconsistent, and the writers have removed everyone else that can act as the normal people in their emotions. Therefore the burden falls to Felicity. She's the one that cries for a dead friend or a failed relationship, she's the one that is scared when she and her mother are kidnapped, she's the character that rages when she's angry and she's the one that openly mourns Oliver. 

 

So as much as I want light Felicty back I don't think it's because the writers want to dim her light. I think this is happening for the same reason 90% of the stories this year are happening - plot contrivance. It's easier to assign the emotional heavy lifting to Felicity than it is to write scenes that lead the audience to feel things through what is shown instead of through sympathy for Felicity.  

[Password]

And that's sad. I think you raise very valid points especially about the audience not having an emotional connection to Laurel to really feel her pain. But I do think they've missed a spell with Diggle. Diggle might not be overtly emotional, but we are (mostly I think) invested in him. We wouldn't throw our toys out of the pram if Diggle did some heavy lifting too, case and point his scene with Laurel in ep 10 where he seemed a lost man. If anything the writers refusal to allow Digglicity to mourn together is their own fault. They make sense for days.

But I did take into account what AK said about trying to figure out what emotional turmoil they can put their characters through. I don't think he meant just Laurel and Oliver (though he mentioned them by name). I honestly think they're doing it to Felicity too, and whilst EBR is frankly killing it, it's tiring. Stop. This show is darker than Gotham, and Gotham just had a man choke out a woman.

I hope the writers have an idea about why they're making Felicity so emotionally wrought. Not just because of Olicity but because of HER. She's the leading Lady in her own life, and I really hope this will lead to good things for her.

[Betweenthisandthat]

The writers need a character that the audience can relate to their emotions.

 

I think making Felicity this character is why she's getting hate.  I don't have problems with Laurel that others have, and at the moment I relate more to her because she has her own story.  It might not be a well written story, but she's the hero of her own narrative and I appreciate that a lot.  However, I don't have to relate to a character to enjoy her story, and for the most part I'm not enjoying Felicity's story this season because she's not at the center of it and when she tries to be she gets criticism because she's supposed to be all things to all viewers.  I don't like the fantasy Felicity or this person that we're supposed to see ourselves in first and foremost.  I don't know what other viewers want and try not to assume about what they want to see, but I want to see Felicity be the star of her own life, not a support to Oliver or Ray.  If they could have her make choices that aren't about either of these men, I think she'd cry less and be more active and lighter a character.  

Edited February 6, 2015 by Betweenthisandthat

[Delphi]

Chuck Dixon said something in an interview about Oracle and the Bat family (and Felicity is very much their Oracle) that I think applies pretty well to the current dynamic of Team Arrow: "She's less morally conflicted than [the others]. She's very 'means to an end' oriented. She sees that sometimes you have to kill to save lives. She's not comfortable with that but accepts it. She would do anything to avoid using deadly force but, when push comes to shove, she'll drop the hammer." Oliver doesn't want to kill, but Felicity on the other hand well absolutely kill to protect the people she loves.

[jay741982]

Tbh I'd find it difficult to work with, let alone love someone who made the decision Oliver did. I'm surprised she hasn't packed her stuff and left. There's been ample reason to, not just because emotionally Oliver plays tennis. As a friend, I wouldn't even be able to DEAL with the decision he's made because of the reasons she's stated, and because Malcolm is a psychopathic murderer. Now Oliver wants to sit at his feet and learn. Nope.

I've been cool with Felicity this season too, except for the Ray crap. I won't even touch that nonsense.

Felicity was always a bright spot in the show, not just for viewers but for Oliver. It's what made them so attractive. Mr Dour-all-the-time smiled and listened to her. What's not to like? But now Felicity is crying every second episode because of serious emotional upheaval, there are perhaps 2 smiles either have had with each other since the premiere, she's been schlept off with that other vigilante to be because she's a baby sitter to all new in coming vigilantes. Her story this season is tears. And it's "mm mm". They went and took someone very light, and have tried to dim her shine to the utmost. And I just BET she'll start shining again with Ray. Whatever.

Yep cause God Forbid Boring Ray isnt being shoved down our throats and Raylicity is trying to be shoved down our throats too. MG will have her smiling with Ray never mind the fact that's he creepy he's not well liked and that she has way better chem with Oliver. VIEWERS WILL LOVE RAY I COMMAND IT!!

MG stupidly thinks their scenes are awesome and they have chem. Never mind he isolates Felicity and Ray in scenes together and Felicity is crying or upset in a lot of them. Now thanks to writers, I and others will be sickened cause she will only be smiling in scenes not Team Arrow related most likely makes me sick

[Password]

I like that Felicity will most likely be smiling. Heck if they did Ray better I probably wouldn't even mind it's him. But. It. Is. A smiling Felicity makes my heart warm. A smiling Felicity staring at Ray confuses the snot out of me.

[jay741982]

I like that Felicity will most likely be smiling. Heck if they did Ray better I probably wouldn't even mind it's him. But. It. Is. A smiling Felicity makes my heart warm. A smiling Felicity staring at Ray confuses the snot out of me.

I love a smiling Felicity just not at ol creepy lol. Doesn't have to be Oliver.

[kismet]

Felicity isn't breaking Oliver's heart. Oliver is breaking his own heart and Felicity's. She's not the one that is unwilling to try to be together despite their night job. She's not the one that is dangling maybes and saying she loves him while going off on suicide missions or saying, "nope, sorry not right now, maybe never."   All season long he's been slowly giving her hope with one hand and that snatching it away with the other. Death by a thousands cuts.  That doesn't even include what happened last year during the mansion scene where he presented her dreams to her on a silver platter with his right hand while sticking a syringe for a deception with his left. Yes he meant it, yes Oliver loves Felicity but everything so far has been his choice. His choice to date, his to stop, his choice to go to Ra's without trying to find another way, his choice to team up with Malcom - no discussion on other ways to handle it (like a team would do). And Felicity finally had enough - something she had every right to tell him.

 

Team up with a monster and loose your humanity, turn his back on everything that makes him Oliver and embrace the end result justifies the means. Ra's and Malcom turned their back on who the were. They became their missions. They are what Oliver will become if he turns his back and becomes the Arrow. The mission is everything and damn the consequences to get the victory. If being a woman he loves means he would team up with a monster that killed over 500 people to protect her - than she doesn't want that.

 

Felicity isn't just mad that Oliver won't love her the way she wants, she's pissed that he wants to go against ever thing he stood for; the ideals she  that she fought Roy, Laurel, Malcom,. and Diggle to uphold. As far as I'm concerned Oliver's lucky that she didn't smack his face and quit Team Arrow.

 

Either Felicity is going to be a sub character that stays in lane - is bright and sunny and supports Oliver all the time and become a Mary Sue or she's going to be a real person, one that gets angry, rages, cries, laughs, makes good choice and makes bad; because that what a real person does. 

 

As far as the male/female deaths. Robert Queen was in one episode alive, we never saw Michael Stanton (Helena's fiancé} so I don't count them. Yao Fei, Tommy, and Blood all got to die a heroes death; Yao Fei died after giving into Fryers to save Shado, Tommy died saving Laurel, Blood died because he stole the cure for Oliver, I'll throw Robert in because he killed himself for Oliver. They all died being heroic.

 

The women; Shado died on her knees a victim - not fighting. Sara was shot on a rooftop  and fell on a dumpster not being a hero  Rebecca Merlyn and Ray's Anna victims of street crime. Moira was a hero for sacrificing herself for her children and Isabel died fighting against Nyssa.

 

All the men who died - died being heroic. All the women that died except for 2 died being victims.  That's the difference for me.

Preach!!!  Well Said.

[Sakura12]

I didn't see the episode but the "I don't want to be the women you love" sounds about right to me. Oliver's love doesn't seem to mean that much, since he's going to work with the man that brainwashed his sister to kill his former lover. He's supposed to love them, but is like "Eh, I'll keep my sister in the dark about the monster that made her kill someone she knew and liked and forget all about my fellow survivor and lover, Sara." 

 

Also If Malcolm can't even defeat Sara on his own, how the hell is he going to teach Oliver to defeat Ra's al Ghul? 

 

Moira died with her hands behind her back. Yes, she gave her life for her children but she wasn't given the option to fight back. Isabel was really the only woman that got to fight before she died. 

[Danny Franks]

I didn't see the episode but the "I don't want to be the women you love" sounds about right to me. Oliver's love doesn't seem to mean that much, since he's going to work with the man that brainwashed his sister to kill his former lover. He's supposed to love them, but is like "Eh, I'll keep my sister in the dark about the monster that made her kill someone she knew and liked and forget all about my fellow survivor and lover, Sara." 

 

 

As far as I can tell, Oliver's love has always been plot driven. He seemed to be content to let Laurel move on for most of season 1, but then suddenly couldn't control himself at the end of the year, when the chance to bone her arose, just in time for Tommy to witness it. He suddenly loved Sara in season 2, so they could stick that relationship into the show to provide minor angst for Felicity and Laurel and stall anything happening with Felicity. He only seems to even remember Thea exists whenever it suits the plot ('Thea said she was leaving town. The whole city is now being overrun with Mirakuru infected thugs. Ah, I'm sure she got out fine, I won't call her or anything'). She goes from an afterthought to his number one priority whenever the plot requires it.

 

The only one that has grown even semi-organically is Felicity. And it was really nice watching it grow through the first two seasons. Now, it seems that once the writers actually started writing this quasi-couple, they fucked it all up, and Oliver's feelings for her are just as plot-driven as his feelings for any other woman. That kinda sucks.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Danny Franks

[statsgirl]

I think making Felicity this character is why she's getting hate.  I don't have problems with Laurel that others have, and at the moment I relate more to her because she has her own story.  It might not be a well written story, but she's the hero of her own narrative and I appreciate that a lot.   I want to see Felicity be the star of her own life, not a support to Oliver or Ray.  If they could have her make choices that aren't about either of these men, I think she'd cry less and be more active and lighter a character.  

 

I think they are making her the star of her own life and now that she's no longer a 100% Oliver cheer-leader and is making choices for herself, that's when the hate comes.  She's working for Ray Palmer because she didn't want to die in the lair with Oliver, she left Team Arrow (so did Diggle but Felicity's getting the hate) and now she's disagreeing with Oliver after everything he went through.  Even though she's still as much a part of Team Arrow as she ever was, people aren't happy because she's stepped out from Oliver's shadow and making decisions about her own life and how she wants to live it.

 

It's so funny to me how differently people can see the same scene. I was very surprised to see the reunion described as beautiful; I thought it was just sad from the beginning. She's all set for the reunion the (we?) Olicity shippers we anticipating: Oliver told her, for the first time in a straightforward way, that he loves her. Surely, when he comes back, he'll be so happy to see her! And yet when, after several hours of being back in town, he finally sees the "woman he loves," he merely tolerates her too-tight embrace, says that HE's fine, and, same-old same-old, looks past her to talk to the guys about business. OUCH. You can just barely see in the background how quickly crestfallen Felicity looks.

What has finally hit home for me is that Oliver's angst isn't about Felicity or her safety; it's for himself. He's worried HE'll be distracted by her; even in his dream, HE's the one facing death.

Up to the point of Felicity's speech, it really was all about Oliver, what he wanted vs what he was willing to give her.  (It's noteworthy that in his dream, he wants to give up everything and stay with Felicity. In his life, he gives her up and keeps everything else.)

 

Felicity had dreams when he was gone but when he got back, it was the same old thing again.  No surprise she finally gave up on him and decided to live her life on her own terms.

 

When Oliver returns, he decides unilaterally what he'll do, and therefore who the team will be aligning with, and Felicity has no real say in the matter.  If I think about it, Felicity's real struggle might be the powerlessness she has over what happens to her friends and what they decide to do. 

I think it was not powerlessness but disenchantment with Oliver that did it.  Although being powerless in his decisions may have contributed.

 

Felicity signed on to find Walter but stayed for Oliver. She bought into his crusade, his dreams, his vision, his nobility of purpose. When he 'died' she stayed on for that.  Her line that "There is no universe in which I can see Oliver agreeing to to work with Malcolm Merlyn" shows her vision of who Oliver is.  And when he comes back and his first action is to sign on with Malcolm, her vision of Oliver is crushed.    This isn't the man she thought he was, this isn't the man she dreamed of being her lover.  Everyone talks about how hurt Oliver must have been in that scene, including SA, but Felicity must have been very hurt too.

 

Anyway you slice it they have treated the female characters deaths differently than the males. Women were passive in their deaths except for Moira. The men heroic and fighting.

I'd argue that Moira was passive in her death too because she didn't really have a choice. It was her or Thea, but Slade was going to execute one of them. It's not like Moira had a gun or even a sword and could fight back like Oliver, Slade or Malcolm did, or had any say at all except whether it was going to be her or Thea who he was going to kill.

Edited February 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[XtremeOne1]

I think they are making her the star of her own life and now that she's no longer a 100% Oliver cheer-leader and is making choices for herself, that's when the hate comes.  She's working for Ray Palmer because she didn't want to die in the lair with Oliver, she left Team Arrow (so did Diggle but Felicity's getting the hate) and now she's disagreeing with Oliver after everything he went through.  Even though she's still as much a part of Team Arrow as she ever was, people aren't happy because she's stepped out from Oliver's shadow and making decisions about her own life and how she wants to live it.

 

 

But the thing is, she's coming to be Ray's cheerleader now, be Ray's tiny voice saying, "But good, don't dangerous things, I'll inspire you!" 

 

That's not the star of her own story. She's part of his origin story and it's insulting to the character. Why not have her be involved in her own journey or maybe in Thea or Laurel's. I think there is a huge difference between this storyline between a male-female relationship a female-female relationship. It could have been a great opportunity for the show to give us a female friendship, for Felicity to take Laurel under her wing and her temper her revenge and put her on a more heroic path during those early days. Sure, she can't train her how to fight but who better to teach 'there is more to heroing than fighting' than someone who is brain over brawn? 

 

But instead she gets shuttered off into another relationship, with someone who is using her for her brain, but there is also the creepy stalker relationship and the fact that, in the end, they won't be equals. I think as Birds of Prey showed, despite all the kicking and punching Black Canary did, it never made her a better hero than Oracle. It made them equals. But I don't have faith this show will do that for Ray and Felicity. In fact, I predict Ray saving Felicity's life twice and her saying, "Let me inspire you to be a better man while I stay exactly the same!"

[statsgirl]

I admit I have fears about Felicity's relationship with Ray.  I wish they would leave it platonic, it would be great for Felicity to mentor Ray in how to be a superhero as Oliver mentored Roy.  To try to help him avoid the mistakes Oliver is making, to be his Diggle to Ray's Oliver.  Yes, they could reduce her to Ray's cheerleader. I hope they don't but it all depends on how the writers do their scenes.

 

I liked Laurel's friendship with Joanna.  I loved Felicity's friendship with Sara, and now with Caitlin and hopefully Lyla.  I am against a Felicity/Laurel friendship because they are too different; these woman would never be friends in the real world unless they were the only people left on a desert island and then Laurel would still be snapping at Felicity.  Felicity can't take Laurel under her wing because Laurel refuses to be there; as Laurel said "Because I've been paying attention", dismissing Felicity out of hand. Let Oliver be the one to fight that battle with Laurel.

[tv echo]

I think part of the problem is that we never got to see the five months of 'foreplay' during last year's hiatus that led up to Oliver asking Felicity out on a date in 301.  Those months when the team was clicking on all cylinders probably included lots of Oliver & Felicity interactions - affectionate touches, bantering, light flirting, maybe deep conversations - that strengthened their connection.  That time was probably the happiest that Felicity's ever been in her entire life.  Even though her professional job was as an EA (her cover), she was still using her IT skills to do something meaningful and she was part of a noble cause. 

 

When Oliver finally asked her out, I think her surprise was due to the timing and not because he asked her out at all.  She's come a long way from the season 1 Felicity who had a crush on Oliver and never expected him to look at her that way.  Now she knows she's a valued member of Team Arrow, has literally risked her life to save the city, and is equal to Oliver.  She knows him so well (up until 312) that I think she knew their relationship was headed in a direction she welcomed. 

 

That's what makes this season of slowly crushed hopes so emotionally upsetting to Felicity.  But we only see the unhappy and now angry Felicity, lashing out at Oliver.  We didn't see the happy Felicity with Oliver.

 

Without seeing the highs of last summer's O/F interactions, we can't fully comprehend the lows that she's suffering now.

Edited February 7, 2015 by tv echo

[Chaser]

Its cool tho! You can buy the 2.5 comic books! All. Better. Now.

[tv echo]

I wish we had a mini-season of TV episodes covering last year's hiatus - Every week we'd see Team Arrow going after a bad guy, having a few missteps, but ultimately succeeding at the end of each episode.  There'd also be moments of fun bantering and moments of supporting each other.

 

Oh wait... that's The Flash, isn't it?

[XtremeOne1]

I admit I have fears about Felicity's relationship with Ray.  I wish they would leave it platonic, it would be great for Felicity to mentor Ray in how to be a superhero as Oliver mentored Roy.  To try to help him avoid the mistakes Oliver is making, to be his Diggle to Ray's Oliver.  Yes, they could reduce her to Ray's cheerleader. I hope they don't but it all depends on how the writers do their scenes.

 

I liked Laurel's friendship with Joanna.  I loved Felicity's friendship with Sara, and now with Caitlin and hopefully Lyla.  I am against a Felicity/Laurel friendship because they are too different; these woman would never be friends in the real world unless they were the only people left on a desert island and then Laurel would still be snapping at Felicity.  Felicity can't take Laurel under her wing because Laurel refuses to be there; as Laurel said "Because I've been paying attention", dismissing Felicity out of hand. Let Oliver be the one to fight that battle with Laurel.

 

I'm sorry but would any of these characters be friends in real life if not for these circumstances? You think even a changed Oliver would ever have made the time of day for Felicity if they weren't brought together? You think Diggle and Felicity have anything in common? Diggle and Roy? Sara and Felicity(who I'm sorry, didn't have much of a friendship that I can remember. They were part of the same team, that's all).  

 

It's about them coming to know each other, figuring out a way to work around their difference. If we were only going by "who'd be friends in real life" then we'd have Barry and Felicity and that's it.

[AyChihuahua]

The question is not whether they would be friends in real life, it's whether, once they're brought together in the show's universe, they have any particular reason for an actual friendship.  There was a whole discussion about this on these boards awhile ago, but basically, as a woman, it bothers the heck out of me that women are assumed to have to be friends with other women.  Professional colleagues is one thing, friends is entirely another.  When guys work together there's no assumption that they have to become friends with each other.  The characters of Felicity and Laurel, once brought together in show, have nothing other than professional interests and Oliver in common.  Bonding over Oliver would be gross.  So that leaves professional interests, which may or may not lead to friendship.  Heck, at this point they may not even have professional interests in common if Felicity has quit the team.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Considering the fact that Felicity just did the most assholish thing she's possibly ever done on this show all for the sake of perpetuating Laurel's "Sara's alive" ruse, nah, I don't need these two women to be friends.  I see what Laurel can gain from a friendship, but I shudder to think just how much damage the relationship would do to Felicity's character. 

[statsgirl]

If the measure of 'would they be friends' is how much damage must you do to one of the characters to make it look like there is a friendship with the other, for Felicity it's already been substantial.

 

The question is not whether they would be friends in real life, it's whether, once they're brought together in the show's universe, they have any particular reason for an actual friendship. 

That's a good way of putting it. Oliver and Diggle  would have been unlikely to become close to each other in real life but once the show made Diggle Oliver's bodyguard, they found out that they complemented each other and Diggle sign on to protect Oliver's soul and gradually they become like brothers.   So Same with Oliver and Roy.  Sometimes, unless you're forced together in some special circumstances, you miss out on knowing people who you could be friends with.

 

I can't see Felicity and Laurel as friends because they are like oil and water.  They can work together and support each other, and they could have socialized when Oliver and Tommy brought them together as couples but they are too different as people to want to be each other's BFFs.  I think Thea would be more likely to be friends with Laurel than with Felicity.  They come from similar backgrounds (although Thea was richer) and probably the same prep school, and Thea is more self-centered like Laurel is.

 

I do think Felicity and Sara were friends, they were kind to each and supported each other.  Sara taught Felicity self-defense when Oliver refused to teach her and Felicity saw Sara for who she was, not the killer she saw herself as and even supported her relationship with the guy Felicity herself was crushing on.  If Sara and Laurel hadn't been sisters, I don't think they would have been friends.  Come to think of it, they weren't particularly good friends even then..

Edited February 8, 2015 by statsgirl

[BkWurm1]

They went and took someone very light, and have tried to dim her shine to the utmost. And I just BET she'll start shining again with Ray. Whatever.

 

I suspect that she will start shining a little brighter but I'm not crediting Ray with that.  I see it as part of her reclaiming her life.  She claimed not to be waiting around for Oliver but while she was trying to move forward, she was still very much emotionally tethered to him.  I don't thinks she's stopped feeling what she's felt for him all along but by him completely disillusioning her as to who he is and what he stands for, I think she now feels like there is noting for her to be waiting around for no matter what she feels.  I also think that thought process is spurred on by an awful lot of hurt and anger, not to mention a good dose of fear, but that cocktail has been brewed strong enough to keep her not looking back for quite some time. 

 

No, she's not going to quit the team, but right now she's found her emotional distance and Felicity is not one to live in the dark, she grabs the light through sheer force of will.  After round one of Oliver's idiocy and Sara's death she slowly had been coming back to herself and I would expect her to do so even faster this time around and chance are Ray will reap some benefits especially since he's her Oliver do-over at least in the hero-ing department.   

 

 

I am against a Felicity/Laurel friendship because they are too different; these woman would never be friends in the real world unless they were the only people left on a desert island and then Laurel would still be snapping at Felicity.

 

I suspect what we are going to see is that while Felicity and Laurel will never be friends, Felicity is going to (likely already does) view her as family.  Laurel may always be the prickly child lashing out or not thinking things through but since she's part of Team Arrow  (I'd say she was mostly adjacent to the team as the in the know ADA that only interacted with Oliver but got promoted as soon as Sara died) Laurel is going to get Felicity's support and loyalty and assistance not because Laurel and Felicity are kindred spirits or share interests or even like being around one another but because she's family now.  And you don't get to chose your family.    

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

 

This topic has be going off the rails for a while now, I had hoped it would self course correct but that has not happened, therefore;

 

If you want to discuss Felicity's relationships with/to other characters; please post in the Relationship Topic. I'm going to be tougher on misplaced posts from here on out by either moving or deleting.

 

You have been warned.

 

Thank you.

[BkWurm1]

Taken from Behind the Mask

 

I just don't think there was any chance of her ever becoming Oracle. That will always be Barbara Gordon. I feel like calling episode 305 "Oracle" was just the EP's thinking they were being clever because Felicity has an 'Oracle-like' role on Arrow.

 

They've of course now announced they are going to use Barbara Gordon in her Oracle incarnation for the new proposed Titians show but after the comics rebooted things and put Barbara Gordon back as Batgirl (had an operation if I remember correctly) and the comics people were happy with where she was, it didn't seem that crazy that the comic universe might want to designate a new cyber expert and why not anoint Felicity Smoak?   

 

The thing that never really made sense for any future character that might take on the title of Oracle, is why would they have to then also be in a wheelchair?  That requirement only made sense as a reason why a masked hero out on the streets would hole up in a clocktower and monitor everything from afar.  Felicity was already not on the streets and has no ambitions to take boxing lessons from Ted Grant so I think she was always safe from the broken back. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by BkWurm1

[wonderwall]

Continuing the discussion about Felicity staying seated: 

 

Felicity didn't stand up for Malcolm just like how Oliver wouldn't kneel to Ra's.

 

They're both strong characters. And I loved that parallel (even though I'm 100% sure it was unintentional). 

 

Anyways, to go deeper into Felicity sitting down, it's usually it's polite for one to stand up when someone enters the room. In this case, Felicity was saying "screw etiquette, this man doesn't deserve it". It gave her a position of power, a position which showed that she can't be easily rattled or influenced by Malcolm and I think he knew that. I loved that moment :)

[BkWurm1]

Anyways, to go deeper into Felicity sitting down, it's usually it's polite for one to stand up when someone enters the room. In this case, Felicity was saying "screw etiquette, this man doesn't deserve it". It gave her a position of power, a position which showed that she can't be easily rattled or influenced by Malcolm and I think he knew that. I loved that moment :)

 

Malcolm is a legitimate threat.  He's probably used to people who know what he is capable of coming to attention, at least moving to a position of defense or to do something that showed their acknowledging his danger and power.  I loved she didn't bow to etiquette but I loved even more the message that she sent by staying seated.  "I am not afraid of you."   That's what I heard/saw. 

[olicityfan25]

Felicity staying in her chair was epic. He came into her place of work. The only one who should be standing is Malcolm.  Also it was funny how he was mainly talking to her even though there were 3 other people.

[jay741982]

Felicity staying in her chair was epic. He came into her place of work. The only one who should be standing is Malcolm.  Also it was funny how he was mainly talking to her even though there were 3 other people.

It was Epic! He was mainly talking to her cause he knew who was running things LOL. She looked like a BOSS HBIC lol

[CabotCove]

think they are making her the star of her own life and now that she's no longer a 100% Oliver cheer-leader and is making choices for herself, that's when the hate comes.  She's working for Ray Palmer because she didn't want to die in the lair with Oliver, she left Team Arrow (so did Diggle but Felicity's getting the hate) and now she's disagreeing with Oliver after everything he went through.  Even though she's still as much a part of Team Arrow as she ever was, people aren't happy because she's stepped out from Oliver's shadow and making decisions about her own life and how she wants to live it.

 

Exactly.  Sounds like she is becoming like other female characters in the show: Liberated. Oh how much the hate starts to pour in.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Conell

[Carrie Ann]

Guys. We have to talk about Felicity.

 

I'm gonna personally skip anything to do with her interactions with Oliver and just focus on how the show is twisting her for Laurel. For LAUREL. Not for Ray or to stall Olicity. But for Laurel.

 

Guys. She took voice recordings of Sara--procured from who knows where? Voicemails? Home video of her, before the Gambit? And made a voice modulator for Laurel to use to fool her father into believing his beloved baby daughter was still alive. Felicity did that. Without hesitation. Without regret, that we've seen. She did that.

 

Tonight, she basically said Sara was a being of darkness, who was sort of an accidental hero, but not out there for the right reasons. Not as good as Heavenly Laurel, Full of Light. Felicity said that. About her friend. A woman she loved, who saved her life, whose life she saved. Who went out to protect women on the streets and went after the men who hurt them just because she thought it was wrong. Who took Sin under her wing because she was alone too. Sara believed she didn't have the light inside her, but she did. That was the point. She didn't believe it about herself, but it was clear to anyone else around her that she had demons but was still full of goodness. Felicity of all people should have seen that, but apparently she thinks Sara was just a lost cause all along, and Laurel has a real chance to improve on the original.

 

I said this earlier in the season, but it is very clear to me now. There is a limit of how many times you can claim out-of-character before you just accept that the character isn't the same anymore. And I've reached that limit. It's not just these two things--I've been unhappy with many things related to Felicity this season. But this Sara bullshit is what's put me over the edge. If I thought, for even a moment, that it was intentional--that the writers see this as wrong, and that there is a lesson coming, it would mitigate it. I like my characters to be flawed, but you know, those flaws have to be recognized as such. And that's not what's happening here. They think Felicity is perfect as she is, that she is bulletproof, and so they are using her to prop their two biggest failure characters. And in the process, they've completely sold her out, and I have no interest in what they do with her until at least 318.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Duke Silver]

^^^ Re:  Felicity propping-up Laurel.  I knew this was coming.  :vomit:

[CabotCove]

Guys. We have to talk about Felicity.

I'm gonna personally skip anything to do with her interactions with Oliver and just focus on how the show is twisting her for Laurel. For LAUREL. Not for Ray or to stall Olicity. But for Laurel.

How is talking about Felicity in relation to Laurel different from talking about her in relation to Oliver or any other person?. Its all relationship thread talk.

Agree this thread should be more about Felicity as a character, however that can be achieved.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Conell

[Carrie Ann]

That's an argument of semantics. I'm talking about decisions Felicity made, in the orbit of Laurel, not in her relationship with Laurel. Better? I don't think it's possible to talk about a character, specifically, without talking about how they interact with the other characters.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[kismet]

Well I think the problem maybe that Felicity this season is less of a character and more of a prop. She has her moments and her speeches. But a lot of what made her a great & relatable character is now mucked up in her duties making other characters succeed. Seriously, she's gotten a lot of screen time, but outside of episode 5, how much of the screen time has been soley about her? Very little. I have a bias and believe her relationship w/ Oliver is critical to both of their characters development & happiness. So I do tend to not be as upset if her time is spent helping him find his light or be his emotional center, however you want to phrase it. And I am proud of how they handled her confidence regarding their relationship and approaching him on a more equal partnership than previous seasons. But every other plot has been to prop Ray, Roy & Laurel. So how do you talk about her character if its inextricable linked to her propping the others? They even put a lid on her friendship with Diggle, we can't even see them jokingly bantering anymore, that became a distraction from her mission to make Laurel & Ray achieve their "rightful" place on the show.

Edited February 12, 2015 by kismet

[statsgirl]

Part of the problem is that they thought Felicity was bullet proof so they could use her to prop any character or storyline they were currently pushing  Hopefully they've realized their mistake after Canaries.

 

I think the real Felicity is down there somewhere, and she should emerge again around about the game-changing 18th episode.  (Not a spoiler because MG uses 'game-changer' as he uses 'epic' and "as a drunk uses a lamp post, for support rather than illumination."*)  Maybe then the Felicity we know will be back and we can talk about who she is again.

 

 

*Andrew Lang

[Actionmage]

Note to producers: Felicity is not the Awesome Fairy flitting around to other characters with her Thumb-drive of Awesomeness  in order to confer Awesomeness onto them. Felicity is awesome and it's not transferable. Dig and Ollie are awesome too, so that is why they worked as a team. Get back to that, stat!

[fantique]

Coming out and saying it, writers. I love Felicity because she is not perfect. Because her happiness and her strength was not conferred to her by the Heavens as she was born as a being of light and fluffiness. She had choice and she decided that she would be positive. She decided that her life should have a purpose and that she deserves happiness and that she has the rights to have terms. There are lines she has carefully drawn and crossing them is no fucking joke. She can and has done wrong and I am ok with it because she's a human being. The Felicity I signed up for is someone who knows her strength, knows what she wants and MOST IMPORTANTLY knows what she can and can't give up. I was so happy because I thought that the writers understood why we like Felicity after her episode. Not because she is undoubtably string and has no cracks, but because she knows being weak is being human and that what matters is persevering. The blubbering and the crying this season has been taxing but at least in 305, I liked it because Felicity is ok with showing emotional pain and she doesn't have to have nerves of steel to make me appreciate her? I am so disappointed because I thought I had dodged the Olicity bullet threatening Felicity's character and sincerely believed the writers understood her appeal. I guess not.

 

This Laurel situation hurts because Felicity just said something awful about someone whose death was instrumental in her making changes in her life. Someone she looked up to and took a bullet for, someone to whom she confided in about not having found a place in the world. A disparaging comment about someone who was her surrogate family, that is too shocking for words. All they needed to do was exclude that "light" metaphor and it would have been perfect. It would made clear for me why these two women's dynamic can work. They relate on being someone who wants to do more and feels less powerful than their peers in a certain domain and Laurel fighting with them when Oliver was gone made her accept her as part of the team. Instead we got Felicity saying Sara was the poor man version of Laurel and trading in for the new BC because of... reasons?

 

I said I could take a lot from this show, all they have to do is not fuck up Felicity. How hard is that not to freaking do? Huh? I have taken a lot:

• Felicity being apparently shallow and seeing Ray "in a new light" after seeing him doing the Salmon Ladder version Light.
• Her being ok with tricking poor Lance into thinking his daughter is still here
• Being ok with jumping to conclusions and throwing Roy under the bus for Sara's murder
• Telling Laurel to freaking fight when she is a liability on the field for her other teammates

 

Now they want to shove this in my face? Her basically solely existing to justify Ray and Laurel's presence in this fucking show? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I am going back to taking a break. I will check back in at the end and decided if this is my last year being an Arrowhead, because I am not here for that. I adore SA/EBR/DR, I really do, but I don't know if I can stay even for them when the writers are pissing on me and telling me it's raining. I refuse to be complicit in this insulting storyline any further.

Edited February 13, 2015 by fantique

[CabotCove]

Seriously, she's gotten a lot of screen time, but outside of episode 5, how much of the screen time has been soley about her? Very little.

True she had only one centric episode this season so far, I do think she is due for another or 2. Some of the screentime has gone to other characters, but she is also involved and benefits from time spend on friendships, partnerships, other relationships with others, things like that.

I have a bias and believe her relationship w/ Oliver is critical to both of their characters development & happiness. So I do tend to not be as upset if her time is spent helping him find his light or be his emotional center, however you want to phrase it. And I am proud of how they handled her confidence regarding their relationship and approaching him on a more equal partnership than previous seasons.

Well in your own words you do say you have a bias there, I won't knock your preference because we all have different things we want to see. I just think whether its called helping or propping, it is pretty much the same thing she is doing for those characters except Oliver is the leading character. She is not doing anything she wasnt really doing before, except interact with more people. Its not like its one way either, she does get the "props" too or did. I just don't see her going back to being 'all about Oliver', she has grown and evolved beyond that, the way i see it. Like you pointed out she doesn't exist in a vacuum.

But every other plot has been to prop Ray, Roy & Laurel. So how do you talk about her character if its inextricable linked to her propping the other characters

Same way when it was/ its Oliver?

E.g she still wears clothes, have funny/interesting quotes, does her jobs... That could be some topics of discussion.

That's an argument of semantics. I'm talking about decisions Felicity made, in the orbit of Laurel, not in her relationship with Laurel. Better? I don't think it's possible to talk about a character, specifically, without talking about how they interact with the other characters.

Better. Yeah its definately tricky alright. Edited February 13, 2015 by Conell

[statsgirl]

True she had only one centric episode this season so far, I do think she is due for another or 2. Some of the screentime has gone to other characters, but she is also involved and benefits from time spend on friendships, partnerships, other relationships with others, things like that.

I don't think the EPs have any intention of giving Felicity another episode about her unless they get into her father next season.  For them, her functions are

1.  humor  (not so much of that this year)

2.  tech for Oliver

3. t ech for Ray and getting him into his suit

4.  telling Laurel to keep being the BC because she's so special so that people don't complain there are no female friendships on the show.

 

Numbers 2, 3 and 4 are about her relationships with other people and if we talk about that, it belongs in the relationships thread.

 

I define propping as 'acting out of character to make another character look better or to push his/her storyline'. There has been far too much of that for Felicity (and Diggle) this season.

 

 

E.g she still wears clothes, have funny/interesting quotes, does her jobs... That could be some topics of discussion.

Just me, but I find talking about clothes boring.  I'd rather talk about ideas and interactions.

How she does her jobs is connected to Oliver and Ray again because she appears to have no life outside the Arrow cave and Palmer Industries.

[Carrie Ann]

E.g she still wears clothes, have funny/interesting quotes, does her jobs... That could be some topics of discussion.

Better. Yeah its definately tricky alright.

 

My understanding is that we can talk about all manner of things Felicity-centric here as long as it's not solely on a topic that clearly belongs in another thread. If the mods have a problem with the content of our posts, they will move them, and you are free to hit the "report" button on a post you think is out of place, and a mod will decide. But I don't think we need to continue to discuss what types of posts belong here.

 

Anyway. I don't believe there will be another Felicity-centric episode this season, which is fine with me. Diggle didn't even get a full episode

--he gets a half-episode for 317.

I would settle for some episodes where she is central to the main story, without Ray, but I suspect we're stuck with him until the end of the season at least, which means she will be attached to his story through that time. I hope the writers take a look at some of the reactions from viewers this season as they write the last few episodes.

[BkWurm1]

Guys. We have to talk about Felicity.

Guys. She took voice recordings of Sara--procured from who knows where? Voicemails? Home video of her, before the Gambit? And made a voice modulator for Laurel to use to fool her father into believing his beloved baby daughter was still alive. Felicity did that. Without hesitation. Without regret, that we've seen. She did that.

Tonight, she basically said Sara was a being of darkness, who was sort of an accidental hero, but not out there for the right reasons. Not as good as Heavenly Laurel, Full of Light. Felicity said that. About her friend should have seen that, but apparently she thinks Sara was just a lost cause all along, and Laurel has a real chance to improve on the original.

 

-While this post involves that scene between Felicity and Laurel, I’m really only looking at what Felicity’s intent and reasoning was behind what she said, not her relationships so much.- 

 

This is the specific dialogue between Felicity and Laurel:

 

F:  “How are you feeling?”

 

L:  When Zytle hit me with Vertigo I saw Sara.  She was alive.  And she was calling me a fraud.  I was crazy to think I was fit to wear to wear Sara’s jacket, much less follow in her footsteps.”

 

F:  “You’re right.  I hope I’m not out of line here but I think Sara wore her mask just as much to hide her demons as she did to help people.  And I don’t’ see that in you.  You have a light inside of you that Sara never had so…maybe you should stop trying to be Sara and just be yourself. "

 

This is a post in defense of Felicity but just having to type out the light line made me ragey.  More on that later.

 

I don’t think that Felicity was saying that Sara was without any light or an accidental hero or not there for the right reasons nor do I think she was saying that Laurel was coming from so much better a place or could be somehow better than Sara.  I think it was a hackneyed way of trying to make Laurel understand she can’t walk in Sara’s footsteps because she didn’t walk Sara’s life.

 

Felicity says that Sara wore her mask as much to hide her demons as she did to help people and I think that was true but that doesn’t IMO detract from what Sara did or how Felicity felt about her. 

 

Sara had a dark past that pushed her to defend the defenseless, likely as much because of what happened to her as by what she was forced into doing.  She chose to put her life on the line to save others from the things the no one was able to save her from.  Helping others wasn’t her trying to even the scales or absolve her past (she didn’t think that was possible.)  She helped because she felt it was the right thing to do.  She was shaped by that darkness but it wasn’t a hindrance to her being a hero, it is what compelled her forward as a hero.  But Laurel can’t come from the same place. 

 

Felicity says she doesn’t see the same thing in Laurel and I agree.  I can’t credit the suffering or issues Laurel has had with being a strong enough motivator to be the reason why she would continue to go out and fight.  Any of her brushes with “darkness” aren’t a strong enough base for her to be pushed forward from within. So we have Felicity saying she doesn’t see the reason Laurel puts on the mask as the same as why Sara did and again I think that’s valid because Laurel doesn’t have the life experience to draw from.  That belonged to Sara and Laurel can’t follow in Sara’s footsteps, she has to find her own reasons and stop trying to copy Sara. 

 

Now for “You have a light inside of you that Sara never had”  It’s a crap line and I blame the writers more than I hold Felicity accountable and I’ll get into that soon.  Laurel isn’t someone filled with a wondrous light but she does lack the darkness Sara had that is the very thing that she channeled into her mask to create good.  That is the only context that Laurel has any more light than Sara. So Felicity then tells Laurel basically to find her own reason to keep wearing a mask and also that doing so is ok. 

 

Personally I think Felicity offering any moral support or encouragement  is stupid since I think Laurel putting on a mask is stupid but Felicity right now is all about not taking away anyone’s right to make their own choices.  Not surprising since that is exactly what Oliver had been doing to her all year.  So while I think it a poor choice to back Laurel, I understand her reasons and I truly don’t think Felicity meant anything insulting or denigrating to Sara or what she accomplished and I think we have the support and context of the rest of the season ( and before) to back that up. 

 

Felicity near idolized Sara.  She admired and respected her.  She didn’t judge her for her past.  She mourned her – still mourns her, Sara’s death influenced her life, she relentlessly kept looking for Sara’s killer when no one else was and she followed the evidence no matter where it led, and is IMO the one still honoring Sara’s memory the most by her stand against working for Malcolm.  Every shred of evidence tells me that Felicity would never intentionally insult Sara.   (*I’ll bring up the fake Sara voice in a moment.)

 

I also don’t think we have any reason to accept that Felicity would feel that Laurel is going to be a better version of Sara.  Again, I blame a crap line for the thing about the light because the rest of Felicity’s message isn’t much different than what she said before - that living up to Sara’s legacy  couldn’t be the motivator for what Laurel was doing.  It seems that again Felicity is telling Laurel to stop trying to be Sara- cause she can’t but she can be herself and that might be enough (Yeah, agree to disagree Ms. Smoak)  In 3.11 Felicity let Laurel off the hook in trying to be as good as Sara and this week she’s basically doing the same thing.   

Sara’s reason’s aren’t Laurel’s, they can’t be and Laurel needs to stop comparing herself to Sara if she hopes to keep going (again, please Stop Laurel, please)  That’s the only message I’m willing to accept. 

 

I’m coming out and saying it, writers. I love Felicity because she is not perfect. Because her happiness and her strength was not conferred to her by the Heavens as she was born as a being of light and fluffiness. She had choice and she decided that she would be positive. She decided that her life should have a purpose and that she deserves happiness and that she has the rights to have terms. There are lines she has carefully drawn and crossing them is no fucking joke. She can and has done wrong and I am ok with it because she's a human being.

[...]

I said I could take a lot from this show, all they have to do is not fuck up Felicity. How hard is that not to freaking do? Huh? I have taken a lot:

• Felicity being apparently shallow and seeing Ray "in a new light" after seeing him doing the Salmon Ladder version Light.

• Her being ok with tricking poor Lance into thinking his daughter is still here

• Being ok with jumping to conclusions and throwing Roy under the bus for Sara's murder

• Telling Laurel to freaking fight when she is a liability on the field for her other teammates

 

About faking Sara’s voice.  Felicity is not perfect and one of her flaws IMO is doing what she can do sometimes without thinking if she SHOULD do it.  Like that over the top virus she wrote in college.  I have to believe that Laurel had some reason why she felt she had to talk to her dad as Sara and Felicity made it happen.  I also think we saw that she felt the weight of what she’d done while Laurel was using it.  Doesn’t change anything and I don’t think either of them should have done it, but I don’t’ think it was done with any malice toward Sara’s memory. 

 

I also didn’t see Felicity’s suggesting Roy killed Sara as throwing him under that bus.  She did accept that he could be the killer pretty fast but she made no moves to suggest that she was writing him off or wanted to cut him loose.  I saw it more as her looking at the evidence in a very detached and logical way.  It wasn’t an emotional accusation, she was looking at the evidence and lining it up and she was quick to point where it lined up but again, no malice or agenda, just an open mind in the search for Sara’s killer, even willing to consider people she thinks of as a friend. 

 

Anyway, that’s it for now.  To anyone that managed to read this whole thing a special bag of Malcolm’s magic herbs, I hear they provide a nice mindwipe afterwards, surely we could all use some time off from worrying over this show.

Edited February 13, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Guest]

The sad thing is, this whole issue with Felicity saying what she did about Sara could have been solved with just a small adjustment of dialogue. Instead of "Sara doesn't have a light inside her" she could have said "Sara doesn't have the same light inside that you have because she went through so much and she struggled with that," or perhaps any other line that didn't reference that stupid light metaphor in the first place. It's just the fact that it came across as knocking Sara down to build Laurel up when it just wasn't needed. 

 

But that's shit writing for you.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Guest

[Password]

I think I'm about to be a dick. When has Felicity not stood up to Oliver?

I'm trying to think when Oliver really did something STUPID and Felicity didn't tell him. Going to the Bratva (was it?) in the Suicide Squad ep? Not chewing his ass out for using her as bait? I'm honestly thinking, can someone help me? Perhaps I misunderstood MG's quote.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Limbo

[Delphi]

I'm rewatching season one and Felicity always stands up to Oliver. In Dodger, right after she joins team, Oliver shouts at her and comes at her very aggressively and she stood up to him.

He assumed she thought she messed up by getting in his way and the sass with which she said, "no, by working with you" was so hardcore. And Dig is just smirking at her badassery.

Epic.

Then five seconds later Ollie runs to felicity to apologize.